CEO TALK with Martijn Rozemuller - #2 - January 2026

In this founder-to-founder conversation, Martijn Rozemuller, CEO of VanEck Europe, joins Steffen Scheuble (Founder & CEO of Solactive) in our Frankfurt studio to talk about the realities of building and scaling a business: navigating market crises, trading versus investing, and the growing importance of financial education.

Martijn reflects on his journey from high-frequency trading to founding an ETF business in the middle of a financial crisis. He shares insights on long-term partnerships, discussing what helps a business relationship endure, what creates friction, and how trust is built through challenging phases. Along the way, he unpacks lessons on leadership and business character, explaining why kindness should never be confused with weakness. Adding a personal touch, his co-founder Gijs Koning joins via surprise video messages, sharing insights from their years of collaboration.

Above all, this conversation is about discipline, long-term thinking, and the personal and professional decisions required to build something that lasts.

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CEO Talk is our monthly chat hosted by Steffen Scheuble, Founder & CEO of Solactive, an international index provider.

Watch the episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@solactiveag
Want to learn more about Solactive: https://www.solactive.com

Follow Steffen Scheuble on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steffen-scheuble-63849813/

Follow Solactive on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/solactive/

Transcript

0:04

Welcome to our second edition of our CEO podcast. And I'm really happy to welcome a guest from the Netherlands Martijn Rozemuller! I hope the pronunciation was good enough that you're not upset at the beginning of the interview. It was perfect. Okay, excellent. For those who don't know Martijn yet, and I'm pretty sure everyone in the ETF industry knows him. I want to give you some background. Martijn started his career roughly 30 years ago in the high frequency trading business at Optiver. Then later on moved and started his own ETF company called Think ETF’s. Before at the end, he sold the company to a very well-known friend in the industry, Jan van Eck, and his ETF company in the US. So quite a journey behind you. Very welcome here in Frankfurt. I hope you had a good journey to come here. Yeah, it was perfect and well, thanks for having me. It's an honor and a pleasure. I think we're gonna have some fun. Perfect. And I guess we all agreed we will fake all of that at the beginning. Of course. Happy new year, Martijn. Happy new year, Steffen. Happy new year. How was your 2025? I know it was for many, many people in the industry a very intensive year. What have been the highlights for you? Did you have any lowlights? So tell us about your 2025. Yeah, it was certainly intense. I was a little bit disappointed you don't have a makeup artist because then we could make me look a little bit less exhausted. But no, it felt like a really intensive year. There were definitely a lot of highlights. Maybe 1 or 2 things I could have done better… So let me start with some of the highlights. When I ended 2024 I told my team we had a really good year in 2024. So let's manage our own expectations. Not every year is going to be this good. And then 2025 turned out to be even way better than 24. So I guess that in itself already is a highlight. Looking at some of the products. Obviously defense was a big, big theme this year. We were in a sense lucky enough to be first to markets to be at the right place at the right time. Obviously it wasn't entirely luck. We really made an effort to be first to market. It's a big hats off to my team for pulling that off because it’s obviously not easy. And if one person knows it's you, it's sometimes difficult. You have to deal with all sorts of things to make that happen. But that was something that worked really well in 2025. We had definitely some other products that got good attention. I think the whole AI hype that really took off definitely was in our advantage. And not just with one product. We obviously have, like a semiconductor ETF. But we have some stuff like the nuclear ETF for instance, that really took off on the basically same idea. Connected to our artificial intelligence, the electricity needs. So it was really, really good. And now I have to think of something maybe that wasn't so good right now. One lowlight, at least? I guess the one lowlight that I can think of is, we had a team event. We brought the whole team to Vilamoura in Portugal. And I guess the big lowlight was that it wasn't long enough. We should have spent more than the weekend that we did. You’re a little bit of a sales person. So, Excellent. I want to start looking a little bit at the beginning of your career. Yeah. When I read your bio you started in high frequency trading. Yep. Started Think ETF’s in 2009, in the middle of the financial crisis. Seriously? Why? That's a question that I've asked myself a couple of times as well, especially in that period, because I was kind of used to a rational world. To me, especially within Optiver, great firm. I learned so much there. And one of the things I learned is if you have a really good idea, there's resources to do it. If you work hard you just manage to build the idea. That's what I was used to. And then with the ETF firm, when starting Think ETF’s I had a really