Life & Loss Through the Lens of Yoga with Mandy Mona

Yoga therapist Mandy Mona speaks about family, faith, motherhood, body image, relationship strain, yoga therapy, pregnancy loss, and learning how to support yourself and others through difficult seasons of life.

Mandy shares how early losses in her family left her with questions about faith, God, and grief that she did not yet have the language to understand. She also reflects on growing up in a large, busy family, becoming a young mother, navigating a complicated relationship that later became her marriage, and learning how childhood experiences can follow people into adult relationships.

Yoga first entered Mandy’s life as a physical outlet, but over time, it became something much deeper. Through teacher training, work in treatment centres, and yoga therapy, she began to understand the connection between the body, emotions, breath, mental health, and lived experience.

Mandy also speaks about the loss of her son, Tyson, during pregnancy, after first learning she had been carrying twins. She shares how her family has continued to honour him, and what she has learned about supporting someone who is grieving in practical, grounded ways.

This is a gentle conversation about family, healing, faith, the body, and the many ways people learn to keep living alongside what they have carried.

Topics include:

• Growing up in a large, creative family with sports, siblings, and different personalities
• Questioning faith after early family losses and not having a clear language for grief
• Becoming a young mother while navigating relationship strain, family pressure, and uncertainty
• Body image, pregnancy, and the impact of comments that stay with us longer than people realise
• Discovering yoga first as a physical outlet, then as a deeper therapeutic practice
• Working in treatment centres and seeing people beyond addiction, diagnosis, or circumstance
• The difference between commercial yoga and yoga therapy as an integrative practice
• Pregnancy loss, stillbirth, family grief, and finding ways to honour Mandy’s son Tyson
• How to support someone who is grieving without asking them to explain everything they need

About:  Mandy Mona is a passionate, experienced yoga therapist dedicated to helping people reconnect with their bodies and trust their intuition through movement, breath and mindful awareness.

Connect at: IG, FB, TikTok, Website

Transcript

Regina Sayer 0:00

Hi everybody and welcome back. So this week's episode, it's taken me a little bit of time to get it out, and I've been taking my time editing it because there's a gentleness in this episode that I could feel while I was editing it. My guest Mandy Mona is an amazing young woman. Her story starts with what seems like a beautiful, idealistic childhood, but then you realize that there are elements of it that were never

Introduction

Regina Sayer 0:30

addressed, and those included the grief and lack of understanding that she felt around the loss of her grandmothers when she was young. Why did a god, whoever that may be, take them from her? She grappled with religion and the beliefs at this point, and she went on in her life and she discovered yoga, and we really get into what yoga in its true essence is and then how it is marketed to be something otherwise in a very gym type of setting that in which it's often taught. She has a very heart-touching story. She tells it with such genuine feeling and genuine emotion with a vulnerability that I believe comes through, and an understanding of what she's come to know through her practice of yoga. We touch upon how yoga can be for mental health, how yoga can be for grief, and the types of studies that she does that has taken her into these much deeper understandings of what yoga is and what that means in her life and what it also as an extension means in the lives of the people around her, particularly when she lost the twin babies that were in her womb. I'm not going to go into the detail of it. I hope that you will listen. It's towards the end, because everything that happened in her life almost prepped her for that moment. So it's a very interesting conversation. It's a very quiet conversation for me. It was a very touching conversation. And I hope that I did Mandy well in the editing of it. And I hope that you listeners, I also did you well in the way that it comes across so that you can have a deeper understanding of not only what Mandy went through, but perhaps what you're going through yourself. And I feel a bit serious as I'm doing this intro, because I feel a sort of solemn quietness after finishing editing this episode. I think I'll just leave you with that. I hope that you are safe and held wherever you are.

Regina Sayer 2:53

Welcome back to another episode of Wisdom Without the Guru. I'm your host, Regina. Today we have some more questions for you that are relative to today's episode with Mandy Mona, my guest. So, first of all, what do we do when life delivers a loss that feels too big to carry? How do we rebuild when the very structures we rely on relationships, workplaces, or even our own sense of identity begins to break down? And how do you choose integrity in professional spaces when ethical lines are blurred? And what about healing? What does it actually look like when you're balancing family recovery and grief all at once? And how do you hold space for your partner's recovery while navigating your own? And this, especially for those who have lost a child. How do you honor the memory of a child lost while still raising the ones who need you every day? These questions aren't distant considerations for Mandy Mona. They're lived realities that have shaped her journey from a sports-loving kid to navigating abuse, postpartum depression, toxic workplaces, and deep personal loss of her own flesh and blood. Along the way, she's transformed those experiences into a path of yoga therapy, integrative healing, and mentorship, building not just her own resilience, but offering tools and hope for others walking through grief and recovery. So welcome, Mandy, and your crickets. Okay, we're gonna tell you up front, listeners, that if you hear a shh sh in the background, I've tried my best to get it out in the in the editing process, but Mandy has like a backyard full of friendly creatures.

Mandy Mona 4:51

Yeah, I mean that's the best way I can put woodland creatures, all of nature is in my backyard. Oh my gosh. Yeah. All day, every day.

Regina Sayer 5:00

So these are crickets that we're hearing right now.

Mandy Mona 5:02

Yeah, yeah. Crickets and whatever else likes to chirp out there. They're out there. Everybody is there. Right outside my window.

Regina Sayer 5:10

And so this is during the day, and then at night you say it's like the whole chorus of every type of frog.

Mandy Mona 5:15

Chorus of frogs, yeah. All of the frogs. And then, you know, the occasional owl or fox.

Regina Sayer 5:22

Well, thank you so much for joining us. And you have a lot of interesting things that you do, and we'll get to them eventually. But um, you have also had a lot of things that have happened to you that I think there's a lot of people out there who can relate to, and the way that you've dealt with it and/or not dealt with it can also be something that you know people resonate with, and that can also help people in dealing with their own circumstances. So having said that,

A sports-filled childhood in a large creative family

Regina Sayer 5:50

let's just start with you as a kiddo, because you were like a sports freak.

Mandy Mona 5:56

Yes. Soccer and horseback riding, but primarily soccer, and it was soccer all year round.

Regina Sayer 6:02

And the oldest of five children, but with significant age gaps.

Mandy Mona 6:06

Yeah, yeah. My brothers, who are at the end of the train, very large age gap. I was in high school when they were born, and they're they just turned 18. And then my youngest sister, we have a 10-year gap. But my middle sister between me and my youngest sister, we're only three and a half years, four years apart. So that's not too, too bad. But we got the whole rainbow.

Regina Sayer 6:32

So talk a little bit about that dynamic because of that whole rainbow of age and also, you know, what was happening with your parents as well, dealing with all these kids that are so spread out.

Mandy Mona 6:43

I know. I don't know how my mom did it, to be quite honest. But it was always, I mean, it still is to this day. It's still very busy, hustle, bustle. Everyone's it's different hustle and bustle. It's school and work rather than a lot of extra, extracurricular activities. Myself and my sister under me, we were the sports girls. We were soccer, horseback riding, all of the sports, track, all that. We were the busy ones. And then, like my younger sister, she did cheerleading and dance and things like that. And my brothers weren't too excited about sports. They like kind of dabbled in it, but they're like, no, we're good. But they're musicians though. So it, you know, we're all a very creative family, but it's really heavy in my brothers. That my dad's a musician. So my brothers play the guitar and bass, and they're very like well musically rounded, where like my sister and I on the other side of the rainbow is very heavy in sports. But we're the ones who watch football with my dad. So it's very opposite kind of, but it's very, very fun. I think too, with having so many siblings, you get a lot of understanding just in life about how different people are, even your own siblings, personality-wise. So, and even to this day, learning to navigate these relationships, now that we're all older, you know, you kind of learn about different personalities and how people think differently and do differently and believe differently. So it's very um educational in that sense. And then I just watch my my mother try to navigate all of it, you know, and I really try to think about it as, and I see this a lot now of like, you know, everyone's doing this generational work, but just thinking like it's my mom's first time here on the planet, too, and she's trying to figure it out. It really gives you some perspective there. And she just tries her best. Like she was very much, you know, a girl mom for a really long time, and then these boys get dropped in. Like when they were born, we were like, okay, more girls. We're gonna have five girls. Oh no, two boys, and our just our world flipped upside down. And in my parents' house, we have the playroom and that, you know, watching the shift of the playroom from girl driven to boy-driven. And then now that there's grandkids in the mix, now we have like this really nice balance between the two. But it's really funny to like watch that evolution of this like symbolist type room and watching it change over the years. I really enjoy that. Like, I was thinking about that the other day of like this room has never changed purpose, just the insides of it has changed and fluctuated with the times and the kids and age groups and stuff like that. So it's always been a nice kind of ride for the most part.

Regina Sayer 9:45

And your two youngest brothers, they're twins or

Mandy Mona 9:48

they're twins, yeah.

Regina Sayer 9:50

So that was like a double whammy.

Mandy Mona 9:52

Double whammy, yeah. Yeah, I remember my mom when they found out this was twins. I remember seeing the video, because you know, video cameras were still a thing. And are you sure? I know my poor mother, she's now going to be double teamed by little boys, but she's handled it. It's been very fun. And again, it prepared me to have my son, and you know, I have nephews too. So I was like, okay, we needed this bit of education for what was to come down the pike.

Regina Sayer 10:23

Especially with such a big age difference as well.

