Don’t Let What You Can’t Do Interfere With What You Can Do

In this episode, we explore our first listener-suggested maxim: “Don’t let what you can’t do interfere with what you can do.” The saying is primarily attributed to legendary UCLA basketball coach John Wooden, and its message is as practical as it is timeless.

Sam and I unpack this adage with our guest, Mike Piehl of Somerville, MA, examining how focusing on forward motion—rather than limitations—can unlock progress in work, creativity, and life. The phrase isn’t about ignoring challenges or pretending constraints don’t exist; it’s about refusing to let them become excuses. It’s a reminder that momentum is built by acting on what’s within reach, even when the full path forward is completely clear yet;-).

Given his lifelong practice of resourcefulness across nearly every facet of his life, Mike turned out to be the perfect guest to bring this idea to life, sharing real-world perspective on how doing something often matters more than waiting to do everything.

Postscript: As I wrote this episode summary, I was struck by how relevant this topic is to the very existence of Maxim EQ itself. There were (and still are;-) plenty of things Sam and I didn’t know about podcasting—but we started anyway, we’re learning as we go, and have enjoyed every step of the journey.

Thanks for listening,

Mike

Transcript

Don't let what you can't do interfere with what you can
===

[00:00:00] Welcome to Maxim eq, where we explore the common sensical through individual interpretation at a time when the profound is too often reduced to cheap memes and goofy bumper stickers, we head in the opposite direction, digging deeper to examine the commonalities and differences in our perceptions around a particular adage.

In each episode, we'll discuss our guest take on a thought provoking maximum. Designed to promote self-reflection and personal growth for us, but hopefully for you as well. In today's episode, Mike and I are joined by a favorite old friend, Mike Piehl, originally from Kenosha, Wisconsin, but especially well known as a pillar of the Boston Music community.

A great drummer of wonderful father and a talented carpenter. He's coming on today to discuss an old maxim. Don't let what you can't do, interfere with what you can do. And if you know the same Mike Piehl, that we know he's equal parts smart ass, and extremely [00:01:00] warm and generous of the heart. Should be an amazing conversation.

Now Maxim EQ with Sam Wahl and me, Mike Baumer.

Mike: How you doing?

Sam: I'm good. How are you? I

Mike: Good.

Sam: forever, man.

Mike: know, right? Dude, we look exactly the same. Right?

Sam: in Chicago when Lail and I were there.

Mike P: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Your children were small.

Mike: Sam set it up a little bit earlier in that this is the first maxim that we're discussing, or adage that was actually recommended or suggested by somebody who listened to an earlier episode.

And so we threw it in the pool of candidates to share with you and you responded pretty quickly. so I have, [00:02:00] I have two questions for you. One. Would you mind sharing with our listeners what it is? And then two, just curious to know why you reacted to it so quickly. What did it, like, what did it trigger?

you had a pretty immediate response to it.

Sam: I don't have any notes, so I don't

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: have to look it up. 

I mean, I, I don't know it by heart, but

Mike: Well, let me feed it to you and then you can try to recollect what your instant reaction was to it. don't let what you can't do interfere with what you can.

Sam: Right. What was interesting was, I I was thinking of it like, at the same time, I'm pretty good at like, dealing with, adversity.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: Sam and I had a long talk, when I heard your podcast and um, there's something about, 

things that like come up in your life that you're just like, I don't wanna do this, but I have to. And it's just like, you kind of put your nose down and just like, when this is over, I don't have to think about it anymore.

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: You know [00:03:00] what I mean? I, I texted it to my ex-wife who this is, it's so, it's so funny that she took it and it's perfect.

She took it, read it completely differently.

Mike: Huh.

Sam: it, she didn't see it the way I saw it. Um,

Mike P: which is super cool because that's, that's exactly why we

Mike: That's why we do this. Yeah.

Sam: right, right.

Mike P: uh, let me just say one thing real fast, Mike, that was kind of top of mind for me, inviting Mike Peihl onto this show, and also specifically to discuss this maxim. Like when I think of Mike Peihl, you know, and I'm not being funny here, I'm, I'm remembering you fondly from our days together back in Boston, and when I think of Mike Peel, I, I think of a guy. Who really was in limited resource situations, a very solutions oriented guy, I remember making records with you at Frannie's House and like, you know, using a, an ill-equipped house with no XLR wiring to set up like really crazy different acoustic [00:04:00] drums, recording scenarios.

And, and I remember a guy who, who didn't have a car, so he built a trailer and pulled his drum set behind his bike to get to gigs in a snowy, Massachusetts City. just saying you are a person who I feel like has always kind of naturally clicked into, a solutions oriented disposition, up against limited resources.

and what I wanted to ask you, how you identified with this maximum. And also like, are you that same guy like in your other facets of life, in your professional? Like I know that you're, you work in carpentry, it's funny even that, uh, I was thinking about like, well, what does Mike specialize in in carpentry?

And I remember you giving me this diatribe one time about how, you were turned on by the use of negative space, like going into these like smaller, older homes and finding unused space inside of walls and stuff like that. And it just stuck with me. And I'm like, that's [00:05:00] Mike Peihl. Mike Peihl is a guy that like, is looking for solutions.

You know what I mean? And,

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: but I, I'd like to know kind of like maybe how that has adapted in the rest of your life. Like as a parent for example. just see if you can't share a little bit more about that with us, about kind of who you are in that.

Mike: Yeah, like other applications that, that, to Sam's point, that, that creative problem solving and not necessarily focusing on what you don't have or what you can't do, how that, doesn't keep you from moving forward.

Sam: Right. Well,

Mike: Right. So

Sam: there's so many, um, and I, 

Mike: you're 

Sam: they're popping into my

Mike: mm-hmm. Um,

Sam: with

Mike: with kids,

Sam: it,

Mike: it's like,

Sam: um,

Mike: how old you didn't really meet?

Sam: is my oldest and owl

Mike: How old is trans?

Sam: Never

Mike: Never thought I'd have to

Sam: with

Mike: deal with that.

Sam: You

Mike: You know, like,

Sam: you

Mike: you know,

Sam: how to deal with it. And it's

Mike: like

Sam: do you mean how

Mike: how to deal with

Sam: It's your kid. Like, it's just, it is

Mike: it's what it's, and,

Sam: you

Mike: you know,

Sam: things are gonna come and, doctors are gonna [00:06:00] tell you things when they go, you know? And, and, and we

Mike: had

Sam: any problems, luckily ever

Mike: with my

Sam: negative people,

Mike P: Hmm.

Sam: which. I, I I can't

Mike: Can't

Sam: what

Mike: what? That's gonna be like

Sam: and 

oddly enough, being sober my whole life makes you, when something like that happens, you're at a bar and some shit's going down, like, take a second and think about it before you actually act 

Mike: And the fact that you know, that your judgment to the degree it exists, no offense, I don't mean like you, you have poor judgment, but you know, as a baseline that it's not clouded or that it's not influenced by something else.

Sam: yeah. It's as good as it's gonna get

Mike: Right. Right.

