Perfect is a Fault, and Fault Lines Change

In this episode, Sam and I are joined by musician and certified social worker John Deaderick to delve into a powerful lyric from the R.E.M. song “I Believe”: “Perfect is a fault, and fault lines change.” Using this as our launching point, we dive into the nature of perfection and perfectionism, and explore how embracing flexibility can transform our relationships, creativity, and personal well-being

John shares both personal stories and professional insights, revealing how our notions of “perfect” often change and evolve over time. Along the way, we discuss cognitive flexibility, societal expectations, and mindfulness, weaving together reflection, lived experience, and practical advice you can bring into your daily life.

Sam and I really appreciated the wisdom and vibe that John brought to this conversation, and we hope you enjoy it as much as we did.

Thanks for listening,
Mike

Transcript

 Mike: We're recording, Sam.

Sam: Uh, look at that.

Mike: Episode four, baby. Yeah.

Sam: and we have a juicy Maxim picked today. 

Mike: it's our first cover, I think. Right.

Sam: The

Mike: So, um, you know, John, obviously.

Sam: tell our listeners what you

Mike: yeah, yeah. Okay. So, and, fitting too, our guest is quite a talented musician

So it's pulled from an REM song, off a record called life's rich pageant, which is probably one of my two favorite REM, uh, albums. And this is one of my top five REM songs called I believe, but I didn't know until this [00:02:00] morning. that the title for the record that that song is on, Life's Rich Pageant, the band pulled it from a Pink Panther movie.

It's a line that, that, is it Inspector Clouseau? Is that what he was? Okay. Inspector Clouseau says like he falls out of a car or something and the guy's like, are you all right? And he says, uh, oh, it's all just part of Life's Rich Pageant. so the coincidence in this is, is what I read was that the band liked the phrase, 

because they would say it or reference it every time something was going wrong in the studio.

Sam: I love it.

Mike: Every time something went, went awry or just be like, well, that's just part of life's rich pageant. 

Sam: Sure.

Mike: so John, so who are we going to be discussing it with our guests? it's John Dedrick, and I've known John, it appears that we've known each other going on 25 or maybe even a little over 25 years.

Um, I believe that you guys have. Crossed paths at least once or twice when you lived in Nashville, if I'm not mistaken.

Sam: You know, I was taking inventory [00:03:00] of number of friends in common, call it colleagues in common and unawares paths crossing. and it's, it's quite numerous and, uh, it'll be really neat to have my first kind of intentional or conversation with John, all that in mind.

Mike: Yeah, one degree of John Dedrick, probably. 

Yeah.

Sam: has joined

us. John Detrick. Welcome to Maxim EQ.

John: Thank you very much. It's good to be here.

Mike: I haven't seen you.

in a while. 

John: It's been, yeah, I was thinking about that. It's been a few years, I think. 

Mike: Yeah.

I thought it would be interesting to ask you if you remember how the two of us met. met 

John: Oh, yeah. I think I do. 

Mike: either by the way, neither an

interview nor an 

John: yeah. I appreciate it. I think vividly, I was telling my wife about this. My recollection.

Sam: I was, uh, on the road, I was on the road with an artist and, They weren't working a lot, [00:04:00] and so I took a part time job at a music store. And, um, I was not invested in that necessarily. it was clearly a means to an end, but I thought while I was there, I should probably learn about some stuff

John: And I also knew, like, I wanted to learn about software recording. So I thought, well, I'm going to just call some manufacturers

and I called Motu and I thought, well, I'm going to learn how to try to use this software and see if they'll actually give me one, send me one so I can learn how to use it.

And, I, I don't know who I spoke to first, but somehow I got to Mike and, um, introduced myself and said, here's who I am and this is what I'm doing. He said, well, I think he said, tell me about yourself. Who you, who you playing with? What are you doing?

and in talking, you knew the drummer of the band that I was playing with. And so, um,

Sam: you're, you're referring to Billy Beard. 

John: Yes, yes, absolutely. And so I, you know, I was working with Billy and Mike said, Oh, well, yeah. So I, you know, essentially cut to what's your address. And so,[00:05:00]

Mike: Okay. 

John: but, but, you know, but there's much more to it than that, but, and then we just stayed kind of friendly.

I would call you from time to time And so, but then we just kind of became friends over the years

Mike: Cool. before you hopped on, we did acknowledge that the Maxim or at least the twist on a Maxim, that you chose actually qualifies as kind of a cover, if you will, 

John: Okay. 

Mike: and, and pulled from a song

John: Right. 

Mike: I think it's a bi

apropos that that's what we're

talking about

John: Oh, sure. 

Mike: know, three musicians to varying degrees of

success. why don't you tell us what phrase you chose to get 

John: Oh, 

Mike: us this

John: well, 

Mike: morning?

John: I need to find it. Um, and I'm going to, I'm going to have to paraphrase it, if I don't. 

perfect is a fault and fault lines change

Mike: Indeed. 

John: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah

John: And, that's the end of it or is it also,

I couldn't remember if it also

Mike: Well, for, 

John: the next,

Mike: it relates to,um, isolating the phrase that, spins around in my [00:06:00] head from time to time,

John: uh, 

Mike: So obviously there's a line that precedes it and a line that comes after it. But, the phrase is yeah, perfect is a fault and fault lines change. 

John: yeah.

Mike you, you know, what drew you to that one?

