Create As If You're On The Moon: The Artist’s Path to Healing, Freedom and Purpose | Carine Van Hee

FOR EPISODE LINKS & MORE INFO VISIT: https://samhorton.co/blog/ep129

Carine Van Hee is an artist, author and speaker whose work explores what happens when we finally let our creativity show all of us, not just the parts that are easy to look at. 

For most of her creative life, Carine only painted in her happy colours. It took a burnout, her mother's death, and years of quietly discovering how deeply she'd learned to disconnect from herself before she let her art carry the whole story.

Three reasons to listen:

1. Why the gold of your creative expression is rarely the in the first layers.
2. How creating "as if you're on the moon and nobody's watching" can loosen a lifetime of making art to be liked.
3. Why the process, not the finished piece, is where the real transformation actually happens.

Key takeaways:

• Mixed-media painter and author Carine Van Hee works on large-scale canvases on the floor, moving around all four sides so she can approach the work from every angle
• Why layering in art mirrors the layering of self-discovery, and why the "gold" is never in the first, rawest layer
• The practice of leaving a piece of paper beside the canvas to catch the words that surface mid-creation
• How hiding your difficult colours from your art can mean hiding difficult parts of yourself
• Why art installations can open conversations that a formal talk never could

Reflection question: Where in your creative practice are you still only showing your happy colours, and what might it feel like to let the rest through?

FOR EPISODE LINKS & MORE INFO VISIT: https://samhorton.co/blog/ep129

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Build a Soulful Relationship with your creativity, WITHOUT Sacrificing Skill, Beauty, or Impact in Your Art. I share the three steps to awaken your creative power, release what's holding you back, & safely practise creative expansion, so that you can welcome more abundance & finally come ALIVE with Soulful Creativity.

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 Ep 129 - Carine Van Hee

[00:00:00] So today I have Carine Van Hee with me. Carine is an artist, author, and speaker who uses her personal story and creative work to raise awareness about emotional manipulation.

Through her talks, art, and writing, she inspires people to choose relationships built on respect, honesty, and emotional freedom. So welcome, Carine. Thank you very much for having me, and I'm so looking forward to this conversation- ... because I really believe that we have, that creativity to us means something different or perhaps something more than that- Yeah

means to somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. So good. So let's just start with your story, Carine. Tell us about your passions and your journey and how you ended up here. I'm gonna ... If it's very short, what I say, usually say is I m- make people feel less alone by talking about the hidden system behind toxic relationships, and I do that through art.

Mm-hmm. Uh, I talk about my journey through art from being a victim to becoming a [00:01:00] survivor to an activist for change. Uh, but I also talk about it, and I have my book, uh, where I talk about the hidden system behind toxic relationships because when I was in it, I didn't know I was in it at all. Okay. And it was the art who helped me to get me through- Okay

all the stuff. And, Not only the art actually, but I mean, I've went, been to therapists and things like that. But it's only in 2024 I discovered that it, I had been in an emotionally abusive relationship. It is, it takes a long time to understand- Mm ... what has happened because it's so invisible. Mm. And that's when I decided to stand up, but we can perhaps go- Mm

more into detail. Mm. Yeah. So when you- Yeah ... when you say you didn't realize you were in it, is that because you were disconnected from, your truth and, you know, like, your intuition and, your sense of, you know, who you were deeply inside? Is that what that was? Absolutely that. I think you're the first one who actually understands.

Yeah. When we talk [00:02:00] about toxic relationships, people most of the time, they go like, "Yeah, but these are only words, that it's not harmful." Mm. Oh, yes, it harms- Mm ... because they make you disconnect from what you feel, from your- Mm ... intuition, from your inner knowing, from your gut feeling, from the navigational system we have in our body.

Mm. Mm. They make sure that you're in your head all the time, and then when you're in your head, they can win because they're gonna isolate you, they're gonna manipulate you, they're gonna gaslight you. Mm. It's like, yes, it took me a long time to actually understand. It's because, in 2023, my mom died. Mm.

Uh, she was nearly 92, and there were so many strange things going on emotionally- Mm ... that I thought, "This is strange. I have to dive into what is going on here." Mm. So then I started to read about toxic relationships and narcissistic abuse and, uh, narcissistic traits, and then I discovered that my father is actually, gonna say very, very gentle.

I think he has narcissistic traits. Um- Mm-hmm. ... and so my mom has been in a relationship for over [00:03:00] 60 years, in an emotionally abusive relationship, and I as a child didn't see it. Mm. It was invisible. There were no, my father never shouted. There was n- Mm. It, it was not visible. So my mom- But you don't know what you don't know, right?

You don't know. Oh, yeah. She must have felt so alone. Mm. And so when I dived deep into the matter, I discovered it's a pattern they use. Mm-hmm. And when I looked at the pattern, I recognized everything between my parents, but I also recognized that I had been in a toxic relationship my sh- myself and I didn't know.

Mm. Because at that time I would call it complex, confusing. Perhaps we, we're not, we're not a good fit. I would give all- Mm ... kind of excuses. Mm. Mm. But now I know. Mm. So yeah. Interesting. It has been quite a journey. Absolutely. So- Yeah ... yeah, so let's unpack some of it. So in your, message exchange with me, you said, I'm gonna read it because I need to make sure I say it right.

