Curiosity, Creative Expression & Spaghetti on the Wall: A Practice for Self Discovery | Kristan Swan

FOR EPISODE LINKS & MORE INFO VISIT: https://samhorton.co/blog/ep107

What if curiosity was the doorway to deeper self discovery?

In this thoughtful and expansive conversation, Sam Horton speaks with life and spiritual guide Kristan Swan about the powerful role creativity can play in helping us reconnect with our inner wisdom, question inherited beliefs, and better understand ourselves.

Kristan shares her own creative journey from studying fine art and experimenting with printmaking to landscape design, business coaching and ultimately guiding others through reflective creative practices. Along the way she discovered that creativity was not just something she did but something that continually helped her learn who she truly was. 

Together Sam and Kristan explore how curiosity can soften self judgement, how creative expression allows emotions and insights to surface, and why practices like journaling and intuitive drawing can reveal patterns and truths that might otherwise remain hidden.

This episode is a beautiful reminder that creativity is not reserved for artists. It is a deeply human way of listening to ourselves and navigating our lives with more awareness, compassion and possibility.

3 Powerful Benefits of Listening

1. Discover how curiosity supports personal growth and self discovery

Learn how approaching your life with curiosity instead of judgement can help you uncover patterns, beliefs and insights that lead to deeper awareness and transformation.

2. Explore how creative expression helps you hear your inner voice

Kristan shares how writing, journaling and intuitive drawing practices can provide powerful pathways to process emotions and access inner wisdom when words alone are not enough.

3. Learn a gentle creative practice for reflection and emotional release

Discover the story behind Kristan’s journaling practice “Spaghetti on the Wall” and her concept of Heart Mapping, both designed to help people explore their thoughts and experiences with openness and curiosity.

Key Takeaways

• Curiosity is a powerful tool for personal growth and self discovery.
• Creative expression helps us explore emotions, beliefs and life patterns.
• A creative mindset encourages experimentation, openness and possibility.
• Journaling can reveal hidden patterns and insights in our daily lives.
• Creative practices can support emotional processing and reflection.
• Artistic expression is not required to benefit from creativity.
• Creativity and spirituality often evolve together through self awareness.
• Intuitive drawing practices like Heart Mapping can help release mental tension.
• Observing our lives without judgement opens the door to deeper understanding.
• Everyone has unique creative gifts that support personal transformation.

FOR EPISODE LINKS & MORE INFO VISIT: https://samhorton.co/blog/ep10

Transcript

Ep 107. Kristan Swan

[00:00:00] so today I have Kristan Swan with me.

Uh, Kristan is a business coach turned life and spiritual guide devoted to helping people come home to themselves. Kristan's work invites you to explore your deepest truths, question the beliefs you've inherited and reconnect with the inner wisdom you may have been taught to ignore. She believes that curiosity is one of the most.

Powerful tools. We have a way to approach our lives with openness, creativity, and compassion. So welcome Kristan. Thank you so much, Sam. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So let's just start with your story. Tell us about your journey and how creativity has featured in your life. Creativity has been such a.

A through line for me to, to learn about myself, and I really only put that together fairly recently, but [00:01:00] I grew up, um. Always kind of doing projects and, and doing a lot of things with my hands, whether it was, you know, creating little bead things or, or needle point or anything like that, cooking. Um, and so then that kind of as I got into school, that translated more into the visual arts.

And I actually, when I graduated from college, one of my degrees was in, um, fine art. Okay. And I did, um, printmaking. Um, and even within that, I love kind of, I, I feel like a lot of my creative exploration is, is working within a medium, but then kind of pushing the boundaries of that medium too. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Uh. And I think for me, there's also printmaking in particular I loved because I [00:02:00] was making my own plates. So I, I, I started, when I first started, I was using the metal plates and, and mm-hmm. Doing that type of printmaking, but then I realized I could make plates out of fabric and, and leaves mm-hmm.

And layering and, mm-hmm. Um, creating a medium and letting that dry and, and just kind of creating my own world on this plate. Mm-hmm. And, you know, sometimes I would layer it too thickly. I don't know how well versed you are in the print process, but you soak your, your paper. In water so that it has a bit of give to it, but sometimes when you're going through the press, and if I had too much happening in my, in my plate, then it would bust through the paper.

