Pantsuits and Lawsuits with Attorneys General Kris Mayes and Dana Nessel

Cleaning Up Power: Fighting Public Corruption

• Attorneys General Kris Mayes & Dana Nessel

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Power protects itself—until someone pulls the thread. We sit down with New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin to unpack how public corruption actually works, why it inflates your bills and weakens your services, and what it takes to hold powerful people to the same laws as everyone else. From the misuse of tax credits to officials running private ventures from public offices, we break down real cases, hard lessons, and the reforms that followed.
 
 We talk candidly about the pressure that comes with prosecuting the well connected: claims of “weaponization,” media megaphones used against prosecutors who can’t respond, and the Supreme Court decisions that narrowed federal corruption tools. That’s where state attorneys general step up. Platkin explains the history behind New Jersey’s strong anti-corruption statutes, while Nessel shares Michigan’s recent overhaul of opaque earmarks—forcing sponsors to testify and face specific votes. These aren’t abstract fixes; they’re working guardrails that deter the next scheme.
 
 The conversation turns to the hidden “corruption tax”: dark money washing through politics, utility influence that distorts rates and reliability, and FOIA gaps that breed suspicion. We explore practical solutions with broad public support: banning stock trading for officials with enforcement power, tough financial disclosures, cooling-off periods to slow the revolving door from elected official to lobbyist, robust public financing to elevate small donors, and a sustained push to overturn Citizens United. If the system looks rigged, trust dies; if the rules are clear and enforced, trust returns dollar by dollar.
 
 If you care about honest government, pocketbook fairness, and the health of democracy, this one matters. Listen, share with a friend, and tell us the first anti-corruption reform you want to see in your state. And if you believe this work should continue, subscribe, leave a review, and help more people find the show.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Hi again and welcome to another uh riveting episode of Pan Suits and Lawsuits, your favorite podcast to learn about the legal issues that are shaping the world around you, whether you like it or not. Uh, I'm your host, Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel, and we are joined again by New Jersey Attorney General Matt Placken. Welcome back to the podcast, Matt.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Thanks so much for having me again. I guess we didn't bomb too bad the last time.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Oh, no, no. It was fantastic. I one of the things I wanted to talk about, Matt, because you have been uh so ferocious uh in regard to uh public corruption cases and and rooting out public corruption in the state of New Jersey. Public corruption, though, is is a significant issue in states all around uh the United States, of course, and um, you know, Michigan and New Jersey are not immune from it. And it falls upon generally the Attorney General to do the bulk of the major uh uh cases involving public corruption, especially during a time period where the Department of Justice um seems to be uh more, uh I guess in favor of corruption than anti-corruption. Uh so I thought we would talk a little bit about some of the work that you did, really um, you know, standing out uh in terms of um your understanding of how important this is and the work that you've done, the cases that you've brought, uh, and maybe the enemies that you made along the way as a result.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

I sleep very well at night knowing that I did what's right. We take on tough cases. Look, you take on tough corruption cases, you're gonna have some setbacks. So if you want to have a record that, you know, is perfect, then you're not gonna probably take on powerful people because when you do, sometimes uh, you know, cases are these cases are tough. Um, and these powerful people are powerful for a reason.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Um so and also you you start a case and you never know where it's gonna lead to. Yeah. So there have been many times where we start a case where you know it's it's not somebody who is a high-level uh potentially elected leader or something, but sometimes it ends up going in that direction, whether you know it's gonna go there or not, and you have to go where the evidence leads you.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Yeah, and look, in all of our cases, we investigate crimes. We don't investigate people. So when we get allegations of misconduct, we look at it and we pull the thread. And I think that's our obligation. I think the political decision is actually not to do something. Then you're saying somebody's above the law. Well, you may not come out and say you may not realize it, but if you're deciding not to pursue a case because of who's involved, you've just made a political decision.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

But I will say, coming into office back in 2019, two of my um first cases involved a case against a Democratic uh county prosecutor from McCone County and a Democratic uh clerk from the city of Southfield. And, you know, I I'm sure people were not happy with the fact that that I went full force on those cases and both of them ended up um being convicted of felonies, uh, both of them were removed from office. Uh, but you know, that's the job.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