Mandy Mona 10:26

Yeah, yeah. It that I think is nice because when my son was born, my brothers were still young. They were six or seven. So, like, they got to grow up being able to help take care of my son. They were very involved. When my son was born, I was living at home. So they were very much involved. My younger sister, but everyone was involved with me having my first kid. So it's very everyone's kind of learning from each other, and I really enjoy it. It's complicated, it's never easy because again, we're navigating very different people, different generations, yeah, and all of the things. But the fun that we have and the chaos that is involved is a lot of fun. I love it. We're very competitive, like games, family games can be a little dangerous because we're all so competitive. But at the same time, we're like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to do that or go do something and to be very involved. And we're involved in each other's like hobbies and things that we like to enjoy. So it's really nice to be able to have some underlying things in common, despite the incredibly large age gap that's between us.

Regina Sayer 11:36

With all these dynamics going on, how was your social life in school? I mean, how were you managing yourself in school? Because it sounds like you had like the ideal family at home.

Mandy Mona 11:47

Yeah, social life was pretty good. I was always out with my friends. And again, I think my parents learning to kind of still be in the stage of young kids and then navigating me growing up as a young adolescent and like what I was getting into and people I was gonna go hang out with. I can imagine that being a struggle or was a struggle for my parents because they're just like, oh my gosh, I have this daughter who's driving, and then I still have kids in diapers. The uh stress of that, I'm sure, but I I was always with like the girls I played soccer with. We were super close. So I was with them and I had gone to private school up until my sophomore year of high school, but I played soccer in the county leagues with all the public school girls. By the time I shifted over, I had all these friends and I was meeting other friends. I love people and I love meeting people, and I want to do all the things. So I was very involved in clubs and art and things like that. So I was doing all this extra. I was a busy girl amongst all the extra curriculars I could have I could do. And I would go out and hang out with my friends, and I had a very typical high school life. Friday nights going out with my friends and going to bonfires. And we live in a very rural South County, everything's tight-knit. So it was bonfires and going to people's farms and pickup trucks and tractors.

Regina Sayer 13:15

So this sounds so American. I'm sorry. I mean I'm sitting here listening to this from a from a where I live in Belgium thinking.

Mandy Mona 13:25

Yes. It is literally like if you drive by our the local high school, it's just like the pickup trucks are all lined up. It's very funny. But the pride of the farmers never dies. I tell you what, those guys are great. I loved hanging out with my friends. That was very, very important to me. And I I still am very close with my high school best friend. And we've been out of high school for what feels like eons. Being so tight and being so close, um, you know, driving distance and friends make other friends, and then the circle got real big. And yeah, so it was good. Good times. We still are very close. We're still very doing things. We're always out. Just some of us now have kids in tow. So getting away from the kids is tricky, but still very social, still trying to be active in each other's lives and things like that.

Regina Sayer 14:14

Would you looking back, say that there was anything that you felt was missing from your childhood?

Mandy Mona 14:20

I don't feel like there was anything missing. I don't think my world was too big, but I don't think it was too small either. It was kind of like right in the middle. So I had, you know, my family life and then I had my social life, and you know, I was dating and all that stuff. So it was very like it felt very even paced and trying to navigate and balance all of those things.

Catholic upbringing, faith, and early questions about loss

Regina Sayer 14:45

In terms of spirituality, how was your family?

Mandy Mona 14:49

Very much uh Roman Catholic. It was Sunday school up until 10th grade when you got confirmed. I hated it every bit. Um not only waking up early, but I wasn't an early bird at that time. But yeah, that's a really interesting question. So for me, there was a lot of resistance there because I was in a family where it's like, you need to go to church. Like you should go to church. You need, you know, believe in God, believe, you know, all of these things. And I remember from a very young age sitting in Sunday school with all of these kids who don't really necessarily want to be there, listening to these stories. And I go, I don't like it's not that I don't believe that the text is accurate, but some of the stories, there's just some questionable things in there. I don't really I never really understood how this big mighty God who reigns and controls could hate people for being different, like scorning people for being gay and things. And again, at that point in my life, that wasn't something that I was approaching. It wasn't in my everyday life. So I did not have the education to really make an educated guess, but I knew in my heart, and and and from hearing from my family too, oh, God loves everybody. And I'm like, but this text is saying opposite. So I was very confused for a really, really long time, as terms of like, I believed in God, but let's say probably four years ago, yeah, it was when my daughter was really young. I was doing some personal work in this book called The Artist's Way. And there was a really interesting chapter on your belief systems. And in that chapter, I said that my God could be different from somebody else's. I really, really like that and really, really resonated with that because I think that religion and your beliefs, your personal beliefs, should be personal to you because it's my belief system, you know? After that, I spent a lot of time reflecting on what my God looked like and what I felt like was the supporting factor in all of this. So faith becomes restored. I can read the Bible, but I can also go, well, my God doesn't believe in that. Still high and mighty, up, you know, same general context, my God's in heaven and yes, and Jesus and Mary. However, I could never scorn somebody for choosing a different lifestyle than what I choose to live. And again, that was really rocky because it was my dad goes to church every Sunday. My younger, my younger brothers, my one twin, he goes to church on Sundays, just like my dad. But I was like, I can't, I don't want to go to church. And then

Grief that was present but not understood

Mandy Mona 17:50

on top of that, in that jumble of time, when I was going to church, it was for funerals. And I go, this God is taking away the people that I love and need still. That was another one that were it kind of shook the foundation a little bit. And then I had to later in life, even you know, now with what I'm dealing with, learn how to grieve. No one in my family talked about grief. So I was just sad because my grandmother was gone. I lost both of my grandmothers. I lost my dad's mom when I was 12, 13, and then my mom's mom right before I had my son. And I go, what the heck is going on here? So then reading and getting that of what I want to believe in and my belief system can be what I want it to be. I go, okay. However, I'm like, you took my people, like I'm not okay with that, and I don't understand. But looking back and then doing this grief education that I've received in school, I learned how to grieve and learned how to kind of look at it from a different perspective. It was less medical because my I lost both my grandmothers to specific things, very medical things. I had to take that out of it. And that was really hard when I didn't know how.

Regina Sayer 19:21

And I guess the church doesn't exactly help you.

Mandy Mona 19:25

Yeah, you know, they get called home and you know, and I go, No, her home is with me. Thanks. I'll take her back, you know. So that was very confusing for me as a young child, and then not having the reference of what grief even was, or what it could be, or the potentials, or what, you know, this big ball of emotion could untangle as. And again, I think what makes all of this life journey, it's not supposed to be smooth, all the cliche things, but it is really taking the time to really figure it out and to keep revisiting. I don't think that anything is supposed to be checked off the list. So I had taken, you know, all this grief work in school to treat people with grief, and I really never dealt with it myself. So I mean, I was grieving. It triggered grief in my body, and then it kind of started that of okay, here's my belief system. This is what I'm going through. And again, it kind of brought it all back up of like, why would my belief person do this to me? Things like that.

Regina Sayer 20:42

So there is kind of like a hole in your childhood in that sense.

Mandy Mona 20:47

Yeah, emo the emotional understanding of these very big concepts. Now, I don't know that I could say that at a young age I would have been available to learn some of these things. But I will say, in what we're dealing with now and the grief that we're experiencing now at home with my young children, I'm trying to be very creative about it and really trying to make it this big, ginormous thing fit into a smaller compartment and various compartments rather than one big box and navigating that. And I even go, well, if I was to teach this to myself, if I look at little me, young me, who's grieving her grandmother, would I have been available to receive that information? Probably not. So I'm, you know, learning to grieve side by side and all of these people in the picture now grieving side by side. It's been a journey. It really, really has.

Regina Sayer 21:52

Let's come back to that because that comes in later. And because right now there's no reference point for anyone listening to understand why you keep referring. Back to grief.

Mandy Mona 22:01

Yeah.

Regina Sayer 22:01

For the moment, let's carry on with your story so that we can then come to this understanding about because there's more than one grief that happened to you.

Mandy Mona 22:08

Yeah.

Photography, motherhood, and changing direction

Regina Sayer 22:09

So let's just go back to the teenage you who then decided to go and study photography and photojournalism. Now, why that? Was this the artist side of you coming through?

Mandy Mona 22:21

That was definitely the artist side of me. We have our art runs in our family. That was like kind of the medium that arrived for me. And again, it was a very people-based art form. Wanted to photograph people. And then at the same time, the photojournalism part was hey, here's the sport, here's the action. I was ready to pack my bags, get a good underwater camera, and throw myself into the ocean with the big waves. When I was a kid and we would go to the beach, that was my favorite thing to do. I would get a waterproof disposable camera. I would go and I would let the waves just suck me in, crash me in, pull me out all day. And I'm out there with this camera taking pictures of waves and the curls of waves. And I would just wash up and then I would get up, go back out and do it. And I would over and over and over again. I loved the ocean. So I was like, hey, here's this combo of two things that I really, really love. I was like, this is gonna be awesome. Let's do it. And then, you know, life happened and I went to school and I was doing all these things. And then I was like, I think this is just a hobby. It's something that I really love, but I think this is just a hobby for me. It kind of all paused for me before I had my son. I stopped going to school. I dropped out of school, didn't sign back up.

Regina Sayer 23:55

Just because you thought it was a hobby, you stopped?

