Litigation 101 & Pig Butchering Scams

Ever wondered how Attorneys General fight harmful policies in court? Or why some lawsuits take years to resolve? In this week’s episode, Michigan AG Dana Nessel and Arizona AG Kris Mayes break down the legal process in a way that makes sense—no law degree required!

We’re kicking things off with "Litigation 101"—a crash course on how legal action serves as a defense, why cases take so long, and what terms like standing actually mean. Then, we dive into a major scam targeting people across the country: “Pig Butchering” scams.

Joining us are Alex Juarez from AARP Arizona and Mark Fetterhoff from the AARP Fraud Watch Network to help you protect both your heart and your wallet from these sophisticated fraud schemes.

Transcript

Episode 2 - Pig Butchering Scams_mixdown
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AG Dana Nessel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Pantsuits and Lawsuits, where we get together for candid conversations about the courts. I'm Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel, and alongside my fellow Attorney General from Arizona, Kris Mayes, we're pulling back the curtain on the legal issues shaping our country. So let's get into it.

AG Dana Nessel: So both of our departments are really focused on protecting consumers and one scam that's been popping up a lot lately for both of our offices is something called pig butchering scams. 

AG Kris Mayes: That's right. On this week's episode, we are really excited to have Alex Juarez from AARP Arizona and Mark Fetterhoff with the AARP Fraud Watch Network here to talk us through these scams and show us how we can protect both our hearts [00:01:00] and our wallets.

AG Dana Nessel: But before we dive into that, we want to start off each episode with something a little bit more topical. And we're hoping this segment will help keep you informed in real time about the complicated happenings of your government. And let's be real. There's been a lot of new executive orders and litigation surrounding these EOs in the past few weeks, and we're sure you have a lot of questions about it.

AG Kris Mayes: Absolutely. But before we get into the specifics, we thought it'd be helpful to take a step back and give you a little litigation 1 0 1. Dana, I know you're gonna love this part. Um, we wanna start by explaining how and why our offices do what we do so you can have a better understanding of the process when we get into the nitty gritty of particular cases.

AG Dana Nessel: All right, Kris, let's get into it. 

AG Kris Mayes: All right.[00:02:00] 

AG Dana Nessel: So let's talk a little bit about sort of the concept of legal action as a defense. 

AG Kris Mayes: Well, I mean, I think oftentimes it means an entity or a defendant is going to try to use legal action or, or the threat of litigation as a defense. 

AG Dana Nessel: Yeah, and I think that, uh, a lot of people see it as legal battles serving as a proactive way to defend against harmful policies or actions, and we're both members of the Democratic Attorneys General.

AG Kris Mayes: You are part of a small group of AGs who were there for the first go round, right? I mean, there's not very many. 

AG Dana Nessel: I was and I, I ran specifically as a way to, to counteract what I saw as just horrific actions being taken by the federal government trespassing over the rights of the people of my state. And when I thought about what can I do to [00:03:00] fight back, I know personally, I mean, I, I started going to protests all the time.

AG Kris Mayes: Wow. 

AG Dana Nessel: That's what I think a lot of us did. And I had my pussy hat, you know, uh, even though it, I mean, it didn't look great on me or anything. I have a weird size head. Um, and then the other problem that I had with, um, going to protest, I didn't think that Trump cared at all, no matter how many people were protesting.

AG Dana Nessel: So that wasn't really. As effective as I had hoped alone, not that it wasn't impactful, but by itself, it didn't seem to be stemming the tide of illegal actions by the federal government. And I saw that the Democratic attorneys general were bringing these lawsuits and being highly effective. And so one of the things that we always bragged about was that we were successful in over 80 percent of the lawsuits that the Dem AGs brought. And when I say, my definition of success, I guess, was that we stopped the bad thing from happening. Sometimes we got, you know, a TRO or a [00:04:00] preliminary injunction, and it was making its way, that case would make its way up through the court, but it never went into effect.

AG Dana Nessel: And then when Biden took over, he changed policies. Or sometimes we just won that outright. But we found that these lawsuits were very successful, but I'm gonna make this controversial statement. Maybe we were too successful Because I think that people don't realize how harmful many of these policies would have been and that's maybe one of the reasons why I got reelected.

AG Dana Nessel: I don't know. 