John: I think because it, um, it represents a change in general and to me it, it like perfect is a fault. And even if I just took that line aside, but in fault lines change over time, I, I feel like, I think about it's, it's interesting. Cause I even think about this in the context of music. thinking that, um, things need to be perfect or what my idea of perfect is, or even ideal is.

And then when I thought about the second half of the phrase that fault lines change over time, like my preferences change and what I thought was perfect or what I thought was important over time, uh, is perhaps no longer. And that, and um, kind of like chasing perfection, um, It's not futile. I mean, if you're, if you're aiming towards what you, you know, what your ideal is, or if, if that's kind of value [00:07:00] based and it, you know, um, then you might be looking for some kind of, uh, perfection.

And for whatever, you know, reason there might be a need for things to be perfect. And, you know, there's a pathology to that. And we could speak for a long time about why someone might decide or need to be things to be perfect. However,

over time, it's the goalposts kind of move like, Oh, I used to think that this was important

Now I think that this is important. And I thought about that in the context of music, um, where I think, as a young musician or a young, you know, maybe any, anyone who, is involved in the arts or perhaps anything, um, that there's a type of say music for me personally, I would have thought of when I was in my late teens, early twenties and thought, Oh, this is perfect music.

And this is great. Listen, how precise and tight that is. And, um, and then, you know, several years later, um, I, maybe This is now perfect. [00:08:00] That, that I used to think that that was perfect. And now this is, this is perfect. Um, so to me it was kind of about my, almost like my taste changing over time. as you perhaps, mature, hope, knock on wood, and, and gain new, um, insight into who you are and what's important to you.

Yeah. 

Mike: you you recognize that in yourself? actually, I shouldn't even make that assumption, So you're reflecting now with, with that phrase in front of you, 

John: Yes.

Mike: at that time, let's say as you,

the definition changed or the goalposts changed, as you put it, as your taste changed, I actually listened to a podcast this morning and it was, this. Neurologist or something. And he said, you know, you never walk in the same in the

Sam: as you put

Mike: same river twice or something, right? 

John: Yeah, 

Mike: The river said that kind of 

John: right. 

Mike: Were you aware of that as it was happening? Or is this something that you only kind of identify?

Upon reflection 

John: Yeah, probably [00:09:00] just, yeah, I guess. I think about it again musically and what I used to think was really important became no longer as important. And that came from experiencing life and working with other people and seeing how other people were, um, making music. And At least being in an environment where there were some other people that, that were just looking at the whole thing very differently than I had been.

And the things that I thought that mattered, um, almost clearly did not matter at the, in the end. So, I think hypothetically for, for, for anyone who like makes music, you might think that everything needs to be isolated and that it needs to be soundproof, uh, and there should be no quote unquote bleed.

uh, not even quote unquote. I don't know why I said that there should be no bleed. Uh, 

Mike: quote unquote. 

John: and so, uh, working with people who, we say, okay, we're going to, let's do a take with the band and as long as the vocalist gets a good take, that's really, what's going to [00:10:00] matter the most, because that's what we're here to support is the songwriter and the good take.

So that meant if my, you know, part was not again, perfect. that's what may end up being on the record. and so they may, they, the producer, the artist may say, well, if you know, maybe I can hear some whatever to varying degrees, some timing issues, perhaps, even if maybe a bad note, I don't know, but that didn't matter as much as this kind of really good, say vocal performance by the singer.

And so it didn't, that also didn't need to be perfect, but Then it just kind of, I don't know, kind of, I don't know, it becomes perfect? I don't know, or it becomes at least valuable, not perfect. I think that's the word.

Sam: paradigms for a moment. I find it interesting, you know, the word fault used as a verb, to criticize for inadequacy, a flaw, 

John: Uh huh. 

Sam: um, you know,[00:11:00] 

used in a sentence with perfect, there's a paradox there,

John: Yeah. 

Sam: Uh, and,I think that, um, I find fault with the construct of perfection,

Mike: right?

John: Sure. 

Sam: and that's, that's the first thing

that I, that came into my head when I, when I read this maxim was like, well, You know, I could turn that backwards and say, I find actual fault in idea or construct of perfection.

John: Mm hmm. 

Sam: witnessed or, embodied a positive outcome seeking perfection ever. 

John: Uh, huh.

Sam: Uh, the pursuit of perfection, I think

is akin to narcissism, akin to the residual, uh, of trauma of conditional love, perhaps by a child growing up. 

John: Mm hmm. 

Sam: a, it is, it, it implies so many things,[00:12:00] 

but I believe that the pursuit of perfection is inherently 

ill. 

John: uh, huh. I see. Mm hmm.

Sam: and, so that's the first place my mind went when I was contemplating this, 

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: this Maxim, 

John: Yeah. 

Sam: you know, uh,

John: You know, I think the way I would What I would challenge you to consider perhaps is like, think about things that, benefit from actually being perfect.

Sam: okay. 

John: And so I would think architecture, 

Sam: oh, 

John: the perfect, you know, measurements, exact, precise measurements, in, in some areas, I think it's all contextual at this point.

You know, in the context of art perfection, not necessary uh, do I want my bridge to be perfectly built? Yes. 

Sam: yeah. 

John: do I want the airplane to be working perfectly? I really do. Um, I want my meat to be cooked

perfectly well, not well done, but I wanted to not be raw, so I think [00:13:00] contextual about this, this concept of, I guess, per perfection.

