Career Contrast
Career-focused informational interviews from the perspective of a talent expert.
Career Contrast
Nani Vishwanath - Sr. Strategist, Inclusive Design
Joining me today is Nani Vishwanath, Senior Strategist of Inclusive Design at REI Co-op, illuminating how inclusive design principles create better products and experiences for everyone. Nani is also a Consultant with Courage Collective, a workplace culture consultancy.
In this episode, we discuss Nani's career trajectory from college studying to be an orthodontist, to working in higher education, and ultimately her work in the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion space. We discuss how DEI came to be, it's business function and what jobs exist, and how it ultimately drives more productive business.
Learn more about Courage Collective at https://thecouragecollective.co/
Mentioned in the Episode:
- USA Today article: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2025/03/04/trump-dei-backlash-explained/81170427007/
- REI Cooperative Action Fund: https://www.reifund.org/
- PBS NewsHour: The History of Diversity, Equity & Inclusion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqWIjZd5k2k
Visit CareerContrastPod.com for more information. Want to tell your story? Contact us at Careercontrast@gmail.com.
Michael Lane-Smith. As a career recruiter, I'm fascinated by the variety of job paths or careers that people commit to, and career contrast is all about work how people work, the state of work and in each episode we'll explore questions that provide insight into the problems people solve in their jobs every day and ultimately seek to capture the experience of an informational interview from the perspective of a talent expert. Joining me today is Nani Vishnu Nani. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for coming.
Nani Vishwanath:Nani Vishnu Happy to be here.
Michael Lane Smith:thanks, michael um, as always, my first question what did you want to be when you grew up?
Nani Vishwanath:so you know, the only job that I ever thought about what I wanted to be when I grew up was when I was quite young. I was like, I want to say third or so grade, um, and that was to be the president of the United States, who was also a cartoon artist on the side. That was my whole plan and since then obviously I no longer want to be that. I'll make that clear. But I never really had a dream job. I never could really articulate what that was. And I think, knowing now what I do, it makes sense, because what I wanted to do, what I do now, what did not exist when I was a child, or when I was in school, or even forging the beginning of my career.
Michael Lane Smith:That's awesome. So, yeah, what is your job title now? And, yeah, where do you work? If you're willing to share that as well, Sure.
Nani Vishwanath:So I have two jobs. One is Senior Strategist of Inclusive Design at REI Co-op, and the second is a facilitator and consultant with the Courage Collective.
Michael Lane Smith:Right on, let's talk about the REI job first. Could you tell us the story of how you got your job, maybe your career path up to this point?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, I've had a pretty winding career path. I would say it was far from linear and you know, in my days of which I'll mention student affairs and spending time with college students I would often underline the fact that career paths don't have to be linear and that often felt like a breath of fresh air for people who have been told their whole lives to have a game plan and a straight line toward where they would be. But I graduated from the University of Puget Sound way back in the olden days of 2009. When I was at that particular college, I started out with my batch trying to pursue a bachelor's in chemistry because my dad had really convinced me that being an orthodontist would be the right career path for me. Spoiler alert did not pursue that career path and in fact it was so terrible at some of those classes my heart wasn't in it right and I didn't know why I was doing that. So I give a lot of credit to my first year advisor who sat me down after my first semester of college and said what do you like? Because my grades weren't good, I wasn't doing well academically and she asked me what I liked and I told her I liked art and she said I want you to take an art class, and I had to kind of reshape my path. I was the first child of immigrant parents, and going to a liberal arts school and taking an art class was far beyond the plan that I had been set out on. So I did, though, and I started taking art classes, and I also started taking business classes at that time, thinking about the combination of the two, specifically within, kind, of the marketing space, and I ended up pursuing a business degree and had an art minor, and then I graduated at the peak of the recession, and that was just a really challenging time for folks who didn't have a close connection to a lot of workplaces to be able to land a job, and so I spent some time kind of grappling with that and ended up back at my alma mater working in their alumni office and spent about a few years there building the beginning of my career, doing alumni relations and knowing what I do.
Nani Vishwanath:Now. I was actually doing some work in DEI. Back then. I was supporting alumni affinity gatherings, particularly for the LGBTQ plus community, for Black alumni, and starting to understand what it meant for folks to be able to connect based on those identities. At that time I also started managing a student group and I fell in love with that. Started managing a student group and I fell in love with that. I fell in love with learning about how students grew and developed and that's when I decided maybe I should get a degree in this. So I went back to school and pursued my master's in education, specifically in student development administration, at Seattle University and spent a couple of years there really starting to learn about my passion in higher education and specifically in supporting students in their own development. And then I really started to learn that it was the students who were in from marginalized backgrounds or who were grappling with a variety of experiences. That really, really was what. That was where my passion was is really helping them to understand who they were as leaders.
Michael Lane Smith:Yeah.
Nani Vishwanath:So that took me to the university of washington where we crossed paths, and I spent a few years there driving leadership development programs for a number of students and just couldn't say enough good things about the things that I learned there, about the students I interacted with and about what I learned about the world and the way that people approach it. And when we talked about leadership in that role, we talked a lot about who gets to define what leadership is and what are the messages we've been told about leadership that only invite a few, and so those were the things I was starting to kind of open my mind to. After a a few years there. I had had my first child and was needing to figure out my next career step and ended up wanting to take what I had learned in the higher education realm into a new field, and that was into tech.