AG Kris Mayes: No, I, well, I think people appreciate it and I think we're starting to see that now with the reaction to many of these executive orders that President Trump has put forward. And the reaction, I don't know about Michigan, but the reaction out here in Arizona has been very negative. I mean, you know, we're seeing firefighters be fired right before fire season in Arizona. That's insane, obviously. So I think [00:05:00] people appreciated what you did the first time around. And unfortunately, we're having to do it all over again, where we see unconstitutional actions. 

AG Kris Mayes: So let's talk a little bit about another thing that will probably come up as we go along on in this podcast, which is the timing and length of legal cases.

AG Kris Mayes: You know, you've filed a lot of lawsuits far more than I have at this point, uh, given your time in office, but we've filed a lot too. Um, sometimes they can take years to resolve. What do you think, what are some of the factors that affect the timeline of a lawsuit? What, what's been your experience with that?

AG Dana Nessel: I, it, honestly, it depends, you know, because some cases get expedited incredibly quickly through the courts. Right. Uh, and we find ourselves at, at circuit, or even the Supreme Court has decided that they're going to take a case very quickly. And I think it depends on what they see to be the [00:06:00] urgency of that situation.

AG Dana Nessel: Um, one case that I'll talk about that I, I think I saw the Supreme Court act not as quickly as we would have liked, but pretty quickly on, um, I would say the presidential immunity decision will be like right up there, historically. That case went from the DC district court to the DC circuit court to the Supreme Court in a very short period of time, because I'm sure the Supreme Court saw a sense of urgency in having that matter resolved as quickly as possible.

AG Dana Nessel: And so they could have done it a little quicker, possibly some of us believe, but, but that's, that's unusual, right? And how quickly that case happened. Other cases, my God, they can linger on for, you know, over a decade. 

AG Kris Mayes: Yeah, that's, it's pretty extraordinary. I mean, you can see, um, you know, I've had cases, uh, that we filed soon after I got here, and they, they're still lingering a couple years later, and they'll probably take a year or [00:07:00] two more to sort out.

AG Kris Mayes: It kind of depends also what court you're in, if you're in federal court, if you're in state court. You end up with a multi state lawsuit with lots of different states and that can complicate things, but, um, you can also have multi states where a judge, you know, issues an immediate TRO. 

AG Dana Nessel: Yeah, and I, I guess the goal is we, as we've talked about, it's just making sure the worst policies just never go into place.

AG Kris Mayes: Um, really good point. 

AG Dana Nessel: The hope that one day we have, uh, that saner minds prevail and that, uh, those policies are repealed and that the issue then becomes moot. And then the court doesn't have to resolve it at all. 

AG Kris Mayes: You want to talk a little bit about standing? This is another word that comes up a lot in cases.

AG Kris Mayes: People often wonder, when and why do attorneys general bring cases? When do AGs have standing in a case to bring a case on behalf of our states versus, say, a group of private [00:08:00] citizens or private organizations? 

AG Dana Nessel: Well, you know, obviously, so our state courts have different regulations on this than federal court, but I think for, for purposes of, of both our states and for most all states, I mean, you have to show that you have some sort of particular legally protected interest in whatever the matter is that's being litigated.

AG Dana Nessel: And of course, you have to demonstrate a very specific injury of some sort that whoever it is that you're protecting has suffered an injury or is going to imminently suffer some sort of a very particular concrete form of injury. It can't be speculative in nature. It has to be specific. 

AG Kris Mayes: So, I mean, I think a really good example of the, of that obviously we proved standing in the birthright citizenship cases that we brought. That was gonna damage our states very concretely. Uh, hundreds of millions of dollars would've been lost to [00:09:00] Arizona in the form of the fact that we would have to have picked up the tab for a lot of services that the federal government provides to citizens, to babies who are citizens. Another is the federal funding freeze. I mean, both of our states would have been devastated by the federal funding freeze, you know, that would have defunded our efforts to fight the Mexican drug cartels down here on the border of fentanyl crisis that we have. 

AG Dana Nessel: Yeah, and I guess a contrary example to that, not one that I necessarily agree with, but I'll bring it up anyway, was, um, the DOGE lawsuit that you and I brought along with General Torres from New Mexico and many other of our AG colleagues in DC.

