Divorce and Children's Mental Health: A Psychiatrist's Perspective

Most parents going through a divorce ask the same question: Am I hurting my child?

In this episode of The Glamorous Grind, board-certified child,  adolescent, and adult psychiatrist Dr. Peter Kass joins law specialists Mila Arutunian and Ilona Antonyan to answer the questions divorcing parents are afraid to ask.

What you'll learn:
- Divorce itself does NOT inherently traumatize children — conflict does
- Why do children always blame themselves when parents fight
- The "traffic light" warning signs your child is struggling
-  How to tell your kids you're separating (and what NOT to say)
- When to introduce a new partner — and how to do it safely
- Should you tell your kids about infidelity? A psychiatrist answers
- What "emotionally safe parenting" actually looks like
- Why is no-contact with a parent almost always harmful
- How badmouthing the other parent damages your child's self-image
- Why staying together "for the kids" may be more harmful than divorcing

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podcast@antonyanmiranda.com

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Hosts: Ilona Antonyan & Mila Arutunian
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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

When parents decide to divorce, most of their attention naturally goes to the legal process and starting over. But what if the biggest impact is happening in their child's mind?

SPEAKER_00 0:13

I know there's a lot of people watching who probably are either in the process of getting divorced or think about it. There is nothing inherent about divorce that is going to traumatize a child. In fact, staying together in a conflict-fueled relationship is probably as harmful to a kid, if more harmful to a kid, than going through a divorce that actually is handled well and smoothly.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Today we're talking about what divorce actually feels like from a child's perspective. Psychiatrist Dr. Peter Camas is joining us to talk about the mental health effects of divorce on kids and teens. The kids really bounce back? Is divorce itself harmful or is it the conflict surrounding it?

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Welcome back to the Glamorous Grind, the podcast where we break down life's legal challenges with the experts who can help us navigate them. I'm Mila Eritunian, an employment and personal injury attorney.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

And I'm Malona Antonian, a certified family law specialist and a trial attorney. Today we're joined by psychiatrist Dr. Peter Cass, and he's going to help us look at raising emotionally healthy children through separation. He's in a very unique position to help us understand not just what parents are experiencing, but what children are experiencing behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Today we will look at the warning signs children may be struggling, as well as the practical things families can do to create emotional stability during divorce and hopefully avoid psychiatric disorders that could develop or be triggered by divorce.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

While no parent wants to hurt their child, good intentions don't always translate into healthy outcomes. Today we're asking an important question: Can you divorce without hurting your children? Let's get into it. Thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah, so I'm a holistic child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist, which is kind of a mouthful. But basically, I'm a psychiatrist who works with kids ages five all the way through adults for the rest of your life, their life. And I do a combination of things. I do traditional psychiatric work, which is uh providing diagnostic evaluations and medication treatment plans. I also practice a little bit more holistically. So when I'm coming up with treatment plans, I talk a lot about non-medication interventions, like dietary changes, exercise. I'm a therapist. So there's people I see who I do therapy with, uh, plus or minus medications. And then I do a lot of family coaching and parent support. So if a kid is a patient, I will often spend a lot of time working with the families to help them. If uh I'm seeing an adult, I'm often talking to them about parenting and how they can bet better parent their kids. So I'm a psychiatrist, but I I who sees individuals, but it ends up being very family-oriented work, which I think really aligns with kind of the topic we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Does that ever become a problem when parents go through a divorce?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

I mean, I certainly think divorce is one of the most challenging things families I see go through for all sorts of reasons, because of not just the conflict between the parents, but also the logistical adjustments, moving into different houses, transitioning between houses. And for kids and teens, it really is a period of like vast and significant change where their lives that they've known are really shifting. And it doesn't necessarily mean for the worse, but it means there is a dramatic change happening in their family unit and the logistics of their life that do take up a lot of adjusting and navigating and can be terribly difficult for kids, depending on how that whole situation is handled.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

You treat children and parents get involved for parenting consultations or to see how to adjust to the child to help them get better, right? When they go through a divorce, they may disagree on treatment or what the other parent is doing versus what they should not be doing. Do you see them checking out of treatment or interfering with the child's treatment when previously as a family unit they were all involved?