Nani Vishwanath:And I ended up at what was an employee experience software company and I was on the customer facing side of that company for some time helping different clients or large organizations think about their employee experience and thinking about how they're developing their people and taking care of them and their well-being, and that naturally brought up questions around inclusion, around diversity, around that experience as it relates to people from different identities.
Nani Vishwanath:So I spent a little bit of time on the client facing side and then I ended up in HR and I spent some time in HR doing some HR business partner work, driving the beginning of some diversity and inclusion work, specifically helping grow our employee resource groups and some of that.
Nani Vishwanath:And then 2020 happened and among many other things that happened in 2020, notably, george Floyd was murdered and there was a huge global conversation around DEI and about equity and about people's identities and experiences and systemic oppression, and I started to feel frustrated at that particular tech company about what we were really doing and who was it really for and could we be doing some more. And so some friends of mine at that company and then beyond, we started to put together our own vision of what it could look like to have meaningful dei conversations in the workplace, and that was the birth of the courage collective, which is a workplace consulting and training organization that still lives today and it started off really squarely in the dei training world, but then it blossomed into a broader workplace leadership and culture organization that it is today.
Nani Vishwanath:At that time and I'm getting to your question about how I got to REI, I promise I also started to do some personal advocacy, just knowing what was happening in the moment, knowing how much I had cared about DEI so long, and there was this, finally, this moment where people were paying attention, and so I started reaching out to brands because, as you'll remember, in 2020, a lot of brands started putting out their own commitments to dei these kind of splashy pages on their websites or the black square on instagram or whatever it might have been to indicate that they were a part of this work, and in some cases, that was real and in some cases it wasn't.
Nani Vishwanath:And I started to ask brands some questions, and one particular brand I came across had was Lululemon, and they had put out their own work around DEI at the time and, as a consumer, I was looking at their website and I noticed that a lot of their products had culturally appropriative names, and so I wrote out, wrote a message to them. I was not the only one who did, other people did but I ended up engaging in a conversation with the social media person, engaging in a conversation with the social media person and at first they kind of dismissed me and then I kept at it and eventually it became a larger thing. They pulled the line of clothing that I was, I was critiquing, and they've renamed the product. And then a news story picked it up, the whole story about our engagement and what had happened, and it was. It was an interesting moment and I had never, you know, done that to try to get a new story, but I think it did help share a bit of the impetus behind.
Nani Vishwanath:They're really authentically committing to this work that's when ari I reached out at the time they were doing some work on yoga and wanted to be culturally mindful in that and asked if I would mind being a consultant in that role, as just an outside consultant. And then I happened to see that they were hiring for this job. I realized, oh, I can take these skills that I've honed in all these chapters in my life and actually apply them to a brand persona and how the brand shows up, and that felt really new and exciting. So that is how I got to REI.
Michael Lane Smith:That's awesome. That's awesome and there's a lot of really interesting pieces of wisdom and parts of your journey that I do want to dive into. I'm going to back way up a little bit to your time in higher ed and you know you mentioned getting a master's in education and I guess you know I'm curious from your perspective, would you say that more advanced degree was necessary? Was it required for you to get into that space and ultimately, you know, leading even into HR? Do you think that master's was necessary to get you where you're at today?
Nani Vishwanath:That's a good question. I think, had I stayed in student affairs, which was initially my intent, it was pretty clear that having a master's was necessary in order to grow. I think a lot of higher ed institutions have a pretty clear perspective on you need X degree to be at X level. I think there's maybe a little bit more variance now, but it felt pretty strict when I was pursuing that. So had I stayed in that field? Yes, I don't think it was necessarily like a requirement for the other chapters of my career, but it was certainly helpful. I I went about that degree because of sort of in a transactional way. I thought in order to get these jobs, I need to have this degree.
Nani Vishwanath:But, it became a much more transformational experience On the other side. The school was really really they really really prioritized reflection and kind of holistic growth and I think as a result of that I grew as a person and in my own beliefs around social justice by spending that time with that extra degree.
Michael Lane Smith:Right on. What kinds of stuff did you learn in that master's of education? You mentioned it being very reflective in nature. What was maybe like the core curriculum pieces and the development from there to that more reflective piece? Kind of tell that story, that journey.
Nani Vishwanath:You know, some of it was sort of tactical around, kind of how you run an administration within a higher ed context. We had a course on kind of the legal things that you might face with student life, which was really interesting. So some of that was kind of more tactical. But the other pieces around there were several courses on social justice, a few courses on kind of multicultural growth. But honestly, the most learning I did within that program was I had an apprenticeship where I was working in the leadership development office on the Seattle University campus and working directly with students and that's when I just I just kept learning about the various ways that people enter a college context and the stories and beliefs and experiences that they bring, and that's where my growth happened.
Michael Lane Smith:That's awesome. That's awesome, and you mentioned, ultimately, your current role. Could you remind me of the title?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, senior Strategist, inclusive Design. I just got a promotion this week, so I'm getting used to saying it.
Michael Lane Smith:Congratulations, congratulations, inclusive Design. So you know I want to. I want to go into just a little bit of history about DE&I, make some definitions clear for the audience and just talk about. You know where DE&I came from and you know why I think it's important and why we're having this conversation today. You know the the first thing that comes to mind when I hear DE&I today March 11th 2025, is, I think, immediately about the government, and in the first couple of weeks of this current administration, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the first Black member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, first chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to be African-American was fired from his role. The Coast Guard Admiral, the first woman to be a leader of one of our armed forces, was also fired. The Trump administration put out a bunch of information about being anti-DEI, essentially firing employees in federal government who have worked on these programs or are advocating for these programs, and so obviously we're at a very different point from 2020.