Sam: Yeah. 

Mike P: so, uh, just to kind of this open a little wider, you know, so don't let what you can't do interfere with what you can do. So obviously, I mean, to me it's obvious that the nemesis [00:07:00] in this paradigm is, is fear or aversion. um,

Sam: Mike Piehl can be.

Mike P: yeah. Right. that's the first thing that comes to mind for me. And then fear, you know, sets us off center, puts us

into fight or flight, which, softens our connection to logic, right? 

So it clouds our ability to land squarely on our feet in a logic space, right? Um, and so, I'm wondering if, dude, there's so much here.

This is why you're a great candidate for this discussion because sobriety is something that I discovered in my life in my late forties, in my mid

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: You know, I've been sober for 12 years and being a non-medicated person has made an enormous difference in how I metabolize life and who I am, as a responder to, fear version.

It's really changed everything for me,

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: and how I'm available to respond life's quandaries [00:08:00] and. you chose sobriety. I'd like to know just outta sheer curiosity, a little bit more about that. 

what's the history behind that? why did you choose just to be a sober person, especially a person immersed in music and, you've been around drinking and drugs, I'm sure your

Sam: My whole life. Yeah.

Mike P: whole life. Yeah. So what was it that informed you that sobriety was the best kind of choice of,

Sam: Um, 

I,

Mike: I, I think it has,

Sam: it,

Mike: you know, initially had more to do with

Sam: with why I won't eat brussel sprouts anything. Like, I'm serious,

Mike: seriously, um,

Sam: my

Mike: my parents.

Sam: socially. Nobody was an alcoholic. I think my, my father's family, alcohol was rampant, but he was like, I just saw him like, drink a beer here and there.

Never saw him drunk. Um, he smoked a pipe. My mom smoked cigarettes until we like, you know, we, my brother and I just like, throw 'em away and she couldn't really argue with us. but the drinking was Kenosha was, [00:09:00] there was mo the most bars per square mile in anywhere in the United

Mike: I was gonna say, dude, you were, you were seriously swimming against the odds, like growing up in that area. Yeah.

Sam: did an amazing thing with us. my brother and I are both the same way. Where being different was cool. Like everybody was into the, know, the Cubs or the brewers. And the Green Bay Packers. And I was a weightlifter and I just didn't like those sports and, um, did something else.

And, my dad taught us that, being different makes, like thinking outside the box. And he taught us to think outside the box. Um, there's an amazing game that I'm actually trying to work up a book, um, that he used to play with us drawing. 'cause we, we all draw, all three of us draw my brother, my younger brother and, and, uh, my dad and I. And, um, it was like you take the

Letter 

Mike: A.

Sam: you know, and, um, you had to make it into

Mike: So.

Sam: shade in the top triangle, make some [00:10:00] squiggly lines and turn it into a tip of a pencil. But then the

Mike: The next time

Sam: you couldn't do that, 

so 

Mike: do that. So you

Sam: it over and maybe it was the valley, you know, a mountain or a a, the Hoover Dam or something like that.

But it was

Mike: was like,

Sam: making you think, in different ways. So the drinking was, that's all anybody did. And, it was probably also like, it smelled terrible to me. So like, I'm not gonna do that. Like don't eat anything that I don't, you know,

Mike P: Yeah.

Sam: your green beans. It's like you've cooked the life out of 'em.

I'm not eating this soggy shit.

Mike: mm-hmm.

Sam: it's this

Mike: Kind of thing.

Sam: then I

Mike: I started.

Sam: it, I saw people who like in Kenosha were my friends and were just doing nothing. And I wanted to just play drums all the time and then go to whatever New York, la go to school and like this professionally. And the same thing with like, all my friends that got high, even in college, I saw it as like, I would go out to [00:11:00] see music when I lived in Allston and I'd come home from seeing an amazing band and the guys would still be sitting in the living, they were musicians too, sitting in the living room, you know, with the bong. And I was like, dude, like you just, they're like, this town sucks. I was like, you haven't seen this town.

Mike: Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Sam: what I mean? Like, that kind of thing. And it just, everything just kind of solidified my position as I went on. And then, you know,

Mike: You know,

Sam: older and

Mike: older.

Sam: your friends start fucking dying from it, you know?

Like

Mike: So, lemme ask you a question. kind of tied to this maxim in something that you were just talking about in terms of thinking outside the box and it's something you, you can think of examples that you've been doing since you were a kid growing up. It's like a lot of times, for better or for worse, we find ourselves, referencing.

Music related stuff, right? when we're having these conversations, and there are plenty of examples of this, whether it's through, you know, some garage bands or whether it's, um, punk bands, but [00:12:00] U2 comes to mind, right? And you're, so, you're interviewing Bono or the Edge or something. They say, how come you didn't do any covers?

And you're like, 'cause we couldn't, right? It's like we weren't good enough to cover the shit that we like, so we just started writing our own songs. And when I think about, don't let what you can't do or what you don't know interfere with what you can do, like, that's a ideal fucking example. And so, to me that's creative problem solving, right?

Like, they wanted to play, they couldn't do that one thing, but they didn't, didn't keep them from going on to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest band in the world, at least for some period of time. So, can you think of some situations, through life where maybe you don't even.

See what you can't do. You just find yourself, kind of like your example a minute ago, just riffing into, outside the box thinking or creative problem solving. do you see the roadblock before you're able to pivot to some other potential avenue to success, or do you just find yourself going in that direction?

Unprompted.[00:13:00] 

Sam: So here's a thought. It might not even be a roadblock

Mike: Okay.

Sam: So let's talk about drumming. Like, uh, I remember, and this was a big awakening for me. There's a friend of ours that was producing a record. It was, this is like the nineties, and I see like Jerome Dupree and John Sands and all these guys coming out we're all auditioning and we're all laughing out on the street and everything.

And I go in and this guy

Mike: Guy knows all

Sam: and he's having

Mike: having us play this track.

Sam: songwriter. And he's like, okay, play it a little more like this. And I was like, dude, you

Mike: You know what I did?

Sam: You know what that guy does? You know what he does? Like we all have our own voice and you know what I like, this is what I do.

Like if you want me to do what he does, get him,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and that's when I kind of like fell into, this is what I do. You know what I mean? Like when I was at Berklee it was, I was, we were doing all the Chick Korea shit and all [00:14:00] the

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and that's why I paired down to like kick snare hat, and just like got it outta my system.

And, and I've kind of em embraced that as this is who I am,

Mike: Yeah. So I don't love this term, but it's basically like you identified your strengths and you leaned into them. So in that sense, you're actually kind of eliminating things you can't do because you're already focused on the things that make you, you and your signature and your strengths,

Sam: So

Mike: okay?

Sam: it's not what I can't do. I

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I just don't want to.

Mike: Ah, okay. Yeah.