So I think to your point though, Sam, yes, there are some other, some things that where that can be

har harmful.

Mike: So when you're saying or is like what's the goal of what you're working on? Right. So if the goal of the plane is to not You fall out of the sky, 

John: Yeah. 

Mike: then there's a little bit more of an objective perfection 

John: Right. 

Mike: right? 

John: Yeah. 

Mike: if you're a contributor

to a piece of

art or a song or whatever And there are multiple visions or someone else is responsible for defining the goal 

John: Yeah. 

Mike: almost like the individual contributor loses

a connection to almost their right to have an idea of what perfect is because they're not driving the the ship the 

John: Yeah. 

Sam: devil's advocate to this point though. 

and I'm going to guess, and I'm not, this is not based on personal experience at all because I'm not a scientist or an engineer or, uh, architect or any of those things, but.

I'm going to guess that, uh, [00:14:00] even, reduced to that minutia of the idea of something needing to be perfectly plum or 

John: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. 

Sam: I'm going to guess that a lot of engineers, architects, and scientists have probably lost their fucking mind, like pursuit. You know what I mean?

And realize that even at that minutia level, that there had to be some flexibility.

Mike: Yeah, well, there's always, there's always tolerances. The question is how tight is the tolerance to accomplish the goal, right?

John: I think you're right. I think, Uh, a thing about how many, or not how many is as if I've encountered a ton of, um, carpenters in my life. But I, when you see somebody trying to put in a door and it's not square and that, well, we can trim this out here. And so we can, we can compensate for it not being true.

and that, I think it, again, it depends on what, what are the stakes, what, what, right.

Mike: the, the thing that the thing you're working on exists inside of isn't perfect

John: Right. Yes. 

Mike: you had a perfect thing inside of a 

John: Yeah.

Mike: context, you'd still

John: Yeah. 

Mike: [00:15:00] it. 

Sam: I guess what I'm

saying is

that I S I don't think that those individuals in that context are immune the temptation to perseverate the temptation to, to throw good money after bad 

John: Yeah, 

Sam: continue to pursue, 

Even though they're never going to achieve

John: right. And yes, I think about that and I think about, if we're talking about art again and I can't help but think about like, what's a perfect record now? 

Sam: flaming red. 

John: Bob Dylan, yeah. Bob Dylan, Blonde on Blonde is a perfect record. Right. And so someone might go, but it's this and this and that it wasn't recorded to a click.

There was no auto tune. There was bleed for days. I'm assuming. Right. and still at the same time, it could be like, by my definition, it's the perfect record and that is the outcome. what does it do for me? And if I just sit and admire the musicianship and the [00:16:00] songwriting,

uh, and the performance in it, then that's, then that, then it's be complete.

Mike: Perfect in the mind of the consumer.

John: yeah,

Mike: the creator. 

John: Right. 

Mike: just 

John: yes,

Mike: totally disagree with you,

John: and yeah,

Mike: probably does, but yeah, 

John: yeah, I would, I mean, I think you're right, and so I think, again, it's all super contextual, and, What you also described, forgive me if I back up about this phrase, nobody walks into the river the same way twice. And so everything is changing.

And so even, uh, I think about a, a jazz musician who might make a record and they, well, we made this record, uh, and we didn't want to think too much about it. And so then let's say it's somebody listens to it because this just jazz album is perfect. And then maybe the artist would say, if I. If I recorded that music again, um, I would do it differently.

it's interesting, again, thinking about Artists and, musicians that I admire who have, I've listened to interviews and them talk about some record that I just love. And they go, I just can't even listen to [00:17:00] that record. I can't 

Sam: That's 

John: like, well, what are you talking about? and then I would say something kind of daft, like, well, but that record is perfect, 

Sam: Yeah. 

John: but you're, so it's a, it's contextual.

It's in the eye of the beholder or that you're in the listener in this in this, uh, circumstance.

Sam: perfect in the context that it's serving your desires, needs or tastes or whatever at that moment. And I, I'm obsessed with Jon Batiste right now. 

John: Uh huh. 

Sam: um, part of why I'm obsessed with him is that,

you know, in a pursuit to to antidote. Perfectionism, 

John: 

Sam: he's promoting and embodying and this idea that like, um, performance and engagement and sharing musical space is a, is a living organism.

And there's something you know, an, a share of energy that, that has no definition that has no, no, there's no goal. There's no pole position. There's no there's no measure of perfect. It doesn't even exist there. That 

John: Uh, yeah. I mean, I would argue that that's probably true. I think [00:18:00] maybe some things are, again, perfect by a measurement. 

Sam: yeah. 

John: But, um, but that's not the,

that's not the rest of the world necessarily. Uh 

Sam: I 

John: huh.

Sam: uh, like for example, like the use of drum machines or, are in, in his case, even using, guidelines of, charted or, written music. You know what I mean? Like he's, he loves to improvise and he feels like that's part of the experience, you know, by necessity is to, improvise, uh, and be in it and be with it.

But so my point is, is that like, it almost literally negates the paradigm of perfection altogether, 

John: Yeah. 

Sam: know,

Hmm. 

John: and then I kind of go back again to this maximum about the fault lines, fault lines change. And, if perfection is a fault, it's like, 

Like I think about like a literal fault line on earth. Like they can be beautiful, you know, this, this fault line that [00:19:00] you can see this disruption on the planet, you know, that's, that's really beautiful. How this is, how this now looks, it used to be very rounded and flat.

