The Blk Powerhouse Podcast
Welcome to The Blk Powerhouse Podcast, where we explore the publishing industry through the lens of Black voices. Whether you’re a writer, author, publisher, bookseller, librarian, or book influencer, this podcast is for anyone navigating the world of books—from the page to the bookshelf and beyond. We’ll tackle everything from how to break into the industry, to building lasting careers, to making meaningful connections in an ever-evolving field—and, most importantly, how we, as Black people in this space, can work together to create the equitable changes we need to see.
The Blk Powerhouse Podcast
Secrets to a Long-Lasting Publishing Career with Malaika Adero
This episode highlights the challenges and triumphs of Black voices in the publishing industry, featuring insights from Malaika about her journey from an HBCU student to a seasoned publishing professional. Our conversation touches on navigating micro aggressions, the importance of sales skills, and the value of building genuine relationships in a predominantly white industry.
• Examining the impact of HBCUs on Black publishing
• Discussing early aspirations and career paths in publishing
• Understanding the importance of sales skills in the industry
• Building genuine relationships and maintaining connections
• Navigating cultural shock in corporate publishing environments
• The transition from corporate roles to independent publishing
• Exploring the dynamics of celebrity imprints in the industry
• The advantages that independent publishers hold over corporate ones
• Balancing multiple roles and the opportunities they present
• Addressing microaggressions and strategies for resilience
Thank you so much for being here with me today.
Speaker 2:Thank you, leah, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So before we start, I'd love to just share with the audience how we met, because we just met this year and I think it came in the most beautiful, divine way. So, for those of you who do not know my story, I studied at Clark Atlanta University here in Atlanta, georgia, which is where I started my publishing company, muse and Young Authors Publishing. Now a few months ago, I had the pleasure of meeting Paul Coates over at Red Classic Press and he came to our office. He looked at our books. We met through another organization and as we were talking he was preparing to speak at the Writers Conference on Clark's campus and when we met he just stopped me and he was like just stop, just stop.
Speaker 2:He was like you need to meet my league, are you?
Speaker 1:busy right now and I was like no, I have some free time. So he was like please come with me, like I have to connect you two. And I had the pleasure of meeting you, where I also learned that you also studied at Clark College and Atlanta University before it came. Clark Atlanta University Quick history lesson for you all on HBCUs. And so I just thought that it was so beautiful that three of us all attended and walked the promenade on Clark Atlanta University's campus and have all had careers two extraordinary careers in the publishing industry.
Speaker 1:And for someone like me that's so important because when I first started working in this industry, I didn't see a lot of people who look like me, and I always found myself going to trade conferences and publishing conferences and being one of one, one of two, one of three, and so it was such a beautiful surprise to meet you, to learn more about your career and know that we walked the same hallways and the same promenade at CAU.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. Thank you for the kind words, but, trust me, we were as thrilled at least as thrilled, to meet you as you were to meet us. You know, for all the reasons that you said, you know, paul and I both being book nerds, that's what bound us together. You know, so many years before and understanding how important the tradition, the literary tradition, is in African-American and Black global culture and what an incubator the HBCU, the AU Center specifically, has been for Black intellectualism, black thought, activism, everything. And it is his prayer and mine that you exist and doing the work that you do. So, thank you, thank you, you know, and we're just getting to know each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and again thank you, cause I feel like a lot of the reason why I'm able to exist and do the work that I'm able to do is because of the work that you guys have done for so many decades. So I'd love to you have so much experience in your career, but I'd love to take it back to the beginning. So when you first started at Clark College, your first time on campus, did you know then that you wanted to work in the book industry?
Speaker 2:I actually did. You know I had no idea how that was going to happen, but for me it begins really from a child. My family fed me books so early and consistently that you know it's a habit for me. By the time I get to high school I'm already hooked on reading and writing. I worked on my high school's literary journal and that was an interesting experience because I was in the one percent of my junior high and high school. As far as race is concerned, it's 1% Black. So you know there's that. So by the time I get to Clark College I already want to be an editor.
Speaker 2:But again, I had no idea how to do that. No, I, you know, I didn't know how. If I could tailor my coursework to that, I rather began and my degree is in the social sciences and I rather had the idea at first of getting a degree in political science and I got a minor in mass communications. So that's as close as I thought I could get. I didn't want to go the English department route, you know, because to me that was studying literature that had nothing to do with what I wanted to do, moving forward, and it wasn't Black literature that I'm talking about and it wasn't Black literature that I'm talking about. I'm talking about European literature in the English department. So, yes, I didn't know it, but it took me until graduate school at Atlanta University to figure out how this could happen. That is a career in publishing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's so fascinating because I feel like now people who want to work in publishing I think their first mind is to go the English route and to get a degree in English, but I think that the experience that you get, especially in math media, probably gave you so much exposure to approaching this work in publishing very differently, which honestly skills that you need to be a great publisher and a great editor in any aspect of the book industry.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, because my primary passion was to be an artist, really to be a writer. So, you know, there was that side. I did have this vision of being in publishing, but greater than that, I had this passion for writing and I've been writing stories and poems and whatnot from the time I was quite young. So that was what people saw of me first and that's what led me to that just deepened my, you know, passion and interest in um publishing.