I completely agree. I think that this is an issue that the public cares a lot about. Uh, and I think it's one that I know I've seen up close. Yeah, you know, corruption is real. I mean, if people want to pretend we don't have a corruption problem in this country, and frankly, in the state of New Jersey, then I think they're living under a rock because the vast majority of people see these deals, the wealthy and well-connected getting a better deal than they are, um, and they're sick of it. And uh, I don't blame them for being sick of it. You know, when they see the president and his friends and family just enriching themselves seemingly by the billion um, you know, every day. And then you can't then only care about corruption some of the time. You can't care about it when it's people on the other side of the political aisle and not when it's in your own party. So um I've taken corruption seriously. Uh, and we've we've used the tools we have in my department to hold accountable people who abuse the public trust. And we'll talk about this, but you know, and you've lived this too. When you take on powerful people and organizations, they don't like it and they have a bully pulpit. You don't see in gang or drug Rico cases, which we bring um all the time, you don't see the accusations publicly about the ethics of the prosecutors, um, about their integrity, about quote-unquote weaponization. I mean, if you just listen to frankly, what most what many Democrats in New Jersey are saying, it mirrors what Donald Trump says. And I think it's opened the door to these baseless attacks on people who are doing important work to restore and strengthen public trust. And so I'm very concerned about not just in New Jersey, but across the country, this idea that powerful people can get away with misdeeds by painting prosecutors who ethically can't go out and talk about their cases and don't have the bully pulpit that some of these folks do. Um, it has really become open season. And so I think it's really important that we as attorneys general send a clear message that we're gonna do this work. I don't care if people don't like it. And by the way, we're gonna be consistent in how we do it. We're gonna hold you accountable. Anybody who breaks the law is gonna be held accountable. We don't get treated better or worse because of your position. Um, and I think that's our obligation in this role.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

The Department of Attorney General in our respective states really are naturally um the obvious office to be handling these cases because a lot of times they are complex financial fraud cases. And it's just something that your local county prosecutor just does not have the resources or the staff to handle. Um, and also many times they don't want to handle the cases because it involves people in their community. It's it could be somebody on a county commission that actually funds their office, or it could be local township officials and they feel like they're just too close to it. So oftentimes it's better for it to be handled by the state AG who probably doesn't have those kinds of close relationships with those individuals. Because I know that I have an entire unit that handles nothing but public corruption cases. What about New Jersey?