But like kind of stretching that. And then I started adding elements of, I've always loved taking photos. Um, and so back in the day I was taking 'em on a a where I was [00:03:00] actually developing the film. Um, and then later on, um, having them. You know, developed at either just for the ease of using them in the collage process that I was mm-hmm.

Weaving them in. So it's, it, it's, there's always been this element of creating for me. Mm-hmm. And. It was what it was doing that I didn't realize until more recently was giving me so much information about who I was. Yeah. And so now my primary medium is writing. Although I've always been a voracious reader, I, I don't even remember learning to read 'cause I just remember always knowing how to read.

Mm-hmm. I, I think that, and as much as I admire [00:04:00] authors and just, you know, can completely become captivated by the written word mm-hmm. That. The idea of writing myself, although it was appealing, it was, it, it didn't feel, it didn't feel like something that I could do. Mm-hmm. Um, and whereas now it does feel like it's, it's, it's a medium that I can explore because I feel like I now have enough.

Understanding again of myself mm-hmm. That I can, um, translate in a way that, um, makes sense hopefully most of the time on in words. Right. The wisdom of age. Right. Right. I know. So, yeah, so it, before it was all these other, and then I had a business landscape doing landscape design and again, kind of bringing that, [00:05:00] that creative element of, for other people, you know, creating these mm-hmm.

Spaces that mm-hmm. Really took, and that was kind of an interesting process when I thought about. The, essentially what I'm taking is kind of what's in their mind's eye and be mm-hmm. And, and turning it into a physical reality. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Beautiful. So, I mean, it sounds like you've had quite a creative journey, both, um, from a work perspective and also from a personal perspective, you know, so, yeah.

As you've navigated these creative shifts that you've experienced, how has that, transformed your creative identity along the way? Do you know? You know what I mean? So like obviously if you're starting out as a fine artist and a landscape designer and then you're moving into business coaching and maybe doing some personal creativity and then you are, you know, doing this, um, more spiritual based coaching that you're doing now, [00:06:00] you know, how has that really impacted the way you see yourself as a creative in your identity?

Well, what I, where I am at this moment is I, are you familiar with Carol Dweck's work? Um, she wrote The Growth Mind. Well, she wrote the book Mindset. Okay. I put Yeah. The growth mindset. Yeah, the growth mindset. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so much of the emphasis for people who are not familiar with that is, is that you, how much more we learn by kind of.

Going back and correcting our mistakes or, you know, not, not thinking just because we didn't do something well that. That is something that we can never do well. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, that, that we're supposed to have these talents, right, that are just immediately recognizable or they're not, and how we can limit ourselves.

Right. By [00:07:00] not allowing for that exploration within failure, essentially. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and I, and that book really spoke to me when I first read it. And it was initially geared, I was reading it as a parent and it was geared for elementary, kind of K through 12, um, elementary school. But it, it made complete sense to me for so many different, for business, for, for your personal life, for adults.

And I believe she has now expanded her work to include all these things. So. I love that idea of the exploration, and I think that that's one of the things that a, a creative endeavor allows us to do and, and almost encourages us, right? Mm-hmm. In ways that mm-hmm. Um, sometimes other things. Feel more strict, right?

Mm-hmm. You're, you're going to, [00:08:00] you know, if you're, I mentioned that I used to develop photos in a dark room, and you're always playing with, you're playing with how long you've got it in the, the different baths and you're mm-hmm. You know, so you are essentially in, in that moment, you're not thinking of it as.

Failure, essentially, you're, you're experimenting. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And so I, as I mentioned now, I kind of, I like this idea of what is a. Creative mindset look like. Mm-hmm. So if, if we're, if we've embraced the idea of a, a growth mindset, is there kind of the next step, which is the really a, a creative mindset, which for me, kind of aside from my artistic endeavors mm-hmm.

Is really a way of interacting with the world and also interacting with [00:09:00] myself that. It's suggesting that there is an expansiveness to the universe and that there is this kind of, this realm of possibility mm-hmm. That is available, I feel like to everyone. Okay. Um, if we're, if, if we're. Interested in meeting it.