good idea. And I also had some funding and some resources. So I figured this is going to be a success maybe next year. And so we started doing it just to discover that there were a lot of hurdles along the way. And yes I did ask myself a number of times why on earth did I decide to set up my own business when I was comfortably making money at Optiver. It was challenging. It was fun. Why did I have to do this? But then again. Well, luckily it worked out in the end. I was speculating a little bit. You're very active in financial education. That's a very big topic for you. Absolutely! At the bottom of your heart. Yeah. I'm pretty sure you will not explain to any retail investor High frequency trading, day trading… because at the end in the longterm you will lose money. I guess we all know that. Absolutely. It wasn’t that you had a big loss in Optiver or anything like that. No, but people usually confuse and I'm sure you're not one of those people, but some people confuse trading and investing and they're very different things. But having the knowledge you learn as a trader is definitely helpful. For a couple of reasons. And also because it allowed me to sometimes very truthfully warn people on mistakes that I made in the past. Because as a trader I too was a little bit confused. And I thought I would also be a really good investor and I would take way too much risk. Then as a trader it always worked out because arbitrage is very different than taking a real position. So as an investor I made some mistakes in my days being way too invested in one company. Seeing it go down, not wanting to admit that you're wrong. So you basically start hoping. Well, hope is never a strategy. So there was a lot of mistakes I made that I can now use to educate people. So you're in the same camp like everyone. I have the same experience at the beginning. So I started to invest back in ‘98 similar topics. I was confident that was the right stock that I picked. And you wait and we call it in germany sometimes ‘Depotleichen’. Yeah. At the end stocks that have lost so much value but you still keep them. So at the end no chance to ever get your money back. So similar experience is probably on your end as well. You've not started Think ETF’s alone. You’ve got a very important person next to you. Gijs Koning, your business partner, your partner in crime at Optiver as well. Yeah, we've known each other for a really long time. And we've become good friends. Yeah. it's good to have him. It would not have been possible, to do any of this alone. Two alpha males in one company. How does that work? This is new to me! I guess in your case there's only one alpha male, right? Well, we've got a few more. I guess in our case somehow… Definitely we have the same background, that's for sure. High frequency traders are usually not known to be very meek or silent people. We definitely have that in common. But I also think that we are complementary in a number of ways. So I guess that is what makes it work. We're different enough to be compatible. Excellent. Let's start with a bit into the details. Oh, boy. Should I worry? Yeah. Where different? Tell us a little bit more. First of all, it's almost like Laurel and Hardy. He's quite tall and thin. I'm a little shorter. Let's leave it at that. We love good food! Exactly. So there's definitely that difference. But also I think and this is probably something that grew over time when we started Think ETF’s we kind of knew everything about sort of the back office. And we would both be able to do that. A lot of the products, especially the first ones we basically thought of and designed together. But then one of us had to go out and sell them. And I guess for me that was the most sort of natural thing. I think I was kind of used to… At Optiver already at some point we had to pick someone who would talk to the media. And somehow people thought it was a good idea that I did it. So apparently there is something that helps me to convey the message. And I guess that's what made me become more like the front end of the company. And Gijs is very much focusing on the whole portfolio management and operations stuff. Also textile fees. I guess in the end he's just better with numbers and maybe I'm better with people, I don't know. And you and I we talk. We just talk a lot. Yes! So there we go. We asked Gijs, and that's a little bit of a surprise to you! Ahead of the interview we have quickly interviewed Gijs. And the first question that we've asked him is‘What is Martijn's superpower?’ So let's listen to what he said. He is very friendly. He can be friends with everybody. Everybody likes him and he seems to like everybody. I know there are people who don't like me, for example, and I don't care. Because I don’t like them as well. But he can be friends with everybody. I guess it's kind of true. You've never had a person that you didn't like? An expensive custodian? And expensive index provider? Any battles that you had to fight? There's definitely a few people that I've come across during the last 30 years that I would not go out with to have a drink. But it's only a few people. And I always give people the benefit of the doubt at first. Because obviously, I guess for everyone, there is sort of a common rule. When you meet new people on first sight you always have sort of a fixed mindset. But I'm the kind of person that would always give someone the benefit of the doubt, even though if I meet someone, I may think he seems a