Freelance vs Full-Time in Video Production: Which Path Builds a Better Career?

In this inspiring episode of Studio B Sessions, we sit down with Andrew, a talented video professional from Orlando, who has carved out a unique career balancing full-time media work with the freedom of freelance production. From his early days volunteering at church to working on global broadcast projects for an international ministry, Andrew shares how his journey has evolved across live production, remote engineering, and content creation.

Andrew dives deep into the gear that powers his work—from Sony and Blackmagic camera ecosystems to ATEM switchers and remote workflows—breaking down how he manages the technical demands of everything from wedding films to spontaneous interviews. He also discusses the challenges of choosing between the flexibility of freelance life and the stability of full-time employment, especially when balancing career goals with family priorities.

We also explore the role of networking and community in advancing a creative career, and how local meetups and chance encounters can lead to unexpected collaborations. Plus, Andrew shares his thoughts on the future of church media, the growing influence of AI in production, and the economics of camera ownership versus rentals.

Whether you’re freelancing full-time, working in-house, or somewhere in between, this episode is packed with practical insights and valuable takeaways to help you level up your video production career.

Chapters

• 0:04 Freelancing Versus Full-Time Job Debate
• 11:15 Navigating Freelance Opportunities With Technical Skills
• 15:30 Mastering Soundbites in Video Production
• 21:50 Maximizing Skills for Live Production
• 27:43 Choosing Between Blackmagic and Sony Cameras
• 35:26 Remote Production With ATEM Controllers
• 46:29 Live Production Techniques and Experiences
• 49:39 Live Production Problem Solving and Planning
• 58:57 Ideal Gigs and Technical Expertise
• 1:06:48 Future of Video Production in Churches
• 1:13:20 Enhancing Church Media Production Quality
• 1:23:05 Church Media Production Budgeting and Communication
• 1:30:42 Comparing Camera Systems for Video
• 1:39:05 Networking and Technical Passion in Video
• 1:46:58 Camera Selection in Video Production
• 1:54:39 Gear Investment and Industry Trends
• 2:01:19 Camera Discussion and Future Prospects

Transcript

Vipul Bindra: 0:04

Andrew, finally we're getting to sit down and talk, so thank you, appreciate you for coming.

Andrew Keller: 0:09

I know this is last minute thank you for making the drive.

Vipul Bindra: 0:13

The good thing is, you were going to come here anyway because you wanted to rent some cables, so I was like this is the perfect opportunity to sit down and talk and just I don't know talk video. I think we can do that anyway, right, oh, yeah, so how have things been? Pretty good man? Yeah, so, just so people who don't know you, what do you do? So obviously you have a job, so you do this full time.

Andrew Keller: 0:35

Yeah, I'm a full time at a ministry here in Orlando. I do kind of everything. You know, when I started I was hired on just to do social media, and the longer I've been here, the more stuff gets on my plate. So I shoot, I produce, I edit a little bit of everything.

Vipul Bindra: 0:52

And the good thing is which you have a collaborator, Quinton, who we've had on the podcast, so you guys get to travel internationally a lot too, Like you're mentioning to me before we started. You're gonna go fly now to brazil, so that is one advantage of working with the ministry you're getting to travel to cool destinations, uh, while doing your work, obviously yeah, yeah, it's really cool.

Andrew Keller: 1:14

I've been to africa twice with them to shoot b-roll. Now I'm going to brazil and germany this year to engineer some live streams and, yeah, it's been a really crazy opportunity.

Vipul Bindra: 1:25

That's so good, and then obviously you do a lot of live production. What do you prefer? Do you prefer just B-roll shooting Cause that's what you've helped me with freelancing on my projects but then for the ministry you're doing a lot of live stuff.

Andrew Keller: 1:38

Do you have a preference or I think I definitely prefer live production. Yeah, I'm, I'm an IT major and I decided that I didn't really want to do IT. So I picked up a camera and the live streaming has been a really good in-between for me, where I get to do the engineering and do the more technical stuff, but still in the world of media production. So how did you get into video? I started at a church, my home church. Growing up I volunteered on the video team. Really really simple.

Andrew Keller: 2:06

It was an old Sony composite out into an OBS machine and I ran camera for a while. And then, when they were due for an upgrade, I helped pick out cameras and stuff. And somewhere along the line I bought a Panasonic G7 and I started doing photos, did a couple really bad weddings and, um, I I still love photography. Um, that's why I got the little camera tattoo, my love of photography. But um, somewhere along the line I kind of realized video was more in my passion. It was a little more technical. So that's where I've gone that's incredible to hear.

Vipul Bindra: 2:43

So I know we've had these discussions anytime. You're freelance for me, but, like you've, obviously you have a full-time job somewhere. You're getting to do cool things, you're getting to travel. But then, you know, this freelance idea sounds really awesome too, where you can be your own boss, potentially make a lot more money, brings a lot more freedom. But there's obviously risks because you know, if you've wife and kid, uh well, no, you don't have not kids but wife.

Vipul Bindra: 3:09

But you have a family and your bills to pay and uh, you know it's an inherent risk, yeah, uh, so you know you're somebody who's like dabbling that. Uh, talk to me a little bit more like I want to. You know, like what goes through your brain. What has your debate been, internally at least?

Andrew Keller: 3:28

Sure, yeah, I mean, it's always been a logical, you know, pros and cons list for me. So you know, cfan is the best job I've had so far and I like the nine to five structure. I like the opportunities I've got. You know, if I'm freelance, I know I have to work harder to get clients to build my own gear, to really rely on myself, where I've got to do some really cool stuff at the ministry I work with. That I wouldn't have gotten to do if I was freelance, like traveling, like playing with a lot of cool toys. You know we've built a 10 camera studio and it's awesome. I got to, I got to do a lot of cool stuff. So it's, it's balancing. You know whether I'm, you know, consistent money, but maybe a little bit less versus freelance.

Vipul Bindra: 4:11

So I definitely think I want to go freelance, um, but it's, yeah, like you said, working out you know how I can make that happen and you know, not losing income at some point it's chicken and the egg I got to, or you know, yeah, exactly, and that's like, like I said, somebody who's done that. Like I said, it was one of the, um, uh, hardest decisions. Yeah, you know to leave uh, but I my my job wasn't in video, so it's somewhat easier because you know you're at least doing something which you like.

Vipul Bindra: 4:38

So, uh, and I was, like you know, struggling mentally because I'm like I hate this job, I, I'm not happy. But then it's paying all the bills, and then you know you have benefits and insurance and all that. So it's a, it's an inherent risk that you're taking because you're like, oh, I'm going to give everything up just so I can potentially make more money. Right, and luckily, obviously worked out. But I know a lot of people hasn't worked out for you. So you have to be smart about it. But at some point you have to take a leap of faith, because if I didn't I wouldn't be here today, right. So, but I get it, but I get that you're being logical about it. You're also kind of trying to, you know, make sure you don't make a wrong move.

Andrew Keller: 5:25

Because you know you got a life going on and you don't want to have a reduction in income. A little bit of it's like I've never had any formal training. I didn't go to full sail or something, I've just the YouTube university. Everything I've learned was either making mistakes and watching videos. So for me, working at the ministry I work with in video production has been a really good opportunity to try stuff and, you know, learn with a team setting. So you know, before I tried to do freelance photography and, like I said, I did some bad weddings and I did some good work and stuff in there. But it was a struggle and especially the business side is something that I am so not into Creative side, technical side I got it down. But you know, the ministry has been a really great opportunity for me to, yeah, learn a lot what would?

Vipul Bindra: 6:08

what would make you say that these, those are bad weddings? What'd you do to screw it up that bad?

Andrew Keller: 6:13

well, yeah, I just there was a lot of things I didn't realize. You know, doing weddings, you gotta be on the ball. You gotta you know predict what's gonna happen next. You know that's their one shot to get the kiss, and if you miss it, that's it. So there's just a lot of stuff I had to learn.

Vipul Bindra: 6:29

Yeah, it is tough. I've never done a wedding so I don't want to speak on it, but from talking to enough people that do them for a living, I do think it's easy as far as technicality goes, but it's very hard because, like you said, you have to be able to predict, you have to be able to be at the right moment, because it's only going to happen once. Most of the time you can't just replicate a moment and if you miss it then you're missing the whole reason. You're there to capture their memories and emotions and whatever for their future, so they can come back and watch it. So like.

Andrew Keller: 7:10

I said it's easy and hard at the same time. So I get it, especially if you're new. You know you don't know where to be and and where to position yourself. To get that moment, and especially early on, it was I'm learning what I'm doing and I'm not a people person by nature, I'm. I'm an introvert a hundred percent. So learning the technical side while also learning to, you know, put myself out there and kind of be in charge of a situation like it was, it was a lot to learn all at once yeah, I could get that, but the good thing is, you're following it's a very similar path.

Vipul Bindra: 7:29

I've talked to a lot of people, um, who have gotten to video this way, that they just wanted to help their local church, um, and you know, through that they learned and fallen, fell in love with doing video, because, you know, that is part of what churches need, especially after the pandemic. I remember, uh, you know, I was in alabama, which is there's a church like literally every five steps, so, but, like, a lot of them were struggling because, you know, some were doing video, obviously, but a lot of them were not. And then immediately it's like, oh no, you got to go virtual everything, and if you don't, you know, uh, you're gonna lose your congregation to some other church or whatever, and they don't want to do that, right, so so it was like I, I saw the panic, uh, firsthand. Uh, people had to, like, really, really catch up to technology, so, but, but people like you are very necessary because you are the bridge, right, you're, you're the gap that's between the viewers and the message, right, but that's one way to learn video production, yeah, so, and, like I said, it's a path I've seen a lot of people follow, but the negative side of it is, you know, you don't make that much money, yeah, so you're doing something fun, you're playing, and I've seen the sea fans at a beautiful place.

Vipul Bindra: 8:48

Like you said, the lot, I love those control rooms and everything that you guys have built. It's pretty cool, yeah, but then on the other side, like I said, it's not going to pay you as well as what you can make just being even a cam op, right, um, so, so, so, uh. So what's your path? Like, what are you thinking now? Uh, are you cause, like I said, you have a cool studio you work in, you get to travel the world. Where, how, how and when do you see this freelance thing happening?

Andrew Keller: 9:16

That's a. That's an excellent question. Yeah, I mean, like I said before, it's a bit of a chicken and the egg situation. You know, I gotta, I gotta jump ship to be available, but can't jump ship until you know, I have some income there.

Andrew Keller: 9:26

So, man, I'm just trying to say yes to everything at the moment. You know, uh, you mentioned quentin. I've done a lot with him. Um, we're doing more work in the next couple weeks and, yeah, I'm just really taking everything I can to hopefully build some connections and make some extra income on the side and then, you know, hopefully, as that continues to grow, at some point I'll be able to, you know, at least replace enough income that I can jump. And exactly no, you've helped me uh.

Vipul Bindra: 9:50

Every time you've come out and helped me, uh, in any of the gigs that I have, it's been great. I love the footage that you're capturing. You you definitely have an eye uh, especially the types of shoot you've helped me. I don't think we've done a uh uh like a shoot where we got to light and everything, yet I think all they have been event shoots, which is here's the crazy part. I say it's uh, event shoots are easier again, because you know we don't have to like light and it's not that complicated, but you have to be at the right spot, you have to get the moment.

Vipul Bindra: 10:21

And if you don't get the moment, you know, then then you miss it because it's live, or it's an event like uh, very rarely can you just ask them to redo, like at the last one where I, I still remember what was it that we missed? Uh, um, the halftime the? No, no, we got the halftime. No, we missed the. The pledge of allegiance, oh, yeah, yeah yeah, because we were we were.

Vipul Bindra: 10:43

We were filming something and we, we, we got and we got it and we moved to a different location. We were like, oh, we're supposed to be capturing that, can anyone run to it? And it's like no, kia Center is huge, we are not going to make it in time. The good thing is it's a small piece the whole video so it wasn't like the end of the world, but it could be if it was a wedding or something like that. Yeah, so, but no, but you've done great and I always love to have you and I know, quinton, you're doing a lot of stuff with him, and he's also very much into the type of stuff you like which is live His studio.

Vipul Bindra: 11:15

Have you been there?

Andrew Keller: 11:15

Yeah, what'd you think? I was just there yesterday.

Vipul Bindra: 11:17

Yeah, it's coming along great. Yeah, going to partner a lot on it. I know he wanted to you to be on the website and everything, so how do you, how do you, do you think that is?

Andrew Keller: 11:29

the now, the moment.

Vipul Bindra: 11:29

Uh, yeah, I mean may propel you eventually to to go?

Andrew Keller: 11:31

I really hope so. Yeah, um, I've been debating for a while trying to figure out. Like you know, you're at a really high scale. You're running a full-on production company and a lot of people at the last meet are kind of in that same vein of trying to go out and be their own boss and I don't know if that's for me. I really like partnering with other people. I like not being the guy that the client looks at. So if I can partner with someone like Quinn or you or there's a guy named Matt Yancey I don't know if you've met him, no, not yet If I can partner with more people like that and get enough business, I think that's really what I want to go. I love the technical side. I love the stuff I do.

Vipul Bindra: 12:11

So if I can kind of push away from the clients a little bit, that's kind of more on my speed. So you're more like the doer right. You want to be holding the camera sound live whatever you don't want to be doing business.

Andrew Keller: 12:18

But that's the crazy thing, that's what I've been saying. We got to do it someday, yeah.

Vipul Bindra: 12:22

I remember us having this conversation. I was like, look, the crazy part is and there's nothing wrong, so you can make a really good career as a DP.

Andrew Keller: 12:31

And to be real.

Vipul Bindra: 12:32

It's actually very cost effective Because as long as you buy one good camera package maybe a B camera, but typically that's all you need the investment amount is low comparatively to a production company.

Andrew Keller: 12:41

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra: 12:47

And then you highly market yourself as the cam op, dp. You there, you can make good money, yeah right. And then the the good thing is you're not as much dealing with direct clients and clients, you're dealing with production companies or um, um, I don't know um agencies or things like that. Right, so you can I mean you still have do networking.

Vipul Bindra: 13:02

I don't think there's any way to get away from boots on the ground, handshakes, but it's not as involved and that's one way of making a career and you can. But again you hit a ceiling Because the ceiling is whatever your day rate is that you set.

Vipul Bindra: 13:17

And obviously you can slowly increase it, but it's that times 365. That's the max money you can make and that's the max money you can make. And that's the negative of, I think, the dp came off life, came up life, because you have a maximum ceiling and nobody's working 365 days right most people are working.

Vipul Bindra: 13:34

I don't know a couple hundred if that, uh so. So there is a ceiling. But again, if it's higher than what you're making now and you're happy, then that could be a path right, and then it's not as as time consuming, at least, that you have to be on meetings. You know long, long meetings.