Mandy Mona 23:58

Yeah, it was like I really, really loved it. But then I was like, how am I gonna have this big career, this world-traveling career? And then I'm gonna have a child that needs me. And again, at the time, I was a child myself. I was 23. I was so young, you know, learning all these different things. Life was happening. And I'm like, I think this is just something that I really love to do, and it brings me joy, but it's not gonna be suitable for this life journey that I'm about to embark on because that was the most important thing at that time was okay, I'm gonna be a mom and I need to figure out that because that's different than what I've been doing. You know, I'm gonna be responsible for a human being. So I was like, okay, you know what? I'm gonna let this be the thing that brings me joy. And I still I still kept up with it. I didn't like not pick my camera back up, but I was taking pictures of different things, and it was like, yeah, this is like the ebb and flow of what the art process even is to begin with. Everyone changes, art changes with you, I think, and with the eye, the eye of the beholder, if you will. Yeah, I was like, okay, this is this is not it for me for a career.

Relationship strain, addiction patterns, and becoming parents

Regina Sayer 25:15

But the actual reason that you'd left university is because you were in an abusive relationship.

Mandy Mona 25:20

I wasn't in an abusive relationship. We were navigating two different lifestyles. I wouldn't say that he abused me. That's a heavy word. He didn't put his hands on me, didn't verbally abuse me. We were literally living two very different lifestyles. He was coming from, which now we can say it is a very traumatic childhood. That was a young man who has extreme trauma, childhood trauma. And it was showing up in his young adolescent life. And to me, it was okay, this person has got a lot going on, but we had a lot of equal playing ground. We were both, at the time, I can say, looking for validation that we never received in our childhood. He was going about it a different way than I was. Because in my home, it was, you know, we bottle things up, we don't talk about it, and then eventually it explodes. In his house, it was you ran away and you didn't come home for many days, and nobody cared to look for you. So the meeting of these two traumas was like the perfect storm, if you will. So navigating drug use, navigating unhealthy lifestyles, you know, and then on my side, communication wasn't a good thing on me. And then I'm carrying this child, my life changes immediately because I'm having the physical experience. He was not ready.

Regina Sayer 26:58

So this is his child?

Mandy Mona 27:01

Yes.

Regina Sayer 27:01

Okay. I didn't catch that before. Okay.

Mandy Mona 27:04

Yeah. This is my now husband. We've been together for 13 years, and we've literally seen the gates of hell and back. And we're still working on it. You know what I mean? It's like not having the tools as a child and how that has shown up in our adult lives, and now we're trying to really figure it out and learn to grow and to be better humans for ourselves so that we can show up for our children was a lot. And it was things that I had never dealt with. Because I remember growing up, my mom telling me about her family, and they were heavy smokers and every, you know, alcohol and all this stuff. So that was my kind of clouded view of what drug use was or alcohol use was. Because growing up, my parents didn't drink, like it was very like secretive, and you know, no one really talked about it. And then my husband's family, that was their coping skill. It was everywhere. Drugs and alcohol were everywhere. It was understanding that that's what that was his chaos. And his coping skill was to not only drink because his family was doing it, but I'm gonna drink in excess because of the feelings that I'm having and I don't know what to do with it. It's like the undercover feelings that haven't even come up to the surface yet.

Regina Sayer 28:29

And have the two of you, at some point, even back then, when you realized that there was this distance between you, tried to seek therapy to speak through it?

Mandy Mona 28:38

Therapy wasn't anyone anything anyone talked about. I was navigating this by myself. My parents were like, this guy is trouble, he's awful, it wanted nothing to do with him, not wanted nothing to do with our relationship. So I was navigating this by myself for a very, very long time, trying to figure out how I could be of help to him. And that is kind of where I started learning like where some of these behaviors were coming from, and trying to be there to support him because really there was no family support. Everyone was so come and go, and it was there was no consistency in his life. And then I go, hey, let me try to figure out how to help you because I have consistency on my side. And it was a lot of back and forth, and a lot of this is all really crazy and this is overwhelming. What are we doing? And I'm just like, you know, and we had spent some time apart after our son was born, and it was one of those, like, I was trying to navigate being a mom on top of heartbreak, distrust, and then not truly understanding the severity of what it was like to be with someone who has an addictive personality. And I had to learn about that. You know, I had my friends to lean on at that time. So I wasn't high and dry. I had all of my best friends who were there to support me and showed up for me and spent late nights with me. But it was very much like something, I don't know what I could label it as at this point, but something was I can't just let this guy go. I loved him. I love him, but it was more than that. It was there is something in there that I like that thread. I can feel the thread between him and I. And I was like, I can't just go, okay, you suck because you have, you know, you have no coping skills, which is what it is now. Like right now, looking back, we can go, he was ill-equipped, no therapy, no support. You know what I mean? So to look back and think I was gonna just go, oh, you suck, get away from me. I'm gonna do this by myself, rather than now going a human being with no skills, I mean, it would be like that for anybody. Why are we casting judgment on someone who has lived differently than I have?

Regina Sayer 31:08

And a question for you when you found out that you were pregnant and you were in this type of relationship that was not very stable, how did you react when you found out you were pregnant?

Mandy Mona 31:19

I was scared, but I was more scared of my parents than anything else because I knew it was going to be chaotic for them. And I was like, this was something that I chose to do. And I was like, I have to stand by myself right now and go, I'm I'm having a baby. That was really hard. That pregnancy was very, very hard because my parents were very concerned with what other people were gonna think. And I couldn't be pregnant in my own home. I had to hide it from my brothers. Okay. That was really, really hard. I had to hide it from a lot of people, and um, that linked with a lot of the body shaming as a child to that really stuck with me. I think sometimes still does stick with me from time to time, but sometimes it'll rear its ugly head.

Regina Sayer 32:10

What body shaming is a child? You didn't talk about that before.

Mandy Mona 32:14

I heard a lot of like when like going shopping, oh, that looks flattering on you. That's good for your body type or your body shape. And I go, what's my body type? I thought it was just my body. So I picked that up as a child and absolutely ran with it. And it was a lot of, oh, hey, big girl. Like that was a joke growing up. And I held on to that forever. I have body dysmorphia for sure. Growing up hearing that, and it's still as a joke today. It's like, hey, big girl, hey, you know, big fat girl or whatever. Like my dad says that to us when we're pregnant. I don't like that. Like, that doesn't help me at all. To some people, yeah, that is a joke. You can laugh about it. But to some of us, it's very detrimental. So then going and having to hide my body because I made the choice to have a baby, that was really, really, really hard. Then on top of the struggling of my parents not liking him.

Regina Sayer 33:14

And your sisters?

Mandy Mona 33:16

My sisters were young. My middle sister, the one under me, she's always been a very, she's been a little bit more objective, where she can arrive at her thinking by herself. But my younger, everyone younger was like whatever my parents felt is what they felt. I remember my sister coming to me and she's like, you know, he sucks. I don't like him, whatever. But she was very supportive of me, you know, for me, not for the relationship, but wanting to know that I wasn't alone. And she's been like that my whole life. Everything that I've ever dealt with, she's always been like that little piece of grounding for me. And then it was when he started to get his life together and he was making some changes and he was, you know, bettering for himself so that he could be a better dad. My sister was the first to see it. Kind of like, you know, the proofs in the pudding. I want to make sure that this guy's gonna show up and do what he needs to be doing. And he started doing that, and their relationship was kind of the first to rekindle. And then it was, you know, whatever it was to my parents of however long it needed to take. It was a lot of holding grudges for a really long time. And that was really hard to navigate when him and I are trying, we're trying to build and figure out what our family life was going to look like. That was really hard to go, like the back and forth of like, okay, stress. I'm trying to figure this out, stress. We're doing good things, stress. It was a lot of back and forth for a really, really long time. In the meantime, I'm going to therapy, but it wasn't something I stuck with for a really long time.

Regina Sayer 34:56

So now you've decided to go to therapy.

Mandy Mona 34:58

So somewhere along the line, you've said the first time I went to therapy was probably 2017. And it was a short stint. It was just a c it was probably about a year I was in therapy, and it was very much trying to navigate whatever that stress was coming from my parents, and then this relationship that I'm trying to work on with my son and his father. And then it stopped going. I think it was too much for me at the time emotionally, to where it was just I wasn't ready to do the work, I think, on my end.

Regina Sayer 35:31

How were you surviving on your own? I mean, how were you managing your own mental health and your own well-being during all of this? Because it sounds like you're just giving out and giving out and trying to support your

Mandy Mona 35:43

everyone else.

Regina Sayer 35:44

Yeah, exactly.

Mandy Mona 35:45

There was not a lot. It was fly-by-night hobbies and things that didn't stick for a long time. I remember being so tired and I was working. I was in a very toxic corporate job where it was sucking the life out of me, and I was being scrutinized on that side as well of having to show up and be a certain person every day. A lot of it was I was doing very physical practices. My yoga practice was I'm gonna sweat it out. I'm gonna go back up my body.

Regina Sayer 36:20

You suddenly talk about yoga. Where did you discover yoga? Because I got a note here that you said when you were 16 you started doing yoga.

Mandy Mona 36:27

Yeah, I was doing it, but it was like here and there. That's what it was still at this point. It was the physical practice when I needed it.

Regina Sayer 36:36

And did you see that as a tool for healing?

Mandy Mona 36:38

I wouldn't call it a healing tool. I think what it was is the same what sports was when I was a child.

Regina Sayer 36:45

Okay, an outlet kind of.