And now these two, kind of shelves collided and created this say mountain range, 

Yeah, 

and like, it's beautiful. and will that Does that change over time? Yes. I mean, really long amounts of time, you know, we won't observe it,

but over time that does change and it's still, and it's 

Sam: technically, 

John: right. None of it is.

That's why I think again, the neurologist is right. You can't walk into the same river, the river

same way twice. And so just everything, 

Mike: but yeah, this is 

John: everything

is changing. Your perception is changing. It's changing and your values are changing. 

Sam: I'd love to to address, um, the fact that you are, uh, officially a licensed, social worker. I believe it is. Is 

John: Uh,

Sam: Yeah. 

John: correct? Yeah. 

Sam: um, with that, I'm sure

that Um, you probably did some study about, the phenomenon of autism. I don't know if [00:20:00] you spent any time studying autism or if you have any personal experience with that, but, um, the behaviors of cognitive inflexibility that, that are found often in autistic people, Is treated, obviously, among many other symptoms 

John: Uh huh. 

Sam: as something that needs to be fixed, you know, I

mean, or that that we need to therapeutically reform behavior so that they can make progress, 

John: huh. 

Sam: in some normality.

John: Yeah.

Sam: You know and and I'm I'm super obsessed with this podcast I'm also listening to other podcasts 

John: Uh huh. 

Sam clone: the Telepathy Tapes ?

John: Uh huh. 

Sam: I don't know if you're

familiar 

John: I don't know that one.

Sam: this woman named Kai Dickens

John: Okay.

and it's profound for

Sam: me, but one of the kind of takeaways, uh, when I'm learning from this population of people is that, it is our materialist. and dogmatic paradigm, [00:21:00] uh, and beholden to language that is not perfect 

John: Uh huh. 

Sam: we are hugely misunderstanding them. And I just wanted to know if you have any insight or any thoughts about that to share.

John: I mean, not, not that specifically. I would just like pull the camera back and think about just like, you kind of started off talking about like cognitive inflexibility, uh, the cognitive, so people who are just super, dare I say, sometimes black and white thinking, 

Sam: Right. 

John: it, you know, it's either this or that.

And so everything that we're discussing here to me is, is gray, is. In the middle. And so I think about that without a, without even, you know, directing anything towards a specific diagnosis or characteristics. Well, not characteristic, but a diagnosis necessarily to me is, cognitive inflexibility.

And so what do we do about, about that?what do we do for ourselves about that when we recognize it in ourselves? Um, and then how do we, uh, live with others who are less cognitively flexible? Um, [00:22:00] Then we would perhaps prefer. 

Sam: Right. 

John: I would say for someone who you see, um, I'm just gonna use the word struggle for a moment.

Someone who is, uh, who, who that inflexibility, um, may, may lead to problems or is leading to problems, uh, social problems, um, there could be some benefit to finding some way to help develop coping skills. 

Sam: Sure. 

John: that one, uh, doesn't continue to have significant impairment in their lives.

And so then I think about that with, again, regard to change. And so, um, those with whom we work and live and even love, um, we see that cognitive inflexibility, from time to time. And so if we're talking about inflexibility, and let's just assume that We feel like this other person in this like transactional relationship or whatever the relationship is, is, is going to be inflexible.

Then I always pivot to, well, then who needs to be, who needs to change [00:23:00] them?

Sam: Right. 

John: And so I go, well, then perhaps I need to change. I need to change. And so it's really changing. I need to change my approach to this because they're not going to change. So what do I need to do to a, like stay safe and to be able to remain in this relationship, whatever that relationship is.

And so I think I kind of start with myself and go, well, what do I need to do differently? Because I'm the one who has the awareness and perhaps I'm the one who's most impacted by this other person's

Sam: love

John: cognitive inflexibility. They,

Sam: who's, who's parameter of

perceived

John: yeah, 

Sam: we going to serve here? 

John: Yeah.

And it, we might even be going back to the. This Maxim boy, our relationship would be perfect if they would just do this one thing. Right? 

Mike: my definition and 

John: Right? I'm, I pulled out, I pulled out my rule book that only I have, and they're not, they're not following the rules. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. 

John: Uh, so I think about that. And, I think about that all the time with, um, in my own personal life, raising a child like, [00:24:00] oh, he doesn't, he's, he doesn't want to do this or he wants to do that.

Or, you know, he's So I think, well, who's the, who's the one with the awareness and who is the one who has actually the capacity to change right now? And so sometimes, um, That might just be me. and again, it's that word change is really difficult. So maybe it's just simply changing my expectation.

Maybe it's just, you know,

Mike: like you're recognizing, where each person is in the relationship and taking a little bit more responsibility, for, for the combination of that relationship. And I think you and I talked about this in our last conversation, like a month or so ago when somebody finally turned me on to Erikson's and stages of development. 

John: uh, yeah. 

Mike: And it was just like, okay, now I get it.

this person at this stage in their life is almost literally programmed to act a certain way, but I've been through that stage and, maybe even a few more. And so I'm willing to take the responsibility for, taking a greater [00:25:00] understanding of where they're coming from in order to make that relationship, as healthy as it can be.