Andrew Keller: 13:50

I don't enjoy the management side, even a little bit. I mean, that's kind of where I'm at at the ministry. I'm doing everything except management and I don't want it. I don't want to be in any more meetings. So yeah, I mean if I can do what I'm doing now and make more income. That sounds great to me.

Vipul Bindra: 14:07

So if hypothetically the ministry was doubled your pay, you wouldn't go freelance.

Andrew Keller: 14:13

I don't know That'd be a tough one right, yeah, I mean, it's all about like I'm really logical. I'm just ticking boxes. You know, and you know the ministry does a lot for me.

Vipul Bindra: 14:26

Really, the only one is the money, yeah. So so tell me a little bit about this gig. So I know you're here because you need uh something to rent, sure, but uh, what's the gig that you're going on? How do you find these freelance gigs? Because, you know you're still freelancing, by the way, so it's not like you have a full-time gig and that's all you're doing no because, like I said, you've helped me.

Vipul Bindra: 14:42

Now you're, you have a shoot going on, I know, and okay, it's not happened, so I don't know how much you could talk about it. But uh, tell me a little bit about the, the freelance opportunities that you're finding, and how are you finding them?

Andrew Keller: 14:53

yeah, I mean, it's all just word of mouth, talking to friends, meeting people and stuff. So I'm about to go do a wedding and, uh, the guy that booked me, I'm second shooting video for him. He is a very creative guy, not quite as technical, so he's bringing me on to be the technical guy, so he's going to follow His wife is the photographer. They're going to follow the couple, they're going to get all the cinematic stuff and I'm there to capture the ceremony. Make sure we get the speeches, get the audio.

Vipul Bindra: 15:18

All of that More technical stuff which makes sense. That's a perfect second shooter.

Andrew Keller: 15:21

It's exactly what I want to be doing. He can worry about the couple, he can make them happy. He can make them look good. I'll make sure it's solid, perfect that.

Vipul Bindra: 15:29

That sounds like a perfect combo. So how many weddings have you done? Is this your?

Andrew Keller: 15:33

this is the second, I've done video for I know you did photos, yeah, I did you know 10 or 15 enough to realize that I don't want to do weddings, but video this is my second.

Vipul Bindra: 15:44

Second one Are you looking at anything you learned from the first one, where you're like I'm going to do this or I'm not going to do this or anything?

Andrew Keller: 15:54

Definitely shot too much. The first wedding. Yeah, Back to my photo. I just filled every card. I took everything and then, whatever, I'll figure it out in post I'll just do all the weeding. That's what I do with video and I realized I just shot way, way, way too much. I need to be more intentional and I actually I feel like that's something the ministry has helped me with. I'm the shooter and I'm the editor and I've done a lot of different stuff for the ministry.

Vipul Bindra: 16:20

I've done events, I've done stand-ups, I've done podcasts, so I definitely now have a better eye for shooting, um, so I feel like I can be more efficient okay, no, that makes sense and that's pretty cool that you're finding opportunities like that, um, you know, because, plus, the thing is, you can then try out different shoots. So when you do go full-time freelance or whatever, you'll know, hey, this is, um, I don't know my, your kind of, you know shoots or whatever. This is what you specialize in, uh, because, um, but in general, live is pretty good too, which is what you like yeah um, have you done anything av related?

Andrew Keller: 16:57

that's not for the ministry no, I mean the first one I did with you. Yeah, the gig for the car company yeah um, that's, that's been it and some stuff with Quentin. I've done two or three things with him.

Vipul Bindra: 17:09

Is it similar or is it different to go for ministry versus other projects For live production?

Andrew Keller: 17:16

it's very similar. Actually, I feel like the more shoot and edit side, the regular video production is way more different. Like I noticed the gig we just did, yeah, um, a lot of the shots that we're getting were very similar. And I it's an event, I've done lots of events, I get it but your whole thing was like doing interviews on the spot man on the street, and that's like, oh I I don't do that everybody I talk to is like you know an evangelist.

Andrew Keller: 17:40

They know how to talk. I don't have to coach them, I just point a camera and they go, and it's perfect.

Vipul Bindra: 17:45

I never do more than one or two takes so with this, it's definitely something I have to learn different and it's very important because you have to get the bite out right. It's very different. I get that, yeah, so sometimes even with what we're doing. So we like to get bites to build a story around the event, Because anyone can make a montage.

Andrew Keller: 18:03

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra: 18:03

And plus my thing is, those are useless.

Vipul Bindra: 18:08

Think from a brand's perspective. Right, you have a huge event going on, you take some photos of the day and you put them to some music. Sure, people will look at it, maybe like it. That's it. Yeah, it didn't really achieve anything, but what we're trying to do is get them something that can, uh, tell a message, tell a story, and that the most stories very hyper. What they want to tell, right, it's not just also what is cool, it's also what. What's getting the messaging out that we want to be getting out, whether that's pleasing the sponsors, whether that's, um, um, you know, inviting, making the next year's event bigger, whatever that they can use to show people like, hey, next year let's get bigger sponsorship. So, whatever they have an agenda is what I'm saying. Yeah, so soundbites help us get that out.

Vipul Bindra: 18:53

But the thing is a lot of time we're talking straight to people who are not comfortable in camera, who've never been on camera, or you know they get awkward, or they don't know what to say, or they'll say it, but they'll say it with a bunch of other stuff that we don't need. So you have to kind of coach them, like you said, and you have to get the bite out of them. But then you have to think from the edit perspective. That's what makes you way more effective, because then you have to go, oh, will this actually work in the edit? Will this fit into a storyline or will this do something? Will this fit into a storyline or will this do something? Cause, you know, sure, they say this event is cool. Sure, but what, how does that fit into the edit? Right, we have to be able to go oh, this is what I did, this is what I enjoyed. Now we can show B roll of that. Right, you have to think from the, the edit perspective.

Vipul Bindra: 19:38

And when you do put that together where, where it makes sense, people love our recap videos. I've shown you, obviously, a few examples because you filmed them. I'm like this is what we're trying to make. Our clients absolutely go bonkers for these recap videos because, like I said, they're different, even though they're saying it's just, you know technically, uh, b-roll to montage with some sound bites in it, technically speaking, but it's the, the way it's cut together and the way the story flows. Generally, like I said, clients love it. It helps them do way more than just have something to post right about the event. So that's pretty cool. So it's good to hear your perspective. So next one when you do, what do you think you're going to do different, or how are you going to change about it? Or I don't know how are you going to change about it, or I don't know how are you going to approach it.

Vipul Bindra: 20:24

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just going to be practice makes perfect you know, getting more comfortable coming up with questions and kind of feeling it out yeah, yeah, I think that my favorite thing is just listen to them. So what I'll generally say is hey, tell me more, right, and let them talk. And then generally most people will talk, talk, talk, and then they'll give you the golden line right, yeah? And you just talk to them until they do. And then I'm generally like ooh, I love what you said. Can you say that again?

Vipul Bindra: 20:52

And that's, I know, is where I'm getting my bite, because it'll be much harder to pull that out from that convoluted sentence. Whatever they said, said yeah, but if I tell them to repeat it, they even usually get excited. They're like, oh, they want to use whatever I'm saying. So they generally want to do it. Yeah, I'm saying most people, uh, the hardest thing I find is actually so the way uh, for context, for people who are not, who haven't been to one of my events, where you're getting these sound bites but I want them to be in an interview fashion. So the hardest thing actually is I find that you know you have to get the bite where they're looking off camera, but it's just you, it's not like you have a separate interviewer, so you have to somehow either hold the camera away or put your hand out and let them make eye contact where you want them to make eye contact. To me, that's the the hardest part. What do you think about that?

Andrew Keller: 21:42

I didn't find it too hard. I mean, I was on the gimbal, so it's a little bit easier. I just kind of had it on my hip and it worked out all right, okay, yeah right, because that can be uh confusing.

Vipul Bindra: 21:50

For somewhere I've been like yeah, I don't know, make sure they look off angle and you'd be amazed. Sometimes I get people who are like they still don't get it. I get sound bites and they're looking at camera. So our option is oh, either somehow fit it where we don't show the visual, or that whole footage is toast because you know it doesn't work because it looks weird. Most people, when they look at camera and they're not camera trained, they look weird. You know, and you don't want that.

Andrew Keller: 22:15

The most annoying part was, you know, I had someone looking at me and I had the camera set and I'd go and they were talking and I would glance over just at the screen and they're like, oh, he looked and then they moved and it's like uh see, here's what I do.

Vipul Bindra: 22:28

I always tell them hey, even if I look away, make sure you keep maintain eye contact, that's that's a good note.

Vipul Bindra: 22:34

Yeah, no, that's that happens. That happens even in interviews. So we'll do a lot of you know, uh, and I gotta bring you to one of those, so uh, where I am basically um filming and uh, we're doing like a talking head right, like an interview, and same thing. I'll tell them like, hey, just maintain eye contact at me. But you know I'm doing usually it's just me and maybe an assistant, so it's like a small crew. So I have to sometimes look down at audio or look at the monitor or something you know, make sure it's recording, nothing's failed or whatever.

Vipul Bindra: 23:03

But, like you said, they'll get distracted. That's their opportunity to start looking everywhere or look where I'm looking. So I always I'm like, hey, I may look down for a second if I do, which I try not to, but you know you have to. So I'm like, try to maintain eye contact here because, like you said, they're going to, they're going to go everywhere, they're going, gonna follow you. So it can be a challenge. But but that's the good thing is, once you nail these simple skills down, uh, conference industry is huge in orlando.

Vipul Bindra: 23:30

You can make a lot of money just doing events yeah because you could just be out, you know, and uh, and even as a cam op it's pretty decent day rate, um. But if you're like um, you know, if you wanted to talk to clients, you can charge huge money.

Vipul Bindra: 23:45

I know people charge 15, 20, 30 Ks for like a week long conference which is huge Because you know, once you pay your second shooter, you can still be left with a lot of money. So it's a lot more profitable, I'm saying, unlike other videos where you have to do cinematic stuff. It's a lot cheaper to do conferences and there's so much money in it. But again, then you're dealing with clients, you're finding clients. Um, it can get complicated obviously real fast, but there's potential to make money for sure, yeah, so so tell me um, a little bit about, um, live production.

Vipul Bindra: 24:18

So, from a ministry side of it, what are they looking for? And, uh, who would be right for it? So, let's say, somebody is thinking about it, because that's, I think, a very good start, right, they want to get into live, or they just want to get into video, and then maybe I would submit to low skill, because I do think people should improve their craft first. I think it's a good opportunity to help your local church or whoever, um and uh, not only are you gaining skills, you're helping out, helping them too, right, so how would be what, who, how, what would be a good way, I'm saying, to approach um that type of opportunity?

Andrew Keller: 24:53

sure. I mean I think for like for a smaller, medium-sized church. A lot of it is like everybody's done everything at this point. So find a church that you like the style of and look around like see what cameras are using. You know Blackmagic cameras are really easy to operate for volunteers. I like the Sony look better, but we use Blackmagic a lot because it's really simple. So if you need think about volunteer-friendly things, you know the Atom switchers. You can program the StreamDecks. They're phenomenal.

Andrew Keller: 25:25

I love companion I can tinker around all day long and make it so that anybody can walk up and it's easy to read, easy to operate. So think about ways and systems that you can put in place to make it easy for volunteers because, let's be honest, it's all going to be volunteer operation but then it's just watching a lot of content and figuring out the look you want and then trial and error trying to get that going. But I wouldn't try to overcomplicate it too fast. You can start with two cameras and then grow to a third and it's easy to continue adding once you master a skill much and you've never mastered anything and now you're. Well, I spent all this money, I have six cameras and it's never a good product.

Andrew Keller: 26:08

It's way better to start slow master it and then evolve over time, because people are going to see that, oh, it's getting better and better. Nobody's going to hop on a stream and go well, there's six cameras, it's great, oh, but the shots are shaky and camera ops are bad and and and those cameras are incredible.

Vipul Bindra: 26:22

You can get them sub 1k easily. Yeah, market it's and they they look really good. Now again, I do think uh, sony's a better investment if you're doing to do corporate and commercial video. Yeah, but for live black magic are great and my favorite thing is now again we use sony's. But anytime I have used black magic still connect to the atem and you can control a lot of the camera functions from the ATEM, which can be really good. I don't have, to like with the Sonys, I'm on a headset telling the operator, hey, can you do this, that, whatever. But with like ATEM and the Blackmagic cameras we can do most things from the switcher.

Vipul Bindra: 26:57

So I don't even have to reach out to the operator to fix the colors or whatever. Right, yeah, and I like that's one of my favorite things and like so the cost effectiveness. I think who was it um quentin again, I think, who was telling me he got like two or so broadcasts for like a couple grand or whatever yeah, I'm like that's crazy and it's phenomenal image quality.

Vipul Bindra: 27:17

Yeah, exactly so so, like I said, the demand isn't really high. If you're going to do corporate and commercial videos, if you're doing your own, I guess you can use them because it doesn't matter, and if an client doesn't care, then they're good cameras. It's only when you're going to go join other agencies I think you're better off with sony because the demand is high, right and you'll. You'll just find gigs because you're an fx3, fx6 operator or whatever, or a venice operator or something like that. But again, for your own stuff or live, I think Blackmagic are really good. The market is flooded with them. Used market is huge and, like I said, there's advantages to just being in their ecosystem anyway. And, like you said, they're also very easy to operate. I love on the Pocket, especially the menu system. It's very easy, it's so simple you don't.

Vipul Bindra: 28:05

Yeah, as long as you understand your exposure triangle, you can pretty much do it like the, the. You don't have to learn the camera per se. You're not finding it. Plus, black magic, raw um, I think that's really good too. If somebody does want to do raw, uh, I think, uh, the, the compression and and the workflow is really good, yeah, and it works very well with the Resolve. So I think the whole thing right, it's like a whole ecosystem.

Andrew Keller: 28:29

It's a really good package.

Vipul Bindra: 28:30

Yeah, that works, and a lot of it is cheap. The Resolve is free, so I mean you can't beat it right.

Andrew Keller: 28:36

I'm sad. Up until this point, Blackmagic has been really good about even their CinemaLine Works, really really well for live production, but now with the pixis we lost the atom control and the ursa. The 12k full frame, not dude that sensor is so cool but it doesn't work for live production yeah, that's kind of upsetting.

Andrew Keller: 28:55

Yeah, but 12k, I don't even know when we need it for live well, it's such a cool sensor because it's um, I don't remember all the technical terms, but it can do 12k, 8k and 4k natively out of the sensor. So it you don't have to shoot 12k all the time. You know, with a red or even the sony's, if you want to crop into a lower resolution you're losing size. But this can natively do 12k, 8k or 4k. You can shoot 4k b-roll right out of it like it's perfect yeah, that's so crazy.