Sam: I

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: could sit down and shed and get that, those chops back. I

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike P: crazy. It's crazy too. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to like abuse or ring out the topic of sobriety, but like, I feel like choice to, be a sober person as a kid was an inspired moment because I think that it really accelerated your ability to have a [00:15:00] healthy relationship with your actual self and your ego and,

continue to make, you know, informed decisions

Sam: Right,

Mike P: you know.

Sam: but it's not lost on me that I

Mike: I.

Sam: that I'm whatever. I don't believe in that shit. But the word blessed, like I had a wonderful, I had wonderful parents. My dad's family was like, I found out later in life was kind of fucked up, but he wasn't. And even when, like I was in high school or I was just getting outta high school when my parents divorced and, that's a whole other story, but it, it, it was more like, um, he still loved my mom.

He just had always loved this other woman. but I never felt, I never, I've always felt love, like I'm completely, who I am because of the

Mike: The unconditional love.

Sam: was given. And I think about that as a parent all the time. that I will always be there for you. My mom was always there for me, [00:16:00] so was my dad and, my Italian grandparents, my mom's parents, that was just like being made in the mafia.

Like I was the first born. when I went to Berklee the first time I met this girl who, like her mom put cigarettes out on her fucking arm. You know, I'm like, wow. Like not everybody grew up the way I did.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I get older and, we start, people start, um, you know, a handful of people, including our friend Ian, who killed himself.

My brother started talking about, he's like, dude, I deal with depression. He goes, I know exactly what he's talking about, and I'm going, we grew up in the same house. How are you that diff like, 'cause

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: you know what

Mike: You know what I mean?

Sam: my brother. Like,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: he had a different experience

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: different DNA and

Mike P: filter. Yeah. Altogether.

Sam: it's, I,

Mike: I, I think you just touched on one of the things I wanted to ask, although now I have two things I want to ask, but I'm gonna stay somewhat where we are right now. And I was thinking about this last night. You know, don't let what [00:17:00] you can't do interfere with what you can do. first of all, it's interesting to me that that's used as a motivational tactic or line of encouragement that has so many negative words in it.

You know what I mean? Instead of like, it's, it's, it's a positive thing, but it's coming from a negative place with the don'ts and the nots and that kind of thing, but it made me wonder, and I don't know if we can speak to this or not, but hopefully we can. What role do you think that 

Confidence and self-esteem play in how somebody sees that. Like, to your point, you were saying, I, I don't even really see what I can't do. I'm just moving forward into the stuff that I wanna do, you know, and growing through that. And I would think that someone who is more overwhelmed by the first half of that statement, overwhelmed by what they don't know.

Right. I wonder how does upbringing and self-esteem development and confidence play into how different [00:18:00] people might be able to, get past the roadblocks and just get into leaning into what they are able to do to get through the task and the challenge.

Sam: for me it's everything. Like,a drummer has to be confident,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and you can smell it on somebody who's not,

Mike P: mm.

Sam: But like I said before, like that's a, i, I view that as like, like a gift.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: You know, to have that self-esteem. 'cause I don't, I don't, I only know

Mike: You don't know what it's like to not have it. Yeah. Yeah,

Sam: I don't mean like, I'm some fucking

Mike: yeah, yeah.

Sam: things that I

Mike: Relatively speaking. Yeah, of course.

Sam: ever since Ian, people have come to me to talk about stuff like that

Mike P: Yeah.

Sam: they've had a thought about it. And, um, it's made me better at talking to them.

at work. I ran into a friend of mine. We had an amazing guy. I hadn't seen him in a, in a long time. And his brother. Um, and I knew he had, I knew he had had issues. Issues. I mean, [00:19:00] he

Mike: we'll say.

Sam: didn't have, he didn't, um, handle death. Well, you know how

Mike: Okay.

Sam: are just like, they free, you know, like when someone close, he had a musician friend die and I remember it was just like, I wanted to go, dude.

Like, you know, alright, I get it. but this happened and his brother committed suicide

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: we had this conversation and I was like, dude, anytime you wanna talk, like, call me after this. And he's like, I feel so much better. You know, like, 'cause everybody does the, what could I have done? It's like, dude, there's

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: you could have done.

Mike: Mm.

Sam: as you realize that, you know, like, and take the guilt off yourself, then it's like, okay, you can see the problems and that the, whatever. and I'm not saying I

Mike: Yeah. That's heavy. Mm-hmm.

Sam: but like, it's just, it's just how you deal with it. And I I really felt like I helped him.

and he said it, you know, like, and I was like, anytime you wanna talk about this stuff, just call me. You

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: And, and it's almost like some [00:20:00] kind of whisperer when I don't, but I, I always feel like it's, if you're giving a given a gift, you have to pay it forward

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: you

Mike: It, it reminds me, Sam, if you don't mind,

that question, what could we have done? Just kind of stuck in my craw just

Sam: Yeah,

Mike P: and, you know, I'm

Mike: No, you're good.

Mike P: to a conversation I was having with my wife last

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: because we're, you know, in, this time where, um, you know, our society is seemingly di very divided. You know, we got folks living in two different paradigms, you know, I mean,

and, uh, you know, in the more woke side, uh, for lack of a, uh, more

Mike: For definitely lack of a better term, but yeah. Okay. Sorry.

Mike P: uh, you know, there's this, this kind of trending. of like neurodiversity in the workplace, for example. leading to inclusion, empowerment, innovation, [00:21:00] uh, know, there's, there's an awareness that, uh, we have been victims of an onslaught of propaganda, a narrative that is, that has limited our bandwidth and, and our scope of possibilities as communities, you know, that has been chipping away at disempowering us and what we actually can do. 

So naturally we need to, we need to be less rigid and dogmatic about how we set up, how we work together, how we set up workplaces together, and we need to, to make productivity, uh, the, the collective goal, right? Meaning that

Sam: Right,

Mike P: to, we have to make a workspace, conducive for, for all types, 

and getting away from, a programming or a narrative of sorts that only serves the top, you know what I mean? That only

serves, uh, one, one class. And I might [00:22:00] be starting to ramble here, but the point is, is that, you know, what, what can we do? What could we have done? We could have, we could have talked to one another more.

Sam: Right.

Mike P: have been less fearful about what we talked about. 

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: Fuck that. There's nothing we don't talk about.

Sam: Right,

Mike P: about it all and, and, and when we do, it empowers us as a community that's steeped in understanding, that's steeped in sensitivity. And, and we can become an impenetrable army of caring, loving people who know just how to serve one another in an instant without thinking about it if we exercise those muscles.

You know 

what 

Sam: right.

Mike P: So I hope that wasn't too esoteric or I, I hope I didn't go off

Sam: No, no.

Mike P: tangent,

Mike: So, so I, I wanted to ask when we were there a minute ago, which was like, and it, and it goes and it references something you were talking about earlier, Mike, where. [00:23:00] Like, it's not that I can't do this thing, I could do this thing if I applied myself to it or if I learned how to do it, but my preference is this thing over here, so I'm just gonna go do this thing over here.