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Yeah, well, first of all, I couldn't agree more with the premise. And I also think something you said earlier is important to underscore. Even before the Trump administration, when they, I agree, have totally 180 from prosecuting corruption to promoting it. Um, this the United States Supreme Court has made it almost impossible to bring corruption cases absent somebody saying things on a wire or finding gold bars in their closet that sort of put them dead to rights. The Supreme Court has narrowed these laws so much from what I believe was their original intent that it's essentially tied the hands of federal prosecutors in many cases. So states often have, and New Jersey's a good example of this, we have a really strong anti-corruption statute. Um and my office was created, or at least a lot of the powers in our office was created specifically to combat corruption. Um, not many people know this, but um, you know, in the 1960s, there was a series of magazine exposes about corruption and the mafia in New Jersey, and it actually led to the creation of the Division of Criminal Justice in my department, which is the strongest uh prosecution agency in the state and one of the strongest state-level prosecution authorities in the country, and specifically to bring complex cases like the ones you're talking about.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Tell us about some of your investigations that you have found to be the most impactful in terms of what you've uncovered. And hopefully, in doing so, maybe uh laws have been passed or policies have been changed as a result.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Look, we've had a number of important cases that we've resolved here. We had the largest ever payment as part of a corruption case to the state uh by a company that was alleged to have misused a tax credit program. They paid $5 million and agreed to a monitor for all their tax credit applications. Um, we prosecuted a mayor who was running his private business out of his office. We prosecuted public officials who were um uh obtaining government or uh uh public benefits, health benefits, and others that um they weren't entitled to obtain under the law, which led to changes in how um cities across our state were administering their benefits. Again, these are taxpayer-funded um uh benefits that they were obtaining. And I know everyone's appropriately, myself included, focused on people's cost of living and affordability the affordability crisis. Well, corruption feeds into that. I I didn't learn everything in uh college economics, but I did learn that there's no such thing as a free lunch. And when somebody's skimming off the top, when somebody's taking money from the taxpayers, guess what? We pay for it. We pay for it in higher health care costs and higher taxes and higher education costs, um, and our goods are more expensive. And so all of these things are intertwined. Um, I think the tax credit investigations are significant. Uh you know, they can call it whatever they want. Tax credits are essentially state expenditures because you're paying uh out of future tax revenues to incentivize certain types of activity, business activity, whatever it may be. But, you know, too often you see, and even in this Department of Justice, you see them investigating and prosecuting relatively low-level offenders who are in as individuals, you know, whether it be um uh Medicaid fraud or SNAP or whatever, like, but ignoring that some businesses are taking millions and millions of dollars from the state under false pretenses. So we looked at that type of conduct. Some cases became criminals, some didn't. But just the fact that I think we were looking at it sent a real message and increased accountability. The law were changed that increased accountability in those programs, increased um the types of certifications that are required, and made sure that if we're gonna make an investment and say the state of New Jersey is gonna invest in growing a certain business or sector, which is the policy choice of an administration and legislature, and I have no fault with that. But we better get what we're paying for. There's a cost to this, right? Like we have New Jersey has a property tax crisis. And when you look at what is driving it, I I would argue it's it it no small part is being driven by a corruption tax. You know, if people who are well connected are getting sort of sweetheart deals that cost more than they should be costing, or they're taking benefits that they're not entitled to, those are not free. And so when towns actually take that seriously because they fear accountability, I wish they took it seriously because of what the law says, but you know, the law is only as good as how much it's being enforced. So when people start seeing, like, oh crap, you know, we're starting to enforce this law. Guess what? They started taking it seriously and they re at towns across and cities across our state reassessed. So it had a big impact. And I'm proud of that. And that's, I think, you know, you bring cases because somebody has committed wrongdoing. I don't think you use the criminal uh code to, you know, uh score a policy victory. But often out of a big case will come significant policy reforms, and that I do think is a very good thing. And I think it's something that gets lost when we stop doing this work.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Yeah, I will say some of our investigations, for instance, um uh some involved um the alleged misappropriation of earmarks, uh, earmarks that were targeted to uh friends or contributors or donors uh to either high-level members of the legislature or the governor. And, you know, I I'm proud of the fact that the way we do earmarks in Michigan now, as of this past session, has now changed. And before, like no one even knew, like, where did this appropriation come from? You know, who was the legislature, uh, the legislator that sponsored it? Um, who was the one who pushed this through? Nobody even knew. And now not only do you have to have a specific sponsor, but that sponsor has to testify before a committee to say, I am supporting this earmark. Here's why, here's who it will help, here's how it will be implemented. Uh, and then, you know, uh a vote is taken specifically as whether or not that earmark can be passed. It's not part of this just giant budget bill where, you know, nobody knows what's heaping in it until they've had an opportunity to read it a week later.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Rules matter and they matter if you enforce them. We are now dealing with a little bit of the opposite. And this really bothers me. And in fact, I made some very public testimony along with Senator Andy Kim on this, because they're now, because we've been so active, they actually are trying to pass laws that strip powers away from corruption agencies or weaponize uh other committees against law enforcement. Um, and I think again, those there was a high-profile instance in New Jersey where this happened a couple weeks ago. It failed miserably. I think they're totally misreading the moment. People are fed up. I think they're watching the president literally tear down the White House and pat his pockets and that of his friends. Um, and to think that you could then that this is the time when we're going to sort of be cartoonishly corrupt in New Jersey in a state that has, you know, unfortunately, a history of cartoonishly corrupt conduct. Um, you know, good luck to them if they think that's where the public is, because the outcry was quite clear and immediate when when they tried to do that.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

On the downside, though, um, it seems as though it maybe has caused a rift between you um and former governor Chris Christie.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

He's not my biggest fan. Um we're just gonna keep doing the work that we're doing. And I know how we approach this work. We approached it with career prosecutors and investigators, people who have tremendous integrity, people who have received awards from the highest levels of the country to do this work. Um, and there's not been a single case ever where I've gone to people and said, this is who we're prosecuting, go get them. The same way Susie Wiles admitted at Infinity Fair this week was how they operated with our colleague Tish James. So they can say whatever they want. Chris Christie can say whatever he wants. I don't really care. Um, we're I'm proud of the fact that we have taken on tough and powerful interests that have broken the law. And as a result, I think we've sent a message that corruption is gonna be taken seriously in New Jersey.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