You said, [00:04:00] "Creativity has been my soulmate on this journey even before I fully understood its significance." Mm. So tell us about what you mean by that. So, if you get disconnected from your body, you're in your head all the time. And when I was around 50, I was in a full burnout. Uh, I always worked in, uh, in big American companies as a purchasing, Mm-hmm

person, so, that's a lot of, um, conversations about money and a lot about negotiation, and it's like here, up here all the time. Mm-hmm. Um, so the burnout was like a, a big present. Uh, I didn't see that, that, that at that time. Mm-hmm. But it made me stop and realize that perhaps I should, listen to my body more.

Mm-hmm. And then what I discovered is that I had been ... So I went to art school from the moment I was 18 years old. Okay. And I kept going back to art school and, and dive into the matter again, and then I [00:05:00] ended up in toxic relationship, so I left, uh, the art school and I went back again. Mm-hmm. And along the way I understood that, The art I was making was I was only, showing half of who I was.

Okay. I only showed the happy side of me. Yeah, okay. The happy colors. Okay. The happy colors, the, the wonderful colors, the, the lovely energy, the, the, the care, the love. Everything was expressed through my colors. And I never really dived into the, the, the, the hard side of things in my life. Mm. Because I didn't want to show that.

I thought it was not of use to anybody if I would show- Mm ... the grief and the sadness and, and the anger. Mm. And so it was a lo- it took me a long time to actually connect with myself again and feel what I wanted to express. Not something ... I didn't want to make something that was, that appealed to people.

I needed to make art that was good for me. Mm. Mm. So it was a long, [00:06:00] long journey. I see you nodding, so perhaps you understand. I don't know. Yeah. But I didn't express from the soul. I was, like, o- only half in. Mm. And it's because of my mom's death that I started to really express what I felt. It took me a long time- But don't you think that-

to connect again ... that's the artist's journey? Don't you think that is the, the mission, is to- But- ... you know, yeah, peel back those layers? Yes. Yeah. Perhaps. I don't know. I just talk how, how I feel- Yeah. ... about it. I see that there are, like, people, artists in their 20 who really can connect with their body and express- Mm

from a place of soul and heart and intuition. I couldn't do that. Mm. There were so many layers that, that were in between my s- my own intuition and myself, and I w- I think I wasn't bold enough, not daring enough. Yeah. It's only because I understood that there's a pattern behind toxic relationships that I could feel, like, the shame go away.

Mm. And I started to breathe, and I could feel like there's a [00:07:00] freedom in it. Mm. I, it was not my fault. Mm-hmm. So everybody who's listening, if you're in a toxic relationship- Yeah ... or you have been in it, educate yourself about the hidden system because it frees you up. Mm. I could feel it's not me. Mm. Oh my God.

Yeah. What a relief. And, and I could dive deeper into who I truly was. So it was like- Mm ... opening doors again. It took a while. So cool, though. Yes. So good. Mm. So good. So- When did you, did you always know then that kind of art and creativity was part of your purpose? Or, you know, when did you really start to understand that this was kind of how you were going to really leave your mark on the world and, it seems like very purpose-driven work, what you're doing now.

Would you agree? Yeah, now. Yeah, yeah. Yes. now absolutely. I think you have the same. There's a purpose behind the work that you do. Yeah. You want to connect people again with their creativity. Yeah. And I, I listen to, I'm [00:08:00] just gonna read it, "What if your creativity is inviting you to become more fully yourself?"

Mm-hmm. I think that ring, that I, I have b- goosebumps all over now because- Mm-hmm ... that's, you're driven. You're driven to p- Mm-hmm ... to, uh, connect people with their true selves again. And I'm driven by, and it's just since 2024 actually, after my mom died. Okay. I went into a depression. Yeah. Because how do you deal with the fact that you discover that your history and your upbringing was just a big lie?

Yeah. That you have been, that people were pulling, that my father has, have been pulling strings all the time. Mm. That I never chose myself, that I didn't- Mm ... get the space to, to, develop myself as a human being. Mm. And that all the problems that came afterwards had the, had the link to the upbringing. So I had to, like, revisit everything in my life, and I, I took, like, I went back to, into therapy for eight [00:09:00] months, and then I started r- re- uh, writing the book, started- Okay

talking in public. Mm. And the shame just went. Okay. I have no shame anymore to talk about it. Mm. Like reconnecting, the purpose-driven is only since 2024. Okay. Which is strange, actually. Mm. And I start- And it was your mother's death that was the catalyst for that? Yes. Is that... Yeah, okay. Yes. Yeah. I thought I cannot be of meaning to my mom anymore, and it's really sad, and it hurts me deep inside.

Mm. Mm. Mm. Makes me very sad. But perhaps I can be of meaning to others. Mm. That's what's driving me. So if somebody out there listens and, and, and thinks, "Oh, perhaps. I'm not sure." Mm. "I'm confused. I'm thinking about my relationship all the time." Please educate yourself. It's not you. Mm-hmm. And you're not alone.

