Welcome the Noise, It Might Carry the Signal

We’ve all heard the advice: tune out the noise. But what if that noise is where the valuable signal lives? In this episode, Sam, Lysa, and I dive into the power of paying attention to what may be tempting to ignore. Perhaps we’re actually being invited to listen more closely and observe with greater discernment—because the more “noise” we welcome in, the more opportunity we create to connect, learn, and grow.

Thanks for listening,
Mike

Transcript

​[00:00:00] 

Welcome to Maxim EQ, where we explore the common sensical through individual interpretation at a time when the profound is too often reduced to cheap memes and goofy bumper stickers, we head in the opposite direction, digging deeper to examine the commonalities and differences in our perceptions around a particular adage.

In each episode, we'll discuss our guest take on a thought provoking maxim, designed to promote self-reflection and personal growth for us. But hopefully for you as well. Today's guest is another old friend to both Mike and I. She's a resident of Brattleboro of Vermont, where she observes a lifestyle of caretaking and service to so many.

Her relationship with the woods near the land she lives on is most definitely a spiritual covenant. And I hope she'll share a little bit about that today, Lysa was educated at a graduate level, both in fine arts and psychology, and has a private [00:01:00] practice providing counseling to both groups and individuals under the moniker Big Heart Practice.

We couldn't be more grateful to her for sharing some time with us today to have a discussion about this very poignant maxim. Welcome the noise. It might carry the signal. I anticipate this conversation will be quite provocative and enlightening only because I know how deeply thoughtful and brilliant our guest is.

Join us and listen in. Now Maxim EQ with Sam Wahl and me, Mike Baumer 

Sam: right on another episode of Maxim EQ. This is exciting, man. So Mike. I'm [00:02:00] not sure what

Mike: Sam,

Sam: been having so far, but you're, everything's about to get better because today we have Lisa Mosca with us. 

Mike: whoop.

whoop. 

Sam: she is a rad person and, I have known her almost my entire adult life.

Lysa: Woo.

Sam: remember not knowing.

Lysa: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

Sam: Yeah. Literally, like, I don't know if I have adult memory prior to her. So, anyways, um, that being said, Lisa is a,beautiful human being. She's a grandmother and a mom. she's a, certified and licensed counselor, uh, with a private practice that I'm gonna let her tell you more about later.

big heart practice, um, dot com. Um, anyways, um, I know right already with the promotion, but, we are here to discuss a maxim that Lisa

Lysa: Yes.

Sam: uh, when presented

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: maxims. Um. [00:03:00] I believe it's, I know I'm gonna mess this up 'cause I always mess these things up. Welcome the noise. It might carry the signal

Lysa: Beautiful.

Sam: the maxim

Mike: You nailed it.

Sam: Nice

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: Um, at any rate, that's, that's what we're here to pull apart today and just kind of see where it leads us and, and uh, you know, I'm gonna stop talking now. 

Mike: Hi Lisa, and welcome to Maxim

Lysa: Hi, Mike. Hi, Sam. It's great to be here. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for the invitation. This is amazing.

Sam: for, thanks for accepting.

Yeah, so if you don't mind providing a short answer for what it was about this particular maxim that you, you chose it from the short list that we sent you.

Lysa: Oh yeah. You know, when you sent me the three choices, this one really hit me and it hit me in a way where. At first I didn't, I didn't quite understand it. It was like my brain had to adjust, my body had to adjust, and I was drawn to that. And then I was really drawn to, [00:04:00] um. When I think about having a conversation, it's what's the between this group of people?

So the three of us having a conversation. And there was something about that maxim that I felt like this could be a really rich conversation between the three of us. Um, and knowing just about both of you in terms of sound and music and um, noise like that, that really struck me. 

Mike: Was there a particular example that into mind after it resonated enough with you for you to kind of hone in on it? what I'm trying to ask is, did it stay in the abstract or did you go right to a relevant example.

Lysa: I went right to this example and, um, depends on I'm, I'm really, I'm really connected to the woods and the, the land around where I live and I walk every day, um, in this certain [00:05:00] area. And when spring comes, you know, it's spring because there is this cacophony of tree frogs or pees and they're about an inch and a half, like their tiny little beings and the sound that they make, these male tree frogs.

So loud, so noisy and so frenetic. And it's, it's become this like, welcome, like it's spring. It's spring. And then I was like just, just really taking in that noise. And when you kind of sit with that noise for a while, it starts to like shift My ability, my capacity to tune into the sound. And I learned this really cool thing about these little tree frogs.

It's so loud, but some of the male tree frogs that are, that are, it's a mating call and they're made trying to call out to these female tree frogs. But some of the, the male frogs don't [00:06:00] have the same level of noise as. The male frogs that are really calling these other female frogs. So they, they huddle up next to each other.

