About the Podcast and the Women Behind the Pantsuits

Episode 1: About the Podcast and the Women Behind the Pantsuits

In this debut episode of Pantsuits and Lawsuits, Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel and Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes pull back the curtain on why they launched this podcast and the journeys that led them to their roles as state attorneys general. From landmark legal battles to personal motivations, they share the defining moments that shaped their careers, their approach to justice, and their commitment to defending the rights of everyday people. Get to know the AGs beyond the headlines as they set the stage for the candid, insightful conversations to come.

Transcript

EPISODE 1 _ About the Podcast
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AG Kris Mayes: [00:00:00] Welcome to the very first episode of Pantsuits and Lawsuits. I am Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes and I am here with my friend and fellow Attorney General from Michigan, Dana Nessel.

AG Dana Nessel: We know what you're thinking: why are two attorneys generals starting a podcast? Well, we spend a lot of time in the courtroom and in the headlines, but so much of what we do really gets lost in the shuffle of current events.

AG Dana Nessel: Legal matters can take a long time to iron out, and the technical processes make it difficult to follow. If you're not familiar with the courts.

AG Kris Mayes: This is our chance to break it all down, talk about the legal battle shaping our country, and give you an inside look at the work that goes into protecting your rights.

AG Kris Mayes: So let's get started.

AG Kris Mayes: This is our very first episode, and I'm sure a lot of [00:01:00] listeners are wondering why are two attorneys general starting a podcast with everything else on your plates, what made you both decide this was something worth doing? 

AG Dana Nessel: So what, uh, I think we've come to see is that, um, podcasts are a really great way to talk about the work that we're doing in our office.

AG Dana Nessel: And I don't know about you, uh, Kris, but I find that a lot of times people don't even know what the Attorney General in our state does. And so I thought this would be a great opportunity for us to talk about our work, the kinds of things that we do, the kinds of relief that we provide for our state residents in a variety of different areas.

AG Kris Mayes: I think that's, I think that's why we're doing this, Dana, and, and, um, I think it's a brilliant idea and naturally it came from you. So thanks for, you know, thinking about doing this. But, you know, I think it's also a, a great medium and it's a way more and more people are, are getting their news and, and to your point about, um, our [00:02:00] offices and, and ags are incredibly important, uh, positions in state government. Um, I think people know, at least in Arizona, a little bit more about the attorney generalship than they do about what I used to do, which as I used to be at Arizona Corporation Commissioner, which regulates our public utilities.

AG Kris Mayes: But, um, still, yeah, it's, I think it's important to talk about the great work that, that ags do including protecting consumers. Here in Arizona, we also represent all of the state agencies. And then as, as we know, and it's been in the news, we've been, you know, uh, representing the state of Arizona and in litigation against the federal government when it overreaches.

AG Kris Mayes: Yeah. 

AG Dana Nessel: Well, I think that Arizonans and Michiganders really, you know, I want the same thing. And it doesn't matter if, uh, you're bordering with, with Mexico or bordering with, uh, Canada. I mean, I 

AG Kris Mayes: It's true. You've got a border up there too. 

AG Dana Nessel: Yep. Mm-hmm. We definitely do. We definitely [00:03:00] do. And, um, I think it's just the things that you talked about, right?

AG Dana Nessel: They just want, I. Some sanity in these positions and people who just care deeply about protecting, um, the health, the safety, the welfare of, uh, the residents of our state and, and people who feel like somebody's looking out for them. And whether you have, you know, a company that's taking advantage of somebody or a, a predator out there that is committing violent crimes, um, or somebody who's gonna stand up to the utilities, right? Yeah. That's our state. That's a big thing. And I think that given all the recent events, um, with, uh, Donald Trump's second term in office, uh, I think it's more important than ever for people to understand the reasons why we're bringing the kinds of lawsuits that we are and under what circumstances.

AG Dana Nessel: And I, I think this is really sort of, um, a great place for us to have those discussions a little bit more comprehensively than when you're on some local news, uh, or even a [00:04:00] national news outlet and you get cram everything into two minutes. I mean, it's difficult to do. 

