Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 0:08

Hey, I'm Reggie Ponder, the Reel Critic, and this is the Reel Critics Network. I always get the pleasure of talking to my friend Katia Woods. We don't always agree, she be on another level. You know how she is. She be like, "Let me talk about this," and, "Let me talk about that." But maybe we'll agree today. Hey, Katia Woods, how are you?

Kathia Woods 0:27

Good. we got a little controversy. We can talk about it later on, but not us, but we still have our people that are not very, how can I put this, media, Literate

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 0:38

Well, let's get into it 'cause you know our first segment is always what's on

What's On My Mind

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 0:42

our minds. So what's on your mind? Bring it up, bring it on, girl.

Kathia Woods 0:45

You and I both know we've seen some iteration of Children of Blood and Bone. And one of the things that I saw it at CinemaCon. People before that in LA got a first glimpse of seeing it. Paramount invited people to come see it. There was just a trailer event in New York, right? And then they're coming to NABJ as well as Martha's Vineyard, right? So meanwhile, the author, let me make sure, Tomi Adeyemi has made two posts about this and not said anything. The first post she made included screenshots with Amandla Stenberg, right? And she said she's not supporting the film. Then yesterday she made a post due to the fact that the trailer dropped, right? And she said it was crippling and, all of these things. First of all, if you're having to the point where it's affecting your mental health, stay off of social media. You can block everything and associate it with this movie. You already made a video saying that you're disassociating yourself. Now, the issue that I have is the Black woman, Gena-Prince Bywood, is catching stray. The cast is catching stray, and people are going off on the ramp about what could possibly be happening. There's a lot of speculation, people writing incomplete articles about the fact that she may be upset about the lack of creative control. Mind you, there's also interviews of her saying that everything was great, that she was happy with the casting, she was happy with what she got. We don't know what happened, and there may be a myriad of reasons why she can't discuss what happened due to legal and the fact that, you know, paperwork. And not to mention is she probably doesn't have the means. Paramount got 15 lawyers and she may have one. At this particular point, I am like, "Since you're not going to divulge, if it's so severe, here's your thing," and I don't wanna victim shame at all. Either sue or let it go. Because you constantly making these videos without saying what happened doesn't help your case. We don't know whether or not Ha- people are within a catch 22. They're like, "If something was done to her, do we still support the movie?" A lot of people, not me, because I work on facts, but I'm saying a lot of people are, it's like trying to do double dose, trying to be a little bit pregnant. And also, it is in some ways showing a little bit of lack of maturity. I think there's two conversations, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. We need to have a course for Black people in this creative space, and this is not just her, this is period, about understanding what it means when a studio approaches you for wanting the rights to your work. We saw this, and I can't believe I have to say her name, but I'm just gonna say it. If white authors like JK Rowling, and I don't like that woman, I wanna have that on record, 'cause she's transphobic and also a bunch of other stuff. If people like her are saying that when she sold the rights to Harry Potter to Warner, she understood that they had the creative control and they were going to make changes that were going to be more fitting for the screen. Stephen King has had, and gazillions, we just saw The Long Walk, of his work adapted. If you look, if you read The Long Walk and you look at the movie, you saw that the movie has a different ending than the book.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 4:43

We just saw that, we saw that with The Odyssey as well.

Kathia Woods 4:46

Yeah.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 4:46

Is that, that when you

Kathia Woods 4:47

look at- But no, Homer is not, but Homer's not here. He's-

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 4:49

I know, but when you look at The Odyssey-

Kathia Woods 4:51

Yeah

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 4:51

I was having this discussion with some people just yesterday. They were like, "Well, they didn't include this. They didn't have this in it. They missed that. They changed this." So the, so your point, overall point is that when you do sell your rights and you don't ke- keep creative control, is that things may change.

Kathia Woods 5:08

I just, again, I'm using white authors 'cause I don't want people to say this is something that's only happens to Black authors. Because I want you... Julia Quinn, who wrote the Bridgerton novels, just talked, made a public statement when they changed the character of Michael from a man to a woman and changed that story from being a heterosexual story to now being an LGBTQIA story. And she said that she was A little disappointed, but having spoken to the creative team, she understands. And she was very clear. She was like, it wasn't that she had the problem with the representation, it was the fact that this is not how she wrote it, and this is not how she create- how she envisioned the characters. And for her, it's a mourning, and that's what all these authors are saying. So I'm trying to understand is, did she not know this? Did she not have anybody to counsel her? Because I think people don't understand, especially if you... You can have a very successful book, and we saw this with the guy with... Was it Nicholas Sparks, right? A lot of his books have sold really, really well, but a lot of his books have not translated into hit movies, right? I don't... So the question I'm having, and you definitely tell me if I'm off in outer space. Number one, when you sell your work, even though you're successful on this side of the aisle, bestselling author, it doesn't mean you'll be successful in the movie realm. And the studio is saying, "We like your story. However, we need to make changes in order for it to work on a screen," right? If the book is, let's say 800 pages, nobody wants to sit through a four-hour movie. We all complain about three-hour movies as it is, right? We also... You may have envisioned the character to be 5'4", 200 pounds. Nothing wrong with people that look like that. But the studio is "We can't sell tickets on that. We need to sell tickets with a star. We need a reason other... We need to also bring in the people that may not have read the book," right? Also, we need a director that has. So there is a education piece that I feel like our people need to understand is that you co-writing a script, you having a producer credit, does not mean you are in charge of what is what. You can make suggestions. When she did her contract, she got a couple of the wins. But at the same token, the studio's putting up the money, and the studio, and in this case Gina, right, get to decide. So you let me know, am I tripping, as you would say?