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Definitely, I think the most important thing for me to navigate as a psychiatrist and a therapist when I'm working with families going through divorce is at one point those families, those parents may have been aligned. Usually, though, there always is some misalignment just because parents are different. Oftentimes one parent has one perspective and another parent has another. And so we're always navigating that. After divorce, the legal requirements are that to make any change or adjustment to the treatment plan, I do have to get consent from both parents because they share legal decision-making custody. And parents have very different perspectives on how to raise their kids, especially when they're doing it in different households. So my job as someone's psychiatrist, as a kid's psychiatrist, one is to advocate for them, to make my recommendations based on what I think is best for the kid, but also to make those recommendations while honoring the parents' preference and opinions and feelings. And yes, so sometimes one parent does want to do something and another parent disagrees. And my job is to actually navigate that conflict and to help sort of understand the differences between the parents' opinion and to help actually inform them of, you know, the pros and cons of any decision. So it ends up being sort of a balance, is honoring the parent's autonomy, but also doing my best to make sure that the plan we have in place is best for the kid. And the most important thing is that the parents aren't fighting the recommendations because they're in conflict with each other, but because they actually have different ideas of what's best for the kid. That's fine. But if they're disagreeing for the sake of fighting each other, that's where I have to jump in and sort of push a little bit harder against it because my job is to advocate for the kid's well-being.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Aaron Powell Sounds like you have to be a mediator between parents going through divorce that now are going at it against each other and potentially without intending so hurting the child's treatment.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

My goal when I'm working with families is never to get involved in their actual divorce or their relationship if they're not my patients, but to help them navigate the conflict to best parent their kid. So, for example, if I hear something where a parent is talking badly about the other parent to their kid, and I can tell that's getting in the kid's emotional way and causing them distress. My job as their therapist or psychiatrist is to kind of educate that parent on sort of what might be happening to understand why it's happening and to give them a different way of thinking about it, not so they can necessarily, you know, navigate the divorce or the separation with their ex, but rather so they can actually create an environment that's healthiest for their kid.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

Remember a long time ago, I read an article as part of our continued education course. It said, you know, when children hear the other parent talk negatively about their mom or dad, because they know they're made up 50-50 of each of them, it impacts their self-confidence, it impacts their self-image, no matter whether they agree or not, without their parent not being a perfect parent. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 7:02

The way I think about it is, especially in younger kids, our parents are our model for relationships. They are they are the most important things in our lives. They feed us, they clothe us, they keep us safe, they keep us protected. And what happens when a parent is painted in a negative light, a kid cannot tolerate that idea, right? Because their parents are supposed to be their ultimate protector. So if a kid is seeing something or hearing something about their parent, it is often safer for them to blame themselves than to actually think of their parents as being flawed because that is too harmful or scary. So kids internalize, well, if mom is struggling, it must be because of something I'm doing. Because there's no way my protector could be flawed or my dad could be flawed. And so that's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. Is and so a lot of times what we see in adults is adults' emotional challenges are often because of something they internalized as a kid. And in divorce, that that's where we see problems. It's like, oh, if you're divorcing and you're fighting each other, that has to be my fault because you guys are supposed to have it all together. Or if mom is crying, or if mom is yelling, that must be something I'm doing because there's no way she would just yell she's my protector. And so when we're helping families navigate divorce, that's the piece we have to reiterate is sort of like your conflict is being seen and heard and internalized by your kid. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have conflict. That's why you're getting divorced. But can you navigate that conflict behind closed doors? Can you make remain regulated, or can you at least communicate with each other without bringing your kid into it? So they don't absorb that and worst case scenario, see themselves as the cause or the flawed part of the family unit?

SPEAKER_03 8:44

Aaron Powell When parents cannot control themselves, as most can't, because when they go through a divorce, usually one of them goes through temporary insanity because of difficulties financial, sharing children, everything else. Um, do you see that resulting in long-term or short-term psychological or psychiatric damage to the child?

SPEAKER_00 9:04

I know there's a lot of people watching who probably are either in the process of getting divorced or think about it. There is nothing inherent about divorce that is going to traumatize a child. There is the so in fact, staying together in a conflict-fueled relationship is probably as harmful to a kid as if more harmful to a kid than going through a divorce that actually is handled well and smoothly. So my one of my big takeaways I want families to know is no, getting divorced does not inherently cause your kid harm. In fact, it can in the long term better them if they now have a more stable environment. Now, the the thing I'd say is most common is every kid is gonna go through psychological challenges when they're getting their parents are getting divorced. That doesn't mean it's traumatic. It doesn't mean that they're gonna have long-term consequences of it. It just means they're going through a major change and they need help navigating it. The only way a kid is gonna have really long-term effects is if that divorce is extremely contentious and volatile and that is being played out in front of the kids. So these are situations where the parents are fighting, they're talking badly about each other to the kids, they're bringing the kids into it and making them make choices. Who do you want to live with, me or or dad? This is an ultimatum. They are witnessing damaging, violent, upsetting things. Those are the the things that cause the biggest long-term consequences. But divorce itself is not the problem. It's kind of how it's being managed.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

It's a very good perspective. Do you ever find that I feel like I've seen a lot of parents say, well, the other parent is damaging the kid and we have a therapist. And do you ever find yourself in that situation where you feel that a parent is using you as a sword against the other parent in divorce proceedings? And how do you navigate that?