Speaker 1:From the other side, as a writer, you know, being a published writer yeah, yeah, I feel like everyone who comes into publishing at some form of capacity secretly wants to be a writer or already is so it's. It's funny to learn. I'd like more conversations I have with people I realize oh, you're a writer too, you're an editor, but by heart, by trade, you're a writer. I'd love to learn a little bit more about what your first publishing job was and what did that role include?
Speaker 2:publishing job was, and what did that role include? Actually, while I was a student in Atlanta, I got work-study jobs at the Institute of the Black World, which was a consortium of Pan-African scholars from around the world, from around the diaspora, and it was at IBW literally blocks right across the street from where Clark's current radio station is that I learned the basics of production. I learned how to typeset, burn plates Some of this is going to be foreign because it's analog printing, you know, and production. I ran a press, I. We made short books, we published monographs, so, and the organization sold books and its pamphlets and distributed its newsletters through direct mail, land mail. So I was the young person managing the mail list, you know. Printing the brochures, collating them, stapling them, you know. Getting them stamped, you know to go to the post office, you know it was a whole thing, you know, for 360. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know that was in earnest the foundation of my publishing work experience.
Speaker 2:Then, after Atlanta, from Atlanta University's Masters in Library Studies program, I found out about publishing courses. So I went to Howard University book publishing course and that's where I got my first corporate job in publishing. I had the option. I got offered a job as an editorial assistant in New York at Harper Collins and to job as a college textbook sales rep with Addison Wesley, which would keep me in the South you know one of their Southern territories, and I love the idea of moving to New York.
Speaker 2:I couldn't figure out how I could financially pull it off. You know, I was really intimidated I wasn't intimidated by, you know, or let me put it this way, I was brave enough as that young person to dive into New York, but I was. But I needed a place to live. Ok, so I chose the college textbook sales rep job, which was one of the worst jobs I ever had in terms of personal pleasure, but it was boot camp.
Speaker 2:It was so good for me, you know, to be that that on the sales side, to be in this job where I was the first Black person, first Black sales rep they had in that territory, you know, from Charleston, south Carolina, to Cocoa Beach, florida, to work in this environment. What it put me through, the paces it put me through last up to now, you know. So that was my first corporate job, was in sales. Then I went back to Atlanta. It's also the first job I got fired from too, you know. And so I went back to Atlanta. And then I bit the bullet, found a place, found a roommate in New York, moved to New York without a job but got a job as an editorial assistant within a couple of weeks, and that was New American Library.
Speaker 1:Which is impressive. I know people who have been trying to get industry jobs for years, so the fact that you pulled it off in a few weeks is really impressive. And it's fascinating that you say that although the sales role experience was the one that you least, was your least favorite, you didn't really enjoy it, but it taught you so much. Can you explain a little bit more about what a sales job and role taught you? Because in my experience I will say I've published, we published over 40 books, we're an independent publisher and the sales part is like the most frightening part for me, like the production of the book, the editorial.
Speaker 1:Like I'm all game, I'm even great with like coming up with the marketing campaigns, but when it comes to being a sales rep and selling that book it's. It can become very fearful for me and I just I'm like I feel like I shriek up and I'm like I don't know what to do anymore. Where did everything go? How do I sell this book now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, it would have been the same thing for me, but at that time, you know, so many things have changed in general in the job market, including the way young people get recruited to jobs. Recruited to jobs First of all, in just interviewing for assistant jobs, I was flown in. You know, in those days this was 1980, 81, early 80s they would fly a publisher, that is, a candidate even for an assistant job, in from out of town. For the end, that would like never happen. You know, these days, um, um, so uh. But and also, once you got the job, you were trained in ways and I'm not sure that they train people these days, meaning meaning they shipped all of us away, the new hires Addison Wesley did, to a retreat for training that was conducted by IBM. Ibm had a, the tech company had a sales training thing, so they actually taught you how to do it. Because I don't have those instincts either, you know, like you, it was a little intimidating to me. I didn't know what to do. It was like here are our books, and you know what I mean, that kind of thing. So we were trained in that. So that was for me.