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 7:54

I don't think you're tripping. However you might be falling a little bit. And what I mean by I, I don't really think you're tripping, but- This is, it really is a complicated minefield to navigate. And that is why when you look at somebody like Ryan Coogler, is that when he did Sinners, he did a different kinda deal. But what I'll say to that is that just heard Oprah in an interview saying that, hey, she had to do a lot of things she needed to do, so in the end she could do some of the things that she wanted to do. So Ryan Coogler now is at the point where he can do the things that he wants to do. And so I'm not mad at a author who is like, "Man that's not working for me. That's not what I thought it was gonna be." It's a education process, and this is, this'll probably help this author down the road, that it's a education process. What do you put in your contract? How do you write your contract? Do you sell it if you don't like-

Kathia Woods 8:58

What can you ask for? How about that?

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 8:59

Do, do you-

Kathia Woods 8:59

What can you ask for when you, even though you have a best-selling book, right? What can you realistically ask for as a author?

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 9:08

Right? What can you realistically ask for? And then, but hold on, hold on. And then if you don't like it, maybe you just don't, maybe you just don't sell it, right? But here is the piece that we don't know, is that a lotta times, and I know this for a fact because, and I know you do too because you've been on sets more than I have, is that on set things change. And so you would've agreed to something, and all of a sudden we're like, we change this, they improv this, s- things change. And you could not be happy with those things that changing at the moment on set. So I, I, since we're not in the room, I'm not upset that she's upset. What I am having a problem with is the fact that we have two African American women who are both trying... it's disappointing, but I can't be mad at the author for not being upset 'cause I wasn't in the room. I don't know at what point in time did they not adhere or breach the contract or do things that were different than she thought that they were gonna be. I j- I just don't know. But at the same time I don't like the fact that Gina's gonna catch all of this, this hate array. And what it may ha- what may happen is that in some ways they say good, all publicity is good publicity, so this could boost the movie and boost it where people say, "Let me go see it." But it could also do the opposite, where people say, "Well, if they treating her wrong, then I'm not going to the film." So it, this is a, a dangerous ground to be on, and I'm not happy that we have these two of- very accomplished African American women who- have some differences in the way in which they look at the project, and those differences may actually end up impacting the project very, very negatively

Kathia Woods 11:02

Like I said, I also think it's a business decision. Just from what you hear people say on the internet, we don't have 15, 11 different conversations that in this particular case, not because Gina isn't a capable director, she doesn't have that box office return that some of her peers have. The studio can override her in some of the decision-making. And also there's this other thing is which we've had actors say on multiple occasions that, or creatives you'll come up with something in the writing room, right? And then you get to set and you realize that the logistics and the way it doesn't play out good. It doesn't play out good on screen. So while the idea may have been fantastic, right? When they try to put it to visualization, it didn't translate. Do you understand

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 11:51

what I'm saying? Right. But the pushback that I have, because I know this happens having been on the advertising end and being on set when we're making a commercial, sometimes y- they just want something different. Is that the, the people are sitting in there at that time and they say, "No, what about if we do it like this?" And that is a very, very frustrating period because it's not about it didn't translate on screen. I have a friend who was directing or working with one movie and I told them about this movie, which I will not name, is that they threw a dance scene in there and I didn't like the dance scene. And it was a Black, Black people's movie. And I was told, they was like, "Hey," producer was like, "We need to have a dance scene." That the, that this Black movie needs to have a dance scene. And while my friend is saying, "It didn't make any sense to me," so Reggie it's funny that you caught that, that now everybody talks about as it relates to that movie that was such a great dance scene and they loved the fact that they inserted the dance scene. I'm just saying that, yeah, it could translate on screen, but then in, in some cases it's not even about that. It's about people who are just saying, "I think we should do something different." And here is the problem that I have. I don't know that this is the case, but I know this is the case when I was on advertising sets for the last 26 years, is that a white person would come out and say what they thought Black life should look like in that instance. They would be like, "No, let's put the person here. No, let's put the person with that." And I would be sitting there with this young person who's, 30 years old talking to me, a- and the people who wrote it, about the Black experience and how that should look. And so studios do this all the time Where they come in and be like, "Ah, I don't think it should be like that. I don't think that's gonna translate." But that's the problem with our stuff. So I'm happy with a person like a Ryan Coogler, that he finally got to the point where he can do what he wants to do Because we don't know until the stuff hits the, so we can throw some of our own stuff up against the fan. We, we-

Kathia Woods 14:10

Well, that's the other thing, right? We're having Also, this is the fact. We're also talking about a director who's been in this game for over three decades and doesn't have a problematic reputation. People have creative differences, but when I'm talking about the people in Hollywood that we should be worried about that are, don't care about their workers, don't care about this, don't support this, Gina is not one of those people. Now, you can go in on Paramount, but all of this was green lit before the merger, before they purchased this, right? You can have issues with the head of Paramount, you can have issues with how they're going. But from everything that is going on, Paramount is putting money into this movie as far as the marketing. The fact that they're releasing this on Martin Luther King's actual birthday shows that they understand the Black perspective and the p- importance. The lead publicist for this is a Black woman. So it's not like with all the problems of Paramount, right? And we n- we could do four shows on that alone. They understand that this is important to Black people, period. But just how they're moving, right? But again, at this particular point, 'cause they're gonna be at NABJ as well, and you and I will be at NABJ, asking them, and let's say they do get asked and they are like, "We don't understand, we don't know what's going on," that's still not gonna satisfy people because then people are gonna label it as them trying to skirt over or cover up for the studio when they very well could not be involved. This could be literally a studio versus the author thing, but the Black people per usual are catching the stray.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 16:00

Yeah.