The ones that are maybe like, maybe not as skilled as making the noise. And I thought that was so interesting. Like that kind of like how they know to huddle up next to the ones that can make that sound and that signal. And so that's where I went with that.

Sam: They're, they're

Mike: frog coattails

Sam: borrow,

Mike: frog.

Sam: borrowing some

Lysa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 

Sam: So let me just, I'll

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: you know, looking at, at Big Heart practice.com and, some of the 

Lysa: Mm-hmm. 

Sam: offerings on the website. there's, language that is, that for me, experienced as being very kind of, um, unique and bespoke to your practice

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and, and your, uh, philosophy.

And there's a lot of language about, about, um, being.

Lysa: [00:07:00] Mm-hmm.

Sam: Uh, in modes or being things and, and embodiment And that being kind of part of the practice for group sessions. And I just, can you talk a little bit about that? Because I feel like that's somehow relevant

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: the maxim that we're

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: today.

Lysa: I mean, I think what I'm really drawn to and I'm oriented towards and I think all the teachers that I love, is that one of, one of my beliefs, one of our greatest resources is our capacity for attention. And there's something really magical to me when you bring a group of people together or a conversation like this and the alchemy of what happens with that group of people.

You know, it can't be planned. And there's something about the, the noise. When I think about this maxim, the noise and the signal of like, we're coming together. There's this energy of, of beings coming together like we are. And even if we know each [00:08:00] other, there's something we kind of have to orient and reorient to the space, um, in that way.

And. Be in that sense of like distilling the noise and the signal or the chatter, you know, and and being able to hear and to listen.

Sam: Yeah. So

Mike: so can I go back to. 

Sam: Yeah. So

Mike: so can I go back to. I don't know what this says about me, but the frog

example. Um, 

Sam: Yeah. So

Mike: so can I go back to. I don't know what this says about me, but the frog

Lysa: Yeah,

Mike: example. Um, because I'd like to

Lysa: yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Sam: Well, you're

Mike: Uh, maybe not all the way through, but Yeah.

Sam: You're

Mike: Uh,

Sam: to them meet, you're,

Mike: right, right, right. Well, well, it

Sam: to the,

Mike: mating

Lysa: call. Right, right, right.

Mike: their attempt

Sam: it's the

Mike: successfully,

Lysa: Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: dude.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

Lysa: It's like a call to prayer.

Mike: Okay. [00:09:00] Yeah. Well, that's actually gonna

Lysa: Yeah,

Mike: bit

Lysa: yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mike: to what I'd like to

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: from my question, which is let's, can we see that all the way through, like in, in this case, if that is the

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: in this maxim, the first half of it, what is, or what was your signal takeaway?

was it something as. general as it's spring, right? so to me it's like that's the first

Lysa: Right, right, right,

Mike: half? That's the noise. What was the signal that you

Lysa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike: of it? And maybe it's not a

Lysa: Yeah. It's definitely not a single thing. I think it's like, you know, in this, this, And I mean, I said called a prayer in a sense. It is called a prayer. Like it's hearing, it's hearing, seeing, smelling like it's this sensory experience of spring happening.

And, um, and a relief that winter is, winter this year felt really intense and long, but that, that's simmering down. And so this,

Mike: [00:10:00] Hmm.

Lysa: call is so loud and um.

It kind of re, and I'm gonna make this bridge. I don't know if you, you all will connect with this, but years ago, and it's unforgettable to me, it's in the same realm for me where I was in Morocco and I heard the call to prayer, and if you've ever been anywhere where, um, in Islam there's a call to prayer five times a day.

And it's, it's broadcast over this loudspeaker and it is the most like. Profound sound like it cuts through the noise or maybe what we, what I might call noise and it points to, and signals like this, whatever. This is almost like the ineffable, so there's like this taking in of that experience.

Everything's kind of shaky and then there's like a cut through. Yeah.

Sam: it's like an indicator that it's

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: it's [00:11:00] time to share in

Lysa: Yeah. Yep.

Sam: it's

Lysa: Yep.

Sam: everyone to, to, to make space In fact, this, this maxim for me, kind of immediately, um, me into a space of thinking about a broader context and thinking about. Kind of our reaction to the political

Lysa: Yes. Yes. Yep.

Sam: disruptive

Lysa: Yep.

Sam: of politics and, war and, uh, all of those kinds of things. And, and for me, it spoke to me directly about finding balance, around the issue of. Allowing that noise in as opposed to blocking it out as opposed to just putting my head in the sand as they say. allowing enough of that noise in so that I can achieve discernment Of signals that are gonna reach [00:12:00] me for ways that I can, contribute and or improve myself the context of all of that. You know what I mean? Looking for positive signals and as opposed to of being avoidant

Lysa: Right, Right. 

Sam: Altogether.