Speaker 2:Trade, no, um, job experience, I dare say goes to waste if you appreciate it in a particular way is if you, if you look at every job you have as just a course of study, it's just another class you're taking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it just can be a longer class, but sometimes you can get what you need, you know, in a short bit. But one to answer your question more precisely, being a sales rep taught me how to do presentations, for example. Because you have to prepare for that, you could create that one. You're given one sheet and you create one sheet that bullet point items, for you to go in and know what you're going to say, in this case to that college professor to get that person to adopt your book.
Speaker 2:Right, it's a little easier for me. If I'm going to sell something, it's going to be books, because I'm passionate about it. So I don't have to fake the enthusiasm. Except, I was selling books for a company that published in the hard sciences was computer books, and this was back when, you know, we talked about computer languages. You know, I don't know if you know about that, I can't even remember the names of them, but you know. So I did have to and I knew nothing about that.
Speaker 2:I was selling differential equations textbooks and you know they didn't expect us to read the book and be able to evaluate and say, Whoa, this is the best. You know what I'm saying. We had a script, so you learned about presentations. You learned just that give and take with a customer, developing customer relationships. Publishing is a business of relationships at school.
Speaker 2:Say that one more time, because it's for the people in the back yeah, publishing is a business of relationships, so it doesn't matter how talented, how brilliant, how beautiful you are, how perfect your resume is. You got to have some chemistry and rapport with somebody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sorry, go finish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that is a lot of it. I was also traveling in the company car, you know, driving to all of these places, and that was another. That was an adventure. It was pre-cell phone. So here I am, you know, a girl and you know, a nondescript car, driving between Charleston, south Carolina, and Cocoa Beach, florida, encountering all kinds of things side, you know. But I thought, you know, I had this fantasy that I'd have this job and it wouldn't require work, but not a whole lot of thinking. They'd be putting me up in hotels and you know I could be like Maya Angelou and you know, writing in the hotel, you know, later on, you know, with my glass of wine or whatever, I tell you, I did not get much writing done at all because, while sunsets and beaches are great inspiration to me, there's nothing less inspiring to me than a Ramada Inn in Orlando, florida, yeah, you know, with a plastic bedspread.
Speaker 1:Didn't really set the tone for the creative juices to flow, but I see how the adventure of driving and going city to city and meeting new people all those experiences, I feel like fuel your creativity and fuel the artists. Artists have to live, and so I think that it's also really beautiful that in your trade day job, while working in publishing, you're able to experience all these different things that give you new perspectives on what to write about. But I want to go back to circle back to something that you mentioned earlier about relationship building. So from 1985 to 1991, you worked at Simon Schuster. You quit and then were rehired in 2002, where you became vice president and senior editor at Atria, which is giving high demand. So I'd love to learn a little bit more about how you learned about relationship building from your time in S&S and how did you learn to not only build relationships but maintain relationships over the years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think fundamentally it's by being genuine with people. You know, I mean they're nice people and weird people and you know, everywhere, and I generally like people. So I'm going to lead in my interaction with people, no matter how superficial or how uh serious, I'll say the same way, with respect and expectation that I will receive that back. You know it really does get. You know it's manners, keep ego in check, you know, and I think that that is important, especially where you're entering foreign territory.
Speaker 2:I was entering publishing, was entering a very white world, having left the womb of the HBCU, right, so I'm in this corporate world and it's New York and everybody's so smart and you know, so seeming so short and and you know, and all this, this sort of thing. So you just kind of have to literally, you know, just take a breath, be yourself and do your job. And one thing I learned from the womb and and a lot of black and brown people learn from the womb is how to work hard and take direction and be polite. You know what I mean. We're. We're raised, socialized to serve, you know.
Speaker 2:In that way, the greater challenge, I think and for me, is asserting ourselves to say wait a minute, I have a bigger idea for you, okay, uh, and that's where you have to relearn. I mean, rely on your, what you have inside you, not your degrees, not anything you know. I think if you're confident about yourself and respectful, then it doesn't guarantee that you're going to be treated nice all the time, but it's going to guarantee that you attract. You know a lot of who you are and those are other I've encountered. You know wonderful, brilliant people. I've developed friendships and mentorship relationships with people who were legends to me already, heroes to me, you know. So it's having faith in yourself in a relationship, but also keeping cool and keeping calm and not responding when you're insulted Because you're not being insulted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. There's another segment of the show which is later on, which is let's Do Better. That's what I'm calling it now and I want to highlight and talk about some of those things because I know that a lot of allies are listening to this show and, very similar to you when I came into this industry, I have developed a lot of great relationships with mentors, white mentors, who have helped me, who have taught me what a P&L is, what a tip sheet, and really have, you know, given me so much knowledge and wisdom in this industry. But on the flip side, you do encounter, I feel like, maybe a lot of well-meaning white people but maybe don't have the self-awareness of the things that they say and do, and especially leaving the HBCU hub. That was a huge culture shock for me, you know.
