PTI - LIVE With Great Sports Debates!

Pete, of Great Sports Debates joins me LIVE - Is "Rangz Culture" ruining sports, or valuing Championships? - Who would you REALLY rather be? Draymond or Barkley? - NFL QB's... We go ALL OVER THE PLACE, past present and future - SGA vs Visually pleasing basketball - Can anyone stop the Thunder? - (Live blooper we couldn't edit.... woops) - What's next for the Wizards with getting the #1 Overall pick AND A LOT MORE - Available wherever you get your podcats - Like, share, follow, drop your fanmail/questions and request to be a guest at playbookpod34@gmail.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Did you know that bananas are slightly radioactive? Apparently, that potassium has something in it that will just ever so slightly will get you. What's good, everybody? Welcome back to the Playbook Podcast with Prescott Kelly. I'm your host, Prescott Kelly. Today is Wednesday, May 13th. Glad to have you back with us. Today, we've got a first timer to the show, Pete from Great Sports Debates. Pete, what's good with you? How are you doing, my man?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Oh, it's good evening over here. Uh, excited to talk about some sports, NBA stuff. Sounds like we got good topics to talk about today. So ready to get into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Sounds good, man. And before we do get into it, um, I know you and I have talked a little bit about offstage, but I wanted you to give a little bit of a dose to the people of who you are, what your background is, and uh I'm you know, I'm still getting to know you for the first time, so this will be a little bit of a learning experience for all of us, really.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, sure thing. Uh so I was in the uh military for just over 21 years, uh did various things from uh uh worked as a nuke and uh intel officer. Uh after that, I worked as a contractor for a group Sierra Nevada Corporation, and now I work part-time for uh System High doing classified destruction work. So uh I do great sports debates uh uh on YouTube. Uh I'm not a daily downloader, but when I see something interesting, I will post on it. And uh that's just kind of my way of staying in tune in sports. You know, it was a big thing all through my time in the military. You know, when guys have downtime, it's you know, the bets, the gambling, the discussions that all of us that are into sports really enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

How was the uh the sports gambling? That's that's funny because I I I consider myself kind of a degenerate by the volume that I do, but I know how to keep it in check. I never I never rent them, I never wager the mortgage payment, the truck payment. I always keep it small, but I run a lot of those, you know, 13-leg parlays to see if I can retire early and that kind of stuff. Is uh is the military, the the sports fans in that in that demographic, are they pretty locked into the gambling stuff too, or is it is it not a huge chunk of that space?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

So what I what I'll say about that is um from my experience, it's mostly a lot of the young uh junior enlisted guys. Uh, when I came in, I was uh enlisted initially that are I would say more big fans of sports and or their home teams um than really sophisticated betters are into sports. So especially in the early days when I joined the military, um, I kind of held a lot of money or the books for a lot of young guys. Um and we would just make bets on everything. And you know, especially with a lot of these guys in their young 20s, with you know, you're on a deployment, uh, you used to have cash on the ships back then. So guys are living on a ship and they got nowhere to spend their money, so they're happy to spend it playing cards, gambling, and all these things that happen in the hidden parts of the ship at night. And uh, you know, some of these guys they just want to bet on their team, even if it doesn't make sense. So I literally had deployments where I made more off of sports betting than I did my actual paychecks in the Navy. So that's a true story. Pretty safe to say it at this point, I think.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Well, you gotta love the people who bet with their heart and not with their head.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Yeah, and those there's a lot of those guys, like I said, especially young guys, like you know, you even just you try to tell them you you almost kind of tell them what it is, and they get defensive, and the next thing you know, they're coming up with a crazy bet that's crazier and something you would have even thought of yourself, and you're just like, Okay, let's put the money up, and what was from there?

SPEAKER_02 5:16

What was the wildest bet? Like, so where where does your fanhood lie? Um, because I think on your on your logo, it's Texans stuff, right? Isn't it? Isn't it JJ Watt is the uh the the art?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Yeah, I I think I just kind of have like uh some random players that that I like. Um somebody actually made that for me. Um, but I'm definitely a Detroit Lions fan. So obviously I grew up in the downriver Detroit area. Uh that's really the only way you become a Lions fan. Um, you know, by proxy, I I do like the Pistons. Um, and then just you know, kind of there's always those teams that entertain you for whatever reason, right? So I kind of got on the the Oklahoma City thing, you know, when they signed uh Caruso and Hartenstein coming into that free agent year. I bet them to win that title early. I bet them on their win total. I thought those were two underrated signings that a lot of people didn't talk about, and just the way that they play defense and have great chemistry and a lot of young guys and play hard. I like them a lot. Uh, I know right now they're not as popular with a lot of fans, but I just find they're a really entertaining team to watch for me.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

It's funny that, and we'll get to the SGA and Thunder thing a little bit later on, but it is kind of funny. Like, I I like to try to be ahead of sports news before it gets there, so I can kind of say like I planted my flag here before you know the Stephen A's and the skiffs.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

You tend to enjoy it or like it because you kind of have that pride of like, oh, I was on this here.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Exactly. And the thing for me is I we we went from OKC being it's the fun college environment to they're they're they're gonna have to take their lumps and then they'll win a championship, and then they win a championship, and then you get to the dissecting of SGA and his play, and how they've already, and it doesn't take long, how the media and sports fans are already getting tired of them. We did us with Mahomes, we did like it's it's so easy to predict when this is gonna happen. And I feel like this is we're not far away from even getting over all the web and yama stuff. Like we love him now because he's the alien who's seven, he's seven foot twelve and can do everything that anybody's ever done before. But if like if San Antonio doesn't win a ring in the next four years, let's just say hypothetically, then it's gonna be well, how overrated is Victor? You know, it's it's just the sports cycle's so easy, it's so easy to predict, but nobody can just see. That's why it's called the playbook podcast. The playbook is out there for you. If you just stick to the script and see how people act and interact with uh just the uh the patterns that we see, you can just rinse and repeat it all day long.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah, and it's really even game to game, and I know part of that is kind of the TV uh part of it of getting people to just talk about things to kind of over-exaggerate or overplay things. Um, it seems to get ratings, or at least that's what they say, and it works, but sometimes that impacts betting lines too. You know, uh people not that long ago were talking about the Pistons were done, they were overrated one seed, they were gonna lose to the eighth seed. Um, and you know, I actually got the bet again on Detroit at plus money at a pretty good point. So for the series, for the series, yeah. Um that's wild to me.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

I I oh that's because that's right, because Atlanta was on like this crazy streak post um all-star weekend, and everybody was just eating up their defensive rating and how Cade was the only the only option. And I I do remember seeing that now, actually.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Yeah, and and and people will just switch really quick, you know, from game to game. You know, I posted something, I think you commented on it, or maybe you saw it. It was about uh I thought about maybe making a small bet on the Timberwolves and the Spurs series just because they were plus 600, and I thought that they might have a chance in the series, but overall I decided you know what? The Spurs are too good. I had so many people coming to me telling me, like, oh, you messed up, Minnesota's gonna win this series, all this stuff after game one. It's I'm like, you know, it's one game.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

So crazy how and it's it happens in every every sport that has a series. And I talked about this last week with with CR, who's my buddy who lives in Illinois. That whatever the last thing that we saw is like the momentum and series shifting game, where it's game one, it's like, oh what like it wouldn't matter what the series is. If it's a seven-game series, if you win game one, that's their series. If the losing team from that game wins game two, all of a sudden they took back momentum, they stole home court. It's like, God, this are we really just doing this like 100%? We do it in life as well. Like the last thing we saw is the greatest or worst thing ever, and we just there's no compartmentalizing that it's a long series, you gotta win at least four of these things, it's not over.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, I mean, like you said, it's kind of what you see, burns an image in your mind. It's kind of like how propaganda works in general, right? Of you keep seeing something, then it's something that's happening a lot, even if it's not, it's just something you keep seeing, so you associate it with happening a lot. It's the same way, whereas, hey, they just won this game, but you're not paying attention to well, what's happened all year long, and how are the matchups and what happened in that game that that led to that win, or was it just even a bad game?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah, because there is the outlier of that. And I mean, I think that matchups matter a lot in in single game sample size, if we're talking, you know, March Madness or the Super Bowl, or even just in in series. It's it now you at least have time to adjust, but it still is about matchups, and when you don't have anybody else who is like Vic, it's like Vic is one of one. And right, but um, to get to the actual the the scrolling points that we've got, we talked a little bit about this, and it these two things kind of even interweave with each other with the whole Draymond and Chuck and the Rings culture. Is I've been pretty strident in I've I've backed off a little bit in regards to how much I despise debate television, like the the first takes and and things like that. Um, I still find it annoying and I find it largely uh irrelevant and it's for most incompetent sports fans because it's not really it's not a debate, it's just who yells about their own stance, and you can't you can't be swayed one way or the other. But rings culture is the other thing where it's just who's got more rings? That's the guy who is better. And between sports debate television and rings culture, I feel like it's really kind of dumbed down how we interpret sports on the daily and not being able to enjoy what's really in front of us.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

