Pantsuits and Lawsuits with Attorneys General Kris Mayes and Dana Nessel

The Fight for Public Education: The Critical Battle to Save the Department of Education

• Attorneys General Kris Mayes & Dana Nessel

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When public education comes under attack, who stands in the breach? Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel and Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes take us behind the scenes of their critical legal battles to protect students, teachers, and the very institution of public education in America.

Their fight is deeply personal. Nessel shares the story of her son with significant learning disabilities whose life was transformed by a dedicated teacher who continued teaching while battling terminal cancer. "She wasn't ready to die until Zach had finished fifth grade," Nessel recounts. That boy, once considered unlikely to read or write, later graduated from Michigan State with a 4.0 GPA. For Mayes, whose mother and sister both served as public school teachers, these attacks on education compelled her return to politics after a decade-long absence.

The attorneys general detail their successful legal actions to prevent the dismantling of the Department of Education, protect AmeriCorps programs training desperately-needed teachers, and ensure promised ESSER funds reach school districts that had already committed to projects. Their interventions have prevented devastating budget shortfalls for already underfunded schools across America.

NEA President Becky Pringle, drawing on her 31 years teaching middle school science, offers powerful insights into education's connection to democracy itself. "You could follow the trajectory of a society," she explains, noting that falling societies invariably begin by "taking away the right of its citizens to learn." From book bans to curriculum censorship to teacher intimidation, the current climate threatens not just academic achievement but the foundation of democratic participation.

The conversation exposes the false promise that dismantling federal education programs would simply transfer funds to states, pointing to evidence from Arizona where universal voucher programs have diverted billions toward private education while draining public resources. As class sizes grow, special education supports vanish, and teachers face unprecedented pressure, the attorneys general remain committed to their fight for America's educational future.

Subscribe to learn how these legal battles affect every family in America and what's at stake for our democracy itself.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

Thanks so much for joining us for another riveting episode of Pantsuits and Lawsuits, your favorite podcast for hearing about the ongoing legal battles shaping this country.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

I am Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

And I'm Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Class is in session. We're going to be talking about the numerous lawsuits that we have filed against the administration in the education realm, where we have stood up for our educators and our students, and higher education in this country.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

Certainly, the Trump administration has a target on the back of educators and educational institutions all around the country, and it's not just K through 12. Of course, it's universities as well, both public and private, and it's been a deep concern. Kris, can you walk us through some of the cases that we filed just in these last few months?

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah, I think there have been several. I think you really have to start with our case to try to save the Department of Education. As folks know by now, the Trump administration essentially wanted to dismantle the Department of Education. They were attempting to fire many people inside DOE, the Department of Education, and what they were going to do would have eliminated incredibly important services and funding, like funding for Title I schools, which are low-income schools, and kids who are low-income and who need that extra funding. That also, by the way, would have impacted our rural schools here in Arizona, I'm sure, and Michigan terribly.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

And then there's so many other things inside the Department of Education that would have been deeply impacted if they had been successful in dismantling it, and you know we obviously were successful in getting that stopped.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

I think another lawsuit that has been really important for us to win a preliminary injunction in frankly is the AmeriCorps lawsuit, and we know a lot of AmeriCorps volunteers work in our school system at least they do out here in our universities, at our universities, and they are critical, for instance, in terms of us trying to increase our supply of teachers. We have a program at Northern Arizona University that teaches teachers and gets new teachers into our school system, where we have a critical shortage of teachers. So again, Trump tried to dismantle all of AmeriCorps without Congress's approval, and the impact on regular people in Arizona of that would have been just huge.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

Yeah. And you know, I think about the ESSER funds case as well that we have, at least preliminarily, had a lot of success on. And you know, this is money that was allocated to public schools and school districts all around the country and it had to do with the response to COVID. And a lot of the schools took up the federal government on these grants to do things like to renovate HVAC systems and make sure they proper heating and cooling systems in place to make and many other upgrades that were desperately needed in schools all around the country. The school districts accepted, you know, the proposals of these grants. I mean, they applied for it and were told they were going to receive this money in anticipation. For that they went out and they did some you know, major, major projects and spent in some cases for some school districts, millions of dollars, only for the Trump administration to then say, psych, you're not getting the money after all, even after they already spent it. And now you know, but for us filing this case and so far being successful in this case, those school districts that are already badly underfunded would have to find money to make up what is sometimes millions of dollars and they only spent that money because this offer was made to them by the federal government. And now it's time for the federal government to keep their promise, keep up their end of the contract and pay off.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

