Pantsuits and Lawsuits with Attorneys General Kris Mayes and Dana Nessel

Free Speech Under Fire

• Attorneys General Kris Mayes & Dana Nessel

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Power concentrates in silence, and lately the silence is spreading. We unpack a sweeping pressure campaign against the First Amendment—on campuses, in briefing rooms, on city streets, and across shrinking newsrooms—with an unflinching look at how intimidation, lawsuits, and funding threats are changing the way America speaks and learns.

From protest crackdowns to new restrictive policies at the Pentagon, we trace how best practices are abandoned and dissent turned into a risk calculation. We talk about national outlets that can lawyer up, local stations that can’t, and why even a single settlement can send a chilling message across the entire industry. Veteran reporter Mary Jo Pitzl joins us to explain how newsroom economics, algorithmic incentives, and headline gamesmanship can reshape coverage, nudging editors toward safe choices and audiences toward confusion. Her decades of experience on the beat have made one thing clear: when institutions accept control over who asks questions and what gets printed, the public will never get the answers they deserve.

We also follow the pressure beyond media. Universities juggle academic freedom against the threat of defunding, law firms face retaliation for their clients, and nonprofits fear hosting events that could draw political ire. These choices create a quiet chill—self-censorship that never makes headlines but erodes civic life all the same. We share concrete steps to push back: collective action among schools and firms to spread the legal risk, smarter support for local journalism and public broadcasting, and a recommitment to rigorous reporting over viral bait.

Free speech isn’t self-executing; it survives because people use it. If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find it. Then tell us: where are you seeing the chill, and how should we fight it together?

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Hello everybody and welcome to this latest episode of Pantsuits and Lawsuits. I am Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

And I'm Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel, and we thank you for tuning in today.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Appreciate y'all joining us again. We have a really interesting topic today, and that is the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, which is definitely uh under assault right now in our country in a lot of different ways. And we're gonna talk about it first amongst ourselves here, Adina, and then also with an amazing reporter here in Arizona who I have known for a long time, including since I was a reporter covering politics for the Phoenix Gazette and the Arizona Republic.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Yeah, and I think um obviously you bring a unique perspective to this, not just of course, as an attorney and an attorney general, but somebody who's a former journalist. And I mean, there's there's just so much, and I'm just gonna really quickly uh and we can talk more about these things individually, but my God, just censorship on campus, you know, students who are being um, you know, deported based on whatever their potential viewpoint is, uh, censorship at universities in general, and you know, withholding funds if you don't teach the right classes or hire the right professors, targeting law firms, uh, and all that we've seen in regard to that. Uh, what the the direct assault on news agencies like CBS and ABC and Jimmy Kimmel, and the list goes on and on. Uh, I mean, there's a tremendous amount of insanity, is what I will say going on. And, you know, I mean, I wonder if you could talk about like this is so 1984 in every sh single way, shape, and form. I wonder as as a journalist, like, what is your perspective on all of this?