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Well, one thing I do, you know, is I don't do work with kids that's court required, because I actually think for me, that interferes with my ultimate goal, which is to support the kid in a sort of a way that is separate from the legal system. And so one way that I sort of navigate that is I make sure that the work I'm doing with families is outside of the court system so that they know that like the work we're doing is actually not going to get brought into their divorce. Because that's the most important thing is if parents can s think of me as like, oh, if I if he documents this or this and that, I'm gonna get custody and that is problematic. So I separate myself from that. And the other thing is, you know, when there is disagreement with parents, when a parent is either not agreeing to something I'm recommending or wants to remove their kid from treatment, that's not necessarily wrong, but I want to understand a parent's motivation for that. Is it because they don't agree with the recommendation I'm making, which is totally fine? Is it because they don't think I'm a good fit for their kid or their family, which is fine? Or is it again, is their motivation because they just want to kind of butt heads with their ex? And in that situation, you know, I'm gonna educate them on like my role, which is never to play favorites, it's never to favor one fan side of the family in front of the other. It's to create an environment that best supports their kid and to help their kid live the life they want to live. And so so much of my work, even with a child patient, is I'm the parent's therapist as well. And in fact, most of my work with kids ends up being more family work and adult work because in the end, the best way to support kids is having healthy, emotionally regulated parents.

SPEAKER_03 12:17

Yeah. And when it comes to legal custody, um, both parents have equal power to make decisions on behalf of the child. So if they don't agree to continue in therapy with you, one does, the other one doesn't, and the child wants to remain, then the child can remain unless they get an order from the court that directs them for a good cause to find someone else. You don't have to deal with that, yeah, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah, not and I'm I'm fortunate because that that's such a complicated situation. And you know, in my work with families, like my ultimate goal is not that everyone agrees or has the same parenting philosophy. And I tell parents that all the time. Like, it's okay that in a separated house, what one parent has different expectations and rules than the other. That's just naturally what happens when families separate into separate households, is you parent from your own perspective. And I try to show families that you can maintain your independence in your house and parent your kid the way you want and have it be different than how the other parent is parenting. And yet there can still be harmony in co-parenting in situations where there needs to be co-parenting. And that's so much of the work with divorcing families is yes, you can have your own lives and be separate, which is the therapeutic part of divorce, and still have harmony in the areas where you need to collaborate, which, you know, as a kid gets older is less and less. But um, and that's where my hope is when I work with families that we can find a way to co-parent, because that models then how they are going to deal with those situations outside of the appointments with me. When parents get upset with me, it's not usually because they're upset with my decision making, it's because there's something happening in them where they feel unheard, dismissed, not understood, left out, especially in divorcing parents. And so that's where I try to navigate it. Is if if a parent is getting upset, my job is to not necessarily get them to agree with me. It's to understand what I did that may have caused them to feel upset or left out.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

I think of mental health care like my practice is rooted no matter who I'm seeing, a kid, an adult, medication, no medication. My care is rooted in relationships. And in the end, the best therapeutic interaction and relationships is when someone feels heard, understood, and listened to. And that allows me to disagree with them, right? That's how we all can disagree and argue. You know, we're able to debate debate with someone when we know they respect us, even if we disagree. And so in working with families, that's the ultimate goal is I need people to know I respect and care about them. That way, when I disagree with them, they know it's not from a place of disrespect, it's just from a place of different perspectives.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

I think that ties back with what you said. That was very powerful. That staying in a high conflict relationship is actually more damaging to children than getting a divorce and having an easy divorce or a low conflict divorce because I have heard so many people say, We're together for the kids, we're together as soon as the kids are 18, we're probably gonna break up. And I've also heard a lot of adults say, Yeah, my my parents broke up when I was in college. They should have broken up, you know, 10 years ago because they were exposed to so much conflict. And I think a lot of it is that just not feeling understood and heard, but having that go for long periods of time. I'm sure that has an effect on kids. And I anticipate that kids who are already seeing you probably have more highly empathetic parents who sign them up for therapy and want to nurture their feelings and emotional states. So probably you can help navigate that better.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

