Did I Quit, or Did I Self-Graduate?

In this episode of Maxim EQ, Sam and I are joined by our longtime friend Aaron Lippert to explore the value of quitting—or as I sometimes prefer to label it, “self-graduating.”

We dig into the language around quitting, how word choice shapes perception, and share personal stories about crossroads in our life experiences around trying to figure out when it’s time to move on. Whether it’s leaving a job, a relationship, or a mindset, this conversation is about taking agency and recognizing growth over guilt when making a change. We hope it sparks some reflection—and maybe even a little inspiration.

Thanks.

Mike

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to Maxim eq, where we explore the common sensical through individual interpretation at a time when the profound is too often reduced to cheap memes and goofy bumper stickers, we head in the opposite direction, digging deeper to examine the commonalities and differences in our perceptions around a particular adage.

In each episode, we'll discuss our guest take on a thought provoking maxim. Designed to promote self-reflection and personal growth for us, but hopefully for you as well. In this episode, Mike and I are joined by our guest, Aaron Lippert, all the way from Paris, France, to discuss today's maxim. Did I quit or did I self-graduate?

This particular maxim also happens to be a Mike Baumer original and not a common adage. Let's see how this shakes out. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Now Maxim EQ with Sam Wahl and me, Mike [00:01:00] Baumer.

Mike: right? Even the back streets of Paris are charming.

Aaron: it's true.

Sam: want to quickly introduce for those people that are listening, if you don't 

Mike: I. 

Sam: already know who Aaron Lippert is, Uh, Aaron's our guest today. Uh, he is, other than being the spouse of the illustrious Kim Newsom, and father to Corey and Jake Lippert. he is the former front man, of , Columbia recording artist, uh, expanding man, hailing back to the nineties.

Uh, and then, 

Mike: Oh, 

Sam: uh, the short lived band God, 

boxer,

Mike: [00:02:00] God, 

Aaron: lowercase. G 

Sam: G yeah. but also now, uh, lives in 

Mike: yeah. 

Sam: than being a real, a veteran realtor. Uh, I think more importantly, uh, has, uh, a tenure as a, as a trainer and asuh, what do they call them in real estate? What, what, what you're, you're a coach, you're a real estate 

coach. 

Aaron: there's, there's both, you can be both a trainer and then, um, and that's more sort of classroom based education where you're, you're standing in front of a group of people and delivering, um, you know, course material, and then there's coaching, which is a whole different animal, um, where you're, usually one on one, but maybe in small groups.

And then, but that's much more about, um, helping people [00:03:00] to, uh, get past the roadblocks that they put in front of themselves, which is quite natural for all of us. 

Sam: And poignant to 

today's, Maxim. I believe that when given a list of choices you selected, did I quit or did I self graduate 

Aaron: This is true. I did. 

Sam: as our Maxim for Maxim EQ today? Then this is what we're going to unpack 

Mike: Okay. 

Sam: with our guest, Aaron Lippert.

Aaron: That's right. 

Mike: Yeah, before I ask Aaron a question, I do want to just say real quickly, it's nice to be on in a chat with two people likely to use the proper two syllable pronunciation of 

Aaron: Yes. 

Mike: Um, so did I quit or did I self graduate?

what drew you to choosing? Maxim over the, uh, I don't know, two, three or four other ones that [00:04:00] we probably put in front of 

Aaron: I chose the, the, did I quit did I self graduate? Um, because it's, I have, I think two relevant life experiences, that are directly related. I think it also is just at this particular phase of our lives, my life, you know, we're all sort of, of a, of a certain age where, you know, you, you, you gain perspective, um, and you start to.

Understand a little bit better about some of the experiences that you've had and looking back at them. And some of them even can be recent. And 1 of the 2 that I have is a, is a, is a semi recent experience as well. Um, and then, you know, I think it's just been resonating with me also. In terms of the, I don't know, the relationship between what you carry with you and what you give up.

And, and as we get older, [00:05:00] all of us experience loss, whether it's people that we lose, whether it's jobs that we lose, whether it's money that we lose, we, we all sort of become an aggregate of things that we have in one way or another left behind either by choice or by. Sheer just the way that the universe is, is, is sending us messages, you know?

So I think for all those reasons, this, that particular, um, uh, Maxim broke through. For me,

 So my, my first question to you, uh, and you may have already kind of started to answer this, but Going back to the text thread, when you were initially reacting to having chose this one, you were asking, you know, what, what, what does self graduate mean? know? And, and so we had a brief, text dialogue about that. and then we decided that we would save it for today because [00:06:00] ultimately that's what we're here for. So, uh, my question to you is what initially was your interpretation of the maxim? 

as a person who's a vocabulary nut, I just wanted to make sure I had the correct definition, you know, cause to me. Um, to like, graduate, gradual or graduate, graduated can be something that's done in an incremental fashion. All right, so when, when I read self graduate, I didn't understand if the emphasis was supposed to be okay, like, so you went through this very long drawn out sort of evolution of thought, and there was a gradual process.

