Pantsuits and Lawsuits with Attorneys General Kris Mayes and Dana Nessel

Guns, Kids, And Common Sense Reform

• Attorneys General Kris Mayes & Dana Nessel

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A hard truth sets the tone: gun violence is now the leading cause of death for kids and teens in America. As parents, we share the fear that comes with lockdown texts and campus alerts; as attorneys general, we break down how states can act when the window opens and how those wins ripple upward. From there, we dig into what actually works—red flag laws, safe storage, and other common sense reforms—and why politics still manages to stall simple, popular solutions.

We’re joined by Emma Brown, executive director at Giffords, who brings clear evidence and a coalition mindset. She explains how ERPOs give law enforcement a narrow, court-supervised tool to temporarily separate dangerous individuals from firearms, and why departments that once opposed ERPOs now rely on them. We look at the data linking safe storage to fewer youth deaths and the real-world impact of free gun locks distributed by police and pediatricians. We also confront the rise of ghost guns and conversion devices—unserialized parts and forced-reset triggers that undercut tracing, evade basic safeguards, and raise the risk for officers and communities. 

The conversation is frank about the political headwinds: organized lobbying and industry immunity that keep Congress trailing behind public opinion—even when over 90% of the country supports universal background checks. Yet there’s a roadmap. State progress builds the case for federal action, especially when tragic events focus the nation’s attention and coalitions are ready with proven models. The takeaway is practical and urgent: educate the public about ERPOs, normalize safe storage, back law enforcement on ghost guns, and make the most of every opportunity to pass reforms that protect kids without infringing responsible ownership.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who cares about safer communities, and leave a review to help more people find it. Your voice helps turn common sense into common practice. 

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of Pant suits and Lawsuits, your favorite podcast to hear about all of the uh very unusual and frankly terrible world of American law and litigation in the year of our Lord 2025. Yeah, you got that right.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

We are your hosts, uh Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

And I am Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Thanks for joining us. And today we are going to be talking with Emma Brown from Giffords about the leading cause of death for children and teens in America. It's not what you might think, it's gun violence.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

That's the third highest total on record, trailing only two previous years. Um about eight in ten U.S. murders in 2023 involved a firearm. Um, again, among the highest percentages since 1968. That was the first year that those uh records are available from the CDC online, and more than half of all the suicides in 2023 also involved a gun. So obviously the statistics don't lie. This is a huge problem.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Uh we we talk about, you know, the threat of school shootings, we talk about the threats of um shootings under all kinds of circumstances. I don't know if you know this, Chris, but um my sons were both at Michigan State University when um that shooting occurred. Uh and they both were in close proximity to the shooter at different times. Uh and I was just, you know, you you see it on TV, you handle it professionally, but when you're a parent and you get that that text message from your kid who's at school and is terrified that they're gonna be next, I mean it's uh it's the it's the kind of um thing that it it really humbles you as uh an attorney general because you you come to understand, my God, I am the top law enforcement official of my state, and I am powerless to stop my own kids from being you know victims of gun violence just because they went to college.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

It's real that I did not know that about your kiddos, but um I yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I'm my daughter is now in seventh grade, she's 12, and she we have had she's had multiple actual lockdowns. Thank God no no actual shooters uh like in in your um your kids' case, but um several actual lockdowns. They have practice lockdowns at school um all the time. And we had one incident where the all the parents got a notification from the school about a a threat, uh a you know, death threat that had happened online. So, you know, and when you talk to parents around Arizona, you know, they they talk about this. I mean, my my hairdresser brought this up with me the other day. She's got kids in school, young kids in school. I would say she's pretty apolitical, but she worries she told me she she said, Chris, I worry about this every day I drop my kids off at school is is is gun violence.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

What's the state of of gun laws in Arizona right now?

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Well, I mean, I think we unfortunately we have not been able to enact um what you all have apparently done up there. So I'm curious to to hear about yours. One of the things that we are trying to do um is is a is is enact a red flag law, um, you know, a sort of a protective order provision for just for our school. So we have been introducing for the last, I think, three years. This year will be the third year in a row uh where we introduced a bill to allow law enforcement to confiscate the gun of a person who is making threats to a school. Uh, you know, maybe a teacher notices it or a parent, and that that person can notify law enforcement. And then the gun can be temporarily seized. Um, it's very nail narrowly tailored. We I mean, we our previous Republican governor tried to pass a uh red flag law that was even broader than that. We I can't even get a hearing for that in our Republican legislature. Talk to us about what you have going on in Michigan.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