Vipul Bindra: 29:24

Yeah, I think they're using some kind of uh, I think pixels like bin together and work together, something like that. Again, I don't understand the technology, but, yes, the way they were doing it instead of a two by two exactly, and then they can. They can just kind of bin them together and uh, so that it's that way, it's not cropping in and it's still raw, which is again very incredible technology. But again, on the other side, the demand yeah, it's it's.

Vipul Bindra: 29:49

It went to what? 5k or something like that started at 12k, which was already low. But again, I think the reason that is simple, the truth being the other side of it. I don't think there's any demand for it and that's why I think they've dropped the price so much, considerably, which is is huge, by the way, 5k or whatever you can buy this for, wow, I mean just to think about it. But again, I think that's why the price is so low is I don't think that many productions are using it.

Vipul Bindra: 30:17

I have, in the last two years, I can count on single hand any time a camera was used that was not either sony or ari, right, and and and most times was it was red, and that too, like the quality sucked, because nowadays the you know I'm talking they were dsmc2 type of reds, right, um and uh, and they were. I was like they're not keeping up, because you know they were really good when they came out. I own a couple myself, but uh, with the way the technology's moved, uh, I don't think they're keeping up, uh as as well. So they're, they're losing ground, is what I'm saying. Uh, so it's either it's the sony or uh re in the, the high end is captured, the whole market. So if you're trying to play into the corporate commercial market, I don't, I don't know how much work you'll find if you show up as like hey, I'm a DP with my 12K or sub package, I don't know how many commercials will be like yep, that's what we need.

Vipul Bindra: 31:14

You know what I mean. Unless they are trying to hyper, do like something for Apple Vision.

Andrew Keller: 31:18

You know what I mean.

Vipul Bindra: 31:20

We are something hyper specific I don't think you're going to find, but again it has use cases. Think about now I'm saying it myself Apple Vision. It'd be really cool to make it with that 12K sensor. But again, I'm saying, outside of those hyper-specific examples, it's not good to stay in that system For sure. So it's kind of like don't know, uh, I mean, talk about our youtuber that we were talking about. Uh, lioness tech tips.

Vipul Bindra: 31:49

You were in the hat we were talking about before. I think he. I saw a video years ago when they came out he bought like five, six of them and then they didn't work in their own work got rid of them so fast exactly, and that was a huge loss for them.

Vipul Bindra: 32:01

So that's what I'm saying like they don't fit in the workflow for most people, even though the camera may be incredible. Uh, so, like I said, my advice to people would be again, unless you're doing live, stick to sony. Yeah, sadly, it's just again a better roi, and that's only I'm saying not because sony's better is because it'll pay for itself faster.

Andrew Keller: 32:22

Yeah, I mean especially in our world. You know we all love tech, so Sony is easy enough to learn Really. My only recommendation is for Blackmagic for volunteers. It's so easy to operate, it is good image quality, it is low budget. It's a great option for a church, you know for instance but I mean, I prefer the look of the Sonys, I prefer the workflow. The autofocus is phenomenal. You know the FX6 with the ND life-changing, Exactly.

Vipul Bindra: 32:49

No, but you have a very good point and I'm even saying like, if you're doing narrative movies or you're like an indie movie filmmaker and it's your movies, as long as it's your project, you don't have to go fit in somebody else's workflow. Blackmagic are incredible. I'd buy a um, like you said, uh, pixis or even a arsa or something like that, uh, way over and way earlier than anything, sony, because then you know you don't have to worry about what anyone, anyone else, is using or wants you to use, because with that be raw, with the, the resolve workflow, everything, I think you can get a better image out of it for a lot less money. That money can be put into other tools, uh, so you know the investment will be better payoff. But that's the only scenario.

Vipul Bindra: 33:33

Or, like you said, for churches, where they just need bodies. They just mean, or they're doing a podcast or whatever, they just need five bodies. It doesn't matter. You know if it's sony or not, um, but yeah, so that's. That's pretty cool, um, that you know these options even exist for people. Can you imagine, like in the past, like buying a sub 1k camera and used that had that phenomenal image quality?

Vipul Bindra: 33:57

and lenses are cheap too, because I think micro four third kind of died yeah. Um, I loved it.

Vipul Bindra: 34:02

By the way, I I used gh4s, you know I'm so excited, so that was what 2014 15 whenever gh4 came out, that that was incredible camera for the time and I I bought one immediately right and I loved it. Uh, but now I feel like, even though I know they've they released g7 or whatever, I think micro four thirds kind of dying or dead. So but the again. The advantage is market is flooded with lenses. If you want to buy native lenses, I think you can find really good deals on them. Olympus, I think, died too, the whole, you know micro four thirds and it's easy to adapt so you can always grow into a system.

Vipul Bindra: 34:41

Exactly. You can start with E with ef lenses, which are really cheap, and canon made in amazing ef lenses. Uh, so, yeah. So the point is cost wise. It's just incredible.

Vipul Bindra: 34:54

You can adapt or you can just buy native micro four third lenses for really cheap on the used market yeah and go start making amazing images, which is what it's about, um, or just doing live, and there's so much money in it. By the way, I've been doing live since 2020 and I've I do. I would say about 30 40 percent of my work is still live, um, and we do a ton of it. And, funny enough, I do want to talk the other side of it. I don't know if you've done that yet. Have you done any remote remote producer thing? We do that a lot now.

Vipul Bindra: 35:23

So, uh, that is a huge thing. So another place where ATEMs now you can do this without an ATEM. I still prefer ATEMs. So there's a huge demand now where people don't even fly in. So they'll be like hey, we have clients that we need to capture an interview with, or we need to do a three-person round table with four cameras or three cameras or something like that. That's a very common request, and you can find these gigs all over the country and the client may not even be in the same state, right? So all they want is you to send them a remote feed. So, technically, not live, but you kind of run it live.

Vipul Bindra: 35:59

And it's such an easy setup to have something like.

Vipul Bindra: 36:02

So I think everyone should own an ATEM even if you're not doing live I love this ATEM extreme Cause what I all I have to do is plug the cameras in and even my cameras, like. Obviously, sdi version may be better, but since we are using FX sixes and FX threes, this works better because all our cameras have HDMIs, even the FX sixes, so we can plug them all in, do a quick little multi-view of three camera, four camera, you know in the software and, bam our way, can send it out to a remote producer. And they love it because if you do the old method of, you know, using Cam Links or OBS, or whatever.

Vipul Bindra: 36:40

I mean you could do it, but then you have dongles everywhere and then also you know more points of failure, plus a lot of times you can just send one, because most people only have one in their arsenal, and then the client's only seeing the wide cam, they're not seeing the tight cams. You know what I mean. The overall experience you can provide them is so much better and they love it because you know they're not there. So any information you give them is valuable. So them being able to see all the angles, them being able to see the colors or the exposure, whatever being able to hear, is incredible. And it's so easy to do with these ATEMs Like five minutes of setup.

Andrew Keller: 37:22

At most it's eliminated a whole workbox with stuff in one device, exactly.

Vipul Bindra: 37:29

And it's so easy, easy and also, like that, they can convert. I've only had once an issue where we threw a signal into it and, uh, the um, the extreme, the mini extreme. I still couldn't read it as in but generally they have converters in them too, that they can. They are rather as a converter, they're scalers, so as in, if you throw like a wrong frame rate into it, like you throw a 60, with a 30 and a 25, it can easily manage that.

Vipul Bindra: 37:50

In the past that was a pain. So I started with television studio HD. They couldn't do that, but you had to make sure with a decimator or something you were sending it the exact frame rate. But you don't have to do that now. I mean, you get it relatively right, throw the, throw your hdmi's in and it just kind of works. Yeah, and and as dp um, I highly recommend it is what I'm saying.

Vipul Bindra: 38:13

If you cannot offer remote production capabilities, which is a lot of productions nowadays, it makes you uh, easily be able to stand out and, like I said, it's nothing extra for me. We were going to do the shoot anyway. If I just can throw a couple of HDMIs in and send the client a feed, I don't know why that's a big deal to me, right, yeah, and. But you would be amazed how many people are not doing that yet. So I highly recommend people you know who are listening, just go buy yourself an ATEM. I mean, and it doesn't have to be the extreme, you could just buy the mini pros or whatever, right, just four channels. I don't think you're. You're rarely doing multicam more than four. I'm talking where you'd have remote stuff, obviously for churches you probably need more.

Andrew Keller: 38:57

I mean for versatility sake. I would almost even recommend the extreme, Like we were talking about dual USB-Cs, so you can send to the laptop with webcam and USB record at the same time.

Vipul Bindra: 39:06

Very smart. Yes, exactly. And then they make the SDI version too.

Andrew Keller: 39:10

So you can multi-view and program.

Vipul Bindra: 39:13

Exactly, and if you're only using SDI cameras, I would program exactly, and if you're only using sdi cameras, I would even recommend that, because I think it's even more output. Yeah, uh, the only reason I don't have the sdi is because, like I was saying, I only I. We use fx3s and fx6s, right, so it helps. I wish they would make a like a hybrid version.

Vipul Bindra: 39:29

That'd be really cool so yeah, we had like, uh, you know, half hdmi, kind of like television studio hd again. I love that because it was for sti and for hdmi. That to me would be instant buy because then we can do sti directly from fx6s instead of having to use hdmi because hdmi is not a reliable connector. Yeah, but anyway. But there's these things like see, so it's live. I don't think it's just for people doing live. There's a lot more benefits in learning something like atem, because I think even dps can really get their money's worth by being able to do this remote producer thing so in that scenario, are you the one leading the interview or is it the remote producer?

Vipul Bindra: 40:15

it depends. So, yeah, if it's an interview, I've had that where the remote producer is leading it. But sometimes you know, I'm saying like you're doing like a round table where nobody's leading anything because you know it's probably moderators part of it or some kind of conference or something.

Vipul Bindra: 40:28

Uh, the main thing is that they get a feed. It's kind of like sending, like I said, live, but you're sending the multi-view out yeah, pretty much to, instead of like the program. You send the multi-view out yeah, pretty much to, instead of like the program, you send the multi-view out and generally Excel do the four by the quad view, basically multi-view, because at most, like I said, typically three to four cameras and basically what you're doing is giving them the opportunity to observe what's happening without while they're not here. Gotcha, right, and you send HDMI audio out to one of the feeds and that's their audio feed, so they also hear live audio, so they can kind of comment on that. It just makes it easier. Think of this way, right, like I have done that too, where I've been the remote producer. So what I'll hire? I'll give you an example. Some client reaches out and they say, okay, we need to do a video, we'll do interview with one executive in chicago, one in san francisco, one in orlando, right.

Vipul Bindra: 41:23

And then it's like, sure, and what's the budget? So if it's like a good budget, let's say they said 20 grand. I was like, okay, perfect, I'll fly to all three cities. Well, I'm in local orlando. The other two we can fly, we can make it perfect, we'll bring all the gear. Now they go out of the budget is like eight grand. Now you can't, you don't have the budget to fly with gear and everything.

Vipul Bindra: 41:38

So then you offer, okay, awesome, we'll do it with a remote team. So you hire somebody local to go run that interview, but I want to make sure the framing, everything is perfect. So I will ask that, hey, can you send me the feed through Zoom or whatever, and that way I can make sure it matches. So I'm saying I can even be the remote producer and now I can make sure the shot I did in Orlando matches the other team. Right, it's as simple as that. And then, like I said, if I wanted to, I can even conduct it with the client. Yeah, and then the other side is when I'm the production company that some other production companies hiring, same thing. I'm sending them the remote feed because they can just A remote feed because they can just a just watch it. A lot of times it's just that you know if you're doing the correct stuff. But then a lot of time they can have just some input like, hey, I don't like that plant in the back, or I don't like this or whatever, and then it's very easy for us to fix now, then later, and that's what I'm saying.

Vipul Bindra: 42:28

I've had other people that do remote producer stuff. They only send the main cam out, like the wide cam or whatever, and I highly recommend doing this way because I love it, because they can a see the whole production and they can comment on the tight cameras and stuff. You don't want, um, anything in the in the back end to go, oh we this, we don't like this or whatever. Right it's, it's so much easier to fix in the moment. So it has multiple advantages a, they just want it nowadays, like especially if they're not flying it, which is a common thing now Budgets are getting lower and lower, you're expected to do more. And two, it just, like I said, eliminates that gap of they don't know what you're doing type of thing. They see exactly what the final frame looks like and, like I said on your side, if it sounds like a lot, it's not Because once you set it up.

Vipul Bindra: 43:16

It's set up. You're not messing with the ATEM, it's not like you're live switching or anything. You're just sending the Momomotivio out and if you're smart, you can even set it up from your home before you leave. So it's all. All the settings are set. You just plug in, you send and, and it's pretty good. And one of my favorite things again, we're gonna now make this all about AT. So one of the things on the extreme is, on this side you can actually select what you're sending on the output one, which is what we're doing here. And then my favorite thing with that is so you can technically typically I'll leave it on multi-view right like this, so they'll get the multi-view. But then if they're like, oh, I want to see one camera in in detail, I can actually go to multiple different cameras so I can actually zoom without like doing too much effort. I can show them a zoomed in view out of the proper view frame of each camera individually and then go back to multi-view right, so they can look in detail if they wanted to.

Vipul Bindra: 44:09

And it's so easy to do. Like I said, it's just pressing a button, like once you play with this it's actually very easy. It looks daunting but it's not. And then, um, and, like I said, it's very easy, it works the workflow perfectly. It's better, I think, product than the other options which would be, like I said, a cam link, maybe obs, the other way of doing it. Yeah, I think this is a much easier solution and it has internal live streaming capabilities too. So if they wanted it, usually we'll send it to you through Zoom, but I'm saying if they wanted it sent on Vimeo or YouTube or whatever. Technically we can directly, through the device, plug an Ethernet and send them the feed that way too, without even needing a computer. I've had such bad luck with that Really.

Andrew Keller: 44:57

I know so many people that that's their thing, they stream out the Ethernet every time. It's failed on me Really Half the time I've tried it.

Vipul Bindra: 45:03

I don't want to jinx it.

Andrew Keller: 45:04

That's how this podcast goes out, so it hasn't failed yet but yes, I mean yeah, that would be.