For sure. And it's just you know, you'll you'll have an argument and people just kind of get stuck on these little almost like talking points, you know, or like someone would do in you know politics or something else where they're not familiar, but they have certain things they say, and you know, you want to have an intelligent debate, you know, people like to argue about certain things, like uh, you know, for instance, I did on my uh YouTube channel this uh GOAT series, you know, because people love to argue about who they think the best players are, right? So I kind of made pros and cons for all these guys, and you know, most of the comments you're gonna get are the negative comments on things that people don't agree with, right? And I'm sure you have it in a lot of the stuff you do with sports too, you know, where they'll just say something like, you know, six and oh, you know, for for Jordan, for instance. Yeah, it's like, well, yeah, his teams were good, and you know, how much you win in championships are definitely part of it, but it's it's not all of it. And you know, people want to dismiss things like you know, stats and the eye test and your accomplishments compared to your peers, but a lot of those at the time that you did it, right? And people don't go into all these details that actually matter a lot more, in my opinion. And there's a lot of these things that are factual that you can't debate that should hold a certain level of weight compared to what team you played on. Because, like you brought up, you know, in team sports, the team around you matters, the competition, the top-level competition that you play against matters. And you know, from watching years and years of basketball, even the things like key injuries and what happened during these games, all matter when it comes to titles. So, you know, to just have simple things to say like, well, this guy won six rings, it's not really an intelligent conversation, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Yeah, I've always felt for the large part that absolutes are for idiots and children, and you know, and trying to trying to do that line so hard of like the line of sand is X. And one of the things that bothers me is and it's not just Jordan's stands. I Jordan's stands annoy me, but it wouldn't be fair for me to also say that LeBron stands don't annoy me as well because both both both are just awful, but both will also move the goalposts, right? Because if it's oh well, six is better than four, and six and no is better than four and ten, it's like, okay, well, if we're doing rings culture, if we're doing rings, then Russell is the guy, and everybody else is and in the second you make that point, you know, it's gonna be like, well, the era or something else of that matter.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

It's like, well, you know, is this the the almighty one thing or is it not? Because you know, when people make the the well, there was eight teams when he played, right? So that means all those teams were actually better because they got all the best player. Obviously, over time in all sports, things evolve and people get better, but you know, if you're just going off of that matrix, then if you're saying who the best player is, it would typically be someone that's playing now or recently. And I think, in fairness, you can only compare people to what they did against their competition in their era.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

I think that's I largely agree with that too. I mean, that's the thing, is when you look at the the people who use the size of the leagues as a either a hindrance or a prop, depending on what side of the the narrative you want to swing on. But you go back to if there's eight teams, every team has a 12% chance essentially of winning a title, whereas now it's three percent. Your numbers exponentially change by just the the growth and the development of players, athletes, and just the the leagues are not built the way they were 70 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Correct. And not to mention that, just when you when you have less teams, you know, in theory, you have better players because there's a smaller number of people playing on each of the teams, and you have evidence of that if you look at stuff like uh team and league field goal percentage and um other team matrix that drastically decreased when you had eras of expansion in the NBA, because now there's a new influx of players to fill these extra teams, like when we introduced the magic and the heat, you know, scoring, field goal percentage, all those things had dropped across the league.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, and I think it's interesting too because I mean there's there's one that was that the and I think that people want to go straight to the rules changed, and that's that that's the easy cop out of just like well, the rules are different. And well, yeah, it's true, but they've also added the three-point line, they've also added free agency, which to me is one of the biggest that's one of the biggest shifts of modernized sports, and and now it is because when we do with like the ring culture thing, it's very much like there was the the Russell Celtics, and then you every era that you go down, the level or the the number of championships that you win goes down, which in in theory at that point in time it really just says nobody could ever be the greatest basketball player ever because we haven't had a back-to-back champion in what a decade. So you have no chance of catching Jordan, you have no chance of catching anybody on the rings culture ladder.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Right, and every year teams are more competitive, there's more money at stake, uh, there's more competitive structures always putting in from you know salary cap and free agency and guys being more willing to move around because you know the money's there for that. So it's not going to be like, you know, when Boston was winning all those titles, what a lot of people don't realize is they had a lot of the best players, too. So they should have been winning the titles all the time. I mean, they had a lot of guys that were top-level guys, guys who had won multiple MVPs, you know, with Koozie, Russell, and all those guys on there, a ton of Hall of Famers. But, you know, people don't look at things like comparing the payrolls and things like that of those teams compared to other teams at that time.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

And I also feel like there's there's we weren't really planning on going into baseball, but I just that's one of the reasons why I think that baseball is completely broken. Like I know that there's there's revenue sharing, but as a general rule, you know, if if you are if everybody's not paying it. I personally like I actually don't mind there not being a salary cap in baseball. Um, I thought there shouldn't be a salary cap in football. The anarchy would be crazy because that's what I'm here for. I'm here for the anarchy and the chaos of sports because these billionaire owners would not know what to do with themselves if nobody was restricting or handcuffing how they could spend their money. Um, but yeah, there's there's just so many shifts in how we've evolved to this point that just with the ring culture thing, there's there's no way that anybody could ever, and maybe it's by design that if you're a Jordan guy, you're a Jordan guy, and nobody's ever gonna get to 6-0 in the finals and be arguably the best player ever by the way that we just measure the championships. And that kind of flows us into the Draymond and Charles Barkley thing is so I'm a Bills fan. I've been a Bills fan since I was four years old. And I remember back in the the boy I love losing Super Bowl days, everybody used to make fun of that Bills team, Jim Kelly. And I think the further that we get removed from it, people understand how difficult of a task it was to go to four straight, because that's been done since. And I think that that's where we've gone as a society, too. Is Draymond is fun, he's and he was an integral part of their winning championships for sure. But at the end of the day, when we look at like who would you rather be Draymond or Charles? Charles Barkley is also my favorite basketball player. I remember I was like seven years old watching him be 6'4, undersized, dribbling the ball at the court, shooting threes, like he was my guy. And I would have much rather been Charles Barkley winning an MVP and being the best player on a team that went to the finals, as opposed to just being a dude. Because I made the argument when he was an unrestricted free agent that he, if he goes to Orlando, this was like three years ago, he doesn't make them any better. He he doesn't do anything. So I would I think that once we get past all of some of the nonsense and the debate supporting the rings culture, uh, the further we get down the line, we kind of self-evolve into knowing that no Charles Barkley's a better player than than Draymond Green, even though he's got he's gonna do this all the time.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah, it's it's uh it's crazy to me. And uh I actually made a short uh about ring culture you know a few days ago when all this stuff happened. Uh it just actually inspired me. I was like, hey, I gotta make a video about this, because to me, the fact that anyone would even think of the comparison of Charles Barclay to Draymond Green is ridiculous to me. And you know, while I agree, he's definitely was uh important part to those championship teams. You know, he's as one guy said and put it very well, he's the first. Guy in NBA history who made four all-star teams off of setting screens and playing good defense.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Um my god, who that was that was the Kevin Hart roast, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yeah, yeah. Someone had sent me the link uh about it when I mentioned it because we were talking about it. And you know, it's funny because it's also so true, right? Because you know, Draymond Green would never have been an all-star on a lot of different teams, despite being a good player. Charles Barkley is one of the best players of all time, and in my opinion, a pretty underrated player. Um, you know, I think he has a strong case of you know, one of the best, definitely on the offensive side of the ball, power forwards. And I think people forget because they just look at counting numbers and highlights and didn't watch him play, and he didn't have any super crazy things, but he was very smart and efficient with his shots. I think people don't realize he led the league in effective field goal percentage and field goal percentage a lot of years. He shot over 60% of the field, taking a lot of shots multiple years. So the guy is a really great scorer, not to mention, like you said, I mean, this is a guy getting 13 plus rebounds some seasons at you know, 6'4, 6'5, whatever he is. He was always up there among the league leaders and rebounders. So to compare them is crazy. And I I thought one thing that I saw that was really funny about this was somebody had posted like the list of Charles numbers uh in Houston, you know, because Draymond Green made that comment of oh, we just want we just don't want to look like yeah. I mean, I think his worst season in Houston was, you know, at least numbers-wise better than any season Draymond Green ever had. So again, you know, the the whole thing, and he he wasn't like the main piece of any of those teams. You could argue he cost them more titles than he helped them win from the way he is in the locker room to running guys like KD off and and Poole and whoever else, and I'm sure a whole bunch of other people that we don't even know or hear about because you can imagine being around someone like that is extremely difficult. I think we've all been around people like Draymond Green that make life difficult. But yeah, it doesn't make any sense. It would be like me starting to talk about Robert Hori being better than Michael Jordan because he's got seven. Like nobody would take this seriously, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