bit boring, or he seems a bit aggressive. But I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt first. And after a while if my opinion still hasn't changed then obviously I draw my conclusions. But I do get along with many people and I think if you give people a chance they usually are able to give you a positive surprise. And sometimes, very few times, people have given me a negative surprise. And then I can be very binary. It's kind of either I love you or I don't. And if I don't then we probably never speak again. We've got a similar rule within Solactive. In every New Joiners Session I always say one of the principles is ‘We help unconditional’. So at the end if a business client has a need, if anyone needs something we always help unconditional because at the end there are two outcomes. Either at some point in time you’ve got payback time and you need something as well. Yeah. Or the other way around, you find out that the person is not as we expected. Then it's good to find that out sooner than later as well. And we also say in that meeting we apply that to private life as well. I cannot force anyone to apply that. But at the end it's something that I'm doing. So it looks like a very, very similar rule. It is. So talking about strengths and your business partner Gijs… What are the sweet spots of Gijs where he’s balancing a little bit your weaknesses. I guess as he mentioned in the video he can be more direct and has less patients maybe with people. But he has a lot of passion and focus when it comes to numbers. To tax matters, to legal stuff. He's the kind of guy that will really dive into the detail where I tend to get a little bit bored when it comes to too much reading or… he's the kind of guy that will meticulously go through something, find the tiniest mistake. He's very much into detail, very disciplined. So yeah, that's definitely sort of where he complements my shortcomings. Solactive wouldn't be in business if I would still be involved in index calculation to be honest. So, similar as well. We need the numbers guys. We need the guys who are really taking care of the details. We asked him a second question. One word that overall describes Martijn. The word I have is friend. To explain this… We are colleagues, but we are colleagues since 1996. So way before we started our company together I started at a trading firm called Optiver and Martijn is one year older than I am and he was already working there. So we are business partners let's say for almost 30 years. But one thing that also is important for our success is that we’re also friends. At a certain Martijn stopped working for Optiver. And I still worked there. Like on a quarterly basis we had dinner together and stuff like that. So we were besides colleagues we were also friends and we still are. I think that's important that we're not only business partners but also friends. I assume that there might have been times that have been hard. Perhaps back in the days in 2009, 2010. Challenges? Will we ever make it? And so on. How did the friendship survive all of these times? I can imagine it's tough. I think in a sense you're right. Obviously when things are easy, it's also easy to be friends. Right. But then again somehow the opposite is also true. When things are really hard, you may even need each other more. And basically in our case it was us against them. So, yeah, it wasn't always a lot of fun in the office before things started to work out. But we never really took it out on each other. It was always us against them. And I think to a certain extent it still is. The ETF industry as a whole has grown obviously tremendously since we started in 2009. But we're still competitive enough to basically want to see more growth. Comparing Europe to the U.S. I think clearly shows that the ETF industry can grow at least two- or threefold in the next 5 to 10 years. So there are still so much to do. And it's I think in essence also something that Gijs and myself share… It's not just about business. It's not just about money. It's also about the belief that we actually make a difference. Combined Gijs and I myself have 11 children so we have a good reason to care for the future of society. And I think one of the big challenges of the era where we are in, and I do not just mean this couple of years but like the decades that we are in. One of the big challenges is the difference between rich and poor. And there's many people in Europe that have it far less good than we do. And I think one of the ways that I can explain to my kids what the mission of a company like VanECK is, that we help small retail investors to build a better financial future by bringing them products with good diversification at low cost, easy to use. So, yes, I think that helps us also through the difficult times, the belief that we are actually making a difference. And yeah, I'm very much looking forward to keep doing that. We are going a little bit off of the script but I think it's a very interesting topic. Is the financial education and the way how you can enable retail investors, big and small, to invest their own money into assets… Is that one way to overcome the challenging times in politics these days? We've got split societies in many countries and so on. Is that one of your answers that you would pick? Yes, it is. And actually I was in Brussels earlier this week and I was invited by the Dutch Ministry of Finance. They have like a permanent representation there. They wanted to organize an event to get across to Brussels or to the European Committee basically the views of the Dutch government. And it ways about retail, investment strategy, about capital markets union, about ways that European politicians and European governments, and the European Committee, try to incentivize people across Europe to start investing. And this obviously is a very new situation. Because you and I were basically used to regulators that are very firm on warning people.