Comparison is the Theft of Joy

This engaging episode of Maxim EQ dives deep into the adage “Comparison is the Theft of Joy” with guest Chris Hancock, an integrative therapist and former musician who blends psychology, spirituality, and lived experience. Together we discuss how our natural tendency to compare—especially in the age of social media—often leads to despair and disconnection. Yet, when approached consciously, comparison can be redirected toward empathy and self-understanding.

We explore how healing comes from identifying the “parts” of ourselves that seek validation, the dangers of unconscious comparison, and the liberating power of self-awareness. The conversation travels from social media and self-image to spiritual integration, parenting, and healing. Expect insights on mindfulness, the psychology of comparison, and what it means to choose love over competition in everyday life.

Thanks for listening,
Mike

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to Maxim eq, where we explore the common sensical through individual interpretation at a time when the profound is too often reduced to cheap memes and goofy bumper stickers, we head in the opposite direction, digging deeper to examine the commonalities and differences in our perceptions around a particular adage.

In each episode, we'll discuss our guest take on a thought provoking maxim, designed to promote self-reflection and personal growth for us, but hopefully for you as well. Today's guest is known by some, as the former drummer and collaborator of early 1990s, Columbia Records band expanding man, and subsequently Nashville's Tremolo in September land back in the early two thousands.

However, for the last 26 years, Chris Hancock has been a practicing LCSW, and in recent years has really gained great notoriety for his less than conventional, holistic, integrative transpersonal psychotherapy practices in the Nashville, Tennessee area. The maximum we [00:01:00] examine today is comparison is the theft of joy, or as Chris rephrased it, compare and despair.

This is a juicy one that we think will conjure feelings of empathy and relatability to a very broad audience. Hopefully you'll have some thoughts to share with us after listening. Now 

Maxim, EQ with Sam Wahl and me, Mike Baumer. 

Mike: Welcome to Maxim eq. Chris Hancock. 

Chris: Thank you. Yeah, gentlemen, thank you. Good to be here with you both. Love you both. 

Sam: Hey, so Chris, so we, we made kind of a, you know, a cursory introduction.

I, I let everybody know that you're a, you're an LCSW and, and a musician and a songwriter and all that, but. [00:02:00] Would you mind starting out just by kind of telling us a, a little bit about what your current practice is, is about and and what you do? 

Chris: Sure. Correct. LCSW. Yeah. It's funny, I was thinking about this the other day in, in the lead up to this, if I were to be asked this type of question, and one thing that crossed my mind for the reasons that would be most obvious to you two is that music. You know, however you define doing that professionally, I probably did it professionally for one year, right. Maybe two. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. And I, and I've been doing this now for 26 years, just for like perspective, it kind of blows my mind. Right. Because much of it's a blur for a hundred different reasons.

But 

Sam: yeah, fair 

Chris: enough To kind of jump into your question. Right. So I. For the last five, six years, [00:03:00] I'd say the first 20 were just in preparation for getting me to where I am now. And the best answer to where I am now or what I'm doing now is I'm doing the work of my life that I should have always been doing, should, you know what I mean?

Uh, better late than never in linear time speak, I guess, but Sure. Um, what I'm doing is. A combination of depth therapy using my favorite method of choice, which you know about, and maybe we'll get into that a little bit if you guys want to. In combination with, uh, the transpersonal, which really is defined as beyond the personal or beyond the self, the spiritual realm at large, and also.

My other experiential process, which is a purely spiritual transpersonal process that I more or less put together myself with the help of just say higher [00:04:00] sources for now. And those are my two main offerings. So, um, but I guess in general, big picture is I'm working in the psychospiritual domain, the transpersonal domain, with people that are aligned with that.

Sam: So, would it be fair to say that, that at this stage of your career and, and lifestyle, you are, um, you're operating almost entirely outside of the kind of conventions of what would be considered normal social work therapy. 

Chris: Therapy outside the box. Right, 

Sam: right, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, which 

Chris: is my wife Melissa came up with that name spontaneously years ago when it was clear that I was in the middle of a, you know, what's conventionally called, a rebranding, tearing all the old down and, and yeah, trying to put it back together in a way that reflects where I was starting to go and where I am now.

She just out with that one [00:05:00] day and we were like, that's perfect. It's so good. It has to be taken. Then we go looking for the URLs. Shockingly, we discover it's not taken. 

Sam: Yeah. Wow. It is, it's a great, it's a great title. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So yeah, just I would love to, to get into the maximum that we chose today, which I believe is, uh, comparison is the theft of joy.

Comparison is the theft of joy. So I just kind of wanted to know. Uh, initially, like what that compelled you to think about or reflect on, and what's your first inclination to share about that particular maxim? 

Chris: I thought I would ask first if I may, which one of you came up with that? And 

Mike: it's not original.

Yeah. 

Chris: Okay. Yeah. I mean, I know there's a lot of variations of it. I have my own. Okay. We'll get into that. Which one of you thought of that for this Oh 

Mike: j. Well, just to add to our collection for people to choose from. I [00:06:00] probably threw it out there pretty recently.

Sam: Yeah. It came from Mike. It came from Mike's pot. Right. 

Chris: And what's like, what's your context? Oh, but we 

Mike: invited you as a guest to talk about yours. Hey. Yeah. Cool. And I'm gonna go there. I, I've been tuned into some of these, like just trying to look at things a little bit differently from time to time and.