Michael Lane Smith:2020 was a time where I think there was a lot of attention and support in building and enhancing these programs and I should very clearly call out it didn't come from a vacuum. We already spoke to the death of George Floyd. You know him being murdered by a police officer in public, on camera. Those kind of instances also don't happen in a vacuum. I will specifically call back to the 1960s. President John F Kennedy signed an executive order Executive Order 10925, requiring government contractors to take affirmative action to ensure applicants are employed and that employees are treated during employment without regard to their race, creed, color or national origin. The 1960s was a time of violence. I would say I think it's important to call out John F Kennedy, the president who signed that executive order, was assassinated. That same decade, Malcolm X was assassinated, martin Luther King Jr was assassinated and there was lots of other violence in the streets.
Michael Lane Smith:You know with regards to, you know specific policies and procedures codified in government, like redlining, and then, of course, you know a lot of soft power being used to exclude people. And so in 1964, after JFK's assassination, the Civil Rights Act passes, establishes the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which is a government entity responsible for investigating discrimination in government and where employees can file complaints in US court through the EEOC, for discrimination at their private organizations as well discrimination at their private organizations as well. And so, just to be clear, you know those laws, those institutions were created and changed because of widespread abuse and exclusion. And I think we owe a lot to you know that specific effort, that time period to institute change that you know, I think, follows you know those values and you know meets the letter of the law there.
Michael Lane Smith:But, as I said, you know we're at a very different time now. We're at a time where, you know, the EEOC maybe isn't fully disbanded, but certainly it's been clear that the government has put out statements that they're not going to enforce laws previously enforced by the EEOC. And so, you know, obviously I think one could point at these efforts and say you know, now we're clearly making hiring decisions based off of race and gender, at least in the federal government, which you know, according to laws passed by Congress, is illegal and this is a very US centric viewpoint. I know that there's a larger global conversation, at least at my company, about what DE&I looks like, what it's for. I guess my first question, kind of following that diatribe from a historical perspective, is you know, when you think about DE&I, what does DE&I look like, even just in the most basic forms in the workplace? You know from your perspective as someone who's a practitioner of that today.
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, it's a good question, I think unfortunately, given the status of things like you alluded to, I think DEI has become sort of a meaningless acronym in a lot of places. People don't actually understand what it means and what the letters in that acronym actually mean, and that's something that I spend time on whenever I'm having these conversations. And so when we talk about diversity, it is about the representation, it is about who's in the room, who's not, what perspectives are included which are not, and simply understanding that we need a range of those opinions in order to have better outcomes in a lot of different ways. But that's one part of it, and I think a lot of times, people who don't understand DEI want to stop there and say, okay, I see you're just going to try to meet a quota of people from X background and that's it. But it's simply not about that. It is simply you must understand the full acronym.
Nani Vishwanath:So D is about the representation, e is equity right, it's about access, and that can look like access to resources, access to power, access to materials you need. So what I'm doing right now at REI is much more on the brand side, thinking about products we offer and thinking about an industry level of equity. And then the I as inclusion is that idea of feeling a deep sense of belonging in your authentic self and being able to show up and feel like this is a place for me where I really can feel like I belong. And when we look at each part of that acronym, we have to say who gets to feel like they belong, who has access to resources and power, and we need to examine that in any workplace or for any company or organization in order for it to be a place where more people can thrive. And the best part of this work, when it's at its best, is it's better for everybody. It's not about uplifting one community at the expense of another. It is truly about maintaining progress across many, many different communities.
Michael Lane Smith:Yeah, yeah, and you spoke earlier to at your time, I think at UPS, that is, university of Puget Sound, working with affinity gathering at companies I've worked at. I think we've called them affinity groups opportunities for folks who have similar backgrounds but maybe underrepresented backgrounds in their spaces, where they can gather and celebrate each other and receive and give recognition. You know what does that look like from your experience, and how else would you describe affinity groups or affinity gatherings for our listeners?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, I think at a lot of organizations they're called employee resource groups. They can have a number of different names, but they're those kinds of places or communities based on identity or experience, that folks can come together. So I've seen companies that have specific groups for folks from different racial or ethnic backgrounds. I've seen groups for parents or caregivers, I've seen, you know, for the LGBTQ plus community, et cetera, because, simply put, our experiences on this planet are impacted by our identities and it is nice to be able to share space and community with others who understand it and a lot of companies.
Nani Vishwanath:I think what was interesting in 2020 is a lot of companies put ERDs, or employee resource groups, out there, but without the right support they need, and for these groups to be able to really thrive, there needs to be some pieces in order, for example, some resources behind them. We see a lot of employee resource groups that they're asked to do a lot on behalf of the company and there's no pay behind the time that is being asked of them, and there's no pay behind the time that is being asked of them, and so that's something that's highly recommended, also having it clear about what is the scope of their work, because for some employee resource groups. Suddenly they're tasked with educating the rest of the company when really what they need is just to be able to have community with one another. So some of those things need to be in place for these groups to really be able to have success. But having a space where you can relate to somebody based on an aspect of your identity can be so powerful, particularly when that identity is less represented within a workplace.