Mandy Mona 36:46

An outlet, exactly. So it was everything I was doing was very extreme because everything emotionally I felt so extreme in my body, which I could say that now. I don't, I couldn't have given you those words back then. But everything was so heightened and extreme that I had to do extreme things. I was longboarding and I was really into skateboarding, and I would go and I would bomb these big old hills because the adrenaline was like, okay, I feel better now. Like I've done all these big crazy things. I'm good to go. Um, very risky behaviors with my body in the term of being very physical and being very active in that way. And it was do it, and it was quick. Okay, I feel a little bit better. I would go back, my tank would fill back up, and then I'm going out again. Go to the gym with my cousin would take me to the gym from time to time, or I was doing a yoga practice, or being active, kind of like, okay, I would feel it, move it out, and then it would come back really quick. So I wouldn't say it was a like a thorough mental health thing. It was something to get me by. And then 2018 rolls around, and that's when yoga comes into the big picture.

Regina Sayer 38:06

Why did that suddenly happen? What was the pivot point that made you step into that?

Mandy Mona 38:11

It was one of those things, I will call it divine timing. I was on Facebook and I was flipping around. An ad popped up for a teacher training for yoga. I remember looking at it and going, hmm, that's interesting. And then I had saved it so I could go back and look at it again. And it just kind of was in the back of my mind. And it was like, that was really interesting. I wonder what that's about. I looked back into it and I, oh, there's an informational session. I should go to this informational session. And I show up to the studio, I talk to the trainer, and she goes through like the curriculum and what it is and what to expect. And I was like, this is really cool. Something I was already familiar with. So the link was already there, but I would get to teach it. I was like, neat, okay. So I'm like, okay, I think I'm gonna do this. After the meeting, I went to talk to my parents and I was like, I really think I need to do this. I really, really, really want to do this. And they're like, okay, we'll help, we'll pay for it. We'll let's get you signed up. Got the books that I needed, and I showed up on that first day, and I was like, all right, this is great. I was building confidence in the process. Then maybe not midway through, but a good couple months in, I hit this really crazy plateau of where my body has come to a point that it was be now being challenged. And what I didn't realize at the time is underneath this layer of physical challenge, my emotions were sitting right underneath of it. I was at this one particular training day, we were doing standing postures, balancing postures, and it was a lot. And we always started with a practice before we kind of got into like learning the learning piece. And I remember hitting my mat and crying my eyes out. I was like, what is this? Why am I feeling like this? But it was like my body and my emotions broke through where I was like, oh my gosh, this is what this is all about. It was not just my physical body because I was learning the philosophy and things like that. It was turn, my brain was turning. I was like, listen to this perspective. I was just relating to everything. And it was just at that moment, everything just crashed together. And then that was that was it. I just was upwards and out. My confidence was up. I was like, I feel so smart, I feel so strong in my body. I don't feel so full of heaviness anymore. I was like, it there was more of a flow about it rather than it stacking and building. After that, I was so sunken into this philosophy and this way of life and these teachings, and being able to now understand the connection of my body. I needed to belong somewhere, and I found it myself, you know, and then I graduated, and that was the first time in my entire life that some sort of education I had completed and I did it on my terms. Something that I truly loved, and I loved the community behind it and all the people that I was meeting. Everyone was thinking like me, and everyone was trying to figure it out. And then the community started to gather, and I graduated, and then I started teaching at the studio that I had graduated from. So I was meeting all these other people, and I was like, oh my gosh, there's people like me. I was like, everyone's just in here trying to figure it out, and they're using this philosophy and these breathe and these meditations as a way to figure it out.

Regina Sayer 42:22

I have a question for you.

Mandy Mona 42:24

Yes.

Regina Sayer 42:24

Because

Pregnancy, body shame, and family pressure

Regina Sayer 42:25

you talk about body having body dysmorphia, and you know, if you look at a lot of places that advertise yoga, the people who are doing yoga are stick thin.

Mandy Mona 42:36

Yep. Yep.

Regina Sayer 42:38

It makes you think that there's nobody who is of any other size doing yoga at all. So did that ever cross your mind or come into it, or did you ever have this realization?

Mandy Mona 42:51

No that was not in the forefront for me. I never really focused on that until I was in on this movement of yoga and yoga therapy. And then I was like, this is not the right representation of what this amazing practice has to offer. And then it kind of became a running joke. And I started using that as a trampoline, if you will, of like getting people's attention of like, hey, look at me. I'm not that, what that ad has to offer. And then, kind of two, the timing of all of this is impeccable because now back then, this was the start of women and body issues were starting to be talked about. And I go, oh my God, it's coming out of the shadows. So you, you know, I will always think about the um supermodel Ashley Graham. She's a thick girl, dark hair, beautiful. Her career was starting at that time. And her platform was this is my body, and I don't need to be Victoria's Secret skinny to be beautiful. And I was like, Yes, she had dark hair. Like me, brown eyes. I was like, here it is. We're having the conversation. And it was a point in my brain going, do I want to sit back and just kind of be a part of what yoga is in the United States? Or do I want to be part of the game changers? And I said, I want to do that. I want to tell people and show people that despite where you came from, what you look like, what you believe in, yoga, the umbrella of yoga, you can belong there. You don't need to be the commercialized of anything.

Regina Sayer 44:37

Yeah, it's really good for you to say that. And I hope that listeners hear that because I think that a lot of people, when they think of yoga, they think of these people in, you know, these perfectly fitting flowing robes or whatever, you know, special yoga clothing that makes you look so serene and so holy and spiritual. It's not about that at all.

Mandy Mona 45:03

No-one's really doing yoga on a mountaintop. Like that's not and like the fighting of the commercialism of yoga in the United States is going to be a battle for the lifetime.

Regina Sayer 45:13

Well, it's not just in the United States. I think it's in other countries.

Mandy Mona 45:16

But I mean, it's very evident over when you start getting into the gym system, you're working in the gyms and then you're working in studios. It is very that's what it is. And to be not that and still work in that, you're working against a very big system. If I wouldn't have had that moment, I don't think that I would have been part of the fight. I think I would have just ridden it out. But it was the light switch moment to where I'm going to use what could be considered my flaws. I'm going to use it as a superpower because I know I'm not by myself. I know that I'm not alone. And then even, you know, we can look at women now and how that conversation has changed so much. And we have people like Alona Meyer or Mayer, I don't know how to say your last name, but she's the women's rugby star. And she's this big, strong woman. And that is her thing. You can be strong and beautiful. Your body can look any way. And you are, and it's like, okay, I'm a part of this conversation. The spokeswomen have changed, but I'm still a part of this conversation. But if the light switch wouldn't have gone off, I would not be. I wouldn't be doing podcasts talking to people. But it took a lot, and it still is this big shuffle of trying to figure it out.

Regina Sayer 46:41

And so you had these realizations that this was you. This was like coming home for you.

Mandy Mona 46:48

Yeah.

Regina Sayer 46:48

Because you were still working in your corporate job, weren't you? And then you were teaching teaching at night and on the weekends, I imagine. You lost a corporate job because of COVID.

Mandy Mona 46:58

Correct?

Regina Sayer 46:59

And then you were pregnant also with your daughter.

Mandy Mona 47:02

Correct.

Pregnancy, COVID, and yoga becoming a lifestyle

Mandy Mona 47:03

Pandemic hit, lost my corporate job, then lost my studio teaching job, had my daughter, and it was like, okay, what are we gonna do? And people talk about, I'm gonna teach yoga for a living, right? It's like I'm gonna do what I love, you know. And I had that instance in my head, but for me it was, yes, I want to do this, but what do I want it to look like?

Regina Sayer 47:27

And I'm just curious, when you were pregnant, were you doing yoga to help your pregnancy?

Mandy Mona 47:34

Yeah, I was. I was miserably sick, so it wasn't this like, I'm waking up and I'm moving my body. There are some days where I was waking up and laying on the floor.

Regina Sayer 47:45

You're moving your body to the toilet.

Mandy Mona 47:47

Yeah, I was like, that's it for me. But I did a lot like for my daughter in that pregnancy, it was a lot of meditation and breath work. More was my practice just to keep my food down, but to keep myself, you know, calm and to be apart and to be present in the pregnancy. I did a little bit of movement. I would still go teach. I was just very gentle about what I was teaching, very mindful in that. And my students knew. So I was like, what my body is doing doesn't mean that's what your body needs to do. I had my regulars, so they were, you know, they knew. And if I had to stop and I was more talking than, you know, moving my body, they got it. So it was a very good thing. But, you know, then being home and not working and teaching, it was like, okay, let me use my practices, let me sit and breathe, let me be present and you know, really nourishing my body and the teachings of the Yoga Sutras. It talks about all these other ways to take care of yourself. So I was doing a lot of staying hydrated and, you know, what am I putting into myself that I can get out of it? That's kind of when I started looking at Ayurveda, which is the sister science to yoga. And I was kind of dabbling in like, okay, what can this practice do for me? So I, you know, lemon water and other like different things, aromatherapy, things like that. So my practice really became what yoga is. It was beyond the movement pieces. That's like when my practice started to shift.

Regina Sayer 49:23

It's more of a lifestyle.

Mandy Mona 49:25

Yeah, right. I started really adapting the lifestyle and I had the time to do it. My son was doing virtual school, virtual kindergarten at the time. So it was like, you know, what can we do together? We're home to, you know, live this lifestyle. And it ended up working out

Working in treatment centres and seeing the person beyond the diagnosis

Mandy Mona 49:45

really nicely. And I was at the right place at the right time. I had my daughter, I was taking care of myself. And then I was like, okay, I'm ready to go out there and do what I love. I'm going to find that. Again, the divine timing of it all is when I found my job post-pandemic.

Regina Sayer 50:06

Is this the treatment center?

Mandy Mona 50:08

This was the first treatment center. Yep. And I mean baptism by fire. I'm like, they're looking for a yoga instructor.

Regina Sayer 50:18

Okay, when you say treatment center, explain what a treatment center is.