You're not alone. But I s- I remember since I was a kid- Mm ... I have always been into colors. I was dressed in red and yellows, and people would look at me- Yeah ... like, oh my [00:10:00] God. Yeah. So and I was always creative with my hands. I wove with, with, special materials, and then I created things with my hands. I, I knitted my own, Mm

garments. I mean, I was a really creative kid. Mm. But my dad stopped that. Mm. Okay. He just closed all the doors on creativity. Okay. Yeah, interesting. So it took me a long time to actually understand, uh, wait. The burnout was a gift. Yeah. Stop. Why are you working your butt off in big corporations as a purchaser- Yeah

whilst your s- it doesn't light you up. Yes. And I was already, I was already- Yes ... nearly 50, so it took me a long time, yeah. And you were making art, though, during that, that portion of your life in, in, yeah, in that- Yes ... do you- I was in and out the academy all the time because- Yeah ... you end up in a toxic relationship, and they think that you're wonderful, and you're an artist, and wow, that's great, and I'm so proud of you, and then they take that away from you.

Yeah, sure. Of course. And then let it happen. [00:11:00] Yes, of course. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually a really interesting thing, isn't it? like, almost like- Mm ... in all of the stuff that, that we're taught, like about, like, it's just a hobby and, you know, why are you wasting your time and you know, you're pathetic. Yes.

That type of thing. It's very easy to do that with art, so that's an interesting thing in terms of, like, the manipulation that you're talking about. So- Yeah ... because we already have so much that we carry around with, is this work really important? Am I really allowed to do it? And then if you get that coming in over the top, it's, yeah, it's a recipe for disaster.

Yeah. Yeah. Can, can I just ask a question? Yeah. Mm. The people who, who, who, uh, get help, uh, get your support- Mm ... what do they actually think about creativity? Because I could feel perhaps I'm not g- not good enough. Yeah. I, I'm just- Well, what I was actually gonna ask you, it related to exactly what you said with the whole becoming more fully yourself, right?

So- What it is, I think often is that we, we fall into this trap where we, we know that [00:12:00] art is an important work and we're very drawn to it, and it's very like, it is a soulful thing. You know? It feels like it is. Mm. But somehow we get caught up in this whole external validation and self-doubt piece, where we're basically making art for the approval of others, and we're asking our art to hold all of our self-worth and everything that we are, right?

Because, um, we feel so drawn to it. But actually what you just explained before is, like the real work is in being able to like show everything on the canvas and release it all there. and you know, let it kind of transform into something beautiful. Um- Yes ... which is the journey you're on now, right?

Yeah, yeah. Yes. And it's amazing. It's amazing. Mm. Well, the... I always, kept away, I stayed away from the dark side, of expressing the dark side. Yeah. And actually I mi- I, I needed what happened. So the biggest gift my mom gave me is just fully express yourself. Because she- Yes ... didn't have the s- [00:13:00] the, the space to do that.

And my art studio- Mm ... is my safe space. Mm. It's where I can express everything. I like- Can I swear? Yeah. 'Cause I, I don't give a fuck of what people think now. Mm-hmm. And it's so freeing because I just, I j- w- however I show up, I can be angry, I can be, full of grief. Mm. I can be sad, I can be loving and happy.

Everything is okay. Yes. I don't need to be somebody in my art studio. I can just be myself. Yes. And that's the most freeing thing there is. Yeah. So good. Because then you can, you can, you can turn inwards. I turn inwards. Yes. And I just listen to what needs to be seen and what needs to be expressed now.

Mm-hmm. And every minute is something else. And it just, it just pops out. It's, it's like the most magical thing ever. I am always so in awe- ... of what shows up. Yeah. I can... I would never have imagined... If you stay in your head when, while you're creating, then you have something, you [00:14:00] picture something in your head and want to make that.

Yes. You're not gonna be able to make that. It's never gonna be good enough. Mm. But when it comes from the heart and from the soul- Yes ... the things that appear on your canvas are, like, beyond wild. Yes. And sometimes I need to sit back and look at it and go like, "Wow." Yeah. "What the heck? What's happening here?"

Yeah. Where did that come from? What, what does it mean? What does it say? Yes. Yes. I don't know yet. Yes. Sometimes it takes me, like, months beyond. Yes. So I just had an exhibition and I have my paintings up, I go like, "Oh my God." Mm-hmm. "Now I can tell what it actually means." Yeah. So good. That's it. And I, I kinda describe it as like, um, it's kind of releasing what we don't need anymore on the canvas.

Oh. But it's also prac- practicing who we are becoming. Yeah, practicing who we wanna be and how we wanna live and that's what we're doing. Oh, yes. So good. Yeah? Yes. Absolutely. That resonates so much. It's in... I can tell you're a creative [00:15:00] person because I've been- Mm ... I've been talking about the hidden system of how toxic relationships, but I haven't been talking about creativity so much, and this is so much fun.

Yeah. Yes. Okay. Because I can feel that you understand what, what- Mm ... how cr- creativity works and w- the place it, it- To me, creativity is like it's a soulmate, it's a mentor, it's a buddy Yeah ... it's a, it's, it's a safe space. It's, it's a mirror. It's, it's just amazing what creativity can do for you. Yeah. And it's like, for me, it's a conversation.

So what I learned at Academy of Arts is that you have to put your easel, and then you have your painting up, and w- along the way I decided, I think it must be past my 50s, I decided I can't, I can't sit still in front of my painting. It's just not feasible. Mm-hmm. This is not what my soul wants anymore.