Now my YouTube feed gets, uh, inundated with things like, you know, zen philosophy, videos to listen to in the morning and that kind of thing. And this one's pretty standard and fairly cliche, which is also part of where, you know, the premise for Maxim EQ comes from, which is kind of hearing things on surface level and just accepting them or not accepting them for, for their common interpretations.

And so, okay. Yeah, comparison is the theft of joy. Well I'll just use another, a cheap, context for it, which is in the age of social media and people just like mindlessly and continuously scrolling through Instagram, somebody [00:07:00] is comparing their life to some ideal representation and probably inaccurate.

interpretation of someone else's situation, and that's having some type of effect on them. And typically it's a negative effect. Uh, it can be effects of self-esteem, it can be effects of not being good enough, et cetera. And so I used a, a modern context for it, but I think it's an age old trap, essentially.

Mm-hmm. Which is where the maxim comes from. 

Sam: Yeah. I would extrapolate on that and say that that's really, that, that is the. The leveraged value of social media is that it is, it is absolutely exploiting people's compulsion to compare themselves bam, and to, and to seek status quo. and that is, I among many others, uh, like alcoholism or tobacco use or whatever is a, an addictive behavior that I think becomes a modality that people get stuck in, you know, uh, whereas.

comparison as a [00:08:00] freestanding, what would that be? A verb can be a useful tool, you know what I mean? It can actually be, uh, a positive, um, useful tool, uh, by which to gauge, one self or even two, even in an empathetic mode, you know what I mean? You could even be comparing yourself to others, uh, in order to kind of monitor your own empathy.

Um, I mean. Yeah, 

Mike: and or what does comparison even mean? Am I comparing myself externally or am I comparing to a former version of myself and perhaps the growth between, the Delta growth from where I was to where I am now? So, again, to the point, open to all sorts of interpretations, but I think on the surface level, uh, people tend to gravitate to the headline one, which is why Sam and I felt like it might be.

A topic worthy of exploration, you know, a little bit deeper. 

Sam: So this, this particular maxim suggests that [00:09:00] comparison leads to the death of joy. So let's, let's at least give that some attention and cool. And unpack that, that mode of comparison first, you know, uh, and that's where I want to hear your initial thoughts, Chris.

Chris: So when I first read that one, it brought to mind one of the old sayings, I don't know from whom or when, but it's been kicked around the psychology world forever, which is compare and despair. So that's obviously slanted toward the view that just to engage in the comparison, whether it's conscious or unconscious, is gonna lead to despair, right?

Right. That it's rooted in insecurity. It's rooted in root inadequacy, you know, probably shame and all sorts of, the sludge at the bottom of the bucket that we all have some of. Right. So I guess one thought I have on it is, and you kind of made this point too, Sam, and this is why I asked you guys for a little bit of context.

So an operative [00:10:00] question is to what End? Right. So like I can use an example of, to some degree, to varying degrees over the course of my career as a therapist in with my own therapist mentor. I've been comparing, right? Of course I would, I would truly say never to the point of despairing, but with that person as a model, not for exactly how I want to be or who I want to be.

But if someone that I deemed to be early on, incomplete integrity, someone who really lives in and leads their life from their larger self, before I even had a pretty fleshed out idea of what that meant to me, more intuitive from the get go, I would always compare by way of as a yardstick or a measurement, right.

How he conducts himself, his life, how he would speak about his [00:11:00] work. I could go on and on with examples, but never leading to me feeling more inadequate or insecure. A measurement of my being less experienced. Right. Always. And, a sort of, uh, attainable carrot on the stick. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not the forever elusive carrot on the stick, but one that I could eventually grab.

But it would have to, of course, become kind of my own carrot. Sure, of course. If that, I'm, I'm mixing metaphors, but 

Mike: did it ever though, and that's great and it sounds really healthy, right? It's aspirational, um, that you're modeling something after you're trying to model yourself after someone or something that you respect, and that you're, um, setting a goal toward, so to speak.

Did you ever find that it contributed in any way to impatience or anxiety about. Getting from where you were at that time to wanting to get to that goal? Great question, man. 

Chris: [00:12:00] Yeah, that's a good question. Generally speaking, I would say no, not in patience or urgency. 'cause I always knew this is a long game, you know?

And I mean, what I said earlier, evidence is that 20, this is year 26, and I really feel like I'm just getting started. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So in this, in this current iteration, which I think will be my final iteration of what I'm kind of here to do through this, uh, funnel of doing therapy, human service work, whatever.

But, I can say there were times where more unconsciously as I look back, I, tried to hold myself to a standard. Uh, with him as the model that was not really for me and ultimately did not do me favors. To get really micro about that, what I'm thinking of here is the fact that this is a guy who [00:13:00] could, could, and literally did for decades.

See 10 people a day, five days a week. Wow. And often back to back. Maybe with one lunch break in the middle, short one, but otherwise all morning appointments, afternoon, back to back, no break. Not even the classic 10 minutes. Crazy. And it just worked for him. It's how he did it. Well, and I don't know how, but that in part led me to, uh, try to emulate that to a degree, but.

With many other factors involved over the last 10 years or so, really brought me to a complace of, of, of complete. Yeah. 