If a kid is in a situation where the parents are constantly yelling, fighting, uh, just constantly in conflict with each other, and a divorce would create space to have more sort of peace and co-parenting, then yes, there's potential that that is helpful. At the same time, though, there's, and this is important, the kid is still gonna go through a challenging time. Even if in the end they're gonna be maybe better off emotionally by being with less conflict, there's still gonna be the adjustment of, oh my God, my parents are living in separate houses, they don't love each other, is it my fault? Uh, I'm gonna, am I gonna be able to stay in my school? All these things are still gonna arise. That doesn't mean it's the wrong decision. And that's the important thing to know is even if a kid's having a hard time for parents, it doesn't mean they did the wrong thing, especially if it's a parent who is leaving their spouse because of domestic violence, danger, safety issues, then absolutely it's the right thing, even if the kid has a hard time with it.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Uh, in terms of counseling families where there is violence, you know, I mean, the first thing is I, as a doctor, am a mandated reporter, which basically means if I hear that a kid is experiencing anything that is physically dangerous or even extremely emotionally damaging and which they're witnessing, like I have an obligation to report it to CPS. That doesn't mean CFS is gonna CPS is gonna do anything. It just means they have that report. And so one thing I do share with families so they know ahead of time is hey, listen, just so you know, like I'm legally required, if there's anything that is endangering the kid in the house, I have to report it. I tell families that up front so they know that it's not something I like doing, but there are situations where a kid's safety is at risk and I have to report it. And so that will sometimes then sort of create a ball rolling where you know a parent will reassess a situation and things like that. The other thing is, and I don't come across this just all that often. Like most of the time, divorcing parents are doing the best they can to create a safe environment for the kid, and they are. The challenge is more in the emotional volatility that that's that physically harmful, but more emotionally harmful. But you know, I think if I was experiencing a a partner, an adult who is experiencing domestic violence, like in my role, I would what I would try to do is I would try to set up as many like individual conversations with them where we could actually talk away from the partner and away from the kid so I could get uh accurate information. And if they were experiencing violence, I would one empathize with how hard that must be, and actually sort of maybe try to educate them if they weren't aware on the on the harms of the situation. Because so many domestic violence victims aren't even aware of the cycle they're in. So I think my job, at least to start, would be to help them identify the cycle and to see the emotional damage and even physical damage that might be coming from it.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

What are some behaviors that you might notice in children that may indicate that they are struggling through their parents' divorce?

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah, so I usually think when I think about emotional challenges as sort of like like traffic lights. So green light being like mild, like, okay, a kid might be a little bit sad, they might be a little bit irritable, but they're still enjoying time with friends, they're going to school, they're getting good grades, they're doing everything they're doing. That bride just needs like an eye on it without any intervention. The the the red flag ones are are you know, a kid becoming violent, aggressive, refusing to go to school, socially withdrawing, so pulling away from activities they've always really enjoyed, sports, theater, uh, not doing homework, you know, doing dangerous behaviors, doing drugs, kind of things like that. But a lot of times it's it's something more in the middle where it's more of yellow flag, which is kind of like some social withdrawal. They seem a little bit more down. They seem to maybe not enjoying things as much as they used to. They are spending more time alone. They're maybe, you know, missing some assignments, or they're, you know, there's some school change that's out of character. So it to me, it really depends on like shifts from their baseline and how much it's kind of impacting areas of their life, like academics, social relationships, kind of things like that.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

You said something really interesting, and it was kids don't need perfect parents, they just need emotionally safe parents. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like what parents can do during a divorce when, of course, they feel conflict and they're human and it's hard and it feels heartbreaking because divorce is like a little death, right? And it's a family that you've built and you've put so much into that you're leaving behind. There's a lot of grief there. What can they do to continue to provide safe emotional spaces for their children, notwithstanding what they themselves are going through, so that the children can be less affected?

SPEAKER_00 20:48

I'm glad you used the word grief because grief is not just something an emotion around death, it's an emotion around loss. And so, yes, a divorce is a loss. And so everyone in the family is going to grieve that loss, and that may look different than death, but it is a loss. And so that's just inevitable. And I think it's important for parents to tell kids that, which is you can be sad, you can struggle, you can be really upset, and that's just a total normal emotion. And I think it's really important for parents to validate the emotion and not try to get rid of it. A lot of parents, when they see their kid anxious or distressed or sad, they want to take that away because they don't want to see their kids suffering. And more importantly, they don't want to feel bad that they're putting their kid through this. Sometimes the worst thing we can do is sort of try to take away a kid's emotion when it's really important to allow them to sit in it and sit in it with them. And so, as a parent, when you're going through a divorce, so much of your action is going to be what can I do to make myself feel less guilty about this? So I'm gonna give them candy, I'm gonna give them all the gifts, I'm gonna uh buy them every video game machine they want. And in the end, that doesn't actually solve the issue. It just makes you feel better. And so navigating that is really important. And the other thing is just sort of like really sort of. Trying to find the balance, we're recognizing a divorce might be the right decision for one or both parents. And that divorce can be navigated between the parents and trying to minimize the involvement of the kid in it. So, you know, anything with a lawyer, any arguments, can they be done behind closed doors? Can they be done while kids are at school? Making sure that parents do not talk badly about each other, like that in the view of the kid, they are calm and settled and regulated so that the kid doesn't absorb all of that negative energy. And for parents, the the most important thing I would say is get your own therapist, get your own support system. Like don't use your kid, don't use your family, don't use your house as like a place to vent or a place to help regulate yourself. Like your job is to keep your kid regulated. And the only way to do that is if you yourself are regulated. So if you're a parent and you're struggling in the emotions of the divorce, you need your own support team. And that's only gonna help you, that's actually gonna help your kid in the long term.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