Kathia Woods 16:01

No,

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 16:01

It, it- I just, we're all

Kathia Woods 16:02

involved. If you're not-

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 16:04

And we're gonna have to really actually leave it at that, other than the fact that I will say that I hope that this stellar, this, this stellar cast, when you look at, you got I- Idris, you got Tosin Cole, Viola Davis, Chiwetel Ejiofor, Cynthia Erivo, Regina King Athuso M- I say her name, always mess, mess it up, but I love her, boy. Mbedu and LaTasha Lynch. When you just say those names right there, hopefully the, that this stuff can blow over enough that people will say, "You know what? I'm gonna go not only support Gina as a director, but I'm also gonna support all of the... Oh, I, I didn't mention Da- Damson I- Idris as well. Yeah. But that I'm gonna go out and support it. I'll give you the last word and then we're moving to our movies. I was

Kathia Woods 16:55

gonna say something else since you brought up Ryan, which leads me to my other point. So you now have Ryan, as you said so eloquently, who has had tremendous box office return We're coming off a record Academy Award nominations. He won his first Oscar. He has not had out a movie that has failed at the box office. At Comic-Con Hall H last weekend, he announced the casting of David Johansen as the son of T'Challa, and we still had a meltdown. People still wanted it to be Damson Idris. People still wanted it. So you're kinda like indirectly answering my other question. When you do have a director that has earned, like Ryan, the freedom, we still question it, having not seen a reel. So here's the thing-

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 17:47

But there's a cultural I wanna come in here though. There's a cultural thing- Go ahead there's a cultural thing though that is r- is real. It is absolutely real, and that is For African American men, and I'm gonna speak for us, for African American men, when do we get our t- our turn? That doesn't mean that the person that he's he picked is not good not that guy. But we are always, I'm just telling you, that's just how we feel. We are always saying, "When is it our turn? When do we get to, to do it?" And so when Samuel L. Jackson says, "Hey, there's this British invasion," or the rappers are taking over, whatever, people get really mad. But they don't look at the actual cultural under- underpinnings of that actual argument. It could be shallow as people may think it is, but the s- fact that people feel that in their soul and that they feel that in the way in which we navigate the world has to be addressed in some kinda way. I'm g- Ryan, choose who you wanna choose, but we cannot ignore that as Black men, that we do feel some kinda way. We can't, we can't just be like, "Ah, well, how come Ryan can't do what he wants to do?" He's doing it within the culture and with- and within an environment in which we live.

Kathia Woods 19:06

But also I would be with you, and I respect your right to feel the way that you do, 100%, and I'm not saying that to change your mind. If this was a historic... If this was, like, the Jackie Robinson story, but even Chadwick, all the people in Black Panther. First of all, it's a fictional world. It's make believe, right? Majority of the cast is African American, and mind you, in the movie itself, they're all operating with some type of African accent from one region, right? Nigeria, Kenya, whatever the thing is. Pick something, right? So it's not like he's going to be doing this movie with an African American accent. Then the other thing I have is we have had prominent African Americans, Denzel Washington played Steven Biko, play characters that are not African American. I think he did a wonderful job. So I'm like, we gotta be careful. You, everybody has the right to feel the way they do. But understand this, if you're gonna be over here, then other people have a right to say that African Americans shouldn't play. Some Africans feel some type of way, not because it's David Johansen, right?

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 20:22

I think that's fair. I and I'm not-

Kathia Woods 20:24

way where they're like, "Why didn't you..." If we're not going for necessarily box office draw, right? 'Cause we know David Johansen, but a lot of people don't know, right? Then why not then give a young African man the opportunity to play this character? I'm like, we all got beef with every-

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 20:44

It is. It is, Katia. So I don't have a problem with this pick at all. I wanna make this clear. Yeah. I'm just saying that if we don't understand the environments in which we live and we just dismiss the fact that there are some real sociological things that make people feel this way. So when we look at one point, the top five actors in, Black actors in Hollywood were Will Smith, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Shoot I'm forgetting the top five. But that, that top five of people who are, who were there, the question is who will they be replaced with? And right now they're being replaced with a Idris Elba, a David Oyelowo and, Oh, I I meant Sam Jackson. Sam Jackson was the other person in the top five. Is that they're being replaced with a lot of Brits. Do I have a problem with any one of them? I do not. I do not. So that's not the point that I'm making. The point that I'm making- No,

Kathia Woods 21:46

I know you do not. I'm saying you I know, 'cause he's, he... We also have the advantage