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

I mean, it's so it is, it's incredibly Orwellian. And um as a journalist, my take is that any any one of those things that you just listed would have been a gigantic scandal um in uh in any other administration, any one of those things, and you you just listed like five or six, and you one you didn't list, I'll add a set seventh or an eighth, which is um the people who are being the you know, citizens who are being attacked by ICE and border patrol in the streets of Chicago and LA and Portland who are just trying to exercise their free speech right to protest. They're being tackled, they're being um maced or uh attacked with pepper balls. And reporters. We've seen we've seen uh at least one, if not more, reporters tackled to the ground, uh detained for absolutely no no reason. These are the kinds of things that happen in other authoritarian countries. I shouldn't say other because ours basically is is one at this point. I mean, that is authoritarian, that is a dictatorship that is violating the First Amendment of our constitution.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Yeah, I mean, it's it's beyond, I mean, obviously, as I said, it's beyond anything that we've ever seen before. Oh, and we forgot to mention a few other things. What just happened at the Pentagon, uh, where um Pete Heds Hegzath telling reporters what they could or could not report on and how they could report or not report, so much so that nearly every single media outlet refused to sign this pledge uh to not be real reporters. Uh, and now you're just not gonna have media coverage of what's happening at the Pentagon at a time where we need it more than ever.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah. I mean, they're blowing up boats and kit literally murdering people in the Caribbean right now, um, and uh, you know, engaging in extra j judicial killings, aka murder, um, and doing all kinds of weird things like trying to intimidate the officer corps, firing uh admirals and generals, um, and you know, telling telling reporters how they're supposed to report, what they can report, uh, who they can talk to, who they're allowed to talk to. And, you know, you asked me as a former journalist, like, you don't do that. You don't allow no one. I mean, you you file lawsuits over things like that, over over efforts like that to to exert control over the media and to exert control over um to violate uh the first amendment.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Going back to when um they kicked the AP off the press corps because they refused to capitulate in in you know calling the Gulf uh of Mexico the Gulf of America. I mean, it was just insane. Like you can't make this stuff up, except for that it is so scary. And when you look now, you're actually seeing these news outlets. I know there's been a lot of discussion about like what's happened to CBS, right? And how you are replacing uh what are we long-standing uh and respected media institutions with, you know, basically state propaganda, uh just like they have in in Russia and they have in many other countries, where uh reports reporters are not allowed to be truly independent. They're beholden to the administration and they have to uh report in a way that is favorable to the administration.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah. You know, and it's interesting you mentioned that because I at first when all of that was happening, I thought to myself, okay, this is really bad. This is um to to, you know, for Trump to be filing lawsuits against um against major media outlets like ABC, you know, the Stephanopoulos lawsuit, or um, you know, threatening other lawsuits. I thought, okay, yeah, but they're not gonna capitulate. They're not gonna, they're not gonna change what they do. But I don't know about you. I've started to see and notice anchors and and reporters holding back in ways that I I'm fairly certain they wouldn't. I don't know if that's voluntary or not. But these are the kinds of things that are actually happening, and to your point, that's you know, that's like, you know, uh very, very uh, you know, Russian um in tone and nature. And uh I don't know. I I don't know where this ends, but it is very, very bad for our country and for our democracy. I guess you know it's interesting and and and going back to what you said early on, and you know, that this is so widespread. This attack on the First Amendment is so widespread in terms of the number of institutions that are impacted. And some have been good about standing up to this, right? You know, some of the law firms have stood up against it, and I think they've been rewarded uh by clients for doing that, but some have not. And some universities have have stood up against it, and some have not. Um, some media outlets have done a better job of standing up against it. You know, I would say the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times have not capitulated, which I think is interesting. But can can the weaker outlets, um, especially the more local outlets, can they stand up against it? Um the Jimmy Kimmel situation that you mentioned, well, that took a huge public backlash to back Brendan Carr and the FCC and Trump off of that, right? And and the actual uh um uh media outlet, right? So I don't know. I don't know. I don't I my question to you would be w how does how does how do we how do we stand up to this? Because as AGs, we don't we're not necessarily first in line to to do that lawsuit or to do that work, right? Those are private institutions or in some cases public universities. How do we get through that? Well, my Dana.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

My, you know, what I said to some of the universities here in Michigan is band together, right? We know that it it feels like an impossible situation for them because they're looking at enormous funding losses. Yeah, and even if they're gonna win those cases in court, in the meantime, while they're not getting that funding, they're having to lay off hundreds of people to uh terminate programs that they've had in place sometimes for decades and decades, but band together. And I've said this to you, you know, we we have a lot of big 10 schools here in Michigan. Uh, and as you know, um the Big Ten is no longer the Big Ten, it's like the Big 50 or something.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

