Depth Over Frequency

In this episode, Sam and I are joined by Jarmal Arnold to explore the idea of Depth Over Frequency—a reflection on what we stand to gain when we slow down, go deeper, and resist the constant pull of surface-level engagement.

In a world optimized for speed, metrics, and endless scrolling, we’re often encouraged to value frequency over meaning: more posts, more hot takes, more noise. But what happens when we choose depth instead? When we prioritize fewer inputs, more substantive conversations, and ideas that take time to unfold? At the same time, the conversation also examines whether frequency is always just about quantity—or if it can hold a different kind of value when approached with intention.

Together, the three unpack how our relationship with information, attention, and output shapes not only what we consume, but how we think, create, and connect. The episode invites listeners to consider where choosing quality over quantity can lead to greater clarity, creativity, and fulfillment.

Whether you’re feeling overwhelmed by information overload, craving more meaningful conversations, or simply curious about what it looks like to live a little less reactively, this discussion offers a calm, grounded perspective—and a reminder that sometimes, less really is more.

As always, thanks for listening and for being part of the Maxim EQ community.

Mike

Transcript

Depth Over Frequency
===

[00:00:00] Welcome to Maxim eq, where we explore the common sensical through individual interpretation at a time when the profound is too often reduced to cheap memes and goofy bumper stickers, we head in the opposite direction, digging deeper to examine the commonalities and differences in our perceptions around a particular adage.

In each episode, we'll discuss our guest take on a thought provoking maxim, designed to promote self-reflection and personal growth for us, but hopefully for you as well. Today we're joined by a fascinating young dude who's to me personally, family, uh, but to so many others, a pillar of inspiration, a teacher, a provider, and a superbly talented artist.

On top of many other things coming on today to discuss depth over frequency. And God, this should be a good one. Stick around. Hopefully you enjoy it as much as I do. Now Maxim EQ with Sam Wall and me, [00:01:00] Mike Baumer.

Mike: this was probably one of the first combination of words that I documented when I started making notes. 

and it wasn't anything particularly complex. I mean, it was, you know, a rewording essentially of, quality over quantity, you know? And, I already know that that's my preference 

For a lot of different things, whether it's relationships or, subjects that I may choose to try to learn about or whatever, right? So it was just as much of me just going on record to myself, you know what I mean? And just writing down something that I've always, I've always felt, but [00:02:00] I didn't necessarily see it as overly cryptic or abstract, 

So that's why I'm curious to hear Jarmal's take and reaction to it.

Sam: yeah. so I'm excited about today. 

I do think that today's maxim is, so just rudimentary and fundamental and as a result, just at the moment in, in my personal life, poignant to so many factors, so many things so many interdisciplinary things that are important to me currently,

Mike: Ooh, yay. Well, I hope you'll bring them up while we're talking.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: I mean, I hope the opportunity's there.

Sam: Yeah.

So our guest today is Jarmal Arnold. and, uh, a, he's a really interesting guy. He, he grew up in, inner city Baltimore, and has relocated his life to rural Vermont. And likely a whole interesting kind of story around how he [00:03:00] arrived there. 

but I know that he's worked with, at risk youth in an institutional and in an at home environment. 

he wears a lot of hats. He's

Mike: Gotcha.

Sam: of

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: he's just a really, uh, thoughtful spiritual person. he's also more recently in his life, discovered a passion for fine art photography. yeah. And he is got a little bit of a web presence now, uh, showcasing some of his photography work.

and I know he is on fire about that. Um, you

Mike: Cool.

Sam: I just think it's gonna be a really fun

Mike: I feel like there's a little bit of a common denominator in terms of guests that, we end up connecting with on the show in terms of having worn multiple hats. I think Jarmal might be on the, on the younger end of having, um,

Sam: Hmm.

Mike: accumulated those hats than some of our other guests, but,

Sam: My impression is, is that Jarmal's the kind of young man that got started really young,

Mike: [00:04:00] Hmm.

Sam: uh, discovering versions of himself,

Mike: Love it.

Sam: and I think you'll feel the same way, but we should go ahead and

Mike: I just did.

How y'all doing?

Sam: welcome to Maxim EQ, Jarmal Arnold,

Mike: Welcome.

Sam: such a

Jarmal: you.

Sam: to have you today. I was doing my best to share with Mike b, just kind of like a cursory introduction about like where you come from and who you are. 

that you're currently living and working on a farm with Susu Community Farm, I know that, especially more recently in your life, you're, working prolifically, uh, with fine art photography. And I know that that's something that occupies a lot of your space and that you're sharing some of that publicly, um, and that you're a dad. And a stepdad.

I know you as a incredibly spiritual and sentient person who has a beautiful heart and, and, uh, just always just so much insight and, um, nurturing to [00:05:00] offer other people. That's one of the reasons why I'm most excited to have you on to talk about this maxim here today. Um, 'cause I felt like you'd, you'd have a

Jarmal: Mm.

Sam: about, what it means to you. You know, we're here to talk about depth over frequency,

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: chose this maxim when you were presented with a list of maxims and you chose it really quickly. And I believe, if I'm

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: your very words were, I had a download about this, and I said,

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: then that's what we're

Mike: Great.