Yeah. And willing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you think that maybe that's something, you know, that growth mindset concept and this kind of like embracing the journey, you know, rather being fixed on, you know, having a particular creative identity and, and sticking with it. Do you think that's something that maybe you struggled with early on?

Is that part of your journey or is that something that you've always been able to embrace? I think I've always been able to, I I have both, let's say. Yeah. Okay. Yes, yes. And because I've always been able to embrace the journey, um, in [00:10:00] the sense that I think that even as a child I was aware of. The information and the mm-hmm.

And you know, and in the introduction you mentioned curiosity, which is such a, a big part of my life. So I, I think that there was always this, this real curiosity mm-hmm. That was natural. So it, it was embracing all sorts of experiences and information and, and, and. Definitely there were times when, especially as a young adult, I was looking around at my friends at school or other, you know, colleagues and who's, I just, I so wanted to be them and that I wanted to be sure about something.

And in terms of [00:11:00] like a, a career path or, um, I, I just, especially in a, in a professional sense. 'cause I think as a young adult, after you finish school there, everyone's like, okay, what are you gonna do now? Right. And. So, yeah, there's definitely been moments where I wish that I was that person who had it all figured out and knew what the outcome was, right?

Mm-hmm. Um, but I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's me. Yeah. Just embracing who you really are. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. So I believe that our creative evolution, you know, our creative identities and our creative journey is, um, operating in duality or in tandem with our spiritual evolution.

Right. They feed and mirror each other. Has that been your experience too? Oh, absolutely. I, as I, [00:12:00] so for me, I. Feel like that, that that spiritual side of me did not, although it always existed. It was at a, um, I. It, it was at a, not a superficial level because I, I always felt it very deeply this, this idea that, and this connection even to something that is bigger than myself, which is kind of my simplistic, um, definition of, of my spirituality.

Mm-hmm. Um. But it has only been through these different creative endeavors and, and I would include, you know, starting a business and growing a business mm-hmm, mm-hmm. As a very creative endeavor for, so it's only through those, those moments and experiences, but [00:13:00] also. Doing kind of the time or taking the time to reflect about where I am and kind of integrating these lessons into myself and into my understanding of myself, I guess is a better way of saying that, that I feel like for me, I had to really get to know myself before I could then have a more mature.

Relationship with my spirituality. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And do you think that your creativity has matured alongside, you know, that spiritual maturity in a way? I mean, I think, I mean, I was saying that I write now and I. I mean, that seems very grown up. I mean, it seems grown up, but I mean, if, if you, I, if you read some of the stuff I write, it probably doesn't seem very grown up.[00:14:00]

And I think I, I am at this point, I'm willing to have, I'm willing to have fun with it. I'm willing not to, I don't want to take myself too seriously. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I do know that when I first. Was just even contemplating being a fine artist for, you know, my career path, I, I couldn't do it. Mm-hmm.

Because I, mm-hmm. I, I was, I was too intimidated by what I thought you had to be as an artist, and, and I also. Don't know that my work would've been that interesting. Really, because for me, the most, I feel like the most successful, especially when you're talking about paintings, printmaking, mm-hmm.[00:15:00]

Photography. Mm-hmm. The most successful works are those that are sharing a, a, a. A piece of the person right. At a yes, yes. Is, is a glimpse into their heart or, and, and that then allows for that, that conversation to happen with the viewer. Mm-hmm. That really is a reminder of kind of these universal truths too.

Yeah. I think that's kinda what I mean by maturity as well. I think, you know, it's kind of like, it's actually this, this inner wisdom, you know? Yeah. And that's, that's got to be reflected in your creative output as well as obviously your spiritual journey, so. Yeah. Right. It's really powerful and I just, I, I feel like I was way too scared.

Yeah. To, to be that, be vulnerable. To be vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah. If there's a bravery in it, isn't there? And [00:16:00] I think especially when, for me too, there was there that vulnerability felt very, um, scary because, you know, I would, if I were to, to be a working artist, I would need to show my work. Right? So obviously I'm, I'm sharing it with the world.