AG Dana Nessel: And though the case continues and is ongoing, but one of the things that the court indicated was that you've indicated that there is some, some injury or some harm that will affect your states, but you haven't shown that it's imminent, like you haven't shown that that has happened [00:10:00] yet. And Of course, I think both of us would argue that when you have, uh, and this is a case where we brought it against Elon Musk and DOGE and, and Donald Trump and our, our argument was that, look, you have this unelected, uh, billionaire who's going into all government agencies and is downloading all of our personal private data and that that's owned by the government and is making all kinds of decisions on firing federal workers, selling government property and severing contracts that were negotiated by the federal government that that's very harmful and what the the court said in that case is like, yeah, but you haven't really shown how it's hurt your state yet. It may in the future, but it hasn't so far. 

AG Kris Mayes: Which is really frustrating because, as you know, they've not been transparent at all about what's going on behind the scenes.

AG Kris Mayes: [00:11:00] And so, you know, as you mentioned, the case is going to go forward. We're going to do a lot of discovery, but we're going to get, you know, ask for documents, obviously do a lot of witness interviews, and we'll find out. We'll get that information and hopefully be able to present that to the judge. 

AG Dana Nessel: Yeah. And I mean, I have every confidence that we're going to be successful and the court has said so. Um, but it is frustrating when you know, that's something really tragic and really harmful is going to happen to your state residents. 

AG Dana Nessel: And just a fun anecdote that I don't know that we'll have time for but, um, one of the programs I just saw that got cut, because as you know, I'm always trying to do everything I can to protect the Great Lakes, and that is a program that helps us mitigate the sea lamprey, that are sometimes found in the Great Lakes. They are, they're an invasive species and they are, um, I'm going to go so far as to say absolutely disgusting. They are, they're like this little nightmarish, it's like an eel but with giant [00:12:00] teeth. It's like something that you would see in a horror movie. 

AG Kris Mayes: That's horrific.

AG Dana Nessel: It is horrific. And what they do is, you know, they multiply and they attack fish and they like suck all the blood out of the fish. And then you have massive, like die offs of fish. And, uh, anyway, the program that is in place to ensure that we don't have thousands, hundreds of thousands of sea lamprey proliferating throughout the Great Lakes: looks like that got cut. Uh, and so no sea lamprey right now seem to be out there attacking our fish or swimmers or what have you. But if we discontinue the program, they will. And that is a nightmare. And it's just Kind of frustrating to be like, wait for the sea lamprey to start, uh, prospering and taking over the Great Lakes and then I'll grant your, you know, your, 

AG Kris Mayes: your TRO.

AG Dana Nessel: Yeah. So, but just for all the, [00:13:00] um, out of state people who are not familiar with the Great Lakes, we don't currently have a problem with sea lamprey. So it's still safe. It's just very, very cold.

AG Kris Mayes: I don't think I'd want to jump into the Great Lakes right now. I'm just saying.

AG Dana Nessel: So today we are diving into something called pig butchering and that's a scam that's costing victims billions of dollars worldwide. It's all about trust and manipulation and cryptocurrency fraud. 

AG Kris Mayes: And joining us today to unpack all of this are Alex Juarez, who is the Director of Communications for AARP Arizona.

Alex Juarez: Pleasure, pleasure. Thank you so much. 

AG Kris Mayes: And Mark Fetterhoff, who is the Senior Advisor with the [00:14:00] AARP Fraud Watch Network. 

Mark Fetterhoff: Good to see everybody. 

AG Kris Mayes: So Dana, Attorney General Nessel, let us get into it and, uh, start our discussion so everybody can know what they need to do to stay safe. 

AG Dana Nessel: All right. Tell us something about pig butchering.

AG Dana Nessel: You know, we hear about it all over the news. We know that it's, um, one of the biggest scams out there that's defrauding people, uh, really of all age ranges. But, um, you know, what can you tell us about it? 

Mark Fetterhoff: I'll first of all say that pig butchering, I don't love the name pig butchering because First of all, it kind of puts the victim in a, in a funny position.

Mark Fetterhoff: Uh, and second of all, I don't think it describes the scam as well as it probably should. And, and really when we hear about these pig butchering cases, it's a situation where typically either a romance scam or an investment scam, uh, turns into a situation where they're trying to get their victim to invest into a [00:15:00] faux cryptocurrency platform. And , and they're trying to build them up and have them put a lot of money into these platforms. Um, and then all of a sudden disappear. So the term, you know, references kind of building out again, that victim by having them pump a lot of money into the scam and then disappearing. But we see that type of a tactic in a lot of different scams, including, you know, sweepstakes scams and other romance scams.