I'm gonna be me. I'm gonna lean into the things that I like. And so what I was wondering, and I don't remember where we were a few minutes ago, but it was pretty close to this, it's like how do you find that balance between leaning into your existing strengths and not avoiding challenges that through those challenges and taking them on might result in growth and might result in adding tools to that toolbox that will only either enhance the things that you already do well, or actually, you know, add to the catalog of things that you do well.

Like, where's that line between avoiding it and embracing it?

Sam: No idea.

Mike: Okay.

Sam: you're absolutely

Mike: Absolutely. Right. Well, I feel like you're doing it. You're doing it in, yeah. You're doing it intuitively then, right? Like you say if you're not, yeah. Okay.

Sam: I mean, maybe if I had [00:24:00] drank. I would have lost inhibitions.

I've like, you know, had more women in my life or something, you know what I mean? Like, there's all

Mike: Uhhuh.

Sam: you can, know, you can say, you know, if I coulda, would've, shoulda have, which is, uh, kind of related to what I don't do. Like, I know I've had friends who are in huge bands that were like, dude, if you had moved out to LA you would've cleaned up.

You know, like you would've been one of the guys. And I was like, yeah, it's nice, it's nice to hear, but I don't beat myself up about not moving to LA my

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: you know, I wouldn't have my

Mike: All the other things. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sam: other things. Like, it's just like I, and I know that most people do have regrets and like that, and it's just, I, I've always kind of been like, you know, this, it, it is what it is.

And, and here's what I'm given. We have rice, I have a little bit of chicken. Like what do we, you know, like.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: What are we gonna make out of [00:25:00] this?

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: what am I

Mike: Right. So to your point, it never even occurred to you that you're missing an ingredient. You only look at what you have and see what it could be

Sam: Right,

Mike: or start working on what it could be anyway. Yeah.

Sam: that's the way to be. I'm just saying how it's been. And, and you're right, maybe I did miss out on some things or have been, or still am because of that. But like, you can kill yourself like thinking, you know, in into a hole like, if I could've, would've, should have.

Mike: And so Sam brought up being a parent earlier, like, how do you, how do you, do you see this playing out in your kids? Um, is it something that again, is just like developing naturally where, you know, growing up in an environment around you and conditioning them, that, that you don't necessarily see them struggle with it?

Or do you, do you see them getting hung up on things they can't do instead of focusing on what they can?[00:26:00] 

Sam: Um, that's a good question. my brother and I talk about this all the time because like our parents did, a great job. And I'm like, so now I'm raising kids and the whole time I've been raising kids, I've been, you know, talking to my brother, I was like, you know, like all kinds of things that happened when we were kids, you know, going, was that conscious?

You know, like, did he do that on purpose to make us. Who we are or just like, and, and you know, or whatever it may be. And one of the things, my mom was a nurse and I, this sticks with me. I actually used it to a, a coworker whose wife is due like next month or something. I looked their first baby. And, um, my mom, my mom, her, her, our pediatrician was the doctor that she interned under when she was in college.

And, um, so they were friends and she like overthought everything and she was like, blah, blah, blah. She came to him and she call him and everything and he just went, Donna just love him. Like, and I was like, fuck, that's [00:27:00] beautiful. Like, that's just, that's it. Like you do what you can, you, you know, like I, I do it all the time.

Like, um, it just made me think of like being in the car when they were, when, not little but littler with like. Um, my daughter Vallen is, is best friends with Sophie, who was Ian's daughter. And I've made it a point her whole, ever since he's been gone to tell her stories about him and

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: and, you know, like, and, and, and send her like, oh my God, this is hilarious.

Like, check this out, you know, whatever, and tell stories about it. And all this stuff makes them who they are.

Mike P: Mm.

Sam: So I feel like I've, I've been a good dad. They know they, it's unconditional love. They totally get it. And I can see it like I was a stay at home. I was lucky enough to be a stay at home dad, and it makes a difference.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: as a, as a solutions oriented person by [00:28:00] nature, know, your kids see you. They, they

Sam: right?

Mike: Mm-hmm. 

Mike P: a, what can I do person rather than a what might happen person. You know

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: and they're, as a result, less likely to get stuck in fear paralysis 

or, 

Sam: Right.

Mike P: know what I mean?

They're, they probably inherited your flow for,

Sam: Right. 

Mike P: and, that's, that, that's a massive

Mike: Huge. Yeah.

Sam: Well, it's, yeah, it's kind of a build it and they will come kind of thing. Like, I don't

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I can't, I could probably think of some examples, but it's still, you know,

Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a different version it's lead by example, but in this case it's, it's, um, it's parenting by example. It's nurturing by example. It's, uh, development by example. I don't know.

Mike P: I,

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: more important than anything I, I swear, like I, I, I've, and I've seen people who didn't have this is the confidence, of just knowing that, not, not even that. If I wasn't, like, [00:29:00] if I were to die tomorrow, my kids would know that their dad loved them. Like unquestionably,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: was the same way.

My dad was the same way, I felt that, and that's one of the most powerful things in the world. Like you have that, you have all the confidence you need, you know,it's nothing but it's so something,

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: Like, I'm still teaching them shit, or they're teaching me too, which, you know, 'cause we're, and the three of us are learning from each other right now. Like, that's how I view it and view them. And so like, like I'll have Owl and her trans friends, you know, all over here, like watching something or they're talking about something and I'll interject. Um, something that's a little more, uh. Who was I gonna say? Like a little more Bill Burr and not as much, you know, like, so like, and, and saying like, you [00:30:00] guys still have to live in the world. You're,

Mike: Mm

Sam: in a bubble right now. I, you know, but I just want you to know, I want you to be strong enough to not think that this is how it is and you might

Mike: mm,

Sam: travel to another city someday

Mike: mm-hmm.

Sam: have an experience.

Mike: A different experience. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sam: you know, and I want you to be at least aware that that could happen.

Mike: Mm So, you know,

Mike P: I think, I think, you know, I was reading this this bit earlier and we're talking about, um, matters of self-awareness and It, you know, people who know their own cognitive patterns

you know, I was reading this bit earlier and we're talking about, matters of self-awareness and It, people who know their own cognitive patterns

Mike: mm.

Mike P: use tools like fact checking, emotional regulation and reframing as you were describing in your bar story earlier, are far better at resisting, [00:31:00] manipulation 

Sam: right.

Mike P: manipulation being, judgment of coming from others or, or even attacks coming from others or whatever, but the best thing that you can, especially if you have a child who is deeply minority in their identity or whatever, you know, it's like that, that's a person who, who you definitely want to like coach and foster their, their kind of cognitive awareness and, and,

Sam: Right.

Mike P: up their toolbox so that they're ready, know, to be. their feet firmly

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: the ground and be well centered so that they can make wise decisions, moving forward. Uh, I fear for children like your child, who have parents with lesser tools and lesser kind of resources, 

we were talking about the Sopranos earlier, whether you have a tendency to use violence or, you know, to denial and violence or whatever. But like, I, I can't [00:32:00] imagine being a child like Owl in a household with a parent like Tony Soprano, you know what I mean?

Mike: Yeah, yeah.