Vipul Bindra: 45:11

It's worked for me, Like I've done it multiple times. Obviously, I don't typically do it for client. We use like a bonding, you know a thing? So I use Teradek stuff, but video, no, what's that? Liveu makes good stuff, so there's a lot of yeah. I highly recommend using an encoder if it's a paid project, but I'm saying, if it's like something like that, like where it's not mission critical, it just works directly without any, any input, any extra products. I'm just saying this I think it's a good. What is it Like? I think a thousand bucks right, and you could probably find a cheaper used. I think it's a. It's a really good investment. Even I'm saying as a DP, not, you don't even have to do live production, just as your remote producer unit and, like I said, it'll pay for itself. I mean, half my shoots are that I'm doing with other companies are where they're not flying in anymore it's like god likes that.

Vipul Bindra: 46:06

So, um, I can't imagine not getting the money back the return. It's such a useful yeah plus. Then you can, if you really wanted to not, it may not be for everyone, but if you're like you, where you like it and you love the technical part of it, you can now go into the live world and make more money just doing the live switching and all that other stuff, so you can actually do more with it than just the remote producing.

Andrew Keller: 46:29

We use them a lot at the ministry even when we're not live streaming. So like we'll set it up in the studio when we don't want to use, or even up in the podcast room. You know we'll do a two or three camera podcast and we'll do a live switch just to speed up our edit. You know we'll. What I'll do is I'll record the program in here and then record isos and cameras and then just rebuild it in premiere. But now I have a basic cut already and that just speeds up. You know a whole lot in the editing process.

Vipul Bindra: 46:55

Yeah, and that's the goal with season two. For our podcast, I want to have a remote producer. And live editing is because, again, you know, we're a video production company. This isn't making any revenue. We don't have time to go edit and that's why I didn't do multi-camera this season. But ideally we want to right, because it just makes it more dynamic.

Vipul Bindra: 47:11

And I was like, when we're gonna do that, we're not gonna edit in post, we just going to go live and I'm going to have a producer, just live switch and then we're done and it'll be so easy and, like I said, the device can record, so we'll have the recording already ready to go. We don't have to do anything and it's already switched, it's edited, there's a cut and now, yes, will it be perfect? Maybe not, let's live, yeah, but having seen other live productions, I think it'll be pretty good. And, by the way, people like um, a lot of people go like, hey, how do I make no mistakes? I think there will be mistake. It's live production. But once you see big budget live productions, how many mistakes they have? Like if you pull up grammys or oscars, or and these are huge productions, right, yeah, how many mistakes do they have? You're right and I and I'm pretty sure I don't know if you've ever looked at it that way, but like if I'm watching any, I can just catch up like, oh they, they messed up.

Andrew Keller: 48:08

I can't watch.

Vipul Bindra: 48:08

Yeah right, it's like I know they, they didn't mean to switch that or whatever, and it happens and because you know it's production. So what I'm saying is people also need to be not that hard on themselves.

Andrew Keller: 48:19

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra: 48:19

Like, if major productions with multi-million dollar budgets can mess up, you can mess up a little bit, just don't have major messes. Yeah, but a tiny switch here and there is not the end of the world. It happens.

Andrew Keller: 48:30

Yeah, it's how quick you are at fixing the mistake exactly and learning from mistakes so talk about that.

Vipul Bindra: 48:35

Let's uh go. I, because I'd completely forgotten that you helped me with that live show. How was that? If you remember, we did like a car launch together yeah where we live streamed it, uh, which was incredible to even know that we have a car manufacturer in orlando it was a pretty cool company yeah exactly and then.

Vipul Bindra: 48:52

So how was that experience, if you want to talk about it, how was it different than the ministry's live streams? Obviously, we were launching a car, I think. We had to light it and all that, yeah, so, and we also had to do it live too. It was crazy. It wasn't just on the internet. Their own team was watching it too, so we had to put TVs there so they could watch it and listen to it. We put speakers. The point is, it was like an event production there, but then also it went online and I brought you in as the technical director I think it's the role I called it Essentially just helped me put it together right. I think it was a team of four or five of us or something like that, so I don't know if you remember from it. It's been a while.

Vipul Bindra: 49:29

But how was that experience, and how would you describe it different than the live stuff you had done for the ministry?

Andrew Keller: 49:36

Sure, yeah, different than the live stuff you had done for the, for the ministry. Sure, yeah, for the ministry. Uh, it's never that quick a turnaround. Um, for us it's. It's a much longer stream, you know, say, a whole conference or a whole service or something, and generally we'll be in the day before, two days before. So we have a lot of time to prep, a lot of time to get it dialed in. There's always going to be, you know, the event staff that's doing lighting, projection, whatever we'll hire in something like that. So for me it's a lot more focused and I have a lot more time. It was really interesting. We only had what?

Andrew Keller: 50:04

three hours if that to set up and we were doing all the lighting, we were doing everything.

Vipul Bindra: 50:09

So it was it was really fun actually to have to be that quick and, you know, think on our feet and problem solve quick, quick and it was fun, yeah, and then we we had to bring everything, so we had to load in, set it up and go live in like two or three hours, yeah, and that was the the whole setup time and I think we did great, uh, because you know we also had a problem solve, like you said, because they're like oh, we want these tvs here.

Andrew Keller: 50:32

Oh, so we're gonna run the wireless camera and we didn't have a, a wireless.

Vipul Bindra: 50:35

Yeah. So they didn't tell us about it. So they wanted literally the requirements was hey, we're going to have a camera on tripod. And then when we showed up, they're like, no, we got to show the car, which makes sense, but then why did they book one camera? So I'm like, oh well, we're going to go handheld, right, do what you got to do. And it would have been so simple because the cost wouldn't have been any different. I would have brought a second camera anyway or brought the Teradex anyway. I'm saying so it wasn't the cost factor, it was more like them not being, I guess, prepared or whatever. And it's fine, that was their first live stream.

Vipul Bindra: 51:12

But what's crazy is that was like the purpose behind the van setup now, because I never want that to ever happen again. Now if somebody goes, hey, can we make it wireless, I can be like sure, give me a few minutes, let me go to the van, we could pull it out. We couldn't do that. Then it was like, no, we brought what we needed to bring because we planned it all out. We can't just all of a sudden, you know, go wireless because that's not the plane or anything like that. So, but, but clients will do that to you. Welcome to video production. They will uh just go. Oh, by the way, can we show the interior of the car? We can do this, and they're like uh, are we gonna do that from a tripod?

Andrew Keller: 51:47

like no, we can't. It's so interesting hearing the client perspective. Yeah, they don't know our world, they don't. They just know what they want, and most of the time they don't know what they want until they've seen it and know that, oh, that's not what I want. So it's learning how to translate through whatever they say, figuring out. Okay, actually I need wireless.

Vipul Bindra: 52:06

Yeah, exactly, and, like I said, the good thing is we were able to solve their problem. We just went handheld and I think we did great. I think the footage came out great, the live stream was great and, like I said, in the future my goal personal, was I don't want to have that issue. And then that's not just one example, that happens every shoot. So it's like there's something they'll throw at you, right? So that's what the idea behind the van was.

Vipul Bindra: 52:31

I'm like, if I have 99 of everything right, I still obviously don't carry all my live streaming kit in there, so they can't just go live. They can't tell me, oh, we'll go live, so it doesn't solve all problems. But 99 of the problems with they're like oh, can we throw a frame here or can we make you know? I don't know. Like you said, can we go wireless or there's something like that, or can we have a couple extra mics or things like that, where I can just quickly be like, okay, sure, obviously won't be instantaneous, we still have to go to the van, but it's a lot simpler to go to the van that's probably parked outside their building than to be like, oh, we'll go to our studio and a lot of times you're.

Vipul Bindra: 53:07

You know, it's not even a possibility to come back to the studio to grab something. So that is at least the idea behind it and, um, you know I don't want that to ever happen again in the future. But that was neat. I'm so glad you were there. You were able to see the problems that we had and how we were able to solve them. Uh, but very different than, like I said, ministry that's the stuff I love, though.

Vipul Bindra: 53:29

I love, like I said, building the system, working the problems out like yeah and I still remember I was like oh so you're here as the technical director, now can you become the cable wrangler because, that's what the job changed.

Vipul Bindra: 53:40

Right, because that's what we gotta do, because now we're like hardwired but we're technically mobile, yeah, which is very interesting. I don't typically do that, uh, but but I know in live that is a thing, that that is done as well. But that was interesting for me because normally I would like to say a pterodactyl or something like that, just to resolve that situation, uh. But, like I said, looking back at that stream, it came out incredible. I had such a good time and, uh, I'm so glad you were able to be part of it and, uh, talk about this. Once we're done, I gotta invite you to another shoot.

Vipul Bindra: 54:11

I would love to have you sure um, like I said, it's so fun to to, to do these shoots and to have you on them, and then that's another thing I want to talk about, like work-life balance. So luckily, like I said, you have a full-time job.

Andrew Keller: 54:24

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra: 54:24

But they are very friendly with you doing these freelance work, yeah. So how incredible is it to have that kind of freedom at your job where you can pick up gigs.

Andrew Keller: 54:34

Yeah, I mean it's great. I mean that's like I was talking about earlier, just ticking the boxes. The ministry has been phenomenal being crazy flexible. You know, I'm on salary, I don't have to clock in and out. You know, generally we get to work from home on Fridays, so that is kind of a floater day for me.

Vipul Bindra: 54:52

Generally it's like editing or you know whatever last minute task is before sunday um, and yeah, it's, it's great and that's incredible. I think if people can find it like some very much like going pro, um, you know, like full-time in it. But I'm all for if you can, if you can find a workplace that is willing to um, you know, pay you, that gives you the freedom and it's letting you do what you love. And at the end of the day, if you don't want that hassle of where's my client coming from tomorrow, because that is the unknown in the freelance world, I think it's a really great choice to go get a job. Like I said, it wouldn't be for me, but that doesn't mean it's not for everyone. And even if you want to be a freelancer, I think it's a good place to go get your skills right.

Vipul Bindra: 55:41

I don't know where else can you go, do live streams and learn because you know if you're coming to my, you know on my regular shoots I'm willing to try people, but live streams I don't want to typically risk people who don't have experience with live because, yeah, you don't have opportunity to learn. We gotta do it right oh, minimizing mistakes exactly yeah so.

Vipul Bindra: 56:00

So it's like very rare opportunities where you can go learn live and a ministry or church or you know something like that, or and it doesn't even have to be that if you're you know, I don't know a synagogue or wherever there's any kind of religious place. I think they need live production, so, uh. So if you know you, you follow certain religion, I think that's the best place for you to go a you're not only you know volunteering I think it's great but then also you can actually gain that experience and they're more forgiving because they understand you're a volunteer the bar is so low, like anything you do, if you're really trying, it's going to be better than everything out there exactly, and I think that's the that is so great to to tell you what you just said, because I think that is the best opportunity to learn live and there's so much money in life.

Vipul Bindra: 56:48

people take this opportunity, go volunteer, um, and practice and learn from people like you, because I'm sure, uh, now that you're experienced, if anyone else joins the ministry, the ropes and things like that and then they can become an expert and then eventually, if, let's say, they do go freelance, they can now run a live production company and make a killer money, and that'd be one of the hardest things otherwise to learn if it wasn't for opportunities like what you have at.

Andrew Keller: 57:15

CFM and that's how I got started, you know, as a cam op at my church.

Vipul Bindra: 57:19

Look at that. So, yeah, I think that's a very good way to start. And then, once you have your skills and your confidence, or even, if you want it because some people may never want it If you're just happy and you know it's paying your bills, then I guess that is it, but if you want it, I think it can be a good stepping stone to that. Finally, the life for you quit and you go. Oh, I gotta go.

Andrew Keller: 57:40

I gotta go full time now, all right, and I'm ready to go and hunt clients I'm only right on that line yeah, you know I'm I'm not looking to build something like, like, like you got yeah, I mean, but you never know, I mean with quentin.

Vipul Bindra: 57:52

I think you have good opportunity. I mean me. I like I said, I love having you, I love having you as uh a can op that we can, you know, bring on. And, like I said, you do great work. I've never had issue at all.

Vipul Bindra: 58:02

Your work is amazing, appreciate it um, and even julie, my editor, said really good things about you. She was like oh yeah, uh, he got really good shots, so make sure you bring him to this next event, and that's why I completely forgot about it. Now we're sitting. I, oh crap, I have another event shoot?

Vipul Bindra: 58:16

I would love for you to come if the schedule works out and then so yeah, so you do good work, so I don't think you should have an issue. But I also think, like I said, quentin's a great friend and I think he's building something really cool and if it works out, there's obviously again a risk with everything you do, but with but with this new studio concept that he has. Uh, you know, I think there's a good opportunity there and so I know he wants you to be a part of that.

Andrew Keller: 58:41

So if you guys can build something there, and that can be your opportunity I feel like there's definitely enough work out there for me to help others build their stuff and I can make a decent living and I can do what I love and I don't need to worry about the other stuff exactly so.

Vipul Bindra: 58:57

So is there a certain number? Uh, let's go real, like the you're trying to hit, like where you're like, oh, if I could get paid this much I'll go happily, but help some build somebody else's. You know this, but and I'm happy, what is that number?

Andrew Keller: 59:12

Hmm, I don't really know a specific number yet. I mean, I just I want to be comfortable, you know, Hopefully at some point I can buy a house, you know, hopefully at some point we can afford kids.

Vipul Bindra: 59:23

But is it like six figures higher, lower, is there or no? You don't have a number yet, right yeah?

Andrew Keller: 59:29

I don't think I have a number. I mean, you know a lot of six figures. That'd be awesome.

Vipul Bindra: 59:41

But I'm not not, like I said, I'm not trying to build something big. I'm just trying to provide for me and my family. So you just want something where you're going to be able to pay your bills. Like you said, buy a house. You know the basic things that everyone wants nothing crazy, I think you're. You're basically like that's what I want to do.

Andrew Keller: 59:48

I want to do video, I want to make this much money and I want to be I want to make enough to afford the life I want to live, but also have a good work-life balance. You know I'm not trying to work every single weekend and kill myself and then not get to enjoy all the money I made. You know.

Vipul Bindra: 1:00:02

Exactly. Yeah, no, that was like one of my biggest things. You know, before I went full-time, I was freelancing, so I was, like you, at a full-time job. So not only am I working and I was salaried too, so I was working way more than you know you need to be so anyway. And then I was also on the weekends or whatever right doing gigs. So it's like when am I gonna see my kids, you know, and I had one kid at the time and I was like I'm not seeing my kid and it's like she's gonna grow up and not know, you know, her own dad, and I was like that's not the life I want plus you know you can't take a vacation.

Vipul Bindra: 1:00:33

I still remember I wanted to go on vacation and it's like, oh, you cannot go for this long, you can only go this state. So I'm like, oh, so you're deciding when I go. Take my time off, not me, you know. It's not like, oh, this is the best days to travel. No, no, no, this is the days we'll let you go. And that was where where my thoughts started churning. I was like I don't know, this is right for me. And then this was incredible, like earlier last year and, to be real, we did less vacations when I became freelance. There's the negative side of it, because, you know, then you go, oh, I'm working all the time.