Mandy Mona 50:22

So this particular treatment center was for alcohol addiction and a little bit of mental health. So it wasn't as heavy as a focus. It was just very much almost more of like a rehabilitation from the addiction. So getting back on track, going to therapy kind of thing. And it was a 30-day program and it was more hospital-based. So it was very much like that kind of hospital-like atmosphere, very clean, very organized. And that was the focus of treating somebody. So we're treating the ailment here. And they were looking for a yoga instructor. I was like, okay, there's my way in. And then it turns out to be they really needed way more than that. But I was happy to be there. I was sharing an office with the music therapist, and I got to know her, and the work that she did was so beautiful. But we were kind of on this island alone, separated, because we were the modalities. And it was kind of like, here, put this in your calendar. This is what you're doing that day. And I said, well, if that's what it's going to be, and there really was no curriculum. It was, well, why don't we figure out how we can work together to where what we're offering kind of bounces off of each other. And we're playing around with all this stuff and these projects. And we would come up with these great ideas and we would take it to management. You know, we're trying to get into these management meetings. Please let us in. We really need to be a part of the treatment team. And it was pushed aside. It was whatever, like, yeah, you teach yoga, you're doing music. I'm like, this is way bigger. And in this room, you know, these big guys didn't see what was happening behind these closed doors of really working with the person, not working with the condition. That's when I started getting into the sound healing, and I got my sound healing certificate not long after that, just learning to work with the humans. However, management, it was really hard to work with. And I was like, I don't think that this is a good environment for me. And that's when I found the next treatment center that I ended up. So I left the first one, went to the second one, and I was, you know, meeting with the person who ran the program, more on the mental health side, addiction was there. So it was co-treating. It wasn't so sterile of an environment. It was very much like, okay, we're working with human beings, and this is where we'd like to build you in. There was a yoga therapist already there when I had started. A music therapist was there. So they're building. And I was like, okay, I like to be a part of the building of things. I love to watch things grow. And I was like, okay, I would love to work here. I would love to be a part of this. So I switched over.

Regina Sayer 53:19

So it's more treating the source and not the symptom.

Mandy Mona 53:23

Exactly. Now that the mental health is higher in the picture, it was very much about the human being and what they were dealing with. So they would see a therapist. There was step work for the 12 steps, and there was mental health curriculum. So some foundations were there, some good structure was there. I was included in meetings. So very much a great interchange of what was happening and collaborations and a little bit more freedom of like doing these special groups, working with these special populations, because you would get this, and you still do, is the ebb and flow of certain circumstances. So we would get a wave of people coming out of prison, or we would get a wave of people sexual assaults or a wave of really heavy mental health. And so really being able to kind of fall into these categories and work with that what they were doing. There's the flexibility of the curriculum. The first yoga therapist, she leaves and then ends up being me and the music therapist. Then they hire another yoga instructor. So we're kind of working together, figuring that out. And then another bringing in a yoga therapist. It had been some time. I'm like, oh, this is kind of my territory. What are you who's coming in here? You know, I was in the ins and outs with everybody. And I said, okay, we're gonna just see see where this goes because there's a lot of yoga people here now.

Regina Sayer 54:55

Yeah. So wait a minute, back up. You just said they're bringing in another yoga therapist. So where had you been exposed to yoga therapy? Because before we talked about Ayurveda, but not yoga therapy.

Mandy Mona 55:05

Well, I didn't really know what yoga therapy was at this time.

Regina Sayer 55:10

Okay. And also I have another question because were you concerned teaching yoga to people who were in such a, for lack of a better way of saying it, mentally unstable place? I mean, because emotionally unstable. No, because listen to the question first, because when you think back about your own yoga practice, when you were in the middle of that yoga practice and you suddenly started crying because what was underneath started rushing up. Did you ever think that, oh, that could happen to when I'm teaching, doing yoga for these people who are also going through this therapy and we're also releasing all this stuff. So what do I do if it comes up during a session?

Mandy Mona 55:47

Yeah, I was not afraid of that because my approach to anyone and everyone is that we're human beings having an experience and everyone is deserving of that experience, that aha flip of the switch. And in any yoga teacher setting, you are holding a container, the safe space. And I had never had that safe space emotionally for myself. So part of my ethics as a teacher was I'm going to go in this and offer to others what I never had, because a lot of people never had it. So I was very prepared for that.

Regina Sayer 56:30

Because when you say all yoga teachers hold safe space, that's not, yeah, that's not entirely true. Because sometimes you go into yoga classes where they're so big that they don't even see if somebody's hurting themselves doing an exercise.

Mandy Mona 56:43

Well, that's also the commercialism, too, of the practice. Because that's when, like, I'll get, yeah, I've done yoga before. I went to hot yoga, and I go, why did you do that? Like, that is a terrible introduction because if you're not prepared for that practice, that would turn anybody off and scare anybody away from what yoga is. So it's the holding of the container is very much dependent on what practice that you're doing. So this is now not studio yoga. People, I'm in a mental health space. So my mindset has shifted at this point. And I'm doing all of this schooling. In order to be a yoga instructor, you have to do continuing education. So I was doing all of this stuff, all of these different trainings, trauma trainings, specific type of yoga training. So like Hatha yoga versus vinyasa, doing a lot of like the deep diving of the big umbrella. So when I can't, I'm I'm here in this space. And again, when I said baptism by fire, you have to learn. You are in the shark tank and you have to learn because nobody prepares you for that. And the hiring body doesn't know what yoga is, they just know what everyone else knows.

Regina Sayer 58:02

Yeah. It's exercise.

Mandy Mona 58:04

Yeah, exactly. I was there for the exercise, and I said, no, that's not what this is. And thankfully, at that point, the person who was running it at the time was willing to have that conversation with me and understand, you know, what I was doing. So I had to give a little education. Not everyone is receptive to that. Not everyone, it's like you're here to teach yoga and that's it. I wasn't looking for that.

Regina Sayer 58:26

So in

Discovering yoga therapy and integrative healing

Regina Sayer 58:27

walk's the yoga therapy.

Mandy Mona 58:29

Yes. Exactly.

Regina Sayer 58:31

And change your life more.

Mandy Mona 58:33

Yeah, exactly. And then the yoga therapist comes in. She is a yoga therapist by trade for a very long time. Which is so yoga therapy is the curious investigation of one's root causes of strife in your life, complications. I can go into depth of that definition, but it's a very multi-layered experience. So we're dealing with a whole person rather than the physicalities that we identify with every day. And the physicalities can be also labels and identities that we take on. So this process of yoga therapy is who I am at my core, without my responsibilities, without my jobs, without my labels, without my ailments, without my conditions, just who I am.

Regina Sayer 59:30

Why call it yoga therapy? Because I can hear people out there going, oh, well, that's coaching or therapy or whatever, but so where's the yoga in that?

Mandy Mona 59:39

So it's using of yoga tools and holistic modalities that is what's used for navigating this exploration of yoga.

Regina Sayer 59:49

So it's it's a combination of yoga with other types of modalities.

Mandy Mona 59:55

Holistic modalities.

Regina Sayer 59:56

In an integrated way.

Mandy Mona 59:58

Yes. Yeah, integrated way. That's a good way, good word to use. Because it uses Ayurvedic teachings, it uses yogic text teachings, philosophies, and then you have breath work, meditations, sensory work through the eight limbs of yoga is very much entangled into that. So you have a physical practice of some sort. And now we have somatics, and then you have an asana practice. So it's kind of getting a little bit um even more in-depth as to what these practices look like because now research is more than ever so involved. So yoga therapist comes in and I'm sharing an office with her, and I'm in my space and I'm doing all these things. And at the same time, I'm listening to her and I'm bouncing ideas off of her because she's trying to help me. What do you do? How do you, you know, what do I do? Who are you? Where have you come from? Kind of thing. And I was asking her, I said, I at that point, I have really exhausted all of the physical yoga things. I was either going to go on the track of just teaching yoga or this yoga therapy that's kind of mystically hanging in the mist behind me. And she goes, you know, you should really be a yoga therapist. You already are doing it naturally. You have an inkling for it, and you're just a good person, and I think you should give it a go. And I was like, Okay, I'll do it. I'll do it. She helped me get registered for my first class. Now she's my mentor, and I love her so much. She's so humble, and I'm in this first class, and everyone, the teachers all know her. Everyone in the yoga therapy world knows her. So she's this humble, she's Yoda. That's what I call her, my Yoda. She's this little lady in the corner, and she's doing all this groundbreaking stuff and working with the heads of yoga therapy, like the people who are the pioneers of this therapeutic endeavor. She knows all of them. And I'm listening to these teachers talk. And what is so amazing about yoga therapy and about, and I'll praise it to I studied with Inner Peace Yoga Therapy. Their program is so diversified in terms of working with human beings with everything. I could say, I feel so confident I could work with anybody at this point because of how prepared and diversified they are. Everything was okay, this is the yoga therapy big frame, but we're gonna take it and we're gonna look at just the human body. We're gonna look at injury, we're gonna look at the body systems, the tissues, the organs, the physical body. And then we're gonna turn over here. Here's yoga therapy, and we're gonna look at it just from the grief lens, or just at cancer care, or just at Ayurveda, or anxiety and depression. I mean, it was just like this giant roadmap had opened up. And then I go, now where do I want to turn? Do I want to stay in mental health? Do I want to continue to work with addiction? I had even more things open up, and my mentors every year going, ride the wave, learn what you can, and something is gonna speak to you. Something's gonna get you really excited, be excited about it. But just remember there's options meeting all of these teachers and then being in these cohorts with all of these people, and then I'm taking this education and I'm going to work, going, the perspective is so beyond this room that we're in. Let's get weird. Let's let's figure this out. And then with that confidence that was building, and I'm learning how to take care of myself, and I'm taking this home to my kids, and I'm teaching my kids these things, and my husband, I'm giving him some dropping some knowledge on him, or it all of a sudden is now this circle of okay, I'm living this life, this lifestyle is coming. I can deliver this effectively to somebody else. Going, here's the frame, but how you change it is up to you. Because there's going to be practices that land and feel good, and you're like, yeah, this is for me. And then there's going to be ones that it's just like, holy cow, nope, not yet. That's not for me yet. And to be in the room of somebody watching the light bulbs turn on, and I go, I remember that feeling. I remember that day. And people going, wow.