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 21:50

of being- but the, it's a reality. So when I watch TV, and I'm watching commercials, and I see Black men with white women all the time, I, Reggie Ponder has a problem with that. But the fact is that there is a reality that there are Black men with white women. So I'm saying that the advertisers that I talk to, I tell them they need to understand the sentiment that's out there when they do that, and they can go off and do what they do, but they still need to understand that that's a real sentiment out there. Now how Ryan navigates that or not is gonna be, his thing. But I don't think for him it's gonna be a big deal. I think that the initial hope was, that you get a a Damson or whatever, that initial hope. And I think that it, this guy is gonna be good, he's gonna settle in, and I think that that'll be fine. But I think that you bring up a a interesting point. I just don't think that we can act like these things happen in a vacuum, is that-

Kathia Woods 22:52

I think it comes from a multiple places, and you can definitely correct me if I'm wrong. There's so little representation. My issue is we argue amongst each other, and we are not the hierarchy that controls Hollywood. The argument isn't with Black Brits versus Americans or- the diaspora war

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 23:13

That should not be what our argument is

Kathia Woods 23:15

all it does is create infighting. We're all fighting for the same four pieces of crumb. That's the thing at the end of the day.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 23:22

I

Kathia Woods 23:22

agree. The argument is really with Hollywood as a whole, why is it that Caucasians, you get people from the Midwest, you get people from Europe, all parts of Europe, people from all over the world. There is- they all can see each other in whatever iteration they come in. But when it comes to Black people, it's always either these group of people within the diaspora up, these group of people with the diaspora up. And it comes from the fact that there's no one that looks like us that has ever run a major studio. By that I don't mean no shade to anybody that's biracial. I mean somebody that is Black Black, right? And until we get somebody like that to be the voice, to be the greenlighter that can oversee all this other stuff, we are continually going to do that. And in a way we- we're doing the dirty work for them, 'cause they're like, "Listen, they can't even agree amongst each other, so how are we supposed to be able to do that?" That's their fallback argument. And we gotta be smarter and say, "We can feel how we feel, but our argument is really not with each other." Because Idris Elba has power, but he don't have more power than the head of the studio.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 24:39

I think a little bit, I may- maybe I agree with you 70%. Our argument sometimes is with each other. Because we will get our folks in the position where they can make the decision, and we just simply don't like it. In this case, Ryan is- got to make the decision. It's, this is not a, a studio issue, this is a Ryan issue. No, 100%. But the reason this will-

Kathia Woods 25:01

Make the decision

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 25:02

probably never go away Is because the amount of diversity within our film catalog. Within our film catalog, the ones that really make it to the big screen or make it big or whatever, I'm not talking about the smaller independent ones, because you can find some and there's some good work happening on the- One- smaller independent part. But when we start talking about these big budget movies, is that they're just so few and far between. There's just so few of us gonna out there making these movies that are where we have over, that, that cost over 5 to $10 million to make. And because of that we're always gonna have this, "Well, why didn't they use that? How come this person wasn't included?" And- You- And you and I can go on and on, so we can revisit this. But we better visit, we got-

Kathia Woods 25:55

If Samson wanted it. Like Samson i- he may not... That's the other part. We don't know who auditioned, because it's between Ryan, the people, and God. But let's talk Spider-Man. But this was a good discussion. I was really curious to hear what you had to say, 'cause I'm really like What is going on? And then the same token, I'm like, we can't we can't go to war over air, basically. Yeah. And I'm not trying to make light of it, but baby girl, you need to take away from the internet, protect your mental health. And if it's something where you were really hurt, then seek legal counsel about how you can go about this being righted.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 26:33

And it's, and she probably can't because from a legal perspective- Yeah she probably already signed that stuff away. But here's my question. Now, since we're going to a NABJ, National Association of Black Journalists in a couple of weeks what are we gonna see? Are we gonna see the trailer? Are we gonna see the movie?

Kathia Woods 26:46

They're actually doing clips. They're doing clips, and there's probably gonna be a moderator. We don't know who the moderator is. Everybody keeps asking me as co-chair Annie, the one thing that I always ask is the person be a NABJ member. Like, we don't want a, the girl from Fox News who came to convention who's not an NABJ member. We want somebody, and I always push for somebody that comes from arts and entertainment. We don't want the sports girl over here, 'cause we don't get to sit in the sports girl seat. So that's always been my stipulation with that, right? Yeah. Oh. So it's, I'm guessing it will be somebody from Los Angeles. I going to go out on a limb. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm speaking for Katia. I'm hypothesizing that it will be somebody that there'll be, th- I don't think there'll be Q&A. I think the Q&A, I think there'll be discussion, picture, and exit, especially in light of this. I don't think they want to give this any more fire. So I think the room will be filled because people wanna see it that they haven't seen it, they wanna hear what Gina and Tusa have to say about making the process, and I don't think there will be any one-on-one discussions about this. All right. And I think, I honestly don't think so, because Paramount, nobody, the trades have written about it, but Paramount has not given fire, no one associated has given fire to any of this. I think that is the point from the studio. Which is, which is- We are

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 28:19

talking about the

Kathia Woods 28:20

film and the film only. Everything else we are not going to address. 'Cause I think especially for the Black women involved in this, this is a lose-lose. It is. So silence is your best option.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 28:32

It is. So we're gonna turn the page. We're gonna turn to a brand-new page and talk about Spider-Man:

Movie: Spider-Man A Brand New Day

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 28:39

A Brand New Day. And so tell us what this one is about.