And what did that look like? Or. Was it the, the, I'm graduating, like I'm moving on and I'm like closing the door on one chapter and open the door on another one. So, um, uh, I just wanted to make sure that I, I was approaching it from the right angle, 

Mike: Well, I'm not sure that we really answered the question, although we may [00:07:00] have. So where did you land between those two interpretations?

Aaron: second cause it is the, the more simple and, and, uh, clearest I think of those two. So I was complicating things, which I have a tendency to do. 

Sam: I would like to dive right in and, and just share that I resonate with you. a few minutes ago, you immediately kind of turned to discussing, the experience of loss and the, and the experience of grieving. And, for me, the word graduate also occurs. In my consciousness as a multi 

Aaron: Mm 

Sam: activation 

or 

Aaron: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm

Sam: much like our base, our shared base understanding of the, the stages of grief, uh, that are common in, in human behavior.

But like, I, I definitely resonate with that, that I feel like [00:08:00] graduating. Even, I think that for me, the quit 

Aaron: hmm. 

Sam: maybe even a, an initial step into graduating.

Aaron: Totally.

Sam: Does that 

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. 

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that, you know, it, it ties into the two stories that I'll alter the two life experience that I was thinking that I would share with you guys is our, our specific instances, but I think they fit into a bigger picture of what all of us as, as, as, you know, Human beings as we, as we become more mature, um, uh, we, we start to aggregate and, and become, um, as, and I think I was sharing with you guys, I've been reading, um, the new Nick cave book,uh, hope, faith, and, um, carnage, which is, An excellent read.

 and in my mind is sort of like the companion book to the [00:09:00] creative act by, uh, uh, what's his name? Rick Rubin. Thank you. Yeah. Like those two books are actually for me kind of like two sides of the same coin. So I'm, I'm, I'm appreciating it, but anyway, you know, his, the big, the big sort of takeaway from, from the, theUh, cave book is, is, is this idea that we all sort of become creatures of loss as we become older, because if you, if you commit to something, if you love something, eventually part of something is going to leave you in one way or another, and you have to sort of deal with that loss and then rebuild. You get to rebuild yourself into a different and most likely better version of, of yourself.

 which is, that's, that's pretty heavy. I, I appreciate that. 

Sam: perhaps you get to maybe even begin the unlearning. 

You know, we learned so much from, from the time that we're born through this middle age that you referenced earlier that we [00:10:00] all share in common. And, um, and then I think that in my. personal philosophy. I think that we begin to unlearn and simplify and return to 

Aaron: Mm-Hmm. .Yeah. 

Sam: losing parts of ourselves that at one point in time were employed to carry us or to defend us or to do play roles that were necessary during the battlefields of our 

Aaron: mm-Hmm?

Sam: And they just no longer have 

Aaron: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. 

Sam: So we We let 

them 

Aaron: Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Mike: Hey, I want to take this opportunity to ask you guys to go a little deeper on something because you seem to have it in common and it wasn't part of my initial, development of this quit or self graduate idea, right? Like, because for me, I was listening to some conversation about value in 

Aaron: Mm-Hmm. 

Mike: Right.

So it was [00:11:00] like quitting is a good thing. and I thought it was doing the subject matter kind of a disservice by using a word that has a negative connotation to it, or typically does when really what they were talking about was, you know, recognizing that some situation had delivered all the value that it was going to, or that it had, Reach the point of diminishing marginal returns and that it was time to go in another direction or do something else. And I kept yelling at the podcast to sub in a better word 

Aaron: Mm-Hmm. 

Mike: And that's, that's when I was like, why not self graduate? And so to me, it's like, it kind of felt like an either or, or a relabeling of something that's constructive, you know, with a more constructive moniker. but you guys, I feel like are grooving on this thing where quitting is a part of the sequence towards self graduation.

That self graduation is this, it kind of ties in both of your [00:12:00] interpretations, Aaron, I think, where you're. It's not necessarily an on off switch that it's a process and Sam has referenced a couple of times that he saw quitting as part of the process to self graduating where I was just originally just looking to re 

Aaron: Mm-Hmm.

Mike: So I would love to hear from either both of you how you don't feel like it's either or that you feel like they're both part of the process and maybe quitting is where it starts and self graduating is where it finishes. I don't know. But. You seem to have that in 

Aaron: Yeah, well, I think when, when I, when I think of this Maxim, you know, quitting, uh, implies a certain agency, right? Like you're proactively quitting something, but I don't necessarily feel like that the act of quitting has to be necessarily always arrives in that form. Like it, it, shows up at you as much as you show up at it, I think, in, in terms of, life in general.