AG Kris Mayes: Yeah, it's really, it's almost impossible to do right? And, and it's frustrating because you wanna be able to, to, to, to, to really sort of expand and expound on, on the work we're doing. And I think it's important to be cognizant and aware of the fact that people do get their news in, in a lot of different ways, and media is much more fractured. I mean, you know, I'm a former newspaper reporter, so I actually come out of that industry and, uh, you know, I, I'm a little partial to newspapers, but, you know, that's, that's just not, uh, the only way that people get their news these days. So, you know. 

AG Kris Mayes: My kiddo is super excited about this. We were just talking about that. 

AG Dana Nessel: You gotta roll with the times and, um, if this is how people can best get their news and we can best communicate not just with, um, the constituents that we serve, um, but really people all across the United States [00:05:00] because a lot of these really are not local issues, but they're national issues.

AG Dana Nessel: A lot of our listeners may not be familiar with who we are and how we got here. After all, we're attorneys general from two different states, and each of our paths to this position have been pretty unique. So Chris, I'd love to start with you. What's your origin story? What led you to becoming Attorney General of Arizona?

AG Kris Mayes: Well, I mean I've, uh, I've been really lucky to have a pretty, uh, wild and, you know, diverse life. Probably kind of less traditional than, than most ags, but I started out my career in life in journalism. Then covered politics for the Arizona Republic. I covered John McCain's first campaign for president.

AG Kris Mayes: [00:06:00] During that time, I became the first reporter, the only reporter to be banned from the Straight Talk Express, which is a whole other story. 

AG Dana Nessel: Well, I we at some point. Everybody has gotta hear that story. Yeah, because I definitely wanna hear it. 

AG Kris Mayes: It's a great story. And I love John McCain, uh, loved him and we miss him, but he did ban me from his bus. So, um, in fact, I, I've got a picture somewhere of that, but, uh, of me driving behind the bus. Uh, but anyway, I 

AG Dana Nessel: do you have to have him like ejecting you from the bus because that would be even better. I'd like to see that. 

AG Kris Mayes: No, it's just me in, in, uh, in New Hampshire behind the bus. But anyway. So I did journalism, did journalism, and then went to graduate school in New York. I was a Truman Scholar and took my Truman Scholarship to Columbia. I. Hated New York City. I mean, just, I think there's two kinds of people, people who love New York City and people who just [00:07:00] can't stand. I mean, I just could, it was just not for me. I like, I like the horizon. Anyway, so did that, uh, came home, went to law school, middle of law school, ran into Janet Napolitano, um, on an airplane who was then the Attorney General of Arizona.

AG Kris Mayes: She was running for governor and she said hello to me, uh uh, as she was walking down the aisle of the airplane and I said, hello, and she came back down in the middle of the flight and talked me into being the press secretary on her campaign for governor. 

AG Dana Nessel: Wow. 

AG Kris Mayes: And yeah, and by the end of the flight. And so, um, it was, when I talked about this story, when I talked to students and it was one of those weird fate moments where you decide whether or not to talk to somebody.

AG Kris Mayes: I actually reached up and grabbed her elbow and said, hello and. And, uh, she saw me and then came back down. Anyway, I ended up on her campaign. She ended up winning. She ended up appointing me after [00:08:00] that to the corporation Commission where I served two terms. That's an, as, you know, an elective position out here.

AG Kris Mayes: And, uh. Then I went on for 12 years to be a professor at ASU. And then after that I, I ran for Attorney General. And you know, the rest is history. Won by 280 votes 

AG Dana Nessel: Are you 90? Because that seems like a whole lot of stuff. You look very young for all of those things to have happened in your life. 

AG Kris Mayes: No, I know.

AG Kris Mayes: I don't know. I said it was weird and in wild.

AG Kris Mayes: How about you, Dana? What is your story for how you ended up as the top law enforcement official of the great state of Michigan?

AG Dana Nessel: Yeah, so lifelong, um, Michigander and, um, I went to the University of Michigan. Uh, then I went to, um, Wayne State Law for law school. I initially was really inspired, uh, when I was a kid by "to Kill a [00:09:00] Mockingbird", which many people, of course is, is beloved by many people who went on to become lawyers. And I thought I would become a defense attorney like Atticus Finch. Uh, but they had this great program with the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office that you could be in law school, but also be working at the prosecutor's office and.

