My Golf Source
Attention Golf Enthusiasts! Level up your golf game with hosts Darren Penquite and Noah Horstman, PGA as they keep you up to date on the latest trends, equipment, training aids and more. Learn tips and tricks from PGA Professionals to lower your score and grow your love for the game of golf.
My Golf Source
Inside Titleist's Tour Truck
Dino Antenucci is a Senior Club Fitting Analyst with Titleist and is currently traveling and working with professional golfers on the Korn Ferry Tour. His contributions have significantly impacted Titleist’s reputation for personalized club fitting and performance optimization. Dino shares stories and insights from working with professionals and delivers sound advice for amateur and recreational golfers.
Welcome to the my golf source podcast. Welcome to my golf source. I'm Darren, I'm Noah. Back at it again. I think this is week 12.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the weather has definitely changed from good to great.
Speaker 1:And better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oddly enough, just came from the golf garage. We're still slammed in there on a Monday, which is not normally a busy day, so I think the golf bug is officially in full swing in Southern Oregon.
Speaker 1:And Sunday was busy too, I hear.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it definitely was. We did an awesome deal where we had some pizza, beer and a bay for 20 bucks. How good is that.
Speaker 1:Dude for an hour, Half an hour.
Speaker 3:No for an hour. For an hour and you could bring your friends. Just Sundays have been a little bit slower. In the afternoons I'm like let's drive some traffic.
Speaker 1:Not with that deal. No.
Speaker 3:No, no, it was good, and so we'll probably do more family stuff here in the future. I'm really excited about getting it all out, but how about you? What's new with you?
Speaker 1:You know still coming off the high playing running why?
Speaker 3:In Klamath Falls last weekend. So funny, A lot of fun. I was showing somebody in a lesson today who didn't have a lot of mobility and they were making golf swings and just moving all over the place and finally caught one and I was talking to him about his balance and ultimately talking about balance at impact and how important that is. But after you've hit the ball it's not as important. So I talked to him a little bit about Arnold Palmer and showed him a couple Arnie swings as he aged gentleman 70, you know in his late seventies.
Speaker 3:So pretty funny when I showed him early Arnie versus now Arnie and he's like okay with it. Now you know, just knowing that a great golfer did it and so who cares?
Speaker 1:Some of the best golfers I know personally have the most unconventional swings.
Speaker 3:Like your son, toby's got a little bit of unconventional.
Speaker 1:He's not near as unconventional as a lot of a lot of the guys. I see there's another guy. I won't say names, but I compare his swing to Daryl Strawberry with the little loop-de-loop on the back.
Speaker 3:Pounds driver, probably when he gets it. He does. He does the extra windup yeah, that's awesome. Well, let's get right to it. We've got an extra special guest with us today, coming all the way down from Southern California, works for the largest manufacturer of golf balls in the world and he gets to work with some of the best golfers in the world in fitting them. Please welcome Dino Antonucci with Titleist Golf. Welcome to the show, dino.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, dino, before we get started, I want to tell a quick story about how I met you and ultimately, I was in Ohio and I didn't want to be in Ohio in the wintertime, like no one wants to. I think you grew up there and I was currently on the board of the Northern Ohio section PGA at the time and your dad was the executive director at that time. And ultimately, ultimately, I was coming down to California to um try out some clubs from another company and your dad said, hey, you should go see my son while you're down there. And I said, oh, where's your work? And he said, hey, you should go see my son while you're down there.
Speaker 3:And I said, oh, where's your work? And he said, oh, he's a fitter at Titleist. I'm like, oh, I'm there, I love Titleist. So, um, obviously, your dad connected us and you, open arm, basically, were like, let me know when you're there, if I'm there, coming in. And that was the coolest experience I've ever had at any tour department because, if you recall, bob Vokey decided to give us a tour fitting experience and you, he allowed us to watch first of all, which was incredible.
Speaker 3:And the tour players were were great too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a. It's a pretty special place, for sure. Or they're at the titles performance Institute and, again, like you said, at any given moment you could see a tour player, you could see Bob Vokey, many of our unbelievable engineers that helped design the golf clubs out of the West coast operations. So it's, it's a pretty cool place. You never know who you're going to run into while you're out there.
Speaker 3:Dino, do you remember when I entered that I had a hat under my armpit? I kind of brought this up in the last podcast but I was. I was pretty gun shy when I realized that a Callaway hat on in Titleist and it was no more than boy 90 seconds. I think you guys were sick in your sniffing dog on me. But somebody is like hey, what's in your armpit? And I was like kind of sheepishly pulled it out.
Speaker 1:Literally 30 seconds later I had a Titleist hat on, so he should have said it was something he found in the parking lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly Right, no Well.
Speaker 2:I mean that's for sure. I mean it's uh, we always want to make sure everybody's taking care of and yeah, presenting the Titleist, uh the banner as well.
Speaker 3:That's so cool. So tell us a little bit about where you've been recently and what you're doing, because when I was with you before, you were at Titleist solely doing fittings, and now you're on the road correct, correct, yeah, so for the past seven years I've been the manager of golf clubs.
Speaker 2:Promotions out there on the Corn Fairy Tour, so week in and week out. Wherever the Corn Fairy Tour is, myself and uh, promotions out there on the corn fairy tour. So a week in and week out. Wherever the corn fairy tour is, uh, myself and my team are out there just helping out the players and making sure they have all the product ready to go for a Thursday, friday, saturday, sunday.