Sam: Right, but they might find. the voice to talk to them somewhere else.

Mike P: maybe.

Sam: know what I

Mike: Know what I mean?

Sam: there, it's not like it's hopeless. Like you're automatically gonna become like your parents. I mean, I think of so many people that, you know, like that got out of just a, just like bad parenting and became really amazing people almost in like, in

Mike: Yeah, it can have, it can have the opposite effect. Yeah. It's like they've got this, this ability to see very clearly all the things they don't want to be. That's half of it. And then the second half is actually executing on it and having a support system and people, and third party resources, that can be a mirror to you in case you are doing some of that shit that you don't wanna do,

Sam: Right.

Mike: know, and report and reporting back.

but Sam, can I ask you a question? You've, you've worn a lot of different hats. [00:33:00] tour managing restaurateur, becoming a realtor. There have to have been serious moments going into each one of those endeavors where this maximum would be relevant. So, is that an accurate assumption?

Yeah, so I mean, I wouldn't mind hearing. How do you get through that? like share one of those experiences if you can.

Mike P: Yeah.

Mike: like through that example, like through the example of, of taking on new challenges over the course of your adult and professional life.

Mike P: Fair enough. You know, I, I learned early on in life, that, uh, most people are faking it until they make it,

Mike: Hmm.

Mike P: you know, and, and I had to. I had to convince myself of that at a certain point. I don't remember exactly when that was, but I remember feeling like, you know, living in that space where everyone else has got everything figured out, and I felt like this, [00:34:00] this afraid and uninformed island.

Like, what, you know, how, how is it that I didn't get the memos? You know what I mean?

Mike: Hmm.

Mike P: And then it occurred to me one day, oh my God, everyone's faking it. Everyone's just riffing. Everyone's just flowing until they, until they make it, I adopted a new set of tools early on in life in order to be. in that space and kind of, you know, it, it's the same as like picture the audience in front of you of

Mike: Mm.

Mike P: underwear kind of

Sam: Right, right.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: on and, and, and was able to actually begin to enjoy spaces that felt

Mike: Oh.

Mike P: and be a little bit more kind of unfettered in unfamiliar space and actually enjoy kind of the high of that,

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike P: you know? Um, so starting a business that I knew nothing about, uh, getting my license and going into real estate was zero experience. And, you know, listening to a world filled with, [00:35:00] acronyms and all the things that identify, you know, experts and all that kind of stuff and you just kind of adapt and, you know, but for me.

Uh, as a 54-year-old man now, like I, I think that what I really rest on, the laurels that I really rest on that I bring I to the best of my ability, as Mike was talking about earlier. Hey, I do what I do. That guy does what he does, whatever, you

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: I bring as much authenticity the table as possible.

I know who I am. I know that I can be a good listener, that I can be a person sensitive to multiple types of intelligence and multiple types of, you know,

neurodiversity. 

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: know,

Sam: Hmm.

Mike P: can be a person who can serve, I can bring a genuine, uh, a genuine, heartfelt, uh, servitude to the table. And that's what I do.

Mike: Yeah.

Mike P: what I, that's how I compensate for the, the technical or [00:36:00] mechanical or

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike P: things that I may not have my head wrapped around

Mike: Correct.

Mike P: You know what I

Mike: Yeah.

Mike P: just bring what I've got, 

Mike: The, the fact that you're able to, like what they'll, you know, call soft skills, you know, in this case are transferable to different disciplines. And like you said, you can pick up over time the acronyms and the jargon and the, Hey, hey, haze, right? And mechanicals. But that's.

Like I am just at 55 starting to value those things, which I could have been, putting to use much earlier. And so it sounds to me, would you say it's also true that you started identifying those qualities and those skills and the value of those skills much earlier, like in your twenties, in your thirties, in your forties, or you said you made a conscious decision to, to go in more towards that, make it till you fake it and embrace it.

Right. But like, when would you say you were self-aware enough or knew yourself well enough to also recognize that those attributes were transferable into [00:37:00] whatever space you wanted to go in?

Mike P: Yeah, I mean, probably more recent

Mike: Okay.

Mike P: but, you know, but I will say this, I was a kid with, probably some sort of form of dyslexia. Uh, definitely attentional issues, possibly even, and we've talked about this before. I don't know exactly what was going on in my body when I was a child, but I did know that I could not sit in a classroom seat and accomplish schoolwork.

Uh, 

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: curricular standards the way other children

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike P: possible. And so early on in life, I knew that I was gonna have to figure out how to do things my own way,

Mike: Okay.

Mike P: and that, that eventually translated into me also knowing about myself, that I needed to be self-employed,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: I needed to be creative and figure out a modality for making a living that had some pathways to success for me. And by success I mean me feeling validated, valuable, and understood in my [00:38:00] everyday 

existence, you know 

Mike: Mm-hmm. 

Mike P: I value that over money. Me.

Mike: Yeah, dude. I mean that, that's amazing. I mean, it sounds like you, and you're saying that even back in grade school, you recognize that then, like consciously, or you realize now that you knew that?

Mike P: I did recognize it. Um. I think in retrospect, I might be lending a little bit more, you know, 

Mike: Yeah. That's fair. Yeah, that's right.

Mike P: but I definitely, when my mother passed away, when I was 12 years

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: and, you know, I definitely switched,

Mike: Okay.

Mike P: a paradigm shift for me

Mike: Okay.

Mike P: and

Sam: Absolutely.

Mike P: My dad,

Sam: I,

Mike P: uh, who I loved very much as a kid.

But my relationship with him was so different than that with my mother. And he also had a meltdown and,

Mike: Mm.

Mike P: needed to lick his wounds

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: know, time. Well, at 12 years old, you don't have time, 

Mike: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: yeah.

Mike P: switch. You're in survival mode. My mother I was attached to her.

I was still attached by the [00:39:00] umbilical, you

Mike: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mike P: and so when, when I lost her, I switched immediately into a, a survival mode and, and began to realize very quickly that I needed, I didn't even, it wasn't even a 

Mike: Yeah. You just said it. Once you switch into survival mode, you don't have a choice.

Mike P: It wasn't a

Mike: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike P: just resourcing at that point.

Mike: Okay.

Sam: you have siblings?

Mike P: Yeah,

Sam: okay.

Mike P: yeah. And as just, just like you and your sibling, as you described earlier, all of us filtered that experience

Mike: Differently?

Sam: Right.

Mike P: all, we all metabolized that experience

Mike: Mm.

Mike P: you know what I

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: and, uh, so you could ask each one of us what that, what that time was like, and you're gonna get a different narrative, a different story from each one of

Mike: Amazing. Yeah.

Mike P: Yeah. you know, that's, that's my story. I mean, and that's, I feel like I'm fulfilled. I have been fortunate enough as you were, you were reluctantly using the word blessed earlier, Mike.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: I, I am fortunate I [00:40:00] have. my innate ability to, to achieve resource and to make relationships with other people and other things that brought resource to me, uh, has been successful because I am fulfilled,

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: I am fulfilled, and I am, I am grateful and I have very minimal regrets at this part in my life, which 

is 

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: and it feels really empowering and really good to be in that space. So I feel like not only am I fulfilled, but I'm in a place where I'm prepared to serve and help other people. to, to circle back to you, relating this to that modality of empathy that you were relating

Sam: Right.