Kathia Woods 28:44

We know in the last one he had to erase MJ and all of his friends Their existence of knowing that he's Peter Parker, that he's Spider-Man. So in this one, he lives a very isolated life. He's focused on just, he's become that full-fledged prize fighter, and he lives, and he kinda peeks in on their lives, but he's not. He's very lonely, and he's chosen to do it that way because he doesn't, after he lost Aunt May, he doesn't wanna lose any more people that he loves. But in true Spider-Man fashion, there is a new villain. We have a new anti-hero. We can't say who, 'cause we want you to see the movie. We have The Punisher and the Scorpion are some of the enemies. But there's a bigger enemy at large, and that pulls Spider-Man into having to deal with some of the decisions that he made, especially when it concerns MJ. I really like this film.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 29:46

Oh, you really, really liked it? Okay. I did. So I wanna throw a few things in here just to make sure that people are... To to what Katia said, is that he is more isolated, but he's still mourning the loss of Aunt May. And that mourning of Aunt May is compounded by the fact that he is longing his friends. He wants to be back with his friends. So as Katia says, he's peeking in and seeing what they're doing, and while he's peeking in to see what they're doing, he's also fighting crime. And while he's fighting crime, the issue is he fighting for the right team? He's helping Bill from Damage Control- catch the criminals, and then Damage Control is looking at that technology, looking at the powers, and they're trying to see how they can use it for good. With that being said, you know when you start to do those experimentations, and that's how come you get some of these villains, that you can also see how these things can also be used for evil as well. Whether they will be or not, whether somebody can come in and steal them and use them. And so there's just this big thing around what is happening with the Department of Damage Control, and can they really control all the things that are happening here? There is a new a new character that is- It's not

Kathia Woods 31:14

old, new character. Fine.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 31:15

Well- Go ahead well, it's a new character for some of us, so I'm really glad that you, that I'm really glad that you said that. So this character has appeared in comic books as well as in, in, in cinema on the Fox side of the Marvel, not Marvel Universe, but the Marvel comic world. But it's not a well-known character, it's not one if you're not keeping up with all the things that are happening with Marvel. And so I'm sitting there, and all of a sudden this character is revealed, and people are like, "Ooh and ah." And I'm like, "What's the big fuss about?" Because I didn't know. So I'm letting you know right up front, Reggie Ponder didn't know. So-

Reggie Ponder 32:00

Oh, okay

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 32:00

so because I didn't know, my Marvel people sitting around me, like E-Man and stuff, are looking at me like, You dummy. You don't know what's going on?" So I- There's gonna be some people who are gonna know, and then there's gonna be some people who be like, "Uh, I, I don't know." I don't think you need to know be- to figure out what's going on here, and I think the fa- that the MCU, the people who made this, did a good job of making it. But the real battle here is a physiological and psychological battle. W- as will, will Peter Parker be Peter Parker, or will Peter Parker be Spider-Man? And you can see physiologically that the more isolated he is, the more he is Spider-Man. The more social he is, the more he is Peter Parker. So what percentage do we want as viewers as he struggles with that and tries to find that balance? I think that the genius of this film or the relevance of this film right now is the fact that this new generation is all about work/life balance. They don't wanna work one day just to live another day. They want to find that balance, and that whole, I think that this movie frames that very, very well. You do get the action. The CGI is really good. I'm talking about like being invited to a great adventure watching being invited to great adventure and being part of Spider-Man's journey as he's traversing New York is absolutely fun. But that is not the crux of this movie. This movie is more of an interpersonal introspective film about the character. And the in Marvel took the time to delve into this character. But it also is a film that sets up what's coming next, 'cause you know how they do. That's how Marvel does it. The, I enjoyed this movie. I won't give you my score yet, but what I will say is do not under any circumstances stay for after the credits. It's not worth it. Do not stay for after the credits. Don't do it. You will be pissed off because I was. You know how you stay and it's 15 more minutes before you see everybody's name. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it

Kathia Woods 34:32

I really, really like this movie. I, I think it's the best Spider-Man movie in a l- minute. I think Tom Holland once again proves why he makes a really good Spider-Man. I think for all these people that are like, "He can't act," and whatever, I think Tom Hol- this was Tom Holland's summer to tell a lot of y'all to shut up And this is how he did it without literally coming out and, "Shut up. Lower your voice. Lower your bass." Between The Odyssey and this, he has been fantastic. This is a hearkening back to the comic book Peter Parker that you like, that, that griminess that Marvel gives you when our heroes are fighting with their identity as well as trying to have a regular life, and understanding that that's a sacrifice you make to become this hero, right? I think whatever dips that Marvel had, Marvel is back. Been back. I think DC is in serious trouble. It's been in serious trouble. I feel like the growth and the maturity in all the gra- characters was beautifully handled. I think Destin did a magnificent job in incorporating the great story that was written by the screenwriters, along with the technology. This is what we mean when we say is use the Force for good things. Use the technology for good things. Don't just use it for using it. I think that Zendaya as MJ, this is probably the most complex. There are some parts in there that let you know that she is really a good, beyond capable actor. She's more than just a pretty face. I think that Jon Bernthal was an important, serious part, but he also gave you the, the comedic relief, right? Where they have the New York battle thing, right? I think that was really, really great. Let's talk about Tramell. I'm not mad at Tramell. Tramell said, "You know what? If I'm gonna be in this movies, I'ma be in these movies. I'm gonna not just get the check, but I'm going to be impactful." From- He, he does

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 36:47

Mr. and

Kathia Woods 36:48

Mrs. Clark This is a really, really good

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 36:50

character.