Speaker 3:Man, that's awesome. So I've had a little bit of experience um corn fairy and PGA tour, but it's pretty unique to see what the players want. They're so different and ultimately, um, I'd be curious like you don't have to name names, but what is the the most amount of clubs you guys have had to build for one player in an event and like go through that process.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm not going to say that we sit around and we look through the order system and come up with those numbers on our own or anything but no, you know it's funny throughout a year, gosh, you might get somebody up there with 20 or 30 different golf clubs and again it's it's. It's typically the unique golf clubs, it's not the core set of irons. Sometimes a player is thinking about reworking the wedges in their bag, so they'll go through a couple of different wedges. Maybe they started off with a 50, 54, 60, and now they're thinking about adding a 56 and a 52. And so you're making some of those changes.
Speaker 2:But I would say our most work on a weekly basis tends to be in the long end of the bag. Not necessarily those changes, but I would say our most work on a weekly basis tends to be in the long end of the bag, not necessarily the driver, but finding a three-wood that they can utilize for that course, potentially looking at a five-wood. Or the hottest club these days are seven-woods, Long utility irons. I think everybody out there, from the amateur all the way up through the tour player, they want to play a three iron, they want to play a four iron, but they're not always the easiest golf clubs to hit.
Speaker 2:No they're not Introducing them to hybrids or seven woods or utility irons that are different from that of what they have in the rest of their set. So that tends to be the most work that we do out there. So yeah, I mean you could see guys. You get some guys that honestly, all they do is they come in the truck and have their loft and lies checked, and then you get other guys that are out there every week searching for something just to give them that little bit of edge to push them to the PGA Tour.
Speaker 1:There's a little bit of a backstory to this, and Noah and I go rounds on this.
Speaker 2:But what is the highest lofted degree wedge you guys have ever custom fit for somebody? We used to carry a 64 degree. That was a stock club in our line. Every once in a while you'd get somebody sneaking that to 54 and a half Right now. Currently we seem to find that sweet spot at 62 being the highest lofted club. But it's funny, a lot of these college kids, you know a lot of these kids, come out of college and their coaches, you know, suggest and recommended them playing 58s and learning how to play 58. So, honestly, moving them into a 60 once they start to get to a tour caliber golf course, it's a lot of loft, you know. And then they have the capability of adding loft to that as they, you know, move the club through the ball so rarely. But yeah, I mean there there are definitely a lot of you know a couple of 62s out there. But, you know, every once in a while you'll see somebody sneaking it a little bit closer to that 64 nowadays, but not too much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so ultimately, let's talk about that, because you are a tour fitter and the way I look at loft is it can be utilized in so many ways. Um, a tour player is totally different than an amateur golfer, and so when you're out there and, like you said, trying to get them ready for tour golf, why do you think they go to a 60 versus a 58? Obviously, I have some ideas, but what's your biggest reasoning that you've seen that they're going to 60 or 62 instead of staying at 58?
Speaker 2:I think a lot of it starts off they feel like they need to have the 58 degree because of the gapping. If they look through their set, the majority of clubs are anywhere from three to four degrees in between golf clubs. Sets are getting stronger nowadays so you tend to see guys kind of move into that 58. When they get out to the PGA Tour or the Corn Fairy Tour in my case, the greens start to change a little bit. The pin placements start to change.
Speaker 2:In some cases the courses they play in college are unbelievable golf courses and tough, but the pin placements aren't poor pin placements and when they start to see those and they get short-sighted they're looking for just that faster stop. Sometimes we can take care of that with just making sure that one they're in the right golf ball. Potentially they might be in the wrong ball, but it's amazing how many guys this season have come to us and said you know, gosh, I haven't been fit in five years. I've never been fit, you know, and so sometimes they just don't know Right and they're. They're just looking for that little bit of edge. But again it it comes down, I think, a lot of times to the pin placements and the green speeds that they're seeing on this level, that they just want to make sure they get the best stopping power that they can.
Speaker 3:So what is the number one shaft you're fitting a tour player into for a wedge these days?
Speaker 2:You know, bob did a test years and years ago when he first started with a company and tested a variety of different shaft companies, different flexes. The shaft that stuck out to him and to a lot of the people he tested was the Dynamic Gold and it happened to be the S200. And that's why you see a lot of our stock shafts going to the consumers in the Dynamic Gold S200. We'll call it a wedge flex but that's essentially what it is. As you start to move up into higher speed players, you know they might move into an S is. As you start to move up into higher speed players, they might move into an S3.
Speaker 2:A lot of the players on tour use an S400. Just again, because of the weight, the feel it stiffens it up a little bit. The difference between an S2 and an S3 is really just the weight of that shaft. But as the shaft gets a little heavier it gets just a little stiffer and guys like that, as Bob always said, for those touchy-feely shots around the greens. Now, with that being said, there are a variety of different options out there on tour. We have players using stepless shafts like C Tapers and Project Xs. We've got Nippon players using Nippon shafts and KBS players using KBS shafts. But I think if you look at any of the Daryl surveys or anything out there, dynamic gold is probably the dominant shaft when it comes to that, and it might be mostly because of a default. You know, players have just always kind of gone that way and sometimes they just don't know, but it seems to be a choice that people are happy with.