That is excellent advice. Yeah. I think about that all the time that there are places where we have to emotionally regulate, like at work. You can't just lose it, even when you want to. And then a lot of times it's inevitable that, you know, we go home and that's where like there's there's no juice left to emotionally regulate.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

And that's fine. Like, you know, crying in front of your kids is not a bad thing, right? That's that is not dysregulation, right? Inherently, like crying or getting upset. So, like if you had a really stressful day and you went home and cried and your kid came up to you and said, Mommy, why are you crying? That's actually a teaching lesson. I'm crying because I had a really hard day and I'm a little bit sad. And crying is what happens when you're sad, but I'm okay. And in a in a couple minutes, I'll feel better. And thank you for asking. So that is regulated, right? It's not that you don't show emotion in front of your kids, it's that you don't lose control of your emotion and have it project in a way that's harmful by, you know, yelling at your kid, yelling at their parents, calling someone names. Uh it it's sort of in how you handle the emotions. And that's important for parents to know too. It's like actually showing emotions in front of our kids are is really important. It models, it demonstrates how to talk about emotions, how to feel emotions. And that's what being a good enough parent is. It's like like we were talking about earlier, it's yelling at your kids and then apologizing and saying, oh, that wasn't right. Like, yes, you messed up, but I shouldn't have yelled at you. I could have handled that better. Like that's that's value, that's good enough. You don't need to be a perfect parent. You actually, it's good to mess up and to model what repairing an error looks like. Yeah. Um, and so parents going through this, yeah, you're gonna mess up. You're not gonna do it perfectly. And when you don't do it perfectly, it's an opportunity to take I shouldn't have said anything bad about your dad. That was unfair. Like he and I had a fight. You don't need to be involved in that. I'm not gonna bring you into our conflicts anymore. That wasn't fair.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Okay, so now we have some questions from our listeners for you.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

And this segment is called Let's Get Gritty. I'm gonna pull out one of the questions. My ex-husband constantly badmouths me in front of the kids. How damaging is that? Talked a little about this, but if you want to touch on it again.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

I I don't want to make a blanket statement because, you know, what's being said, how is it being said, how old are the kids, there's so much. So, you know, I can't give a sort of a concrete it's this bad or it's not that bad. My only advice would be, and this is challenging, is when you are divorced, you have no control for the most part over what happens in the other parent's house, and that's really hard. And so if this listener, if this watcher has uh a commute a relationship with their ex, I think it's worth it to have a conversation about, hey, our kids said you've been saying this about me. Can we talk about that? Because that doesn't feel really good, and I'm worried that you saying that in front of them is going to harm our relationship. So if you've got a problem, we can talk about it, or can we just agree to not talk about each other in front of the kids? In the end, depending on the relationship, that might not work and that sucks and it's really heart hurtful. And then the only thing I would say to this listener is when the kids come over, try, try, try not to reciprocate, not to talk badly about the other parent just because you hear it's happening about you. As tempting as that is, it's not gonna help anything. It's gonna make things worse. So in this situation, you know, if that other partner is not listening and not hearing what you're saying, taking the high road, even though it's really, really, really hard.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

And I really liked that approach of addressing it in a very professional way of like, hey, like this isn't great. Let's talk about this, please, as opposed to, you know, reciprocating and doing it back, because I think that'll just do double the damage. And I do think that kids understand a lot more than they let on. So if they hear one parent badmouthing another and they actually want to tell that other parent, they probably understand that it's not right.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Yes. And the one thing I'll see uh say, especially in older kids, adolescents, is most adolescents are more bothered by the parent who's talking badly about the other than they are about hearing the bad about the parent who they're hearing badly about.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Do you guys hear that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

So so like I will say when I talk to teens who are mid-divorced or their parents are divorced, if one parent is talking about the other, they often come in and say, Ah, it's so frustrating. My mom is always talking badly about my dad, and I hate it. It's very rare that I hear, especially older kids, my mom is talking about my dad, and I get it. My dad is such a terrible person. Like it happens sometimes, um, but usually kids are savvy enough to know that like it doesn't feel it's it's immature, and they sort of know that.