John: Yeah, I think that's right. Mike even just, I'm just going to change my approach it's hard to define what that change is going to be. And it could simply be, I'm just changing me. I'm just changing the way that I think about this or the change of my approach to this relationship, or even again, change, um, My expectation, I might even change the amount of time that I can give this relationship, uh, provided that we have the luxury to do that.

Yeah, so that's why I think like change again in this maximum when as soon as I read that word, I like it because that that is gray changes occurring all the time. And so it's acknowledging that things are changing. 

Sam: yeah, 

John: um, as rigid as they may appear, 

Sam: mm hmm, 

John: uh, things are still changing. And so perhaps the change in me will then change the dynamic in that relationship.

because people have the right to be as inflexible as they want. People, people have the right to not, to not be, [00:26:00] dare I say, quote, I will use the quotes, well. Uh, and, people have the right to do that. And, uh,

you know, within,

Sam: have you read the book, the myth of normal by any 

John: oh, I don't know that book. 

Sam: 

Mike: Just the title's great. The 

John: Yeah, 

Mike: normal,

John: I like it. yeah,

Mike: like,

Sam: guy, the guy who specializes in trauma.

Mike: is it, uh, Gabriel Matur, Am I going to pronounce it wrong?

Sam: Oh yeah.

Mike: Sorry. I'm

Sam: Mate.

Mike: Gabor. So I knew I 

John: Oh yeah. Yeah. 

Mike: it, but I 

John: Yeah. 

Sam: what I wanted to point out

Sam clone: here, you know, in the spirit of change, uh, and with relation to the word fault, you know, I always enter these dissections by, you know, Kind of going online and just like, I'll start out with the etymology of words, you know what I 

John: yeah, 

Sam: kind of, and I was looking at this and I thought this was interesting that under fault line, not the word fault, but fault line, 

John: yeah, 

Sam: uh, one of the descriptions for the word was a problem that may not be obvious, could cause some, something to fail, causing difficulties for oneself or others. 

John: [00:27:00] uh huh, 

Sam: And then definitively said that, you know, fault

lines, Uh, when they are moving slowly and the in the I think this is in the geological world are referred to as the slow movements referred to as creep 

John: uh, 

Sam: then 

John: yeah, 

Sam: movement is definitively referred

to as earthquake

John: Oh, yeah, 

Mike: that makes 

John: huh, 

Sam: and I just found that to be really powerful like that,

like, you know, that there's, I feel like nature is informing us that there's an inherent kind of, you know, 

Movement is okay. 

John: uh huh, huh, 

Sam: Creep, be okay.

uh earthquake is I think sending an obvious 

John: yeah, 

Sam: know, like, you know,

uh, 

John: yeah, e e e e e e e e,

Sam: just, unpacks these like powerful metaphors for us, you know what I mean? And when you're right in front of our face and we're like, okay, yeah.

So, uh, fast or erratic change is probably not a good idea.

John: mm, it d d [00:28:00] depends. 

Sam: yeah, 

John: Faster erratic change, uh, could save your life.

Sam: I

Mike: good point. 

John: Right? There's a bear. I'm out of here. 

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: That's true. You make a good 

John: There's a, there's a, you know, timely, there's a fire. I'm out of here. 

Mike: Yeah. 

John: flood. I'm, yeah, so I think it depends again on what are the consequences. Uh,

Mike: you brought this up in an earlier episode you know, when I brought up that anecdote about having to stop and chat with my neighbor and the alarm went off and I managed to silence the alarm and I was sharing that with my therapist and I said, yeah, but maybe the next stage is to not actually have the alarm go off.

And you're like, no, no, no, that, you know, I forget how you put it, but it was basically,

Sam: is a good 

Mike: uh,

Yeah,

Mike clone: yeah, yeah, you know,

it's so, but, but then the idea of like what you do with it or how you use it becomes really the key. Right? So in this John's fight or flight example of the bear, it's just like the alarm came, that was good. And then you did what you needed to do to serve your purpose at that time. Right?

[00:29:00] 

John: in our last extended conversation,

Mike: you talked about, being with something entirely, but then being able to pause it. it had to do with like focusing on a leaf, 

John: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. 

Mike: can you just like talk to that a little

bit and the concept behind it.

John: Yeah. It is, it is completely borrowed from, dialectical like behavior therapy, skills training and mindfulness. And, and so I'll like, that's the asterisk here. This like, it's not my concept, but like being

Right.

Mike: So, 

John: You know? It is. 

Mike: just 

John: Yeah. 

Mike: that flies 

John: Yeah. 

Mike: over the whole thing. 

John: So what I like the idea about [00:30:00] mindfulness is that it is kind of what you're describing or both of you describing this moment is like being fully participating in whatever it is that you're doing, um, so that you're able to do it and that you're not multitasking, right?

And so it's kind of the only thing that you're doing, but also not being so attached to the moment that you can't be flexible. And if you need to pivot away from it to do something else that you're able to do that. I mean, that's like a super, brief version, but I think that's what, we were talking about and the way that, uh, it can be helpful to practice that in the way that I like to do that is if I'm, if I'm out walking, sometimes it could be nice to just look at something, uh, and a leaf is always a good one is to just go look at a leaf and describe this leaf and to touch it and to just be doing that for a second.

it's like kind of grounding, um, and then. I'm just doing that. And then say if I'm on a walk with somebody else and they want to keep going, then all right, I can do that too. I can. Okay. I can let this leaf go. I'm not so attached to that moment that I can, [00:31:00] I can go on.

Yeah.