AG Dana Nessel: So I worked there through law school and you could literally start trying murder cases as a law school student. And I'm not kidding. I know that sounds scary, but if you were under the supervision of, uh, a licensed attorney, you at a certain point you could start actually getting in there and trying cases.

AG Dana Nessel: So, 

AG Kris Mayes: wow. 

AG Dana Nessel: I mean, it was my third year in law school and, uh, I started working with a, with an attorney on, uh, a serial killer case. And it was a, it was a guy by the name of Benjamin Atkins, who at that time was the fastest moving serial killer in American history. And, uh, he was known as, uh, you know, the Highland Park serial [00:10:00] killer.

AG Dana Nessel: I, I got to, you know like have a really significant role in trying this case. Uh, and I, after that, I mean, I didn't wanna work anyplace else, so, uh, after I graduated and passed the bar, I stayed at that office and stayed there for 11 years. And I just loved being a prosecutor and 

AG Kris Mayes: wow. 

AG Dana Nessel: It, it gave me the opportunity to try every kind of case imaginable.

AG Dana Nessel: Uh, and I really enjoyed it, but at a certain point, unfortunately, you some sort of come to your, uh, to a point in your career where you're like, I would like to be able to, um, feed my children and for them to have a roof over their heads and, uh, possibly even save for retirement one day. And, and sadly, our county prosecutors are woefully underpaid, in my opinion.

AG Dana Nessel: Yeah. So I left and I went into private practice and handled a number of [00:11:00] different types of cases. But what I started to do is, um, by, by default I started to handle a lot of cases that involved discrimination against the L-G-B-T-Q community. Um, and it wasn't that I had any special level of expertise, it's just that we had no rights in our state at all, of any kind. So every case sort of turned into some sort of constitutional challenge because we didn't have any underlying law. And what I found is that a lot of the groups, um, just didn't wanna bring any cases in Michigan 'cause they were so afraid of cases eventually going into the sixth circuit, which then and now is a very, very conservative circuit that doesn't tend to rule in favor of an expansion of L-G-B-T-Q rights.

AG Kris Mayes: Right.

AG Dana Nessel: Uh, so I was that asshole lawyer that was like, you know what michigan? Uh, gays deserve rights too because we were, at the time, there were only a handful of states that didn't [00:12:00] have certain rights, including custodial rights over children or adoption rights. We were way behind the curve. It was like us and Mississippi and like the end in terms of 

AG Kris Mayes: really what?

AG Kris Mayes: Wow. 

AG Dana Nessel: Yeah, it was really bad here. 

AG Kris Mayes: It couldn't have been, be behind Arizona. 

AG Dana Nessel: We were though, 

AG Kris Mayes: were you? Wow. 

AG Dana Nessel: We actually were. Okay. So, um, I started bringing some of these challenges and, um, first a, a case challenging the custody laws in Michigan and later challenging the adoption laws that prohibited same sex couples from adopting together.

AG Dana Nessel: And, uh, eventually it led to a, uh, a challenge to the Michigan marriage ban, which prohibited, um, same sex couples from having marriage rights. And that case just ultimately ended up going to the United States Supreme Court. 

AG Kris Mayes: Wow. 

AG Dana Nessel: But the thing that was important about that case is that we tried it against the.

AG Dana Nessel: Michigan Department [00:13:00] of Attorney General. 

AG Kris Mayes: Oh, 

AG Dana Nessel: and you know I had 

AG Kris Mayes: right.

AG Dana Nessel: During the trial, um, quite, quite frankly, I was just aghast at some of the arguments that were being made on behalf of the people of the state of Michigan using Michigan tax dollars. And some of those arguments were, uh, "gay people are going to hell."

AG Dana Nessel: That's something that all of the expert witnesses agreed on. 

AG Kris Mayes: They actually put that on?

AG Dana Nessel: Testified at trial. 

AG Kris Mayes: No. 

AG Dana Nessel: Paid for by my tax dollars. Anyway, so after we won that case in 2015 mm-hmm. Uh, after that I was like, this is awesome. Like you can do important things as a lawyer, I love it. And, um, just kind of caught the bug of like, it is really, um, an exhilarating feeling to feel like you're making a difference.

AG Dana Nessel: And I thought I could really make a difference for all the people of my state by running for Attorney General. So that's what got me into this position. I.[00:14:00] 

AG Dana Nessel: If I'm not mistaken though, you are, uh, you're a recovering Republican, right? 