Yeah, you know, I take it so personally, the attacks on public education. Several things. Firstly, my parents were the children of immigrants that could neither read or write and had no formal education, and they relied on the Detroit public schools in order for them to better themselves in life. And my dad became an accountant, my mom became a public school teacher, a special ed teacher, and spent her career that way. And they could only do that because at the time we had really good public schools and public schools are the great equalizer. And I look at my public school education, which prepared me to become the top lawyer in a state of over 10 million people, and I think a lot about my kids, who also are products of the public school system. But I think a lot about one of my sons who had a very significant learning disability and he had an IEP and he had a teacher that just was totally devoted to him in elementary school and she worked so hard.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

I mean, I was always told that my son would never learn to read, never learn to write, and he had a teacher who wouldn't give up on him, and so much so that she was diagnosed with stomach cancer when Zach was in the third grade. But she kept on coming to school over and over again, and it was midway through the fifth grade as as my son was making a lot of advances and it was clear that his teacher was not doing very well and I learned later that it was recommended that she go on hospice at that point, and I said, Mrs. Petras, why don't you go home? You know, spend some time with your family, and I'll never forget her saying, shortly before she died, that she wasn't ready to die until Zach had finished the fifth grade. And now my son just graduated from Michigan State University with a 4.0 grade point average, and he was never expected to even be able to make it through high school, let alone go to college.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

You know, and that's the story of public education to me, it's Mrs. Petras who was determined to make sure that my son and all the kids she taught could have a brighter future. And that's why the villainizing and demonization of public school teachers really, I mean it infuriates me, because a public school education is so important and it's the only thing that allows people to advance when they come from circumstances that wouldn't otherwise allow them to. It's truly what makes America great, and it's unfortunate that Donald Trump and his administration can't and won't appreciate that.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Dana, that is just an amazing story and you know, boy, but also probably the story that is replicated all across America, with so many teachers who are dedicated and, honestly, in a lot of ways, I decided to run for attorney general, get back involved in politics after 10 years of being out of politics because of the way that I saw my daughter's teachers being treated and the fact that they were not being supported and I wanted to do everything that I could as attorney general to support them.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Like you, though, interestingly enough, my sister is a special education teacher and so your mom was. My sister is a SPED teacher in California and my mom was a teacher, public school teacher, and I, too, went to public schools and my daughter's in public schools here in Arizona. So I think you know, yeah, for all of those reasons, this is deeply personal, I think, not just for us, but for the people of our state who deeply support the public school system, who deeply support our libraries. That's another one that we fought the cuts to our library systems that we successfully are fighting against, and we are definitely not going to stop fighting to protect our public school system as this administration continues to do again unconstitutional things that violate the rule of law.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

We're so excited to have Becky Pringle here with us today from the National Education Association to join us in our conversation, of course, about public education and also just education in general and what's happening right now in the country.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

So this is going to be a great conversation. Becky is a tremendous leader in this space, in this area, and I'm looking forward to having this conversation, so let's get going.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

Hi Becky, great to see you.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

Hi, Dana, it's so good to see you, my goodness.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

Hi, hi, Kris.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Hi, Becky, how you doing? Thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

Of course, of course, my goodness, thank you. It is my honor. Wow, you guys have been busy.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

We have.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

Yes, you have.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

We're trying, that's for sure.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

What you're doing right now, both of you, let me start there. First of all, I need to thank you on behalf of the 3 million members of the NEA and the 50 million students that we serve and the parents millions of parents who just didn't know what to do January 20th. And right away our attorney generals across the country, the two of you in particular, stepped up and said we will defend the rights of people in ways that help to slow some things, allow us to bring light to some things for those who didn't necessarily know the full impact.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