That was exactly the that was exactly the example I was going to use because he is the benchmark, he is the the crown jewel of well, if that's gonna be your argument, then what about Robert Horey?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Right. And you know, it you know, some people will say, well, you know, that's not a serious argument, but it just to me highlights how ridiculous it is to just be going around, you know, like 6-0, or you know, this guy has four rings and this guy only has threes, because there's a lot that goes into it, right? So even though winning is obviously the most important thing, it shouldn't be the top metric that we are ranking individual players on, because there's so many more things to it that they actually impact and that you can factually show four guys.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Yeah, for sure. And anytime that you challenge anybody with that, it's it's always the argument is well, it's a team sport. Because if you do if you do the numbers of rings, culture, that kind of stuff, is people say, well, Trent Dilfer has a ring and Jim Kelly and Dan Breno doesn't. Like, oh, so you think that he's better because he's got a ring, and you go, Well, no, does okay. Well, again, we're what are we doing here? Like, what what measurements are we actually using to decide on how great a player actually is, and where it's moving the goalposts mostly on fanhood instead of logic and reason.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Right, and that's a lot of sports, and that's where it can kind of get fun sometimes too. But it is difficult to have those like fun, engaging, intelligent, interactive conversations when you have someone that's like stuck on some of these sticking points. And you know, the point you mentioned was a great one because Dan Marino, like anybody that watched his entire career, would definitely consider him one of the best, if not the best, quarterback of all time. And you know, I know people get confused, like kind of like scoring inflation. We know there's a lot of rules and things that have changed over time that have been helpful to offense, in particular passing games. You know, when you consider and you look at the time when he threw for over 5,000 yards, like he was putting a number way beyond what anybody else was doing. Like at that point, you know, 4,000 yards was a big benchmark, and you had seasons where nobody threw for 4,000 yards. So, you know, he did it, and it wasn't dink and dunk offense. He was throwing big deep plays to get those yards, and he didn't have a lot of help most of his career in the running game. Or, you know, he had some defenses that were okay, but never anything super dominant. He had some that were obviously poor. The way he got rid of the ball so quick, his ball velocity, his accuracy, his ability to throw a deep ball, like that's a really good quarterback.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

And I feel like that there's there's two sides of the coin on that. Like one, those are those are all true. And then there's the argument of, well, if he played in today's NFL, he would have thrown for 7,000 yards. And I feel like that's absolutely ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah, you know, like you said, it's it's always hard to extrapolate, like just because you dominated here in this era, like you know, who knows you know if you moved here or there or whatever. And and a lot of those things get into tough hypotheticals, and that's kind of where I go back to, you know, I'm gonna compare guys based on what they did against their peers, because they can only be compared to the advantages, the rules, all those things. Like, sure, you when you look at guys across different eras, you can compare uh you know different things, but you have to keep in mind like you know, throwing for 5,000 yards in you know, 84 or whatever year that was compared to throwing 5,000 yards, you know, today or in the last five years are two completely different things.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah, yeah, no, no, for sure. And it's I I just it's weird because I I constantly hear about back in the day, like how the defenses were more imposing, and it was yeah, the rules were different, but I mean, the we have linebackers running four three and four, four forties now.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Like it's it's yeah, it's a different game and a different reason, but so the athletes are always going to get better over time, right? So, yeah, you know, in that metric, you know, guys that play now are typically going to be better if you look at it in an absolute way, right? And I think what people mean by these defenses were more imposing is they were allowed to do more. There was more grabbing, there was more bumping, there were guys launching themselves like missiles headfirst into guys, literally putting the fear into people in the middle in a different way than you could do now. Um, but you know, like every sport, rules evolved to make the game more entertaining for most fans, and you know, with safety and players uh involved in that because at the end of the day, they're the product. So, you know, a lot of these rules are not only to make the game more entertaining, more offensive, but to also protect these quarterbacks because you know they understand that that exactly that's the ratings, that's the moneymaker. People don't want to get to a playoff race where everyone's banged up and injured and out. And well, I I do like the safety changes for the most part, you know. Of course, there's always going to be some that some people don't like. You know, I do feel like there's a lot of rules that put defenders in tough spots, but you know, at the end of the day, the NFL is going to protect the quarterbacks that bring in the revenue and bring the eyeballs for most fans.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Are you a fan of most of the rule changes then? I feel like I feel like there's because by and large, I'm okay with the rule change that the NFL has made um for a lot of the same reasons that you said, but also it is such a nitpicky. It's all of it, it's because the fans are entitled because the players, those the fans think the players are entitled, so then the fans become entitled. We want to get it right, and it's just because also the technology, because we can see every blade of grass now, it's but it's become so the experience has been so diluted that they want it perfectly correct every single time where you you lose the engagement and lose the the the water cooler effect of we lost only because of X, Y, and Z call, and now it's if you lost, you lost. Like it was it's just obvious, right? It's yeah, and I I feel like it takes a little bit of away from the experience, but overall, are you do you agree with most of the rule changes that have been made at the at the NFL? Or I I get we were on the MBA. Um just just in general, are you are you a fan of the way that they've changed the officiating on things?

SPEAKER_00 31:20

So I would say for the most part, most rules are are made for a reason that makes sense, right? Um, there are some rules, you know. Um, you know, for instance, you know, there's some things that should be called a certain way, in my opinion, or should be read out where you know some of these defenders where you're going full speed, they're almost penalized in a way, or quarterbacks can do certain things that kind of gets them a penalty. So some of that stuff's kind of hard to figure out, right? Because you want to get away.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Can you pick a fake slide?

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Right. Fake slide, exactly. Like you can't tell the defender there, you know, it's a penalty if they hit this guy sliding, and someone can pull up or act like they're gonna slide, and then they run down the sideline. Like that, I'm not a huge fan of stuff like that. So it's always it's always easy to see in hindsight, but I do think most of the rule changes are made for the right reason. The biggest one that gives me a hard time in the NBA, and again, I understand why they do it, is I think it would be easier for everyone involved if everyone got called the same penalties the same way, you know. So everyone knows what it is, you know. And you know, I don't know, you'll have people talking about the free throw merchant or some guys getting certain calls, like just call it the same way for every single player, right? Like this superstar whistle thing that that came up in in the 80s. Like, I'm just not a fan of it, right? You're already a great player, you're gonna learn how to draw fouls. Like, I got no problem with guys like James Harden and Carl Malone and Adrian Dantley that know how to draw fouls, but just make sure it's an actual foul, like to the best of your ability, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah, I think that that's the that has to be, and and even going with official at all these levels, that it's so much more difficult to officiate now than it was in the 80s and 90s because the athletes are different, the fast twitch is different, and all the camera angles that are second-guessing you as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like you don't get the opportunity to just do your job. There's always an eye in the sky, there's always somebody who is watching over your shoulder because I to a degree I've always been kind of annoyed by the fact of if we have the technology, why not use it? Because tennis always has seemed to get it right. And it's it's just it's just tennis. You think the NFL doesn't have that like that kind of money to be able to not replace referees, but in an instant be able to say, like, this this ABS stuff in baseball is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Right. So I want to I wanted to ask you, I was literally thinking about that while you were talking about it. Is you know, why is baseball so resistant to stuff like this where it's like at the end of the day, you want to get the call right, right? Like, why aren't we just letting something that's going to get the call right do the job? And you know, then there's no advantage for certain guys or disadvantages for other guys. I think that most people would be in favor of that, but it seems like there's a lot of baseball people that don't want that for whatever reason. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

It's I think that baseball is just it's the last of the dying breed of well, they they love to use the unwritten rules. Yeah, now I so I I feel like this is this is why I feel like the older generation, because it's for lack of a better term, dying off, they're not we're not able to hand down the laziness of it's always been done this way.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