Michael Lane Smith:Absolutely, absolutely. And you know I always reach back to again. You know these resources, these practices come from a place of. You know we have made mistakes in the past. You know we can do better, we can be more inclusive. We can really benefit as a company, as a culture. You know, from these differences what other types of organizations have you played a role in, participated in, or would you encourage listeners look up if they're interested in learning more about these organizations in, or would you encourage listeners look up if they're interested in learning more about these organizations? Things like ColorCom, which is a communications conference and group for, you know, professionals in the communication space where they can lift each other up.
Nani Vishwanath:You know, speaking from where I am right now at REI, there are so many incredible organizations that are specifically built around gathering folks based on identity and with their relationship to time outside.
Nani Vishwanath:So my own personal experience you know, I've gone to gatherings from an organization called Trail Mixed Collective, which is partially based out of Seattle and he has such a good name and they are specifically bringing women of color together and talking about time outside and organizing activities outside where you can be around people who you share identities with, when that's really not the case often in outdoor industry culture. That's something we're often trying to break is the narrative that outdoor industry has has been so often painted as white, cisgender, able-bodied men. We often joke like a bearded guy hanging off a cliff and wearing a flannel right, and while that man can have his experience outside, it's not the only relationship to nature that there is, and so there are so many groups that are really trying to build different stories, and so so many groups that are really trying to build different stories and so recommend checking out. The REI Cooperative Action Fund is our sort of one of our philanthropic entities, and there's a huge list of groups based on identity that spend time outside and recommend people check them out.
Michael Lane Smith:Yeah, that's awesome. You know, I think at this point in the conversation I'd love to address, you know, a major criticism that I see a lot right now around DE&I, which is, you know that you know, if you are creating these groups that are exclusive to you know, these underrepresented groups, like it's a trail mixed collective, like, as a white person, as a white bearded male wearing flannel, like that space clearly isn't for me. I wouldn't be welcome there. Like, what would you say to someone who had that type of criticism or concern about, about those spaces?
Nani Vishwanath:You know it's. It's a, I think, a natural concern that would come up, and then I think we have to have the conversation about the fact that many of these spaces were created with just these few in mind, and there are so many opportunities already for folks to spend time outside and experience being with others who share those dominant identities. However, for many folks where that feels less comfortable or less prevalent, having a really dedicated, safe space is really meaningful, and there are plenty of groups that want to bring people together across identity, and so we have to understand that people have different relationships with this thing, which is complicated, and we have to make sure folks have the resources that they need, and so, simply put, I guess these things were not built with many in mind, and so, in order for us to get to a more equitable place where folks feel like this outdoors is for them, we have to create targeted, specific opportunities.
Michael Lane Smith:Yeah, I think the reality is mechanisms as a business process are things that people put in place for specific outcomes, and oftentimes as a business, or as things that people put in place for specific outcomes. And you know, oftentimes as a business or as a government, you're trying to make things more efficient and more effective. And you know, oftentimes when you're thinking about efficiency and effectiveness you are targeting very specific outcomes and not keeping in mind, you know, a wider array of considerations. And so you know, I see DE&I from a business perspective as a mechanism for inclusion, as a business process put in place to make sure that the machine that produces money as a business also produces a welcoming community where all people can come and deliver great work, and the benefits of that, I think, are pretty obvious.
Michael Lane Smith:One of my favorite ice cream shops is called Wanderlust and it's an ice cream shop that features flavors from all over the globe. That place wouldn't exist if we didn't have at least a community here in Los Angeles that celebrated that diversity. Speaking of kind of mechanisms as a business process for inclusion, we talked about affinity groups. Are there other kind of mechanisms as a business process for inclusion? We talked about affinity groups. Are there other kind of mechanisms or business processes from a DE&I perspective that you could speak to when it comes to adding value to a company, creating inclusion really anything related to DE&I.
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, I'll spend a minute talking about what I'm really driving right now at REI, which is around inclusive design, and inclusive design and inclusive design is a fairly well-known concept, but the way we think about it is the idea of designing with and for, with being very important part of that with and for marginalized communities, in order to improve the experience or outcomes for everybody, and there are countless examples of this in history. You talked about disability advocacy already. A common reference we use in this space is around the curb cut effect. So if you think about any sidewalk that you come across that has sort of that divot in it for a wheelchair, that was part of disability access work in the 1970s and that was for wheelchairs, right For wheelchair use. However, designed with and for that particular community, the outcomes are better for so many right. We use it now for a bike, for a stroller, with your suitcase, your groceries, whatever it might be. That particular innovation has improved the outcomes for so many different people and there are countless examples of this, like I mentioned in history.
Michael Lane Smith:Even the little robot delivery men use the ramps. Yes, they love those ramps, right?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, totally. Another popular reference we use OXO. It makes a vegetable peeler and that brand. The founder's wife had arthritis and so she was using a metal vegetable peeler day in and day out was hurting her hand. So he, the founder, thought I'm going to create something more comfortable, added that silicone handle and that has changed the household appliance game for everybody. Right? That made the experience better for everybody. So, like I said, there are just so many examples of this and, in terms of efficiency, when we're creating something like this, we're maximizing the outcome for many different people.