So you both know that I taught middle-level students the wonders of science for 31 years and as an educator for that long, before Before I became an office of the NEA, I could talk to you about what the US Department of Education meant for me as an educator and for my kids, and that's in part because I was a teacher for so long, and so you know I've been on this earth for a minute if I talk for 31 years.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

I knew firsthand, I lived it. I know it. Not everyone knows, but I know the impact of trying to dismantle the Department of Education at a time when we know that our students, all of them, not just those who come from those communities that have been marginalized forever. But all our students will be impacted rural, suburban, urban by higher class sizes, which is what's going to happen by the fact that we don't have educators, because they're under attack all the time. The reality that will hit them are very evident to me as an educator and to more and more educators and parents and the students themselves.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

Right at the outset, like February when the research grants were cut and people didn't make that direct tie either. We have special education teachers whose salaries are paid from research grants because they're doing research into the best teaching methods for our students with disabilities, and so they were gone on Monday. Gone! And people don't know those stories.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah, and Becky, you make such an important point, which is that our schools, increasingly, are places that provide so many services to kids. I recently learned I didn't even know this but in Arizona we have some school nurses that are providing Medicaid-funded services to kids at school. So when the Medicaid cuts come down, some of our school nurses may not be able to provide some of those health care services to kids that they so desperately need, and that's just another example. There are so many areas that sort of are centered around our schools that are going to be harmed and, again, these are average everyday Michiganders and Arizonans and Americans who are going to be hurt by these cuts, these frankly cruel and totally unnecessary cuts. At a time when we need to not be cutting. We should be increasing funding to our schools.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

But what do you say to people and I hear this all the time what do you say to the narrative that we don't really need to have a federal department of education because that money will just go directly to the states and the states will better know how to handle and manage that money, so we don't need to have a DOE at all? How do you respond to that?

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

We know what this is about. We know this is about finding money for tax breaks for people who are already obscenely rich enough, and so we know what, that. We know what's going to happen. But beyond that, let's just think about even if that money comes, or some of it comes, to the states. We know the impact of all of the other cuts they're going to have on state budgets, where states are going to have to make decisions about whether or not they're going to fund education at the level that not only they're funding now, but the greater gaps that we're creating, whether we're talking about taking money out of Medicaid or other programs, SNAP, all of them, all of those programs are going to fall to the states, and the states are going to be in that place where they're going to have to make decisions that we know will impact public education in this country. And so, first of all, I'm not falling for that okie doke. Let's start there.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

And the second thing is that, even if money comes to the state from the federal government, all of the other cuts that they are making will impact those state budgets.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

You know I share your theory there, Becky on what's going to happen, what this is really about. Because, as you know, I am from a state that, sadly, has implemented universal vouchers and we are now spending in Arizona, a billion dollars in taxpayer funds to largely pay for wealthy kids to, or the kids of wealthy parents to go to private schools or to be homeschooled. And that's what I think is going to happen here is I think this is really a scheme to privatize the Department of Education, to send the money putatively, I guess to state departments of education and then for them to create voucher programs or to do direct vouchers from the feds. I don't know which one it would be, but that's, I think, what their game is. And maybe it's just because I happen to live in a state where this has happened and it's devastating and it drains funding from our public schools, which is where the vast majority of our students are educated.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

There's just no question, Kris, that what you just said is exactly what's happening. And Arizona is such a good slash bad example, right, because they have been, the vouchers have been there, so we already have evidence. What you just said, absolutely true. The money always goes. You know, we pretended as though, oh, we're going to help black and brown students, that's what we're going to do, and that never happened. It never happened. This is now going on three decades, so it's not like we don't have evidence. And then, of course, the money automatically goes to those families that already have their students in private schools. And then what do they do?