Speaker 1:So a lot of people who have trouble getting their driver and hitting the ball into the air, getting decent height off the driver and they immediately go to. I need more loft on my driver. I need a 10 degree versus a 9 degree. I know that a change in shaft can help them accomplish that a lot. Can you explain how that process works? Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean again, I'll start by saying this you know, if you're looking at your different variables and you know, five, ten years ago people really didn't understand launch conditions. They did things by eyesight and so they see the ball low. Let's go to the higher loft that's going to get the ball up in the air. I'm not going to play a soft shaft because that's what somebody you know, less skilled than I, played. It was a lot of misunderstanding of equipment. With that being said, you know, if you're looking at your launch conditions and you want to affect spin, your spin's too low. Yeah, loft is the fastest way to affect spin.
Speaker 2:I always looked at the shaft as your control. Yes, there are shafts that will launch it a little higher and spin it a little bit more and shafts that will keep that down. But again, shaft to me is what kind of steers the ship. It's what keeps you within the boundaries of the fairway. So I always say that you want to find a shaft that one feels good to, the player, gives them the best control.
Speaker 2:And then, when you're starting to look at it from variables, yeah, I mean, every company out there seems to have a color code system. A lot of your red shafts tend to be the shaft that you're looking for the most height out of. Blue tends to be kind of in the middle. Your blacks, your whites, they tend to be a little bit of that lower ball flight. So yeah, if you see somebody who's height challenged they're not getting a lot of launch and spin out of the ball and they're using a black version of those shafts, you might want to look at a blue or a red and again, that's going to help those variables.
Speaker 2:But the one variable that the monitor can't determine for you is how does that shaft feel? As they're loading the golf club, as they're on their way down in their downswing, are they feeling that shaft kick properly so that they know they can deliver the face of the club to the ball when they expect to? So it's kind of a balance. You can't have one without the other, just like when you're looking at track band numbers or foresight. You can't look at just launch or just spin. You always have to look at those numbers together and how they work together to look at those numbers together and how they work together.
Speaker 3:You know I always used to say the shaft is player preference. You know and I still use that analogy a lot because you're hitting the nail on the head you know I fit indoor now, so much more Dino and ultimately I would say five, six years ago I probably wouldn't have at all, at least with driver, just wanting to see that I feel so good about it. Now I mean we've got we've got Falcons at golf garage and I have quad and then if it's somebody I'm not sure of or something, we'll take them outside um down the road and I think it is a good test regardless to to do that If you have the ability to. How do you feel about indoor versus outdoor um?
Speaker 2:for the average golfer. I know you're fitting more tour players now, but what do you think about that? I mean? Let's first start off by saying, just like everything within golf, the technology has gotten so much better in recent years. I remember some of the first bays that were indoor. One, you always felt like you were going to hit the ceiling. Two, you felt like you had to manufacture a swing to make it look right on the screen. But in today's world you are getting much better consistent ball flights. Obviously, the different systems out there that monitor the golf ball really help with that system. So I think getting fit indoor and outdoor is at this point when you're looking at a driver can equally be the same. It can definitely give you a good understanding.
Speaker 2:I am one of those players that always feels that you got to take things to the course. You got to see how they work. You got to get tight inside of those tree lines, like you can get up there in the Oregon area and even out in Ohio where you feel trapped. And how does that club react in those situations? Again, I think like a driving range, sometimes being in a bay, you just let it go right. It's a video game. You maybe aren't really thinking about it. And same thing on the driving range you know, hey, it's not a fairway, it is a big, huge field that you're hitting out into. You know whether it's a driving range or a practice facility and you sometimes make a different swing than you would on the golf course. So, yes, I think you know, first of all, foremost, always get a custom fit, whether it's indoor or outdoors, and then have the opportunity to take it onto the golf course. Is is killer, because that really allows you to see how you can work it around the golf course.
Speaker 1:What you're saying makes so much sense. As a recreational golfer myself, I know it took me months to get accustomed to swinging in the bay because I'm I'm six foot three, I'm and I'm a tall guy and you know, you feel, I know that I'm not going to be hitting any equipment or the walls in the bay, but it doesn't feel like it. So it's hard to just kind of, you know, let loose and crank at it in in a bay for you. You got that claustrophobic feeling and it took me months to completely get over that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the first bays were basically just screens shoved into an existing room and so that room was designed for aesthetics as far as the people walking in and out of the building. Nowadays people are building bay specifics. I mean, even our bays out at the Titleist Performance Institute that we've just recently put in our renovation are significantly higher than they were prior to that. Again, just not having that understanding. Those original bays were built for robots, so robots didn't care, and then once you start putting people inside of them, they're like well, this is a little tight, let's give ourselves a little bit of room.
Speaker 1:Now again, as a recreational golfer, I I don't think I don't know this for sure I don't think I generate enough club head speed to really warrant a stiff shaft on a driver. Maybe I do, maybe I don't, but I do know that. You know noah talks a lot about shafts being player preference. If I swing somebody else's club who has a regular shaft, I can't get the club face to launch the ball. I I feel like the club face is lagging too much and I feel it's it's for me. It's it feels too whippy, it's just not a comfortable feeling for me. I much prefer the stiffer shaft.