Kathia Woods 36:50

This- Really

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 36:51

good character

Kathia Woods 36:52

he has shown you that he is... We al- we always knew this, but he has tremendous range, and I love this for him. I think for the comic book nerds, you really gonna love this. The h- ode to another group of anti-heroes in there, and I think this iteration of this character is a little bit more than what a lot of the comic book nerds want.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 37:16

And- And I think that's why, and that's why there was so many oohs and aahs. These people were ju- And there was some claps, actually, in the theater that I was in.

Kathia Woods 37:26

People- I was like, "Okay, so this is true," right? 'Cause there were a lot of rumors. And also I wanna say that the- The end, like he brought it together. What he did was, what I like that he did is he ended it on a positive, but he didn't give you that everything is perfect now. He still left some things a little-

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 37:48

Unresolved

Kathia Woods 37:49

unresolved, as there should be. Yeah. Because once they working through it, and he is, him and MJ, he is giving us that it's a work in progress, right? Now, here's a 24 minute... This movie the, also this movie gonna make. When I tell you, like Sony about to make money hand over fist. People are gonna go see this movie more than once. I literally left the theater and I said, "I will pay to see this again." And you know right now we're not in a lot of movies where we say that. We like, "Ooh, once was enough. Don't need to see this again." I just think this is a beautiful, intelligent movie that happens to have a superhero in it. And I mean that in the highest compliment, that it reaches the comic book nerds, but at the same time if you're not a comic book nerd, you can also enjoy this movie. You don't feel like you need to do homework for this. Now, on the technical side, beautifully shot. There, the cinematography, the scenes between MJ and Peter Parker are vulnerable, are beautifully touched, the music, all of it. That's why I said it's a complete film that happens to have a superhero theme. I will also say this, for some of you that have younger kids, it's PG-13. I personally, as a mom, don't think this is appropriate for six to seven-year-olds. I definitely think you need to be a middle schooler. I would say the youngest, maybe, like, 10. I don't think you need to be taking your four-year-old. It's a lot going on. It's very serious, and I don't know if they have necessarily the mental capacity to sit through all of these complexities that are going on. This ain't Spider-Man the cartoon. This is grown people Spider-Man. But Reggie, I see you.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 39:35

All right. So yeah, I got a couple things. So this is not a movie for me that I would pay to go see again. However, I felt that if I paid for it once, that I got my money's worth. This was a solid movie. I thought they did a really good job. I think that the... and when you say really good job, that's so nebulous, so let me talk about the things that I that I liked particularly. I like the fact that they had that look at Peter Parker and Spider-Man, and that how is his life? How is he as a superhero? I love the fact that at the foundation is that love between him and MJ. Would they ever get back together? And I think that that is at the core of this film. So you get to see these, the, this- superhero movie more as a, a love story. It is. That's what it really is. This really is a love story. However, there were a couple of things in this movie which I can't talk about that were telegraphed, and I knew that two or three of these things were gonna happen. This was probably, to me, one of the weakest times in which they did not camouflage the, a couple of things that were gonna happen in this film well. And after, 150 million, no, no, after a billion dollars have been spent, I will come back and talk about, "See, I told you." But there are some things that they telegraphed there, and I don't think they did that that well. I also think that the- That the action, while it was good and I liked it, you could tell that this movie actually didn't need the action. I felt like they had to put it in there because that's what the comic f- book fans are looking for. But this movie was real more about Peter Parker the man, as opposed to Peter Parker the Spider-Man. And yes, there was that tug of war, but they didn't need all of the action that they had in this film, and I felt that a couple of times that it was kinda forced to say, "Okay, we gotta have a fight right here," like I said a little earlier about we gotta put a dance scene in here. I felt like there were a couple of things there. And then the final thing, and I've already spoken about it, is that usually Marvel does a very, I, I think a very good job of that end after credits scene. That scene tells you something. It gives you a hint about something to come. It's a surprise. It's a Easter egg, and I don't think that this... I know this one isn't, and then there's just no reason, in my opinion to stay for that. Just wait for it to come out on streaming and see the nothingness that happens after the credits. I like this. I like this movie. I gave it three reels out of four on my scale. So this is one that I would absolutely go see. But do I think that that it was a home run? I don't think it was a home run. I think they were getting close to having a a in the park home run. They were close. We made it to third base and he was halfway running home, but then ran back to third base because he didn't wanna get tagged out. But this worked for me. It worked for me for real. I, no hate at all. I like this movie and I recommend that people go check it out.

Kathia Woods 42:52

I, it's a 8 out of 10 for me. I would, I won't see, be seeing it again, and I also-

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 42:57

But we got the same score. And it- I just wanna tell you that we got the same score.