So, as I have talked to you about before, for 40 years, we did not have a Democratic trifecta. And as a result, we were totally unable to do anything meaningful in the way of gun safety laws. But it was in the wake of not only the Michigan State University um killings, but also Oxford High School, where there were four students that were murdered in their high school. So, in the wake of those two things and the democratic trifecta, we quickly were able to get a number of important laws passed pretty quickly. Universal background checks, which we didn't have, uh safe and secure storage laws, which it's so simple. It just means that if you have uh a child that has, you know, that routinely is in your home and has access to your weapons, you you have to store them in a way that is safe and secure. You have to lock them up. I mean, it's so common sense. We did pass a red flag law, and it has been so meaningful for us in Michigan. And uh what has been hilarious about it is the sheriffs that went on record opposing it the most are the ones who are seeking them now. Oh wow. That's how they're protecting their own uh law enforcement officers and sheriff deputies, um, is by use of these red flag laws when you have people who are actually threatening law enforcement. So the loudest voices against it sometimes are the ones who are using it the most, which I find to be ironic. We also passed a great law that bans people who have been convicted of a domestic violence crime or a related crime uh for a period of uh several years. So we know that the biggest predictor, right, of whether or not you are going to commit a uh gun-related crime is domestic violence. And so um I think that that these laws, and that's an eight-year prohibition, I think that, you know, we got those four laws through very, very quickly, and I think we're already sort of reaping the benefits of it. And God knows how many uh homicides, how many suicides, how many attempted murders uh we have prevented as a result of those four laws. We don't know statistically yet, but we will. Uh, and um I'm just so grateful that we were able to at least do that.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

I'm curious, you know, as a state, you know, Michigan is a state that didn't have those laws, then you now you do. Have you in the wake of that, has sort of the the pushback against those kinds of common sense gun laws receded?

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

I would say that you still have members of the legislature who talk about repealing these laws because it's popular for their base, but not the members of law enforcement. You don't hear it from them anymore. And it's like I just kind of actually love it every time one of those sheriffs executes uh an URPO, an extreme risk protection order. And every time it's there's it's always a caveat. Well, in this case, this guy was really dangerous, or in this case, this person was really violent, or in this case, he had threatened to to kill, you know, one of one of you know my officers or a neighbor or whoever. I'm like, yeah, what what did you think we wanted to pass it for? It's for people who were dangerous, right? Who are going to take their lives or someone else's. And again, people should remember this is not permanent, but this is a temporary cessation of your ability to legally possess or purchase weapons. And in the meantime, a judge gets to say, listen, I think, you know, your own family is saying that you are making these threats, and I think you need some mental health treatment. And come back to me once you've had some mental health treatment, and then we'll revisit this and maybe get your guns back. And we should remember who are we protecting here? Mostly veterans. Veterans who otherwise um are taking their own lives. That's that's the biggest stat that we know about.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Down here, you know, we we have uh, you know, proliferation of ghost guns, um, which are untraceable guns, and and it's something that we deal with on the border. Um, it's something that obviously the Mexican drug drug cartels love to to traffic in in ghost guns, in guns in general. Um, and you know, the law enforcement doesn't like them. I chair um the memorial committee here in Arizona for uh police officers who are who die in the line of duty. Um when you see how how affected entire police forces are um by by this, you you know, people I think many of them put their lives in danger every single day. We are gonna need law enforcement to to really like the you know, rank and file and and leadership and law enforcement to come forward and say, this is what we need in order to keep our streets safe. And these these measures are not ridiculous, these measures are um fair and they are designed to help law enforcement, and then maybe you know that sort of can spread spread, that message can spread through the community and through the community that is objecting to these common sense gun reforms. I don't know. That's just a theory. I'm looking for a theory here.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

No, I I agree with you 100%. And I wish that our law enforcement officers would be as vocal as possible about what we need to do to keep uh, you know, the streets of our respective states safe. I think they're obligated to do it and not be beholden just to an idea, um, but to the actual people they represent and to keep them as safe as possible and to keep our law enforcement officers as safe as possible.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah. But, you know, really when you talk to law enforcement about ghost guns, about force set re triggers, you know, that the these sort of triggers that you can uh jury rig a gun with and make it an an automatic gun, they don't like these things, you know, because it makes it harder um for them to do their jobs, quite frankly.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