Andrew Keller: 1:01:05

Then you're the one telling yourself oh, I can't do those days, but last year it was so great.

Vipul Bindra: 1:01:09

It was like I was like, hey, we haven't taken. Obviously, being in orlando, we go to theme parks all the time, so technically we take vacations, but it's not, it is count as vacation, you know, because you're at your home just going to a theme park. Anyway, I was like, oh, let's go on a cruise. And it was just incredible to go on. This is, this is a week, I'm just going, I'm not taking any, any projects this week, so it's like I didn't have to like go, ask permission from anyone, right, I just had to block my own calendar, like, okay, now I ended up technically taking calls and emails, but I didn't have to. You know what I mean. But what's crazy is, uh, and it felt great, that freedom where I was just like, okay, this is the week like hookah cruise, like I didn't have to like go.

Vipul Bindra: 1:01:49

Oh well, it can only be this day to this day, to this day and it was just like nope, this is our time, I'm blocking it off and I'm not taking any projects. That doesn't matter what it is. And, funny enough, I was like, if I even get a project, I'll just pass it to someone else, right, I can always sub it out. So it's not like I can technically still not be working while I'm, uh, on a cruise, but that was incredible to be able to do that, and that is the freedom that I think has its pros when you go freelance. But I do see your perspective too. If, obviously, you're happy to go freelance if the right opportunity came, but at the same time, if something with Quentin or somebody else, whoever, gave you a good paycheck and let you still do what you want to do, then you're happy to do that.

Vipul Bindra: 1:02:34

And yeah there's nothing wrong with that.

Andrew Keller: 1:02:35

And it really just depends on the gig. Know I'm really lucky with the ministry I'm at now. I haven't had that, that problem with with time off. You know they're really flexible yeah I gotta give them a little notice and work around some key dates, but it's worked out, you know that's incredible.

Vipul Bindra: 1:02:51

So tell me this now. Let's say you do go full-time. Let's say you go free or you are full time, but I mean like you go on your own. Uh, what type of gigs would you like to find? What would be like an ideal gig and rate that you're thinking about?

Andrew Keller: 1:03:06

Yeah, I mean I haven't really nailed down a niche yet. There's a lot of things I love. I do tend more towards live production and the technical side.

Andrew Keller: 1:03:16

That's really what I love back to my IT degree. But yeah, I mean, I don't really know if I'm that into you know, spec shoots and add like more creative stuff. It's just, it's really interesting. I love being around it, but it's not my passion. I do really prefer the technical stuff where I can really use my brain and problem solve. So I'd probably lean towards that, but I'm open still to figure out a niche that fits me well.

Vipul Bindra: 1:03:49

So you're most likely leaning towards gigs that are going to be, or will lean towards gigs that are going to be like.

Andrew Keller: 1:03:54

Use that technical expertise from you whether that's, I don't know, camera or live or whatever, it's really what I've built up the most, yeah, and I think you're also really good with post right Because you edit as well.

Vipul Bindra: 1:04:04

Do you do After Effects and stuff like that?

Andrew Keller: 1:04:07

I know enough to do what I've needed to do. I'm not an expert on After Effects, Because in live you've got to do lower thirds yeah like that.

Vipul Bindra: 1:04:14

So is there a particular software you guys use in the ministry or we use the in the full adobe suite, photoshop, after effects. Yeah, all that so how are you bringing it on? Are you using the media bank?

Andrew Keller: 1:04:24

yeah, okay, here's the gears.

Vipul Bindra: 1:04:26

Okay, so because you know, I know there's a bunch of softwares like we use a thing it's called heitler live, something like that, and I should know the name. But anyway, I think I showed you that at that event we never ended up doing it. But there's software solutions to lower thirds or whatever.

Andrew Keller: 1:04:47

I like doing everything in hardware as much as possible. I mean, we do use ProPresenter. That's a really good PowerPoint software. It can do a lot of animation and stuff. But I like doing it in hardware where things can't crash. We've had so many times. Right now in the studio we're running an M1 base model Mac Mini and it has two quad Declan cards and two outputs. It has like 11 displays on it. We are cranking that thing. It's awesome and it works.

Andrew Keller: 1:05:15

We can do Zoom, iso and ProPresent presenter key fill and stage display and it's great, but I don't love to trust it yeah so as much as I can do in hardware. You know we just set up a hyperdeck so we can do video playback through the, through the system. We use the keyers. You know anything I can get in hardware, I try to go that way no, that's my favorite thing, like, uh, funny enough, that's how I use it.

Vipul Bindra: 1:05:35

So hyperdex is like one of my favorite things. So my live streaming kit, we have two hyperdex. I've consolidated a lot. I had like baby I started so funny, started with like looking at quentin's racks and stuff, I started like big rack and I slowly, slowly got condensed because I realized the type of gigs we're doing. We want to be just small and efficient.

Vipul Bindra: 1:05:54

You know, instead of if they want that huge of a setup, they'll call you know somebody like a quentin anyway for sure what they're calling me for is like they want the live stream to look better, right, with those fx6 looks and that cinema type of quality which is not typical with broadcast cameras, right. So anyway, so yeah, but that's like my favorite thing. Uh, so I have a hyperdeck that we use for like playback, and then hyper deck for recording, and it's like so cool to be able to go in the rack where I just plug one output and it just automatically routes and gives me more outputs. But it also goes to the hyper deck and then my favorite thing is you switch to it, it just auto plays, you don't have to like cue it.

Vipul Bindra: 1:06:33

It's the perfect timing. There's nothing you have to do and it just works. Again, coming back to Blackmagic, it just kind of works and it's so good to be able to do playbacks and things like that. So now I want to go more into what do you think is the future of video for churches and things like that. So, obviously, 2020, 2020, we learned that everyone has to do it and now that everyone is doing it, you know, and I think a lot of churches still do it on zoom, things like that, even though we no longer have to, you know, stay at home. What do you think the future is going to go as far as technology and video and media go?

Andrew Keller: 1:07:16

and I do think it's just going to keep getting simpler and simpler. There's such a commodification of video it's. It's, on one hand it's hard to stand out, but on the other hand it's really easy to stand out because anybody can pull out a phone and record, but not everybody is going to do it with the luts and with the color and with the cinematic movements, and so I think it's, I think it's going to be interesting seeing how people choose to stand out in that way. I also have a little bit of a hot take. I don't think every church needs a live stream. I feel like a lot of people jump into a live stream because they feel like they need to to reach people, but most churches don't get the views to support. They would be much better off putting that money into another part of the ministry.

Vipul Bindra: 1:08:01

Or just doing a better live production in the church itself, I think. Yeah, yeah, in-house.

Andrew Keller: 1:08:06

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra: 1:08:07

Cause. Just I think if you do it well, they can. You know you can make a show and I think people Most churches have such a limited budget. Yeah.

Andrew Keller: 1:08:15

Unless you're really going to put the effort and actually make it your evangelistic ministry, you're better off saving the money. I really feel Okay.

Vipul Bindra: 1:08:25

That's pretty cool or interesting to hear from a video guy saying, hey, you don't need a video, but I get it. I mean, like I said, I lived in Alabama for a few years and I was just surprised how many churches there are. I I was like, are there even enough people to support that many churches?

Vipul Bindra: 1:08:39

because you know, they, because that's what churches are fighting for, right. They want viewership, they want more people to join the church and come listen in the message or whatever, and um, uh, but if there's one like every year on the corner, you know, if you're small enough that there's no way everyone can grow that large. I'm saying like whatever, yeah. So at that point, um, I think, like you said, yeah, if you have a limited budget, if you have a small membership, then you're probably better off using that money somewhere else where you can make a bigger impact and if you do want to live stream, actually put the effort in to make it high enough quality that people are going to be there, you know which is exactly where we were talking about earlier.

Vipul Bindra: 1:09:21

I think this is the perfect opportunity where somebody who wants to learn live needs to step up.

Vipul Bindra: 1:09:27

Like they need to go to the church that you know they go to, especially if it's a smaller one. You need to be the one saying, hey, let's go live stream, let me make it better, or whatever, because then that's where you're learning, so you get something out of it. But then you can benefit the church by putting on a real production or doing a better production and maybe getting some benefit out of it. Right, yeah, yeah, so I think it goes.

Vipul Bindra: 1:09:48

Then that was it'll be a both like a good relationship, both ways yeah, the church is benefiting from it and you're benefiting from it by learning and growing your skills and things like that. Uh, but, yeah, uh, but do you think ai will replace you? Because, to be real, most churches have a standard format, right, uh, so once, uh, you feed that into an ai system, normally I'm very bullish on, like ai is not going to replace filmmakers because, you know, we have this creative vision, we're doing something unique. But church is one place where I see, like you said, it's going to get highly commoditized. I don't see why we couldn't program an ai to switch, because you're like, hey, this is, this is a program, right, you learn it's a large lm light so you can beat it. Enough live streams and I think technically nothing stops black magic from pulling, putting out a product that has that built in and then it can switch.

Andrew Keller: 1:10:40

Again standardized.

Vipul Bindra: 1:10:41

I'm not saying something unique. If you're doing something custom or unique, obviously I don't think AI right now is there. But I don't also foresee right now why an AI couldn't switch a church live stream, because it's so.

Andrew Keller: 1:10:54

Yeah, I mean maybe it'll get there at some point, but I feel like there's enough stuff out there that shows how bad it is.

Andrew Keller: 1:11:00

Like I, I get recommended, like at least twice a week opus clip to like pull podcast, podcast clips or, like we do, uh, sermon clips. So we'll take the sermon, cut it up into the, the bites of the message and whatever, and we've tried it and we try it, and we try it and it just spits out garbage because it has no context for what we're talking about. It'll do you know the spot that he was the loudest or he'll you know it'll trim just one minute, but then it missed the meat of the point and it's going to be a long time before it can really understand the content. And I mean that's the biggest point. You know we're not just trying to pump out garbage. That's the whole reason. I don't want people to live stream like, yeah, you need to make it intentional, you need to make the content worth it, and I think ai is a long way off from that okay, so you think, for pulling the actual good stuff out, it's not there yet maybe, maybe it could mix a live stream, yeah, or something you know.

Andrew Keller: 1:11:54

Save that operator, maybe possible. But there's a lot of what I do that I it's gonna be a long time before it replaces it.

Vipul Bindra: 1:12:00

Okay, that's good to hear uh, because you know a lot of people in our industry fear ai and I feel like it has a good tool. Uh, that can be very you know, very beneficial, but I don't know if you need to fear or anything I feel like so many people don't see the value of quality content.

Andrew Keller: 1:12:18

They see just people posting five times a day on TikTok and they grow. They think they can do the same for a church or a ministry or whatever. Nobody wants to watch garbage content. Yeah, you might get some views, but nobody's going to latch onto that. And why bring your reputation as a church down from that? You want to be known as the church with the theology, with the content, with the reason why people want to show up. Don't put out garbage, put the effort behind it, do it right, and AI is not going to do that for a while.

Vipul Bindra: 1:12:49

I get it. So how would you, what would you tell somebody how to approach their church? I guess, with this idea, what is there a right way to say it? Like, hey, let's pull out better content. If you have a church you're going to and you think they're putting out garbage content in terms of quality and content, how would you suggest somebody here approach them and then you know, let's say they want to learn, they want to get better, but at the same time they want to help them, not put garbage out. What would be the good way, I'm saying, to approach?

Andrew Keller: 1:13:20

I feel like a lot of churches view social media and their media presence in general just kind of as a have to. Oh, we'll just do some marketing push, we'll do some Facebook ads, we'll do some whatever. But I really view what I do for churches as another form of evangelism, as spreading the gospel, and so if you, if you can get a pastor to look at it that way, it's like, oh, okay, that's my job, I'm supposed to spread the gospel. This is another path for it. I'm as important as your worship leader. As you know, someone that goes out on the street like video is important to spread your message. Put some effort behind it, cause otherwise you're just like those people on the street that says Jesus loves you. It's like, okay, nobody's like following up with them. You're not. You're not really doing much. Put some effort behind it.

Vipul Bindra: 1:14:06

Okay, and that was you're going to. You can get the word out to more people.

Andrew Keller: 1:14:10

Yeah, no, I completely get it.

Vipul Bindra: 1:14:12

And at the and the, and the technical side and the creative side of it is, you know, like I said, you want to stand out, you don't want to be putting out the same thing that 500 of the churches are putting out yeah you want to stand out, you want your message to to penetrate past the noise, right, yeah, and and again, I think, like I said, I I would just suggest people, especially this is, I think, for more people who are like starting out or you know who are- who are?

Vipul Bindra: 1:14:40

who want to just learn live or just production. In general, I think it's a good, like you said, low, low bar to entry.

Andrew Keller: 1:14:48

It doesn't take a lot to be better than everybody else. Exactly, it just needs a little bit of intention.

Vipul Bindra: 1:14:53

And then the the other side of it is, I think, what you, once you do, master, that not only will you help the church, obviously, but the other side is, I think you'll come back um ready to take on, like bigger projects, where with corporations or wherever, where you can actually charge a good penny, yeah for for being able to provide, because, uh, I mean talking about you, say, in churches the production quality is low. Uh, I'm not gonna name them, but you guys can pull up. Av is basically monopoly by it's like two or three companies all over the country.

Vipul Bindra: 1:15:25

They have partnerships. No matter which hotel or resort you're going to, it's going to be one of the three. Usually I'm saying the in-house option. I'm saying, and they have kind of cornered the market because they're the in-house options. Typically, most companies just go with the in-house options and the quality is garbage. It is so much garbage and that's what I'm saying. Like with not that much effort we show up. I'm saying a typical corporate gig with like four bags, four pelicans maybe, and we can put up a better show than that av company with all these racks and racks of equipment that show up. Uh and again, I think it's because they don't care. Uh, it's simple.

Andrew Keller: 1:16:04

It's not that they couldn't it's just that check, check a box yeah, exactly, it's just again highly commoditized.

Vipul Bindra: 1:16:10

At that point they're just like we are the default anyway. They don't have to like fight for the business, right, and I think that's why they're putting out garbage, because it's so funny. Every live stream I've done for my clients they're like this is the best. We do these events all the time. This is the best, or this is incredible, this is so dynamic or whatever, right, the, the, the compliment that we get, and I'm like I don't understand like how the av companies are charging double, triple of what we were charging, right, and just putting out like the pure garbage.

Andrew Keller: 1:16:41

And that's the crazy part. Like churches, I get annoyed when they don't want to spend any money and it's a bad product. But these people are paying big money and it's still a bad product.