Mark Fetterhoff: You know, really any type of scam where the people have a rapport and they're able to keep asking for money, we see the same type of tactic over and over. 

AG Kris Mayes: What do both of you think are some ways that people can avoid being, uh, victimized, whether it's through a romance scam or any other one of these scams, uh, where people are increasingly trying to reach folks really over the internet and through digital means?

Alex Juarez: So I think it's very important that the people remain vigilant. Uh, the internet is a very powerful tool that we can utilize for positive things. [00:16:00] Unfortunately, there's scammers out there that are going to try to take advantage. So we have to be very vigilant. If something looks too good to be true, more than likely it is. There's many red flags, uh, so, for example, in the romance scam, if a person tries to become very friendly and in love, but too fast, et cetera, mmm, that's a little fishy there. If the person is trying to, you know, avoid having that face to face contact with a person, um, because they may not be the right profile that they say who they are - that's going to be another one. If they start asking for money, red flag there, let's make sure that we do not send money. Especially if they ask for gift cards, gift cards are totally red flag. 

AG Dana Nessel: Oh, you know, one of the things that I see when I'm talking, especially to senior groups, is that at a certain point, it's almost too late because they're so fully bought in [00:17:00] and they just can't believe that this person that they've been communicating with sometimes for months and months, sometimes over a year, would take advantage of them. And so I mean I try to convey to people the best thing is Not to fall victim in the first place by getting involved with somebody that you don't even know and I just look at my phone and I get these messages all the time just whether it's to my personal cell to my state device, you know:

AG Dana Nessel: "Hi!" 

AG Dana Nessel: "How are you?"

AG Dana Nessel: These are coming from unknown numbers. Here's one Uh, 

AG Dana Nessel: "Hey, girl, your hair looks cute today."

AG Dana Nessel: That was from me. I sent it to myself just in case I was having a bad day. 

AG Kris Mayes: Dana, Dana your hair always looks cute. 

AG Dana Nessel: Thank you. Thank you. But, but I mean, you see people, they're lonely. Lots of seniors, especially they're isolated and maybe they're not around people.

AG Dana Nessel: Maybe their spouse has, has died and they get these messages and they start to interact with people and it starts off in a very innocuous way, but it builds up over time, right? 

Mark Fetterhoff: Yeah, it's, you know, [00:18:00] it's a trusting generation when you're talking to older adults and, and they want to believe that the communication that they're having is real.

Mark Fetterhoff: And whether it is a, one of these kind of phishing text messages that we're all getting that says, "Hey, how's it going?" Or maybe a friend request on Facebook where it's saying, "Hey, do you remember me from high school?" Or "remember we like our cousins knew each other" or something like that, but they want to believe that these situations are true.

Mark Fetterhoff: And, and, uh, to your point, attorney general, especially when they're isolated or alone and, and what these scammers do in these situations is give them all the attention that they want and and they often become addicted to that attention that they're receiving and like any other type of addiction, they can't give it up.

Mark Fetterhoff: I think it's really critically important that, you know, folks are staying active, people are communicating with their friends and neighbors, you're communicating with your older adult family members as well. Um, to make sure that they're not falling into these traps and if you hear signs of those traps that might be out there kind of lurking for them, intervening [00:19:00] and asking questions about the conversations that they're having with people that they're meeting online or again through those text messages that we're getting.

AG Kris Mayes: Mark, I think that's really smart and I like Attorney General Nessel. I, you know, I've done a ton of town halls with our senior communities here in Arizona. We hear so many times about people who've been victimized and, and let's face it, like, no matter how old you are, we all love love, right? Who doesn't want to be in love? Who doesn't want to be loved? And that spans across, uh, all demographics, all age groups. You know, that makes us vulnerable. But I think your point is a really good one, which is the more the people can be talking to each other and testing this information that they're getting with one another in person is, you know, "Hey, I got this text message" as Dana was saying, "I got, got this text message. What do you think about this? Should I even respond?" "I got one too."

AG Kris Mayes: I was in the, I [00:20:00] was dropping my daughter off at school the other day and I got one and I found myself answering the question. And I'm the Attorney General of Arizona, so, I mean, what, what advice do you have for people in that regard? I think too often we're, we're separated, right?

AG Kris Mayes: And we're, we're alone in our homes. We don't have as much community as we used to. 