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

They raise the tuition. Right, they just raise the tuition. That's all they're doing. They're getting the voucher money and then they're raising the tuition so that they can charge even more.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

Just to charge even more.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

So those families who could never afford it anyway, it's farther out of reach for them. The ones that could afford it, it doesn't matter. And so here we. Here we are with that scheme in place. But what we? We also know what it does right, it's draining money from the public schools, year after year after year, and making it harder for states like yours to fund your, your public schools, and we've seen it over and over again.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

And then let's go back, Kris. It's something you said to me just now made me think about this too, because we've already seen this happen. So, even if the federal government reluctantly gives, sends the money to the states, we already know strings are going to be attached. We already know that. So if you are not complying with what we're saying about DEI, then we're not sending it to you. Or we might say, we're going to send it to you and we don't because we found something out, you're teaching something, you know the true history of this country for A to Z. They might say they're giving you the money, but just what happened right now? I mean the money that has been promised already to the states. Right now our schools are being impacted, which I always try to make that point. But the thing when you opened up, we absolutely have to concern ourselves. What's going to happen in a month or so when our kids start to go back to school, or Kris, I think you said that so, but right now, schools are not getting the money that was promised to them.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

I just I was just in a district in East St Louis in Illinois where they were using the ARPA funds to put in HVAC systems. I want to say you know who knew about HVAC systems before the pandemic? Who? Who was talking about that? Now we did. We had always, always been sounding those alarms that our air filtration system is not safe, or those kids were more prone to get asthma and all of the things that predispose them to get sick COVID or die from COVID. But now everybody knows about it, right. It's 2025. And we have a school district that still didn't have the resources to put in an HVAC system and now they have finally planned to do it this spring and that money was yanked away from them. That was already promised to them. So these things are already happening. That is the impact of this Trump administration on our kids and our communities, our parents, this country.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

You know, I want to bring up something kind of interesting that was a case that actually we were involved in, in Michigan that at the time was called the Gary B case. And, it seems like a million years ago now but the arguments that were made by these kids who were in the Detroit Public Public School system, that at the time there was an emergency manager that from our former Republican Governor, Rick Snyder, had had basically taken over the school district but then you know, you know, not used it in a way where they had proper. You know, teachers and the schools you know were literally falling apart and they, to your point, they were freezing cold or they're really hot in the spring or summer. And you know, part of the arguments we made were that this was a violation of the Equal Protection Clause under the 14th Amendment to deprive children of just minimal levels of education in reading and writing and math. And we connected a public school education, a good, decent public school education, to the preservation of democracy, because if kids are not being taught to read and write, they are unlikely to vote, and to me that's part of the plan.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

And then the other thing about it is this: Kids who don't have a proper education also are much more likely to buy into conspiracy theories and they're more likely to be intolerant of people who aren't exactly like themselves. And so I think we're seeing the fruition of that. We oddly, we won this case at the Sixth Circuit, if you can believe it. But then, en banc, the decision was vacated, which was very unfortunate. But I only say that because there is this direct correlation, is there not, between our ability to maintain a democracy and people being properly educated?

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

Honestly, I could not have said that better. You know, my dad was a history teacher. He had three girls and he would always make us sit down and listen. You know," Rebecca, that's what he called me, and he's really mad or very serious. "Rebecca, you need to understand your history, your family history, black history, american history and world history." You need to understand and one of the lessons he taught us I reluctantly, you know science, I didn't care about it. Well now, of course, I wish he were here to talk to... but he would always talk about. You could follow the trajectory of a society, a government, a reign, and you could follow no matter where you were in the world throughout time. You could follow it when it was on its rise and when it was on its fall. When you saw it was falling, it was. You could see, universally, those who were in positions of power taking away the right of its citizens to learn. And what's happening now? That's happening in our country, which is shocking, that we're dealing with book bans and censoring curriculum and retelling, or leaving vast parts of history out of what's being taught, and all of it is designed for what you just said, Dana. I mean we have to acknowledge that.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

Public education, universal, free, quality education for everyone, everyone is the foundation of our democracy, any democracy, and when you don't have that, or it's unequal, inequitable, then you know what you described is exactly what will happen. And so not only do we appreciate that you take that up from a legal perspective, and, regardless of the ruling being vacated, we need to continue to do it.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

As I said earlier, we've got to slow it where we can. We have to lift it up and make the connections that you just made, which are so important. If our students don't have the critical thinking skills, if they can't collaboratively problem solve, if they can't, if they don't have the windows, if they don't have the mirrors to see themselves and the windows to see each other, then we cannot operate our democracy cannot operate the way democracy should, where you have people who are taking ownership and responsibility for participation and understand what that civic duty is and are able to make decisions, to discern the discernment that you talked about between lies and the truth. All of that is on the line right now and it is deliberate. It is deliberate. We see it as it's proliferating across other states. We know it, because we know that, at the end of the day, that's what they see as a block. An educated citizen is a block to their march, on their march toward unfettered power. That's what's happening.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