Yeah. So I have my painting, my canvas on the floor. On the floor? So I can move from the four different [00:16:00] directions. I can approach it for the four different directions, the four different sides. Okay. Okay. I can move into the painting, and I ha- can have a conversation with it. Yes. It's like a dance. Yes. So I dance around and I go in and out, and I, I, I just, I'm just one with, with what is happening and it's like a kind of conversation transformation that is.

Yes. I'm, I'm rumbling sometimes with the emotions that want to show up and express themselves and, and it, it's, it's like, it's like a movie. Yeah. So cool. And you ... I, I don't even know that I'm in the movie, but I'm part of it. Mm. Mm. And then you... And then I sit back and I look at the movie and go like, "Oh, that's interesting."

Mm. "I didn't know that was in, I didn't know it was in me." Mm. "I didn't know that was, wanted to be expressed. I didn't know that needed space." Mm. And, and all is, yeah. Yeah. So good. So one of my kind of, I don't know what you call them, mottos is, um, [00:17:00] creativity is an opportunity for a, a powerful conversation with your soul.

So that's, you know, the conversation with your soul is we're s- we're, we're linked here. We're very aligned, right? Absolutely. Because I l- I, I listened to some of your, recordings and I thought like, wow. I mean, we're at the other end of the, of the, of the world, but I felt like, ooh, ah. This is like soul sister material.

It's amazing how you can feel... I, I could resonate so much. Yeah. That's good. That's really good. Yeah. And, um, I want to say to you on the floor thing, my easel actually, like, goes flat, so y- you- Yes ... you need one of those. So then you can stand- Fast ... and go from every angle. What I, what I discovered is I have used a table before.

Yeah. And it's too near So I like- Yes. Okay ... to approach it and then go back again. Oh, from above. Mm. Yes. And it's really- [00:18:00] How cool ... it's, so I have, like, one meter and a half between me and my canvas when I stand upright. Yeah. I'm ... So- Yeah ... it, it's, it's a different feel. I have used the, the- Mm ... the table before because I, I also make very small- Okay

paintings. I call them You Are Not Alone because I discovered that- Okay ... speaking up about toxic relationship, I discovered that so many survivors has felt, have felt alone. Mm. And I thought, "But we should not feel alone because we are so many." Mm. And by the way, it's not us. The blame is not on us. Mm. It's, it's so subtle, and the manipulation is so subtle, and it starts really, really well.

Mm. And all the people who have been in toxic relationships that were independent, really smart and, and, empathic people. But when you come out on the other side, you're weak. You don't know who you are anymore. Yeah. And people most of the time say that. But, we're smart people, and still we have been drawn in and manipulated and, Mm.

Mm ... intoxicated. So [00:19:00] what I want to say to people with these small paintings is, "You're not alone. You're not the only one." Mm. But I can, I can sit at the table and, and make the small paintings on the table. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah. Most of the times- The big ones ... I'm standing. Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, I'm standing.

So- when I was looking at your paintings on your website, I could see that- Mm ... you know, the color is amazing and it's, you know, the abstraction and the impact- Mm ... that you're trying to create. And I love exploring kind of the deeper, like, nuances and the meanings kind of in the art.

So when I was first looking at it, um, I found it really interesting that the first words that kind of came into my mind were violence, power, and beauty. They were the three, first three words I thought of. So I'm guessing that's intentional- Mm ... maybe even without you, you know, really realizing it. And is that something that you hear a lot, you know?

Like, it was that the violence of kind of the paint and the, the way that it's spread across the canvas there, it's just, is very powerful. [00:20:00] It's the first time I hear violence. The- Mm. So the violent and ... No. I know that this one is a really bold one, so it feel- Yeah ... it feels very b- violent as well. Yeah. I try to change these, uh, so most of the times I have the happy ones behind me, but today I have this one.

Yeah. The violent one. The, the bold, the bold and daring one. Yeah. It's, uh- Well, I wo- I wonder where you go with that though. Like, if, if, like it's a beautiful thing because obviously, you know, it kind of, you're, you're mirroring kind of your advocacy work and your, you know, awareness work- Mm

through your art as well, right? Mm-hmm. You know, it's this real power imbalance and, you know, all the color and the, you know, the, the emotions, um, and the anger and all of the stuff that's sort of around it. But, there's so many layers to it, I'm guessing. So it's- Mm. Mm ... it's not just violence, it's not just power.

You know? There is a beauty in it. You know, what is- Absolutely ... what are the words that you kind of f- when you, when you're thinking about your art and what it means to you and what you want it to mean to other people, what are [00:21:00] some of the words that you come up with? That's a very, very good question. I'm not sure whether or not I, whether, whether I know the answer to, to it.

Oh my God, Sam. You know what's happening? When I paint, most of the times words come up. Yeah. And I have a piece of paper next to my painting and I write them down. Yeah. Because I don't know yet what I'm expressing. I'm just- No ... following the inside going outside. Yeah, the feeling. So I just follow the flow and the feeling and the, like tapping into something.