[00:13:00] Um, And so when I think of quitting, it's, it's, the ending of something. Right. And, and I think. In my sort of exploration right now, you know, I, I look at things, uh, ending and loss and, what then turns around and becomes a, new opportunity as a result of that. Thing ending, um, and experiencing that loss and then turning that into something, a next step, a next phase in life, a next recreation of oneself, a next incarnation professionally, personally, right.

It becomes sort of that fertile ground for whatever you decide you're going to do with yourself next. Um, 

Sam: unpack 

that 

Aaron: Sure.

Sam: Share a 

personal, 

Aaron: I mean, 

Mike: yeah, like go through the 

Aaron: yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike: but it's just clearly 

Aaron: So, I mean, like the, the, the, this less sort of emotional and the more sort of practical example, which is [00:14:00] probably the shorter one. So I'll do that first. And it, and it, and it probably relates a little bit more directly, Mike, to, to the podcast that you were ineffectually screaming at, uh, was, it was a, was a, it was a business venture. Right. And so, um, uh, you know, and, and, and it, It was a perfect, a textbook example of what's called the, the, the sunk cost fallacy, right? Where you, you just invest in something to such an extent that you become, blind to the moment where it's right to step away from it, right?

And so you just keep doing what you're doing because you're, you're not seeing that the best thing to do in that moment is actually to to cut bait, as they say in fishing world, uh, and and bring the boat back home. Um, so I was an investor in a, franchise here in [00:15:00] Europe. So this has happened after I movedto, Paris.

Um, and I had the opportunity to put, Some money. It was like a ton of money, but it was some money. It was significant. Let's just put it that way, um, into, a real estate franchise in, in Belgium. It was the franchise that I had been working with for many, many years. So I had a high level of trust in it as a, As an organization as a, as a basis, you know, it wasn't something that I was unfamiliar with at all.

I had a lot of confidence in it because it works throughout the world. And why wouldn't it work there? Right? So, um, and my role initially was. purely as an investor. Like I was taking my money, I was going to have my money, go do some work for me and good. Like I'll go do my thing here in Paris and build a real estate, you know, brokerage.

Um, but it, it, it became clear, um, very quickly after that there, the, the people [00:16:00] who I was investing with needed help. And so I started to become more and more sort of active traveling from here to Brussels a bit more frequently. I was starting to give more training sessions to the leadership teams up there and, individual agents to try to make sure that this thing got off the ground properly.

And it was classic mission creep. I mean, literally just like, it became a little more and a little more and a little more, and eventually like, uh, it was, it became a full time thing. It was like what I was doing and not getting paid for it. You know, it was all just to, to save the initial investment. Uh, and, and.

Um, you know, my business partner had essentially the equivalent of a, of a Belgian nervous breakdown. It totally like disappeared. Like he just took off. And so I, me, [00:17:00] like, I'm like, A good three hours away from Belgium. I'm in another country and like, I'm supposed to be the guy, like keeping all of this afloat, like, uh, uh, what is a, a, a, a national franchise for Belgium and Luxembourg.

And 

Sam: you talking, so let me just, let me just, uh, make sure I'm understanding correctly. This was your, your 

hired managing broker. 

Aaron: no, he's the guy who, who, was the owner of the master franchise. 

Sam: Okay. And, 

Aaron: Yeah, and and the guy who was supposed to be like doing all the things right like yeah, 

Sam: Did he fully ghost, did he like literally ghost, 

on you 

Aaron: I towards the end Yeah, Yeah, yeah. unfortunately

Sam: oh my God, my God. 

Mike: so is it, is it just him or were there a team of people also, even if it 

were, even if it 

Aaron: No, it was just it was just him. That was that was part of the problem. Yeah. Yeah. 

Mike: him. Okay. 

[00:18:00] Yes. 

Aaron: who were supposed to have been hired by him Right and but there was no money to do the hiring and did so it was just a whole You Disaster. So anyway, at the end of it, um, you know, uh, ultimately it was just not something that was sustainable and it, and it, and it did end up collapsing. Um, and, um, when I look back on that experience.

There was a very clear moment, um, I would say a year before, maybe even 18 months beforehand, where I just should have said, um, I'm, I'm out. That's it. I'll just write it off. This is a loss. Um, and I would have at least, uh, gotten back those 18 months of dedicating my energy and my time to something else that would have had a more positive sort of results right here in my life, right.

Yeah. 

Sam: What, I mean, I think that the answer is [00:19:00] probably obvious, um, but I'd like to hear you say it though. Like what, what was the number one most profound lesson learned that you will, you will maybe never enact 

again in your life 

due to this experience? 