And I mean, ghost guns alone, right? Let's just talk about that for a second. Who, I mean, how does it not completely upend uh any protections that we have in place when you can literally 3D print uh a weapon in your basement and you don't have to have a background check and you have guns that are made of a uh plastic uh material that can go through metal detectors? I mean, who thinks this is a good idea? And that's the crazy part. Like, I mean, you really have to set aside logic and reason. And I think what we've seen is like if you are a member of the Republican Party, I mean, especially of course if you are an elected member, you have to like take a solemn oath not to do anything ever to prohibit the possession uh or or the purchase or the manufacture uh of weapons uh that are firearms at the end. And if you do, then you're like excommunicated from the party, essentially. And it doesn't make any sense. And if you were to really have those conversations behind the scenes, what I hear is like, hey, I don't like ghost guns, but what am I gonna do? I'm I can't vote for this, you know. I'm I'm gonna get primaried. And that's it. It's not because they really support ghost guns.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

As a former Republican, I can tell you you're right. Because when you uh talk to actual gun owners, you know, I I think I told you I I as a kid I took the NRA gun safety course. I was a teenager when I took that class in Prescott. When you talk to the people that I grew up with in rural Arizona, they'll all tell you that they're in favor of these sort of common sense reforms. I can't come across I can't find a single person who thinks that ghost guns are good, or that um that we should um, you know, not have red flag laws or not not take gun you know, not have the opportunity to temporarily take a gun out of the hands of an extremely disturbed person who is threatening a school, who can be against that?

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Or simply locking your gun up when you have a child who has access to it? Like who who thinks for anything that is dangerous to that child and we know can be deadly, it's not a good idea to say, make sure that you're keeping your child safe from this weapon. Uh I I just don't understand the thinking behind it. And uh the only thing that I can say, and it's not just you know the NRA, I mean, we're really talking about the gun manufacturers, they just want to be able to sell as many guns as possible without any prohibitions of any kind, because that's how they make money. It's literally blood money.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

What do you think are your next steps? What's what are the next steps in Michigan? Obviously, you've already you've already passed some good stuff.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Candidly, one of the biggest problems is that people don't know about these laws because we've not did enough job of advertising them. So what I do routinely is when I am talking to domestic violence prevention groups, I have to like over and over again remind them. Like, you know, if they say, well, this PPO, it's not keeping me safe. Well, yeah, it's just a piece of paper. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You know what it'll keep you safe. Making sure that the person who's threatened to kill you doesn't have their guns anymore. And people don't know. And I think the other thing about it is that people don't understand, and I say this this is especially true in communities of color. Um, people are like, well, I don't want my loved one to go to jail or to go to prison. And I'm always like, good news, this is a civil order. It's it's not criminal in nature. No one's going to jail, right? Going to prison. You are just removing guns from a person who is at least temporarily unsafe to possess them. And you know, I so getting the message out about that, getting the message out about safe and secure storage, telling people that uh gun locks are free, they're free in our state. Um, because of this law, you can go to, you know, uh not just the police department, you know who else gives them out? Pediatricians give them out now. Because a lot of people don't feel safe or comfortable going into a police department. But when you take their child to the the doctor, the doctor will say, Do you have a firearm? And if they say yes, they'll say, Do you have a gun lock? And if they don't, then the pediatricians give them out.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Is it was that was that pursuant to the law? Was that precipitated by the law that you passed on uh safe starting?

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

They know the very beginning of this conversation, how many kids are being killed by weapons in their own homes or their parents' vehicles? Uh so a lot of it is just getting the word out about these laws. And once we do, we see how many people they can actually protect. So, yes, with a Republican majority in the House now, are we gonna pass more gun safety laws? No. I mean, we are absolutely not. But can we sort of expand the usage of the laws that are already in the books? Yes, we can, and we are.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

I'm really proud of everything that you've done in Michigan, Dana. And uh I think it's uh, you know, gonna be a part of your legacy, and also it's something that other states can look at in terms of what we can actually accomplish. Obviously, you were successful during a trifecta period.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