Mike P: know, that you were asking me

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: about, um, making reference to the last, episode that we released, but, um, I feel like empathy is a mode that we get to experience. After we've processed, uh, not letting what we can't do, interfere with what we

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike P: you know, [00:41:00] through some of these, intentions in our life, then we can experience empathy and empathy, reaps and yields these rewards,

know, and, so yeah, that's where I'm at. 

you know, we came up in a weird time, man. We came up like. At the tail end of like, our parents' generation, the boomers were kind of a revolutionary generation against the rigidity and dogma of like, religiosity

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: post-war

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: and, and the industrial, uh, movement and all that.

And it's like, they didn't, I don't feel like our parents were all that thoughtful or mindful about sharing the progression of that revolution with us. They,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: No.

Mike P: what I mean? We got

Mike: Yeah.

Mike P: I feel like we got parked,

Mike: Yeah.

Mike P: mean?

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: you and so now I feel like there's a moment, there's an opportunity for us now to like, take that ball and continue to make progress and

Mike: Yeah.

Mike P: run, you know, and[00:42:00] 

Mike: I mean,

Mike P: I love the fact that I have, and I'm just gonna say this out loud, Mike. You I have a unique scenario where my, child is black.

Mike: mm-hmm.

Mike P: has been so teaching and, and so expansive for me,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: so much. And you have a child who's trans, and I love that. And I have several friends, and we've had other guests on this, on this podcast already who, who have children who are non-binary or who are um, different, identities, you know, sexual orientation identities or whatever it may be.

Sam: Yeah,

Mike P: I I'm so grateful that, that our younger generation is, is now propping neurodiversity and, uh, sexual orientation diversity and all of that stuff. Like, they're propping that up and they're like, we're, we're done. in the wrong direction on all of this, and we're now ready to embrace how are we going to become a more inclusive

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: includes everybody.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I ha, when I hang out with them. And, I'll do the, [00:43:00] uh, since Owl was young, um, I did the build days at the high school, um, where we built like two or three times a year. and I hang out, you hang out with the kids, you teach 'em how to, you know, you use a screw gun and like how you're making stuff and we build shit for 'em.

But you're hanging out with these kids. And, it makes me like just knowing them and hanging out with owl's friends and stuff like that, that we're gonna be okay. Like,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: like that generation that they're so much better they may, there may be hitches that they find in the way they were, they went, they all went through the pandemic, you know, and

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: it was weird and that shit.

But I, but my, my overall feeling, and I'm a glass half full almost a hundred percent of the time too. Um, is that they're gonna figure it out.

Mike P: I agree a hundred percent. Man, I'm

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: I feel so full of hope. I'm [00:44:00] encouraged by young people and I just feel the energy, because we're gonna get old and, 

Sam: Get,

Mike P: yeah. And we're,

Mike: Gonna,

Sam: that to my back.

Mike P: Right, right. Yeah.

Mike: yeah.

Mike P: Yeah, I am also filled with encouragement and hope, man. And I think that this current presidential era is a gift to those kids, just to pour a little gasoline on their fires, you

Sam: I've always felt that it was kind of like, you know, the way a forest fire, like, makes things grow after, you know what I

Mike: You know what I mean?

Sam: it, it's,

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: it had to happen, you know?

Mike P: a hundred percent. Yep.

Sam: we'll be stronger for it, hopefully. It's a pendulum.

Mike: My, Yeah, but here's my, this is my like 2 cents thing that I've said a million different times. look, sitting from the chair that I'm sitting in, it's really fucking easy for me to say this. I appreciate that. To the degree that I, that I can, right?

Only to the degree that I can. I just want to say that it's real easy when you're not [00:45:00] part of a marginalized, targeted, oppressed fucking, you know, demographic. So, I, I say this with all due respect and acknowledgement of entitlement that. when it swings and there's an inevitable swing back.

My only hope, and you guys have pretty much been saying a lot of this, where you're kind of taking the best bits from the last generation and trying to marry them with the bits going forward. as long as there's some progress and we know that it's gonna take a step back, but, 

to borrow a cliche, but to twist it a little bit, I get that if you take two steps forward, there's gonna be a pushback, but I hope the pushback is only one step, and that by the time that you take the next two steps from that pushback, you're at least one or two ahead of where you were when the pushback came.

Do you know what I'm trying to say? So even though the pendulum swinging back and forth, I don't always love leaving it at that because my real hope, the, it's not just that, it's my hope, my disappointment would come if [00:46:00] once it's done swinging its cycle once forward and once back, and then once forward again.

I hope that it's a little bit more forward than the last time swung forward.

Sam: yeah,

Mike: you know what I mean? And, that the, the progress, there's never not going to be pushback, but that the progress always stays a little bit ahead of what the pushback managed to accomplish

Mike P: Well, I

Mike: the reaction.

Mike P: the laws of momentum suggest that that is the

Mike: I hope that's, I hope it's true, man.

Sam: and I mean, and, I'm not suggesting like, know, sit back and watch the Bourne movies, you know, and wait for it to move.

Mike: Of course, of course.

Sam: driving around. I,

Mike: It takes active participation. Yes, of course. Of course.

Sam: other, this is like a month ago or a month and a half ago. I drove past cops, what I thought were cops raiding this laundromat on Broadway in Somerville. And I was like, wait, what was that? Like? I couldn't do anything 'cause it didn't say ice.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I wanted to stop. And I was like, fuck. but what if that's a real, real cops doing a real

Mike: Mm-hmm. [00:47:00] Mm-hmm.

Sam: I was, okay, like I need to be prepared in my head, like for what I'm gonna do the next time. So I go to Home Depot and as I'm coming outta Home Depot, I always go this back road. And then behind Home Depot, I saw those same cops. With their masks off talking to each other. They like

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: and I was like, God damnit, if I had just like, had my camera out and just

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: him, I could put that shit on, you know?

Like

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and the first time it happened, when that girl at Tufts, I dunno

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: that

Mike: Oh, yeah.

Sam: was one of

Mike: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: drove by there four times that day. And I kept asking myself, what would you do?

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: me that,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: the hell would you do? I was like,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I'd do something.

Mike: Yeah. But you're thinking about it.

Sam: it's more

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: forward thing.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I'm a white dude, like, what are they gonna do? Like

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: lock me up, but like

Mike: Yeah. You'll bounce back from it. You'll bounce back from it

Sam: Exactly,

Mike: as opposed to somebody who can't and won't. [00:48:00] Um, yeah.

Sam: my opportunity Like, like it's

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: to fucking do something when I see something

Mike: Yeah.