Sam: Right, right. 

Chris: So that was one thing that I had to totally change, which I have, 

Sam: so. Okay. Fair enough. And where you're at now and 

The way that you connect with your clients now, you know, the little I know about it and the one experience I had in one of your group sessions, It operates in a little bit more of a, um, [00:14:00] a guided singularity mode as opposed to teacher student mode. It's, we are here together. you know, and you are bringing leadership to that and you're guiding that.

But I, I think that you would probably discourage your clients in that mode to even be in a space of comparison or in the space of tooling of any kind. Rather just to be there with you in more of a singularity mode, sharing ex an exposure or consciousness, um, that everyone is, uh, experiencing.

Yeah, simultaneously. And am I wrong to say that? 

Chris: No, not at all. Not at all. So maybe just for anyone listening for some. Deeper context on that. So you participated in one group offering that I was doing of my most transpersonal experiential process. Because you were in town Yeah. And you wanted to do it that I was really running an experiment for an entire year of doing this one process at a metaphysical, uh, place every month for free [00:15:00] for a year, really to give me practice in doing that method in groups for, for a whole sorts of reasons.

We don't have to go into here, but Yes. Because one thing that experiment showed me was that, especially because in that I was bringing in people that I didn't know, those were not my clients. Only one was, you know, the person who was sort of my Guinea pig for that particular process. Everyone else was unknown to me, except some of them were sort of repeat, uh, participants.

Right? But that process showed me that it was important at the beginning. To kind of give the caveat food for thought that when we get to the end of the process, a purely subjective, co-facilitated, mystical experience type process. To put it just succinctly that when we get to the end, anyone is free to share what their experience was.

But I remember saying to people, don't compare and 

Sam: [00:16:00] despair, compare, and so I guess the point, yeah. I wanted to circle back and just, and just kind of punctuate. that the modality of, of student and teacher can absolutely live, uh, within a, a comparison mode, uh, scenario. but it's not mutually exclusive.

And that, that, in fact, I think in a lot of cases and a lot of experiences, um, one would be encouraged, like you just said, not to compete. Not to be in a mode of comparing themselves with their BofA or their teacher or their, um, right. I think, uh, I think that that's, yeah, for sure.

I think that that, that it's not of reach to conceive of that just, uh, logically that that is probably not a healthy. Way to receive teaching. However, in the conventional practice, like I remember when you were doing your practicum work, you know what I mean, under the leadership of a, an [00:17:00] advisor in order to get your licensure.

And that is very much about compare yourself against this manual, compare yourself against my teaching, compare yourself against, the advice that I give you and Yeah. You know what I mean? and so. I'm finding that that seems to be intrinsically a lessor less effective and, um, just a less, just less.

Chris: Yeah. It, it, yeah. Right. If I'm tracking with what you're saying, it basically feeds all the most unhealthy impulses that are natural tolerance. Exactly. 

Mike: So speaking of Right, if you're going to, especially as a professional. Guide clients, maybe even as a parent, whatever, people not to compare and despair.

It's one thing to say, don't do it right, but if it's human nature to gravitate to it and not only gravitate to it, but do it in that unhealthier way for, you know, having that despair, consequence, [00:18:00] what are the actual tools or guidelines or guidance I should say, that you might offer someone to support them.

Not doing that as opposed to simply telling them not to do it, you know? 

Chris: Right. 

Yeah, yeah. So it, well, so in that experimental process that we were just talking about, I think I, I think I framed it more or less in terms of. Look out for that tendency. it's not a crime. It's natural, but it, it won't take you to the right place, right? If you're hearing somebody else's experience of what happened during their process, right?

And they blasted off into space and had a soul retrieval and met Mother Mary, and you just felt calm, there might be a natural tendency to compare and to, and to, and for that not to take you to a good place, right? There's something wrong with me. I'm being, uh, forsaken by spirit, you know, all sorts of things, but to maybe generalize it as a therapist, what would I do when that's presenting as a primary issue, which [00:19:00] really I.

Not a lot do I hear people bringing that up as like, help me with this. I'm constantly comparing and discussing, well, it's 

Mike: one thing to not be, it's, it's one thing to Yeah. Articulate it and be aware of it on that, like, as that description. Yeah. It's another thing to see the behavior and the ramifications of it.

And can you identify those, you know, and, and 

Chris: for sure. And to whichever one of you made the point earlier about social media being the, you know, the, the, the primary aggravator of that. Mm-hmm. Probably by designs, you know, as it's as it's designed to be addictive too. Right? So, so my main tool for that would be, and this, this is a reflection of kind of what is my holy grail in terms of a map of the psyche or the personality or understanding the inner imaginal realm.

The psychic realm. Our inner being experience really comes from multiplicity of mind. The idea that we're all multiple, we're one and many mm. It's paradoxical. There's a lot of shamanic support for this [00:20:00] idea. Many, many spiritual traditions, major and minor, have conceptions of this with different language.

But the idea that we all have a larger, undamaged, eternal self or larger self, higher self universal soul, again, goes by a million names, and we all have parts of us, which are also known as sub personalities. Which are parts that can literally exist frozen in time at different ages of our lifecycle, can also be past life parts, can be parts that inherited or epigenetically came in with burdens or wounds or extreme beliefs or all of that from past generations on either side, ancestors, this kind of thing and more.