Speaker 2:You know, fitting is such an art and and everybody out there that that fits, you know, kind of brings their, their philosophy into the fitting that you're going to. You're exactly right, you know, if I give somebody a soft shaft they're going to be like oh, this thing's going to spin off the planet, it's going to launch to the moon. But if I load the shaft in a certain way I might get that face to a dynamic loft. That's way less than what the actual loft of the club is. So by the time you deliver it to the ball it's lagging so far behind that you're getting a low ball flight kind of just a squeeze out type shot.
Speaker 1:That's how I feel with the regular shaft yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and you look at a lot of these things, when, when, when the shaft companies put things in paper, on paper so people can read them in print ads, you know and they say, oh, this is to help reduce launch and help reduce spin. You know, I always tell my fitters don't paint yourself into a hole because of the way someone loads a shaft. It may not perform exactly that way. You might not load the shaft enough. In a stepless shaft, for example, to get the ball to create that lower launching, lower spinning flight, you might hold that loft all the way through impact and therefore you're actually launching it up even higher. So, every shaft, you know again, those guys that are playing those extra stiff shafts, with the extra stiff profiles, that's typically because they're loading the shaft so hard that they need it to stabilize so it doesn't overload. And then somebody who maybe has a different tempo and a different move from the top. They're not creating that load and they need that help.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's very player dependent. And you're right. I mean, we used to have a fitter years ago. So you know what shaft should I use? What color do you like? Let's start there, because you can do a lot of things to the shafts and there's a lot of things we do on tour that you know the average consumer may not know that we do or not. It's you know we'll tip straight into the driver head. Well, with the tour player we might cut a half inch or an inch or an inch and a half off the tip section before we even put it into the head. So it almost changes the profile a little bit just to give them a feel that they're looking for.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. Do you know? I'm on the national fitting council for another company I don't know if I told you that and, um, the things that I've gotten to see, and then also being in the tour trailer at the PGA championship a couple of years, um, after you and I met, um, it's just incredible to me. You know terms like hot meld and whatever else that they're using. You know, and, and you guys have everything. It's so cool to get into a tour trailer if you ever get the chance. Um, and it's just like I know you guys are so busy all the time and you guys get ups dropped off. Nobody knows the life you have. I mean, your life is a tour player. Only it's harder because you've got to make them perform and that's. You know how your company does.
Speaker 3:Well, it's such a such a unique opportunity, but also like a very stressful job, in a way right, trying to get into the minds of dozens of tour players.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean, you know so much of our job. Uh is obviously helping the players on a week to week basis. Sometimes it's talking them off of a ledge Uh, I use the analogy Sometimes it's just scratching an itch right Like they, they, they have this feeling that they think that possibly, maybe there's a chance that they should be putting this type of golf club in their bag. And you just have to try it and see. A few years ago I had a player at the Ohio State tournament, just before our tour championship, who was going to the PGA Tour and he said you know, hey, I'm going to the PGA Tour. I know the greens are firmer, I know I'm going to need the ball to stop more. I need a seven wood. And I kind of chuckled at him a little bit. He's like what I go? Well, let's try that Knowing full well that he's already got high ball flight. And as soon as I gave him a seven wood, he hit that thing and it looked like a 60 degree coming off within one swing. He turned around yeah, no, 7-wood's not the club for me. I was like, no, but we'll find something that's a little more appropriate. Maybe it's a hybrid, maybe it's a special utility iron I'm like, but you don't need a 7-wood. But again, it's trying those things out.
Speaker 2:As far as the stress level goes, on my end I'm going to tell you something. I really enjoy my job. I've had some unbelievable mentors over the years throughout the industry, throughout mentors over the years throughout the industry, throughout Titleist, that have really helped. I love what I do. It's not stressful, it's fun talking to those players. I'm not the type of person that's going to go back to my house or home and play those little you know phone video game, puzzle games. My puzzle game is working with the players and just trying to figure out really what fits to them.
Speaker 2:And again, some of the best advice I ever got as a fitter was you know, it's golf, right, it's not brain surgery. Have fun with it. If you make a mistake today, that's okay, we can fix it tomorrow. You know, maybe we think, oh gosh, this guy needs a 10 degree and this model head, this is going to be absolutely perfect for him and it's not. We have many other options and you just try that. So it's, it's fun, I really enjoy it and the guys are great and especially when you're dealing with corn fairy tour players. They're coming out of school, they're all excited for their next part of their life and you know they're very open to suggestion and listening and learning and that's that's the best part of the job is just helping train these guys get ready for it.
Speaker 1:So at the pro level, you've got so many dynamics at play with each player, you've got the player. They maybe have multiple coaches a speed coach, a performance coach, you know.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:They have their caddy, they have their fitter. Do you ever find that there's conflict between what the player comes to you saying they want and what, and the direction their coach is trying to take them?
Speaker 2:oh, absolutely. I mean, I've I've got many stories of coaches walking in the truck and saying my player needs this hybrid. And then you bring the hybrid out to the player and they're like I, I don't want this, I don't, I don't want a hybrid. Uh, you know, you get parents same things. Uh, agents, players themselves, you know again, it's yeah, you do you have a lot of that chatter. I always prefer to talk to the player. You know, if I do get a caddie or a coach or a trainer or whoever approaching me about it, my next call is usually to that player just to confirm that that's what they're looking for.