Yeah. And eventually, um, there's, you know. Critique of it. And, and then also there's that, the, the, the money piece that there is, you know, you, I think you have to be pretty, um, well, let's just say I was not in a place where I could, I could probably manage the, um, disappointment of either a negative criticism mm-hmm.

Or also kind of that, um. That, that binding of kind of [00:17:00] dollars to Yeah. Create my work. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a tricky, um, thing. I think, you know, and it's definitely, again, it's comes down to mindset, you know, at the end of the day, right? Yeah. And you need a, a certain amount of wisdom and life experience and, you know, um, trust within yourself in order to make that happen.

Yes. So, yeah, I completely agree. Um, I can see that. Like your work is heavily focused, as you mentioned, you know, on, um, writing. But, um, also, you know, journaling, you know, is, um, a form of creative expression for growth and transformation. But I also saw that you are, you are going to or you are interweaving, um, a concept called heart mapping, which is guided visual expression.

So tell us about how, um, those two forms of a creative expression can support us in different ways, um, through your eyes. Well, I'd, I mean, most [00:18:00] simply, I, many years ago, I created a journal called Spaghetti on the Wall. Mm-hmm. And that is meant to be a daily exploration with writing. And more recently as I have been, um, I was, I, I do spaghetti on the wall every day and.

There are, there was this day in particular where I was, I just, I was kind of like, I was kinda like this ball of energy, but not necessarily like good energy. Um, it just, um, so I just was fidgety and kind of just so many thoughts racing around in my head and I thought, Ugh, I, I, I. I don't wanna, I don't wanna write words.

Words seemed so kind of insufficient to mm-hmm. To kind of meet me [00:19:00] where I was mm-hmm. In this morning. Mm-hmm. And I. Started drawing and I, and specifically a continuous line drawing. Okay. So less about, uh, creating something representational Sure. Per se, and more about using that activity of holding a pen to paper.

Uh. Without lifting it and, and kind of drawing what came out. Mm-hmm. And it was, I, I felt like I, I, I felt so much better. Number one, I, I was really, it worked and I thought, I'm gonna create another journal that's called Heart Mapping because I felt like it was this direct line that was. Where I was able to [00:20:00] really release all that, that busyness that was happening in a, in a way that when I looked at the swirls and the loops and the, it just reminded me of kind of the juggling act that I had been doing in my brain.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm not sure anyone else would've seen that in my, in my squiggles, but it, I, it, it was such a great reminder because I have been so focused on writing Yeah. For the last, you know, couple of years that I was like, oh gosh, why? I mean, sometimes we forget, I feel like, or I do these parts of myself that.

I love and that are so, I mean, really, I think one of the things that I felt when I was doing that, that continuous drawing was just how soothing it was. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:21:00] And yeah, so I a different kind of release from the words, a different kind of release. And, and there is, and because frankly, I mean, sometimes words are just.

There, it's can be hard to find the right word that I think about English as this, you know, odd language when I compare it to like what I know about Japanese or German or some of these other languages that have these wonderful words. That, or kind of big phrase, you know, big, long words or, or phrases that encompass.

Kind of a whole state of being. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. That and, and so, but it, it was such a natural thing for me to go back to drawing. But like I said, I, I think that, I don't know, have you ever done that where you've kind [00:22:00] of forgotten a thing that. That you enjoyed doing or that that worked for you. And then it's like, oh gosh, yeah, go back to that thing.

I think we just get really stuck in our heads, right? We think it has to be a certain way, but really it's just about tuning in and listening, I think, you know, and asking what we need, which obviously you did, and that's the result. Um, so tell us about the. The Journal, journal Practice Spaghetti on the Wall.

Tell us about how you came up with that name and what kind of transformation you hope that offers people. Well, the name, the name really came from being a little kid, and my mom was not a cook. Uh, she loved having people over and she loved having other people cook. Mm-hmm. Um, she was not proprietary about her kitchen in any way, shape or form.

So we had a really dear friend who. Was quite, uh, I think he had done some acting in his spare time and he, he was quite theatrical and, um, which [00:23:00] was great fun to watch in the kitchen. And so making pasta, of course, he introduced me to this concept of, oh, the only way that you're gonna know if the noodle is done and it's ready, throw it on the wall.