It was in the wake, though, of these two significant incidents. So again, we had the expert shooting, then we had the MSU shooting. So I think that public appetite um, it was in the news every day. So it it was I I I I certainly am not gonna say good timing because I don't like that that phrase. No, but it was at a time where certainly in Michigan everyone was high alert and we kept on hearing the stories over and over again. And we had laws that, like I said, you know, that safe and secure storage law. This was a 15-year-old that had access to uh a weapon that was technically his parents, even though he was allowed to use it. Uh he knew where it was. Uh, it wasn't locked up. They, you know, uh he's got an incident in school where he's like drawing guns and dead bodies and he's searching for bullets and stuff, and he's brought in, and the parents don't even say, Oh, by the way, we have a gun that's missing from our house. Uh, so it was a pretty extreme set of circumstances, but it really highlighted like, oh my God, why can't you just lock that gun up? And then none of this would have happened, and it really would not have happened. Those four, you know, high school kids would be alive today had their parents just locked up the damn gun.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah, I can't. I mean, every time this happens, and it just happens so all too often, you know, all too often. Um obviously we had the shooting of Gabby Giffords herself in 2011. I'll never ever forget that day that that happened. Um you would have thought that that would have led to, you know, significant gun reforms here or and or nationwide. Um, but we didn't have the trifactor that you had. So I think I think there is some there's something about that combination of having the political will to do it and then something that sparks it.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Yeah, let's hope we can do this as n as many places as possible. And, you know, even with these terrible statistics, save as many lives as we can.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Well, Emma Brown, it is so great to have you with us. We really appreciate it. And um glad that we can have this incredibly timely conversation.

Emma Brown:

Well, thank you so much. And um, Terry General Mays, thank you for having me. Thank you for your leadership. So uh I, as you said, am the executive director of Gifford's um National Gun Violence Prevention Organization, founded by, of course, uh former Congresswoman Gabriel Giffords. So she and Senator Kelly founded Giffords after the Sandy Hook shooting. Um was of course shot in 2011. Um, you know, at the time, political assassination uh or assassination attempts were very rare. You know, they're becoming more frequent, and we can certainly talk about what we've seen this past summer. Um, but she and Senator Kelly, you know, founded Giffords in part because they felt that the gun violence prevention um infrastructure and world was really missing a perspective from uh gun owners, you know, red state Democrats, people who um, you know, are used to working across ideological lines and working with people that they don't necessarily agree with. You know, I think folks forget that Gabby was a blue dog Democrat from border districts, you know, it's a heavily armed part of the country that loves guns and loves hunting. And um, I think they really founded Giffords to make the point that um there is no tension between the Second Amendment and gun safety. And so we really focus on centrist coalition building um federal and state level progress, you know, and we've seen a lot of it over the past decade. But as, you know, we see from the past couple of weeks, we've got a long ways to go.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Let's talk a little bit about what you think some of the gun safety tools that have proven themselves to be the most successful. So I'll I'll throw one out there, one that I I think you probably agree with, which is um um education protection orders. I think they're also known as red flag laws. They can be broad, they can be narrow. We we designed one here in Arizona that was pretty narrow. We thought, okay, let's let's start small. So, what are your thoughts on that and what other tools have proven, at least in other states that have passed them to be successful? Yeah.

Emma Brown:

Well, so 21 states have that law you were just outlining, right? The red flag law. And it's not just blue states. We have a we have one of those in Indiana. It's a pretty narrow that we've got in Indiana. Um, you know, and I think like what's really at the heart of that um that particular reform, which we know is so impactful, is the fact that um uh mass shooters are often known to law enforcement, right, before they commit, you know, the tragedies that we know by the names of towns now. So like the Parkland shooter, for example, um, you know, had been the subject of dozens of 911 calls and two FBI tips, right? But because there was no red flag law in Florida, the law enforcement couldn't do anything about it, right? They couldn't separate him from his firearms and he killed 17 people, right? Um, there are, you know, examples like that. The El Paso shooting, you know, had a shooter who was, again, known to law enforcement. And really, this is a conversation about can we give law enforcement the tool that it needs to be able to keep people safe? And right now we can only do that in 21 states. And I will say, like in those states, we are seeing far fewer mass shootings. So the red flag laws are working, right? And you know, I think when you talk to especially national law enforcement leaders, you know, about these issues, like they don't want the ghost guns, you know, on the streets. They know that that's a problem. Like they know that if if you know any person who is having a bad day is able to convert, you know, a normal gun into a machine gun, like we've got a really big problem. It's a problem for, you know, people who are walking the beat and trying to keep trying to keep people safe. So it's yeah, it's a huge problem. And I would just say too, like, you know, officer wellness and the way that officer wellness also intersects with, you know, these issues and with mental health and suicide prevention. Like these are people who are putting their lives on the line every day and they see some really, really hard things. And we also need to take care of them, right? So I think all of these issues are very topical. In terms of other things we can do, certainly, you know, universal background checks or stronger background checks are something that you hear about a lot. Um, we also know that um something as simple as requiring people to lock up their gun can save a lot of lives. So um, you know, just safe storage laws, storage laws, child access prevention laws. Um, you know, uh, and and those are certainly like um laws that can help us prevent mass shootings and and assassination attempts. I would note like Charlie Kirk's shooter, for example, got his gun out of his dad's house, right? If that gun had been locked, maybe it would have taken him a little longer, maybe he wouldn't have made it to the event. We don't know, right? But that is like that is something that I think needs to be asked. But, you know, it's also the case that um, you know, gun violence, of course, is the leading cause of death for children in the United States. The majority of those deaths are accidents because kids happen upon guns in their parents. It's like 4.6 million kids are living in a house with an unlocked loaded firearm. And if we are just able to turn that knob down a little bit, we could save a lot of lives. So when we think about a state like Arizona, certainly like there's high rates of gun ownership. Again, nothing wrong with that. Um, Senator Kelly has guns, Gabby has guns, but they're locked up. And getting people to lock up their guns, getting, you know, law enforcement, the tools they need to keep guns out of the hands of very dangerous people, those are some of the top things that we look at.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