I have a question. You know, one of the earlier executive orders that came down from Donald Trump's magical Sharpie really threatened the prosecution of teachers who radically indoctrinated their students. No definition provided of that. And I know that for me, you know, I went and I put out a statement and I did a video, directed at our public school teachers, specifically saying at our public school teachers, specifically saying just so you know, please don't be afraid that law enforcement is going to like bust down your classroom door because you had the audacity to teach, To Kill a Mockingbird to your students, which is on the list of banned books, I notice, in many places. Now, ironically, that's the only reason I became a lawyer is because I read that book. I was so inspired by it. But that being the case, you know I put out a statement, basically like sort of reminding people of Civics 101.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

Like here is how criminal statutes are formulated. It takes in. You know, for a federal law it's got to be, you know, the House, the Senate, signed off on by the president. If it is a state law, same State House and Senate signed by the governor. That's how you create a criminal statute, not through an executive order. But one of the things that concerns me is this threat to school teachers. You know for them to be concerned 24-7 about like. Is the federal government going to come after me if I'm teaching in accordance with our school district's curriculum? What do you say to, you know, to teachers out there that are afraid every day to go to work, and people who don't even want to stay in the profession because they're so concerned about it?

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

I want you to imagine and I'm going back to you know, just teaching, teaching, even when I started. That's a hard job to do. We have so many things. I always, whenever I talk about my teaching, I always say I taught students, and I say that deliberately I didn't teach science.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

I taught students the wonders of science. Because I knew that when Sade came in two days a week and I'm talking away about the three laws of motion and she missed something and she's not making the connection I had to understand why she was only coming to school two days a week. And I found out that she had seven siblings, she was 12. That she had the babysit because her parents couldn't get care for those kids and she was the oldest, she was responsible, and so I had to factor that into okay, how do I get to this child? As a teacher, I had to spend time trying to access resources for Sade, all of these things, not just teach about the three laws of motion. I had to teach Sade, and so when we think about fast forward now, not only do all teachers have to do that anyway, that's always been true, but now they're under attack. So what you rightly brought into this conversation the struggle we are having at a time when we know that we have an educator shortage, that in addition to all they always have to do, now you're putting that on them, that fear that they're going to get in trouble, or just the disrespect of them as professionals, and they're disrespecting them and not paying them.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

So, yeah, how do we attract, let alone retain, educators in classroom? That's one of the reasons why I say you know, everybody's going to be affected by this, whether you will happen to be in that marginalized group or not. Those class sizes are going to soar. You're not going to have access to career and technical training at the level you did. You're not going to have the student loans or access to help to get through the student loan process the Department of Education provides. Everybody's going to be impacted by what this administration has done and when we go back to school, that impact it's already happening, but that impact will grow larger as our students with disabilities don't have the paraprofessions that help them get through that day and learn those lessons.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

The role you play I can't underestimate it. Please continue to visit our schools and talk to educators and to parents and our students. Please continue to use your brilliance to make those connections and slow things down in the way that you have done. On behalf of all of our educators, I just can't thank you enough. Thank you.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

We will do it. We promise you, Becky, and thank you so much again. And to paraphrase Henry Adams, it's our teachers who affect eternity. So we will keep fighting to make sure our teachers can affect eternity. Thank you, Becky Pringle. Thank you, Becky Pringle, from the NEA, for fighting for our students in America. Thanks for coming on our podcast.

Becky Pringle, NEA President:

Thanks.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

That is all the time that we have on today's episode of Pantsuits and Lawsuits.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

Thank you so much for listening and for being lifelong learners. We'll be back with another episode about the latest and greatest in American jurisprudence very soon.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

And please do not forget to follow us on social media, subscribe and also check out our website for timely updates on the work of both of our departments.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

That's right.

Attorney General Dana Nessel :

But for now, it's time for me and Kris to hit the books.