Well, in this case, throw it on the ceiling and see if it sticks. And I, you know, it really was. This very, I can see the, the, our kitchen was very yellow. It was yellow tile and kind of yellow paint. And um, I could see it right now with lots of windows. And so that idea has always stayed with me, that memory.

Mm-hmm. But then also, as I mentioned, being a person who. You know, I, I call myself an experiential learner, right? Mm-hmm. That where I have a tendency, or I used to have a tendency to rather indiscriminately say yes to everything. Mm-hmm. Which provided me [00:24:00] with a lot of information. Um, some of that information I probably would be okay without, but we we're not going to go there.

But it's so, it, I, I kind of have always been. Fascinated with how we, what are those, kind of, those operating systems within us, right? Mm-hmm. How do we, how do we make choices? How do we, how do we do that? And when I was business coaching, I noticed so many of my clients, 'cause I got to know them really well and I'm talking to them.

They're kind of complaining about the same stuff, right? So there's, there's patterns that are happening. Mm-hmm. And I thought, well, what, what could be a tool that could help people? Um. Not necessarily change them because people have to choose to change on their own, but how could they perhaps gain some awareness mm-hmm.[00:25:00]

Around kind of especially patterns. Um, and also how could they gain awareness around. What, um, what are the things that, that are really meaningful to them, right? Mm-hmm. Those, those moments that are, that bring joy or peace. Mm-hmm. Um, and then conversely, maybe be willing to take a look at things that don't feel so, um.

You know, in alignment with who they are. And so I created this journal. It has prompts, I mean, it, it has the same set of prompts. I mean, part of the, the way that it works is, is. Doing it with some consistency. True. Mm-hmm. So that mm-hmm. There is that recognition. And of course, I needed this journal myself.

I was deeply, um, you know, involved in making choices that were repeating patterns that I was, um, complaining about the [00:26:00] outcome. Mm-hmm. And so it was, it, it turned out to be quite, um. You know, I probably needed it the most. Yeah. But it's, you know, we're not for myself. Once I have that, even if it's just a little glimpse, but once I kind of open the door to some awareness, it's very, very difficult for me to, uh, to ignore that information.

Yeah, sure. I mean, I may not know what to do with it. Right? Yeah. In that moment, right? Mm-hmm. But it's, it's very, very hard for me to say, oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, well, it's the first step to change. It's the first step to change. Right. If you're not aware, then you can't change it, so, right. It's the first step.

Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like that whole practice is really centered around that word that you mentioned before, curiosity. Yes. So tell us a bit more about how you believe Curiosity interplays with our [00:27:00] growth and our creativity. Well, I think that we. I part of the way that the journal is set up, and one of the things that I think that was really important for myself is to, how do I, how do I get curious about myself, uh, and in a way that doesn't reinforce kind of the negative feelings that may make me.

Shy away from getting to know myself. Right? Sure. I, I think that there's, there's this idea that self discovery. You know, maybe is this, um, you know, this emphasis on, you know, unearthing all the kind of the negative feelings. And so I think that one of the things where curiosity in, in my [00:28:00] understanding of it, is allowing for a real, you know, just.

I start with suggesting to people become a non-judgmental observer. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Kind of think about if you wanna journal about something, or even if you're reflecting about something, kind of go through it in your mind. Not. Not with all sorts of values and you know, this was good or this was bad, or this, you know, or you were good or you were bad, but just kind of go through it as a witness.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And so for me, curiosity was the, the doorway that allowed me to think about my life. Think about kind of the. Experiences that have happened, but also kind of the stories that I had inherited. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And without [00:29:00] shame, without guilt and re recrimination. And that's, and that's not to say that there isn't the time to.

Hold yourself accountable. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, to be really, to be honest with yourself, right? Mm-hmm. But I, I think that I know for myself that I'm not gonna get that far. I'm not, I'm, I'm not. If, if I'm mired in. Humiliation or shame or guilt or, you know, these, these set of feelings that, um, I'm, I'm gonna be less open.

Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I, I feel like curiosity is a, a way to approach this that can give us a more expansive, um. Way of looking at things and, and maybe a release of some of [00:30:00] that, that judgment that we are so willing to assign to ourselves in, in our actions. And like a gentle questioning. Um, I guess, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So obviously once you've got curious and you are kind of going down that path, how important do you think creative expression, whether that's writing or the art, um, based stuff that you were talking about before, how important do you think creative expression is, you know, to really, um, hearing that inner voice, you know, and, and, and living with, um, more integrity.

Well, I, I mean, I think ha, having a means of creative expression is, is vital. Mm-hmm. I mean, I just, I can't, it's so, it's, it's kind of, I mean, it's like, for me, I feel like I'm like the fish that gets asked, you know, how's the water? And I'm like, water. Uh, because creativity is [00:31:00] so, uh. Just interwoven into my day-to-day life.

Mm-hmm. And I, I think for a lot of people, I think we're all creative, right? Mm-hmm. And in whether, and I, I am, I mean that in a bigger sense of the word Sure. And not necessarily in the, the strict kinda artistic, um, pursuit. Mm-hmm. And. I, I, I, some of my workshops are based on kind of, hopefully gently guiding people into recognizing their own creative paths that mm-hmm.

May not be resulting in writing or, um, a painting or what have you. But that I think it's so foundational to who we are as humans. Mm-hmm. And [00:32:00] then by extension our, well, my connection to my spirituality. Mm mm So what does your personal, creative practice, what does that look like for you today? Well, today it's, it is definitely, uh, writing, uh, on the daily.

Mm-hmm. Um, it is, it is. Also so much of my, my, my creative world is, is fed by noticing and observing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And listening. Mm-hmm. So, um, it can be listening in an urban setting. Um, I, I love to eavesdrop. Uh, I, uh, you know, I love to watch people and, and think of, you know, kind of sometimes make up [00:33:00] stories, um, of what's going on.

Sure. It, it can also be, uh, observing in, in nature in mm-hmm. Um, you know, or the, or just, I mean, so much of, I feel like. It's, it's a funny, um, we were talking about duality. It's a mm-hmm. It's a, it's, it's a funny duality in that so much of my creative practice is a, a dance between noticing the, the tiniest details.

Mm-hmm. And yet making sure that I take time to just. Admire the sky, right? Mm-hmm. Kind of. Mm-hmm. Having that zooming in and zooming out. Yeah, sure. Yeah. That's a beautiful way of putting it, actually kind of not getting too tight about the way that you are, you know, expressing yourself creatively and being open.

Yeah. It's beautiful. So for all the women who are curious about, uh, creativity as a tool for personal growth and [00:34:00] transformation, what powerful message or question would you like to leave them with today?

I would love to ask them to consider. Well, I'd, I'd love them to, to just acknowledge or, or just for the purposes of this exercise, accept that you have a creative gift. Mm-hmm. And. Think about what that is, that creative gift that you are, that you're sharing with the world, that you're sharing with yourself, with, you know, friends, family, and, and, and it might be a challenge because you may have to think outside of, of the kind of artistic.

Um, understanding of the word creative, but mm-hmm. To allow for, and again, that kind of is inherently that word, um, creativity, [00:35:00] right? Is mm-hmm. It is inviting and, and just a expansiveness of thinking. So I guarantee you, um, whomever you are, you. Have more than one, but you definitely have at least one creative gift that, um, takes some time to, to name it.

Mm-hmm. And recognize, um, what it kind of, how central it is to, to your being. Hmm. That's beautiful. Get curious about it. Yeah, exactly. So how can people get to know you better, Kristan, and get a real feel for the work that you are doing? Yeah. Well, I, my website is Kristan swan.com, so that's a probably one of the best places to come and take a look.

Uh, and I also post weekly on Substack, [00:36:00] uh, as Kristan Swan. Mm-hmm. Then if, um, there's, but the, the, the website has it all. So Kristan swan.com. Well, thanks so much for coming in, um, chatting with me today, Kristan. Um, really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you. Thank you, Sam. Thank you for, um, this wonderful space to have a conversation like this.