Well, I wish I'm sure my son would, would wish that I sounded more like a parent more often,

uh, that I had more patients that I'm talking about now, but.

Sam: are the fundamental skills of parenting of, of just arriving at the moments of inspiration for your child that aren't your own.

John: Yeah, but I think, I think it's also, but I wouldn't limit it to just parenting it like what you just described and what Mike described is that, you know, you're talking to your neighbor, the alarm goes off, 

Sam: Yeah. 

John: uh, I want to stay engaged and I do, and this other thing exists. I do have this other obligation.

Sam: Yeah.

John: And that's okay to have both of those things.

And, and it's okay to say, I have to go now. I mean, that's really, this are healthy limits. You know, it's, it's self validating to say, I, there is something else that I have to do. In fact, it does take priority over this conversation as much as I enjoyed this conversation. I, I am going to go do this now because it is something that needs to be addressed.

And

Sam: if you weren't finished enjoying that conversation yet though, that I think it's important to, to, to

Mike: Oh

Sam: I

Mike: yeah. Sorry. So [00:32:00] would you, do you build in some elasticity to

it? 

John: you, 

Sam: feel like you 

John: Yeah.

uh, I would say you can, 

Sam: Yeah. 

John: cannot. To me, that is also like flexible. I mean, that is giving again, it's, everything is like they are case by case basis. there's nothing that says we have to build in flexibility to engage in a conversation. if there is something else that you, that

you, I mean, we prioritize things in life all the time.

And so I think there may be, and I think the caveat could be, Hey, listen, I've really enjoyed this. Can I, can we,

I've got to do this thing. Can we meet at one o'clock and do this again? Uh, and yeah. Or no, and that's okay because maybe they have something else prioritized at one o'clock that they have to do too.

So I think it's a, it's a two way street, but I, I think it's in an ideal world, it would be really nice, but, um, that also is keeping us just so like floating and not, not tethered to any, anything that, that, that could get old after a while, like, right. So I think [00:33:00] like, some people like, I like the rigidity of having to do this same thing every day.

And in fact, that's like, that's something that you can rely on. Uh, a schedule that is, consistent is, is really good. It's actually something that you can count on and that actually can kind of reduce, uh, some anxiety and unwanted emotions. Knowing that

Sam: Yeah. 

John: are going to get met every day when I do this,

Mike: or, uh,create more available bandwidth. To allocate to something else, right? there's some people, I'm just going to wear the same shirt every day, so I don't have to spend three minutes thinking about what I'm going to wear today.

John: right? 

Mike: I can reallocate that mind

share and that bandwidth to something else, 

John: Yeah. 

Sam: That's real talk. 

John: Yeah.

absolutely. Um, and then, and then at some point you might say again, the flexibility is, and then maybe next month I won't feel the same way and I'm going to go buy 20 new t shirts.

Sam: I'm not done observing out loud, the profound [00:34:00] fundamentals. that were taught by, for example, children. Like I brought that up earlier. Like I remember going on a walk with my daughter when she was little she pointed at the ground cause she saw a leaf that she didn't recognize that looked different than all the other 

John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: mind, just to set the scene. You know, we had a routine walk where we went around a certain number of blocks and like then we went home You know, I mean and like I I mean I was there for the walk. I was showing up for that I was there to spend the time with her was there to hold her hand to make sure she crossed the street safely But you know in my mind i'm like a horse back going back to the stable once we're halfway around the block I'm, like already ready to be home and already in My mind what we're doing when we get back, you know, I 

John: Yeah. 

Sam: Um where she saw this this leaf

and my wife at the time Her mother was like, Oh, well, that is interesting, Amber, that you're noticing that that leaf is different than the other leaves. Let's pick it up and take a look at it. Maybe we should step into the [00:35:00] library at the end of the block and ask the librarian if she can help us figure out what tree this leaf comes from. And in my mind, I'm thinking like, are you, 

John: Right. 

Sam: me like we're going to do this right now, 

John: Yeah. 

Sam: But that and I wasn't I was a

stepfather. So I was a new I was new to 

John: Yeah. 

Sam: this you know And but man,

I like to this day like I treasure 

John: Yes. 

lessons I treasure that moment. It

taught me so much my attachments my ideas my obsessions and my you know, all of that 

Yes. Yeah. 

Sam: and I, I, I really

treasure that. And so I feel like, I feel like as a society, now I'm going macro, 

John: Sure. 

Sam: like I feel like as a society, 

we could just use less rigidity and some more wonder and some more curiosity and some more, you know, openness to spending time in those spaces and less you know, 

John: Yeah. 

Sam: [00:36:00] uh,

John: Yeah. I guess I agree with that. I also think, um, You know, like trying to, again, find like the gray of, of all of that. Like, how do you do both? So what if we say, um, I go for a walk for 15 minutes or whatever, however, the time you had had set aside, however that routine, you know, takes, if that's a 30 minute trip, it'd be nice if maybe you say, you know, for now on, I'm going to schedule an hour to do this and maybe we get it done in 30 minutes, but I'm going to give us an hour so that we can enjoy those.

Those moments and at the same, so then, of course, then I go and, and also it's, it's important that we're also again, teaching perhaps our child that we don't always have the luxury of doing this because at some point life will not be. So we will, we may not, we may. 

Sam: have to teach them that? 