Grief education and seeing grief everywhere

Regina Sayer 1:04:47

So the yoga therapy, you specialize in certain parts of it, like yoga therapy for grief or yoga therapy for cancer or mental health.

Mandy Mona 1:04:55

Grief is everywhere.

Regina Sayer 1:04:56

Yeah, true.

Mandy Mona 1:04:57

Grief is everywhere. Grief is an addiction, loss of lifestyle. There's always the overlap.

Regina Sayer 1:05:04

Okay.

Mandy Mona 1:05:04

And you kind of don't know the overlap until you start looking at people and you're reading their files and you're talking to their therapist or you're watching them in group settings, and you can go, you know what? I can tailor this to the group, and then I can also tailor this to this specific person. I wasn't where, yes, it's mental health and addiction for me. I was still in the throes of it. And I go, do I want to go into oncology? You know, and this is when I got my first taste of grief education, which brought up all the grief that I never experienced as a child.

Regina Sayer 1:05:43

So you actually had classes that you were going to where they were teaching you how to explore this and explore this within the body and within the mental and emotional framework. Exactly. And was it shocking for you to suddenly have this grief coming out of you that you didn't really know you were holding?

Mandy Mona 1:05:59

Yeah. It swept me right off my feet. And I remember I was at my parents' house because my mom would help me with my kids. My husband would be at work and I would be with the kids and I had school. So my mom and my brothers or my sister would help me with the kids. So I was with them while I was in school. And that particular module hit me and I was with my dad. And I remember talking to my dad because I was thinking about my grandmother, my dad's mom. So we talked about it and we were in the hallway. And I go, how did we navigate this? And I remember him telling me like the grief had never left him. And then I saw him in a completely different light. I felt at level with him because then I realized like how he's handling these things. He never learned how to grieve either. And I go, how did we make it this far? Like, what have we been doing? He goes, we just we honor them. And that was our way of grieving. And I go, in my class, we're talking about grief and all of these ways to look at grief. And, you know, and it isn't, it wasn't um the stages of grief that we talk about out in the world. It was a different form of stages of grief. And then I'm looking at these things and things are dots are being connected. And I go, God, this just makes me feel so sad. I said, I feel like I'm now starting to grieve for the very first time. And I go, this is so complicated. And he was like, it's hard.

Regina Sayer 1:07:33

And who walked you through that grief? Who helped you get through that?

Mandy Mona 1:07:38

After that conversation, I started talking to my parents about it. Since I was, they were there, and I would say, Hey, this is what we were talking about in class. What do you think about that? Honestly, I've never asked them this, but I feel like they were learning alongside of me.

Regina Sayer 1:07:54

Yeah. Sounds like it.

Mandy Mona 1:07:55

At that point. Because I remember the pause of like watching my mom hear my question. And then they go, huh. And then something had come up with my dad because he had also lost his brother to cancer. And I don't know where, how this aligned timing-wise, but he had had a handwritten letter from his brother. And we were looking at, he goes, Hey, look at this letter. And then I'm looking at this letter and I'm looking at my dad. And I go, Holy cow, what is this like for you to have lost your brother? And, you know, whatever grief looked like for my grandparents for losing a son. And then looking at my dad, who had lost a brother and a mother, and going, is this hard for you? Or does this give you some peace? He goes, it's in the middle. He goes, it's different every day. And I go, wow, because it's different for me every day. And now that I'm, you know, I'm reflecting at this point. And they say new grief triggers old grief, but I was just grieving in general at this point. And I go, this is so thick and so personal. And it just makes you just think of everything big picture of what this all embodies. This is early on in my yoga therapy training. So then I'm going in through these other models like cancer care and stress and anxiety and the addiction. And I go, oh my God, there's the grief everywhere. It's sprinkled in in every module, in some way, some big, some small, but it's mental health. And here I am going to work, and I'm working with people who have lost a lifestyle, lost a family, lost a career. It's everywhere. And I go, I feel very at home here. And then I ended up losing that job because they went very corporate and ended up wanting the very physical yoga. And I said, okay, that's fine. And then I end up working for myself in the meantime, all of these different things. I'm teaching at gyms, I'm doing things at the pool, like just promoting myself. And I'm going, something is going to shift. Something is coming. And then I end up at this psychotherapist office where our ethics align 100%. And I go, yeah, mental health, this is it for me. Like I, this is what I want to do. This is what I really, really want to dive into. And I'm seeing one-on-one clients. I do group work. I am working with human beings beyond diagnosis, beyond what life has given them.

Regina Sayer 1:10:43

So listening to your story and knowing what's coming next, it's almost like something is preparing you for the massive grief that you are getting ready to face. So talk about this now that with your pregnancy and what happened.