But this brings up, though, an important point, which is that, you know, even though as New Jersey Attorney General, you are selected and appointed by the governor, you're still a separate entity from the governor. You don't work for, you know, at the behest of the governor, nor can the governor fire you uh if he doesn't like the work you're doing. For myself, I get a lot of people who believe I somehow work for Governor Whitmer. I don't. I'm an independently elected statewide constitutional office holder. Uh, and I think it's important that there be a separation, even when you are of the same party, even when you are um an appointee of the governor, if we had to say, okay, we can't investigate anyone that has any connections in any way, shape, or form to the governor, um, unfortunately, there'd be a lot of cases that uh would, you know, be swept under the rug that really need to be delved into. And it maybe doesn't ingratiate us always to our our, you know, members of our own party, but that's part of the job.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Yeah, look, uh uh New Jersey obviously is an appointed attorney general. As you noted, we have very strong protections. I I once you're confirmed by the Senate, you have to be impeached, actually, which not even the United States Attorney General is afforded that um protect level of protection. Um, I take independence seriously. And by the way, this isn't just and I should note, so is Governor Murphy, uh, especially on criminal and civil enforcement measures. When I was in the governor's office, I was Governor Murphy's counsel for the first three years of the administration. We worked with the attorney general to put something in place that we call our contacts policy. Um, we put it on our website. It was modeled after what the Department of Justice and the White House used to have, obviously, clearly ripped out uh of the playbook under this administration. But we're very strict about the types of even types of contacts that can go between the two offices. Um, and there is no contact when it comes to criminal enforcement work. I think that protects everybody. I think it's important. Look, this work, again, is supposed to be about investigating and prosecuting crimes. That's what we do. Sometimes those crimes are committed by people no one has heard of. Sometimes they're committed by people that are prominent individuals in our states. So what? So if anybody thinks they can call the governor and get some kind of special treatment, well, guess what? He's not even allowed to call us. And they have they adhere to that. And I think that's really important for folks to understand. And what we're seeing happening in Washington, uh, you know, it just breeds a distrust in everything everybody else does. So that's what I and I said this when I testified, you know, we have an obligation both to do the work, but also to do everything we can to combat in actuality and the appearance of corruption at a time when cynicism and distrust in government are at all-time highs, goes back to the early days of campaign finance reform, well before Citizens United. We used to have uh a legal ability to combat the appearance of corruption. Because if people think we're corrupt, even if we're not, that faith in government is just gone. And that's the situation we're in right now. There's a whole lot of real corruption. I mean, you and I have seen it, we fought it. You know, Bob Menendez had gold bars in his closet. That really happened. Those are real corrupt acts. The problem is when you then do things that not only don't address the corruption itself, but create this atmosphere, this perception of corruption, that everybody thinks we're all corrupt. I can't sit there and tell people that they're wrong. I can't say to them when our state legislature decides at 9 p.m. on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving to introduce legislation, or our state senate, excuse me, introduce legislation that guts one of the few watchdogs we have under the guise that we have too much anti-corruption work and tries to implement a legislative body that can wiretap and prosecute my office for prosecuting corruption. This is a real thing that happened uh that we defeated. How do I sit anybody and look them in the eye and say, you know what? No, we're taking corruption seriously as a state. I'm taking it seriously. I think there are some other folks who are. I think Senator Andy Kim's taking it seriously. Uh, but I don't know. If I if I saw that as an ordinary citizen, not as the attorney general, I would throw my hands up and say, what the hell is going on down there? And I think that is actually what happened uh across our state a couple of weeks ago. And it just furthers this narrative and this perception that everybody in government's bad. And I actually don't believe that because I've seen a lot of corrupt acts, but I've also seen a lot of good people in government. And it makes their jobs and our jobs so much harder when we don't take this issue seriously. I think it's foundational to where we are as a country right now and why we have the problems that we have.