But if they all think together, I think we we all joined, I think.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Yeah, yeah. We have I don't even I can't even keep track anymore. But the thing is, if they if they all banded together and said, you attack one of us, you attack all of us, and we are each going to fight back and we're gonna do it collectively, then you could do something about it, you know, and uh and and you'd win, you'd be successful, but you continue. This is a this is an ongoing conversation that we've had for months and months now, is that the more that you capitulate, the more that you engage in appeasement, the more and more that Trump and his administration is gonna try to get, and it'll never stop. Uh, and the only way to you know to defeat a bully is to stand up to him.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah, there's not gonna be public outrage rage over everything. And I noticed um on your socials that you were up in the UP. Is that what it's called? The UP talking to the University of Michigan University up there, Northern Michigan University, Northern Michigan, which hosts the PBS station.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

That's right, and they are having all kinds of issues because of the defunding uh of PBS. It's really impacting them and a lot of other places as well, where that's the only place to get, you know, your news. That's the only place you find out if there's going to be some um really significant weather incident and you need to know about it, you get it from your local PBS station. And now there are folks that are just not going to receive that information at all, even when it's an emergency set of circumstances.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

And that, I mean, I think that's something that a lot of folks don't know, and we probably need to do a better job. And good, good on you for going up and talking about that, because I assume that's what you were trying to do. Um, um, and um, yeah, I noticed you were wearing a jacket. Must be good. Yeah, it's very cold in northern Michigan. It is cold. Well, kind of chilly.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

That's a whole other conversation about climate change that we have.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

So we are so excited for the chance to talk to um a good friend of mine and somebody that I have uh frankly idolized for many, many years, uh, going back to when I was a reporter. Uh her name is Mary Joe Pitzel. She is um now retired from the Arizona Republic, where she was a reporter and has been a reporter, journalist in Arizona for 40 more than 40 years. And she's here to talk to us, help us uh through all of these gnarly issues related right now to the First Amendment. Mary Joe, welcome uh to our podcast.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

So I'm coming to you from a hotel room in San Diego.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

So excellent. All right, good. I'm glad you're getting a little bit of a.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

I was gonna say your your uh decor in your home reminds me a little bit of uh our holiday ends.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

So all right, let's jump into a conversation because we want to get your take, uh uh MJ. I was telling Dana just a second ago about, you know, the ever everything that Trump is doing to throttle the media and to violate the First Amendment, it comes on top of changes that are going on inside the media world. Um, changes to newspapers, newspapers dying, even television stations coming under dress. So can you talk a little bit about that, you know, and your experience with that?

Mary Jo Pitzl:

Yeah, I mean, it's uh it's a really interesting convergence. And um, I mean, the media was changing long before Trump came along, especially I think, you know, very widespread distrust of media, especially mainstream media. You know, it's very it's become very common to just dismiss uh like publications for which I used to work um as you know uh fake press, that it's it's not the fake media, it's not real. Um so that's been a real a real problem, and it's been accelerated, I think, by the current administration.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

It just seems to me in watching, you know, uh the news outlets that we're already seeing reporters and anchors hold back and you know, or maybe even say things that they wouldn't otherwise say and stories that would have been written aren't or or done aren't being done. What do you think? Am I am I am I stretching there or do you are you seeing that too?

Mary Jo Pitzl:

Oh no, I I don't think you're stretching it. Um, and I think you see that more on the national, you know, uh platform, you know, the cables, and in certainly the editorial policies of certain um nationwide newspapers. I mean, the Washington Post being, you know, the most recent example. Also, this is coming at a time, as I said, it's a convergence in mainstream media, a lot of media outlets are losing subscribers. Um, they're that they don't have as much money. Lawsuits are really expensive to defend against. I know that where I used until just recently used to work, um, they weigh very carefully when to step in with litigation because of the cost.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Is that why the you know the various different media outlets are so willing to capitulate when they get sued by the administration? Um, it's been shocking to me to see them paying out uh Donald Trump for things they did that, again, don't constitute any actual cause of action. Uh, and yet they are settling these cases as though they, you know, uh are legally responsible um for having somehow breached uh Donald Trump's uh rights. I mean, it's it's insane to me.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