But the idea being that you know, the larger self when we're in touch with self. That's when we feel clear, clear minded, calm, compassionate, [00:21:00] creative, um, courageous, right? Presence where we have feel, presence, we feel, uh, playfulness, we feel, uh, persistent, all sorts of, I could go on and on about the qualities that distinguish the self state from the state of our parts that are either holding pain, holding old burdens.

Or parts that have been thrust into and are kind of stuck in protective roles, either over the self or other parts, or both, if that generally makes sense. So to try to answer really the question of what would I do, I'm mainly always coming from that vantage point, whether I'm doing that work with someone specifically or not, because that's my map and model.

Um, so if, if the idea of somebody. Being lost in comparing and despairing, right? Or wondering why they don't have more access to joy or peace. And it's discovered that they're, you know, scrolling social [00:22:00] media 12 hours a day, right? What I would try to get that person interested in, probably first and foremost, we could always do a little bit of like energy psychology sort of shortcut hacking on trying to just give them a little leg up by clearing out some of the baggage that drives that.

Which really is also parts work. But mainly I'd be trying to interest them in going inside like a soft meditation and trying to find in them or around them or on them where they notice the feeling or energy or even the voice of the part that's driving the comparison bus. Yeah. 

Sam: Uh, interesting. Yeah, yeah.

So to 

Chris: speak, to discover ultimately, what is that part trying to do for us? Hmm. Perhaps in the, in a, in a misguided way. Yeah. But what is it trying to do, do for, so you're us, you're not 

Mike: just trying to redirect them from destructive to constructive. You're also actually trying to get to the root of what's, what's attracting them to that more destructive?

Um, [00:23:00] of course. Okay. Okay.

Chris: What is, what is that part or group of parts trying to accomplish? Hmm. And, and let's say we were able to quickly identify which we usually can, whether those are managerial or protective parts, doing the projecting and comparing the result in this case being something like despair, shame, and adequacy, inferiority.

We wanna know from those parts we want. The person with enough self energy access to themselves, ask that part. What are you most afraid would happen if you didn't do that? And that's where you start to get the gold of what really drives that kind of part to keep going, trying to accomplish whatever it's accomplishing with that.

Uh. Push or, or that method that it picked up from somewhere. Yeah. 

Sam: Uh, one, one thing that I was gonna share, uh, just before you answered that question,

Uh, one, one thing that I was gonna share, uh, just before you [00:24:00] answered that question, and that was absolutely, very thorough and brilliant. I appreciate you sharing all that 'cause that, but uh, yeah. I remember when I first kind of just started to discover the idea of refining mindfulness practices in my normal everyday life.

The teacher that, that was leading my classroom, uh, was wise enough to offer small, you know, hacks, I would call them hacks requiring less mm-hmm. Of a deep, uh, disciplinary space and more just kind of everyday life modalities, you know, um, starting with, um, being aware of yourself when you start to feel impatient about the passing of time.

And just kind of bringing a, a, a, you know, a a sense of gratitude to each minute as it passes and, and being there with it and not, not being constantly in a state of anticipation of the next minute. [00:25:00] Um, and also, um, one that sticks with me to this day, which I feel like is attacking this very compulsion of comparison, and that is that when you encounter another person.

Um, to encourage one, to move towards a, uh, an experience of singularity when you're looking through the eyes of another person, to immediately, uh, remind yourself to see yourself. Yeah. So as opposed to comparing yourself to them to look in through the windows of their eyes and see what similarities you have immediate, make it, make haste to, to find similarity, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. 

Chris: Right. And again, there's a whole, you know, long lineage of this supporting this kind of idea. Like, uh, what was it, Nisa gta who wrote the book called I Am That Mm, right? It's a whole series of discourses between himself and his disciples or students or whatever. But that's the [00:26:00] core of it, right?

I mean, not to be cliche, spiritually cliche, but we are all interconnected in all one. So everyone is us and we are everyone. Right? To give a little more modern example, what came to mind when you were just giving that example was I just saw a clip, like a short of Woody Harrelson being on Joe Rogan recently.

No, but can't wait to hear about it All. The clip was basically, yeah, it's good. And, and it's, the clip is Woody Harrelson basically talking about how he, uh, just saw some older guy and immediately becomes aware of. Thoughts? I would say a part of him telling him that, trying to convince him immediately that guy's an asshole, just based on absolutely nothing, you know?

And he said something about, you know, in his case it's usually like that, that guy's a little more handsome than me, or something like that. So being aware enough of that and not buying into it, which I would say, again, in multiplicity, if FS [00:27:00] terms mean he be, he was able to recognize that as mm-hmm. A thought.

Mm-hmm. Or a part that's not him. Unblend from it just enough to be able to then go towards the guy and say to him, Hey, how you doing? And as soon as the guy's face lit up right, and, and showed an intent to engage IE this is not an asshole. A hundred percent. That, that whole, that whole conception. Just, just, well let, let's just 

Sam: unpack that right now.

I mean, I hope to Christ that not one of us on this discussion right now. Would, would expect anyone to think that they're above this modality? I mean, how many times during the everyday course of your life do you find yourself in a scenario where you're in a group of people or in an environment where there's multiple people or just one other person and your entire sense of self confidence is absolutely based off of and beholden to.[00:28:00] 

The experience of whether, what yourselves are telling you, am I smarter than this person? Am I better looking than this person? Am I more talented than this person? Yeah. You know what I mean? And it absolutely affects the way that you bring yourself, you know? And, and, and, yes. And you're almost fearful.