Pregnancy, twins, and the beginning of a devastating loss

Mandy Mona 1:11:00

So the psychotherapy office and my big life change overlap one another. I ended up being pregnant and one of my scans, they're like, oh, there's a baby in there. I'm like, okay, great, great. And my timeline's a little blurry because that's what grief does to you. So if I get the weeks or months wrong, bear with me. Find out we're pregnant. And I go, okay, like here we are. This is so exciting. My sister is pregnant at the same time. And my cousin, who I'm very close with, pregnant at the same time. So we tell all the close family members, I say, hey, I'm going to have a baby in July. This is so exciting. And then we go to one of the first scans at the high risk doctor, because all my pregnancies have been high risk. So I go to the high risk doctor, get a scan, and the lady says, Hey, it was twins. So kicker is it was twins. My husband and I are looking at each other going, What? Twins? It was twins? Where what do you mean was? And healthy baby. And then this little tiny little sack next to it with a little tiny peanut inside. They said, it looks like it's vanishing twin syndrome. It's very common. And I go, that was a lot. Okay. Like, you know, we have this baby, we're excited. There was two, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, twins. And then it's, oh, it's vanishing. So this weird seesaw effect is happening. And I cry about it. My husband cries. My dad was there, which I was so thankful for because he was able to really ground us in that moment of like, okay, there's there were two babies. It's okay, there's just the one. And then all of a sudden, the genetic counselor comes in and they're saying, you know, there's some conditions that we need to monitor because of the vanishing twin. And I'm like, you know, thinking medically, it's like, of course, there would be something to keep an eye on. But in my emotional brain, where I was, go, what do you mean? We need to keep an eye on something. And we're going over the options. And there they said that this condition called triploidy is very common in vanishing twin syndrome cases. And what that is, is when the twin starts to vanish, there is a how do I want to explain this? It's like the surviving baby absorbs the genetic information from the disappearing baby. However, it is very hard to see that in utero. I had to come back and get an amniocentesis, which is the testing of the fluid in the sac, or we monitor for physical things, which can be like body parts not developing all the way, amongst a couple other genetic markers, but that does not mean that you'll know it. So they're like, okay, we have to wait till you're a little further along and we're gonna take a peek. So I had time to decide am I gonna do this amniocentesis or I'm not gonna do this amniocentesis. I'm just gonna watch the markers. And the ultrasound tech and the doctor who looks at it goes, we don't see any physical markers. This, you know, looks okay. Like, I don't really know that we have any concerns. So in my mind, I'm like, okay, trusted doctor tells me that they don't see anything, but I still, in the back of my mind, need to make a decision. And it was a lot of back and forth and going, you know, they have to give you the percentages of like if something was to happen post-amniocentesis and, you know, all the medical things. And I go, God, this is so overwhelming. And I'm going, okay, this is also very just very sad because we could have had twins. Then it comes down to what my husband and I are talking about it. What do you you know, and he's very much always, and I'm so thankful for this. He's very aware that this is my body, and I get to make choices over my body. And I'm like, well, I still want your, you know, I still want your thoughts. I want you to feel seen and in this process. And he goes, No, he goes, I'm gonna figure it out either way. But you are the one who has to endure the stress and all the emotions that come with it because it is happening to you biologically, and that has repercussions across the board. So I said, I don't think I'm gonna do it. I said, I don't know. I said, I want to see what the scan looks like. So game time comes, we're going to this extra ultrasound to kind of see that was gonna be the deciding factor. And the ultrasound text, she's digging and digging and looking, and you know, not much is being said, baby on the monitor, not seeing much, and it happened so fast. It was, I hate to tell you this, but there's no heartbeat. And I go, What? What did you say? I know this ultrasound text, she's done all my ultrasounds to be her to tell me that I've lost my baby. Um, I think about her all the time. I think about all those ladies in that practice. But um, it was you've lost your baby, let me get the doctor. And I'm sitting there staring at my husband, just what did she just say? Like the shock was all that was in the room, all you could feel. And I go, I have to call my mom. Because literally the night before I was talking to my mom about the decisions. You know, she goes, I want to see you enjoy this pregnancy, you know. And I call her and say, the baby's gone. And she goes, Oh my God, let me get your dad. And thankfully, my dad works in that area. So he was able to get to me very fast. Again, that grounding factor to what is happening in the room and being able to ask the questions because at this point, people are talking to me and it's just ping-ponging off of me. I'm not absorbing anything. My husband's not absorbing anything. We're just at a total loss of all faculties at that time. And that was the start of what's next. Lots of things were repeated. It was a very quiet drive home. My kids were at home with my mom. They're gonna see me and their father blood red in the face. I don't get to hide this information. I have to let them know. And my brain, it was, I was so cut open emotionally. I'm thinking, how the hell do you deliver this information? Because nobody ever prepares anyone for that. It's the, oh, you're having a boy, you're having a girl, you're having a healthy baby. Well, what do we do when there's no baby anymore? The soul is gone. How am I supposed to tell my 10-year-old and my four-year-old daughter, who's on the spectrum, that they lost their sibling? That's not even tangible yet. This baby is inside of me and it's and it's gone. I go, I'm not equipped for this. I don't know what I'm doing. We're riding the wave. So we go to my parents, gather my kids, and we sit in the room by ourselves and tell them. And my daughter doesn't understand. Navigating grief with that has been a learning curve for sure. But my 10-year-old son is very much aware. And him and I are very close. He's very hyper-aware of me and my emotions. So, of course, him thinking of me before himself. And I said, buddy, I said, right now, I need you to have your feelings. I said, This is how I'm feeling. And you might not have names for your feelings. It might not just be here yet, and that's okay. What it is gonna be is that we're gonna be sad. That's gonna be probably the blanket emotion in all of this, is that we're gonna be sad. And he's like, Yep, okay. And then it was kind of everyone is circled around me, trying to figure out, like, okay, like I had to go back to the doctors to go over my options, which were talked to me at the appointment. But, you know, I'm like, I don't remember. My dad remembers some of it, but he also is in disbelief. He wants to hear it from a doctor too. My mother wants to hear it from a doctor, you know, not hey, this is what they said. It's like I want it straight from the mouth because that's comforting, and I understand that that was comforting for them. So it was very much this waiting game. And my doctors were able to get me into the next appointment the next day to where we talk about the options. And that was, you know, that journey of having my baby, my quiet, silent baby, and what, you know, that very interesting place to be because I got a lot of firsts out of giving birth to Tyson because my kids were C-section babies. Tyson was not. So I never like really had the experience of giving birth like that. So it's like, okay, this very, very sad situation, but look what I got out of it. And that was kind of where I was mentally going. I have to have something, not to validate, not to make it more real. I just needed something to hold on to. And that's what it was was Tyson gave me this gift of having a birth story different like any other. And again, no one tells you or prepares you for those conversations that haven't happened in that in that hospital room. I've never seen education on that. I remember taking birth classes with my first son. I wish there was more out there, more resources along those lines, because I think everyone needs to not be prepared to worry about it, but just to be educated because there's power in education. But then it was four weeks postpartum. I was maybe less than that. I'm at my parents' house because I wasn't ready to go home, because being at home was too real. I come home, and the first night I'm home, we have a barn fire. Our horse barn catches a blaze. So that was really crazy to navigate that. And I'm like not even spatially aware of what's going on. And then probably a week after that, I go to grief group my first time. I remember it was probably maybe two days after being out of the hospital. I got the email of like, hey, here's some resources for you. And I'm like, okay, that's there. Sure. I knew in the back of my head that community was going to be really important. So I was a little bit more receptive in that way. It was just the matter of when I was gonna go. And I knew that it was gonna be me being brave to go in person and not go virtually. And I knew that's what I needed. It was like one of those like kicking myself in the pants to like, let's go. We need this, we'll thank ourselves later, kind of thing. And I go to this grief group and I'm sharing my birth story with these people, husbands and wives. And I go, okay, this is the start of my grief work. And what I love about my group, and I still go, is everyone is of different lengths of time. There's recent, there's two years, one year. They still come for various reasons. And I love that. We also have had nurses come in from labor and delivery to see that happen, go, okay, here's the bridge of where some of the education in this rough form is starting. Because the nurses that come to those shifts to deliver silent babies are ones that sign up. You sign up to do those kinds of things. It's not assigned to you. You choose. So if you are not in it, you do not know it. And these are regular labor and delivery nurses coming in to listen to us talk about what grief is and what it's looked like for us. It's been very interesting because I wasn't ready to go to talk therapy. I wasn't there. I knew it was coming, I knew I needed it. And I'm trying to figure out where I wanted to look and what I wanted it to look like and things like that. But it was okay. I'm going to this grief group. I'm navigating my grief. I'm navigating my children's grief. I'm side by side grieving with my husband. And then I'm also side by side grieving with my parents.

Regina Sayer 1:24:11

Yep.

Mandy Mona 1:24:12

And what their grief looks like and has looked like. So there's a really easy way to get lost in the comparison of like, I'm grieving this way. Why aren't you grieving this way? Yep. I've been doing things very slow. And you can kind of, when building awareness skills and really learning to look at yourself, you kind of get that gauge of, okay, I'm I'm moving a little quick. So I've got that to where I'm going, okay, I think I'm moving at the wrong frequency right now. Let me pause. Let me set some boundaries for myself and for my family. And then we'll revisit. We'll do other things. You know, at that point, I wasn't even thinking about touching my yoga mat. I wasn't even thinking about any of the coping skills because in the raw, very beginning, you're just trying to survive. You're just trying to put your feet on the floor every morning. But I also, when I felt ready, that was also where my practice came back to me was now that I've sat up, what can I do that's going to make me feel a little bit better today? What are my kids doing? And then what do we need to do together? Because I can't grieve for them, but I can be side by side with them, very close, side by side. For my son, like he was an avid reader. The loss of interest was his kind of grief red flag. He was really big into Legos. He stopped building. And even with like my husband, you know, he wasn't talking to very many people, but he was like, I'm okay. I'm, you know, I'm figuring it out. We're focusing on our son. And I told him, I said, listen, buddy, I am gonna try to get back to something that makes me feel good. Do you think that you could take that step with me? And he goes, I think so. I said, Great. Where do you want to start? I said, I am gonna color. I love to color. That's my nighttime routine is I color in my bed and I do my low gratitude journal. But I needed to start somewhere. I said, I think I'm gonna color. Do you think you'll build? He goes, maybe. I think I will. And then I would kind of give him the space. There are a couple days where he just kind of wasn't ready. And then all of a sudden, one day I hear all this rustling and going, I said, those are Legos. And I peek in, he's got his little player in my peek in, he's at his desk building. I go, what you building, buddy? He goes, I just kind of felt like I was good to build today. And I go, ah, amazing. Does it feel good? He goes, Yeah. And I tell my husband, I'm gonna go color, or I'm gonna go step outside. And then I go, Leo, I'm gonna go step outside, or I'm gonna color. Do you want to come sit with me while I color? You know, and then it's conversations of there's the silence that we're all feeling something, and then being ready to then go, This sucks. I go, it does, buddy. I'll tell my husband, yeah, it freaking sucks. And talking every night and just going, if we're not ready to do other tools, sometimes talking is just enough, or sitting together is just enough. Realizing that it changes every single day was a big deal. Because you hear people tell you in therapies and in groups, grief is different every day. And I'm going, what does that even mean? And then you go, ah, this is what they mean. And then it goes. From sitting up in my bed and putting my feet on the floor to then, okay, I'm gonna have some water when I wake up. What small piece of my routine can I bring back? And then there's the days where it was so heavy and it was, I can't touch my water. I'm just gonna go sit outside for a minute, or I'm gonna cry, or call somebody, or I text my sister. So it's really not being judgmental to ourselves and really taking the temperature and going, what is it, big or small, that I need right now? And then that can just be enough. But then if it's not enough, what do you feel like you do need in that moment?

Regina Sayer 1:28:45

And

A butterfly garden as a memorial

Regina Sayer 1:28:46

you you talk about you've done something that's quite beautiful. You talk about you've built a butterfly garden as a memorial.

Mandy Mona 1:28:55

The symbol for stillbirth is a butterfly. And at the hospital when I was leaving, there was a butterfly tape to my door. And I said, I wonder what that means. And I researched it, and that's what it was. And then that was my symbol. Butterflies were my symbol. Where I was then in my grief was very much the very familiar feelings of when I was young and all that stuff would build up. And I said, okay, now that I know what that was back then, I know it now. I'm going to use the same skills I had then. I said, I need to get physical. I need to get my hands on something. But with my care in mind, what do I want to create? Right. The artist was coming out. And I told my husband, I said, I think I want to make a butterfly garden. And I literally went out. We were outside with our dogs, and I took sticks that had fallen off the trees and I just mapped it with branches. I said, This is it. I said, I want four corners to symbolize the four trimesters of pregnancy. And I want everything to bring all the butterflies. And we already have butterflies here naturally at our farm because we have natural milkweed. But I said, but I want the monarchs. I want more. I want them to be everywhere. And especially in this special place that is just for Tyson. And I started researching what are some native plants that I can use and what is what are the monarchs like? And then I was ready. And I said to my husband, I said, I think I'm ready to do this. He goes, Yeah. He said, Let me go get the bobcat. And he pulled the grass up. And there it was. I said, it was stage one of this project. I said, okay, I gotta find some ways to line this out. How am I gonna make these garden beds? And a good friend of mine was like, hey, I got these big posts. She's like, we can out, you can outline it with the posts. I said, amazing. And then I have the four my four corners. We brought the dirt in. And then things were slowly starting to take shape. And then there was the shepherd's hooks. Another friend of mine got me this beautiful memorial wind chime that I hang and it's got his name on it. And then all of a sudden it was time to buy plants. And then I'm just watching and I go, holy cow. And then the butterflies came and I go, oh, here they are. I was like, I feel it. I was like, I feel him here with me. And then seeing the butterflies, I go, oh, thank you. Thank you so much. And and then it was having this physical symbol of my grief and my love for my baby. I have nephews who lost a cousin. I have children who lost a sibling. I go, you can come here. Here is our communal space to share our love.