AG Dana Nessel: You know, those are some really good points that, um, you make, and I might just say this is a follow up that I wonder about. Is sometimes again, you know, when I talk to people, I'll talk to their family members and it's, it's too late and they don't know how to get their family member who's already sometimes, you know, given away a large portion of their life savings, they don't know how to convince them to stop.

AG Dana Nessel: And I've had situations where I've seen family members, they're trying to get conservatorships or guardianships over their family member just to get them to stop giving away every dime that they have to this stranger who is obviously taking advantage of them. Do you have recommendations for like, what do you do when [00:21:00] you're that far along in the process and you want to help somebody?

Alex Juarez: I think with family members, I think we've got to have those tough conversations with our loved ones. I think that's critical. That's very important to have that. Make sure that, uh, they understand and it's going to be a process. It's going to take time. But if we have somebody that's living in a nursing home, assisted living facility, just talking to them constantly, making sure that they understand that there are dangers in the internet, that we can't be trustworthy of every single message that comes in.

Alex Juarez: Uh, for example, I tell people, if you don't recognize a telephone number, don't answer it. If it's important, they're going to leave you a message. You can call back. It's okay to do that. There's no problem doing that. If it's a text message and you have no idea who it is, don't reply back, ignore it. If it's important, somebody will try to get, get a hold of you.

Alex Juarez: So not be as trustworthy as, um, as we have probably in the past or, or as we are with, uh, each other face to face. You know, again, we've got to look for those red flags. So if a [00:22:00] person is approached online and it happens every single day that somebody comes in there trying to probably snoop around and get some information saying, "hey, your profile looks really interesting to me." "You look beautiful. I'd like to be a friend of yours." "Can you befriend me here?" Absolutely not. We try to block those people immediately as soon as that post comes in. But we've got to be very careful. We've got to be talking to our loved ones constantly about it. 

Mark Fetterhoff: Yeah, and I would say just to chime in on that, too, we talked to thousands of fraud victims on the AARP Fraud Watch Network helpline every month and lots of stories like this that we're hearing, unfortunately, and I think that, unfortunately, too, there's just not like a silver bullet for every situation, but one of the benefits of our program, too, and our helpline is that we've got over 150 volunteers across the country Um, including in Arizona and in Michigan, who are helping out folks every day with these situations.

Mark Fetterhoff: And a lot of the times, that volunteer on the other [00:23:00] line, um, on our helpline is serving as what we call a wise friend. Um, it's someone they can talk to, um, about the situation, maybe spitball ideas with how they might convince a loved one. That they are involved in a romance scam, again, the pig butchering type of scam too, trying to just brainstorm, you know, what allies can we make? What barriers do we need to make with their bank accounts? Um, all those different types of things. What identity prevention steps should we be taking based upon the information they're giving? 

Mark Fetterhoff: And so just knowing, again, that the helpline is out there for anyone, regardless of your membership to AARP, I think is really important so folks, again, can call the helpline and, you know, brainstorm with, you know, again, one of our volunteers who we kind of describe as a wise friend who can, you know, talk through the situation because they've done it over and over again with people in similar situations. 

AG Dana Nessel: That's fantastic that you provide that as a service. 

AG Kris Mayes: Yeah, so that's why we're doing this. We're trying to educate folks. I know you know, you guys do that every day about these scams and how to avoid them, but it's also [00:24:00] important to report it quickly once it has happened.

AG Kris Mayes: Can you speak to that and, and why it is so important? 

Alex Juarez: Yeah, I like to talk about that because reporting fraud really helps identify and stop fraudsters and ultimately prevent other people from being targeted. So really important to do it as early as possible. And I know sometimes people, they're victims, you know, but they feel guilty and they don't want to tell people. They don't want to tell their family members. They don't want to share it out in the community. So. It is okay. We've all fallen for something like this. Make sure that you report it. Just remember that you're not alone. AARP has a Fraud Watch Network, uh, the hotline that provides that free support and the guidance and, uh, you can reach them, uh, at 877 908 3360, that's 877 908 3360, or they can visit online as well as at aarp. org forward slash fraud watch. So make sure that you report it as [00:25:00] soon as possible. 

AG Dana Nessel: And Mark, do you have any further suggestions on that? 

Mark Fetterhoff: Yeah, I mean, again, the work that we do, a lot of the work that we do at AARP revolves around reports that we receive on our helpline too.