Kathia Woods 43:02

I think my I think we also gotta remember that this is a Sony picture and all the other movies are under Disney. So we still have that- duality going on. They retained the rights to Spider-Man, so I'm not sure that they could have had, which would, a lot of people thought maybe we'd g- get some glimpses into Doomsday, but they just dropped a trailer for that, so they didn't need to. So I think that is, we don't know if Spider-Man will be in Doomsday. We gotta wait and see. I think he's gonna spin his web over there 'cause he's been in previous ones, but I think that is one of the complicated things about this. But overall, and the bigger question is, are we gonna get another Spider-Man iteration out of Tom Holland and Zendaya? I hope so. Is this the last one, or do, do they have one more?

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 43:56

I hope so. I, I-

Kathia Woods 43:57

How old is Tom Holland? He's 30 or about to be 30. He's, he himself has said this has been taxing. And the other thing too is, I mean, you wanna leave on a high. Yeah, he's 30, my fellow Gemini. He's 30, and you wanna leave on a high. You wanna be the one, where people are still like, you wanna be 40 and limping out a- as Spider-Man. But I do think that,

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 44:22

We should at least get one more. That's all I'm gonna say to that. I- I,

Kathia Woods 44:25

yeah, but then again, when we do see, sometimes when we push our luck like this and you're like, yeah, Zendaya's 29. She'll be 30 in it later on this year too, so you're just like... I like how they mature them though. They give them adult

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 44:43

roles. I agree.

Kathia Woods 44:44

At some point we gotta grow up just a little bit.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 44:46

I agree. However, because this movie left some things unresolved, we have, in my opinion, we have to have one more i- installment with these two.

Kathia Woods 45:00

I think we are going to because the movie's going to get a lot of money. Having said that, I do want them to let Destin, direct it. I think he has a really good touch on being able to bring that humanity and realness and as well as keeping the, and the building world building of the superhero, which I think is a-

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 45:22

I like that

Kathia Woods 45:22

tough thing to do. You know, a lot of times your people are really good about doing a superhero, but you're like, w- but where's the story, beloved? And also we forgot Florence Pugh as Yelena. I love her as Yelena. I think she also gave us a much needed comic relief. I really love Thunderbolts partially, mainly because of her. I think she is hilarious as Yelena.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 45:47

I'm also glad that we got another look at Mark Ruffalo, so you know I'm I like that as well. Again, I think they did a good job and mathematically, no, we're not at the same score, but yours is higher than mine, and we are both recommending this film. Let's move on to our last thing, and the last thing that I kinda wanna throw out is you're talking about the box office, is that in 12 days, The Odyssey made over $700 million. In 12 days. That makes it the number four highest grossing movie for this year. For this year, it's already number four, and it's in 12 days. It's gonna be interesting to see Tom Holland at the end of this on Monday, at the top with Spider-Man- And- and number two with The Odyssey. And because Spider-Man is gonna kill it. But I don't see how The Odyssey Will not make over a billion dollars. It will make- I think it will

Reggie Ponder 46:46

make a

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 46:47

billion dollars it will make over a billion dollars. And what's interesting about The Odyssey is, believe it or not, there are people going to see this one twice, that- They

Kathia Woods 46:55

have gone to see it twice

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 46:56

That people are going to see this movie twice and it's, it, you might as well just say it's three hours. It's, yeah, it's two hours and 50 minutes, but there are people going out and see it twice. So Tom Holland is having, and Zendaya, 'cause she's in both of these films as well.

Kathia Woods 47:12

The- Tom Holland's kind of far. Zendaya will

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 47:13

have- I know. Of course. Of-

Kathia Woods 47:14

Zendaya will have her lick back with Dune.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 47:16

Of of course. However, she can still claim being in this film. Be- being in the, the, the top two films, and they might be the top two grossing films of the year because both of them are gonna do very, very well.

Kathia Woods 47:31

I think it will be, like, these two films, and then Dune will sneak in there somewhere because that will be the final part. Now, I tell people these are the type of movies that people want to see and love for the summertime, right? I don't think we need to have things that are always brain dead. Give the general public a little bit more, and I think especially now where people are very how can I say this? Are very strategic and intentional with the money that they spend on movies. I think with The Odyssey you have the Christopher Nolan effect. You have the fact that this is epic. This is why we go to the movies. This goes all the way back, whether it's Lawrence of Arabia, Ten Commandments. We want to be swept up in something. We wanna feel like we're on the boat. You know what I mean? We don't wanna be in the cave, though. That cave with the people, we don't wanna be there, but we want to feel these things. We want to feel like we are in this other world, and I think Christopher Nolan understands that. He still gives you that, David Lean epicness, where a lot of people say they do, but they don't. We go to the theater- Yeah and we're not. You know what? Those Nicole Sin- we come here to be swept away, and we're like, "I was not swept away. I was ready to be swept away, so I have to stop watching this." So I think that's what you're having, and I think this is a lesson to be learned. No, we don't need Christopher Nolan clones, but if you're going to swing for the fences and you can... I just saw Kevin Hart's new movie, right? My daughter and I saw it yesterday. The problem we have with a lot of people, I think this is the problem with The Rock. He tells you, he's very good at telling you that we're getting epic things, but we're not getting epic things.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 49:28

I think-

Kathia Woods 49:29

With Nolan, it's like, "I'm going to make this movie," and he doesn't really tell you. He gives you the basics, and then he's "Here it is." Yeah. I- And

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 49:40

that's what- I think this though- from our criteria for these movies

Kathia Woods 49:42

though I do.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 49:42

I think this, and we, and you and I have talked about this, is that there's room for you call it kiki, for these little kiki movies, and people want those too. Yeah, I'd say that. No- hold on. But what I was gonna say o- on the other ones, that good writing always trumps anything. So-