Sam: Yeah. So,

Mike: So what, what was it

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Mike: this one that resonated with you, um, that quickly?

Jarmal: It's, it was a simple thing. Um, my daily life, you know, revolves around being, being present, being available, and listening. And that's just what my eyes went to first. I skimmed through the, the message, which I often do, and that's what popped out [00:06:00] depth over frequency. Um, and, and the lead up to this show. I intentionally do not try to put too much of my mind or my human effort in, in the place of, of being available and being able to listen, if you will, you know, to see what really wants to come through.

Um, and when my mind at times wanted to try to break that down before this show, I was like. You know, better than that. So I'm available, I'm here, you know, um, and the intentions are set, so we'll see what wants to come through.

Sam: I love

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I did a little bit of, meditation last night on this topic, it didn't take but a few minutes of kind of just clearing my mind and allowing also, um, own feelings and influences to kind of arrive my consciousness about what this means. And I, I kind of [00:07:00] that it means so much it's, it's really, a very present, interdisciplinary, principle arriving in multiple facets of my life right now. first and foremost, Being new. I I recently moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan like a couple years ago, and, it kind of threw my professional life and professional efforts into a little bit of chaos and was, you know, uh, real estate here in, in, in Michigan. But I was licensed and had a, a, you know, decent community and pipeline of business in Chicago prior to moving here.

And I thought, well, how am I gonna, I feel like I'm starting over here in this new community, in this small town. And, not being in a. that I really can control. A, the markets B, the level at which I'm able to be instantly successful in engaging in [00:08:00] business.

And I can't control where and how leads flow to me and all that kind of stuff. But what I could control the quality of the relationships that I began to cultivate instantly upon arrival here. And so I've really focused on that. that kind of shows up for me with this maxim it felt when I started kind of doing a little bit of searching about some literature on this particular, this idea, this maxim, um, I felt really validated in that.

Like, I, I, I had kind of arrived on that my own, that like, I just needed to slow down, be patient. myself in a, on a path of availability, vulnerability, uh, and possibility, and just let new relationships cultivate, arrive, and become authentic, like organically in my new community. You know? Uh, and that's really what I've been focused on, and it's starting to pay off because I feel [00:09:00] like, uh, investing in

Jarmal: Mm.

Sam: over quantity or frequency I think is, is where it's at, you know? Uh, and that's, now two years in living here. Like, I, I take inventory every day and I look around me and I've got this amazing community of really meaningful relationships with, neighbors, tradespeople that are relevant to what I do for a living. Um. now clients, but most importantly, these are evergreen relationships.

These are relationships that have lasting and return power, you know? Um, so it's really paying off. And, you know, for me, that's kind of what popped into my mind first, Mike. Mm-hmm.

Mike: Well, well, thank you for sharing that. First and foremost, I don't, I think we're, we're. alignment there, especially as it relates to relationships. I mentioned this to you before Jarmal hopped on and joined us, which was, look, I've always prioritized depth over [00:10:00] frequency, right? But, when I started more formally documenting some thoughts or trying to translate them into phrases that, might be a little bit more abstract, this is probably one of the lesser abstract ones. so I think it was more of just about going on record with myself particularly as it relates to relationships and also just knowledge, that I was gonna prioritize or continue to prioritize depth over frequency or quality over quantity, that kind of thing. So Like I said, I don't think it's super profound. Again, it was just more of like a, a recommitment to myself that I'd always felt that way. But now I was acknowledging it and I was becoming a little bit more mindful of it. And this is something that we talked about in a previous episode, if you want to put it in the context of an attention economy, you know, which Lysa brought up actually.

[00:11:00] Right? It's, again, I kind of feel like I'm re-upping the ante on not letting myself be distracted by the superficial quantity and to use a little bit more discipline and self-control to focus on the more substantive depth of relationships and, um, what I was going to commit my bandwidth to. Yeah.

Sam: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: yeah.

Sam: Little background on, on what, one thing he just referenced is that we had, a guest, Lisa Mosca, on a previous episode, and she was here to discuss a maxim that I feel like kind of really segued or if not answered by this one. And that was, welcome the noise for therein. One might find the, the signal,

so we ended up kind of talking a lot about, like, about discernment and about, Not allowing noise to happen at you, but [00:12:00] becoming one with, you know, uh, you

Mike: But the interesting thing in that is it almost does require some frequency, right? 'cause if you're gonna welcome the noise, you're allowing some of that quantity to come in so that you don't miss out on the quality that might have been buried in it somewhere. So there's a, there's also a little bit of a, I don't wanna say disconnection necessarily, but a little bit of a discourse between those two ideas.

Sam: yeah,

Mike: Jarmal, jump in.

Sam: In. Yeah. Where's your heart, man? 

Mike: Where's

this taking you? 

Jarmal: Yeah, I'm, I'm grateful to, to listen to y'all's perspectives. 'cause you know, when I, when I looked at the word, I'm like, there's something else here. You know, even the way that it's situated depth over frequency, you know, over frequency, and to hear how y'all connected to frequency. When I, when I feel into frequency, it is more of a, a vibration.