I hear that kind of as like, you know, the noise is all of the external input, but then the signal really becomes your interpretation of it and what it triggers you or what inspires you or what it prompts you to do, or how it prompts you

Lysa: Does that make sense?

Mike: sense?

Sam: Hmm.

Mike: That there isn't necessarily, the signal isn't contained within the noise.

The signal becomes the result of your interpretation of the noise.

Sam: What I'm trying to speak to here specifically is like, bolstering one skill to read between the lines as it were to hear opportunity, to hear greater understanding, know, in the white noise of human discourse, you know what I mean?

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: And that's kind of where it

Lysa: I also heard, Sam, with [00:13:00] your description, I was hearing like almost like a filter, like we have to have a capacity for filtering to discern. So I was, I was hearing that and when I think about, you know, the politics or the, the polarity of our time. The noise and I also don't wanna hold noise as like a negative thing either.

' cause I think like, you know, I think it can kind of go in that direction. But I was thinking about this like the, I feel like we live in such a soundbite culture that really perpetuates like kind of this kind of noisiness and um.

Challenges around our attention to discern, to filter.

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Lysa: So that signaling, I really love that. I don't know, there's something about this maxim and I'm that I'm holding around, like it points towards, it's not exactly like of this or that, but it kind of signals, it [00:14:00] points towards.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: Do you guys, uh, this might take us in a totally different, different direction, but, And then also each one of us having varying degrees of parenting experience. There might be some relevance there

Sam: there 

Mike: Do you guys, this might take us in a totally different, different direction, but, each one of us having varying degrees of parenting experience. There might be some relevance there

Sam: there

Mike: 'cause you brought up environment in the Times, you know this particular era.

Sam: correct.

Mike: I think it's not going out on too much of a limb to say that the, the frequency the quantity of that input that we might just call noise for now, 

Sam: know,

Mike: is significantly higher than it was when we were growing up,

so do you think that there's some, even if it's a lagging. skill development. Do you think that just [00:15:00] like anthropologically, we might be developing a new way to navigate our way through all that noise, which kind of comes back to.

Sam: to,

Mike: What the signal actually is and what we had to navigate 10 or 15 or 30 years ago is probably totally different either than what we have to navigate now 'cause we're still here.

Sam: Mm. and 

Mike: how people are, who are more in their developmental stages are getting through that change in

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: Anything there that you guys can shed some wisdom on?

Sam: I, if I

Lysa: Sure, go ahead.

Sam: I, I made a note to myself a second ago because you know what, Mike, that's a perfect segue, I feel like what we're filtering or what we're using as a filter might be just as relevant here to, What we're receiving on the other end of filter. So if we're filtering with ego, fear, insecurity, we're gonna get of that noise. probably something that's not as [00:16:00] useful to us.

Mike: Mm.

Sam: if we're using, healthier criteria as our

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and open and on the path to hearing signals of, Constructive, useful and or, empowering, messaging, then we can make that choice as well. We're choosing our

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: you know what I mean? And

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: know that that just took this way into the esoteric, but I feel like.

Lysa: Uhhuh. Mm-hmm.

that we, that we're all kind of sharing like a real time paradigm. that is specific to our shared experience. Yeah,

I'm also a young grandmother. I'm a grandmother. I'm relatively young generationally. Um, and I also think about young when I watch my grandchildren who are between the ages of seven and 14 right now, and then I think about my child, I think about my childhood, all these things and what you pointed to Mike around kind of what we.

We're probably [00:17:00] not growing up around as much, you know, just the stimulus, the, like bombardment or what feels like a bombardment, um, and how that literally changes your brain. So my communication, my relationship with, with younger people, you know, I think I, I used to think like. There's something I'm sort of fighting against in the relationship.

Like we need to change something about them so that I could be in relationship. But I'm kind of seeing that a little differently, where like I'm learning a new language. They're, they're literally developing differently. They're at a different speed and pace that I am. Um, and I'm just aware of like this kind of, so I'm curious about that.

Like how they're distilling, filtering. Noise and signal, which is very different. Yeah.

Mike: I was listening to both of you guys and I don't know the answer to this question, but you're in the process of maybe, being at a vantage point to experience it and witness it [00:18:00] And maybe there's just some amount of latency between this period

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: one.

But is it contributing to more anxiety or is it developing a different type of filter that we don't

Lysa: Yeah. 

Mike: roll

Lysa: right.

Mike: little bit better, or to do a better job at discerning the signal from the rest of the noise, and maybe that takes a generation to catch up.

Right. I don't know, but I hear so much talk about how kids are so resilient and this, that, and the other thing.That I kind of put this into that same bucket where is if they're really resilient during those developmental years, does that also suggest that they'll do a good job at evolving that filter

to this different level of bombardment, you know, that you're talking

Lysa: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: of all that input?