SPEAKER_03 27:41

Yeah. All right. Our next one. My 11-year-old daughter says she doesn't want to see her dad anymore. We've been divorced for three years, and there is no abuse or anything, and I'm not sure where it's coming from. What should I do first?

SPEAKER_00 27:53

So this might be me, and it might be sort of a little bit of controversial. I don't, I believe we no co contact is too common right now. I think it kids going no contact from their parents is really, really problematic because it it ruptures the relationship beyond repair. And oftentimes when people get older, they want a relationship with the parent they went no contact from, and it's really hard to repair and to recover from. So in this 11-year-old, I'm not saying there isn't a reason for why they don't want to see their dad, but I would want to get a better understanding of what that was. You know, what's going on at dad's house, what's dad's parenting style? Is there something really scary and upsetting happening? Because then we want to honor it. Is it something that his just it's just his parenting style that he's not doing anything wrong, but he might be a little bit more stern and have more rules than mom? Like we really have to get to the the a better understanding of what's happening at dad's house that she wants to avoid. If it's just his style is different, or, you know, it's not as fun, or he he, you know, I don't know, has earlier bedtime, then that needs to be na navigated because she's she does still need to go there. But if it's something like abuse or neglect or something serious and scary, like, okay, we want we want to sort of honor that. But I think a little bit more investigating needs to come up here. And that would be where maybe a therapist or a counselor would be better. The girl might not be willing to share with mom what's happening at dad's, or might, and so it might be getting a third party involved would actually be helpful to navigate this.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

Yeah. What about younger children? Like when they're under one or one, two, three years old, and the mom doesn't want them to go because they may be breastfeeding or they think it's too early. Do you still think that should be forced for an extended period of time?

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Let's say it's a newborn and breastfeeding has to happen every two to three hours. That might be something where there's an agreement in the custody for like in the short term, like mom is gonna have more custody with an op with sort of it agreed upon that you're as the child gets older and is less dependent on mom specifically, that arrangement will shift and more time will be spent at the other parent's house. Uh, yeah, that there is something biological about that, especially with breastfeeding. And then what you would run into, I guess, is if the dad didn't agree, because breastfeeding is not necessary for survival. And so that would be more of like a yeah, uh a legal thing is how do you decide custody with something that is medically beneficial but not medically necessary? And do you value that over parental custody?

SPEAKER_03 30:27

But you can't predict from judicial officer to judicial officer how they're going to interpret it because there are no rules on that. And it requires experts like yourself or someone else to come and say what's right or wrong. And there is no right or wrong answer, right? Because it could be argued from a scientific perspective, and then there's, hey, each parent should have their custody rights. It doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Breastfeeding certainly, we know it has biological benefits, uh, immune system benefits, bonding, emotional connection. And at the same time, you know, I've babies who are fed formula also still bond with their parents and connect, and you still do the feeding and make eye contact. And so this would be a situation, like it's a I I agree with you. I think it would depend on the lean of the person you were talking to. Are they more biologically oriented? Are they more like it's all about emotional attunement and a non-breastfeeding parent can emotionally tune as well as a breastfeeding parent? And this is why I'm glad I'm not a judge, because I don't think there's a right answer, and I don't think it's fair to have to decide what's right and wrong. And in the courts, you do have to, like as a judge or as a lawyer. And so that that would be my role as a therapist is sort of helping people understand not what's right or wrong, but what's your motivation for your preference? And that's what I do with a therapist all the time. Like, if people want to leave their job, well, are you leaving it because you want to? Is it because it's hard and you're not comfortable doing anything hard? Like it all therapy, all guidance comes down to what's your motivation for doing something? Is it healthy? Is it not healthy? If it's not healthy, how do we recognize that and make an adjustment?

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Next question: How do I introduce a new partner without traumatizing my children?

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Gradually. Certainly gradually. I think also it's sort of really age-dependent. Sort of a younger kid, you're gonna navigate it a little bit differently with an older kid. You know, I think it's always best to start that conversation before you ever introduce the partner. So, and you don't even need to, again, age-dependent. Older kids will be more transparent, younger kids not so much. But I've been spending time with a new friend if the kid's older. I've been spending nine with a new man or woman who sort of, you know, we're we're dating. I'm telling you this because one, I want you to know why I've been out of the house a little bit more. And I'm also telling you just because it's it's not serious, but I am seeing this person, I just want you to know and we can talk about it. And that conversation is had over and over and over again. And then eventually, and this is a really personal decision, but when that new partner becomes an important part of your life, then it's worth the risk of introducing them to their kids, right? The risk is your kids don't like them, they're mean to your kid, you break up and you have to explain that to your kid. So that's a personal decision. But once that person is important enough to you, then it's about to your kids, hey, remember that new friend I've talked about? I was thinking it'd be nice for you guys to meet. How do you feel about that? And how would you be comfortable meeting them? Like maybe not in the house because that's a little bit personal, but would you want to go to a park with them? Like, would you want to go to dinner? What would feel comfortable to you? And I would just make it a casual short visit, and then you can slowly sort of like titrate up as the relationship builds. But I think no rush, gradual is better, and being transparent, like from personal experience, the worst thing you can do is lie to your kids about where you're going, who you're seeing, and then you have to like, you know, I've had situations where they don't tell their kid until like the relationship has really progressed, and the kid's like, wait, what? You're dating someone? It's like, yeah, you if you're leaving the house to go see someone and your kids are old enough to be like, where's mom and dad going? They're old enough to know, like, yes, I've been dating again. And let's talk about what that means.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