Speaker 1:Luckily, similarly to you, I grew up in a very I'm from Southern California, so I grew up in very diverse schools and then I go from that to then going to HBCU, going to Clark Atlanta University, and I was around my people all the time and then I went from that to a completely white industry and that I feel like it for me personally. It took me a few years to shake that culture shock. You know, luckily, in my day to day my team is very diverse, but when I have to go to trade shows and sales conferences, I'm reminded of the space in the industry that I'm for a corporate publisher who's a person of color, who's dealing with microaggressions every single day, what advice would you give to him or to her on how to continue the marathon of being in this industry while also having to balance the microaggressions that exist in the space?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the first thing is just to take a beat or two or three.
Speaker 2:You can count to 10 if you had that much time you know, literally take the breath and understand one, that somebody else's view and opinion of you. One, you can't control that somebody else's view and opinion of you one you can't control. Two is not even your business, but since somebody has imposed their thing on you, that is not your business what you think of me. Then you have to respond and I believe in responding and standing up for myself, but understanding that you have a job, you know you have to feel in your gut, you know where your boundaries are. For example, I never.
Speaker 2:There's some microaggressions, some insults I was never subjected to, and I think part of it is that they just, you know, just to put it in the street way, they do not have to come for me that way, you know, like, for example, my appearance, you know, just to put it in a street way, they do not to come for me that way, you know, like, for example, my appearance, you know my appearance, meaning having natural hair from day one. You know, in the office, you know it was like the hair has been the hair, it's been the hair. So how I dress, how I accessorize, you know it's been that way.
Speaker 2:And you know, I come from a deep culture and a long tradition of being fly you know that's right.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying. Whatever the corporate and I made a decision. I consciously made the decision to be myself, to do what I would do, naturally in my own world, if these other people didn't exist as much as possible, Because I was used to being in a minority. I was used to being around overwhelmed by non-Black people. You know, coming from East Tennessee, you know I was the only Black girl in my graduating class of school. I was used to that, which is why I got decided to go away from that and the HBCU.
Speaker 2:So when I come back to it, I know just to take a breath, mind my manners and keep my ears open, because I learned so much from just letting somebody have their say, because often they're not even talking to us. You know it's people talking. You know how people talk about you and your presence. For example, um, in the sales rep job, I remember two potential. You know they were college professors. You know they were big deal, you know whatever supposedly on their campus and they're looking at me like I'm a marvel and they say to each other in front of me what accent is that? What way of speaking is that? And then I didn't jump in and try to answer their question. They thought, as far as I'm concerned, they're not talking to me. They're like wasting my time because I need to make this. You know presentation and move on.
Speaker 2:You're like I got another sales pitch, let's keep it going yeah, and then so they answer their own question, because our answers, even about ourselves, don't count anyway. So one says, oh, that's it, that's an educated speech. So OK, what's the surprise? It's like saying, calling somebody articulate, you know what I mean. Calling a black or brown person, or person otherwise stereotyped, articulate. So you have to just let people perform and not speak it personally. That's the biggest thing listen, observe everything, pay attention, go away and sit with it and you'll have the answer is how to respond. Uh, yourself, and this is only personal. Nobody has to believe in this, but I don't think revenge is very productive yeah and people can take that however they want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do your. The other thing I learned it, I and and you know I don't want to talk too much, but um is stand your ground and stay in your position until you are ready to leave or external circumstances move you out, because nine times out of ten, the people who are torturing you, um, often I'll say they're going to leave the company before you do, even the boss. You know, I've had people that it's like, oh lord, please take this person out of my life and they're gone. Yeah, but they did it or whatever. But you know, you, I have outlasted so many people I didn't like. I had a guy in my first year at Simon Schuster he was, he had been there already for some time, but he was not a full editor, he was still an assistant or associate who, you know, took me to lunch and said that he didn't think that the company was for me. I haven't seen that guy in I don't know 25, 30 years. I ended up at that company for 18 and a half years.
Speaker 1:And continue to move up that company for 18 and a half years and continue to move up. And where did he go? Where was he at? But I think that's a great point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he might be sitting on a billion. That's another conversation.