I, I don't know.

Sam: The beautiful thing about generational, uh, engagement is that, we are a pre. Internet,

Lysa: generation. And now our collective noise includes that of [00:19:00] social media, that of the compare and despair of the, the internet 

Sam: and

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: variety or today's brand of politics, 

Where, you know. So now we're the first generation to kind of begin to, to filter through that noise. we stay engaged with youth who have only known that variety of noise since birth, you know, it'll be interesting to see how we,

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: evolve together in that, and then to see how they carry it, and to see like what you just pointed out, Mike, like what ends up trending with regard to our reaction in terms of our filters, like how kind of stuff. You know what I mean?

But I,

Mike: I

often 

Lysa: Yeah.

Mike: do we end up having to sacrifice a generation or a half a generation to the newness of it and the anxiety that it can cause to get to the next half generation? That has developed ways to, better equipped at, at dealing with it. I don't know, you know, cause I've seen a lot of anxiety in [00:20:00] the half generation where a lot of my peers or friends, have I. Kids that are between 13 and 18, that I feel like, we didn't have to navigate, we had our own issues, you know, that kind of thing. And so I just wonder if they become the ones that had to absorb, the greatest initial effect of that difference in what they, had to deal with as adolescents.

I

Lysa: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mike: of, 

Sam: and I, I wonder about that, Mike, because I wonder about, when I think about. My daughter's generation, or more specifically my grandchildren, like they were born into an attention economy. Like the economy's completely based on their attention from birth on without, um, like there's zero consent, there's zero awareness, right?

mm.

Lysa: Not that. And so I think about that and I think about my childhood I still know a difference. Not good or bad, but I [00:21:00] know a difference between that experience. I know the difference or the experience in my body, or my felt sense in the world of not being sold to all the time. It's not that, you know, we live in a culture where that's like so much of our, um, our way, but that was very different and I think about that.

Like I didn't go into a store unless it was like. Occasionally to buy school clothes. Like I didn't see anything it, so it's really interesting. And that has to do with like class, it has to do with where I grew up and all that stuff, but I didn't have things coming at me

Mike: Yeah,

Lysa: to the Yeah. Right, right, right.

Mike: a better term. it's almost like there are no boundaries 'cause it's just on all the

Lysa: Yeah.

Mike: 100% of

Lysa: time. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: I mean

Lysa: Yeah. 

Sam: Lysa spends more time with children of school age than anybody currently than anybody [00:22:00] else on this screen. Talk about that, Lisa, talk about like, how do you, kind of attention

Lysa: Yeah.

Yeah,

It's so interesting because I feel this like kind of longing, which is probably like a generational thing. I feel like an older person in this way, but this longing, you know, when I was a child I would, my parents would kind of classic thing, they'd send me outside, you can't come back until it's time to eat kind of thing, right?

And then I'm out in the neighborhood, I'm playing, I'm in the woods, I'm doing things, I'm like, you know, I'm in world, my. My universe was other kids. We were figuring things out together. My grandchildren, because of the level of screens and access to screens, and also because of a lot of other things that have shifted around parenting and fear, their willingness.

And I live in Vermont, which is, you know, you would assume like kids are just running around in the woods, [00:23:00] but. What's interesting to me is like I will be with them. I am always trying to lure them into the woods. I'm always trying to lure them into these spaces that are, um, I think harder to access when you have screens, um, vying for your attention because the intimacy of the woods is very different.

It's a very different environment.

Sam: percent.

Lysa: Yeah.

mm-hmm.

Mike: very tuned into the whole, when this pendulum swings too

Lysa: Yeah. 

​Mm-hmm.

Mike: back. And so we're starting to see some of that in terms of

Lysa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike: and phone restrictions and limitations in schools.

And you're in Vermont, so. In my mind, I like to think that maybe some of that is starting

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: and then it would be affecting your grandkids. Is there any of that happening right now? Because I hear you taking the responsibility of, maybe pulling it back a little bit in your role.

Lysa: Right?

Mike: do you see any greater community support [00:24:00] coming along with you

Lysa: Oh, definitely. Definitely. There's, yeah. Yeah,

Mike: just mean like your

Lysa: yeah,

Mike: is it

Lysa: yeah.

Mike: have,

Lysa: Yeah.

Mike: to starting to

Lysa: Not

Mike: know, a little bit of swing

Lysa: well, I have grandchildren in a private school and grandchildren in a public school, in the public school setting. it is not oriented that way. And I think that meaning the thing about like being in the woods for example, or going outside and not having, 

Your imagination co-opted, I guess, in a way where you're with other, your other not at, not even with adults, you're with other children who have to just figure stuff out. So that's an interesting thing to me because I think curiosity and imagination live in those places.

Sam: Hmm.