I don't know. Yeah. So I'm... What I actually express is where I am in my journey, and I'm still on a healing journey. Mm-hmm. I'm still not fully healed. Mm-hmm. It takes a while to heal. It's amazing when I start talking about it. People say, "Yes, but Carine, it's only words, so it, it doesn't harm that much."

And I go like, "Well, it... I'm, I'm..." I didn't know who I was anymore, and I'm still on the path of fully recovering- Mm ... and fully, talking in an honest and authentic way [00:22:00] where I am in my journey. Mm. I'm not fully healed. Mm. So I'm on the healing path. So I try to express through my art where I am in a very authentic way.

Mm. So I don't think about what my art means. I don't think about words. When I hear some words inside of me, I will put them down on a piece of paper. Yeah. So this one is called Forward, and it's because that's what I felt, moving forward. Yeah. but, so I'm not thinking about it because I really believe that in your, when you're fully expressing yourself as you are- Yeah

you should be fully there, not thinking about the rest of the people, just being present to what's happening inside of you. Yes ... and then showing yourself naked to the world. And perhaps- Yes ... it will resonate, and perhaps it will not resonate, and that's not my responsibility. Yes. Yes, yes. Yes, beautiful.

And that's exact- I believe that too. In the creative process, it's kind of not really up to you. You know, you're kind of, you're flowing with it. [00:23:00] But I guess there's- Mm ... part of my, my work that is also about being, the witness. So being the witness- Mm ... to your own work and allowing it to reveal itself to you over time.

and that's, you know, where the words come in. You know, in terms of like, ah, you know, that mark over there, you know, that's what that's about, and this splash of color here. You know what I mean? So- Yes ... yeah, how, how does your process kind of go with that witnessing, side? Like, once the artwork's finished and it's hanging around for, you know, months or years later, you probably look at it and go, "Ooh."

you know, you're seeing something new. Yes. And, some- so at the exhibition, uh, last week somebody asked me, "How long does it take you to make a painting?" And I always ... I was so surprised with that question. and most of the time it's because they look at the prices and then they look at me, they go like, "How long does it take?"

It took me 60 years to make that painting Yes, yes ... [00:24:00] because it's the inside out. And sometimes I can e- the, the feeling is ready and I can express it in one weekend, and sometime I have one of the paintings right up there, I'm in my art studio right now- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and it has been sitting there for months because I'm still rum- rumbling with it.

Yes. It's still not clear. Uh, the, the expression is not, I ca- it cannot be born yet, so I have to wait- Mm-hmm ... and see- Yeah ... and be around and, and, and see what's happening. Mm-hmm. And, and sometimes it go really quick and sometimes it takes time. It's, Most of the times I get big insights when I'm at the exhibition.

When I have an exhibition and I have my- Mm-hmm ... my paintings up and I look at them, I go like, "Oh, now I understand." Yeah. It's like- That's what I mean, yeah. Wisdom is being released from it. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's, it's like when you go through a situation- You finally get to meet ... Yes. Yes. That's a, that's a good way of putting it.

It's- It's like perhaps I see it with fresh eyes because it has been in my art studio [00:25:00] drying or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And then you put it up, you go like, "Oh." And sometimes I put something up and go, "Oh, but that's not ready," and I just pack it again. Oh, do you? Because I understand... Yes, I understand. Oh, okay. Oh, no, no, no, no.

That's not ready. Okay. Okay. It's like it doesn't say anything. It doesn't touch me. Mm-hmm. It doesn't resonate. Um, I mean, so I'll, I'll take it off the wall and I'll put something on differently.

I mean, it- Well, it's your exhibition ... I think the- It's your art after all, right? Yes, but it's, uh, the journey of an artist I think is the most, to me, the most daring, bold journey you can, you can choose. Mm-hmm. Because it has all to do with personal development- Mm ... getting to know yourself more- Yeah ... layer after layer.

being bold enough to show yourself as you are- Yeah ... not hiding the, the dark stuff- Mm ... as I did before. Yeah. so it's a really bold and courageous journey. Yeah. And I think it's, if you start doing [00:26:00] it, it will, you w- y- you have to really want this. Yes. And interesting you mention the word, um, layers, you know, because I feel like, um, the layers bit is important.

I think people, they, they they wanna know too soon. You know, you can bury a lot in those layers, right? And people won't ever really know that it's buried in there unless you tell them. Do you know what I mean? Do you do that as well? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I don't know whether I- It's conscious Yeah But, I mean, when I start expressing myse- when I feel that I need to express, that something needs to be expressed and, or I want to rumble with, uh, w- when I speak about this hidden system, people come up with, insights or stories that- Mm-hmm

really resonate or that hurt me really. And then I need to rumble with that- Mm-hmm ... with that emotion. Mm-hmm. Because I, I can feel [00:27:00] angry and I, I... But I know that it's not in the first layer. The gold is not in the first layer. Yeah. The first layer is just an expression of the raw feeling. Yeah. And then the next layers come, and with the next layers come, connection, love- Yeah

care- Yeah ... insight, uh, small details. It's, it's, it's, it's growing. And you know, when there was corona, I had... I, I heard so many people saying, "Oh, I'm at home. I would like to create, and I don't know how to start." So I had some master classes that I started- Okay ... to, via webinars. And what struck me the most is that everybody wanted to have an end result as soon as possible.