You know, what, what sort of, how can I say? Like, even the word [00:13:00] distractions. It's funny that you, you brought that up because I, I recommitted to myself a week ago when it comes to my, my frequency. I said, you know what, I'm gonna give myself a year to really lean into my craft and into my purpose. You know, Sam brought this up a minute ago when the camera came into my life, and that's a whole nother story and how that unfolded.

I will say this, though, my come to find out, which I had never known my grandmother, my mother's mom was a film photographer, and that never came through. That was never shared with me. But, you know, at that crossroads in my life and the way that this work has impacted me, again, you know, I, I said, you know what?

I'm gonna, I'm gonna give myself a year. I'm gonna cut down on the distraction. So that, in a way, connects to frequency. And again, when I look at those words, it's like depth over frequency. What that says to me, what else is, what are the other things [00:14:00] that are present in that? What are the other things that want to come through?

And it even connects to what Sam was saying as far as relationship. I felt like what I was hearing was faith, you know, showing up to a new space, showing up to a new place. The chaos that that can bring. And where you have arrived, where you are now with that, you know, that does take some, some slowness and some time and some faith and some belief.

We see that every day here. You know, we, we prioritize relationship and we build a culture around relationship, specifically with our ancestors. The, the generations that came before us that we're now standing on the shoulders of, and then secondly, the earth. And then, you know, obviously we're all connected then the people.

So it's just interesting because even when, you know, literally our neighbors and, and it's, it's been an interesting journey to just [00:15:00] leave this bubble that we've created to go out into the world every day. Um, even where we're situated, we're situated. Like this, it's literally a, it's this ancestral bubble, you know, with the river at our backs, the whole span of the land.

So when we leave, you know, my frequency or my ability to have depth in the things I do in my home space, you know, I'm not surprised that I, I, I choose not to really be in the way the world is and the way that it's kind like we've never, I, I know for me and, and my wife and the way we build community, we've never really resonated with that.

I know I haven't, since I was little, I've always kind of had that, that like skeptical eye to a lot of the things I was told growing up. And I just was like, that doesn't really, it doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't resonate. So all in all, yeah, it's like depth over frequency. Is it over it? I don't know.

I don't, I don't feel [00:16:00] like it is. I feel like they're one and there's something else that wants to communicate

Mike: Yeah.

Jarmal: something.

Sam: yesterday I saw this, um, written in long form with the, the symbol for greater than, as opposed to

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: And that, that resonated with

Jarmal: Yep.

Sam: made more sense to me. It was

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: is greater than, or more important than frequency. Um, and so I want to kind of extrapolate on where you were just at Jarmal.

'cause I, I think there's a great deal of interest in one thing that you, that you brought up, especially for me, um, and you were talking about kind of. Holding space or creating space and patience for cultivation to take place. Right. And I love that word. I love, always love the word cultivation.

And cultivation does, does require, um, mindfulness and bringing intent and purpose to, to allowing things to germinate, to grow, to become. Right. can you tell us a little bit about [00:17:00] like, the work that, just for the listener's sake, because I know some stuff, but, and I think Mike might know a little bit

Jarmal: Hmm.

Sam: but can you tell us a little bit about like Susu community farms and like where you guys are working, what you're doing there, what you're cultivating, and just refer back to your, you were talking a little bit about kind of ob observing some ancestral stuff that was at the root or the heart of what you guys are doing.

Can you talk about that a little bit just so people know what you're talking about?

Jarmal: Yeah, sure it is. So the intention of this, um, was to have a better relationship with the food that we eat, um, that was at the root of it and. Creating a culture where, you know, conflict can arise. Um, having certain things in place culturally that we don't see in the world, again, around co conflict, around, um, making decisions like all the things we see in our lives, but creating a culture that tends to those [00:18:00] things and, and really does require a lot of integrity and a lot of authenticity.

So, because, we live on this land, we sleep on this land, we work on this land there, it's, it's just a big mirror. There is nowhere to run. There is nowhere to hide all of your things and all of this stuff. For myself, I can say all of my childhood lived experiences and or traumas, you know, um, I'm grateful thatI've been available to arrive here, to be here, to be present.

But Susu in, its, in its intention, was to grow food and provide food for brown and black families in southern Vermont, uh, for free. You know, that. So we have a CSA and that's kind of the bulk of our programming. Um, I led a lot of, I have led a lot of youth programming as well. Um, so, you know, anywhere is between 20, 30 to 70 kids at one point from different inner city [00:19:00] schools, community schools to come by and touch the river, touch the water, uh, look at seeds, um, create, um, medicine or make medicine with different herbs that we grow.

Um, and I felt like I'm super grateful for the piece that the medicine that I'm clear about, that I walk with, as you mentioned before, is working with youth. So to have youth come here and not be in a building and not have the ceiling over their head with fluorescent lights, to have the sky over their head to have the grass on their.

feet To be able to go for walks and talk about some of the things that they're currently processing or some of the things that they are having some challenges with. You know, it's been, it, that to me is like, um, you know, the root of what I offer. We also have connection to many elders from traditions that we practice, spiritual traditions that we practice, that we've sat with, we've done ceremony with on this land.