Vipul Bindra: 1:16:50

Yeah, it's still a bad product and usually, like I said, it's just like maybe a wide and a tight and that's all they're switching to. So many times I've been to av companies where they're trying to play back a video and the video just doesn't play. It's been like what, like you know, I don't, I don't get it like nowadays. Like I said, if you're using a mac mini or whatever I don't know, or hyperdeck now I get, hyperdecks are a little sensitive. I think you have to be like really pro res yeah, yeah or whatever.

Vipul Bindra: 1:17:16

But but I'm saying a computer, if you're using for your playback, and m1 most times can play literally nowadays, any format, it's not that complex. So I don't understand where I've been like, where I'm talking av companies getting like a hundred thousand dollars for conference and we're sitting there five minutes awkwardly because they can't play this, this video that they're supposed to play, and and it's like what is happening. I can right now show up with my laptop and, I know, play it, and I don't know what tool they were using, obviously, because I wasn't the one doing that av, but the, the point in front of me, yeah, the, the, what's actually out there.

Vipul Bindra: 1:17:53

It's not that hard to be better than that yeah and and and, like I said, these av companies can ask for 100k, 50k from these corporations. You can go for 20, 25k and do a better job and, uh, and you know, make a killer living doing that, because it's not that hard. If you again cared, that's the main thing I think it doesn't come down to um skill it comes down to is that that if you again cared, that's the main thing. I think it doesn't come down to skill it comes down to is that that if you care, you're going to put an effort, you're going to make the event nicer, their event's going to be nicer and they're going to hire you again and recommend you again.

Andrew Keller: 1:18:27

And it's, you know, it's a cycle.

Vipul Bindra: 1:18:28

But again, and the only reason I think it is the way it is it's a monopoly.

Vipul Bindra: 1:18:34

I say monopoly it's like a throppoli or whatever, but you know what I mean like it's like they have a, they have a fixed choice an easy pick and and it's like, oh, we don't have to fight for our work, we don't have to work hard, and uh, and a lot of times they even put fines on them. Our clients have to pay like a fee to bring an outside vendor and I'm like that's never made sense to me. We've had the at the ministry ministry.

Andrew Keller: 1:18:55

A few times we were at the convention center and we still had to pay for all our operators to be there. We brought all our own equipment, we hooked in, we did everything. But, there was a guy sitting in a chair and we had to pay him.

Vipul Bindra: 1:19:07

Yeah, exactly, and you have to. And it's not even their person, that's what I'm saying. It's like the start party company, company that has the the deal with them or whatever right. And uh, and you have no choice. And uh, you, either you either accept it or you don't. That's just how it is. And in a city like orlando where, like I said, there's conferences and events happening literally every day, like tens of them, uh, the amount of work that's out there is is crazy, and you just have to convert a few of them.

Andrew Keller: 1:19:34

You don't need all of them.

Vipul Bindra: 1:19:35

I. I think that's a killer way to make a living and, like I said, as long as you learn and I think churches and places of worship are the best places to learn this Because, like I said, they're more willing to let newbies come in I think once you become an expert, this is a very good path to follow and, like I said, it may not be for everyone. Maybe you go in thinking, oh, I'll do live, and then you come back and go eh, it wasn't for me, that's okay. At least you'll still learn video production skills, because you're still operating cameras, you're still switching, which is kind of like editing, you're still learning storytelling and all that. So I think there's still something to be gained.

Vipul Bindra: 1:20:24

Obviously, the learning, storytelling and all that. So I think there's still something to be gained. Yeah, um, obviously more so if you want to do live after, uh, but there's still something, uh, you know. So is that what you think with quentin, that you guys will target uh, more live, you, you, this, all this conference work that's happening, hopefully, uh, and then be able to like, take over at least some of it, and that's like it's huge money. Yeah.

Andrew Keller: 1:20:37

That and potentially like integration. A lot of churches are running really old stuff. They have never put money behind it, so you know, maybe bring us in to update the system.

Vipul Bindra: 1:20:46

Yeah, so you're just going church to church and just updating the system, making it better.

Andrew Keller: 1:20:51

And then doing trainings on that system.

Vipul Bindra: 1:20:53

Yeah, that's pretty cool too, because there's so much money in education I've done funny. Like I'm not, I'm an indian. Uh, you know.

Vipul Bindra: 1:20:59

So I'm not a christian, but I have done so many trainings for churches where they've hired me as a consultant, where I've gone and like shown them how to basically, uh, do it better, yeah, right, so, yeah, there's so much money in just consultancy, which is what kind of this right education uh is, uh, yeah, and. And so not only there's money, but then also, like I said, you're again updating their system, you're helping them kind of get up to date on the right way to do it, because they're again probably stuck in old ways and most of them probably, like I said, been in 2020 and just bought whatever they could, and now they're stuck with that because that's whatever was available and unfortunately, just pieced it together over time.

Andrew Keller: 1:21:37

Yeah, where at some point you need to overhaul yeah and actually make it volunteer friendly, you know, make the system, and that's something that, like, I love. Again, going back to the technical side, if I can spend the time and program it right and make it really easy for somebody to operate like that's the best of both worlds.

Vipul Bindra: 1:21:52

Yeah, exactly, and and, like you said, you can make it easy where volunteers can step in and get it done, and, who knows, maybe you can also spark interest in those volunteers to now one day become, you know, filmmakers or whatever, and that's that's like you said.

Vipul Bindra: 1:22:06

A lot, a lot of people are learning. I'm seeing the spark starts that way, like either through their place of worship or through skateboarding or through bmx or stuff like, where they just love their hobby and they just want to film that hobby and then it becomes into this. Oh, I actually enjoy filmmaking more than my hobby and I want to make a career out of it and I feel like any opportunity where you can have that spark show up is a good opportunity, because until people actually experience it, they have no idea, you know, if they like it or not. And, like you said, live can be very daunting for a volunteer and if it can already be programmed, it's better for the church anyway, because it's like all ready to go. But then it can make it very easy for a volunteer to just step in and go.

Vipul Bindra: 1:22:55

Oh, this is what I do. Okay, I can press the button, I can switch right, you know, because I don't have to like program these transitions or whatever else you're programming. Um, things like that. Do you think there's money in there? Like what can? What kind of money can typically?

Vipul Bindra: 1:23:08

and again, I know we're guesstimating here, but yeah what do you think like a typical small, medium-sized church would pay for?

Andrew Keller: 1:23:15

something like that. Oh man, it really just depends, because I mean a lot of the budget would be going in putting in here. A lot of it's going to have to be a full, complete redo of the system.

Vipul Bindra: 1:23:26

So what are we looking at? I'm saying like, let's look at scale because, like you said, it'll vary.

Andrew Keller: 1:23:30

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra: 1:23:30

So it'd be like a low end to a high end.

Andrew Keller: 1:23:33

Yeah, I mean three, 4,000,. You know an eight, a mini and a couple of cameras, again four or 5,000. Um, I'm not really that into sound. I'm. I would love to learn more, but I'm not in that world yet. So, you know, pa amps, all that, that's another big chunk of money. That's honestly where I think most churches are going to spend the most money, that's stretches are going to spend the most money. That's the thing that matters most good audio matters.

Andrew Keller: 1:24:14

A lot um, and you know we're looking at potentially a weekend. You know friday, saturday install sunday into monday training and one weekend get everybody set up and then maybe a few months down the line, another consultation okay, so you're thinking maybe what that sounds like about 15, 20k, I'm guessing probably something like that.

Vipul Bindra: 1:24:25

And is there profit in that? Because again you're buying expensive equipment technically.

Andrew Keller: 1:24:29

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra: 1:24:29

So you're just thinking what Rates for the technicians for? The three, four days. So okay, so that's pretty, that's not bad, I mean. And like you said, the good thing about churches is they're everywhere. I mean not as many in Florida, but they're still everywhere. But the thing is, nothing limits you from just Florida, right, technically, nothing stops you guys from going through this in the Bible Belt, which is what Texas, alabama, mississippi, all these states you know and that have a lot of churches, and then obviously the rest of the country.

Andrew Keller: 1:25:01

There's some big companies out there Summit Integrations I followed them for a long time. Uh, church front is another one that that does this remotely, Um, kind of looking at their strategies and copying their homework a little bit. Look at that, Look at that.

Vipul Bindra: 1:25:16

And that's very smart. You know I'm all about see a lot of people think like you have to be, like, extremely original. Yes, you have to be extremely original. Yes, if you have an original idea, be original. But a lot of times, if all you're trying to do is help for example in your case, in Quinton's case, trying to help, let's say, churches integrate, just look at who's market leader or the top three market leaders and then study them as homework, or you know, I don't iterate on what their work is.

Vipul Bindra: 1:25:47

Point is, you don't have to be that original, especially when you're starting out. Yeah, like a lot of people like, go, I have to have this unique, extremely unique offer. I don't think you do. I think, as long as you have a good offer right, and if you go like hey, here's the market leader, they're offering this, this, this to you for this price, maybe I can do it for 10% cheaper, 20% cheaper or whatever, right, that could be a good start.

Vipul Bindra: 1:26:11

Now, eventually, I do think that when you guys become set in the market, you can then go start your unique offerings or whatever. But I don't think people need to immediately go. I'm going to do something unique. I think, if they're trying to do what I do, which is corporate video, you know you can only do interviews so many different. Now, sure, there's a scale of it. There's, you know, putting a phone in front of someone and, uh, you know, doing it with, like I don't know, uh, alexis 65 or whatever. Right, there's a scale. But still, at the end day, once you master interview, you master interview yeah and I don't know why you need to fight that.

Vipul Bindra: 1:26:49

You know like I wouldn't go like, oh no, where are you in? Interviews are going to be extremely unique. No, you're going to just do interview. Why don't you just learn it and start doing them until you know you've done a few hundred? Then maybe you can I don't know come up with like a custom, unique option. I think that's easiest way to make money is when you study the market and, um, you know, you just follow with it instead of just immediately, when you have zero market experience, trying to I don't know, uh, innovate. Yeah, I feel like I don't know and I'm not saying it cannot be done, but I feel like it's a wrong business strategy, when you don't have any revenue, to go and try to do something really crazy that you haven't even tested the market with.

Andrew Keller: 1:27:30

What do you think? Yeah, I mean I'm definitely not into the business side, but hey, I'm here to fill a client's need. If they need the interview, like they've always had, I can give them the interview they've always had.

Vipul Bindra: 1:27:42

Yeah, I don't. I don give them the interview they've always had. Yeah, I don't. I don't know why we need to um, you know, like I said, start something brand new immediately, especially, like I said, when you you're not experienced, like you said, in business or whatever, when somebody's new, uh, what makes you not be interested in business? So my thing is, even if you are, um, you know, let's say, just working with quentin, you'll be the technical guy, right, you're still, you know you have's say just working with Quentin.

Vipul Bindra: 1:28:06

You'll be the technical guy, right, you're still. You know you have to sell yourself in life 24 seven. I feel like that's just life is. So do you think that's going to be a disadvantage for you not being interested in business or any?

Andrew Keller: 1:28:17

of that it for sure will be, and I need to learn more. I definitely need to push myself out of my comfort zone in that way.

Vipul Bindra: 1:28:23

What do you? What makes you not interested in it? It's just you don't care? Or it's just I don't know, it's daunting, there's a lot there that I'm just.

Andrew Keller: 1:28:31

I'm an introvert, I love my technical stuff and I just want to live in that bubble.

Vipul Bindra: 1:28:35

I know I can't do that forever, but yeah, no, I feel you because you know I'm an introvert. A lot of people in the video field don't know that, but like, that's because I'm an expert in the field so I can talk about it. But like, if I go sit in a you know, I don't know with some people and they start talking about something I don't know about, like I said, outside of technical stuff or video stuff, I I'm an introvert, I'm like I don't know what to talk about. I'm probably going to be quiet as hell and uh and uh. But no, that's, that's something that is very, not, um, not a good trait to have in my opinion. Not that, again, you can change it. Who you are is who you are right, but at the same time you know, let's say, you're even the technician In my opinion you show up and if you're just quiet doing your own thing, people are going to think, oh, he was rude or whatever. Right.

Vipul Bindra: 1:29:22

That's just the perception I'm seeing, and perception is reality. You want to be the guy who's like, friendly and talking, and not because and just because. Then people you know they like the experience, they like to have it being your own and I don't think that means being fake.

Andrew Keller: 1:29:35

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra: 1:29:39

But that also just you know, I don't know. I feel like that's what I've learned as an introvert who runs a business that you have to be good at communication and even if you don't want to be, because at the end that's what makes this part of client experience and it is very important because even if you may be there programming ATEM, programming the cameras, if you're just like I don't know, I feel like not friendly or not talking or whatever, then clients may just perceive as, oh, he was just rude or whatever, he was helpful or whatever, and then you don't want to have that perception. Have you experienced that in life, or have you noticed that at least?

Andrew Keller: 1:30:20

yeah, I mean, yeah, I definitely need to, like I said, push myself in that way. But I I feel, like you know, face-to-face I'm all right in that way. It's just the client relations cold calls, like you know, the management behind the scenes, that is not my cup of tea. I mean, I can be personal, I'm all right in that way.

Vipul Bindra: 1:30:41

Yeah. So what's your camera of choice? I know've shot fx3 with me, fx6 with me. I know you use black magic, uh, with the ministry? What other camera systems? Uh, do you have a preference out of all this that you like, or?

Andrew Keller: 1:30:54

like sony a lot. Yeah it's. It's easy to make it do what I need it to do in the moment. It's just so flexible. Um, I've actually sold most of the gear that I have. I have a A7C2 in my backpack. Yeah, I really gravitate to the FX3, fx6.

Vipul Bindra: 1:31:09

Because you don't need any gear anymore. Right, because again, they provide everything for you. But do you lean towards FX3 or FX6? What's your style between the two? Are you more compact, hybrid, or do you like more beefy body, more rigged out or whatever?

Andrew Keller: 1:31:27

it really depends on the production. So if I'm doing an event, shoot um, like I did with you, generally I would do fx3 handheld. I can just get in tighter, you know, move faster um, but if it's a live stream or an interview or something I'll I'll go for the fx6 all day long okay, so that makes sense.

Vipul Bindra: 1:31:44

So you're you're because I know, uh, everyone is style like I'm more fx6, uh guy. But again, a lot of events, we use fx3 on a gimbal. That's kind of what you did for me and that's just because you know you got to be able to go, but you got to also be able to be smooth, and things like that. Um, uh, do you think, uh, um, like that, this is, this has gotten all like similar.