That's like my least favorite quote in life.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Uh we yeah, it's we've always done it this way. Okay, so we we're just not allowed to evolve as people, we're not allowed to evolve as an industry. So, and I there are certain things, and again, like this is just my opinion, but balls and sp uh balls and strikes, I think that should be that needs to be called correctly and know exactly what you're looking at every single time, right? Some of these other things that are judgment calls, um like holding in the NFL, that's always going to be difficult. I think it happens almost yeah, but like when it comes to certain things like is your foot behind the three-point line? That shouldn't be a judgment call. Was it a ball or strike? Shouldn't be a judgment call. Those things need to be finite. We need to have an answer for what is expected of us and the targets that we're trying to hit.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Right. And if we have this technology, you know, why aren't we using it? Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Well, I know that some people the argument is well, if we don't, if we use the technology, we're taking jobs away, right? And I understand that to a degree, but you're not really paying these guys anyways because they're substitute teachers and you know, you know, they're they're they're they're doing other gigs besides this to make a living. So you're not paying them to really get it right anyways. So if you I think that if you put the resources into the people to get it right, uh that'd be one thing. But because they know they've got to work two jobs, one in the offseason and one during the season to make legitimate wages, uh especially in the way that things are today, you know, uh they're probably gonna phone it in and say, hey, well, we got you got somebody else to do my job for me. I I just feel like if you put that if you don't put the time and the energy and the resources into the people that you want to do the work for you, you're gonna get a downgraded product. And that's why the officiating has been so under a microscope, I think.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Absolutely. And I I just want to say on that point, you know, I I think I understand why people are always worried about job loss with technology. Um, and you know, I don't want this to sound like cold or wrong, but that should never be the reason that we don't move forward with technology to do things better, because there's always going to be jobs that are phased out and new jobs that are created. And while I understand it's tough for someone that's actually doing those jobs, you know, that's also part of life, and we can't artificially have jobs going on, you know, just for the sake of having the job, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Yeah, no, I I totally get what you're saying, and I think that the other thing too is I I feel like officiating is just it's a it's an underrated viewing experience as well. Like if we if we just had robots throwing flags or you know, you know, shooting lasers that are yellow and red, depending like what's going on, it just wouldn't feel the same, right? You have to have you have to have a body that you can yell at. I don't want to yell at I don't want to yell at big hero six. I want to go yell at Ed Hockey Lee. Like that's it's different.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

And I and I think as far as the NBA and the NFL for sure, like you're going to continue to have officials. You're still gonna need those people, you know, at least as far into the future as I can see. You're going to need those people. I think the technology making it available for them to assist them to make the right key calls is a good thing, not a bad thing. You know, I'm not talking about technology replacing those guys, I'm talking about it being a tool available to help them in a way where they're not handcuffed or feel like they have to make some decision or get some call up. Like there's too many concerns about what time it adds onto the game. You know, at the end of the day, people want to get the call right and people aren't turning off the station, right? If you're a football fan, you're watching the game, right? They're already dealing with longer commercials and all that stuff, and no one's worried about that, right? They're not going to be worried about someone reviewing a call. And oh, by the way, that might be an opportunity to slide in some more commercials. So I think it's a win-win for everyone there.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

I do too. And I think that one of the other things that is is kind of an underrated portion of it where the referees don't refs or umps or whatever, whatever sport we're talking about, is that there's the ego that goes with it, that people like people seem to lose sight of the human element of just life and whatever you do for work. Nobody wants to be questioned. And like Angel Hernandez couldn't couldn't occupy a space in space in the or uh major league baseball, really, you know, because of the the constant questioning and getting things wrong. And there's an ego that goes into it, like, this is my profession, this is what I do, I'm good at what I do, there's a reason why I'm here. And then, oh, so not only is the the pitchers going to challenge me or the battles going to challenge me, now I have something else that's just constantly ridiculing me. And I think that they just want some kind of freedom in order to do their job. Um, but I think the human element of being embarrassed on national television has a little bit to do with it as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Sure, absolutely. And you know, that's part of you know making sure you have the right people in there that you know understand it's about getting the job right, not about worrying about video evidence, you know, overturning or showing more accurately what's happening. Because the fact of the matter is, like we've talked about, if you look at over the years, how many cameras have increased, so say since like the 70s with like Monday night football to now, right? And I don't remember all the different numbers, but a huge difference in the number of camera coverage in a game from back in the day to now. They're gonna get ridiculed about a bad call way more without it being corrected than say in the heat of the moment, you thought it was this and you were able to fix it. That's way better than think about how many times a big call has been messed up in the playoffs and they talked about it all week on all the sports channels, right? They're they're gonna get ridiculed way more if it's not corrected compared to hey, you initially made the wrong call and it got corrected, it might get mentioned or something after the fact, but no big deal. You get a call wrong that sends somebody home in the playoffs, you know, some crazy fans are gonna remember that for their lifetime, and it's definitely gonna be all over the TV and media. So, you know, even in that case, I think you're still better off correcting it in the moment and in time when it can be fixed, compared to you know not fixing it at all. But you it is a great point, like you said, and I've seen it so many times with even things outside of sports with leaders, uh, you know, just scared to be wrong or scared to be questioned, or not wanting to be embarrassed about getting something wrong. And you know, at the end of the day, it's okay and it's going to be respected more to just be like, hey, I got that wrong, I see this now, we're moving forward on the right track.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

And that's one of my favorite quotes of all time that I use quite often is that people want to be right, but they don't want to get it right.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

100%. And uh, I like you said, I think it's it's just a human nature thing. But as we develop as people, and especially you know, with experience and time, hopefully, you know, we kind of grow to understand that it's way more important to get it right than to be right because someone that is doing well or gets it right a lot of the time has no problem omitting when they get it wrong. So that's something I think most people learn over time or hopefully learn over time.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Yeah, and I want to is and to keep with the officiating thing. Um, I had something in and I lost it. It was very poignant. I thought it was going to be an eloquent statement and I lost it in my train of thought. But to move on to the officiating of you talked about it earlier with having the calls be right or not right, but just be consistent with it. And that's something that's always it's always bothersome to me personally. When I hear on sports talk stations all the time is especially like in these series, when it's most specifically basketball, it's just call it consistently or from the get go, right from the get go, let me know what I'm getting myself into. That just seems like it's a very I understand the point of what people are saying, but also every single game, I shouldn't have to test you as an official on where you are going to draw the line. I I get it, I need to know what I'm getting myself into, but every single Game, I shouldn't have to be guessing what kind of mood you're in and how you're going to change the game. Like, yes, call it the same way all the way throughout the game, but give the game I shouldn't have to figure you out.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

100%. And I know I don't know if they still do this. I had heard before in the NBA, I know they they try to get the refs and uh talk with both the teams kind of before the games to just kind of go over that stuff, what they're expecting, what they see, all that kind of stuff. But you still get where, like you said, the game isn't called today the same way it was called yesterday, or you're not calling it the same way for this player is that player, and it makes it tough for for guys, and you know, and then you have all the little uh generalities of it too, right? Where you know, if you're a big guy and you turn into someone, it might be an offensive foul. But you know, if you're a small guy like you know, Jalen Brunson, you can kind of lower your shoulder and jump into someone, and it's a fall foul on the defender, you know. It just kind of makes it hard for teams to play defense the right way when they don't know basic stuff, like what's gonna be a charge and what's gonna be a block.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Well, I think that's my most in today's NBA, like when you you can the rule changes you can complain all you want to about, but the one that gets me the most that aesthetically to me is the most infuriating is like the push-off stiff arm with your off-ball hand for the for your step back jumper. It is I I don't even have words to describe how frustrated as a former hooper, how it is like and people getting called for blocking fouls. It's it's asinine to me.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Yeah, and think about it just like you said, you know, from playing basketball yourself, right? How many times would you be able to get an easy layup if you can use your offhand to clear the person out, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:04

So you know, I was a three-point, I was I was your typical white boy, I was not going anywhere inside 18 feet. I I lived in the three-point line. I wasn't I wasn't driving the hoop, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