Speaker 2:And then to find out why they're looking for it and that might help us in some cases. Maybe somebody does want a 7-wood, or need a 7-wood in their bag, but they're looking for that lower flight or certain speed to it. So I'm not going to build it at a standard length. Maybe I'll go a little shorter so they can get more on top of it. But it's also great to have coaches there, because sometimes the coaches are working on something within the swing and today they need a club that's going to help them produce the ball flight. So this kid can go out and play in a tournament for the next four days Knowing full well, you know, yeah, three or four weeks later they might be at that spot and they don't need that 7-wood anymore or that club.
Speaker 3:So do you remember Grant Callahan? Do you know that?
Speaker 3:Oh absolutely so. I, I, I didn't meet Grant until he was with foresight and obviously he's not there anymore, but, um, that's where I met him in Columbus, ohio, at Muirfield, and he told me we became friends and he told me that he worked with the young guns at Titleist. So he actually worked with Bob quite a bit and I'm sure you, you know, with you and whoever. But ultimately what was really funny was he told a story that kind of goes hand in hand with what you're saying, where he's standing behind Bob there on the tour T PGA tour I believe at the time. Um, because the young guns obviously, the way I understand it correct me if I'm wrong was all the new up and coming tour players, like rookies, correct, of the guys that were out on the PGA Tour.
Speaker 3:And so you know, Vokey's like hey, take notes on what this player wants. And he's standing there and he's writing all this stuff down and Vokey's listening. He's like, ok, sounds good, yep, I'll make that wedge for you right now. Um, vokey's listening, he's like okay, sounds good, yep, I'll, I'll make that wedge for you right now. And I think the player wanted something like uh, we'll just use the S grind. And he wanted you know, you know five degrees of bounce and you know nothing realistic, right. So he goes back to the starts, walking back to the tour truck and and um, grant's starting to read it off to him and he's like, yeah, that's not what he needs. Hold on a second.
Speaker 3:And he's like, just take note. And he goes in and builds him something completely different than what the tour player asked for, comes back out and he says here you go, here's the wedge you wanted. Hits it, peers. It says oh Bob, this is great, this is exactly what I wanted. You're like right, Maybe, maybe not, yeah.
Speaker 3:But, but ultimately Grant literally was in awe, like it was one of those aha moments Cause he was kind of a rookie at the same time. I believe it was like his first year. So it's just like incredible to me that, like you're saying, it's an art and a science. You know in fitting and ultimately to have someone like yourself that is a truly a master fitter. You know to really go down maybe a rabbit hole with a player but at the same time know when to stop and know you know how to talk to them to make them play the best golf that week. That's incredible.
Speaker 2:Right, so there's a little bit of psychology in what you do.
Speaker 2:Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, these players have gotten there for a reason. They're great players. Um, sometimes when they come out as rookies or their first season, or maybe they're coming back to the corn fairy tour, they're a little nervous and dejected and not really sure if they belong. And you have to remind them sometimes. I mean, I had a player last week where I just kind of looked at him I'm like dude, you're, you were one, you were one time the number one junior in the world, like, come on, you know what to do. And he had a great tournament this last week, you know.
Speaker 2:So you just sometimes you just got to talk to these guys and pump them up and you know, your story about bob is is absolutely. You know, bob is bob's one of those treasures in golf, like like so many you know before him, and it's they know, you know, they've seen it, they've done it all. You know, they've worked with hundreds and hundreds of people and Bob's biggest gift and unique gift is he doesn't forget a fitting. He will remember a fitting he did with you three, four, five years ago and it's it always impresses the player when he you know Bob pulls that information back. So it's really awesome, yeah.
Speaker 3:So who is your limelight fit Like? Who was like the highest profile fitter coming through or a player that's come through, titleist that you fit?
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean. Well, you know when I, when I first started at TPI it was green, I had gone through all the fitting seminars and I knew how to fit for this and that I'd spent a couple of years on the Titleist Science Van. So driver and ball fitting was good. But when I got to Oceanside and all of a sudden the names of players that I grew up watching started showing up, I mean to be able to be on the T and work with, with Davis Love and Ernie Els. You know, heck, I had Nick Faldo out one time.
Speaker 2:Sir Nick Lee Trevino came out with his, you know, with his son, and just to listen, because he and Bob are very good friends and had been friends for many years. But to hear the banter of those two back and forth, telling stories of you know Bob's old workshop and Vista and you know Trevino working the front counter. So it's it's, you know it's no different than anybody who's in their, you know, mid forties to late fifties. It's the people that we grew up watching and you know to be able to have them kind of look at you and go wow watching. And you know to be able to have them kind of look at you and go wow, I never thought of that. Like, are you kidding me? You know, explaining ball flight to a, uh, a Curtis, strange right, you know, like, like, like, like, I'm going to tell him something he doesn't know.
Speaker 2:You know I'm, it was pretty cool.
Speaker 1:This process is so fascinating and I can only imagine it's very difficult to work with the demands of players that are at such a high level. But do you find it easier to to work with those demands with a player that can just swing and hit the ball so consistently to get them fitted, versus an amateur?
Speaker 2:Yeah. What what do you? What do you?
Speaker 1:find easier or more or more enjoyable as an experience for you.