Kathia Woods 50:04

Thank you

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 50:04

what ha- what they did in writing The Odyssey, in adapting The Odyssey for the big screen, it is so clear. And that writing, it resonates. And it's the same thing with why you really, really like Spider-Man, is that there was good writing here. I do think they had some bumps in, in, in the film, but the writing was good and the story held together despite a few little blemishes here or there, is that the writing is important. I don't think that we are ever v- very rarely, you look at The Rock with what he did with the fighting. What was the fighting? Smash Mouth. Smash- Smash Mouth Smashmouth scene. I don't think we're... And, you know, then he did, what? The walk and whatever that, that, that is. I forgot the name of that one too. But I think that- Those guys, The Rock and Kevin, it's gonna be hard for them to break out of what people think that they should do. And when they break out of it, the what we do as film goers is we reject those things. We don't go to those things because we now have a mindset of what we want these people to be, and we reject it. I you're the music person, and you know this to be true, is that those music artists that try to change genre get so much flack for changing genre. And I don't understand it because we be like, "Oh, you're just doing the same thing. You're just doing the same thing." Then when I do something different you be like, "Oh no, that don't work." You, we gotta give some room for that as well. I'm not speak- but I think that Kevin and The Rock have a lane, and for the most part staying in that lane is working for them. So we'll see. I haven't seen the Kevin Hart movie.

Kathia Woods 51:53

I think my issue with them is, it's not that they make the type of movies that they make. They have their fan base, and I agree with you. I do say we do need some movies that are just a kiki. My issue with them is that they don't acknowledge that their movies are just kiki movies. They want to prete- They keep trying to tell us- Yeah that they're not kiki movies. That's like me trying to sell you a 300M as a Bentley. No, there's nothing wrong with the 300M, and that's a good car, but it's not a Bentley no matter what you try to

Reggie Ponder 52:26

say. I feel you. I

Kathia Woods 52:27

feel you. Yep. And that's the issue that I have when they're like, "This role allowed me to do..." No, it... Dude, you're not out here. Like, you're not like Joaquin Phoenix. We're not looking for that from you. Now I think the problem also is, I said this before, it's kinda like the Tom Cruise effect. Tom Cruise best acting is done when he doesn't drive the bus, when he is just the talent When he gets to be the co-this and all of this and all of that, it becomes a little hokey sometimes. But Tom Cruise the actor has always been able to act, but his best performances come when he sits on set and the director gets to have it. I'm really looking forward to Digger. I think this is gonna be one of those things where you have a director who's got the pedigree and box of all these things that can tell Tom Cruise, "This is how we gonna do it. I understand what you wanna do, but we gonna do this over here." I love to comedic- a comedic Tom, right? But I think that's what you need with The Rock. You need somebody, when he gets to choose all these other things, it's when it goes south. But he needs somebody to be like, "We're not doing that. I- this ain't Jumanji. We gonna do this because we're making a quality film." That's, I think, the problem. There is nobody there to help him edit. Like you c- you cannot tell me, Reggie. What's that movie where he made, but Santa Claus got kidnapped? Yeah. That was a disaster, right? Where you're like, "You mean to tell me nothing-

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 54:03

Hey, I had fun with that one, by the way. I had fun. I hear you. I- I had f- I had fun with that movie. You had me so mad. I had fun with that movie. But I don't see- But I still hear you. Hey, I gotta switch gears because I wanna get one more thing in before we get outta here,

Rant & Rave: Travis Scott

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 54:16

is that I want you, because you the music person, you the dance person, you the cultural person, you the movie person. Oh, that's it. I need you to speak about your boy Travis Scott. We have not talked about Travis. I, it's- Travis, I, I- just give me a little bit before we get up outta here.

Kathia Woods 54:36

I understand why he cast him. He did what he needed to do I wasn't looking for him to turn into whatever. But under Christopher Nolan, and I honestly think Christopher Nolan can make everybody look great, and I think he did what he needed to do. He understood the assignment. That's how I'm gonna put it.

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 54:57

I thought so too, and I was surprised that was him. I was like, Travis... it's so good when you got people who put you in the position that you need to be in though, is that they didn't ask him to do b- be this great thespian, you know? They said, "Here. Here is your part. You need to kill it right here." And I thought he did what he needed to do. I think he did understand the assignment. I just wanted to get that from you. Hey, where can people

Closing & Contacts

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 55:25

find you? C- and firstly, what is the latest article that you wrote, and where can people find you?

Kathia Woods 55:30

Oh my God. I got it now. Thank you. You can find me at the Philadelphia Tribune. You can also find me at cupofsoulshow.com. Reggie Ponder what's going on other... Yeah, my Spider-Man review is up on the Tomato and Reggie Ponder, where can people find you, sir?

Reggie Ponder, The Reel Critic 55:46

People can find me at indigo.com and reggieponder.com. My Spider-Man review is not up yet, because it doesn't go up until tomorrow. But it'll be at, on Indigo, and then I'll put it up on the Rotten Tomatoes. Look, this is the Reel Critics Network. That is Katia Woods. I am Reggie Ponder, and we will see you guys next time.

Kathia Woods 56:07

See you next time.