Speaker 1:He might be the head of some bank in Europe for a life Right or found a way to yeah, to get on the business side, which I'm glad that you brought up and I think, for anyone listening or any person of color who's working in corporate publishing, because I think corporate publishing, independent publishing, whether you're a bookseller, there are so many people that exist in the ecosystem of the book world but at some level, regardless of what role you have, I think you are going to come face to face with people. Of what role you have, I think you are going to come face to face with people and, honestly, just a culture that simply was not built for us or built to support who we are. But I love that you just encouraged the audience to. What I heard is to not code switch and to show up as yourself, but to listen and to be attentive, because people are going to tell on themselves and, like you said, that person may not be in that same role or in that same company and you may outlast them.
Speaker 1:And I'm glad that you mentioned that because I'm curious to know. You spent a lot of your career as an editor at trade and corporate publishers but then you took a pivot and launched your own literary firm. So I'd love to learn about the decision-making process of leaving the ecosystem of publishing and editing and going into being a literary agent. What is an agent and why did you make that pivot?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, the first time I'm pivoted like that was when I left Amistad. Because Amistad, that was a dream job for me, being a founding editor at an independent black owned and run company. It was a startup, that's just startup companies or their own, you know, ball of wax. So I did that for about five, six years and then I left there. So again, I'm leaving a job voluntarily. Every time I've left a job voluntarily Simon and his sister the first time. Then Amistad, you know I leave. I have to leave with some kind of income, a project or something. The first time it was to author a book and the second time it was to create what I call blue media editorial services. And I took it. I dipped into agenting a little bit, but I backed off. It was a different time.
Speaker 2:Fast forward to my 18 and a half year at Simon Schuster. I'm laid off. So there I had to regroup and think of what I'm going to do as an independent, because I've always believed in. The other thing I think is good for you to have inside you is to, if you have it, lose the fear of being unemployed. Verify, okay. And my answer to losing the fear of being unemployed was to create income streams for myself, whether I got a new job or not. So I've always managed to do that. I am straight up Tennessee, african American, not Jamaican, but three jobs. Yeah, my family you know as well, so you know I'm freed up from corporate work once again. I have to put something together. I tell you I'm an agent really because I love supporting other writers. I wouldn't be an agent otherwise. You know it. It can be fun, but it's very risky, it's very difficult, um, it's very difficult to sustain. You know, um, you're really out there, which is why I have three streams of income which is so smart yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know that, even as a business owner and as a publisher, I'm learning that and people have said this time and time again.
Speaker 1:I just am a little defiant and I believe there's money in this space, but people I don't know if you've experienced this or people have shared this to you but people say you don't really get into the book industry to make money because there's not much money to be made, Although when you look at the stats, it's a $310 billion industry globally and I think the US alone brings anywhere from $25 to $50 billion.
Speaker 1:So the money is there, but I think for the people like us who work in this space, we have to be very creative on how we earn our money and have to have all these different streams of revenue, because a lot of the revenue that's made in the industry is being taken by the big five and all of these conglomerates. So, with that being said, you currently are on the founding team. You're one of two executive editors at Awa Press, which was founded by Questlove. At Awa Press, which was founded by Questlove, which is a division and a parent company under Macmillan. Tell us more about this imprint, how you come to work with Questlove and what the imprint represents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know well, the imprint represents a stream inside the ecosystem of trade publishing where you use public figures, well-known people's platforms, to promote to a certain kind of reader. Okay, there've been many of these kind of imprints for a long time and they over time they've included Black public figures more and more. For example, one of the early famous names to have their own imprint, biddy Sim as Simon and Schuster, you know. He's had some kind of book and printer program there now for oh my goodness you know, probably approaching 20 years. So you know that hip-hop icon you know has been a player in publishing with, uh, a label, as it were, his name, you, for a long time, the. What's your name? Phoebe Robinson, two Dope Chicks she has her imprint.
Speaker 1:I know Charlamagne Tha God has his own imprint.
Speaker 2:Has his, you know, at Adria. So Amir Thompson having his particular but very broad platform, you know, from late night TV to music, you know different kind of big fish, you know with when you get down to these celebrity branded imprints, celebrity branded imprints, and Amir has that kind of interest. He's a book person, you know. He's a. He's the combination of hipness and nerdiness, you know, and he reads so and he has ideas, obviously, many ideas about that. So they saw the Farage, strauss and Giroux and the MCD division of that, saw the wisdom.
Speaker 2:And I'm throwing all of these names, you know, because I know that you have professionally interested readers to signal. You know what the map of the ecosystem is, the corporate map People talk about. Were there just four or five companies in publishing? You know, but there's no sense of imprints and brand names, and you know what I'm saying. And in a woo is one of the, the newer ones and that of that and I love it because of its uniqueness, represented by um amir's broad taste in fiction, not fiction, he's not just about music at all. You know history, you know his personal story attached to the clotilled, the slave ship that was unearthed. You know he's come to realize, you know a personal connection in the history space. You know that way, the history space, you know that way. So for me it's an exciting opportunity to do something a little bit different from what I've been doing in book publishing now for decades.