That would be so traumatizing to a kid. I feel like my son had a moment where I I don't know who I was talking about, but I was like, Yeah, I dated this guy. And he was like, Oh, you've had a boyfriend. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And he was like, Tracy's like, I thought you were only with dad. Dad was your only boyfriend. I'm like, no.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

And that's where, again, kids seeing their parents as flawless, right? Like the idea that you had had a life before your son, before your husband, is like, it's it's not even believable. And so we can see how that's why like you need to be gentle with kids because you are a superhero to them. And so the idea that like you've broken a law, you've made mistakes, you've had other relationships is just like mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

You know, our parents never had to think about this, but I'm always like, is my response gonna traumatize them? Is it gonna make it better? How much does their mind really capable of understanding this? You want to be honest with them and and treat them like mature, responsible beings, but also not go over their heads and it's like I was actually talking to a friend of mine today who's a therapist, and he was sort of quoting someone, or maybe himself.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

I don't know what he was talking about. But he was saying basically, like, if you're to be a good parent means you're constantly thinking about how to be a good parent. So it's like we think we actually get turned around in knots, like, what's the best thing to do? What's the best thing to do? When in reality the fact that we are thinking about that makes us a good parent.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Well, I didn't cry in front of my kids for a long time. Long time, like until probably the first time I cried in front of my oldest son, he was eight, like a year ago. And he was just like shocked. And he was like, Oh my god, I don't know what to do. I've never seen my mom cry. And at that point, I was like, Oh my God, he thinks I'm a robot. But now he's the way where he when he's really upset, I see him holding back tears, and I hate that. I'm like, you can cry, it's okay. He's like, No, I'm strong. Like, no, don't be like me.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

It breaks your heart when you like see them just like struggling to hold tears in, and just like, I'm okay, I'm okay. I'm like, you're not okay, just let it know.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

And that's you know, that's the next episode where we can talk about masculinity and what that means, and it's okay to cry.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Interesting. Okay, let's choose the longest one. Should I tell my kids the real reason for our divorce? It was their mom's infidelity, but I don't want them to blame him.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Yeah, no. They they yeah, yeah, I think that's a simple answer. Your kids don't need to know why you're getting divorced. And in fact, that one especially, your kids don't need to know that it was because of their mother's uh infidelity. It's just that I always think about when you think about telling kids, is it beneficial for the kids? It's the same way as I think as a therapist. Anything I share with a patient has to be for their benefit. It can't be like I'm sharing to make myself feel better or feel good. And so in this situation, I can't see any reason why the kids knowing that would benefit them in this process.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

But in real life, it is almost impossible to keep that away from the kids because the parent will be experiencing shock and betrayal, they'll be sad, they'll be crying, they'll be talking to friends and family, discussing this, the children will hear it, and depending on the age of the child, they are also aware that something has been going on and maybe suspicious or have seen texts or their parents talking.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Some parents are in impenetrable, like they are very good at hiding conflict. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 37:31

But how do you handle that? If the children know that the parents are separating because of infidelity, how do you yield that?

SPEAKER_00 37:40

I would, I mean, I would try not to share it with them. And then if they did find out or they did hear, that would be then sort of, okay, now I'm having a conversation about what they know and what they're feeling. And I would, again, the ultimate goal is to allow kids to maintain trust and love for both parents if possible. And so let's pretend I was a parent and I knew my kid heard. I would say, I know you've heard that part of the reason we're getting divorced is that uh your mom I don't know what language I cheated or had relationships outside of marriage. And I know you know that, and I know that might be really upsetting to hear, but just so you know, adult relationships are really, really complicated. Your mom doing that doesn't mean she's a bad person or that she's a bad mom, and you don't have to understand our relationship. That did happen, but at the same time, there's so much more involved that you don't have to worry about, and she is still your mother, and that doesn't change anything.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

I don't see anyone that I've divorced being able to say it that way and keep their cool. Like in a perfect world, if you're not the heart hurt person, it's easy to say.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

But I think as a kid, when you hear a parent talking like that, you're going to immediately favor that parent. Like I just feel like kids are going to be more geared towards like understanding the parent who's empathetic and taking that as an example.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

That is such a high road though that most people cannot follow. Because when you're hurt and you feel betrayed, whether you're a man or a woman, like to sit down and just act like the other person, oh it's okay. You know, we'll get through this. Like, how are you gonna do that?