Nani Vishwanath:So at REI, an example around this was we were kind of revisiting some of our hike and backpack apparel, specifically a line called Trail Made, which is around sort of this like entry level people who are interested in hiking and backpacking, and we did some listening to various communities, specifically those who represented some marginalized communities, and amazing organizations like Latino Outdoors, 52 Hikes Challenge, the Venture Out Project these are just some awesome organizations to understand what were some of the barriers that they were experiencing, and we learned things like, for example, the intuitive use of a backpack, a hiking backpack. I don't know how to put this on properly, so I'm too intimidated, I'm not going to use it. Everything to the colors People were like can we have less beige in the outdoor industry, please Like? I want to be like myself when I'm wearing this stuff. And then you know, our partner Unlikely Hikers shared with us the real limitations around size inclusivity, both with apparel and gear, when it came to hiking and backpacking, and so, with those insights in mind, we really transformed that particular collection, and it was more size inclusive than ever, both the clothing, the backpacks, the sleeping pads and the sleeping bags.
Nani Vishwanath:Prior to that point, we learned that for many people, they had to bring two backpacking sleeping bags on their trips and zip them together because there was such a limited offering, and so that was a big learning. The colors were bright and fun and joyful. We included easy access to instructions for how to put on the pack right on the material itself. Just a ton of innovation came from that listening, and it made it better for everybody, not just those particular communities, but for a larger outcome. So that's the focus we've been doing is through inclusive design, and it's just been really amazing to witness that is really cool.
Michael Lane Smith:I think one of the important insights that I'm hearing from you and just from our conversation is really, from every business standpoint, there's something people can do Like from recruiting. It's all about how are we assessing candidates and how are we inviting candidates that we're not getting naturally, in marketing it kind of seems similar. You know, how am I building my products? How am I, you know, marketing my products directly to those folks? But also, you know, from the very beginning of the supply chain, like am I planning for those folks? Have you any experience working on like the compliance side or the HR, like business side of the ENI? And how is that maybe different from, say, like the more external facing stuff that we've already talked about?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, there are differences in terms of you know the audiences and sort of the scope of what you're thinking about, but to your point there's there's a lot of similarity asking the question who's this for and why? And and really interrogating that. I think when I worked in HR, I think about recruiting and some of the practices that we were interrogating that had just been as they were for a long time. You know, I remember hearing somebody on an interview panel and they're in their recap saying afterward yeah, you know, I wouldn't take that person out for a beer. So I don't know. You know, like these kinds of things that had happened just historically, that were like let's revisit that question, is that actually necessary? Just going for a beer with you actually need to be part of the evaluation of this candidate.
Nani Vishwanath:No. So those are some of the questions. But also, you know, culturally, who who gets to thrive in an organization and asking those questions, for example, learning about gatherings was. It was an interesting one where we would. We would hear from people about who who kind of cultural gatherings were for At one company.
Nani Vishwanath:I remember they would happen, you know, in the afternoons after work at a bar, and so there were a lot of people who then felt like the exclusion One, people who didn't choose to drink for whatever reason. That might be felt like they couldn't join. People who were parents or caregivers couldn't join, like they couldn't join. People who were parents or caregivers couldn't join. And there was all these different folks who these gatherings weren't built for and thus were missing out on this big culture building opportunity at the organization. So kind of everything, from the way you hire people to the way they experience the culture, to the way their performance is evaluated, to the way they are able to speak up in a meeting. Every aspect of that experience is worth looking at with that lens of who is this for and why.
Michael Lane Smith:You know, I think one of the big concerns I'm hearing a lot today is you know, de&i is hiring folks who are unqualified or is essentially somehow the antithesis of meritocracy. And when I think about the practices, you know from my perspective as a recruiter, you know the practices that I've employed, you know, as a result of DE&I, really have been meritocracy related making sure that the best candidate is the one that gets considered and making sure I'm presenting the best possible candidates out there, requiring me as a recruiter to do a lot more work in the upfront, making sure that includes a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds. How would you respond to someone who is concerned about you know people's qualifications, you know if they're hired as a result of maybe a company being more DE&I focused and you know I framed that question probably wrongly, but that is the perception, I think, for some people how would you respond to that?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, that's a lot of the commentary I've been seeing and receiving when we share perspective on DEI, and I think the clearest way I can say it is in order for a true meritocracy to exist, there needs to be DEI. Right, you can't actually evaluate based on merit unless you remove some of these other biases and allow for a wider array of people to be evaluated within that meritocracy. We're not lending more bias to the folks who went to the same school as us or who answered a question in a similar way to us or who did something that really mirrored everything in the way it always has been right. There's so many opportunities for bias just in the hiring space and if we're actually really focusing in on the merit of the candidate and removing these other elements, then it really allows us to choose the person who's the better candidate for the role retail.
Michael Lane Smith:Is your path into the DE&I space, into the DE&I marketing space? Is that unique to you? Do you think that other folks should follow similar paths, or what other paths might you?
Nani Vishwanath:see people taking into roles like yours. I don't think that there's a clear cut path to DEI. I think people enter it in a lot of different ways. I do think education there's a large overlap with social justice and so I think a lot of folks who have spent time in education are naturally starting to develop those skillsets and ways of thinking, and so there's, I think, a considerable overlap there. But there are many other ways into it. I think in no matter what sector you're in, there are questions to ask about the identities and experiences of humans, and being able to hone that lens and being able to ask those questions and curiosity will be a pathway to driving that work at an organization. So don't think there's a clear cut path, but I think the common thread is really that curiosity and understanding of people.