Speaker 1:I'm curious to also to learn the business behind Imprints, and I'm glad that you mapped it out for the listeners out there, because I know a lot of times when people think big publishers, they only think of the big five, but each big five publisher has multiple dozens, if not I would maybe say hundreds of imprints that exist underneath that company. So let's say, a celebrity or an influencer out there is listening and they're thinking of starting a publishing venture. What does starting an imprint at a parent company or a big five publisher look like? Does that person own the rights to their books? Is that shared with the big five or with the publisher? And what does the money look like? Does that imprint solely responsible for the funding of their production or is that one of the many benefits of being with a larger publisher? Is that they cover all those production costs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, all that's negotiable really, and each deal has its own particularities, particular particularity. Um, there is okay. There's the, the traditional publisher author relationship where you have a contract to do a books or books, plural and, um, the the terms of royalties 10 to 15 percent for hardcovers, you know, against retail or net, traditional publishing, primary rights, publication, subsidiary rights, foreign rights, all that kind of business. Then you have the other kind of relationships that publishers have with creatives and authors which could look like a joint venture. I've worked with at least one author who had a joint venture with their publisher, and td jakes was that. Well, you know, td jakes is his own uh, empire, uh that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:So, um, that's a company partnering with the company as opposed to an individual imprint, yeah, yeah, or content, or content creator for the publisher. So it can happen like that. It can happen like indie publishers, like Vicki Stringer who had Triple Crown Press, a press like that and presses like that have been invited, well, have been bought, you know, larger publishing companies, just outright by those companies and they become imprints. That's what happened with Amistad. Actually, you know, it was an independent company when I was with them I left and then a few years later Charles Harris sold it to Harper Collins and there it was. So it happens different ways, you know. So the business arrangement, how the principal person earns money for that, is going to differ to the person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much for breaking that down. I know it can be very confusing, and a big reason why I wanted to start this platform, this podcast, it's to break down the business behind the book, because I feel like the publishing industry can be very secretive. It's not something that you can just Google and find all of the answers to, and so conversations like this and breakdowns are really helpful for our audience. And so, in short, there are so many different ways to be an imprint under one of the big five. I think for a lot of independent publishers we always just think of we build up our independent publishing company and then we sell it. It's been acquired and that's the only way to be an imprint, but there are so many different business models that exist for that to happen. But I'm glad that you mentioned your time working at an independent publisher and I'd love to hear from you what do you think are the advantages that independent book publishers have that corporate publishers don't?
Speaker 2:don't. Well, the biggest one, I think, is that you don't have to answer to people, um, who aren't, uh, as familiar with what you do as you are. You know, for example, if you're you're a parent company and books, and you're owned by, uh, a company, a food manufacturer, you know what I mean. Somebody who's selling breakfast cereals and you know loaves of bread, and, and it's happened. You know, at one point, simon and schuster was owned by, um, this company it's probably good that I can't remember their names, I haven't heard about them, but they own sugar plantations, you know, and hay tea, you know. In Haiti, you know, and Madison Square Garden. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:These corporate alliances aren't always between entities that do the same kind of business, so that can be a problem. Simon Schuster's had a number of owners and they were recently owned by CBS. They are right now. So that was seen as an easier alliance because it was all media. Maybe yes, maybe no. You know what I mean. It depends on who's running these companies at the time. You know it all gets down again relationships. You know the human beings, you know behind this. You know, and, and and a company can't exist. Simon and his sister started from men who were publishing crossword puzzles and grew into this empire. So things change, you know, over time, and and all of that you know over time and all of that you know has to be investigated to understand what the publishing business is really about and how media is impacted by things that we don't associate with being media. You know, like that person who has you know, they want your publishing company to be tilted right wing because they're right wing or left wing because they're left wing. You know what I'm saying. Ownership matters.
Speaker 1:It does and I'm so glad that you said that. That was honestly a big reason why I'm still doing this work as an independent publisher. I always say I got into it by accident. I self-published a book, then started helping kids in my community publish books and that led into a publishing company. But my initial reason for starting a publishing company wasn't because I wanted to be in the industry and be a disruptor. It was, oh, I see a need for a book, I'm going to do it. And then the more I learned about the industry, the more that I realized oh, we need ownership, we need more Black-owned publishers. It kind of goes back to our conversation on imprints.