‘Be careful, you can lose all your money.’ And I've been always fighting that. And my main tool was education. Trying to make people see that of course there are dangerous investment products out there and you have to be careful. But there's also good products. And if you use good products and you have a sensible long term strategy, then investing isn't anything like gambling at all. Even though some people think so. What I took out of the event was actually a lot of optimism. One of the regulators literally said‘Let's make the good choice the easy choice.’‘Let's make it easier for people to start investing the right way.’ And mind you, there's obviously still wrong ways to do it. But I thought that was really good. And I think, just by myself, and just by doing education, we are not going to change society. But if we do this and then governments and regulators also step in and help us create sort of environments where it becomes easier and safer to invest, then I think we may be able to change it. And it will still take 10 or 20 years, maybe even 30. But if we keep doing it and we do it all together, it will work. I'm always thinking about what's next for me if I ever exit Solactive? And sometimes I'm thinking about‘Should I go into politics?’ If I’m complaining all the time should I try to do something for the better? Usually I'm thinking about it for 3 or 4 seconds and then it's away and I just say, let’s continue. Is that an option for you as well? Thinking about politics? I've definitely thought about it. And not just because of the reasons I just mentioned. Also I have a very socially engaged wife. She’s on the site where she helps children in need. She helps families in need. And also in her profession she sometimes sees things where she thinks‘How come governments haven't got better policies or better rules in place?’ And then sometimes we discuss. Should we try to do that? But also in our case usually the conclusion is it's probably better to try to change things from the current position, from a position where you're really good at. I think I would probably become quite frustrated quite soon if I went into politics because things work quite differently there. And you have these people that are elected every four years and sometimes even sooner, and then they want to make changes. No, I think I'm better off where I am today. And I hopefully can make more of a difference in my current position. So let’s agree if we ever change our minds let’s sit down together in one room and figure out if there's something we can do together. Deal! Because I guess it's something where… in the political landscape we need to have some changes. And I guess you and I, we might be at some point in time, in our life where we don't need to be reelected. We need to do something that is right for the long term. And to be honest it's my personal view. It's something that the political landscape in Germany, in Europe, all around the world really needs. Let's go back. We talked about your potential political career towards the end of your life, in a couple of decades. Yep. Yep. Let's go back to 2009. The challenges starting a company. Yeah. So tell us, what was the number one challenge back in the days, 2009, started on Greenfield. Here we are. Think ETFs, let's go. What was the number one challenge that was around? The big mistake I guess was the obvious one. Both Gijs and myself came from a trading background. We knew financial markets. We knew products. We had a really good idea to structure ETFs in a more tax efficient way for Dutch investors. That really worked. We could show that it worked and it was all perfect. What we didn't know anything about was sales and marketing. Neither of us had ever been in a sales marketing position. So we simply figured if you have the right products, it will basically sell itself. Well, that was obviously a big mistake because it didn't. And what we also didn't know was that at the time it was very common for an investment product to pay like money to be distributed. And our products, one of the beautiful parts of it was that they were quite cheap. So I would go to a bank and they would say, well, yes, this looks nice, but how are you going to pay us? Because your products are so cheap? And I was like, why would I pay you guys? And they were like, well, yeah, that's how it works. You have to pay us. So the whole retrosession thing was something we completely missed. It did not fit into our business plan at all. So yeah, that was a really hard moment. So we had to think of a way to sell products without having to pay someone. And there were basically two things we did. First of all, we started to work together with a Dutch association of investors. They are called VEB. And they were very educational, very vocal. Obviously they were not in the business of helping us on a commercial side. But they knew ETFs were new. They knew that they were interesting, but they didn't know a lot about them. So they said, well, listen. If you guys do educational events for our members and they had 40 to 50,000 members in the Netherlands, then we will give you the stage. But it has to be educational and no sales. And I still remember the first session we did. I think there was 60 or 70 people in the room. And after I had finished my, educational session one guy stands up. It was a big guy, older guy, and he says, well, I would like to make myself known. He was like one of the board members of VEB. And he was there to check whether I did not do a sales pitch. But he said ‘well done!’ This was very educational. That’s when they really started supporting us, and that helped a little bit. But in the end we also needed one other thing, and that was the distribution. So we ended up making a deal with a local online broker called BinckBank. They're now taken over by Saxo. They basically bought part of the company in exchange for distribution. And that's how we managed to get going. One other thing that we did was talk to the regulator and point out that the system was kind of strange. We knew in the UK at the time, there was already a ban on retrosessions, a ban on kickbacks. And the Dutch regulator… at least they heard us out. I'm not saying we were the reason they changed policies, and it still took about two years, I think. But in the end in the Netherlands, there was also the ban. And that also made it a little bit easier for us to sell the ETFs. Excellent! I assume different times, different challenges. I want to make a little bit the switch. You started as a duo. You've been your own boss. And then at the end at some point in time Jan van Eck, one of the most intellectually educated persons, one of the real visionaries of the ETF industry knocked at the door and just said‘Hey, shall we partner? We want to buy you.’ So now you work for Jan. What has changed? We've talked a while ago in Amsterdam. I still remember that. And at the end you're still an entrepreneur within a big organization. Jan gives you all the freedom. Yes. A few words about Jan. And tell me what has changed today. First of all, Jan did show up at the doorstep. And at the time two of our major shareholders were looking for an exit. Gijs and myself not so much. We still had a lot to do. And our shareholders they had assembled a number of potential buyers. But in VanEcks case, Jan was the only one that showed up himself. He was the only one that really took it personal. And to Gijs and myself that was immediately a very good sign. So we were also invited by Jan to come to New York to see what the business was like there, what the people were like. And his personal and entrepreneurial approach really struck a chord with Gijs and myself. We immediately felt sort of kindred spirits almost. Or maybe not almost. We did feel that it was a really good match. And then we basically ended up in a position where we had to convince our shareholders to go for the VanEck deal. And they were fair enough to realize that if Gijs and myself want to continue the business and wanted to stay on, then obviously we should have sort of the decisive votes if the economics were similar. Close enough. That is what happened then. It's like eight years ago. And when I say that it's eight years ago, it's almost like I have to think about it really eight years? Because it went so smooth. I think the biggest difference for us is that now with Jan backing the business, we finally had the resources to to do what we always wanted to do, which is grow in Europe. And especially the first couple of years after the acquisition, Jan obviously had to put money into Europe to make the business grow. But he wasn't just talk, he actually also did it. And that's something I greatly admire about Jan. And you mentioned obviously he's like a very intellectual guy. He's a really smart guy, but he's also very down to earth. And he's also the kind of guy that will do something on a handshake. If he gives you his word, it's done. So that's how we've been working together. That's what I admire about him. And I'm also quite honest about the fact that the success that we've had in the last couple of years is definitely due to the supports we got after the acquisition. With the former shareholders this would have never happened. So my hat's off to Jan. He knows I really appreciate the cooperation. But yeah that's basically the only thing that changed, the good stuff, the positive stuff. And some people warned me, if you're going to be in business with like a U.S. company, it's going to be old business, and quarterly reports and all of that, very quantitative. Yeah, of course it's quantitative, in a sense. We're dealing with money, right? But it's also not quarterly. Jan is looking at the longer term. I like to think in the family business you should focus on the next generation, not next quarter. And I think that's what he does. It's long term strategy. Very committed, very loyal. I love that. I know Jan for many years, as you know we calculate most of their indices that they're doing. So we get in touch ten, 15 years ago. There's a lot of appreciation for what he has built, how successful he is. So a lot of kudos, I guess, is the new word. Yes, definitely. A lot of kudos! Let's dive step by step a little bit into your private life. We've got a little bit of another question that we asked Gijs. And we asked him if there's one thing he would like to change about Martijn in business life. What is that? What do you think he said? The only thing I could think of is obviously… from the two of us, I'm the guy that travels the most. Because obviously I'm like the front of the business. I think he would urge me to maybe sometimes consider the train instead of the airplane to be more environmentally friendly. He's not the only one. My wife and daughters tell me the same thing. And I try to be a little bit better, but sometimes it's always… Well, that the trade off is obviously the time, and time is valuable too. So I do not always follow their advice. Was that what he said? We are both not time rich. So at the end whatever is the fastest, is the most important. Let's have a look into what he said. Like we say in Dutch‘It's a strength, but also a weakness.’ Sometimes he should be a bit tougher, I think. He can be a bit tougher sometimes. When there are problems with… Sometimes he wants to give in a bit to easy to keep the peace. Let's say so. And like said, strength, weakness… You can combine it. He's very peaceful, and that's a quality. But sometimes also it's weakness. That he thinks , ‘we can do that in negotiations’ and he want to give in a bit too early, I think. And I'm the one‘No, we should show some strength!’‘We're not gonna settle yet.’‘We will negotiate further.’ Stuff like that. It's absolutely true. And this is where we are complimentary, I think. But as Gijs mentioned there is two sides to this. And I think it's a Rihanna lyric that people should never confuse kindness with weakness. I agree. Life as an entrepreneur, life as a CEO sometimes can be hard. You never switch off completely. You always think, what can we do better? What are you doing to switch off your brain? Is it possible? Is it possible at all? I assume you know, we just heard, a lot of kids. Yeah. Does that help? Well, yes and no. Switching off completely is hard. Obviously, if you have also a big family and social life. But it does help in a sense because it obviously shifts your focus to a lot of other things. But yeah, I guess it's true. If you are running a business in a way that I am, and it's more than just a business, we talked about how I perceive our mission and our obligations to society. To me it is more a mission than a business, maybe. Yes. I'm always thinking about that. And the one thing besides my kids and grandchildren that I do to kind of sort of unwind or switch off, is music. Listening to music really helps me. And it was funnily enough, yesterday evening in the hotel I was listening to some music and I was scrolling through some social media. And there was a Dutch neurophysicist professor and she was brought up in a family where her mother was a pianist with classical music. And she told something about a sort of research into how music can soothe your mind and taking out the stress hormone. And really… and that's when it hit me. I've been doing this since I was maybe 12, listening to music in the evening. And it's always like… I don't really listen to classical music, but it's more like Dire Straits or Pink Floyd. So it's also not like hip hop or stuff like that. And it does help me and I can genuinely feel the stress kind of going away. And I do it in the car as well. A lot of people in my position would probably listen to business news radio when they're driving, and I put on some Mark Knopfler or something to help me find peace. It works. Cars you mentioned it, another passion. Yeah. And you told me if you get started about that, it can take a while to get started. Let’s get started. Tell us! Your love about cars. I basically grew up in a garage. My grandfather, he was one of the first Volkswagen dealers in the Netherlands. My father together with his older brother, took over the business. And maybe to a certain point I was maybe expected to continue the family tradition, but I ended up somewhere else. But yes, I did grew up around cars. Obviously one of my first jobs was washing cars. I used to work at the petrol station. I used to work in the showroom because obviously at some point you want to get to know the whole company. And maybe working in a showroom as sort of a salesman, sales boy basically at that time, maybe also formed me a little bit, on my commercial side and my way of dealing with people. So cars have always been important to me. And as a little boy… there weren't many Dutch car magazines so I used to read the German ones. Auto, Motor and Sport. Whenever a new magazine came in my father and I, we used to buy them on Saturday. I couldn't wait for him to finish. I could start reading it. And up until today, I still love cars. Do you have a most favorite car? I remember one of the first things in my childhood is my dad had what is called the Bulli. The Volkswagen. And he restructured the whole car so that at the end we can travel with four people. My younger brother, the parents. We've done road trips from Stuttgart to Morocco all the way down, road trips to Turkey and so on. Any specific car? I know Bulli is something that is close to your heart as well. Yeah, definitely! My father and his brother, they sold the family business many years ago, but they kept a number of old Volkswagens. One is called the California Van. It's one of those really nice ones. And then they have like the Käfer, the one with the split window. So, yes. Those older classical Volkswagens have a place in my heart. It's nostalgia, of course. Then I'm also drawn to faster cars. Germany was always magical to me because in Germany you could drive as fast as you wanted. In