Yeah, it's uh it's been very disturbing to see the um the restrictions. And I I know like later on you might want to talk about prior restraint, but really the biggest danger there is not prior restraint from the government, it's media restraining itself because it fears things like um like uh big lawsuits that they can't or don't want to defend against.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

You know, thinking about just you know, 20, 25 years ago when I was a reporter, the idea that the Arizona Republic or or any any major news outlet would capitulate in this way just would have been unthinkable, like unthinkable.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Um, you know, I have a question for you about um the press secretary, Caroline uh Levy. Uh her behavior has been fascinating to me. Most recently, her exchange, I believe, with a Huffington Post reporter, uh, where the reporter, I believe, asked, like, you know, what made you decide to have this next meeting with Russia and Ukraine in Budapest, which had a lot of significance for various different reasons. Uh, and then her response was, um, your mom. In terms of who made the suggestion. Uh, that was her actual, like, she, in speaking to a reporter, it was a very serious question, you know, whose decision was it? And she said, basically, your mama. Maybe I'm misreading the situation. It seemed highly unprofessional to me, but again, I have no formal training in this area.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

Well, I mean, I will say that, you know, snark from presidential uh press secretaries is um not unheard of. Um, it's it's happened before and and it happens. Again, for the journalists, you know, the um the importance is how you respond to that. I mean, you've got to persist with the question because that is not that's not an answer and it's disrespectful. Um, but you've got to sort of soldier on and and hopefully we get back to Levit, you know, and press her for a more uh more coherent answer. But I mean, I don't know, you know, snarky press secretaries um, you know, are on the rise. And I think again, what we see on the national level, a lot of that's empowered by the permission structure from from the Trump administration. You know, the the media is the enemy.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah, and I think also, you know, there for Carolyn Levitt or Pam Bondy when she was testifying, if you want to call it that, in front of the Judiciary Committee, their audience is an audience of one, right? I mean, it's Donald Trump sitting in the in the Oval Office. When I see the media, media that they now have credentialed, uh, and they are and that they basically now almost exclusively take questions from, it's like these I don't know where these people came from. They're all right-wing media, they're not actual real uh media outlets. And then maybe they'll let ABC News or some, you know, actual journalist, professional journalists ask one question. I mean, is that what is that? And what what is the impact of that?

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Yeah. And I will say, even during the exchange, you'll see it's not just Carolyn Levitt, but it is also the president when he's talking to reporters, where he just openly insults the reporter uh during the course of what is oftentimes a very valid, legitimate question.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

Yeah, well, media, again, media gets beat up a lot of times. I mean, and you know, we can we can be irritating. Um, you know, we our job is to ask ask questions, uh, sometimes inconvenient questions, and to be persistent. But yeah, it again, this seems like, you know, a new level. Um, I think the bigger concern is like we saw with the Pentagon, you know, I think the Pentagon said that after they issued this new policy that, you know, you can work in the building if you sign this statement that you'll basically only write about our press releases, it's ushered in a whole new era of journalists. And they are they are all you know from the right wing. I I don't know if I can think of any of them, any names of of these media outlets. Again, this all goes with, you know, we want to get our message out, you know, from the administration, and we don't want contrary questions. Um, and I uh you know, pray to God that that does not happen with the White House briefing room. It's important to have you know those voices in there, um, even if it's you know, even if you're gonna get a response that's um insulting, um, even if you don't get called on, you know, you can at least be there to you know shout out the questions and and raise a ruckus if if necessary. But um that actually sort of serves the administration's um ends if you raise too much of a ruckus. Um there is a certain amount of decorum that that needs to be kept. But it it it limits again, it it underscores the importance to have you got to work things from the outside. A long time an editor told me, you know, you can work a story two ways. You can go, you can work from the inside and get to know all the insiders, or you can work it from the outside. And sometimes coming in from the outside um is the best way to go.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Interesting. I'm I'm curious um what your thoughts are on independent media. I mean, is that and and on social media sort of YouTube um uh uh shows and influencers? You know, that seems to be and the balkanization of media, which really is putting pressure in its own way on mainstream media or or large media outlets. But can can you just can you just tell our viewers a little bit about that? The the change in journalism in terms of what you have to do. The fact that, I mean, you know, now you're doing podcasts, you're doing video, you're doing you're not just writing stories anymore. You're literally being asked to do everything.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