Speaker 1:But I remember when I was first entering into the industry I would just read PW articles all day because that was like my only gateway into the industry, and I would read about this person who started an imprint. And this person started an imprint and I was like, oh, wow, this is great, they're doing the work. And then a year would pass, two years would pass, and then it would be radio silent and I would always ask myself it seems like there are people who are starting the work of starting these publishing companies, but then we don't hear from them anymore, and it always goes back to ownership who owns that publishing company, who owns that content? Because they make the decisions on what goes and what doesn't, and so, for anybody who's listening, I hope that this is encouraging you. If you are thinking about starting a publishing company or currently are an independent publisher. Know that the work that we do is needed and is necessary, because if we're not going to do it, who's going to?
Speaker 1:I made a post a few weeks ago, um, and I was like there's nobody coming to save us in this industry. I don't think that it's my personal opinion. I could get some flack on it, but I don't have trust in institutions who weren't built for us to do the work required to promote more diverse books and to keep them long lasting, and I think that the way that we see that is by starting our own. So I'm just so inspired by you and so many other people who have worked in the industry, because the experience that you guys have is so necessary, and it's one of the things that I feel like me, as an independent publisher who never worked for a publisher before, is the thing that I'm missing, so loving this conversation, and I know we're coming up on time, but my last question to you is you wear so many hats.
Speaker 1:You are a developmental editor, a consulting editor, an agent, a writer, an acquiring editor, and I know you've worn those hats in different periods of your life. But those are all skill sets that you have. So how do you balance that? How do you know when it's time to write a book just for you as an author? How do you know when it's time to acquire a book and work with an editor, and how do you balance all of these skill sets that you've acquired over the years?
Speaker 2:You know it's hard to do. You have to go with the flow and that sounds, you know, all loosey goosey and all, but you have a sense of when you're taking on too much and sometimes immediate circumstances make the plan for you. Yeah, okay, I have to say, most of the books that I published, it wasn't my idea to do it at that time. You know, somebody came to me with an opportunity and then I said oh so you know life, the universe can order things for you, you know. You just, it's like preparation, you just have to be prepared. You have to, and how you get prepared in life, I think, is to do what you really believe in and what you really like. You know. So baseball is your thing, you know. Then do continue doing that while you do everything else. And if you do that well, you're going to uncheck. You know you're going to check the opportunity. I love your story because you did.
Speaker 2:You did your self-study is what you would be guided toward if you had done formal study, and what I mean by example is reading PW religiously. You know reading. You know I love literature and you know the classics. I don't knock that anybody who was a nerd in any aspect of that respect. However, that is not the business of publishing. But stay in that, because you'll be the person who, in a publishing company, creates, supports, makes successful a publishing program around that kind of literature. You know. Think of how many contemporary works of fiction have been written inspired by Jane Austen, you know.
Speaker 2:So if you're that, that kid who's, you know what I'm saying. So do everything. Don't abandon your passions. I think is the best way for me to put the advice. If you're into fly fishing, if you're into hip hop, if you're into R&B, between 1914 and 19,. You know, whatever, stay there. Do what you have to do to live and keep your sanity and your physical health, to take that opportunity.
Speaker 2:When you meet the publisher of Random House at a same conference where they're looking for talent, you know what I mean. It's very within it's. Have something you're passionate about, because you can't do. Publishing is about everything, every topic in the world, the whole universe of information. So you have to find your length. So you have to be passionate enough about something to go deep in it, to become I don't like the word expert, but I'm going to use it here for the interest of the time but to become an expert in that thing, in a language, in whatever, especially your own, related to your own story. You know, whatever your past is, your roots are, it's going to be fertile fodder for some kind of project related to your profession. Fertile fodder for some kind of project related to your profession.
Speaker 1:You know whether you were dirt poor, you know coming up as a kid, or you came up the son of Bill Gates. Yeah, I love that you said flow and it's so funny that you mentioned that. At the start of each year, I pick a word to just ground myself in for that year, and you said both of them. One of them was flow and the other was rooted. And the reason why flow is one and I love that you talked about that is because different opportunities present themselves at different times.
Speaker 1:There could be a season. There was a season of your life where you were an editor, you were an acquiring editor, and then you were called to write and to let your creativity just run free and to be a writer in that moment. And so I think that, for the people listening out there, and for even myself, reminding ourselves that flow is okay, because I think, especially for someone like me I'm a Virgo, so I'm like, if this is the mission, this is all I'm focusing on I have tunnel vision. I don't see nothing else, I don't hear nothing else, but having that flow, it's so important because you never know what opportunity is going to present themselves. And I think being in a state of flow, it's your fluid. You're able to move with the change, and things are always changing. It's the only constant, and so I'm so glad that you said that and I'm so glad that we shared this time together. My very last question and segment of the show is and this is new y'all, so it may change, but for right now it's called let's Do Better, because I know that there are a lot of allies that are listening and I want this to be a learning experience for everybody.