Yes, as soon as possible. To show anybody else. And after corona, I just stopped with the master classes because that's not the aim for me at all. No. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it felt so hollow. And I just stopped it. And it was financially good. Mm-hmm. But I just couldn't. Mm. It just res- Mm ... didn't resonate with me anymore.

So I think the work you do is- Mm ... is [00:28:00] far better. Mm. It's slow, but it's- Mm ... it's, it takes time to connect with your creative self- Yeah ... again, uh, with your journey, with who you are. But there, there's so much beauty in that journey. Yeah, so much beauty. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Is it...

Yeah. Do you see that- Mm ... when you work with clients that they, they want to go for end results first, and that you have to, like, educate them a bit about- Yeah. I'm... I mean, that's where I'm meeting people, I think. You know, when there's a lot of this doubt and kind of performance, you know, where the external- Mm

validation is more important. And like you said, it's like, well, let's rush to the finish line. Let's finish the painting. Yes. But actually, you know, where the real beauty and the real gold and the real kind of, energy is, is in the process. So if you can fall in love with the process- In the process ... then you fall in love with the art, you know, because it holds- Yes

pieces of you, right? It's not about the end result. And obviously, we all wanna make nice paintings [00:29:00] or paint the... You know, like, we all wanna be, um, satisfied with the end result. But at the same time, that's not the most important part. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. See what I mean?

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I think, uh, the process is under-evaluated. Yes. But it's because of the, It's like going to a ther- if you go in therapy. I've been in therapy many times- Yeah. ... because I, I needed to get up. I need to build my resilience. I need to- Yeah ... to understand what was happening to me. Yeah. So, and it's the journey with the therapist- Mm-hmm

which is so important because- Mm ... you have that conversation, you have eye-opening moments, you have doubts- Yeah ... you have... You, you're building something together. Yeah. It's a relationship. It's the same with art. A relationship. You're building a relationship with yourself. Yeah. And it's so cool to see that happening and to see, to, uh, discover ki- Mm

sides of yourself that you didn't know before. Yeah, absolutely. So powerful. Still, I'm six- I'm 62 and I'm still discovering things. I can't [00:30:00] wait to discover more. Mm. Isn't this amazing when you dare to open up to yourself, when you dare to create from the point of, uh, your soul and your heart, that you get to know yourself even more?

Yeah. Yeah. So- And the process is just lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, so why do you think then that, creative expression and art and that process that we just spoke about, why do you think that's so powerful in transforming kind of all the yucky stuff in us, all of our challenges into something beautiful?

First and, and foremost for ourselves Mm I think it's a healing journey Mm. I think th- this, this is the best present you can give yourself Yeah To- And is that because it gives us time to sit with ourselves, to hold ourselves, to heal ourselves, to pr- process what's happened to us? Is that, is that why?

Yeah. Yeah. It's your safe [00:31:00] space. Yeah. Yeah. It's your own, it's creating your own safe space where you can fully show up the way you are. Mm. You don't have to pretend anything, you just can... And what, if you don't want to show it, you just put it in the bin, it's okay. Yeah, exactly. Or you, or whatever. I mean- Yeah

you don't have to, you ha- you don't have to be the art- artist who goes to exhibitions and, and wants to... I want to know whether my art resonates, so I think exhibitions are really interesting. Mm-hmm. I'm a really, I'm introverted. Mm-hmm. I don't like to be around many people because it's- Yeah ... it, I'm very sensitive and open, so it like- Yeah

drains me. Yeah. But I'm really, I'm a, I'm a h- I like humans. Yes, it's- I like pets, I like pets as well. But I mean, and I'm really interested in, in whether it resonates or not, why it doesn't resonate, why it does resonate, so I go into conversations with people who come in- Mm-hmm ... and go like- Mm-hmm ... "Ugh, I don't like this," I go like, "Oh, that's interesting.

Tell me. I wanna know." Yes. Yes. Because I get [00:32:00] information back why it's, it doesn't resonate, and that's interesting. Yeah. But I started, after the death of my mom, I started to, create art installations. Okay. Because I wanted to, express... I'm looking for ways to express the invisible through art. Yeah.

And I think art installations give me that opportunity. And it's, I'm just s- I have just started, so I tested two art s- installations now. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Last week. Mm-hmm. And it's interesting to see what kind of conversations come out there out of that, when people look at the art installations and they turn around, they look at me, and we- Yeah

we start talking about it. Mm. And I thought like, "Oh, wow, this is so much information I get now." I can rumble with it in my art studio again and see what will come out of that. So I was so- It's- And, yeah ... is that because it's taking up more space, do you think? Um. Or does it have more impact because it's taking up more space?

It doesn't take that much space at all, actually. It's not a [00:33:00] big art installation, but it, I think it's because I, I have found the right words to express, or the right questions to ask through the art installation, that people start to think and reflect. Okay. I see. So one of the installations I had was a big canvas, and I had...

I don't have them with me. I had, I had made some eyes, really drawn very, like, childish-like. Yeah, yeah. Open eyes, closed eyes, and half. And I would ask the people that come in, "Can, would you like to parti- I, I would like you to participate in my art installation. The question is, if you have been through a difficult period or a hard season in your life, did you feel seen?"