That if you feel that that person is better than you, smarter than you, better looking than you, more talented than you in any way or whatever you're afraid of that insecurity. 'cause you know it will affect your flow. You know, it will, it will fuck you up. You know, and, and there's so many ways to flip it.

Mike: I mean, you just, you literally just gave the example of Woody Harrelson, like, you know, pausing, being self-aware and flipping it. And when I heard Sam saying that, what I heard was, oh my God, like of course we have a The tendency to. Do that. That is a reflex. That is a reactive. On less controlled way of interpreting a situation.

And but while I was hearing him explain, I'm thinking to myself, wait, there's nothing but opportunity in that. Right? Right. Like, if [00:29:00] I'm in a room with somebody who's smarter than me, am I reacting to these things as insecurities or am I reacting to them as opportunities to actually improve myself?

To have a conversation with someone who may know something that I don't know and learn from it and leave that environment better off than I walked into it. It is so amazing and what I liked about what Chris said was that, or Woody Harrelson's thing, was that he actually didn't allow himself to purely react to it, but made, I don't know if his thing was, he made a conscious decision to like pause, engage.

And, and understand. 

Chris: Yeah. And I would say that example that he gave, again, I, I saw it out of context. It 

Mike: doesn't matter now. It's in this context. It's just a Glip, it's so, it's 

Sam: so, it's so relatable though. It's so relatable. Chris, I'm really curious, uh, without, without the vernacular of practices that are a little bit deeper into your work with clients, how do you, how, if you were just talking to, I mean, actually I'm interested in knowing.[00:30:00] 

From the perspective, let's switch perspectives here. Let's, let's bring in dad, Chris, you know what I mean? You have two young adult, uh, children and you know, I know that they love you and I know that they, they, they seek your leadership and your, uh, approval on most things, uh, at least to a certain degree, I'm sure.

but, uh, the point is, is like in that mode, how do you. How do you encourage them without telling them that you're doing so, to be aware of discretionary versus non-discretionary kind of, experience of self in, in this, in this mode of comparison or just how do you provide that leadership to them, in, in your surreptitious parenting kind of ways.

Okay. 

Chris: I feel like to give that a good answer, I want, can we bookmark it for a minute? Yeah. And I want to come back to where we just were. Mm-hmm. And I think this will kind of set the [00:31:00] stage, if I get it right for that question. So the Woody Harrelson thing, I would say likely his ability to make, to catch it and make that switch and lean into.

Who he really wanted to be, not what this part was Conditioning. Yeah. Telling him to be, or how to behave, or how to see this other person suggest that he's a guy who's aware enough and healed enough to be able to make that switch to unblend enough. Oh. Oh yeah. From that thought or that part on the fly.

Right. I could say that looking back from. Grade school threw probably a good portion into my career as a therapist. I was pretty damn entrenched in the comparing and despairing. 

Sam: Hmm, 

Chris: certainly in all the music [00:32:00] years, the early ones where we met, it's all I did internally without really having a, full enough awareness of that I was doing so from grade school long.

Never felt smart enough. And as far as musical ability, never felt good enough. So I constantly sought for evidence of that and constantly found it right. Yeah, of course. So it's, been on the inner journey a long time, longer than I've been a therapist, and that's made all the difference for me.

so, that that switch, that, uh, in that soundbite of Woody Harrelson to Joe Rogan makes it sound awfully easy. 

Mike: and we've kind of touched on some of that in, in previous conversations that Sam, if I and I have had with guests about, How much self-awareness it takes and, and how much development and growth it takes to be able to do that.

Not to mention do it in practically real time as opposed to reflecting on it and recognizing a missed opportunities to actually like [00:33:00] maximize that opportunity real time. It's masterful. It's masterful. Exceptional. Yeah. But certainly 

Sam: aspirational. Yeah, 

Chris: exactly. 

Sam: The cadence by which he performed that feat, is it implies master, master level.

Um, and, you know, think about now how infrequently you observe that, that level of discernment and instant kind of react ability to, That elevated level of self-awareness. Think about how infrequently you see that in adult people that you deal with on a daily basis. You know what I mean?

That's true and that's true. That's a little depressing. Now going back to what you were just mentioning about grade school, I mean right. Our entire core curricular system for public education in our country is 100% based on compare and despair. I mean, and that's just how our lazy, old, antiquated system weeds out the.

The, uh, what they considered deemed they deemed to be the, uh, the viable [00:34:00] higher performers and leave behind the mass majority. You know, like Absolutely. Yeah. And 

Chris: I would say it's also a symptom or reflection of just dominant mainstream cultural values. Mm-hmm. That prize conformity. Right, 

Mike: right.

So, so I know we, we bookmarked it for a second, but I would imagine that, um. Shepherding two young women through the trials and tribulations of adolescents, is ripe for this kind of thing. So what was your approach like to getting them through that healthily? No, sorry, Sam. No, 

Sam: no.

I just want to, I want to add to that question and because our listeners don't know that. Both of these, both of these young women are also second generation, uh, or, well, I'm sorry, they're both, uh, English as a second language, new Americans that you adopted from overseas. There was just, a plethora of Oh yeah.