Speaker 2:I'll tell this to any fitter that's out there you learn as much working with the higher handicap, the new golfers and the recreational golfers as you do with the tour players. So much of what I do on the tee with the tour players is referring back to those days. It's no different. The golf club doesn't know who's swinging it. Ball flight is ball flight. If you saw a trend with a 15 handicap and it fits with a tour player, you go with it. Right, you go down that road. So you know you can't put the tour players so much in a box and say it's a unique fitting. It's very similar. You're still, you're communicating, you're listening and I'll say listening one more time, because that's the biggest key as a fitter.
Speaker 2:So often as a fitter, when somebody walks in the door you assume they're ready to blow up their entire golf bag and if you just stop and listen to them, you might realize it's one or two clubs that really need to be focused on. So is it easier with one or the other? It really isn't. It's the same. Everybody has the unique preference. There's consumers out there that want to hit three irons. There's tour players that want to hit three irons and neither one of them, you know, should be hitting a three iron because of whether they don't have the speed, the skill or the ball flight. So it's, it's really no difference on who you're fitting it's, and that's why I enjoy the fitting aspect of it. You get to meet so many different people.
Speaker 3:Oh, without question. So this is an interesting one, because you're obviously out there a few days prior to the players playing in an event and you're following them around. Where does putter come into here? Because obviously that's the most important piece or tool Got to get the ball in the hole.
Speaker 1:They're all good hitters, even crossed my mind right, I mean like what?
Speaker 3:and even when I was there obviously you know title list partners up with the putter. You know specific brand. There's, everyone knows, scotty cameron and it's not even located at your department. So I was just curious like how, where do you guys come into play in the putter realm and how do, how do you guys help those guys?
Speaker 2:yeah, you know it's. It's a little more unique on the corn ferry tour than the pga tour. Uh, we do have a putter specific rep that's out on tour with us. Uh, that works with those players. He, you know, hangs around the green. Um, he, he probably hangs around in the truck more than he would like. He would prefer, prefer to be more out on the green working with players, showing them product and helping them out. Uh, but you know, between the, you know changing the weights and you know cutting down the shafts or reshafting something, uh, heck, it might be as much. As you know, my top line is black. I really wish it was red.
Speaker 3:Um, you know it's, it's those little nuances Because his friend told him that his was red and he really liked it right.
Speaker 1:Has he ever poured sand down the shaft of a tour player?
Speaker 2:I'm not going to say that they've never done that, but you don't see it as much anymore.
Speaker 3:I poured salt down a shaft once. Did you? Yeah, I did yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. It probably melted with water.
Speaker 2:But I mean, here's the thing, you know, that's, that's the things that we had to do when you didn't have the right tools Right. So, years ago, here's your shaft, here's your putter, here's your club. Well, I just don't think it's right. I mean, guys would step on the putter heads and bend the shafts to get their lie angle to where they think the putter would sit, Right. They may have just affected the loft as well, but hey, the lie angle is perfect. That's what I'm looking for. Yeah, player, you know, I remember being an assistant golf pro. Yes, we would take sand and dump them down the shaft to give it a little bit more weight. But now you've got different materials that we can utilize. Heck, we got different shafts. I mean, let's be honest. I mean when would you have ever used a graphite shaft in a putter? You know, 20 years ago. Well, it's so prevalent nowadays. It's just, you know, things have changed and, thank goodness, you know, the companies are out there making the product, so it makes our job a little bit easier.
Speaker 2:Going back to your original question on putters, it's a vital part, I mean, there's no doubt about it. I don't spend a lot of my time working on putters unless our putter rep doesn't happen to be there that week. But again, you know, yeah, it's what gets the ball in the hole. It's the area that everybody is focusing on as we start to creep into the June Julys of our season and we start getting close to the tour championship. It's amazing how many people you see start to change putters. I think just make one more putt, you know, and and maybe it's a head shape, Maybe it's truly now asking the question of what they should be using. Okay, I'm, I'm tired of me telling you, let me you tell me. Yeah, it happens definitely in that middle of the season.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do you know? I mean, it's incredible to to hear these stories of the up and coming, and you have one of the coolest jobs ever. I think I would much rather be on the corn ferry than the PGA tour. Like you said, it just seems like the personalities aren't quite there. The same way, as far as having to maybe deal with someone that's made it, um, but ultimately, um, you have this opportunity to see someone the next year, or maybe halfway through the year. They've already gotten their tour card because they've won three events or whatnot, and that's just so special, um, you know, I guess, since you're primarily in the States, when you guys are probably traveling around for corn ferry, um, the turf conditions are totally different around the country, though. So what are you touching a little bit on, what you're primarily changing as you go from a Bermuda grass to a rye grass, to a desert golf course, to Kikuyu right? What are you looking at, um, or what are the players looking at, I guess, from your perspective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, again, you know you, you take the core middle part of the set, which is the irons, and there's not a lot of change. That goes on from there from week to week. Depending on the grass, it's the wedges and it's the upper part of the bag. Players are looking at different bounces. When I get a player for the first time coming to me at Ocean or to our Pedals Performance Institute before the season even starts, they've never been on the corn ferry One of the things I always make sure they do is walk away with two lob wedges. Let's find a wedge that has some bounce to it and let's find a wedge that has minimal bounce. So you know, hey, this last week we played in Dallas, right? So Texas, it's going to be firm, it's going to be hard, it's going to be firm, it's going to be hard, it's going to be compact. Everybody's beating us up the week prior to, you know, like, hey, give me my low bounce option, I need to be ready for next week. And then they get four days of rain and the course is soft and they have to revert back to their lab wedge.