You know, when it when I was in the military, you know, we start playing, and next thing you know, everyone's talking, and then it turns into combat basketball, right? So and you're like long as yard basketball, where right it can it can turn physical really quick because you know it starts off, you know, you're just playing, and then one guy's bumping, and then one guy's hooking with their elbow, and then you know, they're nudging this person, and it just kind of escalates, right? Because it's all these little steps upwards of you know, and when you're in a game, especially when there is no whistle, that can just escalate to infinity, right? But you know, you need to have a clear line so players can know what what they're doing. But more importantly, in my opinion, is it's got to be the same rules for all the players, right? You can't have it where one guy can't even go into you know, some no-name player, he can't even bump into you, or it's a charge, or you know, it's an off-ball foul, or they use their offhand, and then other guys are literally throwing elbows, you know what I mean, just lunging elbows, and it's a foul on the defender somehow. And I think uh Wilt Chamberlain said it really well when he was calling games back in the day, and you know, he said, Well, someone laughed when he said he thought he'd score 70 points in a game. And he said, Well, he's like, believe me. He said, You look when I played, I got two or three guys hanging all over me, bumping me, pushing me while I'm shooting. He's like, Now you're gonna tell me if I'm allowed to turn, throw a big elbow into someone, clear them out, and lay the ball in, and it's a foul on them, I wouldn't be able to score more points. You know, and it just kind of goes to say, like, you have to make it, you can't call a game special for a guy just because they're a star player, like they already have enough advantages going for them. Like, just call the game the right way and and let the players who are gonna stand out stand out. It also makes it easier for guys like you know, Daniels, Asar Thompson, all these elite defenders to know what they can actually do and what they get away with. Because a lot of times people will complain about look at any of these guys who are first team defense, and you'll have somebody that complains that guy fouls a lot, right? You have to walk a very tight line to play good defense at that level, right? So, you know, if the guys know where that line is, I think it makes it easier for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

For sure. And Steven Muma is in the building. He says, What's up, guys? Steven is my uh he is my Buffalo Bills correspondent who actually lives in that Buffalo uh area of New York. He's been on the show a couple times and he's a big sabers guy, big bills guy. He's he's uh he's a staple throughout the NFL season. I can't wait to have him back on again. Uh when you brought when you talk about bringing or like getting things officiated the same way, I I agree with it. I feel like it should, but I think that at this point in time society just won't let us do that because again, it comes down to the entitlement of do you know who I am? How come I don't get these calls? Because in there like once once you've opened Pandora's box of the special treatment, it's really hard to close it back up.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Um now you have a lot of those media guys asking for it, right? Oh, this guy should get that call.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Actually, that's that that that is such a great point. That is actually more infuriating than the players, is because you have announcers who are saying you should get that call. You're not entitled to that being called a foul, you're just not. Um, right. But when you when you brought up that point, because we want to segue into this this Victor and Nas thing, is was that called? Because I wasn't watching the game, all I saw was Slick Vic ripping bows and hit Nas Reed in the face. And did did Nas get called for a defensive foul on that?

SPEAKER_00 50:14

So there was um a couple of things uh earlier there were some exchanges beforehand, right? Right, where but it was just kind of in my opinion, like small things that happen all the time of you know, grabbing and fighting, all that kind of stuff, right? So initially they just called a foul on uh Wemby with the elbow coming through, and then they reviewed it and made it a flagrant two. Now, for me, in my opinion, um, you know, I could see either way. I would think that there might be a suspension because when you're doing something that's not a basketball play, right? Um you know, I think like an accidental or incidental elbow would be one thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Maybe you have there was a wind up with that thing, right? He he saw through the through through his pariff, he looked at him and said, I'm doing this with all my intent.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

That's exactly what it looked like, right? Was you know, he did not want to be crowded, he didn't want to be grabbed, he didn't like what was going on when they were trying to pressure him, right? And he just kind of wound up and threw that elbow. So I think the refs made the right call. Uh, you know, obviously upgrading that to a flagrant two, and obviously the ejection that came with it.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

Uh so you were surprised that you that he didn't receive uh another. Do you do you think if it happened later in the game, they would have suspended him the next game, or because it was still in the first half, that's the reason why they didn't?

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Yeah, I wouldn't say I I was um surprised that he didn't get suspended. I thought he should have got suspended. Um, then that's just me. I'm not a fan of non-basketball plays like that, right? I just you know, from playing in leagues or especially if you're playing, you know, in the street somewhere, you know, you just can't let that kind of stuff slide.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

It could have actually okay, whatever you say, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:12

Imagine because my my thought too was say Reed reacted to that. I think 100% he would have been suspended if he reacted to that elbow and it turned into a fight or whatever, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:24

100%.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

And I'm just not a fan of the NBA. Hey, this is Wimby, we're not gonna sit him. I think it sets a bad example long term that that's gonna be something else someone can point to. Well, this guy did this, they didn't get a suspension. So, and you know, a lot of sports goes back to that stuff, right? You hear it all the time in the media, yeah. They always reference certain things. Well, you know, there's precedence for this, there's precedents for this. At the end of the day, a lot of these rules that the NBA changed that people complained took physicality out of basketball, were done to prevent exactly what Wemby did a non-basketball, dirty frustration play. And I don't think that I don't think there's any need for that. I don't think that has anything to do with physicality or anything. I just think that's taking a cheap shot at someone, you know, someone that can't really do something back at that point, right? Because if Wemby gets fined or suspended, it's a lot different for him than if Reed does, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Well, and and you you raise an interesting point because that's if let's just say Champagny was the one who threw a bow, definitely suspended. That dude's suspended immediately. Like he's thrown out, he's ejected, and then he's he's done for maybe even the series, where Webinyama only gets uh a fine and a and a and an injection. And but you're right, if Nas would have if it was Anthony Edwards, that would have been offsetting technical fouls, both guys ejected, nobody's suspended, anything like that. And it is, it's so frustrating. Where like I can understand why you do it, but also not agree with it at the same time. And I I'm with you a thousand percent where this this the crime and the criminals should fit the exact same bill.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

100%. Did you ever hear the uh Jimmy Johnson quote on this before?

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Um man, probably, but uh, Jimmy Johnson if if you if you say it's probably refresh it, but I off the top of my head I I can't name it myself.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

So when he first got to Dallas, you know, he was doing this big thing of changing the team around, being strict, cutting guys for different reasons. And you know, some guy came late to a team meeting, and you know, hey, you're off the team, buddy. We're not doing that. Somebody asked him afterwards, well, what happens if Michael Irvin was late to the team meeting? I tell him to try to make sure he's on time next time.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

Different rules for different guys, you know. It's 100%, and again, as somebody who is a sales manager at a car dealership, I personally don't do this, but I've worked at other big dealerships beforehand when I was younger. And it is if you sell 30 cars a month, you can show a play all you want to. But if you're a four or five car guy a month or four or five car a month guy, when you're late, man. Like we don't we don't have we don't we don't tolerate that here. No, you tolerate the people who make you money, and that's the thing is that Nazre is not on the level that Webbinyama is as far as the popularity is concerned. Um but I did, I I feel like it did it felt intentional to me what when what Webbinyama did. It didn't feel like it was a basketball play that got out of hand, or he was trying to because sometimes you'll see that where people are trying to block a shot or they're they'll they'll dunk and they hang on the rim, and you'll sometimes you'll see it be called a tentacle, and some guys are just really trying to protect the other players so they don't fall on them and things like that. This seemed like it was a calculator.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

In my opinion, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Honestly, I feel like that should be that should be abolished anyways. Like hanging on the rim is such a stupid thing to get a tentacle foul for. It's a stupid thing to do just in the open court, but I mean, sometimes there's a safety reason for it, and just doing it is not a sign of it's like an unwritten rule again, but for basketball, is you don't hang on the rim, it's taunting. No, sometimes I'm just not wanting to fall on somebody and hurt them or me.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Right, and that's where you know the human element of having referees that can have some discretion or be allowed to have some discretion would be helpful.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Yeah, it's the good, it's the good, the bad, and the ugly of having humans be a part of it because again, like you the person who ejected Wemby is probably thinking in their head too. Well, I guess they wouldn't have the power to actually suspend and that would be the league office. So they wouldn't really be able to say you're suspended for the next game. But you gotta think that that goes into the mind of uh where now, but also you again opening Pandora's box of if Wemby knows I'm just gonna get ejected and not suspended, how far does he think uh that he can cross the line with those Street Fighter Dolzim arms of his and try to try to do something that's even further to push the envelope and see if he can get away with it?

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Absolutely, and that's the problem that that you do with that is you push the boundaries and you make it acceptable for how much is this guy gonna get away with before he actually does something. I think I got a runaway Malinois that just broke in here.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

You do, you got a doggy with you. Who is that?