John: Well, yeah, I get what you're saying, but it's also because life is not, it's not always their oyster and they're not always whatever, however, age seven 

Sam: [00:37:00] Yeah. 

John: Uh, and there are times when, again, we have to be flexible and pivot and we'd like, we can't be so attached to the moment that we can't go do something else to say, fulfill our obligation, uh, or take care of other things that do need to be done and are important. Um, So sometimes, yeah, like, hey, yes, let's go, let's just go here and do this, and then other times, I'm sorry, we need to go home now.

Mike: I would make an argument that you've, you've demonstrated a comprehensive, um, Representation and now they know both.expose them to these different things and then allow them to pick and choose what's going to work for them going forward as they develop and evolve into 

John: Yeah, yeah, it Does 

Mike: seen both now They've seen a

little from

column a and a little bit

from

John: Yes. 

Mike: you know, maybe they're going to get pulled more in one

direction than the other Maybe it's going to be split But I kind of feel like your responsibility was to open their eyes to both of those options 

John: It, uh, yeah, to me, it's like validating that I, [00:38:00] yes, I enjoyed this, and I would like to keep doing this all day. And, There's something else I have to do. And so it's also, so what I'm doing is modeling, like I even myself would rather continue to do what we're doing and look at all the leaves and I have to go to work.

And so at that point you're modeling that cognitive flexibility that we were talking about. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. I can still have wonderment and I can still, so both of these things can coexist. I don't have to be anxious or depressed

about what I don't have to resist reality.

Mike: your work actually involves helping other people you Who 

John: It may, 

Mike: you 

John: it may, it may, or it may not, or you may be the most narcissistic individual and that, and, and so again, it's like finding, it's finding the gray area in both of those. Um, it's not that one thing is more important. This is, I do have these other obligations and here's what it looks like when we have to pivot in real time and, and not, um, act out necessarily or,

or, or be willful and put our feet down and say, no, I'm not doing that.

Sam: Hmm. 

John: now we're back to [00:39:00] rigidity, 

Mike: Mm-hmm 

John: right? So, but, so this is how we remain flexible is,

um,

Mike: That's a good point.

Sam: you know, we didn't just literally stick to perfect as a fault and fault lines 

Mike: right.

Brought in some other

ideas and flexibility and mindfulness But I was just thinkingthat if like Michael Stipe ever heard this, 

John: Oh, 

Mike: like, Hey, you guys. It's one line in 

John: yeah. 

Mike: on 

John: Yeah. Right. 

Mike: one body

of work

John: Right. 

Yeah.

Mike: It's just like what the fuck are you guys

doing?

John: I feel like there's a lot of songs that have that. Just like at least for some, you know, contextually, the one line might stick out, uh, for people and you could just, you know, uh, and, and you can find so much meaning in it.

Um, which would be perhaps you're like the, the author of my guy. It's not at all what I meant. 

Mike: Yeah. 

John: Uh, I,

you know,

Mike: seen the Springsteen storytellers,

he's like, you know, it's a, it's clearly a forced task for him to go through and, talk about. thunder road or something off, uh, devils and [00:40:00] dust and say it was about this,

this, this, 

John: yeah,

Mike: this, and then he goes, I'm going to 

butcher this, but he's like, how much of that was I thinking about at the time? 

John: yeah, 

Mike: of it.

John: right, right, right.

Mike: was he? It is. How much was I feeling? None

John: Yeah. 

Mike: All of it, 

John: right? 

Mike: right?

John: Yeah. 

Mike: just like, so

this idea of

asking a songwriter to go

back and offer a literal literal interpretation of what a song is about, you know, for the 

John: Right. 

Mike: is like such an odd exercise,

John: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's often just user definable. It's up to the listener to interpret it. I mean, it can be, I should say.

Yeah.

Sam: Uh,

research shows that perfectionism hampers achievement and is correlated deeply with depression, anxiety, addictive, and life paralysis, missed opportunities, um.

Mike: 

Sam: But you

know, I mean, it's, it's an, it's an indicator. Uh, it's an indicator of trauma, it's an indicator of narcissism. and, and a lot [00:41:00] of, and a lot of things, uh, that I find ill in our society. Uh, most of, well, the, Construct of conditional love and, and, and how that shows up in, in the abuse of young people.

John: yeah, 

Sam: and I just, I just,

I love that we unpacked this Maxim because I, I feel a deep prejudice against the paradigm of perfection, the idea of it, uh, I rebuke it um, And although we've discovered in this discussion that it definitely has a place and in context and I get all that, uh, but I wanted to share that as my personal reflection on this, discussion.

And I am, I am grateful that, our fault lines continue to move and that there is migration in our learning and in our experience as human beings together. Uh, So, but I wanted to also just in one, in one last breath here, just thank you, uh, John for taking time to do this with us. Cause this is a worthwhile, use of [00:42:00] time to, give pause to some of the adages and quips that we rattle off and in our everyday language and abuse our, our, our beautiful language.

And, all too often don't stop to like, understand things deeper, you know.

John: yeah, 

Mike: that Sam, you're so much better expressing

your gratitude to our guests, 

but all of that 

yeah, I, yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. I do think that you're, both right in that. And I would say that someone might argue that just perfectionism just doesn't exist. Um, and, and if it does, then it's terribly boring, but I think the, the wish for anybody was just enjoy the process of what it is that you're trying to perfect, um, because I would say at the end of the day, that's truly all you have

[00:43:00] I'm so happy that you decided to share that, that edit from I Believe at the end there, because I feel like, you know, that is such a powerful song. I love how the whole conversation evolved into the kind of multiple trajectories of that, that initial, what we call a maxim, but that initial quote, you know, and how it flows in this lyric of the song to My Shirt is Thin and changes what I believe in.