Speaker 1:And so my question to you is what is the craziest thing that has happened to you or has been said to you while working in this industry?
Speaker 1:An example and I can go first is I remember going to a publishing conference for publishers for small to mid-sized publishers and a man who will not be named, seen Cause I go to these conferences all the time, and so I think this time I had braids and so he comes up to me and like, grabs, like, and not just like one braid, like he grabs a grip of my braids and is like is this all your hair? Your hair grew so much from the last time I seen you. I didn't, I didn't know. And he's like continuing to touch my braid. And I'm just sitting in this conference room across from this white man awkwardly standing as he's touching my hair and I'm just like, no, it's not, but I was just so amazed that he felt so comfortable to come and touch my hair in that way. So I say all that to say, malik, I'd love to hear from you what has been a story or a moment that stands out to you that has happened in this industry.
Speaker 2:I have one of those hair stories. I have two of those hair stories, you know, and I'm not going to repeat them because it's the same Somebody, physically, you know, invades your space, your body, and in my case it's women, one in the office and one who saw me in the street, who worked at a whole other division, who had zero, we had zero contact. That person also tried to hire me, bring me on just a few years ago, and that was a hard no, that kind of thing. You know, leah, the list is is so long and I try not to, um, keep the laundry list, you know, at top stuff, sometimes it's not even what they say, but what they do, like exclude you from a meeting, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, one of the things that come to mind is one of the things that I've suffered from and I use that term suffered loosely is people in the industry apologizing, low-key apologizing for not letting me know about certain opportunities, job-wise, project-wise, because I have one group that say, oh, you know you're so upmarket, suggesting that because I've signed, quote literary writers, you know, maurice Condé, or somebody you know that I wouldn't be interested in a commercial writer, or something like that, which is ridiculous if you look at my record if you know anything about me professionally and not just dealing with some superficial rumor. Then there's another set of people who, because I had published great and successful works of urban fiction and erotica, have said to me um, I thought you only published trash.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you see so that's when we have to take the the 10, 10 seconds of a deep breath. If you have time in that moment to gather yourself, yeah. How do you respond to like? How do you respond to that?
Speaker 2:well, it depends on who the person is. Sadly, I have to say, that person was a black male, uh, bookshop owner, and so I took them over to our booth in BA, because that's where we were the book expo, right, the big trade show. So I said, well, because that's what I was doing with this person. Anyway, I was attempting to lure them over to look at the books. You know that I had coming up anyway, so I just took him over and you know this is what I'm doing. You know, whatever you want to call it, this is who are? These are my authors this season? Uh, because one, I'm not going to let somebody lure me into a fight.
Speaker 2:You know the different ways to fight, you know. You know I'm inspired by the ninja ways to fight, you know, as opposed to the, you know, freeze my face up, take my earrings off, you know, type thing. But all of those, you know, grabbing the hair, saying something inappropriate, looking at you inappropriately. You know there's also the flip side of the insult, where, you know, once there was an occasion that my co-workers were trying to buy me a present and so one of my realer friends, white friends in the office, she was like. She said it was such a discussion about what to get me because they were leaning toward jewelry and you know I wear what I wear.
Speaker 2:You know black artisans and you know I look how I look and somebody says no, how I'd look and and and somebody says no, she has her own jeweler because they'd heard me talk about and went in a way I did. You know, brother actually from Atlanta, juju, you know from Atlanta. You know, brother from DC, the goldsmith. You know what I mean. So it gets down to people trying to be nice, as Chris Rod, you know, say the nice white people. You know, and she has her own jeweler. You know, which is hilarious to me Also, I don't think I said anything about a sense of humor is I don't say don't do anything, but if you're not a black, brown person with a sense of humor, do not get in the business of publishing.
Speaker 1:You're going to need it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but beware if you laugh too animated a way you know, like Kamala, you know they're going to talk about you too.
Speaker 1:They're going to find something to talk about either way. But I think that's why the humor is important, because the humor is for us, it's not necessarily for you. It's one of the strategies we have to keep on going and to stay focused on the prize. So that's a great note to end. On Malika, thank you so much again for joining me in this conversation and for honestly just opening up your arms to me since the first time we met and being willing to give me information and resources and to engage in these conversations. I know it's helped me so much and I really hope that it's helped our listeners out there. But feel free to please tell us where people can follow you and follow your books or any upcoming projects that you want to share with people before we get out of here.
Speaker 2:Well, the agency website is adarosliteratribecom, so you can keep up there and you can send me messages there. And if you're interested in being on my newsletter mail list, which is occasional I don't do, like you know, regular per month then please. But thank you so much, leah. You know you're helping me, you know and have helped me already, so I look forward to the ongoing development of the ecosystem.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. Well, thank you so much.