That's that that's so interesting. And so it's you've you've been able to empirically prove that those measures have worked in those states.

Emma Brown:

Yes. And, you know, um again, like I lived in Arizona for a long time. I know that uh Arizonans hate nothing much more than a California example of something.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

But I if you'll if you'll like if you'll allow me.

Emma Brown:

California was one of the first states in the country to have a red flag law. And UC Davis did a study that found that in the first three years of that law's implementation, it had stopped 58 mass shootings in the state of California alone in that period of time. So you think that's one state over a couple of years, it's 58 mass shootings. That is a hundreds of people who did not die, right? So it this is not like a question anymore. We know that the red flag laws really work. We know that safe storage works. What we've been missing is enough of a bipartisan coalition to get it done.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

What has gone wrong? I mean, and what I if you could sort of uh encapsulate it, what what do you think has gone wrong to bring us to this the situation where it just feels like we we you know we we have made some progress, but there's so much that we haven't gotten done. Yeah, going all the way back to to that terrible day that Gabby was shot. Yeah.

Emma Brown:

Yeah, well, it's it's the right question. It's the question. I'm I'm glad you're asking it. You know, I I think from my perspective, it's a couple of things. Um, first, you know, we have a MAGA movement that has um seemed to be pretty help-bent on weakening um gun laws across the board, you know, making it easier for people to access firearms. And for some gun owners, you know, that comes from a place of wanting, you know, to be able to participate in hunting traditions and and shooting traditions, you know, but but too often it is the case that what happens is it makes it much easier for dangerous people to buy and use firearms, right? Um and we're at this moment right now where we see the Trump administration really acting to weaken, you know, even the basic safeguards that we have in place while they're defunding federal law enforcement and public safety programs, right? Left and right for a party that is so tough on crime, it is it is not all that tough on crime. So I think that's the first thing, you know. And then the second thing, folks always ask um, you know, 95% of the country supports uh universal background checks, right? 95% of the country. It's basically everybody. It's 92% of Trump voters. And so people then are like, okay, so what's the problem, right? How is it possible that that is the case? And we have, you know, the public policy the way that it is, what's responsible for this delta? And, you know, for us, it's actually um a story that goes all the way back to 2005 when the gun industry won broad immunity, federal immunity, right, from civil liability, which is something that you know very well. Um, but there was a law that was passed after some of the first big mass shootings. There was pressure on the gun industry to change its practices and adopt some better consumer safety protocols. And instead of doing that, they launched a very effective lobbying campaign and they won this immunity, um, which has made it made it hard for us to constrain them and their practices. And it's basically accelerated this trend where the industry makes, you know, increasingly uh dangerous weapons and sells them to increasingly dangerous people. And that's how we have arrived at this place. And I think there's a tremendous amount that our attorneys general can do that you are doing to both, you know, keep um guns out of the hands of very dangerous people and bring some accountability to the industry, right? Um, so that just like any industry that sells a product, we are insisting on higher standards, you know, insisting on products that are safer and marketing practices that are safer. So I think if you were to ask me like what's really at the core of this, yeah, I I believe it is it is the industry's immunity.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

You could you've been so successful um doing what you do in the way that you do it at the state level and the city level, you know, on something that's overwhelmingly supported by Americans, right? You would think you would think that we could. get something through Congress, especially something as as overwhelmingly supported, like you know, um dealing with uh ghost guns or dealing with forced reset triggers or dealing with you know gun show loopholes or even red flag laws. I mean I you would think. So do you do you still have hopes for for Congress coming around and doing something? I do, you know, I do have a hope for it.