Michael Lane Smith:I fully agree. Yeah, I think there's probably opportunity for anyone in any role to kind of lean into the decisions that are being made around them, their own decisions, to be able to be more thoughtful and inclusive in those. I think when I started my career in recruiting I only really saw DE&I roles as a really an HR function, and at the time I think it was. You know, you see a DE&I recruiter or a comms manager, that's a single contributor up into the head of marketing at a company. In the time since there's been a lot of change, I think these teams are a lot bigger. In my mind, there's a lot more opportunity. Tell me a little bit about your experience there. Is that the case? Am I making the right assumptions just from my own experience?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, you are. They're typically at a lot of organizations. If there was anybody, a lot of times it would be just somebody's side job, that wasn't a part of their title, but it would usually be limited to HR. In 2020, we saw a huge spike of chief diversity officers and some more DEI offices.
Nani Vishwanath:Unfortunately, since then, a lot of those have come away and a lot of offices have been have been stripped of their resources as well, and my, my gut on that is that none of very few of those folks were set up to succeed. A lot of them were reactively put in place so that the company could be on the right side of history and say we have a chief diversity officer and a team, but they weren't given the resources or the goals or the strategic insights in order to actually have a successful path forward. So now we're at this interesting place where a lot of companies have dropped their DEI offices, some have kept them and we're in an interesting place where there's now this legislation and executive orders where companies are wondering if they can keep that, if they have to rename the work, if they have to change the work, depending on their level of federal funding and other implications. So it's another interesting inflection point and it's pretty wild the up and downs that have happened within the last five years.
Michael Lane Smith:I think, one big question for probably young folks thinking about getting into this space. You know, if I want to go to a company that supports DE&I, maybe right now, at this moment, it's a little more clear than it used to be. In the future, there's no necessary guarantee that it will be easy to tell, and so how would you describe the thought process that you've had in the past? Thinking through, you know, is this a company that's serious about DE&I, and or is this a company that is I can't remember the exact term but like just social media washing, you know, for the likes and digital hugs?
Nani Vishwanath:I think it's these moments of challenge where you can really see how a company stands Like.
Nani Vishwanath:If you see a company continuing to be thoughtful about their marketing, to be thoughtful about the messaging they're putting out, to be thoughtful about the way they show up the products they offer, that is a really great indicator of their resilience and the depth of their commitment to this work.
Nani Vishwanath:Similarly, you know, when I was looking for companies to work, I was looking at the variety of teams that were related to DEI. If it was just that one person in HR, I'd seen that before and I know how tough that is. What was a good indicator for me at REI was that I saw this work happening across the business in different pockets, and so that felt like much more integrated work than something surface level and reactive. So those are a couple of the things that I would look for, but I do think this moment of challenge is where companies will really show up, and I'm, you know, while I feel for folks who are, you know, employees at Target. I think it's so interesting and insightful to see the consumer response and to show us really in an evidence-based way that people are shopping with their values, and if a company can't stand committed to them, they're going to face the impacts of that if a company can't stand committed to them, they're going to face the impacts of that.
Michael Lane Smith:Yeah, yeah, I remember in the early days in my comms agency we talked a lot about people shopping with their values and putting stances out there that are authentic for each company and I think it's really important that folks look to is the company speaking to DE&I in a way that's authentic to their business, or are they, to your earlier point, putting a black square on Instagram? And is that the extent of what they're doing? In terms of your journey from a you know, I am, you know, at a university seeking to get into tech, to get into inclusion work, you know very tangibly what were those interviews like, what was, what were those conversations like, what types of things were you asked about and how did you kind of illustrate to those folks hey, I can be good at this, this is something I'm born for, I'm ready for.
Nani Vishwanath:That's a great question. When I was leaving a higher ed, I met with a career coach who's a friend of mine and she's amazing. But she really helped me reshape my own narrative Because at the time, while I loved higher ed, I had a lot of challenges with it as well, and so a lot of my search at the time was what I didn't want. And she had a frank conversation with me where she basically said, like you can't run towards what you don't want. What do you want, right? And so we really put together kind of the what, what am I really looking for? And then I had to come, you know, kind of confront some imposter syndrome I had, having worked in higher ed and wanting to go to the private sector. I was just like, will they want this skill set? I don't know. And so having to kind of confront that and then break down that narrative and then start to really think about here's what I've learned in higher ed. Right, I've taught these courses with this number of people, so that's building a learning framework that's applicable to a, to a private company, and so starting to really understand those translatable skills and then when I started doing informational interviews to understand what kind of company, what kind of jobs I would land at.
Nani Vishwanath:It was interesting because I originally thought, okay, I was in higher ed, so I probably should be in learning and development. That feels like the most natural fit. And I ended up not doing that, ended up being an account executive. But that was because the company and what its mission was and what they were trying to do was much more aligned with what I believed and wanted to see change in the world. And so it was this flip of I don't need the role to fit exactly what I thought, but the kind of place I want to work will have the impact I want to. So that was what that looked like, and just being able to practice shaping those examples to really meet a different audience was helpful, because there is a lot of insider jargon in higher ed that you want to translate and make accessible to folks who who aren't living in that world. So, yeah, that was, that was a big part of that shift right on, right on.
Michael Lane Smith:Um, I'm definitely gonna. I was just thinking in my head. I'm definitely going to re-record some of the ways that I asked you some of these questions, just in terms of stumbling over examples and stuff, but I promise not to change any of the substance of the questions themselves. What was I going to ask? Next, one question I ask every person I chat with in the podcast is you know, obviously, with the development of AI, things are changing a lot, like any technology, I'm imagining you know it's going to be similar to you know, when people were originally building those motion detection soap dispensers right, you have or in the early days of you know you're engineering those, the testers for all of the motion detecting hand soap dispensers were white people, and so when people with darker skin tones went to use those products, they had trouble getting the soap to dispense, or the paper towel or whatever it is.