You know, so as I said to Amber yesterday, you can't, you can't [00:20:00] knock on the ancestors' door. You can't stomp your feet and clap your hands and call the, the ancestors forward and think that they're not gonna bring you a mirror. They're gonna bring you a mirror, you know, so the trees are a mirror. The river's a mirror, the sky's a mirror.

And that's been my experience here. It's just been giving me, you know, so much depth and, and frequency, a certain frequency to really be real about myself.

Mike: you share a little bit about like

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Mike: more, Some of the experiences that have affected you the most and fed you the most and kind of influenced your growth the most as it relates to getting to experience. I'm gonna misquote you, but you know, getting some of those kids, getting some of that youth out from underneath the fluorescent light and more in touch with the land and connected to your environment and just observing the effect that it had on them, either or both in real time. And I would imagine that you've stayed in touch with or developed a, an ongoing [00:21:00] relationship with some of them, um, how that's affected their life experience. 

Jarmal: Yeah, I would, I would, you know, I have to be real and speak from my, my belly and my root. Um, you know, my family is the one of the biggest, um. I guess connection points around memory, my children and my wife. Um, because, you know, for, for a long time, you know, even from when I was young, I knew I had this connection with youth.

Like I just had a certain energy that attracted youth and they felt safe around me. They trusted me, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but for so long, you know, I spent so many years giving, giving, giving, giving, giving to the world, and I would come home and I would just completely flatline. You know, I wasn't really available for my own family.

And, you know, I feel like there's medicine and being able to take care of yourself and really show up for yourself and your own backyard, so to speak. Um, [00:22:00] and really get rooted in that so that way when you're in the community and you're in these, these different situations, you can really be available and you'll tap into things that the brain won't connect to.

It's all intention or it's all intuitive. Primarily, like that's a superpower, I believe, is our ability to connect to our intuition, because there'll be things that you will just feel into that you could have never planned. So when it comes to the youth and the connections and, the many moments of just like, this is why I do this.

Um, the emails, the, the sending love letters in the, in the mail to the farm, and thank you for, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And watching kids just jump up and down and roll around on the ground.

Mike: That's great.

Jarmal: And also just having, like,

Mike: Yeah.

Jarmal: having big emotions, you know, I've seen, I've seen them get super comfortable with me and, you know, we kind of peeled through those layers of

Sam: yeah. I

Jarmal: programming, you know, how they're made to show up in[00:23:00] 

Sam: Yeah.

Jarmal: and so on and so forth.

You really get to some really beautiful stuff.

Sam: I love that you're facilitating. Those opportunities for kids to get away from the distractions and to touch organic things and to allow that to unpack ideas, new inspirations, um, and maybe even connect with stuff that's, that resides in them.

That's very

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I mean, that's part of what you just mentioned too, which I love that. And I've, um, you have led me in the past to take consideration, to slow down and hear my past and hear my legacy of ancestry and my heart and in my consciousness. And, I think that's totally in line with this maxim, like, you know, um, depth

Mike: Yeah, it's like a lineage depth, you know, 

Jarmal: Yeah, we, we walk, we walk with that. I just add this at the, [00:24:00] at the end of what you said, brother. Um, we walk with that every day and, and we have the opportunity to have those considerations, to listen to those things. Um, yeah, it's, it's otherworldly for sure, and it's, it's, it's pretty amazing when I've experienced it, when I've really have shown up and been available to, to hear and to be in that, because it, it can be uncomfortable.

So Lineage Indeed.

​

​

Sam: This is

Jarmal: Yep.

Sam: just to, to switch gears if you, it is okay. Mike, are

Mike: Sure. Yeah. 

Sam: okay. Yeah. Just switch gears into a 

Just switch gears into a different topic, perhaps. I mean, not really, 'cause it's kind of hard to depart entirely from what we're talking about. But, you know, we were talking recently, when I say we, my wife and I, making some travel plans and, and maybe trying to get away, um, you know, in [00:25:00] this. current, uh, paradigm that we're living in, we, we are forced to, uh, indulge in, in the pleasures of, controlling or piloting the very things that we can and to letting go of attachments to things that we don't have any control over. And so we're trying to create pleasures in our life and, and enrich our life in ways that we can control.

And, you know, for me, it's kind of shown up in my, in my heart that travel, uh, important. for the sake of experience, for the sake of experiencing other cultures, getting away from this. that I'm all too immersed in and going overseas and I want to go, I want my life to be enrichened by that experience, to go experience other cultures.

But you know, we start talking about making travel plans and, and sometimes it's like, well, if we're gonna get over to that part of the world, we should really see this and we should see that and we should see this. And we start [00:26:00] like you know, if we're gonna be in Southeast Asia, I want to go to Cambodia, I want to go to Vietnam, I want to blah, blah, blah.

And then I'm like, but wait. What I really wanna do is I want to go live in PI Thailand or in place. I want to be there for like weeks and make

Mike: Yeah. Immerse yourself. Yeah.

Sam: immerse

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: And that's how I truly like fantasize and desire to travel. to observe

Mike: Yeah, quality over quantity. Yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: had a similar thing Kim and I had gone to on a long weekend to Arkansas to go to the, crystal Springs Museum, which is supposed to be really good. It was, it was okay.