Vipul Bindra: 1:32:08

My only issue is that everything is now Sony, so there is a certain look that Sony is bringing, which is not a bad look yeah but if everyone is shooting Sony, then everything starts to look, unless you purposefully and I'm also not a big fan of purposefully making footage teal and blue or green giving a certain look just because, because you want to be different. But typically these cameras have looks and I think the Sony look is now so overused. Do you see that as an issue or no, that everything's going to just look the same?

Andrew Keller: 1:32:39

I mean to a point. As long as you're delivering a good product that the client's happy with, I'm happy, and I feel like Sony can just do that so consistently. And a lot of it does come down to taste. I'm super not into the crazy Lutz teal and orange like you're talking about, but I do like a very contrasty, punchy image and I feel like that's not super trendy at the moment. So hopefully I stand out just by that at the moment.

Vipul Bindra: 1:33:08

So hopefully I stand out just by that. But yeah, no, then right now, the, the whole filter thing is in which I'm not a big fan of the, the popular one, um, people throw what is it? Black, the black promise, promise, yeah, I like the hollywood black magic, uh, better, just because I feel like the way it renders highlights is nicer, which I don't know. If you notice that fx6 highlight response is terrible, I feel like as soon as you throw like a promist on, it looks even more horrible. Uh, because you know it creates that halation even at the lowest setting and most people are not using 1.8, they're using like quarter or whatever, and I'm like this is too much on a camera that's already, you know, halating by itself, I don't know, in highlights. So I don't like that look. But yeah, you're right, it's very common and popular now, and even not Blackmagic, even there's other companies now everyone has a mist option that people are throwing in, right, I'm a sucker for it a little bit.

Andrew Keller: 1:34:02

I have the short stash everyday filter on my camera right now it's a quarter mist and a circular polarizer okay they're great every day for street photography or stuff, but I'm I'm not a huge fan on.

Vipul Bindra: 1:34:15

Yeah, on for video yeah, I think, like I said, I really like hbm, so I I do use it. I use hbm one eighth for that too, like I said, eighth, and I do like it because it doesn't cause as much halation. I like the way it renders highlights better but, like I said, I'm still not a fan because I personally am not a like. Like on Alexa, amazing, I use it all the time. But, like I don't know, fx6 response to me is just, I don't know, I'm not a fan of putting more, uh, more mist on. I'm saying fx6 sensor yeah, and but that's a common theme. I find most people have learned about filters, so it's like, and every nd is coming up with a mist built into type of thing, so it's like it's, it's everywhere that low contrast, um uh image is like really out there right now, yeah, um, but no, it's good.

Andrew Keller: 1:35:04

No, I'm not either. I mean, I like high contrast, yeah, dark shadows.

Vipul Bindra: 1:35:08

Yeah, no, I do like to crush my shadows too. I do like the like I said. I don't have an issue with low contrast look, I think it's a good look, but I think it's overdone. But so is gimbal usage, I think it's overdone.

Andrew Keller: 1:35:21

Nowadays it's like everything's just a similar look and it's like again I really don't end up using a gimbal too much, I mean for the, for the ministry. Everything we're doing is really fast run and gun. We do a lot of worship music, so it's a lot of basically concert-esque um. So I I like to get handheld movement yeah, no, I, I like handheld movement.

Vipul Bindra: 1:35:43

I think it's more, especially if it's done right, especially that's when I love I have fx3 over fx6. I really like the ibis. Yeah, it's not the strongest but you know it can help with that handheld because getting those punching in, getting those close-ups with like a 70 to 200, I think it's incredible look and fx3 is so perfect because that ibis and the lens and the, the camera works together and I think it gives you enough stabilization where you can get away with the handheld look and it just looks so natural and looks nice and you don't have to use a gimbal or whatever.

Vipul Bindra: 1:36:17

And it'd be hard anyway with a 70-200. That's like one of my favorite things I would love for you to do on that event that I'm thinking about bringing you favorite things and, like I said, I would love for you to do on that event that I'm thinking about bringing you uh to uh. That'd be really cool if you can switch between like a 24 70 and a 70 200 and get me close-ups, because I think that's just an incredible look. Yeah, um to get um, but yeah, that's. That's pretty neat. So this is um. Like I said, I love the technical side of where we're touching in um. Do you like to go? Do you use anything, auto or no? You're just all manual mostly manual.

Andrew Keller: 1:36:49

I mean, for photography I'll generally set it to aperture priority, just let the ISO figure it out. But for video I'm pretty manual everything.

Vipul Bindra: 1:36:56

So are you still doing photography like paid or just more like enough for fun?

Andrew Keller: 1:37:01

I do paid photography very scarcely. Uh, I do paid photography very scarcely. We just did a maternity shoot, my wife and I. I will do it. I don't. The same reason. I don't prefer weddings. I don't like working with individual families that are really picky.

Andrew Keller: 1:37:18

You know one of the worst experiences I had I did a graduation shoot and all the photos of the graduate were phenomenal, but the mom didn't want to pay me because her five-year-old had glare in his glasses on one. All the photos of the graduate were phenomenal, but the mom didn't want to pay me because her five-year-old had glare in his glasses on one of the photos. I was like what? Okay, like I, I don't want to deal with people.

Vipul Bindra: 1:37:35

Yeah, so I I stay away from you at least.

Andrew Keller: 1:37:37

Yeah, yeah they worked it out, but it was like it wasn't even a photo of the graduate, yeah, and it came into a big fuss. I was like, all right, i't, I don't need this stress. So I kind of stay away from photos for that. But I do love photos. I still do a lot of event photos, just, you know, around churches, or you know, I'll take Hannah out and we'll go to the beach, take, you know, some portraits or whatever.

Vipul Bindra: 1:37:57

Okay, so it's more like finding an occasional pay. It's my way to get about, yeah, so you're still focused mostly on making money through video. Yeah, yeah, which makes sense, and that's how we've always worked together through video. Um, how was the networking event? So that was really cool. So you attended the networking event with quentin and we did it at c10. So, yeah, that was really cool. I know how was your experience meeting people, getting out there, talking to other people who are like doing that freelance journey and obviously some of them are like you had a full-time job too, so how was that?

Vipul Bindra: 1:38:29

tell me about that experience meeting every it was really, actually, very interesting.

Andrew Keller: 1:38:33

I, I don't know anybody you know, I'm the worst video guy. I don't have any contacts. It was really cool getting plugged into the to the group. You know I've known quentin for a while, um so getting to work with him and seeing other people in the group is is really helpful um do you meet any notable people where you were like, oh, this could help me or at least give you inspiration or something like that?

Vipul Bindra: 1:38:55

I don't know did you have any meaningful conversations where it changed your perspective? Or at least because I know we also did the educational segments he had three people speak. There was a lot going on that day, so I'm like I don't know if that did any of that change your perspective or open your mind or anything like that.

Andrew Keller: 1:39:13

Yeah, I'm trying to really absorb as much as I can. Unfortunately, I'm just not ready to jump ship yet, so a lot of it's kind of gathering information and then holding it away for later. So I didn't really feel like I applied too much right away, but it's really good to to get that knowledge for when I'm ready to jump and to make connections. Same thing for when I'm ready yeah, because it'll be very easy.

Vipul Bindra: 1:39:35

Now. You can go all the people that you met right like, hey, I'm freelancing now or or whatever, I'm available to hire whatever, and you never know what comes your way. And that's, I think, the part of what these meetups are, right, you just meet variety of people and all the different skill set, all the different positions, and you never know where what happens. Yeah, is it? Maybe somebody you end up hiring because you need a freelancer, or the other way around they need somebody and you, uh, you know you they get to hire you.

Vipul Bindra: 1:40:06

But that wouldn't have happened had you not met these people yeah and you wouldn't have met them had somebody not put up a meetup together and you can get some valuable information out of it because, um, you know, um, that he had. You know, uh, like I think alex and adam speak about some of some really cool stuff. Like even I learned, like I'm not charging for storage, even though my storage costs are crazy. Like I got to show you the server before you go. So it's like you know that all costs money and if you're not accounting for, you know, in the client invoices or whatever, it may not be direct, I don't know if I'll put like a storage fee in there and again, you could, could, but it needs to be built into my calculation because it's like that is a cost right and I hadn't.

Vipul Bindra: 1:40:51

I didn't know that until that day. I was like, oh, that's a very valid point. Why am I not including that whenever I do my internal calculation, that that is the cost that I have and then I have to bear? So things like that you learn a lot. Yeah, may be simple, but that you didn't think for, or you didn't come for.

Vipul Bindra: 1:41:08

Because you're not thinking about it. And that type of cost applies to everyone, because even if you're a DP or whatever shot for someone, you're still storing their footage. Because guess what Clients will six months later reach out and say, hey, do you still have it? And if you have it, negative experience if you deleted it, which is fair, obviously, because there's cost. And if you do have it, that's great. But now that means for six months you were using a hard drive or somewhere, all that data. That means you had costs that you didn't charge for. So something like that. I feel like those are really good. So I'm glad you attended one. Can't wait for you to attend more, yeah, and meet more and more people, and maybe that'll help you in any way. I don't know what it will be. You never know who you mean, and they may just be like, oh, there's a gig or there's this or whatever. That's like, uh, big enough or right enough, or you go, oh, this is this is exactly what I mean.

Vipul Bindra: 1:42:00

um, and then you jump ship, or even if, even if you don't, the one thing I do like about you is like you're able to do enough freelance work without having to compromise your job in any way, so you don't have to essentially quit right, unless you have enough work where.

Andrew Keller: 1:42:16

And I like it at the ministry. You know I'm not looking to leave. You know if I can do both, if I can get enough side work to you know, support my family and also stay at the ministry. I'm perfectly happy with that.

Vipul Bindra: 1:42:28

So is it just you? How many people are there? I know Quinton works, but he's like a contractor, right?

Andrew Keller: 1:42:33

Yeah, we have three full timers and then a handful of contractors.

Vipul Bindra: 1:42:37

Okay, and Quinton is a contractor, and that's how you met him. How long have you known him?

Andrew Keller: 1:42:43

We started about the same time at the ministry. That was um early 21. My hire date was like april 1st and he had started on right before that okay, so, so, and then I know you guys are good friends.

Vipul Bindra: 1:42:53

That's how I met yeah uh you, because, uh, I needed someone and uh, he recommended you and I think I came by. He wanted to do something at c fan and, um, I don't even remember what we were doing, like some kind of camera test or something right he just wanted every camera he could get to shoot the same thing, and I don't think he did anything out of it that uh, but it was so cool to hang out with.

Vipul Bindra: 1:43:15

Uh, like, say, you and we had alex and a bunch of other people and it was really cool to have, like what, 10 cameras there, if not more made for good picture.

Vipul Bindra: 1:43:22

Yeah, I know, it's really cool and uh, and that's the thing. When I met you and I was like, oh, this is really cool, we're like connecting because obviously you care about video and and everything like that, and I was like, oh, that's really nice to meet somebody else. Technical, because that's where I found myself. Weird, because I'm very business.

Vipul Bindra: 1:43:39

I don't know if you could tell like I'm running a company here, I'm very much like pro business and all that, but at the heart I'm just, uh, I'm a very tech guy, right, I love to go to the core of um, you know, like I don't know the tech about the cameras and like the lighting and everything, and I'll go immerse myself like I'll obsess over and then want to learn everything to do with it. And that's what got me into video initially, because it was so tech focused, um and. But I don't like bring it up with most people because most people don't care about it that way. Right, most people are like, talk to me about the images or the creativity, which is cool. I love that too, but I'm just saying most people don't care about like what I saw using, what aperture using and why are using that? What look is that giving? All that? You know the technical part of it and I love how a certain aperture or shutter speed or whatever can do to the image.

Andrew Keller: 1:44:31

And how can I?

Vipul Bindra: 1:44:32

manipulate it to do whatever I want it to do, or whatever.

Andrew Keller: 1:44:35

And especially on the Sony cameras, where the levels of dynamic range change on the ISOs. So it's like counterintuitive. You want a higher ISO when it's brighter outside because you have more highlight retention and it gets really nerdy really fast and once you actually start to really dive into that, you go, oh, or like my favorite camera before this.

Vipul Bindra: 1:44:54

Actually, technically so, my favorite sensor I would say on the lower I was under 20k cameras was the c70 because that dga sensor and I loved it because it had one of the best shadow responses than, I would say, any sensor I've used outside of alexis. And I was like, oh, I can actually purposefully underexpose image, which you don't do on most cameras, because you know it'll just kill your shadows and same thing very nerdy, I would love to do that.

Vipul Bindra: 1:45:22

I was, I'd be purposely a lot of people.

Vipul Bindra: 1:45:24

Why are you doing that?

Vipul Bindra: 1:45:25

I was no, because I want to retain more highlights, and this is one of the rare cameras I can do that because I know how much I can pull up from the shadows and stuff like that, cause you know, once you learn the sensor, you know what you can do with it, and and like I no, but I love doing that with the 70, so kind of like that, and and uh, that's like. Like I said, I love getting into the nerdy part about it, but you can't and that's what I would even suggest to people like you can do it with your friends, but you, when you go to a client, they don't care. They don't care what camera you have, what settings you're using, and rather that can be a detriment. It'd be like, uh, like I think I had david on the podcast uh, a while back where we were discussing and he was like uh, you know, uh, you know. Imagine if you called a plumber and he spent 10 minutes telling you about how nice and shiny his crescent wrenches while you have a leak going on, right?

Vipul Bindra: 1:46:19

and you go just fix the freaking leak and it's kind of like that we can get all nerdy about this. Camera can do this, this, how much dynamic range I have, or whatever, while the client goes. I just want to get this video done. Can we film the ceo, right? So it's like uh, you know and that's why it's cool to know each other where we can nerd out about this stuff while we're not annoying the client talking about how beautiful our camera is, where they don't care.

Vipul Bindra: 1:46:46

You know, usually, like I said, they like the big size If you have a camera that looks big or they don't care it's one or the other, and even then they'll just say, oh, that's a nice big camera or I've had.

Vipul Bindra: 1:46:56

It's so funny. This is rare, but I was in a shoot recently where we pulled out the two FX6s because it was an interview. So it's my a and b cameras and my fx6 I rigged pretty, you know, matte box, um, um, you know, with a v mount and all that. But anyway the client goes uh, do you ever use bigger cameras? And I'm like what are you talking about? What bigger cameras? You know, like in my brain I'm like I was like yeah, I mean, depends on the job. It's like they get more expensive. I don't know if they'd get any bigger than this. You know, like in my brain I'm like I was like yeah, I mean, depends on the job. It's like they get more expensive. I don't know if they'd get any bigger than this.