That you're, taking that as a proactive measure to facilitate, to curate that for, uh, the grandkids. as a measure to lure them away from the predatory noise of other aspects of societal [00:25:00] noise like the internet or television or whatever. Um, you know, I mean, if you think about it. If you give any credit to our parents and their generation whatsoever, that's kind of what they were doing with us. You know what I mean? They were like, look, you're not gonna sit in front of the TV all day. You're gonna go out and play. You know what I

Lysa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: you

Lysa: Sure. Yeah. Yep,

Sam: you're not gonna sit

Lysa: yep. 

Sam: at,



Sam clone: pop culture 

Sam: magazines all day because

Lysa: Magazines.

Mike: the, the analogy isn't necessarily one to one, but

Lysa: Right, right.

Mike: was a tv, there were,

Lysa: Right,

Mike: of other

Lysa: right.

Sam: that stuff. I

Mike: Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: house growing up, parents monitored the amount of time we spent on the telephone, used it. My parents monitored whether or not we watched television. My parents monitored whose friends' houses we spent the night at, because

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: their households were plugged into shit that they didn't want us

Mike: Right.

Sam: to.

You know what I mean? So there was still a measure of as you just. Said, Lisa, you know, of not co-opting all, all time, 

Mike: And that's where, to me, the lack of boundaries, things comes into play, right? Because the screen is with [00:26:00] you at all times right

Lysa: Yeah.

Mike: I mean, it's like it's

Lysa: It's in your pocket,

Mike: our TVs weren't in our

Lysa: right?

Mike: you know, I couldn't

Lysa: Uhhuh?

Mike: TV

Lysa: Uhhuh,

Mike: was in line, you know, getting a Coke

So it's not. it's not new and it's not out of left field. I just think that it's, again, goes back to that the quantity and frequency thing,

Lysa: Yep.

Mike: may have been the biggest thing to have shifted. Um,

Lysa: Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, it is, it's a, it's a quantity thing because I don't think it's, I also see. I wanna say this too. I also see, um, amazing creativity coming with where we are now today. So there's, there's a both, and, and it seems like, I wonder about being a younger being and the noise and the signal, like how you're navigating that, what that's like to navigate it and, and it seems to require or need.

They're bigger people, [00:27:00] adults, to help kind of navigate that noise and signal.

Mike: Which is interesting 'cause there are, and I.

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: speak too much about things that I can't go deep on, but I feel like there are two

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: in this case. one would be to reference my favorite thing, Ericsson stages of development, right? Where you are at a certain place

Lysa: Uhhuh.

Mike: your life and, and you've been through

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: the, the adolescents or

Lysa: Mm.

Mike: your life are doing what? naturally to them in their particular stage of Ericsson stages of development. And then the second variable would be the

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: between what you experienced at their age and what they're experiencing.

Sam: experiencing.

Mike: so I just wonder when you are interacting with them like that, can you, you don't need to, maybe they just blend together, but can you make a distinction between. Removing the new variable and acknowledging that there is some sort of gap between where you are developmentally and where they are developmentally, and trying to meet [00:28:00] them more where they are, which means understanding 

Lysa: Right, right.

Sam: they're

Lysa: Right. 

Mike: Then 

add in, you know, what's different environmentally versus. the experience that you had at that particular

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: you know, 40 years ago

Lysa: yeah. If I'm understanding what you're saying, I think that. there's, there, the variables that are coming up for me was just reflecting on like my elders with me, kind of where they were generationally and where I was and how The difference though was that like at that time, culturally, whatever, the way that I.

Maybe it was in relationship with them is very different than say how kids are in relationship. And I'm generalizing how my grandchildren are in relationship with adults. so they're not as likely to go along with things that I may try to invite [00:29:00] them into. Because there's a, whereas with my grandfather, if my grandfather was asking me to do something or inviting me to do, I would, I would do it.

No questions asked. I mean, I adored him, but also there was a relationship of this like deep trust like, I'm gonna do, yeah, I'm gonna go do the thing. Whereas there's a lot more, I, I wanna say, like in my experience where I live with children and adults, there's a little more. They have a bigger say, um, in kind of how we navigate something, which is again, I think a shift in parenting and culture, which again, not good or bad, but it's a little bit of a di They're not gonna suspend their anything because I say, let's go into the woods and like.

See this thing or whatever. They're just like, well, no, wait. You know, we have to talk about it. They're like, we have to be convinced. You know, that there's this whole thing, which [00:30:00] is Feels a little, yeah. Yeah.

Mike: you said they've been being sold to perpetually since they came outta, you know, so they came outta the

Lysa: Right.

Mike: you're

Lysa: Yeah.

Mike: you've 

Lysa: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe in some ways they're like, we're, you know, we, we do this all the time. We do this. They call me Yaya. We do this all the time. Yaya like, you're gonna have to do better at selling us on this woods thing, you know?