Mark Fetterhoff: And so when we're getting those reports, if everyone who is the victim of a pig butchering scam, for example, doesn't report it to us or doesn't report it to FTC or the Attorney General's office or whoever it might be, we can't go out and start telling people about it. Um, and so I think this is critically important.

Mark Fetterhoff: I always say that, you know, if, if a thousand people were the victim of the same scam and it was something new that no one ever heard of and everyone was too ashamed to tell everyone then, again, we can't tell the next thousand people that might be the victim of that scam that they should be watching out for whatever uh, is coming after them at that moment.

AG Dana Nessel: So just to double check though, Pedro, the underwear model from Brazil, uh, has not really taken a fancy to me and it might be something more significant than that. A little bit more nefarious is what I'm hearing. 

Mark Fetterhoff: It's [00:26:00] quite possible. 

AG Dana Nessel: All right, just checking. 

Mark Fetterhoff: They're really good at using, You know, they're really good at using stock images too, or, or stealing profile pictures from Facebook to make it look like it's natural.

Mark Fetterhoff: And it's really unfortunate in those situations. We always encourage people to do those Google reverse image searches where you can see how many other places that images on the internet and Pedro is probably in a lot of spots, I'll tell you that. 

AG Kris Mayes: Alex, uh, you know, you, I think you pointed this out. I just want to really reinforce this, the, the question of, of how people should pay for things these days to try to avoid being scammed.

AG Kris Mayes: You know, we are seeing such a rise in the use of cryptocurrency for these scams. You know, scammers calling seniors and then getting the senior's trust, like we were talking about earlier, getting that senior still on the phone, walking into a mini mart [00:27:00] and getting that senior or that person to walk up to the Bitcoin machine literally with the phone still in their hand and send $30, 000, uh, via Bitcoin.

AG Kris Mayes: And, you know, literally people losing their entire life savings. And so, what you really want to reinforce, be so careful when, when you're being asked by somebody to send huge amounts of money by either wire or Bitcoin or cryptocurrency. 

Alex Juarez: Yeah, absolutely. And I, um, AG Mayes, I think you'll be happy to hear that, uh, and, uh, Brendan is working on introducing legislation for cryptocurrency ATM.

AG Kris Mayes: Right. Yeah, 

Alex Juarez: In arizona legislation. So we are very excited about it, that, that we're gonna, uh, make sure that, uh, we're gonna continue fighting and making sure that we educate the Arizona consumers. And across the nation, AARP does a great job with that. We've got to let people know that you've got to be extremely careful. They better be vigilant with cryptocurrencies and [00:28:00] payments with gift cards. 

AG Dana Nessel: Thank you guys so much for coming on and talking about all of this with us. I think that of the uh, the numbers that you're describing, I think 90 percent of that is just my mom. So, uh, I mean, Hey, there's, there's a day that goes by, honestly, where one or both of my parents are not just targeted, but where, you know, I get a call and, you know, "is this a scam? Is this a scam?" And, and honestly, it's really sad. It's tragic, but, almost all of them really are scams. And, and the rare time where their bank is trying to get a hold of them or there's some legitimate offer, you know, you would never know because primarily that's what they're saying. So I always say to them, like, treat everything like it's a scam.

AG Dana Nessel: Now, they won't take my calls. 

AG Kris Mayes: Well, that's why we're doing these chats and, and guys, we appreciate both of you and everything that, that you do and AARP does to, uh, to make sure that we protect [00:29:00] consumers and, and make sure that we can prevent people from being scammed in the first place. So thank you both for coming on.

AG Kris Mayes: We appreciate you. 

AG Dana Nessel: Thanks guys. 

Alex Juarez: Likewise. Thank you both, you know, for the great work you do. Thank you. 

AG Kris Mayes: So, if you or somebody that you know, uh, has been targeted, uh, don't forget, please report it immediately and let's all work together to protect ourselves against these scammers and to protect all of our communities.

AG Kris Mayes: So, thank you again. Alex Juarez and Mark Fetterhoff. We appreciate your insights and thanks for being with us today.

AG Kris Mayes: That's a wrap on this episode of Pantsuits and Lawsuits. We'll be back with more deep dives into the issues that matter to you. In the meantime, make sure to subscribe and follow us on social. Until then, keep your [00:30:00] pantsuits pressed and your lawsuits strong.