Aaron: Yeah, well, the first and foremost is to, is to actually do, uh, do, do a lot more. And I'm going to start, I'm going to be very careful about using profanity, but doing a 

Mike: yourself out, 

Aaron: more dude. Um, a great deal more due diligence, um, before. Even getting into the situation. So, you know, I, I think that the problem arrived at the point of, of acquisition as often does, um, uh, and beyond that, um, it's tough, man.

It's tricky because there were, there were genuine positive indicators. Like this was not some like, uh, complete detachment from reality. It's not like, you know, [00:20:00] um, You know, we had managed to, to bring in, like, the number one REMAX agency in Luxembourg, like, they joined us. And, you know, we had two offices open in Belgium at one point. Uh, so, so, for a period of time, it, there, there were these sort of, like, I'm not going to say false indicators, but they were, they were enough to give me the ability to justify continuing. Do you know what I mean? And so, yeah, 

Mike: course, there was a, there was a combination of indicators. It wasn't all bad in hindsight. There's no 

way you would, you would. 

Aaron: right.

Sam: there a point in time though? looking back on that in retrospect, um, are you able to, kind of seize a memory of a day or a time when you realized that higher self was trying to guide you, to make a decision, to cut and run, or to, or to, Make a drastic change. And you, and you, you perhaps negotiated listening to that higher self.

Do you [00:21:00] 

Aaron: Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. Um,

Sam: Um, one of them was, um, an additional. Uh, uh, investment, a smaller one, but still an additional investment in one of the offices in order to keep it running, uh, until it could become profitable again. Um, and that that was a moment where, in hindsight, that was the moment to say, you know what, this is enough.

Aaron: I'm going to keep this amount of money. And, and even though we just brought in this other, you know, partner in everything's looking good, you know, this has, has an expiration date on it. And it's not that far out. And, and I should really just say, this is, this is the moment to pull the rip cord. 

Mike: Yeah. And you mentioned earlier, you, you referenced like an 18 month period [00:22:00] Was that 

the moment 18 

Aaron: Yeah.

Mike: to the slide?

Okay. That was the thing. Okay. 

Sam: what would you call, I mean, if you were, if you're identifying experience in your life, a moment of self graduation, how would you describe, or what would you identify as, you know, what did you matriculate to? Where are you now? 

Hmm. 

Aaron: So I was able to pivot from that, um, uh, back towards my own brand. And the thing that I had come here to do in the beginning, which was LaRoche group, and so that had atrophied. For two years. And so I had to basically apply the paddles to it and go 

Sam: Mm hmm. 

Aaron: and resuscitate that, um, and rebuild the pipeline of business there.

And so essentially it got me entirely refocused on, on that. Um, uh, so [00:23:00] that's, that, that would definitely be to what I ended up graduating to. Yeah. 

Mike: two economics terms have come up actually three, I guess, if you count, I think I said past the point of diminishing marginal returns earlier, um, you referenced sunken cost and in, in different terms, you referenced opportunity costs, right? Like the more the in layman's terms, sunken costs is throwing good money after bad, right?

So the longer that that additional 18 months, just. Let's say you said where it was time 

Aaron: Yeah. 

Mike: that could have been spent towards rebuilding your own brand, 

et cetera, et cetera. That's the opportunity cost, right? 

Aaron: And, and by the way, that 18 month period was the all time record best year of sales in Paris? 

Mike: oh shit. 

Aaron: Missed it, missed the whole thing.

Mike: uh, damn. 

Aaron: 

Mike: that's where the question was going.

Yeah. It was going to be like, did you feel like you could get back some of that time through expedited, you know, like in other words, the 18 months of opportunity [00:24:00] costs doesn't necessarily have to be a full 18 months, right?

Cause maybe you learned something from that experience that then expedited the thing that you pivoted to, et cetera, et cetera. But to this point, sorry, I don't want to harp on a, on something too negative. There was something environmental and circumstantial that had nothing to do with you that was happening that if 

you 

had made that pivot, you would have

been able to capitalize 

Aaron: a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 

totally.

Mike: know what I mean?

There's something 

else outside of your control. 

That 

Aaron: Well, that's the, thing. And like,

look at the, the, the, launch date for this franchise that ended up going under was, uh, October of 2019. 

Sam: yeah, 

Aaron: we all know what happened in March, right? Like, so the, so there's one example of like, you're sort of, you know, Life universe showing up with some bizarre curveball.

So we have a, you know, pandemic and all the, you know, everything had to shut down during that. And then on the flip side, yes, the opportunity cost of the period of time that I was [00:25:00] not engaged in something that could most likely have been much more. Profitable for me as a business person and dedicating my time instead to this, um, you know, business that was clearly failing.