Michael Lane Smith:And so with AI, you know, one of the things I'm constantly thinking about and worried about is you know, one of the things I'm constantly thinking about and worried about is you know, are the people working on AI is the data being that these tools are being trained on? You know? Is that representative of you? Know our communities here in the States? Is it representative of you? Know what the needs are across the globe and for people who are going to use that? You know? How is it going to negatively impact those people who aren't in the room in development of that program? Aside from that, which I think is a very real technology concern from a DE&I viewpoint, how might you say AI or technology is changing the work that you're doing? And it could be that it's not changing much? I know a lot of spaces aren't moving very quickly into getting into AI and deploying tools like that, but has your work changed dramatically from a technology perspective over the course of your career? And yeah, talk me through that a little bit.
Nani Vishwanath:You know, I think there are some benefits to AI in terms of efficiency and scaling some of the work, but one of the things we talk about often is the nuance that is really hard to decipher through technology and that what is required of ai, um or, excuse me, of dei.
Nani Vishwanath:So, for example, we have a process at rei where we review concerns from employees on products that we sell. So any employee at RAI is able to submit a concern about a product that they think is out of alignment with our standards on a number of things, including diversity and inclusion, and we run that through a process that we evaluate and then triage effectively. So the question came up at one point point is there anything that could be automated about that review? And the answer was very little, because, in addition to the fact that we kind of need this human lens on every question, the landscape is also changing so rapidly, so something that may have landed as fine two years ago will land today and be absolutely not fine and so there's just this level of nuance that's required with this work to be able to not only decipher it in a standalone way but in response to the landscape that surrounds it that I, at this point, wouldn't trust handing that over completely to technology.
Nani Vishwanath:Now are there systems improvements and ways of communication and things that we completely to technology Now are there systems improvements and ways of communication and things that we could leverage technology for Absolutely? But I think in the work I do there's still so much that nuance piece that's required. I know that some AI work is there's improvement happening around improving the quality of AI, because I know a lot of what I understood racist bias was baked into some of the early days of it, and so I know people are working to try to dismantle that. But that is not my area of expertise at this point.
Michael Lane Smith:Right. Right, it's really interesting though, you know, I'm hearing the same thing from other people in talent and HR like the things that are not going to go away is judgment and your ability to interpret your human interaction, human need, communication in certain ways, and I hope that leads to great job security at the D&I space. You know, and we talked a little bit about growth and in terms of opportunity and kind of type of scope, in terms of where D&I is found in organizations and effectively impacting change, have you seen the space generally grow Like are you finding yourself with more peers generally? Or you know, obviously we're in a place now where some of these groups are literally being fired, but how would you describe the overall space in the last you know, nine, 10 years in growth?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, I mean huge growth, then a huge decline, and I think now we're seeing. What's interesting about what we're seeing now is, I think, the organizations that truly deeply had a commitment and didn't just reactively join up two years, four years ago, those are the companies where we'll see the work get more integrated. So the work I do in inclusive design I'm starting to see a lot more at different companies and I'm seeing some brands think about D&I from a brand perspective and not purely from an HR employee relations perspective. So there is a bit more, I'd say, depth in the companies or organizations that are committed and at the same time there are companies that are leaving it behind too, and I think the ripple effects of that will be challenging and we'll continue to see those ramifications over the next 10 plus years. But it's certainly interesting.
Michael Lane Smith:Yeah, if I had to take a guess, I would assume that this moment in time will pass and I would assume that companies who are committed will continue to stay committed three, four, five years from now and beyond, and companies that were quick to withdraw will likely regret it and start to reverse those decisions. Folks that you know, that might mean great opportunity. It might also mean, you know, some of those companies who decide to go back and rebuild their D&I teams still might not have, you know, all the leadership at the top that will push things forward. But you know, I'm wondering if you think the same. You know, do you think that that's an accurate prediction? Do you have your own opinion on what you think will happen?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, I think that the work will inevitably continue. What we say at the Courage Collective is the world is evolving. The way you work should, too. Right. That's just what's the truth. Our demographics of our world and our country are rapidly changing. The needs of people are changing. We talked about the way people buy and consume. Those things are changing and as the generations continue to evolve, that will only amplify that change. And so organizations, from a employee perspective, need to be able to respond and meet the needs of their people. Brands need to be able to respond to meet the needs of their consumers, and whether or not you want to call it DEI or invest in that learning, that's going to continue to happen. And so who will remain relevant, both from an employer standpoint and from a brand standpoint, will be the question.
Michael Lane Smith:Yeah, right on. I know we only have a couple minutes left, so I want to talk a little bit about the interview process. I'm going to skip that a little bit about, like the we already talked about questions or the interview process. I'm going to skip that a little bit. I think I'll just ask in terms of advice for folks looking to get into your field you know you shared a little bit about or the organization your consulting organization you're part of now.
Nani Vishwanath:Yes, the Courage Collective.