Plus cultural assimilation. Yeah. Et [00:35:00] cetera. Yeah. So how do you provide this, this type of leadership to those vulnerable souls who are trying to make their way and assimilate and feel a sense of value in our society and come out the other end healthy. Right. 

Chris: Yeah. Andel, could I get away with saying I have no idea, and just leave it there?

Sam: Hundred percent brother? Yeah. Would not blame you. Yeah. '

Chris: cause there is truth to that though. Yeah, of 

Sam: course. 

Chris: Like I'm really still figuring it out. 

Sam: Of course. That actually, that literally chokes me up a little bit. 

Chris: Yeah, it's true though. Totally true. Right? 

Sam: I love that trans, I love that transparency. That's awesome.

Chris: Here's, here's one thing that's maybe, um, part of it, right, is one thing I learned before we were able to bring them home after a three year grueling journey. Of trying to do so was when I spoke, I had a couple of, sessions or meetings with like international adoption experts that are basically in my field or similar fields, [00:36:00] and one of them told me, when you adopt older children in particular and from other cultures or countries, you should expect that developmentally they basically start over.

Right. Wow. And intellectually, I thought, yeah, okay, that makes sense. But I didn't really give it much more thought, and it really wasn't until years into it of bringing them home and they were roughly eight and nine that more so with one of my daughters than the other. I look at it now and I'm like, that's exactly on point.

And I could think back to even when we were there in India on our second trip. Where we were on hold in deli for 14 days for paperwork bullshit. Um, where there were instances of my younger daughter inexplicably shutting down into like a, [00:37:00] like a, a freeze state. And Melissa was so good at just instinctually knowing to just pick her up and rock her like a baby.

Again, we were so burned out and exhausted at that time. What I'm talking about here was not even occurring to me then. Right. But that was an example in addition to many, many other examples over the years of how more in her case, and I think for reasons based on what we know about history, are understandable for her more so than, than her other daughter that she really did have to developmentally start over.

Right. So even though they're 20 and 21 now. Developmentally emotionally, in some ways they're much younger. Right. Which is part of why it made No, by 

Sam: comparison to what? 

Chris: To, yeah. Right. Well, Exactly. Yeah. At least our culture standard norms and milestones. Right? 

Sam: Yeah. Well, the interesting, the interesting thing is, [00:38:00] is that, with minimal exposure to them as they've grown into young adulthood, um.

You know, I can say that both of them, are unique, sentient, brilliant, uh, uh, and just have so much to offer as individuals, uh, in any context. Uh, and, and I. Yeah, it, it, it, what breaks my heart, what breaks my heart is reducing either one of them to the very comparisons to even fucking categorize, you know what I mean?

Like, it's just evil. That is evil. 

Mike: I would, I was just wondering how someone like you are, Chris, you're exceptional in more ways than one, but in this particular case, as it relates to being trained. On this being a professional. Yeah. So I'm always curious to know how someone who has that knowledge, that background, that daily practice of utilizing it professionally ends up applying it or not applying it.

Yeah. [00:39:00] In their personal life and into the role of being a parent. Yeah. Yeah. 

Chris: Well, you know, even with a good amount of knowledge, I still have stumbled through it. Yeah, sure. Right. But, but what's been most helpful is probably. Um, the developmental education in my early formal education of this and education and attachment, and how our understanding of attachment has fleshed out over the years in line with my becoming a parent of two kids that, like all adopted kids have attachment wounds.

Right. So that's been helpful just to put it in kind of two, you know, bullet points there, those two things. Developmental psychology, understanding and detachment. Uh, but even with that, when you're so inside of it, 

Sam: yeah, yeah. You're missing a lot. 

Chris: You know, you, you're still missing a lot. That's why I said at the beginning, still figuring it out.

Still trying to right some wrongs. Mm-hmm. You know? but. I guess one of the thing I feel moved to say [00:40:00] here is that Melissa, I both found ourselves early on when other people would be complimentary of the girls for various things. Uh, it would just sort of come out of her mouths of like, they came this way, you know?

And it's really true. JTI gets that a lot, you know, for how just bubbly and optimistic and, hopeful and. And, how much vitality she has. Right. And we're always just like, she literally came this way. We can show you pictures of her from before they ever met us. Mm-hmm. You can see that in her.

Right. So it's the whole spectrum of, of what helps or hurts in those very, very early years. Mm-hmm. Of course. Sets the stage. 

Sam: Yeah. I think, I'm gonna be speaking the obvious here, but you know. Young kids that are subjected to the level of self resourcing, as in this case of, of them, you know, being bounced around from foster home environment to, uh, institutional [00:41:00] environment, whatever.

I mean, you, you, you either completely shut down and fail entirely. Or you develop this incredibly robust, uh, ability to write your own inner narrative and to be resourceful and to, you know, so yeah. I remember meeting Joie when you guys first got her, and I remember, that she just seemed like this, this mystical being that lived outside of the realms or con confines of anyone's understanding of normal or culture or whatever.

She was just like a floater. And it was, delightful. And it was refreshing and it was, to me, it, it, it was an exposure to potential. 

Mike: Absolutely. 