And yeah, 

Mike: Yeah, but I'm sure the other two people in this conversation are I'm a big as much as it can hurt. Sometimes I think we're all believers that every experience has value, right? And so I suppose going forward you already referenced you know, Maybe a different approach to due diligence in the future So I guess the question is what else came from that experience.

Do you feel like you're already benefiting from? Now and into the 

Aaron: I think it's an, it's certainly just an awareness of, of the need to slow down in those, Moments. Um, 

Mike: a

Aaron: something that my therapist brought to my attention. Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I have, uh, you know, impulsively, it's not maybe the [00:26:00] word I would use, but I do have a tendency to, to get into action quickly.

I think that's something that I've, I've learned over time about myself and sometimes in a really good way. Um, I definitely am the kind of person who just kind of like likes to get stuff done. Um, And sometimes that manifests itself in a way that is kind of leapfrogs at some of the, you know, analytic and all right, let's sit down and just take the time to really look under the hood under this thing and make sure that everything is the way that it seems.

Um, so I think I've learned certainly that's, that's the big, big lesson out of this one is, is that I've, I've, I have in all of the things that I have done since then, I have that. Sort of, uh, lesson that I I'm carrying with me now. Yeah. 

Mike: I'd like to hop in with some secondhand therapy. That's, that's in sync with that, I think. so I go through a similar process, not so much. [00:27:00] Um. Impulsive or anything like that. I've always been really deliberative, right? But it was the thing that I heard in that reminded me of learning how to harness some of that stuff when it's beneficial and mute it or keep it at bay when it's beneficial and strike the balance between those two things. And, the input that I got from my therapist along those lines was I was sharing with him and I've, I think I've shared this, this anecdote with Sam already once where I was like, I'm walking my dog and walking Ringo one morning. I love my neighborhood. I love my neighbors. You know, I find myself in a stop and chat with. Um, one of my neighbors who's a retired economics professor. So he's got all the time in the world, you know, and he loves to talk to me about the Beatles and this, that, and the other things. So we're having this conversation and a little alarm went off in my head that it was like, I don't know, eight 12 or something.

Right. And I was like, I got to get to work. You know, like I'm, I'm, know, I need to be at my [00:28:00] desk by eight o'clock or whatever you organize. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. There is nothing that I could be doing right now that's more important than having this conversation with my neighbor. Right. You know, work will be there when I get there. Um, if I need to work an extra seven minutes at the end of the day to make up for it, I can do that. You know, I'm going to, this, this is the most important thing I could be doing right now. And I was sharing that with my therapist and I asked him, he's like, that's great. You know, that's good. The, you know, um, you recognize that you took agency of like your decision to stay there.

And I was like, okay, cool. I was like, but is the next. is the next step in that progression to not even have the alarm go off in the first place so that I'm not distracted by something that's not as important. He's like, no, I'm not saying he's right. Right. But this is what I was thinking of. He says, still good for you. The fact that you have that alarm is still good, and it will serve you well in other situations, If you're in the grocery store and you need to get out of there in two minutes, [00:29:00] part of that is going to help you navigate, you know, and figure out which line is going to get you out of there faster, that kind of thing.

So there are those personality traits that, will benefit you in some situations. And in this particular case, it was fine that it popped up as long as you were, you know, self aware enough to put it in its place 

Aaron: Mm. mm-Hmm. .mm-Hmm. .

Mike: for you at that time. Right. Um, and so I just wanted to share that because I feel like I'm hearing, know, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Right? Like that, um, being being aware of those two things can benefit you relative to 

Aaron: on. 

Mike: of the 

situation. 

Sam: you know, Aaron, you, you said something earlier about, um, first of all, I don't think that tools of efficiency are inherently bad.

I agree with your therapist. I think that, I think that when we come to those alarms, uh, that we, that we, uh, invite or allow, or even install into [00:30:00] our, our, daily processing, I think that, you know, it indicates that it's time to make a choice. That's all it indicates. Uh, it doesn't mean that there's something to immediately adhere to. 

It means it's 

time to 

be 

thoughtful. Uh, and I think 

Aaron: Hmm. 

Sam: good things. But, um, Aaron said, it just shows up at You 

You said that 

earlier, that came out of your mouth. I

don't even remember the

Aaron: Mm mm-Hmm.

Sam: it, you 

Aaron: Hmm.

Sam: I do think that a lot of things, you know, some people they think that everything happens for a reason I don't necessarily, I don't believe that.

I don't even believe the word belief, but anyways, I digress. Um, things do, show up at you, but when, when they when they do, I'm a person who's starting to adopt the idea that there, bear with me, that there are versions of your Earth occurring simultaneously [00:31:00] and, you know, depending on your present vibrational level and the level of your experience, you know, you'll make a choice based on your preferences your informed preferences. Which experience you're going to have, know, uh, I don't think that it's, it's always making a choice of one or the other stop or continue. I don't think it's as simple as that. 