Sam: what

Mike: Huh.

Sam: what you're, what you're trying to instill in 

Lysa: Mm-hmm. 

Sam: may be a

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: than, you know, than we're giving them credit for, uh, being aware of or discerning, but, you know, is that you're, you're, you are trying to, uh, foster. Curiosity you're

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: foster, um, play, 

And I love

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: you know, and I, because it's all you can

Lysa: Right, right,

Sam: I mean? And

Lysa: right, right.

Sam: each other for a really long timeand we both love your daughter Amber. And I consider her my child [00:31:00] in many respects. And you know, this goes back to a time when I remember you and I discussing, strategically. Verbally trusting everything that she said to us as a measure of instilling, a precedent that when she needed to be trusted, I. She would come to us because we exercised 

Lysa: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sam: You

Lysa: yeah. I do remember that. Yeah.

Sam: and I, I feel like that's the same thing. It's like we were using our adult intellect to, head it off at the pass 

we are anticipating an opportunity to 

Lysa: keep her safe in the, with limited abilities to, to influence her I feel like this is, you know, is. Age old.

Absolutely. Absolutely. ​

Mike: I have, um, and I wanna turn it back to both of you guys 

to me, and,

you know, and a lot of, a lot of this is about being hyper analytical, uh, to each word,

you know, in the phrase, [00:32:00] in the maximum, not taking it cheaply

, not I have, um, and I wanna turn it back to both of you guys because to me, a lot of this is about being hyper analytical, uh, to each word, you know, in the phrase, in the maximum, not taking it cheaply, not kind of

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: over and just hearing it at surface level. And given the fact that we went with Welcome, the Noise, it might contain the signal, right,

Lysa: Right, right.

Mike: when you, when you tend to,

Sam: Um,

Mike: I. to search the internet for signal and noise and that kinda thing, most of it is around, tune out the

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: to hear the signal. A lot of it is, ignore the noise to hear the signal.

What's interesting to me about this combination of words and it resonated with you and so I don't want to

Lysa: Right, right,

Mike: is. Welcome the

Lysa: right. 

Mike: This isn't even suggesting that we tune it out. This is actually suggesting that you consciously make an effort not only [00:33:00] to accept it, but to

Lysa: Right, right.

Sam: So I wanted.

Mike: to ask you do you consciously set out To welcome

or is it something that you've just learned to say, Hey, listen, the noise is there anyway. I might as well accept it. I might as well welcome it because inside of it there is value.

are You literally going out and trying to expand the amount of noise because you know that the more of that that you bring in, the more other good stuff

Lysa: Right, right.

Mike: it.

Lysa: This like to me, thank you for saying like, welcome. So this is a spiritual practice. I feel like this is about a spiritual practice. It's how I'm relating to this. And

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Lysa: one of the things that when I think about meditation practice or what I've learned in meditation practice, it's not about tuning things out.

It's not about complete silence, and that's a, that's a mistaken to me view of like what [00:34:00] silence is or is not. But there's a relationship. So I love welcome, what, welcome to me, like it imbues relationship, like it's the relationality of, of noise and, and that shifts and changes in the relationship. When I go back to meditation practice, meditation practice is so much about like being with what, what is present in this, in this moment, which shifts and changes over time.

And I thought about that when I was on my walk this morning, welcome came up like that the, this really intentional, conscious like being in welcome and. All kinds of things are happening all the time. All kinds of sounds, all kinds of noise, all kinds of, and then, then that kind of settling, that can happen.

And sometimes a settling that happens with the inner noise or the chatter, whatever we wanna call that. [00:35:00] So that's where I go with welcome. And I just, I felt like when you were talking to Sam, I really, it hit me that like, oh, this is. Welcome the noise that might carry the signal. It's really to me pointing to a practice and it's a spiritual practice.

And then I think about all kinds of things that have happened in our history where whether it's the civil rights movement, whether it's Black Lives Matter, whether it's things happening now, there's often a practice, a welcome that people do that have been doing before they go out. And they meet whatever intensity they're going to meet, and there's something about that practice and whatever we wanna call noise helps us discern and filter that in a way that you can show up.

Mike: So maybe it comes naturally to you or maybe it's intuitive, which is a word I don't even really love. But, do you feel like you, I. developed [00:36:00] the muscles, developed the skills to do that? Or is it something that you've always been into? And if that's not the case, can you share what making that transition actually involved for you 

Lysa: Yeah. Yeah. Yep, yep,

Mike: always the case that you would go outside and listen to this

Lysa: Yep.