SPEAKER_00 57:48

That is Milo. So I'll try to make sure he doesn't jump up on the table or do anything too crazy, but he was crazed up, but apparently someone let him out, and as usual, he found his way to me.

SPEAKER_02 58:01

And he opened the door on his own.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Yeah, yeah, he can open the doors, he can close the doors, he can get on top of the island, he can escape our backyard, so I have to go out there with him despite a six-foot wall. So he's a bit of a handful, he definitely freaks people out, and he'll chase a bird, jump over our fence. People like, oh my god, the dog's loose, and I'll be like, Milo, come here, and he'll jump back over the wall into our yard. So don't worry, guys. Crisis averted.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

Figured it out. Well, to keep it with the officiating, and we'll we'll get to the point of wrapping things up. We got a lot of like we'll wrap it up with most of the thunder stuff, but the the SGA, because you had mentioned at the beginning of the show that you know, being more of like a Lions fan and by proxy, a Pistons fan, but you've kind of enjoyed the the Thunder upcoming, and I feel like most people are because it feels like they they did it the right way with smart ownership, drafting right. Uh they didn't buy their players, things like that. It it felt like they really did it in a way that most people would appreciate in the sports landscape that we're currently in. Um, but again, just like anything else, now we're starting to nip pick and say, well, is this is SGA really that good? The foul merchant, the flopping, things like that. Um is that how you is that how you see him? And do you think that he gets those certain calls? Because again, like the push-off thing, he's he's the to me, he's prime suspect number one. It's him and James Harden who just love giving that little shiv and get and creating that space. And that that to me, I think, is the most irritating part about his game more than anything else, and that's what drives me nuts.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

So 100% agree that you know James Harden and SGA are both a thousand percent guilty of doing those things. The part that I'm not a fan about is you know, you you constantly have the whole free throw merch and stuff, and I I hate the flopping, and I know they both do a lot of that too, but we're pretending like they're the only ones that do these things, right? Exactly. So, and again, if the reps called the games consistently for everyone, none of those guys would do it, right? But kind of like what you were talking about with Wimby, okay, he got away with this. What's he gonna do? That's what the NBA has evolved into because so many guys have used their off arm to push off going way back for decades, and now it's an acceptable thing, right, for certain players, right? You know, you have the famous shot where you see the big arm clear out, and it's not like that was the only time he he did that, and it's and a lot of guys have done that. And if you play, you know, you said you play basketball, you know, even rec league, college level, whatever, you're gonna do whatever the ref allows you to get away with to get an advantage, right? Because that's the name of the game. So yeah, if they called that off arm push on everybody, I would be happy with that, right? I don't get that, you know, guys like you had mentioned prime suspect number one, SGA, and you know, Harden doing that 100%, they do it, but so do a ton of other guys, but people fixate on these guys, you know, for whatever reason. I know James Harden for a while was getting double-digit free throws, and he scored all these points, and people started stringing together the clips of him flopping and making bad contact and using his off arm, but again, he wasn't the only one doing it right now. SGA is having a lot of success, and if you look at his numbers and like the seasons he's having, like it's really historic. Like it if you watch him play a lot, he takes a lot of mid-range jump shots, and the efficiency he's had over the course of this year is just really mind-blowing to shoot that effectively, taking those kinds of shots. So I think he's having a great year. Um, I understand the frustration with some of the stuff he does, but I think it's crazy. Again, I think it's one of those media-generated things where people focus on it because it's tough a lot. But if you watch a lot of games of a lot of teams, I guarantee anybody that watches a lot of NBA can name at least one player that uses their off arm a lot on every single team in the NBA.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

Well, it's not even just that, like that that was the talking point. But when we talk about the floppy and things like that, the guy who seems to miss, or there's really two guys when you think about it. Giannis is one of them, but the guy who and this is when they lose, because in the regular season, when they're dominating and putting up crazy numbers, they're praised. But him and Jokic, when they start to lose, that's when you see those same, like not so much the push-off, but the flopping and the antics that you don't see in the regular season. They're just bad losers, man. And like nobody wants to say it. But when things aren't going their way, you start seeing the things that we put them on a pedestal for in the regular season. You see that Jekyll in Hyde, and it turns on its head real quick of the trying to foul bait from three from Jokic, you know, things like just certain things in his game that aren't organic to who he is as a person. But when he's down 3-1 or 3-2, and it's a it's a serious clinching game, you start to see the antics, or you know, he'll get in guys' faces and he'll run up on guys like Jane McDaniels or whoever it was. It's just it's unbecoming of somebody who's supposed to be the best player in the league, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Yeah, I think a lot of that is uh mix of desperation and frustration, right? Because yeah, if you think about it, right, we talk about how much more athletic the league is now, and of course it is, but uh you know, you have a guy like Jokic who's been considered the best player for a lot of years in this league and is far from athletic, at least compared to other NBA players. And he's gotten by with really high skill level, really high basketball IQ, and really seeing the court well, and just really knowing the game of basketball that's put him at a very elite level. Problem is, and people that were watching last year should recognize is this just isn't a good matchup for him, right? Like, yeah, Ruby's too big for him to do anything in the post. They got a bunch of athletic defenders on that team that you know aren't gonna just let him shoot free three-pointers.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

Well, yeah, because they got the bodies, they got they got Gobert, and then they've got Nasri, and they've got Julius.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Now, I see exactly they have multiple big athletic guys that can do different things, and they literally did the same thing to him. Was it last year, year before, whatever?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:13

One of the two years.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

Minnesota looked great against them the last time they matched up.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:18

I do feel this 100% my bones, though, is that there's certain players when I where I look at NFL quarterbacks or NBA players, like either by name or by looks. There's certain things I'm like, you're not gonna be great, I can't win anything with you. But then there's just the behavior and the the selfishness and the lack of self-aware. Julius Randle can't be your second best player and win a championship. I I he he always just does Julius Randle things. I can't I can't get on board with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:44

So so the problem with uh Julius Randle and why I've never been a fan, and I've always said he's not a guy I would want to sign, right? Is because you know, one, you're gonna be paying a lot of money to a guy who main thing is scoring and he doesn't really do it well or efficient. He turns the ball over a lot. He's streaky. He can't create, like, you know, one-on-one on some matchups. Sure, he can dominate and have good days. But he can't just create his own shot or take over an offense on a team. He's just not a winning basketball player to have on your team. I think he's more of a short-term fix, or if he was a guy in your rotation or off a bench, would could be a great fit. But you know, of course, he's not going to be that. Um, and that's the same way I feel about a lot of these guys. Um, you know, I know a lot of people criticize why I talked about you know Trey Young before. If he is the distributor on your team and is passing the ball around and a part of a team, he might be a good player. But as the ball dominant, inefficient shot taker that's already not good on the defensive end that you're paying a max contract to, that's not a winning recipe in a league where you have a salary cap.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

No, I agree. And that was the really the last talking point was to go to the Wizards. And I I I do feel like because it's the East, and because they've got Anthony Davis and they've got Trey Young, it's a team where if you get DeBanza, which it's not, it seems like that would be the play, right? Like I don't feel like they'd move down to two or three or four. It seems like now if you can get a crazy package where because apparently this is a deep draft, I don't watch a whole lot of college hoops. So if it's supposed to be a top heavy one through four draft, maybe if a team just blows you away with a player and a pick or you know, a couple picks, whatever the case is, maybe you move back. But that seems like a pretty good core of DeBansta um Davis and Trey Young to be what, like a seven seed next year in the East, and at least he's viable.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:59

Yeah, and the reason that I'm really interested in the Wizards is just kind of what you said, right? Is there's not any team that really blows you away in the East, right? It's kind of wide open for the taking, or you know, at least being competitive in the playoffs, and just the star power alone, you're kind of curious how it comes together and how they play. My biggest question mark or fear with the the Wizards would be is how are they going to be collectively on the defensive end, right? There's a lot of young players, they've been pretty bad on that end, and now you're adding in a guy, Trey Young's. Who's not good on that end? How will Anthony Davis play? How inspired will he be? How healthy will he be? I think that's definitely going to be the biggest factor because you know AD was a guy who could have been a top player in the league, an MVP candidate for whatever reasons, he didn't ever quite reach that. But you know, I understand why a lot of teams have traded for him. Like you see the potential to be a top two-way player, you know. At his age, I don't know if that's gonna happen, but he could still be a really, really good player, I think. Uh, if he comes in healthy and he has the right mindset and he plays hard. So that's the piece I'd really be interested in, and uh, you know, see if any of those young players take the next step, right? Seems like anytime any of the young players do good, they wind up going somewhere else. So so I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:37