Sam: yeah.

Mike: Um, but I found myself sitting there and it was a week after the election too, weekend after the election, and I had this draw to literally just pick a rando town in Japan it was unlikely that anyone was gonna speak English [00:27:00] to force myself to be uncomfortable, for a minute.

And like, just, just deal with it. I'm not gonna die. You know what I mean? And, uh, obviously I haven't executed on it, and there are some practical realities to pulling it off. But, but yeah, I suppose that would be another type of immersion, but I think at, at the root of it was to challenge myself to be uncomfortable and just get to the other side because been a little bit too comfortable for a little bit too long, you know?

Sam: that great Mark Twain adage that, uh, John Dykstra

Mike: Oh yeah. It's like travel is the antidote to ignorance or something like that, you know what I mean? To,

Sam: right,

Mike: it's like, well, of

Jarmal: Hmm.

Mike: like just meet other people. Oh, it's way better than that. And I'm not Mark Twain

Sam: but yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: very poorly read. So between those two things, that's what you get. 

Sam: And, and so, and so with that kind of segues for me, Jarmal, into, um, just an observation of like what you just shared about what you guys are doing out there on that piece of [00:28:00] land, because not all peoples have the privilege or the resources to travel. You know, traveling can be expensive. And, and so the kinds of things that people do that they can do, without resources to travel far and wide, you know what I mean?

Is to explore not only, what's next door, but to explore what's within, and I, I'm really moved by that. I'm moved by like how, how resourceful. You kids are being and, and creating just this vastness of opportunity both for yourselves and for the people that you're engaging.

Mike: to mention, I just wanna add real quick, you don't have to travel halfway around the world to put yourself in an environment that isn't the one that you're, you know, accustomed to being in. Just go back no further than bringing at risk inner city youth out to a farm in Vermont, right?

It didn't require traveling halfway across the world, [00:29:00] and it didn't require major funds, right?

Sam: Go, go no further sometimes than literally, uh, giving your ego the day off

Mike: Oh,

Sam: and just

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: to be authentic and vulnerable for a day and tell nothing but the truth for one day. Try

Mike: mm-hmm.

Sam: that in the context of your everyday life and say, you know what? Today I'm gonna go on an,

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: on an

Mike: There's lots of ways to be uncomfortable for a minute. Right.

Sam: gonna

Mike: Okay.

Sam: today

Mike: Yeah, yeah,

Sam: I'm

Mike: yeah.

Sam: the entire day truth forward. I'm gonna only tell the truth directly from my heart, unfiltered today and see what happens.

Mike: Go full Larry David for a

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Mike: just kidding. It's 

Sam: you know,

Mike: Yeah, it's, go

Sam: something,

Mike: ahead.

Sam: me that that's probably a fairly common practice for you. Jarmal, can you speak to that?

Jarmal: Literally every day. Um, I spend time with my ancestors every day, every morning. My practice is to set intentions for every day. [00:30:00] Let's say there's a morning where I'm just kind of, it's kind of chaotic and I'm in a rush. I still take that time. I love being in my car and just setting intentions for my day.

Um, like one of my elders told me, you know, he said, Jarmal, life doesn't happen to you. You happen to life. And what that connects to is your intentions. You know, you, you do have, we do have the ability to, to change the atmosphere around us. Um, again, connected to depth, frequency, intentionality. Taking time in the morning for me looks like this is how I want my day to go.

Um, and my ancestors align in those intentions. They work to support me from the other side.

Sam: Love

Jarmal: That's their job, you know, and a big part of that is speaking truth, a hundred percent. I don't love my people. I don't love myself. If I've gotten so comfortable with kind of like double dutching or, or kind of pump faking around what's [00:31:00] coming out of my throat chakra, like what I'm my words, uh, frequency, like those are very powerful things.

Words are very powerful. So, yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Sam: the soft reference of frequency to its relationship with literal sound and

Mike: mm-hmm.

Sam: frequency. I love that

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Mike: hoping that would come

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: me too. But every time I tried to force or to come up with a way to talk about that, I was falling short of the language. But I feel like you're integrating that so beautifully because I felt that too.

I'm like, frequency? Frequency. I think of like, think of. Physics, I think of

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I think of sound

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and, and wave. and it immediately brought me to, um, that adage that Chris shared that last time we were on with him. And he said, you know, when the tide comes in,

Mike: Oh, buzz fries. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: And, and thinking of like all of us [00:32:00] adhering to the integrity of the surface of the

Mike: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: and our ambience. And to me, that speaks somehow to this shared frequency, our shared consciousness. And

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: a, that's a big, uh, kind of one of my esoteric explorations of current, you know? Uh, but I have a hard time speaking about it because

Mike: You are good.

Sam: about trying to put language to it. You know,

Mike: yeah,

Sam: I'm a student,

Jarmal: Mm-hmm. Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah. And language is limiting too, you know? It can, it can be very limiting. Mm-hmm.

Sam: um, what, do you have anything teed up right now?