Did you feel overlooked or something in between, not sure? And then I had some words that could choose, but they could choose their own words. And I had my first one, my own, on. Mm-hmm. And they were closed eyes, and it said- Mm ... lonely. I felt lonely. And I remember the first lady came in and she said, "Oh, I know."

And she took the [00:34:00] open eyes, she put it next to mine, and her word was, "When I was going through a difficult relationship, a difficult situation in my life, I felt seen. And the word that comes up for me is I felt embraced." And I was like, "What?" "Wow, how lucky you are. What a gift that you have a network and friends and people that, care and love you so much that you felt-" Mm

embraced while you were going through tough times." And she looked at me s- like, "Why wouldn't they?" And I told about my story. Mm. When I left a toxic relationship, everybody looked away. Yeah. I felt unseen and really alone. And she said, "I didn't know that was so special." So because of the se- Mm ... the, the, the, the conversation you have around that art installation, you come closer with the audience and closer- Yeah

with the visitors. Mm. And I have so many insights from that experience that I can take further on with me in the next things that I make, because it has [00:35:00] transformed me as a human being, and it will transform my art- Mm ... for sure. Mm. And so do you think that this helped you communicate with the world in a stronger way or a more powerful way, you know?

Is that, is that what it is? Is it, is that how you're c- you're getting your voice out there- Mm ... is through your art and your art installations now? is it about communication and connection? I think it's about inviting people in into looking behind the scenes of something that nobody sees today. Mm. Or asking- Uh, some-

the hard questions, right? Asking the hard questions. As- Yes, but not- Getting people to think about things, you know- Yeah ... that maybe they don't normally think about. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I had another ar- art installation where you had two shirts, a man's shirts, and I know it's not only when men that are, uh, the abuser.

You have women as well. Yeah. Yeah. A man's shirt and a women's shirt, and it had some tags on it, and the, the art installation was You Are [00:36:00] Tagged, just to make things visible. How do people see the abuser? Yeah. Charming, loving, friendly, fun, smart- Mm ... char- charismatic. How do they see the vis- the, the survivor?

And then it had all these tags on there as well. Mm. But at the backside of her shirt, it had how she felt. I doubt. I'm not sure anymore. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm tired. Mm. I'm disoriented. So I had all these tags behind. Yeah. And then I had a long canvas with all, like, marks that said, um, uh, death by a thousand cuts.

Yeah. Uh, being... Just all the chips, all the little chips. Chip, chip, chip, chip. Yep. One, two, three, four, five. Very powerful. One, two, three, four, five. Yeah. And then you, you see lo- people looking at it and, and then they turn around, and you see they want to have a conversation about it. Mm. Mm. And that, to me, that was powerful because now I can, inspire them to be a bit more open.

Yeah. Not to judge that quickly. [00:37:00] Yeah. And to feel in their body what's happening when you s- wh- what is this about? And the most strange thing- Mm ... that happened to me, I have... I created canvases. So I returned from my mother's death- with a severe... I had fever. My body was all over the place. Went back into therapy, and then after therapy I could feel there was something that was not expressed in myself that I wanted to express.

And I took one of the largest rolls of, you have like these canvases on a roll- Mm-hmm ... big rolls. Mm-hmm. And I took one out, and it was really big. And I go like, "Okay, what do you want to express?" Because I could feel the nervousness still in my body, and we were already- Yeah ... six or x-mo- eight months past my mother's death.

I go like, "What is this?" Mm. And I started expressing it, and I took... instinctively I took red and the biggest brush I had. It was like this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I started, like, expressing. And I remember that I shouted and I s- poured everything in. And after five minutes I was, like, sweaty and I couldn't, I couldn't go any further, and it was like anger.[00:38:00]

Mm. And I had never expressed any anger. I mean, in our society- Okay ... as a woman, to express anger is not, an easy thing- Yeah ... to do. Yeah. And I thought like, "But it's still there." Yeah. So I came back, and f- 15 days- Mm ... five minutes of rage on the canvas. Wow. And then I thought, "Okay, done. I'll let it dry."

And then I could feel there was more. And then the, the grief showed up. Okay. And I had a canvas, but it was different size, different colors. Mm. And I, I just went into the grief and I just made space for it. And then I thought, "Okay, done." And I could feel there was more. And this is the most uh, interesting process I have ever lived, worked through, created in my life.

mm-hmm. And the next thing that came up was fear. I'm not a fearful person. Mm-hmm. But fear came up. Mm-hmm. And it was this, a smaller canvas, and it was all dark and, and, and I go, "Oh my God." And when it finished, it wasn't [00:39:00] finished for me, and I started cutting through the canvas. Okay. So it l- it's like really ugly.

And I decided at the last moment to take that canvas with me to the exhibition I had last week. Okay. And I put it und- underneath the canvas that was coming down with the hun- the thousand cuts. Mm. Death by a thousand cuts. I put it underneath it, and it said, "The quiet collapse." Mm. This canvas doesn't scream any longer because it has screamed already.

Mm. And I had a whole text. And, it's in the void when you, when you don't know anymore where you are that- Yeah ... the biggest transformation comes. Yeah. And so many people... And I said, "Oh, do you have a favorite?" Because I had really happy paintings as well up the, up the wall. Yeah. I had two rooms. I said, "Do you have any favorites?"