Mike P: I'd like to ask a question, Mike, and this,

Mike: Uh

Mike P: be, might be sensitive. And, and if, and if you don't want to go down this path, we can a edit it out and not go down this path and, or you can simply refuse to respond. But I'm, it just came up in, in my consciousness. And I want to circle back to you were talking about how necessary the forest fire is sometimes, And forest fires come in various forms in our lives, and for you, a forest fire came. When your closest ally and, confidant and best friend decided to commit suicide, 

Sam: Yeah,

Mike P: we lost Ian Kennedy because Ian Kennedy apparently, um, allowed what he couldn't do, with what he could do.

Sam: sure.

Mike P: And, and so I'm wondering, like, ha have you, I know you have, but what [00:49:00] can you share with us about has there been any reflection on that and what did you gain in terms of how you are gonna move forward with your life, and maybe even with your kids or whatever from that, with regard to this mindset, this maxim.

Sam: Um, that's a really good question and I don't mind answering it. Um, I don't mind, I never mind talking about it. And that's kind of where I was gonna go with this right now, is that about it is like so right after he died, um, I think he was almost ready to mix the last reverse record.

Mike P: Right.

Sam: Quinn and I went in and Matthew Ard offered to do it for free, and I love Matthew's. You know, he mixed it and sitting there listening to it, and then selling the records. So the records, people came to my house to get albums. Um, Nicole, who does all the artwork around here, she's a big band, uh, [00:50:00] proponent. And, um, she paid for, she wanted vinyl, so people had to come to my house. I shipped them to some people, but people came to my house to get 'em. And it was like everybody's chance for therapy. 

Mike: Hmm. 

Sam: there was this one, one guy who's uh, still, I'm gonna actually go see him play tomorrow night. Uh, who was like, dude, I deal with depression. and we had this heavy conversation in my kitchen

Mike P: Hmm.

Sam: around this record, and it, it dawned on me even just now how many and what I told you about this other person that I just ran into whose brother 

committed suicide and how I, he says I helped him.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: And so I'm like,

Mike P: What

Sam: did,

Mike P: way. What

Sam: did Ian's dying?

Mike P: Yeah.

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: dying make it possible to save more lives?

Mike: Yeah.

Mike P: absolutely.

Mike: it forward theme is coming back a few times in this conversation.

Sam: [00:51:00] Yeah. And I mean, that was the whole thing. And I told all of them like, dude, I have time for you if you 

Mike: Mm-hmm. 

Sam: to talk. I, and I, you know, like I always thought about like, most of our friends, you know, went through a huge problem with drinking and I never felt like I could help anybody 'cause I never drank.

Do

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: is like, well, if they don't know any more about it than I do.

Mike P: that's right.

Sam: You know what I mean? and I felt like though, about the drinking thing, like I couldn't help because I didn't understand it.

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: it is just, you're being human. You probably could have helped, but who's going to, you know, that's part of the thing is like, well, what the fuck do you know about it?

And I was like, yeah,

Mike: Yeah. But that's where it goes back to the soft skills of being who you are. You are empathetic, you know, um, to Sam's ability to take the soft skills and transfer them just to different situations. Right. It's like you are who you are. Yeah.

Sam: right?

Mike P: point out too that, and that [00:52:00] really the most healing, mechanism put into play here was that these people who were interested in having this record were forced to come to you physically

Mike: Hmm.

Mike P: and, and, and interact with

Mike: And interact with you. Yeah.

Mike P: purchase this record. I love that. I love that they couldn't order it online.

I love that they had to come and have a conversation with you because had they not, those conversations would've never happened. And so the real mechanism here, the real, most healing mechanism of all was the forced scenario of personal interaction how

much 

Sam: back to

Mike P: by that and how much they gained by that. And I love that. 

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. 

Mike P: occurred.

Sam: right. And, and you're right, it,

Mike P: a great way to honor Ian's Sloss.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: Totally.

Sam: and it's still happening. I like, I, I can't believe that. Just what, you know, like the, the conversation that we had. [00:53:00] The other day, and, and one of the things is the, not blaming the person 'cause that's what you do 

Mike: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: I can't tell you how many people were like, the dude had a daughter.

What a selfish asshole. It's like,

Mike: Uh.

Sam: my brother, my brother was the one who was like, you. These people have no idea. that has nothing to do with it. Like, none of what's the wonderful things you have around you? He's like, it's like stranger things. He's like, it's like you're in the upside down.

Mike P: Mm-hmm.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and there's none of that bullshit that you, you know, the logic that you think works is going to even work in there.

And when you know that it makes, makes it not better, but it makes you empathize that person and go, oh, the fuck do

Mike: Well, it re, well, it removes, it removes the judgment, it removes the ability to be judgmental about it, because you realize that like, you have no [00:54:00] idea. And to your point, um, it transcends logic.

Sam: right,

Mike: And so, so, and when you realize that you stop playing the game and just be there, just be, you know?

Yeah.

Mike P: transcend logic.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: Yep.

Sam: And, and it's, it's kind of like, it's, it's okay, you know, like,

it, it's, it's life, taking its course and yeah, that sucks, but a lot of shit sucks.

Mike P: Mm-hmm.

Sam: know, like, and that was a big thing, like when my mom got divorced, people in, especially in fucking Kenosha, Wisconsin, gave her these books.

Like, when bad things happen to good people, it's like, fucking bad things happen to everybody all the time. Get over yourself. Like

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: you, you've had a really gifted life where nothing bad has happened until just now, like, you know.

Mike P: I will say this though, talking about the upside down, talking, making that comparison, which is a brilliant comparison. Um, but depression a real sickness,

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: and depression can occur [00:55:00] for a million reasons, and in any, in any life, you know what I mean? it's not, uh, uh, specific to or exclusive to any particular criteria.

You know what I mean? It's

Sam: Right,

Mike: Hmm.

Mike P: you know, and boy, as a person who has suffered, you know, what would be considered clinic clinical depression. It really is like being in the upside down, man, it really affects your cognitive strengths. It

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: really diminishes your ability to perform in process even the most basic, things.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: I, I narrowly escaped,

Sam: Right.

Mike P: uh, severe depression and god knows where that would've led had I not, uh, had the resources of mindfulness coaches and people who kind of, intervened with me and helped me kind of get my feet back under me and count breaths and slow

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: you know what I mean?

And, um, boy, uh, [00:56:00] really is a very scary. Our body, that pendulum that we have, our body is, is capable of taking us to the moon or helping us jump over high jumps, but it's also capable

Mike: Taking you back in the other direction. Yeah.

Mike P: under the

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: I have a question for you, Sam, because I think about you and, and think about somebody like Ian. I, I know like you've always been somebody who wears your heart on your sleeve. Like, I, I feel like you feel the world

Mike P: Mm-hmm.

Sam: not afraid to say so, and you're not afraid to talk about it and all that stuff.

So, where I know that Ian just kind of went through like, you, you never knew anything

Mike P: Yeah.

Sam: and, what, so what was that like for you as a person who's like empathetic and very emotional to like, go through that? I don't know what I'm asking, but I, I see a difference.