Yes, yeah, it really changed from when I came in as a baby reporter. My job was to, you know, write a story. I did I did write on a computer, uh, typewriters were passe by then. Um, and you wrote the story. You went out and reported and wrote a story. Editors edited it and put headlines on it. Well, over the years that that changed. You know, we had to write stories, then we would have to do stand-ups on TV, um, and then we would have to do blogs and then start taking your own pictures. That's where iPhones really you know came in handy and led to a reduction of professional photographers in news outlets. I don't know where this is all gonna land, but I do think the balkanization will continue. And we have a proliferation of platforms, you know, with audio and video and substack, and you know, we still print the news on paper and drop in people's driveways. Um, that still happens sometimes, um, and digital. So uh there's so many places to go to get news that it really takes some work and some discernment to figure out where you're getting you know the real deal. Like, you know, if you're getting all your news off of Twitter um, you know, or X, sorry, um, you know, it it's a sad day. And likewise, if you're getting all your news off of Blue Sky, I mean, sometimes reading, sitting down and reading something that goes for more than like two paragraphs is really helpful to be an informed citizen.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Mary Joe, one of the things that kind of has interested me though, as we've seen this shift, is that, you know, even for a well-respected journalist, it seems as though the story has to be written in a way that uh has clickbait attached to it. Like it has to have something kind of spicy or juicy that gets a person to click on it and read the article in the first place, which I think does a real disservice actually to the work of that journalist, because oftentimes it's sort of a misrepresentation of what you're gonna end up reading about later, which might be more dry or boring, but it is factually accurate. And then a lot of times people only read that headline, and then that's what they come away with. They don't actually read the story.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

Yeah, this is called search engine optimization or SEO, as I'm sure everybody's heard about. And it really does hinge on the headlines. Um, I um you want to have the sexiest headline, which often, if not sexy, a headline that asks a question. So you leave something sort of hanging so that people want to click to find out, well, what's the answer? You know, you don't the old school journalism used to be that you would write the most important facts at the top of your story, the the inverted pyramid. Inverted it's really almost inverted the other direction. Um, you want to put the tantalizer at the top and then draw people in so you know, so that they will engage with the story. But yeah, there's all kinds of metrics, and you know, Google drives a lot of how stories are structured. Um, but the headlines are the real, are the ones that really get a lot of the focus and the emphasis. And sometimes they don't even really match the story well.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

You know, I think I'd be really good at this. Like what I would do is this I'd be like, was attorney gener, did attorney general Chris Mays work as a stripper? Question mark, and then in the story be like, no, but you did just file this lawsuit uh regarding you know food assistance, and then like the board and stuff about the lawsuit. So it it would be it technically, it would be an accurate story because and I would be answering that questions, but you know, would people click on that? Yeah, I'd click on that, sure.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

Well, click you could use that as a headline on your own press releases, Chris.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

That's true, I guess. If that's what it takes to get people to read about, you know, our Snap uh benefit lawsuit. But anyway, that's the thing.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

You don't want to get to that level. And because believe it or not, there's a segment of readers that would be that are really turned off by you know all these plays, you know, to to get your curio to make you curious and make you click. Sometimes I try to avoid the clickbait when I'm reading, even though I'm curious. Um, I sort of want to know, but I'm like, maybe I should just not, I don't want to feed the beast by by doing that. It it really it really distorts people's perceptions of what's going on.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