Aaron: that

was me. I'm so sorry. 

Mike: Hey, not bad. Not bad. 48 minutes without 

Aaron: Fuck. 

Mike: I think 

I'd still consider that a 

Aaron: Despite the, the, the pre-game warning I have, I have failed

Mike: Imagine how many 

Aaron: Oh, 

Mike: without the pregame warning. That's the 

Sam: that that I was 

beginning to ramble. So, 

 [00:32:00] 

Sam: ask Aaron to, uh, share regarding today's Maxim, something 

that's a little 

 less business 

Aaron: yeah. Right. And, and so the, the, the first story was, was, as I said, I think was more sort of business related, you know, life lesson, the kind of things that you can probably read in a lot of business books. And so it wasn't necessarily as, Existential in nature. other question revolves around, you know, art life as an artist.

Um, and, you know, how one constructs one's life with the tension between being an artist and then also, you know, Needing to, to earn a living in this world. And then the things that sort [00:33:00] of can happen to you in the course of trying to build a life as a creative person that can take you away from that.

And so is the word quitting applicable in those situations? Um, does one self graduate into something else? What does that look like? And, you know, I think. You guys are both obviously very familiar with, with the story of, of, uh, my My bit in the entertainment industry. All 

right? 

My time up river. and and you know how how life showed up in in that Uh, experience for me and that's, you know, 

that remains I think one of the 

formative, um, traumas, uh, of, of my adult life.

And it managed to, to achieve what in, in, you know, my mind was the, the, [00:34:00] the end. Not the, end, but it was certainly like the beginning of where we needed to get to, which was that we signed a major label record deal.

Right. And so that had for me sort of like the,

 the, validation of this idea that this band that I was in this group of brothers that I had come along with, you know, from the age I was 17 until I was 25. You know, most of them were friends from home in Long Island. Like I've known these people forever, This was meant to be, there were all these positive signs, right? Like we're getting the universe is sort of reciprocating to all of this energy that we're putting into creating this music and recording it and going on tour and, and just. You know, that was our life then. So when the industry sort of imploded or, uh, you know, was knocked off its feet by file sharing, um, and one of the biggest mergers in the [00:35:00] industry, um, uh, at the time was, uh, happened in 1998, right as we were finishing our second album, um, uh, when Seagram's Universal bought up all of the labels on the West Coast.

Of which our was one, we were on Polydor. Um, and our record that we had worked for, I'd say, you know, certainly a year or two write, um, and then a good three months to record, uh, was suddenly shelved. And then after a six month period of waiting, um, we were told that it was never gonna be released. And by the way, we didn't own it.

And so you can't have it and see you later. Right. So that's the sort of the, the, the catalyst that then. Led to the band dissolving. And so the first major loss, which is of course, the thing that was most important was that that series, that whole world of relationships suddenly gets severed, right? Uh, and, and for, [00:36:00] you know, all of us on this call, the three of us have all played in bands.

Like we understand what that relationship is like, and it's, it's really unlike. Any other, right? It's a, it's a, it's a shared sense of purpose. It's not military in that sense, but there is that same sort of esprit de corps where you have a mission, you're all working on this thing together and you're in confined spaces 

and you smell bad and you're all, you know, eating, uh, turkey deli meat out of a, of a igloo cooler and a, in a extension van, you know, food.

Through like the middle of nowhere in Tennessee, trying to go play clubs and try to build a following. Right. So, um, having to lose that was like just absolutely devastating for me.

at that point, you know, once the Seagram's thing happened, the merger, the record was shelved, you don't own it, et cetera. You know, you equated that to the end of the band or the end of that chapter. I think that's where you're going. and [00:37:00] it's multiple minds. Was there ever, um, was there disagreement amongst the members of the band about what to do next? I mean, were there, was there a faction that wanted to carry on that, you know, maybe label or no label was kind of irrelevant and, or was it, did it feel obvious to everyone involved that maybe this was the last blow 

that's a, that's a, good question. And I think there was certainly the sense that having been dropped once already by Columbia, and now this thing happened on poly door. 

Mike: Mm hmm. 

Aaron: That in a sense, expanding man was damaged goods and, and, you know, from an industry standpoint, I'm not talking about the music, obviously, but just strictly from your average record executives perspective, like kind of a loss cause. 

Mike: Right. You didn't need your third strike to be told by the, All right. 

that right.

done. Right. 

