Season 1 Bonus: A Listener Joins the Conversation

In this special season 1 finale of Maxim EQ, we turn the conversation outward by inviting a listener to join the show.

From the beginning, Maxim EQ was created with the hope that the ideas we explored wouldn’t just be interesting — but would also spark reflection and invite listeners to relate them to their own lives. Well, that’s exactly what happened.

In this episode, our guest Phil Bergren shares how several Season 1 topics resonated deeply with him and ultimately inspired him to step into the conversation. Phil offers thoughtful perspectives on some of our favorite episodes — including Depth Over Frequency, Empathy Is Mutually Beneficial, Welcome the Noise — It Might Carry the Signal, and Perfect Is a Fault, and Fault Lines Change. His reflections didn’t just respond to those ideas — they expanded them, prompting fresh insights and new angles from both Sam and me.

This isn’t a recap. It’s a continuation. It’s proof that meaningful dialogue doesn’t end when the microphones turn off. It carries forward — in how we interpret ideas, challenge assumptions, and apply what resonates to our own experiences.

As we close out the season, this episode captures what Maxim EQ is all about: thoughtful exchange, personal reflection, and the belief that growth happens when ideas move from conversation into real life.

Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next season.

Mike

Transcript

Season 1 Bonus - A Listener Joins the Conversation
===

Welcome to Maxim EQ, where we explore the common sensical through individual interpretation 

at a time when the profound is too often reduced to cheap memes and goofy bumper stickers, we head in the opposite direction, digging deeper to examine the commonalities and differences in our perceptions around a particular adage.

In each episode, we'll discuss our guest take on a thought provoking maxim, designed to promote self-reflection and personal growth for us, but hopefully for you as well. 

 Today's episode marks a meaningful milestone for Mike and me. As we wrap up season one of Maxim EQ to reflect on that season, we've invited a listener who's thoughtfully engaged with the show and shared feedback along the way.

Phil Bergren, we spend this conversation revisiting some of his favorite moments from season one and seeing where that reflection leads what began as a simple creative ritual we valued personally. Has resonated more widely than we expected, and we're [00:01:00] genuinely grateful for that. So let's look back with Phil and then turn our attention towards season two.

Thanks for being here. 

Now Maxim EQ with Sam Wahl and me, Mike Baumer

​

Mike: Is it time for???

Sam: It's time for Maxim EQ

yeah. another episode of Firsts for us. I mean, first time we finished a season, huh? How about that first time we finished an entire season, uh, finishing a season of Maxim EQ 

um, for the sake of bringing some clarity to what we're doing here today, uh, for the listeners, we decided, after having gotten some really amazing feedback from a couple of our [00:02:00] listeners, we decided to choose one listener in particular who, has circled back to us.

with enthusiastic feedback on more than one, episode. In fact, making sure that that we knew that he had listened to every one of our episodes and we thought, this would be great. Maybe we can do a recap on the season by inviting one of our listeners to come in and have, you know, kind of a, revisit.

and maybe just talk about, a broader lens on a takeaway from like, what it's been like being a Maxim EQ listener, and a participant over the last 10 episodes. So that's what we're doing today. We got, Phil Bergen, from Michigan USA, joining us today.

And he's a super cool guy. Uh, gotten to know him a little bit. And, um, I'm psyched for this. You got anything else you wanna say to set this up?

Mike: I mean, I couldn't be any happier going into this because, from what you've shared with me in terms of Phil's feedback it's right in line with

Sam: Exactly what

Mike: I, and I think we hoped Maxim Q would do. Right.

Sam: indeed.[00:03:00] 

Mike: probably in our intro episode, I would've mentioned that I listened to a lot of podcasts and I find myself wanting to hit the pause button and either unpack what they're talking about because, uh, I'm not ready to move

Sam: On and

Mike: there was something dense enough in there for me to wanna

Sam: spend a little bit more.

Mike: time with, or hit the pause button or somehow, transport myself into the conversation and participate. And it sounds to me from what you've shared, that that's. close to the effect that it's had on Phil.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: And so now we've got this opportunity to invite him in and share some of that feedback and maybe a couple highlights of what, uh, of specific things that resonated with him over the course of the season and what they mean to him. So yeah. Dude, I'm totally

stoked. 

Sam: know, it's been neat for me, Mike. Um, you know, you and I are the kind of guys because we're both musicians, because we're both, uh, film buffs from, you know, our [00:04:00] perspective, uh, era of film exposure. we're both around the same age of oldness. Um, at any rate, uh, you know, we, our friendship has, uh, definitely evolved into a place where we can almost finish each other's sentences with film and music references, right.

And conversations, you know, when we're, you know, and I love that. Um, and it, you know, so I've told you, I've gotten to know Phil and we've kind of become friends and we do communicate and, it's super cool for me. Um, although because I'm the host of Maxim EQ it may have tainted the double blind, uh, litmus or whatever, you know what I mean?

um, but. he makes reference to these episodes sometimes when we're having conversation. I love, I, I love being able to see that happen in real time though, when we're talking about something and then, you know, contextually it's like, oh, it's kind of like that, that part of that conversation in episode three, you know what I mean?

Whatever. And so, yeah. So it's neat to see, to see that, you know, there is some [00:05:00] efficacy to, the frame of mind that, uh, conversations like this put people in and, uh, it has a,

Mike: yeah.