I don't know what you're doing next, Mary Joe. You haven't, I don't think you've revealed that to the world yet, but I'm sure you'll you'll end up somewhere where you're uh hopefully where you're not gonna have to do as much clickbait, but um just the great journalism you do. Before we let you go though, I would just be curious. We were talking, Dana and I were talking in the lead up to this uh segment about some of the other examples of first violations of the First Amendment that are happening under this administration, including you know, uh the threats to our universities, the threats to, you know, the deportations of students based on what what how they're protesting or what their views are, the um the threats to law firms if they don't capitulate and they don't uh you know, based on and the based on the cases they've taken in the past, all kinds of what what are you most worried about outside of the just a direct impact to to media? What what worries you the most in terms of all that?

Mary Jo Pitzl:

That this won't be stopped. Where does this end? You know, does this end or does this evolve into people just buttoning up and not saying things, you know, um, you know, uh censoring themselves or muting themselves, which is very, very, very concerning. Um, because the ability to speak um is enshrined in the first just speak your mind. Um, it's speech is protected by the constitution. That's a bigger concern, is that people will just sort of um lose their voice.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Just uh just today, um, you know, in furtherance of this lawsuit that we've referenced a few times now involving SNAP benefits that um many of the Democratic AGs are involved in, we were looking to do a press conference at uh a food bank because we also wanted to, you know, to get their perspective and what they're saying and what their concerns and fears are. And we found that many food banks did not want to host this press conference, even though this is this is an utter, you know, tragedy for them on an epic scale in terms of the number of people who are going to go without food. And that's their whole job. Like they're there to serve hungry people who can't afford uh to eat um another way uh and obtain their food from another uh you know from other sources. And and that that that to me tells you everything, right?

Mary Jo Pitzl:

That's the sort of self-censorship that happens. And that's if that becomes pervasive, you know, it it's that's very, very scary because then the control is all with, in this case, the government. Um, and that is not healthy for our our society. I mean, and really where all this is leading, you know, ultimately is uh the courts. Um I mean it's in the courts, but it's all getting up to the Supreme Court, and that's the big, that's the big, big question mark that I think um everybody's waiting to see what's gonna happen.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

I was gonna say, in the words of United States House of Representatives speaker Michael Johnson, bring it, sister.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

You said that about me, Mary Joe, but yeah, yeah, on the Grahalva case. Yeah, Grahalva.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Yeah, we appreciate you joining us on pantsuits and lawsuits to explain to us and and to everybody um how how journalism is working today and how we can get through this together. So thank you so much for being on with us. It's great to see you again.

Mary Jo Pitzl:

Yeah, it's great to speak with both of you.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Thanks so much. Thanks, everybody.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Uh and until now. Next time, follow us on all your social media platforms for daily updates about the exciting work of our departments.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

And continue to speak out about the injustices that you're witnessing out there. We need you, we need everyone to continue exercising their your First Amendment uh rights in America.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

And be rest assured uh that uh your attorneys general, or at least the democratic ones, are fighting as hard as we can to protect our way of life, hopefully for generations to come.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

See y'all next time.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

By the way, I was on I was on this program and they uh specifically played the Mike Johnson portion of him talking about you. And I was like, what a badge of honor for A. G Mays to have Mike Johnson trash talking you the way he did. And I just I thought he said, bring it, sister. Yeah, and I was like, oh, it's gonna be brought. You can bet, A.G. May. Like, I would have done, I mean, I would have died for that because it was just hilarious. So good for you.

Attorney General Kris Mayes:

Nobody asked me about it in the media. I was like, I was ready with my retort. I was gonna say, okay, brought it, brother.

Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Oh my god, you should have. It was hilarious. All right.