Sam: Well, However, there were there, 

Aaron: there were certainly, um, I think there was a [00:38:00] difference of opinion in terms of whether or not to continue. Um, you know, I think so that was not a unanimous, like, all right, we're all in agreement. Let's all, you know, just throw in the towel. Um, so I think that was, um, more complicated, I'd say, than, than just everybody collectively saying, all right, let's just move on to other things. So, 

Mike: Was there a possibility of like multiple different potential incarnations like three people go on to form this and two people go to do that or we're going to stick together but it's we're going to take a little bit of a turn and and leave expanding man behind but start this new chapter that's something else but we're going to still kind of be 

involved in each 

Aaron: yeah, that was, that was, I mean, that was essentially the, the, the genesis of, of Loveless was, was that point, you know, uh, Pete, uh, Armada and Dave Wanamaker were intent on, on continuing to do music [00:39:00] together. And they went and they started, uh, Loveless with Jen Trinan and Pulche 

Mike: you are all, you're lots of things. Right. And I think we would probably all agree that two of the most important of them are spouse and 

A

parent. And so, um, the music experience, that journey, and how.

that influenced your approach to parenthood. 

Sam: now that you have, from what I understand, Corey is 

Aaron: Mm hmm. 

Mike: degree, right? I mean, I 

Mm hmm. or, or an ambition SoHow has your experience being directly involved in that process and that sequence of events 

affected and influenced, you know, your 

Aaron: guidance as a parent, you are, but I mean, you're very unique to be both a parent and a hmm. 

Mike: dare 

Aaron: Mm hmm. [00:40:00] Mm hmm.

Mike: or

Aaron: Right. Right. 

Mike: know, formerly 

Aaron: Um, that's an awesome question. Um, you know, I, I think, uh, when I look at, um, my children and I think of my two kids. Mm hmm. I think Corey will most likely be the one who, who sticks with music as, as a career path. They both are talented in and of their own rights as performers.

You know, uh, Jake is a guitarist and a singer as well. Um, uh, I think when I look at Corey, um, my approach to helping them has been or to parenting them, I suppose, is the word I still carry with me the idea that if you're going to go do that, like, you really got to kind of go all in, like, cause I went when I.

So I did go to high school. I did have a college [00:41:00] degree, but I immediately went to Boston like the day I graduated and started writing with Expanding Man. That was the sort of the next phase of my life began then. And I, I didn't have another

job other than what I needed to do to make enough money to cover my rent and food.

Um, because the primary focus was the, you know, four nights out of the week that I was spending in a rehearsal room in Somerville with my band. Working through new material, rehearsing it, getting ready for shows and doing the rest of it. So that, that was the prime directive and everything else was just to support that thing.

And there was no plan B. And so, you know, my wife and I get into this conversation, uh, every once in a while. Like, is that the right approach, right? And now we're getting sort of off topic onto a whole different Maxim, but like, Yeah. Right. Hmm. 

Mike: actually, because I'm glad you brought Kim into [00:42:00] this because you are in this as a partnership and you know, and so. I'm glad you brought that in because I 

Aaron: Right, right, Right, 

Mike: this on your own. So it's not solely your perspective. That's that's managing 

Aaron: Yeah. Um,

Mike: kids.

Aaron: I think and so what Corey is doing is is a bit, um, different. Maybe isn't the right word, but it's not it. Corey's focus is in in engineering and sound engineering. And so, you know, really does depend on what aspect of that Corey ends up focusing on. Because if they end up being a mix engineer, obviously the artistic influence that a mix engineer has on a recording is massive, right?

And it's almost like a mix engineer becomes a 5th, 6th, 7th member of the band. Um, you know, look at Steve Lillywhite and, you know, whoever else, you know, as examples of that. 

Mike: Right. So it isn't necessarily 

Aaron: Right, 

right, right. [00:43:00] Um, so, uh, you know, there may be less of of that sort of, uh, you know, burn the boats when you land on the beach, kind of an approach when when you're looking at a career path in in the. The production end of things. I don't know, but again, like that wasn't my path. So I'm relying on the people that I know who've kind of gone down that road to advise Corey. Right.

Mike: there are a number of avenues Where the creativity and music is like the foundation of it, but it doesn't necessarily all point in the direction of performance as 

Sam: So I'd 

Mike: to viability, right? 

Sam: in, kind of in honor of Mike's original question, actually, but like, you know, can you, for the sake of this, particular episode and this Maxim, uh, can you, share maybe Aaron, a particular actionable, uh, item that you find yourself, uh, immersed in, uh, with regard to parenting that, that, that you would say [00:44:00] is in direct correlation to her direct, you know, uh, consequenceof this particular type of self graduation, uh, or one of the stories that you've experienced in the past or shared with us so far 

today. 

Aaron: Well, I mean that my both of my kids know almost all of the aspects of what went down with my sort of transition from, uh, member in a band to, you know, real estate to back into music. So they've kind of seen certainly in their own lives that that progression. And. There was, um, there was a moment where I think it was in one of the, the sort of the darkest place post, you know, expanding man breakup.