Yeah, that that's a pretty Washington thing to do. And I I'm kind of with you, you know, if if AD can stay upright, stay on the court, it's maybe the max is probably like a six seed, but overall, it's it's it i if he if he's gonna play, you know 60 games, that might happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

Yeah, I could definitely I could definitely see that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:58

Can you just real quick? Can you just mean real quick? I gotta go. I gotta go real quick.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:24

Sorry, but that that'll be edited out of the actual podcast. But um, we'll do three, two, one, back into my reading of Washington. But yeah, if as long as he plays 60 games or so, I think that they can be a six-eight or so. But um, is that kind of what your expectation is for Washington?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

If we yeah, I think Washington is uh one of the most entertaining. Well, I want to say entertaining, but most interesting teams that you know are probably not gonna make any kind of bets, predictions, anything like that, but really just kind of want to see them play early and get a read on how good or bad this team could wind up being. So that's the team that I think is most interesting next year with the mix of the number one pick and then you know, two big star players that are gonna be coming in after not playing.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

Do you see any world where um where Washington does trade that first overall pick?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:27

I mean, I don't think that they would, um, but again, you know, I think a lot of that depends on how high their front office is on some of these other guys, and then, like you mentioned, is anybody falling in love with AJ and making a crazy offer, right? Because you never know what somebody's going to offer. I mean, look at the Herschel Walker trade that people bring up from the NFL years ago, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

Ricky Williams, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

You know, somebody really wants a guy, and you know, by the way, I don't really fault Mike Dick on that. Like, that's the guy you really wanted, right? So, well, the price seems high, you know, he eventually had some really good seasons. Unfortunately, they were in Miami, but uh he got the guy that he wanted, and that should be the most important thing is you know, if they love AJ though, I think they stay at number one, and you you want to take the guy that you think is the best guy when you have that opportunity, because Washington typically is only going to get somebody via that opportunity, right? How often has Washington brought in some big name free agent that was young and good and on the top of their game and a top player? You know, a lot of the guys they got were drafted or trade or signed when they were old because that's where they could go and still get a lot of money.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:58

Yeah, and I mean it seems like that's actually what Watson's done, like football and basketball. Like that's kind of been that's kind of been their bread and butter, is old guys who nobody wants and we'll pay you to be here. Um and the Ricky Williams one, when you mentioned that is I do understand why these front offices have their conviction of why they want to move up to get certain players, and I understand why you'd want Ricky Williams, but their thing too is like the timing of when that happened matters because if you do that for any running back today, you are fired the moment the pick is in.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:36

100%, you know, uh a different game where you know that position is definitely not valued the same way as it was then, and even then, you know, it was a crazy move that was you know ridiculed and looked at differently because you're giving up the opportunity of you know seven picks or whatever it was, I don't remember the exact number. It's a lot of picks. But what people don't always do on the flip side of that is look at who those other seven picks are. So I think when you look at that, you also realize like, hmm, yeah, Ricky Williams was definitely better than those seven guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:14

But well, then you figure like Washington again with the RG3 trade and what those guys turned into, and what the Rams brought everybody out for the coin flip with Washington that year, that was hilarious. Everybody who that they picked up from that trade was an honorary captain for the coin flip. That was some next level trolling.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:36

Absolutely. Now, I have one question for you on that, though, because uh I know a lot of people don't agree with this, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on RG3. If he didn't get hurt, because I think people underrate how good he really played that first year when he was in Washington. Obviously, he was a totally different quarterback when he didn't have that threat of that same kind of speed and running ability, right? Because you know, his running ability is what made guys open for him to be able to pass that way, you know, as kind of a uh a dual threat. Lamar Jackson-esque, right, and he was he had he was really fast. What what's your thought on how he would have ended up if he didn't get hurt? Because he did have that one really good year, and then obviously never the same, uh, even close once he didn't have the same threat with his legs.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

I mean, it's obviously it's really difficult to be able to kind of find out where I would land on that, but there's part of me that feels that it would have been very similar. I know I said Lamar, but to Lamar Jackson's career, where Lamar has not, I don't care what anybody says, the Baltimore Ravens, even though they have addressed the weakness in the room, they haven't really addressed the weakness in the room. Just because you draft wide receivers in the first round, doesn't mean you're getting the right guy. And it's kind of the same thing with with Washington, is that was a great rookie season for um for RG3. And I do believe that had Washington actually done what they were supposed to do and build around him, that he would have a similar career as RG or as a as Lamar Jackson. I think he probably would have had a couple MVPs and been a solid guy, but you're also you're also like you hit the nail around the head. It's like when you take away the thing that makes you who you are, are you able to adjust to be the quarterback? And that's what I get a lot of heat for being a bad Bills fan because I think that people ride up on Josh Allen way too much. Um but the thing is that he evolved into being a legitimate thrower of the football. Oh, yeah. And if you if you if he was just the big burly running quarterback, then no, I feel like he'd he'd be out of the league relatively soon. But he worked on a craft that was that was required. And we saw what Lamar Jackson even looks like when he was hampered by injuries, is that if you don't have that threat, you're because the argument two years ago was that he was the most accurate passer in NFL history, and it's like, yeah, but if you take away the thing that's the real threat, those numbers don't look the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:33

So right, you're the most accurate in terms of percentage-wise, as a result of the dual threat that you have that you know enhances your ability to throw because guys are more open because the threat your legs present.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:50

Exactly. And that's always been my argument with Lamar is that if you're asking me, because we get in those debates about who's a better quarterback between you know Burrow and honestly, I'm I'm kind of over having these discussions about Joe Burrow and and Justin Herbert. I'm kind of personally over them, but that's just me as a as a Bills fan. Um, because again, like Rings culture, like why are why are we putting Joe why are we putting Joe Burrow on a on a pedestal where he's missed the playoffs the last three years and Justin Herbert wets the bat every time? There's always something where you go, why are you guys putting them here and you know the guy? That's the whole reason why the goat debate is what it is, because nobody really it's it's Jordan and Braun and everybody else you know isn't as good as them, so you put them higher on the level than you usually would. Um sorry, I got a little bit off topic, but with um like Lamar, I think that he's a great quarterback, but I wouldn't want him in Buffalo. It doesn't, it doesn't match what they it actually I think that bad because James Cook is really good, the offensive line is really good, and now that you've got DJ Moore. Actually, now I think about it, I probably would rather have Lamar Jackson than Josh Allen in that particular scenario, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:05

Well, that's pretty crazy with uh you know as a Bills fan, because you know, I mean Josh Allen is definitely one of those guys you could make an argument for is the top guy doing it right now, or well, you know, in that oh for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:20

I think that the thing for me is that because we talked about like do you actually watch the games? I feel like people love Josh Allen because of the fantasy aspect that he brings. He has yeah, the the crazy highlights, he has the ridiculous highs, right? I have I've caught a lot of flack for this comparison, but I say that he's basically white Jameis Winston, where I see there's five.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:43

I know where you're going with this.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:45

Five plays a game. I go, there's nobody on planet earth that makes that play. And then I go, there's five, there are five plays a game where I go, nobody on planet earth can make that play.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:56

Yeah, I I get, you know, obviously he's a better quarterback than uh, you know, Jameis Winston, but for sure. I get what you're saying with the the hot and cold, you know, maybe not to the degree it is Winston, but like you said, he can do some stuff, and you're like, wow, this guy's the best quarterback in the league. And then you are on the Bills train and you're watching a game and you're like, What happened to this guy? This guy just looked like the best quarterback going, and now he just made like three three bad interceptions, and it should have been a fourth, but the guy didn't catch it, or you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:34

And that is something that I bring up that I brought up on. I've had three different renditions of this podcast, and this is the latest one, where I have said that interceptable passes mean something to me, and it doesn't appear to matter to anybody else. And people say, Well, did you see his stat line? I said, Yeah, I saw his statine. I also saw the game. He got lucky that four balls were not picked off, like the decision making or the ball placement. Just because the situation ended in your favor does not mean you made the right decision.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:06