the Netherlands obviously there it was a bit different. So any excuse I would have to go to Germany, I would take. Also with the family a lot of summer holidays we would go maybe to Tuscany because conveniently you could drive through Germany to get there. And I really have a couple of favorite cars. It's not just one. It's always easy or difficult to choose, but I really like Porsches, especially the 911 Turbo. I think that's an iconic car. That has changed so much since the first one was produced in 1974 or 5. But until today it kept being sort of the benchmark in that category. It's beautiful car and also very high quality. Then I like Audi. I like Audis a lot. My grandfather started as a Volkswagen dealer but Audi quite soon came into the mix. Porsche as well, by the way. In the end they also had the Porsche dealership. That's kind of… I'm really into German cars. You can say that. And then specifically Audi and Porsche. I see. So we know we have to fake the interview. We are in 2026! Towards the end of last year there was you know a new regulation where at the end it's softening a little bit the rules for combustion engines. So at the end must be… and keep it short because I don't want to be in trouble with your wife and your daughter. The combustion engine is postponed a little bit. I'm quite happy. Yeah, I'm quite happy with that. Because I think in the end, when I bought my last car, I bought a new car earlier this year, I sort of wanted to have a similar car that I had before, but they weren't making those anymore. You could only get it as a hybrid. What to me sounded so stupid. I'm not against hybrids or electric cars per se, but I am against that if it's irrational. So if you have like a Porsche Cayenne Turbo which is a car that people buy not for ESG reasons. If you add a battery pack you add a couple of electronic engines, you'll increase the weight of the car, by 3 or 400 kilos. Most people will still mainly use the petrol engine that's also in there. But now the petrol engine has to take on a couple of hundred extra kilos. It will use more petrol, it'll be less economical, it’s worse for the roads because the car's heavier. It doesn't really make any sense to me. It should be either completely electric, emission free or completely petrol. But then let's focus on making the petrol engine more efficient, less polluting. And if you look at what we've achieved over the last 30 or 40 years, that's where engines have become far less polluting. It's already a lot better. So that will be my take on it. And I'm happy that we're able to enjoy the sound of petrol engines a little bit longer. And if governments think it's better that they are less used, maybe they should become more expensive. Put an extra tax on gasoline. I'm sure not everybody will like me saying that. But if there is an alternative to get from A to B that isvery cheap, then for the people that don't want to spend money on transportation they can use the cheap alternative. Because apparently they don't really care for the petrol cars. And if you do care for that part well then maybe it's also partly a hobby. And if it's a hobby it's good. It's not too bad if it costs a little bit of money. Yeah I agree, I agree. Let's see. Last and final question. I need some advice. Okay. I'm doing with a very close friend of mine once a year a sports cultural foodie trip where we go to a fancy place to see some fancy sports event. We've been, in the US, college football. We've just been in Japan last year, 2025, to see the sumo. Hector just mentioned rugby in Australia is one of the matches. Let's see if it has something to do with cars. Yes. What is your number one event that you recommend to me. What I've done a couple of times over the last 20 years, and by couple I'll probably mean 2 or 3. So not even that often. I'm actually thinking about doing it again myself, is go to Barcelona, formula one race. It's usually somewhere in May. Barcelona obviously has beautiful restaurants. It's beautiful city in May. The climate is also quite nice. The race itself is really cool. And the good thing is, I made this mistake the first time I got there. I thought the easiest way to get somewhere is to take a cab. Well, never do that, especially in Barcelona. There's great public transport. So yeah, I'm very environmentally friendly here as well. Great public transport to the circuit. So it's easy to get there. It's easy to get back to the city, enjoy 1 or 2 fine restaurants. I'm happy to think of a place that I… Well, actually I remember, it's on Avenue Diagonal. It's a restaurant called La Dama. I hope it's still there. I haven't been in a couple of years, but it was magnificent. I can really, really, really, give you this advice. If you don't take it up in 2026, then I will go. Or maybe we both go in and we'll see each other there. Let's see. Great advice, great event. Martijn, thanks a lot for joining us. The beginning of the year here in our Frankfurt office. I really enjoyed the conversation. A lot of background on your founder story, how you have done it, the challenges, how it is to work with a close partner like Gijs. A fantastic person as well! How it is now in the bigger conglomerate. Really? Thanks a lot for being here. I hope you all enjoy the new edition of the podcast. Feel free to watch it on YouTube, on Spotify or wherever. All the regular channels. Thanks a lot for listening to us. I wish you all the best. I wish you all the best. A real pleasure!