You know what I mean? It's like, yeah. Science largely is the pursuit of, of questions. It's the pursuit of curiosity [00:44:00] and wanting to know more. And without the unanswered questions, science doesn't exist, you know, so it's the pursuit of change. It's the pursuit of pursuit of progress. It's the, yeah.

You know, and it's like, I just love that. Yeah. I think they know that other scientists will come along after them and challenge those theories and results. And Maybe refine them. I don't know. I haven't got the slightest idea. I just know how that song makes me feel. Yeah, it makes me, it gives me the feels.

But I, I feel like also like John and I finally aligned right kind of towards the end of, of what he was contributing there when he said, you know, perhaps perfectionism or perfect doesn't even exist. And I'm like, I'm like, yes, I've been negating that all along. Yeah, for sure. But I also like that he rolled that into a pretty positive outlook, right?

Which is you can have goals and in pursuit of those goals, [00:45:00] hopefully you don't lose sight of enjoying the process of attempting to achieve them and all the life lessons and all the enjoyment that can come from that. Through the process and not merely in the results, right? A hundred percent, man. I really hope, uh, as a takeaway from this episode, but also just from our experience so far facilitating and hosting this.

podcast. I hope people listening are taking that ride. I hope people listening are enjoying the discourse and, especially with a valued guest like John, I feel like John Deaderick just brought so much value. I felt like the conversation had really good flow and, and there was a lot of discovery in it, which I love, you know?

Yeah. And, and you touched on this a bit towards the end, that pursuit of perfection and the anxiety that it can bring to the equation. um, can be self sabotaging and if there was a, a lesson to my younger self, let's just [00:46:00] say in that it's that I can't even think of how many times I probably allowed that to happen 

And I probably spent decades getting in my own way. By way of injecting extra pressure and anxiety on what the end result was going to be, that if I had simply freed myself up to enjoy the process a little bit more, it's very difficult to imagine that the end result wouldn't have benefited from that approach.

100%, which is why, which is why this song, Grips your heart. I think you're right. This song is a hundred percent about permitting yourself to be lost in the lust and wander of Change and to be committed to it to to be religious about it to be in it to be in it And and I love that surrender dude.

I love that kind of surrender and you know You don't realize that in a song like this until you really unpack it and live with it and and and make it [00:47:00] your own But yes But that's why this song chokes you up and that's why it chokes me up. That's great. A hundred percent. And what's interesting, I find I'm going back, not in a nostalgic sense and listening to a lot of music that I connected to when I was younger.

And, you know, I'm kind of a late bloomer, but I liked it for one reason or another. And I am finding a little bit of a pattern. in the stuff that I'm revisiting in that it had a relevance to me in that time that I didn't necessarily recognize. Oh yeah. And so when I reconnect with that song, it's not necessarily that I'm seeing it from an entirely different perspective, but I am seeing it through a different lens of awareness.

And I think that is in large part why that particular line in this particular song spends a fair amount of time in my [00:48:00] head. And this would be a really good opportunity to share the quote more accurately, which I'm not sure that we did in the episode. But it goes back to that. You never walk in the same river twice.

That's right. I'd like to go back and actually figure out what that quote is. Um, because I'm obviously not listening to this song through the same perspective and lens that I heard it when I was 16, but that doesn't necessarily mean. That it's not speaking to some of the same things that I was either dealing with, would eventually deal with, and hopefully might even eventually be able to change my perspective on.

Beautiful connection, Mike. Thanks. Beautiful connection, man. That is, that is 100 percent accurate. And our experience with music is similar in that it took a period of adjustment for me to go from feeling like, Oh. I was listening to all of this, you know, uh, Elvis Costello, or I was listening to all of this Tragically Hip, or listening [00:49:00] to all this R.

E. M., you know, as a young man and missing all of this. Depth and all of this sophistication, and I'm like, no, I wasn't. It was absolutely bathing me with wisdom at the time in, in a way that I was ready for. And then mm-hmm . Now as a 53-year-old man, I'm unpacking it. Mm-hmm . From a whole different perspective and it's, it's continues to serve me.

Yeah. Which is amazing, you know? Yeah. So, I love it. Well, I hope that that's true for everyone, whether it comes in the form of music and songs. Or art or sculpture or anything that is in the slightest bit abstract. That's right. Right. And then maybe you connected with it.

You maybe you're connecting with it to your point on the same level that you were during some other period, but not necessarily with the same level of consciousness and in an analysis or, um, it was always relevant. but now you have a better understanding. [00:50:00] As to why. At least a different understanding.

Great. Love it. Ha ha ha.

Hey, it's Sam and Mike, and we appreciate you coming on this journey with us today. We hope that if you enjoyed it, you'll tell a friend or better yet, share a link to this podcast and let your community know directly how it impacted you. That would really help us reach more listeners. Just like yourself.

Thanks again for listening today. Feel free to email us at info at MaximEQpodcast. com and share some favorite Maxims, adages, cliches, that maybe we should consider for future episodes. Or perhaps just leave a kind message. Maybe some feedback. Till next time, make it a great [00:51:00] day.