Mike: Um. Look, it's a little more superficial than the level that you guys were just going to, hence some more depth reference. But, two things really. One is it was more on the subject of turning inward a little bit, right? And I, I certainly feel like. [00:33:00] More recently than I've given to in the past that going deeper within, in other words, um, and this feels a little narcissistic for me, you know, to even acknowledge or to talk about, but getting to know myself better, a little more inward depth that investment has certainly, led to a more positive effect relationships and the value of the relationships that I have. Right? So I didn't use to consider aspect of depth because it felt too, again, narcissistic. But what I realized is that it feeding. The things that I do value, which is deeper connection to the people in my life and to, managing to continue to evolve those relationships. 

I believe that has been a [00:34:00] big part in keeping some of those relationships from turning stagnant, so that's what I was thinking about a couple of minutes ago as you guys were talking about inward. And so the irony in it

Jarmal: Hmm.

Mike: is that I think that the better I I've come to know myself, better a partner or parent or friend or coworker I can be to, the people that I cherish the most. You know?

Sam: hundred

Mike: So there is a little bit of irony in that for me.

And what I realized was, until I was willing to go a little deeper with myself, I probably wasn't making the most of those relationships, so that's what I was just thinking about.

Sam: You know, one thing I know that the three of us, all three of us have in common is, uh, we all three have family that live geographically far from us. We all have loved ones that live

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: us. You know, and another thing that we all three I know have in common is that we utilize, our modern tools to superficially stay in touch with people.

We [00:35:00] send pictures, we send text messages and all that kind of stuff. Currently, my sister. under my roof upstairs. She's here for a week. Um, I beckoned her here, um, because we were having a conversation on the phone just a month ago. Um, and we have an ongoing family thread, between me and my siblings and my dad, and, 

We're always sharing pictures and everybody knows what's

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: everyone's life. Right. You know? but I was having this conversation, which was kind of a next level of intimacy with my sister on the actual phone for the first time in a long time. And I said, you know, I said the, I can't remember when it was the last time I shared a space with you and looked directly into your eyes, uh, and had the privilege of experiencing some mundane passing of time with you. I'd, I'd give anything for that. And she's like. I'll just come visit and I said, why don't [00:36:00] you buy a ticket and just come visit? I'll buy one for you if you don't have the money.

Jarmal: Mm

Sam: like, oh, I can afford a ticket. And I said, buy a ticket. I literally checked in with her the next day.

She said, I bought a ticket. I'm coming to stay for a week in November. Are you available? And I said, of course I'm available. And so she,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and we're just, we didn't make any plans. We didn't really put anything on the calendar other than just spending time together. And we have just been waking

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: having

Jarmal: mm.

Sam: together each morning. And I feel the experience of an immense elevation in the closeness with my sister

Mike: It's,

Sam: of

Mike: and it's funny, and the depth is coming just from the sharing of space. It's not necessarily coming from any greater, exploration of, of deep topics or conversations, that kind of thing. Right. Just sharing that space.

Sam: There's frenetic shared energy and alchemy that [00:37:00] occurs when you are sharing a space with no attachments or expectations with another

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: And we all know this. And it's like the, the fact that we don't prioritize that with the people we love the

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: more, often. It doesn't, I guess

Mike: Yeah, 

Sam: matter 

Mike: fear of being cheesy. That's what they equate, like that's how you know there's love, right? Is that you can share that space in that way. Um, yeah.

Sam: yeah. But it takes familiarity in order to share silent space with somebody. It, you know, that's a vulnerability. And you

Jarmal: Hmm.

Sam: feel, you have to feel, you know, a, a, a certain level of unconditional love. and like you

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: Jarmal faith,

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: have, you have to, you have to arrive with some faith in that, that connectivity and that

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: you know, you can sit with somebody and, and just 

Mike: No, you don't need to fill that space with noise essentially, you know? 

Jarmal: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sam: thing, you know, that each of us can relate to, to a [00:38:00] certain extent. I'm guessing Mike not, I don't, I'm not so familiar with, I know that you don't use social media. I know that Jarmal recently has been using social media to share, um, his artwork. and I use it both for business and previously for creative sharing and stuff like that.

you know, I feel like there's so much recent study too, kind of like beginning to steer people towards less frequent. Posting and sharing and to,

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: take more time to cultivate like what they call evergreen

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: that have lasting power that people will return to. And, and you know what I mean?

And like that's a smarter, wiser way

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: build an audience is to put more thought and into kind of, maybe not necessarily longer form content,

Mike: Mm-hmm

Sam: dense with meaning and more dense, with thoughtful creation and, um, you know, being more curatorial and thoughtful about how and what you share as opposed to just providing an onslaught

Mike: Less empty [00:39:00] calories.

Sam: Right.

Mike: Uhhuh. Okay.

Sam: You know, but

Jarmal: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: I I guess the point that I'm sharing here too is that, that with, you know, with all the data and market research, it's like proven now that there's efficacy specifically in what we're talking about, you know,

Mike: Interesting.

Sam: from a connection and marketing standpoint

Mike: Do you think that people haven't lost touch or the ability to take the time to fully digest that content as opposed to the stuff that's much easier just to continuously scroll through? Because it doesn't require, any space to, to digest it.