Mike: from it. Um. Maybe it's always

Lysa: Yeah,

Mike: how did you go from point A to

Lysa: yeah. Oh, that's a great question. I mean, it's both. I definitely, my disposition and how I am as a person, as a child, I was just oriented towards kind of what we're talking about,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Lysa: and I definitely got lost along the way with all the noise and what has helped me. Um. Like this really profound two, I'll share two like profound things.

One profound thing was, um, there was a lot of like, kind of intense noise in my life in this period of my life. I [00:37:00] don't know, maybe like 15, 18 years ago where I, I was overwhelmed with whatever internal stuff I was experiencing, so I decided to go on this 12 day silent meditation retreat. And that seemed really extreme, and it kind of is for a lot of people.

And I show up at this place and there's a big sign on the wall that says, no stretching aloud. And I was like, oh, my, like, what? Like, no stretching. Like, what am I gonna be doing for 12 days? That's intense. And um, I wanted to run, but I stayed. That staying. That staying literally in that space of sitting meditation for 12 days and it's a practice, it's pretty, pretty extreme where you don't look people in the eye.

You keep your gaze soft. You really are like guarding your sense gates. You are with yourself and you're doing this practice of [00:38:00] meditation and what happened was like. It was like this kind of welcoming of extreme noise that I, that human beings carry that I was not aware of until I stopped doing what I was doing.

And I allowed all the stuff, how the body feels, how my mind feels, the confusion, the pain, the, the freaking out. All the stuff would just kind of come up and then settle, and then come up and settle and over, and over and over again. And I think that experience was really profound to me in the sense of like humbling, like how much is going on inside of us at any given moment and how much we're not, how much we're navigating the world to, to manage that.

And the other thing that happened, and this is a little more recent than that, was I had been part of helping, um, this [00:39:00] organization develop a nonprofit. But it was with a pretty diverse group of people. And I would listen to one of the, um, elders talk about developing this business, and she spoke so differently and I couldn't figure out what it was, but I noticed how I felt in her presence when she spoke.

I was like, wow. Like I just feel really different, really good. And I asked her one day and she said, oh. She said, you pointing to me. She said, you, you're an English speaker and you speak in nouns and that has shaped how you see the world. So you see the world in object subject. And I was like, whoa. And she said, I, I noticed like she mostly spoke in verbs and there was like this, this way of aliveness that came through in the way she was talking.

And she said, what I want you to do [00:40:00] is I want you to spend your time when you're out walking in the world, see if you cannot name anything, and it's really hard.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Lysa: about that practice that, like when you said Welcome that really that, that reminder of welcome really sparked something in me around showing up in these ways to life where it's a reminder to me of like how little I know and to be curious.

So even like a blue jay, like it's, it's automatic to say blue jay, but then I'll kind of stop and like. Just notice the quality of this bird or this winged thing and how that like just, it just shifts, it shifts things a little bit over time in these really like subtle, profound ways. So I'd say like those two things were really, so having said that, it's like these, these practices kind of keep that [00:41:00] maybe some of that energy alive for me.

Sam: I remember when Amber little going to Bread and puppet with you and I remember there being a poster there. I don't remember what the image was on the poster, but I remember the message loud and clear, and it was God of the day. No one knows your

Lysa: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Sam: And

Lysa: Yeah.

Sam: and this is a company, a, a theater and puppet

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: who specialized in making lots of noise.

Lysa: Yes. Yeah,

Sam: poli, politically

Lysa: yeah,

Sam clone: uh, company. And they were known for parading down city streets,

with four story high like Puppets controlled by multiple people and they were all

Lysa: Yeah. Yep.

Sam: you know what I mean?

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: but being very intentional, uh, with what they were signaling.

Uh,

Lysa: they're [00:42:00] welcome. Yeah. And they're welcome. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sam: Yeah. So tell me, tell me what, tell me your, your interpretation of God of the day. No one knows your name. 'cause I feel like it's kind of relevant to what you were just saying.

Lysa: I think it's the ineffable, I think it's like what we, you know, we, language is so, it's just so limiting, but we're, we're pointing toward. We're pointing, which I love that, and I think that's what I love about this maxim. It's like there's a pointing toward, it's not, it's not an answer.

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Me, the word welcoming, at the beginning of the sentence of this maxim, I feel like speaks to, it's a choice. It speaks to

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: Choosing our mode. Choosing the mode by which we receive the noise. Right. And that kind of changes how we're receiving the noise. 'cause we are in a, we are in a mode of welcoming choice.

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: we are, we

Lysa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: our experience, you know? I yeah.

Mike: This [00:43:00] reminds me, 

just to raise the antenna a little bit higher, to, to broaden the scope, that's where welcoming comes in. It's just a good reminder for me just to widen the

Sam: in the

Mike: a, 

probably a better better analogy for me.

Sam: I like that

Mike: Um, because if I do that, I have to accept the, the additional labor of opening the aperture

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: other stuff in. But as a result, I'm gonna receive more signals in the process.