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Yeah, I agree. And unfortunately, when it comes to transparency issues, the various different um nonprofits or entities that review state by state what their laws and their policies are routinely provide an F grade to Michigan because we have such an incredible lack of transparency. Our governor and our legislature are not subject to FOIA. I am, and the state agencies and the Secretary of State are their offices are, but not the governor, not the state house or Senate. And we have uh the proliferation of um 501c4 nonprofits that routinely are used as slush funds. And we we don't call it bribery outright, but when you have various different stakeholders, whether they are the utilities or whether they're um, you know, health insurance uh companies or whether they're, you know, anyone who has an interest in doing govern business before state government, and you have an endless amount of money, dark money, that goes into these packs for the benefit of a particular office holder, it's just hard to explain it to anyone in a way that they would think it's anything but a system that involves bribery and quid pro quos. Um, and there's so much that the public doesn't get to see. And so, of the many ways that I think things like Citizens United have has been very, very harmful to us, it's the fact that how how can the public think that government, whether it's at the local, state, or federal level, is anything but corrupt with the system that has evolved. And that that's the part that I think is really difficult because you start from a place of having to explain yourself, yeah, uh, because the the laws don't allow for the kind of transparency that the public um deserves to have. And, you know, we we just had a really significant vote by a um uh a commission that we have in Michigan called the Michigan Public Service Commission, all appointed by the governor. And they're the ones who make decisions uh about our utilities. Uh again, you don't have any competition. Uh you should not, and it's something as critical as your gas and your electric. You shouldn't be able to dominate uh an entire state legislature and all the executive offices the way that our utilities do. In Michigan, it's led to the highest rates uh virtually anywhere in the country and the worst service because that's what you get when you can buy and sell uh elected officials as easily as those uh entities do. And it's hard when you have these dark money packs and you have things like the utilities that are pouring, you know, not tens of thousands, not you know, hundreds of thousands, but millions upon millions of dollars into these dark money packs for the benefit of the governor. And then you have a board that's appointed by the governor that has to make a decision about whether, you know, these particular utilities will get a rate increase or get a specific project that's going to enrich them. Uh, I know that's complicated, but we're seeing it here in Michigan, and maybe the members of that commission are acting in good faith, but no one is going to believe that they are acting responsibly because they understand the setup and the system appears to be one that is corrupt. What's I think most concerning out of everything that we've talked about is when you talk about this going all the way to the top, um, it's people's loss of faith in the United States Supreme Court because what are clear, um, clearly corrupt acts that are happening there. And obviously, we've we've heard multiple stories at this point. Obviously, there was uh a whole expose done on Clarence Thomas and the connections that he had and all the trips and vacations and you know his massive uh motorhome. And just people start thinking, oh my God, if the United States Supreme Court is corrupt, how can we count on there being justice anywhere in the nation?