Sam: You know, like, you know. Yeah, 

Mike: man. Yeah. Yeah. Can I shift us a little bit for a second? I wanna go back to something that both of you guys have touched on, so I'll shut up and ask you both to re contribute to it if there's some more fruit left on this branch.

I don't know if there is, so we'll see where it goes, but. When we talked a little bit [00:42:00] earlier about kind of rerouting some of the gravitation to the despair when comparing versus, rerouting it to something, the mindset, to something more constructive. Chris, you talked more about, uh, forgive me if I'm mis paraphrasing, but what I heard is more root causes kind of stuff.

And then Sam shared some of, when you were working on things, getting what I heard as it reminded me of Mountain versus Molehill type stuff, where you're getting these more bite-size, implementable, you know, practices Right. To kind of reshift the mindset a little bit. And if there's anything left on that branch, I'd love to hear.

For fear of cheapening it, what feels like tips and tricks So that if somebody's listening to this, like gaining from both Sam's experience with getting very practical, daily type, exercises or, or thoughts to, reroute the despair towards something constructive. [00:43:00] And then some of the stuff that.

You find Chris helpful in, in doing the deeper work with your clients to achieve the same kind of thing, you know, with the same type of goal in mind. Is there anything left in there to talk about, 

Chris: you know, any kind of tips and tricks would more, would more come about spontaneously? Intuitively in, in the course of working with someone based on how I know them, but you know, my forte is really more.

More the, the, the deeper and bigger picture on it. So in addition to how I described earlier about, let's find the parts of a person that are driving those train and discover what they're trying, how they're trying to help the person, what they're afraid would happen if they didn't do that.

That's where if we get good answers to that and earn the trust of those parts of ourselves, that's when we get to what are they protecting. So that's where there's deeper, you can look at it as attachment wounds or just [00:44:00] emotional burdens of feeling inferior. Inadequate, lots of shame is usually always the case, right?

I mean, as Brene Brown made it famous by saying, we all have it, it's just a matter of how much, right? Everything in our culture from being spanked out of the womb, into existence, right? Is, is shame producing and shame magnifying. So it's always in there. So it's really, it's getting to heal what's at the root, right.

And there's various ways to do that. I have this way that I've cultivated through IFS and parts work, and then with bringing in higher sources to hold space and often do much more as long as a person is open to that. And that's where then those, the parts just to keep in that, in that model idea, I.

Then the protective parts that are driving the train of the need to see what everyone else is doing. So we can be okay, they can relax, right. They can [00:45:00] relax and maybe, and eventually retire those roles completely. 

Sam: And I, and I want to, and I wanna point this out, Mike, and you and I have kind of talked about this in the past too, uh, in with relation to, other maxims that we've, discussed, but.

Like, I'm married to a woman who just kind of showed up like with some elevated EQ and like this really seemingly, uh, intuitive ability to balance these kinds of things that we're talking about has this like, this uncanny, elevated level of self-awareness and is not beholden to any sort of shame that's visible, at least from the outside.

Uh. And, it literally bewilders me sometimes, like when I, I look at her ethos and that of her twin brother, and I'm like, what, what Angel shot you out? Like I just don't, I just don't get like, how you, without like, the arduous work that I've undergone, you know, with paid professional help or [00:46:00] whatever.

Like, I don't understand how you just arrived like this. You know? It's like, what if I may, what would she say if she were listening to you say that? I'm not even sure that she has a perspective about it, Chris. Yeah. If I'm, you know, if, if I'm honest, I'm not sure how much she would have to say about that other than like, you know.

Yeah. 

Chris: so I'll just like, from a therapeutic perspective in general, if anyone told me that about someone else, my baseline would be to say, or to, or to believe it, likely, probable that they had good enough parenting. As, uh, Wincott made that famous, that statement, famous, good enough, mothering, good enough parenting, enough stability and consistency and love so that her set point, attachment wise is set to secure.

And with what I know now from my work in the last couple of years, I would say she also is, is not likely loaded up epigenetically with a lot of generational, ancestral [00:47:00] wounding and baggage. 

Sam: I think that that's huge and that's gotta be a huge part of it. So I, you know, we're getting to that point where we've been on for a while and I kind of want to start to wrap this up, but I'd like to, I'd like to mention lastly, and, and it's funny because I find myself wrapping up most of our, conversations this way, and I'm okay with that.

It's kind of my brand I guess now. But, uh, yesterday I was in a thoughtful conversation with a client while we were driving around looking at houses all day. And she works, in and around, uh, the sciences. I'll just leave it at that. And so we were kind of discussing, you know, current paradigm, the condition of, of the world, uh, socially and as a species.

we were talking about animal species. We were talking about, uh, shared intelligence and shared, and whether or not we are, we are in a shared space with animals. I very much believe we are all living things. And, um, but most importantly, we were talking about. we were trying, I think in order to feel like we had some sort of wrap on our conversation, we were trying to [00:48:00] like, summarize like what do we need to do?

What needs to happen? Like, in order for us to survive, uh, without, creating or causing our own demise as a species, you know? And, the simple answer is, is to, uh, is to realize and allow in. An experience of singularity or an experience of shared space, uh, and to stop comparing.