Sam: I think both. And to

Mike: Okay.

Sam: Mosca, I think that we, we are all, uh, wrapped up in, or a lot, all of us, most of us are wrapped up in the, the kind of quick fix serotonin of like getting into the rabbit hole as they say. and, and going after that, like short, cheap, know, little, uh, entertainment engagements,

Mike: [00:40:00] Mm-hmm.

Sam: But I think that, How many times do you find yourself bookmarking something that really, that really hits you? then literally returning to that and like, those become, those are the people that I end up following. I know me

Mike: Okay.

Sam: people who like provide content that like resonates with me and causes me to think and go back and

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: you know what I mean?

And, um, and to me, that gives me a semblance or a feeling that I'm, I am developing a relationship with that person.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: There are people who I follow on social media who I feel like I have a relationship with. I really don't. But it's just, it, to me, it's a reflection of the quality of what they share

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: super engaged and again, returning in thought and literally to what they're sharing online.

And, and so it just takes it up a notch in the, in the relation, in the relationality, is that

Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it is. Yeah.

Sam: so I wanted to ask you, Jarmal, um. When you're having an internal [00:41:00] dialogue about, um, as an artist, let's switch gears and talk about you as an artist right now I would love to hear a, and this is just kind of selfishly motivated.

I, I wanted to give you an opportunity, if you're interested in doing this, to talk a little bit about your process as a photographer and kinda like what's, I don't know, man, what's getting you right now? Like, what's motivating you? What's, what's, uh, engaging you, And, what's your process?

Jarmal: Yeah, it is. It is what we all experience in life. Um, I listen, uh, again, I'm, I'm available. Uh, you know, life. Right now for me is, is focused on, like we talked about, family, our nonprofit and those things. And I have a crazy amount of support. I'm so grateful to have the people that are, that I just get to be around and, and know and be connected to, uh, super grateful.

Um, primarily I give myself permission to, potentially look foolish, I guess. [00:42:00] Have humility, be willing to try things out, be willing to let go of the, the figment of, of imagination around the false reality is the word of perfection. So, I'm okay. I'm okay with like, it's fun.

I'm gonna get out there. I, I try to really hyperfocus on. What my intentions are, what my purpose is, why I feel so connected to what I'm doing. And to be fair, it's incredibly hard. Like I felt soon as I picked a camera up, I felt drawn to documentary photography, humanity, and um, like a photojournalist type of type of vibe.

Like I, I really, I, I'm, I find so many connections with humanity and like people, um, and the energy and the connection points and the stories and the beauty of not even knowing that my, I didn't even really catch [00:43:00] what was happening. My heart and my belly was like, this is like, click the shutter button.

Just do it. You know? So it's just an ongoing practice and I'm still super available for, what it wants to show me. Like today, I know I'm gonna go get a haircut. I know I'm gonna walk around with my camera and. I'm okay with being cold. I'm okay with coming home with nothing, um, quote unquote. Um, I'm, and I'm, and I'm so immersed in the practice too.

So my process is connected to the full range of when I make a photo to when I put the film in the scanner, or if I'm doing digital that day, and I kind of review what's there and I give myself permission to be, you know, real with myself, and not play those like games and know that this is a journey and process the game, meaning, um, just being honest with myself, being honest.

Uh, I don't really like knowing and fine tuning the feeling that connection point. If I [00:44:00] have a connection point to something, I run with it. If I don't have that, I'm honest about it and I say, okay, and I'm moving, and I'm moving with that. So, um, yeah. And, and to hit a couple of points you all made, like it's, it's easy to go down the rabbit hole.

Um, I found myself. Picking up social media after many, many years of not having it. But because I have a root, I have an anchor now, um, I feel really good about the way I use it. I'd never look at my feed. I never look at other stuff. I genuinely just focus on my craft and that, and my family, and my journey, and my process.

So like, no disrespect to the creatives out there right now and all of the beautiful souls out there. I intentionally do not scroll. I do not look at, I look at my own stuff and I find days later, months later, what, what is it trying to communicate to just stay really immersed in this? So,

Mike: ditto.

Sam: I, I was, uh, so I, I've been [00:45:00] obsessed for the last year now with this, um, podcast called The Telepathy Tapes, um,

Jarmal: mm.

Sam: and she just recently released two of the tapes. the last episode I listened to was episode three of season two, and it was specifically about consciousness, but she was focused primarily on, uh, consciousness as a shared coming from source, coming from shared source.

Um,

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: she's, you know, in a science mode, and so she is set out to invite guests and to invite scenarios where it's basically showcasing or proving that. The phenomenon of shared consciousness is not just a phenomenon, that it is real, quite real. uh, there was a handful of, um, really fascinating, um, testimonies shared by guests. Um, [00:46:00] people who outlined the exact same book idea, who didn't know each other, weren't talking to each other, lived on opposite sides of the country or the world, and all of a sudden came up with the exact same book idea or the wrote the same movie script or like wrote the same song

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: what I mean?

Like this kind of thing happens over just kind of proving that like, know, what the universe wants to talk about through us is around us and is working its way to each of us and through us. And so, you know, we, we share our work, we share our ideas, uh, depending on the spirit by which you're sharing, sometimes people. Uh, share in a very ego forward kind of way. Like, look what I, look what I created, look what I, you know, you

Mike: Taking credit for it.