Yeah, and unfortunately, they can't have a stat for everything. Because I've had this discussion with people, you know, sometimes before, you know, yeah, like a category of like, you know, bad ball thrown or terrible ball thrown. Because, like you said, sometimes someone is just way off the mark making some terrible throws, but they got bailed out by the wide receiver, or the guy dropped an easy pick six for whatever reason, and then you have another guy. You know, it looks like he had a bad game, he threw two interceptions, but one was a pass through a wide receiver's hands, and you know, the other one was some kind of miscommunication. Right. And now he's got two picks, and you know, both the passes should have been positive plays, and it's completely negative. So, you know, it goes back to just watching the actual games.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:59

Yeah, because I mean they're like to me, stat lines are one of the they can help paint a picture, but they don't really tell the whole story. It it is really just like reading the back of a book. You have no idea how the story goes, you know what the ending is, but how do the characters build up? How did the game actually go? Like you said, two interceptions in a game is much different than you also mentioned it earlier with the whole Dan Marino throwing for 5,000 yards back in the 80s. Was I'm so tired of people using completion percentage as like a crutch for how accurate a quarterback is when 65-70 percent of yeah, 65% of your throws are all before six yards of line of scrimmage or like six yards afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:47

I exactly in the basic context of these things that make a huge difference when a lot of passes were 20 yards down the field back you know back in the day, and now it's all this stuff you know inside five, six yards that should be completed almost all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:08

Or that there's always the great um this guy's off to a hot start, but yeah, you threw two bubble screens, and one of them he was able to break a tackle from a corner, he yakked it up for 80 yards and got a tug. Like those those things bother me, and this is why I'm I've this is our first interaction talking, and I've I've really enjoyed having a conversation with somebody. It feels like we kind of have a similar viewpoint of even I don't really know all the ins and outs of like your fanhood and and so on and so forth, but it feels like we kind of view things through the same lens, kind of.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:42

Yeah, definitely seen a lot of uh good good similarities, and it makes it really fun just to talk about sports in general because you know, like you said, you know, stats I do believe are important, but they're good to back up what you actually see in the game, you know, because you need to have the context between what happened, and you say, hey, well, you know, this kind of shows what I'm talking about as compared to just looking at the stats and making an opinion about something you didn't even watch, or just caught the highlights on, because that's another thing you'll see, especially you know, younger guys will be telling me about people that I watched play all their games. No, this guy was better and this and that. It's like, well, he might have had better highlights and he might have had a better bag or different ways to score, but it definitely didn't mean he was more efficient or better or you know, did more to win games than you know, player X.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:38

And I think that one of the most important things for me, just like just being on this planet for 42 years. There's part of me that goes, it's okay that part of why you feel the way you feel is because of the feelings, right? Like that's one of the reasons why some of the people put Jordan on this pedestal is because if they were slightly older than me, if they're in their 50s or you know, 60s or whatever, they saw it. That was Blight Jesus. Like that was that was the guy. And it made you feel a certain way. But just have that be part of your argument. I I have the exact same way, like when I talk about Jim Kelly and Thurman Thomas and Andre Reid, is like I know they're not the best players ever to play for the Buffalo Bills, or they're arguably the best players at their positions for the Buffalo Bills, if you will. But it's still, I don't put them in this pantheon of players at their positions of all time. I am still biased, but I'm I'm up front and say it was a feel-good for me. Like it made me feel a certain way. Same thing with Chuck, as my favorite basketball player, just watching him do what he did at his size. I I will defend that guy, but I I'm honest with myself and the people that I have on here is I'm not I'm not gonna hide behind a shield or a keyboard and pretend that what I'm what I'm telling you is not somewhat draped in my own personal feelings as opposed to stats or what I can prove something that's tangible. It's intangible, but it's mine.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:00

Yeah, and that's the thing when you have these conversations, is you know, everyone has a different approach or mindset coming into sports, you know. People tend to, human nature have a bias towards the players they liked, grew up watching, whatever the case may be. You know, I have that different kind of odd brain where uh I try to look at everything logically and analytical. So I'm always kind of thinking of those lines. You know, of course, I have my favorite players, but they're usually never you know the star players, anyhow. Like currently, my favorite player is uh Asar Thompson, you know, just the dude, the way he plays defense, the intensity, uh, you know, the grit. Like he's just in playing hard all the time. I love that dude. And you know, I like a lot of the guys that play like that, they're enjoyable for me to watch. There's a whole bunch of them on Oklahoma City, too. Um, so yeah, but you know, you look like you said, you just Gotta kind of go with what you see. Stats are a great, you know, crutch to that win percentage, teams, titles, era, accolades, all that stuff kind of adds into you know how you piece together who you think the best is in whatever sport.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:20

I think that they're like all of those things together are the ingredients for a great meal, right? Like you take a little bit of stats, a little bit of error, you take a little bit of rings culture, you take a little bit of personal accolades, you put them together, and then you have an actual argument as opposed to just 11's more than six, more than four MVPs. Yeah. Like that, there's not a whole lot of nuance. There's not a whole lot of there's not a lot to to attach me to it personally. I'd rather have the conversation as opposed to the here's what I hang my head on, and I'm not moving from it at all. It it's there's there's no there's no fun in that.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:56

Right. And then there's not there's not really any purpose in it either, but you know, I like to come from kind of a different angle too. So, you know, I'm having those conversations. I'm not trying to convince anybody of what I'm thinking, but I do like exchanging ideas with someone that you know, maybe I I see something from a different perspective or learn something a little different from that guy. So I kind of take it all of you know wanting to have those conversations to learn more for myself as opposed to, you know, if someone's stuck on their own opinion and it's not gonna change, I'm not too worried about that. But you know, are are they going to make good arguments that are entertaining and fun to have? Or are they just gonna kind of point to a couple of things and you know, then I can just kind of go on my way, like okay, this conversation is not worth having.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:49

And and before we hang it up for the day, the you brought up other things we talked about. That was sports, but in passing, you kind of layered it with you know politics and you know other other things as far as the I stay on this side of the hill. Yeah, there's nothing you can say or do that's gonna change my mind on it. And uh, we don't really dive into like the political stuff, because I I'm no politician, but um but I have a lot of the same views about politics and news that I do about sports. So like if you if you and being a former military, I feel like there are some other interesting talking points that we could also bring up if you have if you want an outlet to be able to bring up or to be able to talk those things out as well in real time. We can kind of do like a hodgepodge of sports and the things that are maybe that are on your mind as far as the way where we are in the current country and political landscape. I think that that might be a fun, a fun thing to do at one point as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:52

Sure, absolutely. Uh I definitely appreciate uh getting on here. Um, you know, it is always good to have a nice conversation with current events and sports and what's going on, and uh just especially someone open-minded that clearly puts the same kind of energy and uh enjoyment into sports that I have too. So it was really great. I appreciate you having me on, and I definitely enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:20

Yeah, you as well, man. I really it's it's kind of weird the people that I've met in the uh sorry, flu game. We're still we'll still we're still trying to power through it. And luckily I have that mute button because it'd be awful for the radio audience later. Um, but no, I I show the same sentiments I like to have people on who are open to conversations, and you know, we can disagree on things, but are we overall going to be able to have an intelligent conversation and a back and forth and an eye-opening experience? So for for somebody who I've never met until or talked to, literally until I would say an hour and 45 minutes ago, I had a really good time, and I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to to want to be on here as well, Pete.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:06

Yeah, absolutely, man. Uh, anytime, and uh I appreciate you having me on. And uh, if you get a chance, uh check me out. Like I said, I don't drop things regular or anything, but something strikes my mind and I decide to make a video. You know, it's kind of my little outlet. I really just do YouTube and it's more just kind of do it for me. I got videos, I pretty much talk about stuff MBA, UFC, NFL are the main ones, and then occasionally I'll I'll kind of drift out of my lane on other sports type stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:38

What I'll need to do is um I have some of my buddies who are really into MA. Unfortunately, it's just not a it's not really a sport that I've really that's gravitated towards me. But I do have a lot of people that are that are friends of mine who have been on the show beforehand, that that's kind of their wheelhouse as well. Um so if you're open to talking to other people across the country and getting getting that together, I think that would be a really fun kind of launch point for for for that. Because again, I'm not gonna bring much to it, but I I can I'll I'll uh I'll just be the narrator. I'll give you guys the questions, and you guys can all just have that in the octagon.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:19

Yeah, too easy, man. Just let me know. Thanks for having me on, brother.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:23

Absolutely will do. That was Peter the Great Sports Debates here on Facebook. And what we'll do is uh afterwards, we'll go ahead and drop your link to the page on the Sports Avengers so people can know where to find you, and we'll get your YouTube channel on there as well. You guys know the drill. Stay up, stay blessed, and we'll catch you guys on the next one.