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Yeah, look, I think there's no question we live in a democratic system for a reason. We believe that through representative democracy, people's interests can be served better than through, you know, strongmen. That's at least core to who we are supposed to be as a nation. I think that some of those principles are being tested right now. Um, but that system requires buy-in from the general public. And the people who have the privilege of holding office, I think you got to go above and beyond to show the public that you are doing everything right. I mean, when I first got into politics and government in New Jersey, I took a huge pay cut. And I was proud to do that because we're doing things the right way. I've had people come to me and say, oh, you know, everybody here takes goes these free dinners and things that uh my ethics rules don't allow me to do. Um sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who follows them. But I do it because how am I supposed to go out and say to everybody else, we're gonna hold you accountable if you break the law, if I don't take the law seriously. So, you know, I I think it is a terrible message that we're seeing from the highest offices in our country. And again, it just fosters this idea that it's okay to do corrupt things, that everyone's corrupt, and and that the wealthy and the well-connected are all getting better access. And honestly, it's both a bad appearance, but also uh they're not wrong in thinking that.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

And what's so scary is that, as you know, you and I um routinely investigate companies. Uh, we routinely pursue civil actions, sometimes even criminal actions, against, you know, corporate entities. And in Michigan, I can buy or sell as much of that uh particular stock as I want. And there's nothing to prevent me from doing it. Now I don't. I don't because I don't ever want people to think you made this decision to pursue this action or not pursue an action based on your own self-enrichment. But the fact that we don't even have laws that would stop you from doing that, and of course, we know federally that's the case as well. Many people become rich going to Congress. And I I would dare say some of them go to Congress to get rich. Um, but we we just don't have the laws in place to prevent that. And I think other people, other other countries look at us like we're crazy. Um, because they can't believe that that that would ever be permissible in somebody who has uh that kind of control over all aspects of commerce, really. It's really unfortunate, and I think it's getting worse and worse. But I I guess what I have to hope, because the Trump administration has been so extreme, and again, like there's no apologies there. Literally, you know, monetizing the White House, uh, routinely violating the Hatch Act, like literally selling products, uh using the White House to do so. Um, you know, I hope that there will be a pushback at some point that we can say, all right, we've had a president who has taken advantage of every single loophole there is, and moreover, has appointed somebody to uh be attorney general of the United States and people in the Department of Justice that will never prosecute him for um for any of these offenses. And of course, the Supreme Court that has granted him immunity from prosecution while he's in office. Um, and I my hope is that the American public will just be fed up with it and say, we don't want this at the state level, we don't want it at the federal level, and we are going to pass, you know, a package of clear and cohesive laws that ensure that people can know that that kind of quid pro quo system um just cannot exist any longer.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Well, I I completely agree. Like I'm an optimist. Um, I think we're in a dark period right now, but what you just said is the historical experience of the United States of America. We've gone through dark periods and emerged from them with a country that looks very different. The whole concept of antitrust came because people were sick and tired of companies being too big and powerful in this country and screwing working class Americans. That's why we created laws that said you can't have monopolies. Um and I think there's pretty bipartisan agreement. I mean, the president might be one of the few outliers who doesn't agree in this right now, but his vice president agrees with us. It's one of the few areas where I do agree with JD Vance. Um, and I think we're in one of those moments. And I don't think we should be afraid of dreaming kind of big, you know, like why can't we be talking about a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United? I that is broad fraud popularity.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Absolutely. I mean, that's the kind of thing that I I believe absolutely. Um, if you need what, three-fourths of um the uh the states to uh approve of that, uh, and obviously two-thirds of each chamber of commerce, uh of Congress. Yeah, absolutely. Everybody would go for that. If if we could get us to move forward, 100% people would be interested in that.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

It's never gonna happen unless we talk about look, you're in a swing state. I'm not, though our election was closer last year than people expected. I bet if you went to Michiganders and said, do you want to not get be bombarded with uh endless ads that, you know, on end every every four years or election, you probably get some support to end Citizens United. Um, I I this isn't a Democratic or Republican issue. I think people are fed up with money and politics. And we're not gonna get out of this mess unless, like we like you said, unless we respond to a moment of crisis and say, you know what, we actually want to fix this. Now, I'm not Pollyannish. I know this stuff is hard. Um, but you know, it's not like giving women the right to vote happened so easily either. People campaigned for years to build momentum for the 19th Amendment. Like, let's do it, let's talk about it, let's push for it. Let's show that we can pass state laws. Um, you know, I would love here to see, and I've talked about this publicly, New Jersey's behind the curve on democratic reforms. We didn't have early voting, we didn't have permanent absentee mail voting until the last five years. We just still don't have same-day voter registration. Let's do robust public financing for local office. Let's encourage people to uh to run. Even this Supreme Court allows public public matching. I think it matters a lot more for local office where they're not getting, you know, tens of millions of dollars into a pack for a state assembly race in New Jersey or something like that let's do that. Let's try to get more people involved. Let's try and get more people engaged. Let's democratize the process.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