Sam: Yeah, exactly. And it's, but, and so I'm,

Jarmal: Hmm.

Sam: bringing

Jarmal: Hmm.

Sam: context because I feel like what

Jarmal: Hmm.

Sam: just shared is the exact opposite of that.

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: you're basically not [00:47:00] monitoring or metering your feedback online or whatever.

you're literally just sharing flow with people, whoever happens to be watching. Right? And you're just kind of like showcasing flow. And if it, if it resonates with someone, cool, if not, like,

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Sam: and you're just kind of moving forward. But it's about your experience and I love that. I really respect

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Heard. Heard? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mike: basically like, uh, what I hear you saying, it's more like I could take credit for tapping into that, to that frequency at that moment,

Sam: Moment.

Mike: And maybe I was the only one who did, and maybe, uh, multiple people did. Hence the, you know, kind of the synchronicity.

Sam: hey, in, in the spirit of wrapping up

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: like I'm looking at like some of my notes here, and supporting science suggests that deliberate practice, showing that mindful engagement with feedback.

Deep practice is what drives expertise, not sheer repetition. Uh, behavioral neuroscience finds that [00:48:00] reflective learning, deeper encoding yields stronger long-term memory high frequency

Mike: sure. 10,000 hours. Just go look no further than Malcolm, 

Sam: uh, therapeutic outcomes in that context, uh, depend more on the depth of therapeutic alliance per session rather than the total number of sessions.

This is obvious to most

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: the fact is, is that depth truly is greater. That frequency in so many

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: And, uh, I,

Jarmal: Hmm.

Sam: I, I want to begin to wrap up here and give you the opportunity to say something and wrap if you want to, Jarmal. But I, I want to wrap personally by, by just saying thank you. Thank you for coming on today and having this conversation.

I mean, it's, it's brave. Mike and I are really intimidating. I do know.

Mike: That's us.

Sam: but, uh, but hey, no, but seriously though, from my heart, big love to you, big love to [00:49:00] Susu

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: my family out there and everything that you guys are doing and exploring and, and setting such a beautiful example for myself and so many others, uh, as we have the privilege of standing by and knowing you and watching you and, um, you're just such a huge contributor to my world and I know to so many others,

Mike: Hmm.

Sam: so

Mike: Very cool. Yeah.

Sam: today. Yeah.

Mike: Thanks Jarmal. Yeah.

Jarmal: Actually, yeah, likewise. I appreciate you both, um, and I trust that whatever we did here today is gonna do what it needs to do. Thank you for the opportunity and, um, yeah. Big love to both of y'all and nice to meet you, Mike as well.

Sam: Maxim EQ

Jarmal: Mm-hmm.

Mike: yeah,

Sam: depth over frequency, right? It's kind of,

Mike: yeah,

Sam: uh, really our mission

Mike: yeah. I do want to, just talk on something here for a second that I feel like both of you and I know Sam explicitly, I feel like this came up much earlier in the conversation when you were sharing your [00:50:00] experience of having moved to Grand Rapids and kind of taking on a new environment and, and, uh, I don't wanna say starting over necessarily, right?

but basically like immersing yourself in a new community

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: as that related to both relationships and professional opportunity. Right? And what I was thinking about as it relates to that depth that I feel like both of you guys touched on was

giving new opportunity and giving relationships enough space. to create that depth and in turn create a solid foundation for those opportunities and for those relationships. something, really strong and sturdy to go deeper with and build those relationships and explore those opportunities off a foundation of, and it was like this idea of also means giving space to things like that and giving them the opportunity to grow, 

that was like one of my big takeaways from something that I hadn't really thought about as it relates to depth. That was almost also like the space is, is [00:51:00] also giving it depth and breadth. giving it a wide ber, you know, to take root I mix metaphors,

Sam: all the

Mike: same.

Sam: all the fractals of nature teaching us that are foundational

Mike: There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't have 15 branches on a, on a inch trunk or something. Right. So 

Sam: Well,

Jarmal: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Sam: that lives under the ground that we don't necessarily

Mike: there you go. I hate to say roots. Yeah, good point. T

Sam: Yeah. Ah,

Jarmal: Hmm,

Mike: Roots

and

Jarmal: hmm, hmm.

Mike: goes back to some of the, um, ancestral lineage and that kind of thing we're talking about too, right? A little bit, but sorry to keep it

Jarmal: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sam: baby. The onion.

Jarmal: Absolutely. 

Sam: Absolutely. We could do this for three

Mike: yeah,

Sam: We,

Hey, it's Sam and Mike, and we appreciate you coming on this journey with us today. We hope that if you enjoyed it, you'll tell a friend, or better yet, share a link to this podcast and let your community know directly how it [00:52:00] impacted you. That would really help us reach more listeners just like yourself.

Thanks again for listening today. Please feel free to email us at info@maximeqpodcast.com to share a favorite maxim or adage that you might like us to consider for a future episode or perhaps just leave a kind message, maybe some feedback. Till next time, make it a great day.