Michael Lane Smith:Courage Collective, yeah, and so, with the Courage Collective and your time at REI and working in tech, you know how would you describe the problems that you deal with on a day-to-day basis? I like to describe my job. As you know, I'm literally sitting on the phone all day talking to random strangers until one of them, you know, I find you know the experience I'm looking for, and so the problems I'm dealing with today, every day, are my own just endurance in phone calls and my ability to pay attention for 30 minute increments. But how would you describe?
Nani Vishwanath:the problems you're facing day to day in your roles? That's a good question. I think I would say that systems, places, experiences were built with only a few in mind, and my every day is trying to change that. There is a quote that I always come back to, which is from Dr Crystal Jones, and she says there's a big difference between the ideas all are welcome here, and this was created with you in mind and many places, both from, like, an HR recruiting standpoint and also from a brand standpoint, have an all are welcome sort of mentality, where it's like come on, come on, but in order to actually feel like you belong, you have to shed parts of yourself or change parts of yourself and assimilate in many ways, but this was created with you in mind. Alternative is something much more dynamic and responsive to the needs of humans, and particularly the needs of humans, and particularly the needs of humans that have been often erased. So that's that's where I spend a lot of my time and energy.
Michael Lane Smith:How would you describe, like tactically, what that looks like? Are you, for example, being asked to look through you know, pages of process, or you know even product design drawings and then give feedback directly? You know, are you sitting in meetings where you kind of have multiple different pitches kind of thrown at you? What does that more tactically look like day to day, maybe in one of your roles or one of your consulting engagements?
Nani Vishwanath:Sure, let's see. There's so many examples. One would be with. I work closely with our marketing organization at REI, and if we are coming up with a campaign, we're bringing in perspectives of the community to ensure that we're meeting the moment. If we're talking about hiking or camping or running, what are the various stories that we can pull to ensure that it feels more meaningful and relevant to more people?
Nani Vishwanath:I also run a body of work at REI, that is I mentioned earlier our product impact standards. We have a set of standards that all of the 1,000 plus brands that we sell have to adhere to in order to continue to be assorted at the co-op, and we're developing those standards in community with those marginalized groups. So an example of that that is a tactical project I'm working on is we added a standard around inclusive headwear. Tactical project I'm working on is we added a standard around inclusive headwear. So many hats, scarves and especially helmets are not designed with coarse or textured or high volume hair in mind, and so we heard often from some of our partners, like organizations like Black Girls Do Bike excuse me that they can't wear helmets safely because of their hair and that the helmet was never designed to protect them. And so we've now added a standard that all brands have to include more hair types in their design process in order to be assorted at REI, and that's an industry level change that we're working through day to day.
Michael Lane Smith:Wow, so you're setting up meetings to kind of chat with folks, share information on those changes to standards and kind of answering their questions, to kind of help them meet. That, I'm assuming, is that right?
Nani Vishwanath:Yeah, yeah, we're trying to support brands along the way and continuing to develop those standards to meet the moment and the needs of more people of more people Right on, right on.
Michael Lane Smith:If you were sitting in front of a you know, high school student going into college for the first time, thinking about how they can get into this work and we talked a little bit about the opportunity being in pretty much everywhere how would you really tell them, you know, to start talking about this, to start thinking about this, to start studying this. You know where should they spend their time most if they want to get into this space or, you know, contribute to DE&I in any space they end up in. Where would the great, where would you say they should start?
Nani Vishwanath:I should say I should ask, I think just pay attention to the moments and interactions and experiences that get you fired up. A lot of that for me was outside of the classroom. A lot of that was through hearing about the experiences people had where they felt erased or unseen, and that's how I developed my own personal mission statement. That's something I require of a lot of people or encourage is to develop your own mission statement. That's separate from work, that's separate from your career trajectory. That's just about what the change you want to make in the world, and mine is to elevate the voices of the unheard, and that's something I want to live out, no matter what I do and when I feel that fire. That's where I see some energy about pursuing that in my own career.
Michael Lane Smith:Yeah, when I was in college, I reached out to a mentor of mine His name's John shout out John and I was kind of figuring out like, what do I want to do? Where do I go? I have this internship offering to do comms, and his biggest advice he gave me at that point was just start talking about what you want to do and people that are like-minded, people who want the same things as you. They'll find you and you'll find them. Just start talking about getting your voice out there and listening to other voices that you're attracted to, and so I completely agree and think that, whether it's reaching out to Lululemon or finding other ways to amplify your own voice in the areas that interest you, there's a lot of opportunity out there. So I'd encourage folks to start that. My last question before I ask my real last question is are there any other aspects of DEI programming or your job that we didn't talk about that you would want to share with people?
Nani Vishwanath:I think we covered quite a range. I think the biggest myth about DEI is that it's about getting people jobs or things, basically just because of their identities, and that's it. And then there's this whole the myth that we talked about earlier to this work and that it can show up across organizations and communities in a number of different ways and that it has to evolve over time, like any other line of work is, is what I would underline and encourage people to explore awesome, awesome.
Michael Lane Smith:And, as always, my last question how would you describe how your job has changed you?
Nani Vishwanath:that's a good question. How has my job changed me? I think my job has encouraged me to use my voice in a number of different rooms and experiences. I was somebody who had to develop my voice over my years of life. I was a very shy child and early adolescent and then learned that that fire I spoke of earlier within me needed to be brought into a number of rooms, and the more I've used my voice, I think it has given others permission to do the same, and I've heard that repeatedly throughout my career, and so I've learned when you feel like there's something that needs to be said or a voice that needs to be heard, use the opportunity to do so. Thank you.