Vipul Bindra: 1:47:29

You know, sure I could rig more things to it, but you know that's unnecessary but anyway. So I'm saying that's also happened, that's rare, but where the client goes, do you want to use anything bigger? I'm like this is already fairly big to me right now because you know I could pull an fx3 and get 95 of the image for this tiny body. Yeah, but clients are like that. You never know. They'll say the weirdest things. Uh, where, where you know it can throw you off for a loop for a second, you're like what? Or usually say, oh, that's a very big camera, that must be very expensive. I'm like, well, it is decently expensive, but it's not because it's's bigger, it's just because it costs what it costs.

Vipul Bindra: 1:48:08

But anyway, I'm saying outside that clients don't really care the size or the quality of your camera or whatever.

Andrew Keller: 1:48:15

It's so funny now, like you know, the Raptor X and the Borano they're basically the same size for way more money. It's like, yeah, you can spend a whole lot more money, but it's not going to look that different.

Vipul Bindra: 1:48:29

Yeah, it's like, yeah, you can spend a whole lot more money, but yeah, it's not gonna look that different. Yeah, it's, it's a five, ten percent. And now, uh, it does matter when the budget is high. So I've had people ask like and this is like, uh, and, and you would probably get this what I'm saying like a lot of filmmakers typically don't get this. They go I don't get it.

Vipul Bindra: 1:48:41

My fx3 looks so good. Why would I ever use a red, or which reds are not used that common anymore? But I'm just saying like, why would I use a v-raptor or or an alexa mini lf or whatever, or 65 or 35 or whatever? And I'm like, well, it's kind of like it's hard to first explain if you have no idea, but I'm like it's like, think of this way, why would you not use a cell phone? Then it's the same scale, right? It's like if a client pays you money, why aren't you using a cell phone? Why aren't you using an fx3? Why are you using an fx6 or whatever camera? So the scale goes, whatever, but you're right at the end day it's like five percent once you get to a certain level, which cameras are so good? Now you're chasing pixels, right, you're like chasing very minute percentages. Now, that matters.

Vipul Bindra: 1:49:31

Like I use, I'll tell you me A. When a client's paying me 30 grand a day, they expect me to use the best and I'm going to use the best tools and I find now this may be a personal thing, but I'm pretty sure it's to everyone because it'll access everywhere. Like I'll rent minis or mini LFs that's like the camera I typically rent and I'm using them because the skin tone is so beautiful and especially when you're filming, like people with various different skin tones, right, I love how it renders not only Caucasian skin tone but also darker skin tones, and I haven't seen cameras that can make skin tone look so creamy, nice, it doesn't matter the money. Now, yes, does that mean if I put a burano there or an fx6 there, the skin tone is just gonna be trash? No, you know what I mean. But it's like that.

Vipul Bindra: 1:50:22

It's like the the scale right where it's like that. It's like the scale right when it's like, hey, we want a corporate video done. Okay, what can you spend with me? 5k? Well, we're using the FX6. That's what's in the budget. I don't have five grand to go rent cameras when the whole video is five grand. But now if you're like, hey, yeah, we're doing something, high end budget is like 20, 30k, we can afford to do that on this video, then I'm like it would be disservice.

Vipul Bindra: 1:50:48

Now, could I shoot it with the fx6? Yes, but then could I shoot it with an iphone? Yes, but I'm going to use the better tool because I want the people to look at their best. Just like why I would bring a hair and makeup artist. Right, I would bring an hmu because, uh, I want the client to look their best. I'm going to bring an alexa because I want their skin tone to look the best. Not that it's necessary, right, just like on a five grand video. Nothing stops us from using a cell phone and I'm pretty sure and I can't believe I'm saying this I would have not said this a few years ago, but now an iPhone 16 Pro, max or whatever on log is a very good image.

Andrew Keller: 1:51:23

It's really good.

Vipul Bindra: 1:51:24

Yeah, with good lighting, because lighting makes a bigger difference than the camera. So if you do good lighting, you could you technically use that. But am I going to know? Because I have a better tool that will render against skin tones better than that. They'll give me better dynamic range, even though I know iPhones can fake better dynamic range. But you know what I mean, like I love that about, uh, the fx6 is that the image is really good, it's really creamy, it's really nice. But now again, I'm not going to compare that to the alexa, but I'm not going to use the alexa if I have enough money, if I don't have enough money to go rent them and make enough profit. Simply is that. And but anyway, that's what I'm saying. Like I've had that happen where people go the scale. So I, yes, I don't think you need anything more than an iphone nowadays, but you will because you have the more budget. Right, the client says I have a higher budget, you know, then you use a better tool.

Andrew Keller: 1:52:13

Well, in that same vein. You know the scale also doesn't have to be a vertical scale, but there's so many phenomenal options in the same price point you really can pick the option that fits the shoot best. So if I'm super run and gun, I just need to put something in my backpack and go get footage, I grab the fx3. But if I'm going to do, you know, with time code and with you know, more ports and whatever, I can grab an fx6. Or just want the best image quality and go get a komodo x. Or it's awesome that everything has such a phenomenal bar of quality now that now I'm not even thinking about, well, can I get the image I want? But it's like what's going to make my life easier or what's going to fit this production better, built in NDs versus IBIS versus you know whatever?

Vipul Bindra: 1:52:56

And I think also it's about the right tool for the right job right.

Vipul Bindra: 1:52:59

If a client hires me and they went, they want their content to look like UCG. I'm using an iPhone. It's not about money. It's about that's the right tool, because it's going to look like a user made it Versus 5 Pro and FX6. It's going to look like a professional image and that's not the right tool. So you also use the right tool and that's why I tell people yes, your iPhone's great, your FX3's great, your Komodo's great Nowadays. Yes, your iPhone's great, your FX3's great, your Komodo's great Nowadays. Camera doesn't matter. You know what matters, to me at least, that can make or break a shot Lighting, sound. People will watch a terrible looking video because they're used to it. Crappy content is everywhere. They will not listen to a crappy sound. They will not listen to or they won't look at the videos and let well, or whatever, something like that. So I think you're better off spending more time and effort into lighting and sound than camera, which is crazy coming from me to me.

Vipul Bindra: 1:53:54

You know the camera guy first, then lighting and sound and all that, yeah, but that's just what it is. Uh, don't you agree? Don't you think like it makes such a big, bigger difference than any camera would? Because you, you're splitting hairs, right? To me personally, the difference between Alexa and FX6 is just that it's skin tones, so it's not that huge. It's important, but it's not worth a 50 grand camera versus a 6 grand camera, right? Yes, we'll use the right tool because, oh, I have more money, sure, I'll rent a better tool. Yes, we'll use the right tool because, oh, I have more money, sure, I'll rent a better tool. And I'm sure my clients, as I ever expect they will use the best tool for the job because they're paying a top dollar. But it's not like that huge of a difference.

Vipul Bindra: 1:54:39

It's like I wouldn't go buy it is what I'm saying anymore. Like in the past, having bought an Alexa, I wouldn't buy it anymore. Now, I don't think it's worth owning it. Having bought an Alexa, I wouldn't buy it anymore. Now, I don't think it's worth owning it because the times I'm needing it, I can charge my client and they're happy to pay it, and if it's not the right tool for the job, they're not paying it anyway, so it doesn't matter. So I don't think those two tools make any more sense owning them, unless you again want to operate a rental house. That's different, but yeah, that's another thing people go into, like you don't have to buy gear anymore, just rent it, and as the gear gets better, I think you can bill your client for it. So if you need it, just rent it, and if you don't, you don't need it. Yeah, don't need to invest in it or anything like that yeah, that's.

Andrew Keller: 1:55:15

I mean, that's what kind of the boat I'm in. I'm trying to. I mean, I like I said before I I've sold basically everything I have and I have an a7 c2 and a 40 mil prime just for photos and stuff. But I'm really looking at what's like the minimum viable package for me and I think I'm probably going to go fx6 route, you know, a 300 in a softbox, a couple tubes, just a really basic package, and then I'll get like 90 of what I need and rest.

Vipul Bindra: 1:55:43

You can always rent right yeah, if you need it, you can rent it, and otherwise you're good, and that's. If you need it, you can rent it, otherwise you're good, and that's what I'm saying. Yeah, you're right, I think most people just need one package, and maybe it could be a camera, maybe a good A camera, maybe a decent B camera, and that's about it and you can do 90% of corporate commercial work, and anything else you can always rent. You know, you can always add to your package, like I've got a whole van out there.

Vipul Bindra: 1:56:10

So, it's not. It's not like there's limitation on what equipment you can find, and and it's a better investment too, cause then your startup costs to be going freelance wouldn't be that high. Right, yeah, you can go now instead of like, oh, let me save 10 years to get this stupid package that will be old anyway by that time, because you know cameras age like so poorly. Uh, like I said, they look so good, but the new ones come out, like especially sony. They're churning out, I feel like new bodies every six months and it's like I'm.

Andrew Keller: 1:56:40

I mean I'm kind of sad, though, because it looks like we're not going to get an FX3, fx6 upgrade for a little while.

Vipul Bindra: 1:56:47

I have heard, and again these are rumors. I've heard something is coming, but again I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to speak on rumors, but the good thing is or I say good. The crazy thing is, for me at least the demand for FX6s is so high that I don't think it's going to change like immediately, even if they tomorrow announced oh, there's an fx6 mark 2 or whatever, like I said, I don't think it's going to make fx6 tomorrow be like redundant because the image is good and they're being used everywhere. I mean, reality shows are 90 right now, just fx6s, maybe with fx3 thrown in I don't know what sony could do.

Andrew Keller: 1:57:25

I mean, like there's a lot that they could prove. Yeah, you know, ergonomics wise. Like I would love a better screen built in. You know, I'd love, you know, audio on body. Yeah, I'd love the ai auto focus like we have on the a7 I think that's where it's probably gonna be. I don't think image quality is gonna change now I don't know how much brano.

Vipul Bindra: 1:57:42

I think br Burano is the perfect idea of what an FX6 March 2 could be, Not that you know, I'm saying it's guaranteed, but I'm saying usually when you look at companies, that's what happens. Right, it comes to the higher end, then it trickles down to the lower end, and the only thing I foresaw like foresee personally is based on Burano finally being able to get IBIS and NDE together, and then also the whole AI stuff that they're doing now in their cheaper bodies. That will trickle up type of thing. But yes, you're right, the sensor's already this good. Now obviously we can all hypothetically say we would love more dynamic range, we would love better codecs, we would love more options. I don't know why they don't give you their H.265 codec on FX6. Makes no sense to me. The naming scheme on clip format, like I love the way. On FX3, like second, I can go on a tangent.

Andrew Keller: 1:58:35

You can label them.

Vipul Bindra: 1:58:35

you know with the date automatically and the file names makes it so easy. You can do that on FX6s. Doesn't make sense, why not?

Andrew Keller: 1:58:42

That's my biggest gripe with sony that they release a firmware and then don't go back retroactively and fix it across.

Vipul Bindra: 1:58:48

So it's like they've added, like you said, things at the lower end and the higher end, and typically I'm saying, when they'll release it, they'll, it'll just trickle up and down. Yeah, but to be real, it's not that much. But at the same time again, uh, the way at least I invest in my gear is wherever the industry goes. If tomorrow they launch an FX6 Mark II or FX9 Mark II or whatever, and that's what everyone's using, then that's what I'll buy because I'm running a company right.

Andrew Keller: 1:59:13

To me.

Vipul Bindra: 1:59:14

It's ROI. It's like is the demand there? Is my camera going to work? Sure, I'll buy it. But if the demand won't shift, like Burano.

Vipul Bindra: 1:59:21

So immediately as Burano was announced I was like and shift like Burano. So immediately as Burano was announced I was like, oh, I'm going to buy two. That's going to become my primary A and B camera. But then they launched and I was just waiting. I was waiting for a reason. You know the way I buy gear. Somebody's like, hey, we need two Buranos. Okay, I'm ready to invest. So let me buy them instead of renting them. But then I didn't care.

Vipul Bindra: 1:59:42

Same thing where, like we were talking with black magic, they don't care, just use whatever, yeah. Or they were like oh, yeah, we're gonna use fx6s or fx3s. Or hey, can you use alexa? Right, it's either nothing. That's what I hear at least. I would love to know people in comment. They're feeling differently or hearing differently. But it's like just use whatever. Or use fx6 or alexa if they have a high budget, that's's it. I haven't heard the word even red, which is so crazy to me. It used to be common last few years. It's like nobody's demanding for that. I'm saying you can use it, but nobody's like calling to say like hey, I'm an agency, can you do the shoot for me? Can you please shoot on red? Or can you please shoot on Nikon or Canon or whatever?

Vipul Bindra: 2:00:21

I haven't heard those words in at least, I would say, two years which is crazy to hear that the market was so consolidated, I'm saying by the FX6 and FX3s, because they were so good, Because technically the cameras are old but they consolidated the market so well that and that's why I told people invest in them even now, because I don't think market is going to, in one day, fully switch, because markets don't change that fast.

Vipul Bindra: 2:00:52

Yeah, but if it does happen, I'd be happy to like say I want to personally buy boranos. I think it. It fits well in my workflow. Plus, I like that I can use my e-mount lenses and all that you know, so I see use for it.

Vipul Bindra: 2:00:58

but, like I said, I'm just waiting for demand and I haven't gotten any calls for it and I'm like it'd be silly me and I'm sure I could if somebody calls me and says, hey, we need to FX6. And I'd be like, yeah, we can upgrade you to Burano. But then I'm like that makes no sense to me. If they're just calling for FX6, just use the FX6 that we have. So that's the only reason I haven't bought Buranos right now.

Andrew Keller: 2:01:19

So anyway the point is you?

Vipul Bindra: 2:01:20

You're right. I don't know what they can do. There is obviously things they can fix, but those things could technically already be fixed by firmware and FX6 if they wanted to. I don't think they want to. I don't know what it would take to bring the H.265 codecs, but I think they should be there, because the M1 Macs cut through H.265 footage like butter and I don't know why we don't have that because it's on FX3. So you know stuff like that. I'm saying they could potentially add it if they wanted to, but if not, you know we'll wait till Mark 2, see what happens, and then I would love to see.

Vipul Bindra: 2:01:58

I'm going to do the same thing. I'm going to wait to see. If everyone just goes crazy on them and then the market just switch, then sure I'll happily buy a couple, but if not, then I think I'm happy. As far as quality goes, I'm not really missing anything. So yeah, no, it's crazy. Well, look at us, it's already been two hours. This was an incredible conversation. Thank you again for coming and talking with me. I hope it was fun. Before we go, anything else you want to say or add and tell people where to follow you.

Andrew Keller: 2:02:30

Sure, I'm on Instagram andrewkellermedia and yeah, it was great to be on the show.

Vipul Bindra: 2:02:36

Thank you, Andrew. Always a pleasure talking to you and can't wait to talk again in the future.

Andrew Keller: 2:02:42

Yeah, man.