Lysa: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike: broadening

Lysa: Yep,

Mike: bit

Lysa: yep.

Sam: Uh, before we wrap this up, if it's okay, I don't mean to put you on the spot, Lisa, and I don't want you to feel under pressure 'cause we can obviously edit

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: you know. Um, but I, with this new business of yours being so brand new, I kind of want

Lysa: So, brand new.

Sam: Ask you if you've got anything to say to our listening audience about like, what it is you're offering.

Like what, what is big heart practice and is there a relevance 

and just, I just want you to be able to [00:44:00] talk, a little bit about kind of like what, you're doing professionally

Lysa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting because I feel like, you know, it's that elevator pitch thing. The thing like, you know, have your, kinda, your, uh, your spiel and I feel like, most of my career has been in the

Mike: on, pitch us like you're

Lysa: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mike: Sorry,

Lysa: well that's the thing. That's the thing. It's sort of like, I mean, I think that what I've learned is because I've worked in the mental health system In a way that I feel like it's oriented towards what's wrong with you. And I think that's very much our culture is like it's self-improvement over self-acceptance. And my orientation is really more oriented towards self-acceptance and also collective connectedness and acceptance. So. It may feel funny to go to somebody [00:45:00] who is not going to label you with, with a mental health disorder or diagnosis, that kind of thing.

And with intention, I don't do that, which also means that I can't bill for insurance, but I feel really committed at this point in my life to not feed into that system for people who really want. An alternative to that and for folks who are, um, who've also been harmed by that, but also people who are really looking at, they wanna look at the more of the, the relational ecosystems in their lives, which I don't think are quantified or quantifiable in the ways that we've been taught.

And, I work a lot with themes and things like that, but, but there's just an openness and. A lot of my, um, what has inspired me is I've also worked with folks that, experience a lot of non-ordinary states. We maybe label schizophrenia, psychosis, that sort of thing. But [00:46:00] what I've learned is being in space with people and just allowing the relationship to happen and people to, to name what they're experiencing.

That's a very different quality of relating. And that's, that's a lot of what, what I do. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Mike: That's great. Yeah,

Sam: was really, that was actually, um, more than I was expecting Um,

Mike: I'd go into the woods with you

Lysa: Okay.

Mike: Very well done. Nicely.

Sam: exactly.

Lysa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mike: Okay.

Sam: Um, I, I'm not trying to avoid, you know, mentioning in front of, uh, our audience that, you're one of my best friends in the whole world and that we, we speak this way together, uh, frequently, usually a few times a

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Sam: um, uh, and have been doing so for, Uh, you know, well over

Lysa: Yeah, a long time.

Sam: Uh, so, uh, that said, from a personal [00:47:00] place, I just want to, I want to thank you for being here and contributing, uh, because I just think you are the bee's, knees, and one of the most amazing human beings I've ever met in my life. Um. But that's it. I just wanted to add that personal note that I just wanted to say, Hey, you're rad.

thank you for making our podcast cooler, um, because that's kind of what

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: Mike,

Mike: For sure. Well, you know, Sam,

Lysa: You guys, sorry,

Mike: a pattern

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: Lysa, where Sam takes the lead on, into thanking our guest and, and then by the time it gets to me, I'm just like, yeah,

Lysa: Yeah, yeah,

Mike: know?

Lysa: yeah,

Mike: Right. I'm left with,

Sam: kept it

Mike: basically

Lysa: yeah, yeah,

Mike: Thank

Lysa: yeah,

Mike: Uh,

Lysa: yeah,

Sam: That's

Lysa: yeah.

Mike: but, but,

Lysa: Mm-hmm.

Mike: right when, when he suggested, inviting you to do this, I was like, oh yeah, of

Lysa: Oh yeah.

Mike: the 

Lysa: thank you both very much. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a pleasure.

Mike: just as importantly, best of [00:48:00] luck with the new endeavor. Um, I shouldn't say luck, really

Lysa: Yeah. Nope.



Lysa: But thank you both though. I mean, this is like, this is a tension and this is welcome and you both are great with both of those things. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: great point. Yeah.

Lysa: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike: way

Lysa: Put a bow on it.

Mike: it all together.

Sam: Well done.

Mike: well played. 

Sam: Hey, it's Sam and Mike, and we appreciate you coming on this journey with us today. We hope that if you enjoyed it, you'll tell a friend, or better yet, share a link to this podcast and let your community know directly how it impacted you. That would really help us reach more listeners just like yourself.

Thanks again for listening today. Please feel free to email us at info@maximeqpodcast.com. To share a favorite maxim or adage that you might like us to consider for a future episode or perhaps just leave a kind message, maybe some feedback. Till next time, make it a great [00:49:00] day.