AG Kris Mayes: I was. Yes, I am. I was bo I, I spent most of my adult life as a Republican, actually. 

AG Dana Nessel: Okay. But here's my question. 

AG Kris Mayes: Um, yes. 

AG Dana Nessel: You're also a lesbian though, correct? 

AG Kris Mayes: Correct. Yes.

AG Dana Nessel: So I mean, those things, right, 

AG Kris Mayes: those things don't mix. Yeah.

AG Dana Nessel: Yes. And, and that's, that's what I wonder because for me, like I,

AG Kris Mayes: these, these are hard questions, Dana. I didn't think you were gonna ask these hard questions. 

AG Dana Nessel: Well, I mean, I discovered that I was a democrat the same time as I discovered I was a lesbian. And it was because, uh, I was the only kid that had a poster, uh, of Pat Schroeder on my wall as a child. And when I found out that everybody else had Pat Benatar, I, I thought, wow, that seems [00:15:00] unusual. 

AG Kris Mayes: Um, yeah, no, I mean, I just, I, I just always kept those things separate and, and I, I, you know, I'm kind of a, as a, when I was a Republican, I, you know, I was a pretty, um, moderate. Um, pro environment Republican and at that time you could still be that.

AG Kris Mayes: And, uh, you know, if I were, I, if I were a member of Congress or I had something to do with foreign policy, I'd probably be one of those sort, sort of hawkish, pro- military, pro- you know- international involvement Republican. So I guess that's the way, you know, and I'm still that way. 

AG Dana Nessel: Well, even though, uh, you have the distinct honor of having been, uh, thrown off of his bus, John McCain was somebody who I, I always respected.

AG Dana Nessel: Um, I didn't always agree with his policies. But I felt as though he was somebody who, you know, [00:16:00] really just had this intrinsic belief system that wasn't just affiliated with his party. 

AG Kris Mayes: Dana, I can remember, you know, I was a Republican office holder at the same time McCain was. In fact, one of the things I'm proudest of is that when I was on the ballot at the same time, John McCain was, I was the second highest vote getter to John McCain and to only John John McCain.

AG Kris Mayes: So John McCain and Kris Mayes. Republicans on the ballot at the same time. I'll always be proud of that. And I think it's because both of us were able to get Democrats to vote for us, and I think that, and McCain was just willing to do what he thought was right. 

AG Dana Nessel: And I mean, and generally that was throwing you off his bus, is what I'm hearing 

AG Kris Mayes: Also threw me off.

AG Kris Mayes: I mean, well also had 

AG Dana Nessel: kind of a weird dichotomy like he's your hero, but he also hated you.[00:17:00] 

AG Dana Nessel: I think our country is so much stronger when you have, uh, a, a solid Republican party and Democratic party that has various different, um, beliefs and we're, it's not just homogeneous, right? 

AG Kris Mayes: Um, funny story, quick story. I was running as a Republican, my, for the first time, um, Napolitano had appointed me and I had to run in my own right.

AG Kris Mayes: Nine months later, uh, John McCain was being asked to endorse my opponent. I went in to see him. You know, this was two years after he had thrown me off the bus. And um, so I went to see him and I said, "listen Senator, I know there's no way I can ask you to endorse me, but would you please just stay out of my race and, uh, don't endorse this other guy? [00:18:00] 'cause if you do, I'm probably gonna lose. And, and he, I asked him, ultimately, please don't endorse the other guy. And he looked at me and he said, "okay, Kris, that's what I'm gonna do." 

AG Kris Mayes: I think that I might be sitting here with you right now on this podcast because of John McCain and, um, that the rest is probably history is I, you know, these weird moments in your life, right?

AG Kris Mayes: Where you think back on it and you think, well, what if it had gone the other way? What if he had said thumbs down on me? Or if Janet Napolitano hadn't, uh, given me a shot? So, you know.

AG Dana Nessel: That's it for our very first episode of hand suits and lawsuits. We're just getting started and we can't wait to bring you more deep dives into the legal fights that matter the most. 

AG Kris Mayes: Be sure to subscribe and follow us on social and stay informed. Thanks for tuning in. [00:19:00] We'll see you next time.