Speaker 2:So I always tell guys, you know, like, yes, the usga states that you have to. You can't play with any more than 14 golf clubs. You better show up to these tournaments with 16 or 17. You know you might need a hybrid versus a long iron. You might need a wood versus a hybrid. You may need, you know, a higher bounce wedge versus a low bounce wedge.
Speaker 2:I'm a big believer in if you're taking something out of the bag, you better be putting something back in the same quadrant.
Speaker 2:I'm not a fan of taking a wedge out of play to put a two iron in the bag. At some point you're going to wish you still had that wedge that you took out. So as long as you're just moving things based on bounce and quite frankly, nowadays you're seeing more and more players using higher bounce in their gap wedge, in their sand wedge, whether it's 54 or 56. It's the lob wedge when they get close to the greens and they're trying to hit those precise shots that they're going to change between a low bounce and high bounce, and you're right. You know the PGA Tour is manicured pretty much the same week in and week out, depending on what course you go to. Yes, there's different varietals of grass but they're cutting and manicuring it the same when you get to the corn fairy tour, when you get to the average consumer, when you get to collegiate golf, it changes. So yeah, you're doing yourself a disservice showing up to those events and not having an option in a lob wedge.
Speaker 1:You know, I I carry 17 clubs in my bag, yep, and when I'm playing in a tournament I gotta take a few out. And I'll tell you the ones I normally take out. I take out my five wood and if you look at my five wood, it's like it looks brand new. It's six years old and it I I can.
Speaker 1:You know I've only hit it a handful of times. I use my three wood consistently. Right, I take out my four iron, unless it's a heavily wooded wooded uh course, where I'm gonna have to be hitting, you know, low punch shots I'll teach you how to hit a nine iron lower than your four iron right.
Speaker 1:Do you know we can do that okay, let's, let's do that, and I I carry the infamous 69 degree wedge. Yeah, wow, there you go and I and I'll tell you what that's. That's the new favorite club in my bag, because I get to hit a flop shot without having to hit a flop shot, right because I'm not that skilled to manipulate wedges like the pros are so yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:Let me say this you know like our primary focus week in and week out is to make sure that we can be there to loft, line and re-grip golf clubs.
Speaker 2:I would much rather say that I went through an entire week and didn't have to work on anybody's clubs on the range, trying to fit a tour player into a golf club on a Monday or Tuesday and think that they're going to have 100% confidence in that golf club, even if they absolutely hit it perfect on the range. Confidence in that golf club, even if they absolutely hit it perfect on the range. When they get that heat of competition on a Friday trying to make a cut, or Saturday or Sunday trying to move up the leaderboard and they've only had one or two rounds with it, it's hard to really fathom that they're going to be able to hit that properly. So I would always prefer to have that work done. Like you said, show up with 16 clubs. You've hit that club, you've practiced with that club, you know what that club's going to do. Obviously there's emergency cases week in and week out, but the best players they're, they're, they're not spending a lot of time with me Monday, tuesday and Wednesday because they're ready to go.
Speaker 3:That's such good advice, literally worth the price of admission right there. Do you know? I mean, that is gold right there, what you just said. Hey Dino, we're going to wrap up a little bit here. I just wanted to thank you again for being here with us. Your family is incredible. Your mom, eileen, and your dad, I mean they ran the Northern Ohio PGA for how long was that?
Speaker 2:Over 20 years.
Speaker 3:And previous to that, your dad and your mom ran a golf course together, correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my, my father was a club professional at a at a few golf courses in the Cleveland area. He was the head professional and my mother was. My mother was the buyer for the golf shop. Uh, well, before you know, we saw a lot of women buyers out there, so she always had a very successful golf shop because women would come from all over to shop her goods.
Speaker 3:You guys were ahead of your time obviously your whole family and did you work for your dad at all?
Speaker 2:You know I did. I swore I never would Just like, just like he never gave me lessons because I wouldn't listen to him. But yeah, right out of college I did spend a season working with him out at Fox Meadows.
Speaker 3:Oh man, that's awesome and I mean what's really weird? I obviously came from Oregon, married my wife and we were in the Willamette Valley area. A lot of good golf up there too. But moving across country to Cleveland, I had family there but I had never played golf. Moving across country to Cleveland, I had family there but I had never played golf. The amount of golf and good golf in Northeast Ohio is mind-blowing. The private clubs in that area I think there's six within 10 miles that are all pre-1923.
Speaker 2:It's amazing. We can sit there and talk about the country clubs in Northeast Ohio all you want, but the public courses are amazing. I mean to think you've got a Donald Ross Manikiki golf course. When I lived back in Cleveland you could play 18 holes for $24 with a cart. You know, I mean it was yeah, Donald Ross.
Speaker 3:who's that? If you don't know who Donald Ross is, please Google them.
Speaker 2:Just look at Pinehurst, number two.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that'll be all right right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:So Dino you're on the road, very, very blessed.
Speaker 1:What you do is a grind. You're out there on the road all the time. You're traveling with the Corn Fairy Tour. Do you have time to play these spectacular courses while you're out there?