Mike P: So go through [00:57:00] depression, you

Sam: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike P: Yeah.

Sam: moral on the Ian side, like quiet, you know? Probably wouldn't talk about it where you're, I feel like Did you, did you talk about it with people?

Mike P: I did. And I think that, think the gift for me, the forest fire that occurred when my mother died, like I mentioned

Sam: Right.

Mike P: really helped me develop a more kind of, uh, acute set of tools to. To find and to access resource, you know what I mean, as a

Sam: Yeah, yeah,

Mike P: So, you know, even though I did have those kind of refined tools, you know, and being able to be open and share and be empathetic and all of that kind of stuff are, those are just, those are just tools.

Those are just consequences of work, of, of needing to have resource as a young person. So I developed that tool set, you know what I mean? So, yeah, when I did, when I did find myself in the throes of depression, and which surprised me just as much as finding [00:58:00] myself in the throes of alcoholism surprised me.

I'm like, wait a minute. I can't, I'm addicted. What is this? You know what I mean? And, and, but when I found myself in the throes of, of depression, it had gotten really extreme before I realized, oh my goodness, I'm, I'm experiencing depression. It had gotten. Devastating. You know what I mean? And thankfully I had, again, I had bolstered kind of

Sam: Right.

Mike P: that, that set of tools as a younger person.

So I, I knew exactly how to reach out and, and how to trigger other people to, to come and help me and intervene.

Sam: Were they tandem the drinking and, and the depression or were, and, but they were separate, like, 'cause sometimes you.

Mike P: For me, it was a perfect storm of a bunch of things. I, I closed a business and divorced my second wife and, and became financially devastated and, uh, [00:59:00] ended up living alone in a small apartment, you know? And. and then started dating a girl who I got really, really into really quickly, and then she dumped me and ghosted me. All of those things happened, you know,

Sam: Oh wow.

Mike P: six months, eight months time. And that,

Sam: I, 

Mike P: I, you know, I, I, I ended up it, you know, I ended up spending many, many, many days including a Christmas holiday, sitting in a dark studio apartment by myself rocking back and forth and counting my breaths all day long so I could

Mike: Hmm.

Mike P: get through to the next minute. You know

Sam: holy shit.

Mike P: Yeah. And that was really scary.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike P: trans transcendental, uh, uh,

Mike: Tm. Mm-hmm.

Mike P: is a lifesaver. It is a great,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: a great technique to learn if you want to survive the impossible.

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: Wow.

Mike P: Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: Damn. [01:00:00] That's heavy

Mike P: Anyways. I mean, that's,

Mike: Anyways.

Sam: anyways.

Mike P: but that's, I, that was something that I could do, you know what I mean? And

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: literally

Sam: Right.

Mike P: and that's exactly, that's, it's great, you know, it's kind of relevant to this maxim because it's like that. There were those

Mike: Mm.

Mike P: where everything felt impossible

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: and

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: left, you're left with one thing that you can do.

You're 

Mike: Wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Mike P: is, is that you can close your eyes. You can count one breath in and count one breath out.

Mike: yeah.

Mike P: to do that to

Mike: And everything.

Mike P: something, be able to remind yourself

Mike: Yeah.

Mike P: visceral way, I just achieved something.

Mike: Yeah.

Mike P: I just brought intention to

Sam: Wow.

Mike P: it. 

Mike: Yeah. It's a wild combination of enough and also everything at the same time.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: fucking wild.

Mike P: Yeah.

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: It's crazy. You [01:01:00] made it through that.

Mike P: and breath is foundational, you know what I mean?

Mike: Yeah,

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: totally.

Mike P: know, so it's really, it's, it's,

Mike: That's heavy, dude. Yeah.

Mike P: where, it's where each and every one of us needs to, with intention,

Mike: Return to.

Mike P: uh, prophylactically. We need to return to

Mike: To return to. Yeah. Yeah,

Mike P: to

Mike: yeah.

Mike P: We need to turn our phones off and our televisions off for 10 minutes every day

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: return to breath.

Yeah,

Mike: 

Mike P: I want to do what I always do

Mike: Uhhuh.

Mike P: and one of these days we're gonna be on one of these calls with someone I don't know. I look forward to that because, my exit strategy will be, more challenged,

Sam: Right.

Mike P: to, but today I feel compelled to say a couple of things on record. Um, and one of them is Mike. I've always wanted to tell you, and I think I kind of did on our phone call the other day when we reconnected, which I'm loved that this podcast was a [01:02:00] mechanism for us to reconnect. Um, but I think I wanna just share with you out loud that, I have just really gained so much by my friendship with you, and I did back before I had the, the language to share, uh, just how effective you were in my life.

And I want to do that now, uh, where I had neglected to do that and just tell you that it hasn't gone unnoticed. what a selfless and sensitive person you are. It was, I I I held you on high like a big brother back in Boston when I knew you. Uh, and I still feel that way about you.

I hold you in that light. I, I've always seen you as, as, as a big brother and someone who

Sam: Wow.

Mike P: inspired by. 

if you've ever had moments where you felt fragile or you felt vulnerable, please know that the people around you, have seen you as a rock or a tree

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: know what I mean? Uh,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: thank you. I, I appreciate that. But, but now you know that it comes from somewhere[01:03:00] 

Mike P: yeah.

Sam: it was, it, like I, whatever blessed I, it was a gift and it,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: it's, and I tried to pay that forward.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Mike P: Yeah.

Sam: I'm aware of it um, I don't take it for granted, you

Mike: Awesome.

Sam: it is, whatever the, the strength of the love that I was given the way I took it, you know, I don't, I don't know, but it came from somewhere like it was built.

It was, it was taught, taught to me or innate. I don't think it was necessarily innate. I think it was the, you know, and I, I'm, we'll see. We'll see what my kids grow up to be like, 

Mike: I'm sure.

Yeah. Well, a as always, Sam, Sam always wraps better than than I do. So all of that, but I, I want to say that I, I am grateful

Sam: Huh?

Mike: is. I, I know. And then how do you follow that shit? You know what I mean? So it's basically, you know, in a nutshell, I'm grateful that we had this opportunity to connect and, and, and similarly but less directly engaged.

I always admired you from a [01:04:00] distance. Uh, we never really directly engaged. And so now I realize, especially after this conversation, that it, it wasn't, uh, it wasn't misguided or ill-informed,

Sam: no,

Mike: know, there's something behind it. So, and here it is, you know.

Sam: Like I

Mike: thanks dude, I appreciate that. Oh, I appreciate that.

Hey, it's Sam and Mike, and we appreciate you coming on this journey with us today. We hope that if you enjoyed it, you'll tell a friend, or better yet, share a link to this podcast and let your community know directly how it impacted you. That would really help us reach more listeners just like yourself.

Thanks again for listening today. Feel free to email us at info@maximeqpodcast.com and share some favorite maxims, adages cliches that maybe we should consider for future episodes or perhaps just leave a kind message, maybe some feedback. Till next time, make it a great [01:05:00] day.

Mike: ​