Emma Brown:

Um something that we think a lot about is that the fact that um you know right after Sandy Hook um Gabby had been shot you know um just about two years prior. She and Senator Kelly spent a lot of time walking around Congress after the Sandy Hook shooting trying to get Democrats and Republicans to agree to some basic, you know, background check reforms. And they came up short, right? We lost that vote the mansion to me bill lost it by four votes and there's this terrible moment, right? Where Gabby's like standing in the Rose Garden with Obama and the Sandy Hook parents and you know I think a lot of people think about that as like the moment that we realized that something was very broken where 20 kindergartners died and we did nothing. And that was really the moment where the modern gun violence prevention movement was born. There had been a lot of work done at a state level at a ground level but there had not been really serious national investment on this issue until then. And then you know we went through to your point a lot of state level change. And then a decade after Sandy Hook, we had the Uvalde shooting. And it was the same situation in that there were 20 kids who died in a classroom except this time less than a month later you had the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act which was a modest piece of legislation right certainly not everything but it had not only every single Democrat it had 15 Republicans voting for it in the United States Senate 11 of whom are still there, I would add. So that is it's important. So it is yeah some of them retired but most of them are still there. And uh you know when we think about that we think about that split screen where you like couldn't get moderate Democrats to sign on to basic legislation to the point where you get 15 Republicans for it in the Senate, I think shows us that state level change ladders up to federal change. And also that unfortunately major federal progress is usually catalyzed by a terrible moment, right? A terrible moment of national tragedy where everybody is paying attention and a window opens and our job is to like run through the window right and have everything prepared right have our allies have our coalitions have our states ready to talk about how this legislation worked at a state level but you know in 2022 we had the largest investment in community violence intervention ever, right? We raised the age to buy a handgun to 21. We partially closed you know the boyfriend loophole, the dating loophole we did a lot of really, really important work that is saving so many lives and modest legislation but it happened and it happened you know against the odds. And so I do believe that Congress will take this up and will help us fix it, you know, eventually um and I think unfortunately it usually takes a massive tragedy to you know catalyze that which is really sad. Um and it's important to recognize that um this will happen again and when it does you know we will really need our leaders to act.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

So what I my theory is yes Congress is going to do something but it's gonna take a president who also makes this a priority.

Emma Brown:

I think that's probably right. I mean Joe Biden was a really important engine of that 2022 progress right like his White House made it their job to make that happen right and um yeah so I mean I think it I think it takes I think it takes all parts of it. I think it is hard it is hard for me to imagine Donald Trump you know getting there. I was thinking a future president. Yes yes no no no I know yeah but there's an interesting element like I don't know if you remember this after the Parkland shooting Trump was like we got to do the background checks like there's video of him sitting next to Chris Murphy sitting like in this room being like we got to get this done this is crazy. Which I think is an interesting data point of maybe his personal opinion. Yeah. And then unfortunately what we have seen is that um the gun lobby right and they get in the room got in the room right and then that that died. And I think that that is that is um part and parcel the problem right is that even if you have um folks who don't agree on much but can agree on this, like sometimes those people are controlled by special interests who will um shift the conversation and and that you know that is a problem. And you know I will say too I think one thing that has changed in the last 10 years importantly you know the NRA and the gun lobby um initially after there was a tragedy um made it so that it was um somehow disrespectful to start talking about like what could have prevented this tragedy while we were in a period of mourning, right? They made it um impossible or um you know inappropriate to be talking about quote unquote like the politics right and very effectively they like sealed the window within which any change would happen. And I think we have started in the last five years in particular really just insisting after Minnesota, right? You saw those parents some of whom we have spoken to you know being there a couple of days later being like do not let this happen again you know to somebody else's kids on the opening day of mass right like you know you see people moving in that direction. I think that's really important, right? So that we are acting with urgency when lives are lost to prevent more losses. And I think when there is a moment federally we will need the most ambitious aggressive action by our allies and we will need you know to have to talk to the president to your point you know and see if we can get them to a to a place of um God willing you know it's a different precedent but um get them to a place of of adopting some change.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah 100% okay thank you Emma Brown appreciate you being with us really appreciate it. We'll see you again soon okay see you soon well thanks everybody for listening to this episode of Pantsuits and Lawsuits.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

We appreciate you uh being with us yeah so download us wherever you can and um catch us on the next episode of what's certain to be a riveting discussion about all the goings on legally in our states and throughout the country.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Hang in there everybody