Speaker 2:We do. Sure, you know, I mean, especially when you're talking about the Midwest in the summer and you get lucky enough to see daylight until nine, you know 930 at night, we'll go out after we shut down the truck at five o'clock and play some of these courses. You know, I'll admit you know, when I was in Columbus I had to sneak over to Scioto and play that redesign. But yeah, you know you do and trust me, my first couple of years I had a truck, I had a bag on the truck and it was there every week. You start to tire down, you know, get a little older, it's like, yeah, the hotel doesn't sound too bad after a full day of work, but you do, you get the opportunity, you get to play some unbelievable golf courses no-transcript.
Speaker 1:What is your all-time favorite course?
Speaker 2:Oh geez, that's a tough one for me, I just enjoy styles. That's a tough one for me, I just enjoy styles. I mean, living in Southern California for the last 27 years, I really miss the type of golf courses you see back in Ohio. You know what's my all-time favorite golf course Gosh. You know, all day you've given me questions that I've been able to answer and that's the hardest one to answer. I'm probably going to have to say Firestone, just because I absolutely love that style golf course.
Speaker 2:Which one, though? You know what? That's a great question, because everybody would automatically assume it's the South, which I would say. In this case it might be, but that North course is just as good as anything.
Speaker 3:The North course is incredible. That Island green on 17. Oh, my well, it's not an Island, but it's pretty close peninsula. Yeah, it's brutal peninsula.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know it's again it's. There's just so many good style golf course. I miss tree line golf courses. If I'm going to say my favorite golf course, it's a tree line golf courses where I've got boundaries, I, I, I can hit the ball sideways sometimes, but as soon as I get in the boundary I play so much better golf.
Speaker 1:I got that. I played. I missed my tree-lined courses. I played Coeur d'Alene Resort a couple years ago. Yeah, very much tree-lined, but you also have the water, you also have the island green. It was like the best of everything kind of wrapped into one course. It was so cool.
Speaker 3:You know, you need to come up to Oregon. Man, you got a place to stay. Anytime you want, let's go. We'll go up to Northern too. We'll go play pumpkin. Columbia, royal Oaks, all those you want, tree lined that's, that's good, and it's not quite as wet as Seattle, so that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:So after a long day after a long day of work in the truck. Where's your favorite place to go eat? What do you look for?
Speaker 2:but uh, my favorite place to go eat is something local um I spent three years on our science. I spent three years on our science van traveling around uh, california to detroit and going to chipotle and chilies, and outback all the time and said are you kidding me? We're in texas, how are you not having barbecue? Or kansas city? So, honestly, my favorite place is anything local that has a good rating. I'm going to give it a shot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, dino, where are you up to next? Where are you headed?
Speaker 2:So the next event that we'll be heading out to is Kansas City in two weeks.
Speaker 3:Nice. It's going to be a little, probably actually good time of the year to go. There might be a little warm. Where um are you coming up to? Oregon or the Northwest at all?
Speaker 2:Not anymore. Um, you know, we used to have an event there at pumpkin Ridge, um, and, and now it's it's no more. Um, that was always. I loved it, you know. I mean it's uh, coming from Southern California and being able to enjoy the beer down here, it's fun going up there and trying to debate who's got the better breweries, but yeah, oregon at Pumpkin Ridge was phenomenal and my sister lives up there, so it's always a good excuse to go up to Oregon.
Speaker 1:I'm a frequent player at Sandpiper Golf Club in Santa Barbara, California. Have you been there?
Speaker 2:Oh, how beautiful is that golf course. I mean Santa Barbara is a treasure in itself and, yeah, that that sandpiper is so cool for a, for a public golf course, to be able to just go out there and play that and be right on the ocean. It's, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:It's like a cross. It's like a cross between Pebble Beach and Torrey Pines and it literally sits right in in between them.
Speaker 2:And it literally sits right in in between them. Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean it's if you started off in San Diego, you know, with the family, and you take them to the zoo one day and you go play Torrey Pines and you just work your way all the way up North. There's some unbelievable yeah Coastal golf courses that you know, it's Sandpiper's phenomenal, yeah.
Speaker 3:Hey, dino, we appreciate it. Man, I know you're busy, you got a young family too, and I think you were saying you were just maybe driving them home or whatnot, earlier today. So it's been a true pleasure. You are full of education. We hope to have you on the show again in the future.
Speaker 2:But thanks for taking the time. No, thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure and, uh, you know, hey, I love this job and I love talking golf, and what a great platform. So thank you so much for having me thanks, dino. Have a great day my friends have a great one, all right bye, noah.
Speaker 1:What do we have to look forward to next week?
Speaker 3:man, we've got a couple things to look forward to.
Speaker 1:Um excited to most likely get into talking about ball fitting a little bit definitely we're gonna have a lot about clubs, but there's so many high quality golf balls on the market now that just weren't there a few years ago yeah, it's.
Speaker 3:It's the thing that we cared about back in the day. The ball curved so much more than it does now. You played the the tour ballad I would cut. We're not going to ruin the podcast, but I'm excited to talk with you about ball fitting and get some questions in and talk a little bit more about some tips and tricks next week as well. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Thanks Noah, Thanks Darren, We'll do it again next week. Bye Bye.