SPEAKER_00 39:19

And I agree, like the the the it's easy for me, it's always easier for me to say it than do it, especially like this is like a physics problem where we're pretending friction doesn't exist. It makes it all easier to have the conversation. And so these are all hypothetical, and when the emotions get involved, that's why I would never blame a parent for handling it differently. My job is to give parents the best way to do it and to get as close as that as possible, knowing when emotions get involved, it's harder. And at the same time, I think in this situation, in saying this to your kid, you're not necessarily saying that you're happy with the other parent or that you're not. You could even say, I'm sta I am devastated. It is really hard what I'm going through with your other parent. And this situation is really complicated. And I, if you're able to say it with some honesty, and I know though, this doesn't change who they are as a parent to you.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

I mean, it's okay then it's all them your heart and to share your tears because you can't, it's hard to hide that.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

And that's reality, and that's what we're talking about. Like, yeah, um, the emotional part is not traumatizing to a kid. It's okay to vi to explain your emotions, to show your emotions, to share your emotions. The the the error, the the problem comes in if those emotions then lead you to damage their relationship with the other parent.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Dr. Cass, what do you think is the best way to tell the children that the parents are separating?

SPEAKER_00 40:39

I think this is gonna sound cliche. Uh I think the messaging that everyone parent already knows to say, which is it's got nothing to do with you, right? And even if a kid might not fully understand that, but it has to be said, I think it should be said that should be have there should be a conversation between the two exes around when the best time to share it is, when can we do it in a way where we're calm and settled, and talking to each other about how you're going to deliver that news to the the child or children. It should be done together. It should be done with the same messaging. It shouldn't be dad says this and mom says this or one parent says this. It should be a uniform message. And it should really be kind of grounded in this idea that, you know, we are still a family. Mommy and I, you know, our family's gonna look different and it might even feel different, and that's gonna be hard. But in the end, we are still your parents and we are still gonna do everything you need us to do for you and take care of you. And our hope, and that this may be hard at first, but we're gonna be here to help you navigate whatever feelings you have that come up.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

What's the best way to explain to the children that they will not be living under the same roof anymore?

SPEAKER_00 41:50

I don't think there's a good there's there's no good way to say it. It's basically just like as part of this process, ripping off the band-aid, daddy or mommy are gonna is gonna live in another house. So you are gonna stay in this house and you're gonna spend part of the time there. And we know that's gonna be hard and different and uncomfortable, and we are gonna help that make that as easy as possible. But in the end, we know that this is the best thing for me and mommy and for you, even if this feels really hard right now. And that's the piece where like we know this sucks. We're still doing it, but it sucks. And that honoring those two things, it has to happen, and we know it sucks.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

I think no matter how old the child is, even if they're grown up or a teenager or a young child, they always want their parents to get back together. There's that secret hope that maybe parents will reunite. How do you address that?

SPEAKER_00 42:42

I think a parent would probably v want to, when they're sharing with a kid, say, and this is just a separation. Mommy and daddy may live together. We may get back together. When in reality that's probably not gonna happen, but it it gives the kid hope. And then in the end, it just leads them to be let down in the future. So I would just sort of I would I would frame divorce or separation to kids as especially divorce. Mommy and I are not gonna be married anymore. We're gonna live in separate houses, we're still gonna take care of you and love you, and you're still gonna see us all the time, and we're still your mom and dad, and we're still a family, even though it looks different. But I wouldn't ever tell a kid, and we might get back together, or I think we're gonna, because in the end, if you do get back together, that's awesome. The kid might like it. The kid might not, because maybe they'd be worried. Oh man, are they gonna fight again? Are they gonna be fine? Like all this stuff. And then if it doesn't happen, the kid's not gonna be let down that you told them something might that won't.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Dr. Cross, thank you so much for joining us today and helping us better understand the emotional world of children navigating divorce.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

One of the biggest takeaways from today's discussion is that children don't need perfect parents, they need emotionally safe parents. The way you communicate and manage conflict can make an enormous difference in how kids experience divorce and how they heal afterwards. Hit that subscribe button and make sure to follow us.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

And if you've got a question for Let's Get Gritty, leave it in the comments or send it to podcast at anthonyandmiranda.com.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time on the glamour's grind.