And that was like, that literally came up in our conversation was like literally just to stop, to stop categorizing and comparing ourselves among each other, among other living things and sort of in terms of pecking order or importance or whatever, and just to be. And to allow, and this is that, going back to that Brene Brown, kind of to be, to be vulnerable is to be available, is to be, uh, a conduit, is to be present, is to be empowered, is to be everything, is to be the most powerful self you can be.

And to turn to, to turn to a, [00:49:00] uh, to, to love, to turn to, and I hate, I hate, I know I always come down to that word, but I love, I. I have to say, I have to give that word credit. 'cause that's the vibration. That's God, that's the source. That's the energy. The energy is that. And then nothing more.

That's the Christ consciousness. You know what I mean? And if we're gonna allow that Christ experience for those people who are Christians and believe in that paradigm shift of whatever the second coming, or whatever you want to call it. Like we have to consciously choose love. And if you're consciously choosing love, you're not comparing.

You're not choosing to spare, you're not choosing competition. You're choosing cooperation. You're choosing sharing, and you're choosing softer things. You're choosing forgiveness. You're choosing healing, you know? 

Mike: Yeah, yeah. And for fear of bringing this in a way that's, that sounds a lot different than that [00:50:00] because in, to me, they're, they're.

Different sides of the same coin because I'm down with all of that for sure. Something that we didn't really talk about that is part of the, the flip to not allowing Comparison being the theft of joy to be a negative is. Someone else's victory is not your loss. It's not a zero sum game percent.

Yeah, right. A hundred percent. It's like the pie does not have a limited size and a piece of it that is occupied by here is not removing it from your possibility, from your opportunity, from your growth, from your happiness, et cetera. Right? Yeah. and a lot of. While I was listening to you just now, Sam, it was reminding me that, to me, part of, again, a different side, but of the same coin to that is this mindset that, someone else's win is not your loss.



Mike: and that, and we've talked about this in other conversations, that, [00:51:00] um, not seeing it that way and participating in other people's. Gains growth and victories can also feed back into, a more joyful experience for you and lead to more positive outcomes for you as well. A hundred percent.

And it just seems so obvious. And to me, those, those two, those two things go hand in hand. And, and they just feel like, to me that one is one way of looking at it, one is another way of looking at it, but they both lead to. A similar mindset in a similar, um, outcome. 

Sam: It seems obvious, Mike and I agree.

It seems obvious, especially when we are taking the time and bringing intention to really looking closely at these options for experience that we have in, in life. But it's not obvious when we are in that lower vibrational modality where we are just complacently walking through life and find, and, and finding ourselves enslaved by.

Vibration or, or a level of, uh, consciousness that, that we can, we, that we just [00:52:00] some 

Mike: un some, some unhealthier vibration. Yeah. Just get off that one onto another one, which seems like a great segue over into yielding to Chris for a minute, but it sounds like you want to bring something into that.

Mm-hmm. Well, 

Chris: yeah. I mean, you're kind of leading it, you're leading this horse to the water there. Mm-hmm. Unconsciousness. I think that encapsulates a lot of what is being talked about right here. The idea that when the tide comes in, all boats rise. Yeah. Is, is it's a kind of, um, maxim, I guess. 

Mike: I love it an 

Chris: adage that that is one of many, that's a good litmus test in a way for, um, where.

Where people are in terms of their own level of consciousness, right? And consciousness can be defined many ways. I don't really have a perfect definition for it, but, maybe awareness plus intuition. Plus awakening, you know, degree of awakening. [00:53:00] Yeah. Some combination thereof.

But you know, if you say, when the tide comes in, all s rise to someone who is, is vibrating on a level of fear or apathy of desire, which is addiction.

They're not likely to give you a look or say something that indicates that they're with that. Right. Yeah. Or that it wouldn't be a threat to agree with that or something. Right? A hundred percent. So it's a good litmus test. Yeah. So that's where I think in the biggest picture right to, to. Escape the matrix of comparing and despairing of competition, you know, unhealthy competition mm-hmm.

To a degree that lands us in a shit place. It's about doing whatever possible in the micro and the macro to be raising our own level of consciousness. And there's various ways to do [00:54:00] that. Doing lean end of work is one good way, right. Go within or go without. Um, which my mentor used to tell me back early, early on, it used to aggravate me and I never understood why until I did.

Yeah, absolutely. 

Sam: No, absolutely. And I appreciate you saying that because I feel like that kind of language does aggravate people who don't, who aren't ready to hear that. Who aren't ready to receive that. Yeah. and I think what's aggravating for most people is that they think to themselves, it can't just be as simple as that.

And the answer is, it is right. 

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Simplicity, patience, compassion. Like the, the doubt De Jane. That's right. Todd. Right. Absolutely. All of this is simple, but not easy. Right. Exactly. 

Mike: thank you so much for making the time to do this with us, to have this conversation. 

Chris: My pleasure. I love what you guys are doing.

You're a good, uh, sure. Abbott and Costello, maybe I must say. I don't know.

[00:55:00] Hey, it's Sam and Mike, and we appreciate you coming on this journey with us today. We hope that if you enjoyed it, you'll tell a friend, or better yet, share a link to this podcast and let your community know directly how it impacted you. That would really help us reach more listeners just like yourself.

Thanks again for listening today. Feel free to email us at info@maximeqpodcast.com and share some favorite maxims, adages cliches that maybe we should consider for future episodes or perhaps just leave a kind message, maybe some feedback. Till next time, make it a great day.