Um, I was tending bar and this woman came in, she was a semi regular, um, and it was a slow part of the evening. And, and I related some parts of the [00:45:00] story to this person and she was older than I am certainly, uh, maybe not by much, but enough. And, you know, she kind of stopped at the end of it. And she just said, you know, life is, long enough for you to have, more than one dream.

Uh, and that it's, it's not the end of everything. Right. Cause in that moment, like it was so dark and so like the end of. Of so much that I couldn't even see the pathway out, um, and I, I've carried that with me and I think, you know, I try to relay that to both of my kids that, you know, they're, they're going to be moments on the subject of this Maxim where, where you're going to fall down, you're going to have that moment where, where, Either you quit or life quits at you, as I said, I'm going to quit at you. Um, and, and that you, those are the moments where, where you, in a sense,dematerialize in a little [00:46:00] bit, like you, you, you, are deconstructed, whether it's. Cause you're purposefully doing it and you're like, I'm going to push this piece of me away because it's not good for me.

Or it's that life comes along and says, I'm going to take that piece from you even though it is good for you and you got to deal with it. Um, and that ultimately, like you get to, yourself. And every time you do that, 

Sam: hmm. 

Aaron: You, you become ultimately a better or more complete or truer version of who you are.

And maybe, you know, Sam in, in your world that like multidimensional kind of options are, are open to, to us at every one of these sort of turnstiles. And knowing all of that at 54 years old now, three, right. Um, I still, you know, I'll go out and I'll see a band, like not a surf, right. Who are still. Still at it and who are making [00:47:00] amazingly great and challenging music and they have a career and they still have a career And there's always that little tiny voice in the back of my head. That's still going, well, what if 

like, right. 

Sam: this woman in the bar, man, 

Mike: There's enough time for more than one dream. 

Aaron: Yeah, 

Mike: did you get her number?

So we should have her on 

the show. I think she

Aaron: I know. I should have kept track of her. 

Mike: a good guest. 

Sam: it probably would have been against your constitution at the 

time to be taking women's

Aaron: True. Also true. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: want to 

Mike: on this. 

Sam: one final remark before we do end

this and, and just. A, just extend 

Mike: That's great.

Uh,

anyway.

Sam: I love you, guys like 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: of you. Not that our audience needs to know that, but, you know, I don't mind being transparent with that. I really do just, I just adore you, Aaron Lippert.

I always have. I think that You're one of the most beautiful people I've ever known. You're so, you're so generous with your heart and You're so, articulate. And [00:48:00] I find your friendship to be so valuable for those reasons and many others.

Mike: ha. 

Sam: grateful that you decided to make time for this.

Aaron: No, man. Um, I am, I am grateful and I'm, my heart is full. Thank you for those words. That's really, really. 

Quite touching. 

Mike: I love it. I love it. and I think we might have shared, this with you earlier. We didn't even talk about it. We're just like, I have an idea of who. would be great to have as a first guest. 

And Sam said, me too. And I said, all right, 

uh, you first or both at the same time. 

And I think we both at the same time to Aaron Lippert. 

So it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, 

Sam: Lippert. yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. So thank you.

Sam: also, and also I want to say, and I mentioned, I'm going to mention this so that it's witnessed by anyone 

listening to this podcast, 

recording that damn well should have been picked up by a label and released God boxer, uh, is available on Apple music.

Mike: Oh, sweet. 

Sam: it has recently become 

like one of my top five played

records on my playlist on apple [00:49:00] music. And I'm obsessed with it. I feel like 

Aaron: Right on. 

Sam: record and every song is a single and every, and I also feel Like that style, it is that 30 year cycle of like the rejuvenation 

of, of particular stylings.

It's relevant again. Like you could release

that today and I think it would be 

a hit, you know? 

Aaron: Yeah, it was definitely like, Power, power pop ish. 

Sam: everybody go to Apple Music and buy God Boxer. 

Yeah. Who knows?

Next thing you

today. 

Aaron: the best. Sam

Mike: supervisor, who's our age is going to pit is going to pick that up and it's going to be in the Next 

like two

Sam: He's gonna be 

Mike: Uh, 

Aaron: Yeah. 

of Hey, it's Sam and Mike, and we appreciate you coming on this journey with us today. We hope that if you enjoyed it, you'll tell a friend, or better yet, share a link to this podcast and let your community know directly how it impacted you. That would really help us reach [00:50:00] more listeners just like yourself.

Thanks again for listening today. Feel free to email us at info@maximeqpodcast.com and share some favorite maxims, adages cliches that maybe we should consider for future episodes or perhaps just leave a kind message, maybe some feedback. Till next time, make it a great day.