Regina Sayer 1:31:53

You

Honouring Tyson at the beach

Regina Sayer 1:31:54

had a commemoration recently as well.

Mandy Mona 1:31:56

So his due date was July 21st. So we really were trying I tried to get everything ready for that date, which kind of was, you know, life happens. And I told myself, you know what? If it's not ready by that time to do something special for him, then I will find another time. It actually worked out in decent timing this past weekend. We took some of his ashes and we spread them at the beach. Though his ashes were so small, we only had a teeny weeny bit amount, but that felt better. And then we took the bag and we put the rest of the ashes with the larger amount in his urn and I sealed it. Like super sealed. And I said, you know, his spirit knows what it's like to be free. But now some of his body knows what it's like to be free. And my kids helped. We all did it. We took a little pinky, put it in the ashes, and spread it, put it in the ocean. It didn't need to be this grandiose thing. Part of it was, I think, in my intentions in that. I think I was again more worried about everyone else. That pressure was not for me. It was for others. And then we go to the beach and it's organically going, This is a good time. And it was just us. And I go, this felt good. This was the right time. And then we just had this really lovely weekend. But it was like, again, because people are like, oh, you're gonna have a funeral, or you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that. I was like, I'm not sure. Because, you know, no is a complete sentence, but so is I'm not sure. Because I have to figure that out. My family needs to figure that out. And and then it, you know, it loops back to like being mad at God for taking my baby, you know, that revisitation of that, which again, I'm at the crossroads again, and that's okay. Things are showing up in my life in a way that it's an act of my higher power. So that when I'm ready to take that peace back, I'll take it back. Right now, in this moment, it's very much still internal. They are there. All my angels and my grandmother and both my grandmothers, all of my family angels, I know that they're there. That will never change. But when I'm ready to have a more fulfilling relationship with that belief system, it'll be there when I'm ready. And that's a part of it because you do you question everything. You question how you live your life, you question your career. Every faculty that there exists, you question it. But being able to show up every single day in some way for you, yourself, that has the ripple effect. You get to see it happen, but it's in its own time.

Regina Sayer 1:34:50

And

Returning slowly to practice, teaching, and daily life

Regina Sayer 1:34:51

so are you slowly starting to return to the things you love, like the yoga therapy? And I think you are also going to go more deeply into the Ayurvedic studies as well.

Mandy Mona 1:35:01

Yep, that's on the forefront. You know, I'm coloring again at night, my bedtime routine has returned, my morning routine, even though it's going to change with school starts. But, you know, it's like, okay, I feel more at the helm of this than I did. I was very much at the back of the boat, and now I feel like I'm at the front. But, you know, it's like, okay, I do get to do this and then also continue to do this at my own pace and do this how I feel like I need to do it, not based off what they say, not based off what other people are doing, because again, it's so easy to get lost in that external way of thinking and living. And then that's also what yoga and yoga therapy is all about. It's not external, it's all within in our timing. But do we have the patience and willingness to ride that out no matter how messy?

Regina Sayer 1:36:04

And are you coming back into doing your yoga practices now?

Mandy Mona 1:36:07

I am.

Regina Sayer 1:36:08

And are you coming back into teaching as well?

Mandy Mona 1:36:11

Yep. I am teaching at another place. I actually got a new teaching opportunity at a community college. And I stepped on my mat, and it was very much that familiar feeling of like, okay, we can do this. I can be alone with myself, alone with my body, and alone with my emotions, and know that I can successfully manage them in my own way. And sometimes it is my practice is laying around on the floor and rolling a lot around like a hot dog. As long as I'm breathing and feeling, I'm doing something, I'm practicing something, you know, or I'm moving my body, or I'm working on something that I want to do, or, you know, to have those goals. And again, the humbling experience of it doesn't look the same every day.

Considering grief mentorship and continuing her own healing

Regina Sayer 1:37:01

Yeah. Have you made the decision to go into the grief part of yoga therapy?

Mandy Mona 1:37:07

That is on the forefront in the horizon. I have an opportunity to do a mentorship in grief. I don't have to make up my mind yet. I'm in therapy now, and I go to this grief group, and I told myself that if I had any doubt, any tiny little bit of doubt, the tiniest, itdiest bit, that I wasn't ready. But I can always come back and try it again. I might. There's days where, and again, the part of me that just loves to share with everybody because everyone needs to hear it also tells me that even if I am scared to try it because I know that there's going to be growth in that. There's going to be something for myself, and then being able to in turn give that to someone else and to show someone that.

Regina Sayer 1:37:56

Yeah. So because we're coming to the close of our podcast, and it sounds like you're still in that learning process of what it is that you need, and you're still discovering that every day. And but the main thing sounds like you've learned to listen to yourself that this is what you need. Like you said, I don't want to drink the glass of water, I'm not going to drink the glass of water, I'm going to go outside because that's where I feel like I need to go outside. So, with everything that you have been processing, and also, I guess, taking into account what you have also learned through the yoga therapy. What is advice that you could give to somebody? And I'm asking this because you are not the only person that I am talking to, and I hear these types of stories about women, you know, given stillbirth. And as you said, every person it touches shows their grief in a different way. So, what is advice that you could give to somebody who this is happening to and they just don't know what to do? And also for the person who are trying to support them, what is it that they can do as well?

Mandy Mona 1:39:13

Yeah,

Mandy’s advice for grievers and support people

Mandy Mona 1:39:14

yeah. The support person role is a really big deal because a lot of times we, it's what can I do? How can I help you? And the griever does not know that. And I learned this technique. You give them an option. Can I get you some coffee and breakfast, or can I pick your kids up from school? You know what I mean? Here's two choices, not six, two choices. Yep. I didn't know about this obviously months ago, but I wish we would have known that because that is exactly what I what I needed. Because that's the question I got. What can I do for you? Or I don't know what to do for you. So for that person that is in the support role, give the options or sit with them. You don't have to talk, you don't have to do anything, just sit and be the ear when it's time. That is my advice for the support role. Okay. My advice for the griever is to remember that you are having the experience and that if you need help, you reach out for help because you deserve it. Whatever help you think you need, it doesn't need to be clinical, it might be just a walk or putting your feet on the floor.

Regina Sayer 1:40:35

Baby steps, small steps,

Mandy Mona 1:40:37

Teeny weeny little steps because it is ugly, it is heavy, it is tangled, it is all of the craziness balled into one word, but it is something that can be taken small and slow, and you are not to be on someone else's timeline. You grieve as long as you need to grieve.

Regina Sayer 1:41:03

Yeah, and that can be related back to the group that you said that you belong to, where different people were coming in on different timelines. People two years later are still grieving. Yeah.

Mandy Mona 1:41:15

One of the girls in my group, and she says this frequently I come here to talk about my son, to speak life into his name because his body does not have it. And again, when you're fresh and you're hearing that, that is a lot. But at some point, that power and that power of community, when you're ready for it, it's a game changer.

Regina Sayer 1:41:38

Beautiful advice. And it's advice I hear echoed from other people as well. So I won't say they're in the exact same circumstances as you, but you know, similar. And grief shows its head in so many different ways, as you already said. I think that there's a lot that you have just said that is very, very deep, and that I think people should just sit with.

Mandy Mona 1:42:01

And I will say, one of my teachers said this, and I love it, is when you're dealing with big concepts like this, you don't have to grab the whole of it. You just have to grab the tail. When I teach and I talk about these things, these huge concepts, and you need to sit and let it digest. You simply just grab the tail because at some point you will grab the entirety.

Regina Sayer 1:42:24

Okay. Thank you. All right. So I don't know if you want to do, you do want to share where people can connect with you if they want to follow you on any social media.

Mandy Mona 1:42:34

Yeah, for sure.

Closing and Connecting with Mandy

Mandy Mona 1:42:36

So I am on Facebook as Blooming Moon Yoga and Holistics. That is where I am most active. I'm also on Instagram, blooming moon yoga underscore. I love when people send me messages. So don't be scared. Send a DM and say hi. I I always love when people do that because you end up just connecting in such an awesome way. So social media is definitely the best way to find me.

Regina Sayer 1:43:01

Your work that you do, do you do it through the internet at all, or is it all in person?

Mandy Mona 1:43:06

I haven't brought that back yet to my practice, but it's coming. If you follow me on social media, when I start adding more things to my calendar, it is out there. So stay tuned in that aspect because it's coming.

Regina Sayer 1:43:20

And she has an absolutely beautiful website.

Mandy Mona 1:43:23

Thank you. I worked so hard.

Regina Sayer 1:43:26

Artistically done. It's you can tell her personality comes through. It's good. Any final words that you want to say before we close out?

Mandy Mona 1:43:37

Just thank you for having me. This has been a really, really nice space. I really appreciate it. And I hope that people listen and grab the tail. Thank you.

Regina Sayer 1:43:49

And thank you, listeners. I do hope that wherever you are in the world, have a beautiful day. Bye, everybody.