What I find unfortunately to be true is that when people are candidates for office, they can say all kinds of things. But it's a different story once they get into office. So, for instance, I will say this for our state legislature. You know, there were a lot of promises that were made in terms of what people would do if they ever, you know, held the gavel uh in a particular committee, um, or were ever in a position where they could pass laws that would enable the public to have more faith in our system because there's more transparency and less opportunity for corrupt acts. But what I've seen is once people get into those positions, they don't want to do that anymore because they're like, wow, now I'm benefiting from this system. And now that I am utilizing all of these different things, whether it be, you know, the revolving door involving uh elected officials to becoming lobbyists, I don't know how New Jersey is. In Michigan, we don't have a ban on that. People routinely go directly from the legislature where they're voting on particular items for uh a particular that that benefit a particular stakeholder group. And then the next day, they're working for them, you know? And um we've tried and tried to implement just even just a one-year ban and the legislature won't pass it. But we have virtually no laws in place. We finally um just uh in the last couple of years had even a financial disclosure form that um, you know, our um legislature and um our executive office holders had to fill out. But I mean, it's really lame. I mean, it's not even the, you know, it was passed by the voters as a ballot initiative, but that it was left to be implemented by the legislature. So they weakened it as much as possible. So now we have another ballot proposal uh that's gonna be likely uh appearing in the 2026 November ballot that will say that, you know, if you are a regulated monopoly in our state, such as our utilities, um, that you cannot make political contributions. But again, it's not gonna happen through the legislature. It's gonna happen through ballot proposals and citizen-led initiatives. Uh, and I think we need to see more of that. It's just they're really expensive.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Yeah, and we have a very uh uh restricted process for um uh initiatives in New Jersey. And I think that should change, frankly.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Yeah, and it's hard to change when when people get into office, they decide that they want to benefit from a system that is corrupt.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Yeah, look, uh people get rich off being in public office, and I think that's wrong. I don't think that's what we're supposed to do. I think we're supposed to serve the public. Uh, if you want to get rich, I think there's plenty of ways that you can try to do that in the private sector, start a business, you know, as a lawyer, go work at a law firm. They pay pretty well and pay better than we do. Uh our jobs are to serve the public, and I think it's the best place to work. I think it's the it's what inspires me every day. Uh here, we the rules are frustrating. We have pretty strong ethics rules for state officers, which I support. I have a I do a robust financial disclosure every year, which I'm happy to do. You can usually go on and see how much debt I have. Um, so you know, that's uh when I was in the governor's office, I used to joke that it was like the most embarrassing moment uh every year when I had to put it out. Um I'm sure my wife loves that. But you know, I do it and we you can see everything we have. So it's it's all out there. Uh the legislature doesn't have to do that. And, you know, they they don't they disclose hardly anything. They are allowed to have, you know, outside employment. I'm not. Um any sort of outside activity I have to do, even if it's like doing something with a nonprofit, um, we have to fill out a form that's publicly available. I think that's good. I welcome that. So, you know, um it it I take that really seriously, and I think everybody should, uh, if you're here for the right reasons. Um, but I think you you fight where you can, and we need to create some momentum. I think there's a lot we can do, uh, but I think so often, you know, we're too afraid of talking about how we change the system uh that we get, you know, paralysis by analysis. Like we just got to start pushing for this. The public wants it. Let's not be bashful. Yeah, we should ban stock trading. Yes, we should have more robust exclosures. I'm not afraid to say that. I know you're not. We need more people willing to do it. I think those of us who have the bully pulpit that we do have, um, and frankly, who have credibility on these issues, um, and you know, you and I both have the scars to prove it that this ain't easy. And I think we need more people to say that and just to shine a light on it because as this pendulum swings back, I do think there's gonna be momentum for uh meaningful reforms into how our government functions.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Yeah, and I I do think this time period is gonna lead to one where people are going to say, you know what?

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

I don't think I want uh a president that's slinging crypto or you know, selling cell phones or sneakers or what have you uh as part of his regular um, I mean, can we just say this crypto, this crypto thing uh that he's doing, these coins have no value other than the value that they're getting propped up by payments from foreign nations and other billionaires and large corporations that want things from the president. I mean, come on. It's like I keep saying it's cartoonish, it's but it's ridiculous.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

And there always seems to be some way that either he directly or his family is benefiting from any of his policies. Now, who doesn't benefit? The people of the United States of America. We don't benefit from that. Um, so it's a self-enrichment plan. And um, I I think people uh, for the most part, get it. And I think they're sick of it, and I don't think they're gonna want to see this again in a lifetime.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

I mean, look, you're seeing widespread backlash. I mean, laws of gravity still work. Uh, and you know, I I do believe that this administration and has threatened democracy in a lot of real ways, but we just saw last month a pretty widespread rejection of where the country is right now. And and I do think the laws of gravity are working.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Agreed. Well, let's hope that we continue to see some progress uh in this uh sphere. And um, you know, thank you for all the great work that you've done in New Jersey on this issue and to highlight the importance of having prosecutors, of having attorneys general uh who prioritize um going after public corruption whenever and wherever they see it.

New Jersey Attorney General Matt Platkin:

Well, um Dame, let me thank you because um, you know, when you do this work and you've done a lot of it for longer than I have, um, you know, you you take you take some lumps, you get some scars. And it it and having that support network of other AGs across the country like you, you know, who can say, you know, you're doing the right thing, um, it's meant a lot. And I think, you know, Michigan's been extraordinarily well served by having an attorney general who's unafraid, including unafraid of taking on um, you know, corruption within your own party. And that's been an example for me. So I really have to have to thank you.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel:

Well, that's all the time we have for this week's episode of Pan Suits and Lawsuits. And remember, our system functions best when we all work together and keep each other honest. So we'll be back soon with more information and uh an entertaining discussion about the latest in American law and litigation. Until then, be sure to follow our departments on social media and check out our websites for daily updates about the important work our departments are doing to protect your rights. Thanks for listening and see you next time.