And many peoples took me back to the, to the backside, to the side where you had that really dark canvas on the floor. Mm-hmm. She said, "This is the canvas that resonates the most with me." And I was so surprised. Okay. [00:40:00] So I think there's a calling for me- Mm ... to be as honest as possible on the canvas. Mm. Not to, not, not to censor myself- No

in expressing how it feels or how it felt. So I have very happy paintings, and I have everything now, but I wasn't- Mm ... like this before. What a great place to be, though. I mean, that's a great evolution, isn't it? Yeah. As a creative and as an artist to sort of have that freedom, 'cause I think that that- Freedom.

Yeah. Yes. 'Cause I think that freedom, it doesn't come easily. You know, you can intellectually think, "Yeah, that's where I wanna go," but actually doing it is another thing, you know? So that's powerful, right? It's really cool. It took me so- ... many years. I mean, it doesn't come... It's work. Yeah. That's why I say that the artist journey- Yeah

is like, it's, it's, it's a wonderful discovery of who you are and who you can be. Yeah. Yeah. You can [00:41:00] dream on canvas. With, with no filter, without the cens- censor, you know? Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly it. Because what I understand now is I've been keeping the dark side to myself for such a long time. Mm. And I didn't, I didn't give that to people, which is, which is nonsense because so many people recognize the dark sides.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They... There was a l- a, a, a young lady, I think she must have been 18 years old, and she pointed at that canvas, and she just looked at me, and she said, "That's exactly how I felt." And I looked at her, I said, "And that's exactly how I felt as well." Mm. "Know that you're not alone." And she started to cry.

Oh, wow. All the tear up Bless. Yes, because, because you're not alone. You, you- No ... have this... We all, we all are humans. It goes up and down. And, and, and when you share your highs but also your lows- Yeah ... then there's connection. As you say, what is the meaning behind my... I don't know. [00:42:00] I'm still figuring it out because I've switched so much since 2024.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm still learning and discovering myself now. Yeah, and you'll pro- probably never will stop, right? It, it's, it's a lifelong journey, so Ah. So all the women who are curious about using creativity to step into their power, who might be healing after, you know, breaking free from domestic violence- Mm

what powerful message or question would you like to leave them with today? Oh, that's a good question. I know the healing's, the healing journey is not a 20 days program. No, it's not. It's something that takes a long time. Take your time. Mm. So don't start comparing yourself with somebody else. And what I understood is that creating, uh, creating s- something with your hands, getting out of your head because most of the times when [00:43:00] you quit the toxic relationship, the oppressor is still in your head.

So you have to detox. You have to be aware that he or she is still in your head. Mm-hmm. And that you have to be mindful. So I'm started meditating. There's so many things I started to just to heal. Yeah. But creating, will give you the freedom to express yourself the way you are. And you don't have to show.

It can be on a little piece of paper. Just throw it away. It's okay. But express yourself and feel what you wanna express. Go inside yourself and just feel, and if you want to just pour anger onto a canvas, just go. Mm. It's okay. Mm. Just make sure that you listen to yourself. Mm. Don't listen to anybody else because I've, I've been so sensitive and so open to what other people said, and so I was such a pleaser.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I've been a pleaser my whole life, and, uh, not being a pleaser is, is like, it's like a challenge. But making art for yourself, [00:44:00] you don't have to please yourself. You can just try to be honest, and it's an exercise you can do every day. Mm. An exercise s- just, just doesn't sound like a very-

happy thing to do. But I mean, just w- I mean, you can, you can... If you commute, you can have, like, a small book and just, take some pencils and just li- express yourself every day. It's okay. Just- Pour it out of yourself And- And no one else has to see it, right? It's not for anybody- You can keep it to yourself

to see. Yeah. Create as if you're on the moon and nobody's watching. Yeah, that's a good one. As if you're on the moon. Yes. Love it. And nobody's watching, and you... And yeah, because it's for you, and I think too many, especially women, are creating art for somebody else. Yes, exactly. Yeah. We shouldn't do that.

For, for our self-worth. It's not, it's not the way it should be. Absolutely. No. No. Yeah. So how can people get to see your beautiful art and, all of the [00:45:00] work that you're doing, Carine? it's an easy place to go to.

So it's my name, Carinevanhee.com, and you will find my artwork, the talk, the, the public talking, the information about the book. You can get them, all over the world on e-book, but only in Europe as a print. Mm-hmm. Uh, because I decided to self-publish. I decided not to wait for a publisher- Yeah ... to, to work.

Mm-hmm. I, I go like, "I have to get this out in the world now." Yeah. Because it freed me up so much. You go like, "What the fuck?" Mm-hmm. I mean, I thought it was me. I thought it was, I was the one to blame. I was the one to- It's not. It's not. And, and it's, I'm gonna say it again, when I talk to other survivors, the stories are different, but the ingredients of the hidden system are the same.

Mm-hmm. It's just, it's like I couldn't believe it. So please educate yourself if you feel like, "I'm not sure whether I'm in a toxic relationship or not." Educate yourself, read the book- Mm-hmm ... and start creating. Start listening to yourself. [00:46:00] Excellent. Thank you so much for coming and chatting with me today, Carine.

Love talking to you. Yeah, it was, uh, wonderful.