Sam: has a lasting effect. And I love that.

Mike: yeah, not only, Did this have the intended effect on at least one? And I know of a few also people, but, we've become a point of reference.

Sam: See,

Mike: is being referenced.

Sam: us. Go look at us. Go,

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: well, let's invite Phil on.

Mike: Done and done!! 

Sam: see how long it takes for him to hop on here with us.

Mike: Yeah.

PHIL....

Sam: there he is. How are you Phil?

Phil: Hey,



Phil: and welcome to MAXIM EQ

Thank you.

Sam: It is so nice

Phil: It's lovely to be here.

Sam: So, hey, so we were, Mike and I were just kind of chatting about, you and I have met and become friends here in the, uh, greater Grand Rapids, Michigan area, which is cool. But, um, you know, kind of simultaneously as you were a Maxim, EQ listener, uh, and someone, giving us feedback on the, season one episodes, and we just thought it would be a really cool idea, as a [00:06:00] wrap up for the season to, to have, uh, one of our favorite people, uh, come back and help us kind of revisit the season and, and talk a little bit about, being a listener of Maxim EQ how has this experience been for you? I mean, how do you wanna approach this episode today? What do you think? how do you want to, how do you wanna do this?

Phil: Yeah, so I was thinking about it, um, I thought it might be nice to start with just kind of like maxims in general, like definitions. What does it mean? so maxims are like these adages or these like truths. It's about like collective culture, right?

And what you guys are doing is really about like defining that collective culture. We have all these. These, um, proverbial phrases and you're talking about like, what does it mean to you and what does it mean to me and where do we see it? So it gets into like that interconnectedness. And then there's like a, there's a thread that ties into like law and metaphysics and stuff, um, that I, I thought we could get into.

And then the, [00:07:00] I, I really thought about like three episodes that, um, that we could really kind of focus on for like the, the main points. So, um, empathy is mutually beneficial. Welcome the noise. It might carry the signal. And don't let what you can't do interfere with what you can do.

Sam: Great. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, let's hop.

Mike: into it because when Sam and I were wrapping for a minute or two before you joined us, Phil, I shared that, from what I understand about your experience, is it really kind of hits the mark of what we'd hoped to do, which was have a similar effect on a listener that sometimes Sam and I have when we're listening to other podcasts in terms of something that really resonates with you and wanting to hit the pause button, either to unpack

Sam: It for,

Mike: potentially contribute to a conversation that you don't have an opportunity to be a part of.

So,

I don't know if you wanna do it sequentially

Sam: or

Mike: in order of which ones you like the most,

Phil: I think just like on that first point that you had,

one of the things that I really like about listening to you [00:08:00] guys is it's something like, I'm not, um, I'm not like an avid podcast listener. I, the content that I consume is almost entirely music. Right. and this is kind of like a new thing for me and it's a conversation that I don't hear anywhere else.

Um, like I spend a lot of time working for money with people that are using, like marketing lingos synergies and whatever. Right. And, I was talking to my wife last night about this, this kind of takes me back to like being in an educational setting where it's, it's about ideas.

it's not about like, how fast can we get something done, or like, what is the deliverable at the end of this? It's a, it's about the journey, and that is just really cool. It, it's really nice for me to have that, you know,

just a, a completely different way of thinking about it.

Like where the end is not what's important. It's about like the connections. 

Sam: of the reasons why we decided to do a guest as opposed [00:09:00] to just Mike and I gabbing at each other and recording those conversations, you know, was obviously when you bring another person into a space, the alchemy changes. it becomes, a totally different paradigm.

the more kind of, inputs or, you know, the more, uh, participants, um, are present. And, I think that as a listener, I know that when I'm listening to podcasts, especially like, you know, um, we're big fans of Tetragrammaton, for example. And I think that, that the interview style, even though it is an interview, um, is more conversational uh, that seems to be his default style. and it was always my experience listening to those podcasts that, I was kind of in the middle of it, or part of it, you know what I mean? Like, I was able to follow along own internal narrative with their conversation. And, um, and I thought, wouldn't it be cool if we could literally kind of like, make that happen, kind of create flow with a new person each time who's not here [00:10:00] to sell a book or not here to sell a record or promote a film or whatever, who's literally just here to enter into a flow space with us on a interesting topic, you know?

So, yeah.

Phil: And that's, that's cool too, right? Because like you're bringing in a lot of people that, that have a lot of similarities but approach things differently. And like for me personally. I both think I'm a weirdo and everyone thinks exactly like me all the time. Right. And, and it's, it's to see kind of like the polls.

Um, and it's not even polls, it's just like you get three different perspectives that are all coming kind of from the same place, but approaching it differently and, and

Mike: interesting you,

Phil: yeah, I just, I love it.

Mike: go back to the origin, but you really are speaking to it and, and that freaks me out because idea behind choosing these phrases, or maxims or adages or whatever you want to say, was that they were, General enough that they could have meaning to almost anybody, but also just abstract enough to create the space for [00:11:00] what you were just talking about.

Right? So common enough that we could all get together and talk about it, but I wouldn't go as far as to say

Sam: Cryptic and

Mike: why I go with just abstract enough to allow it to mean something a little bit different to everybody and bring that point of view to the conversation. And then obviously, because it's a real time interactive conversation, it can just go off in any direction from there. So that also feels like a good setup to invite you to hop into, an episode and just

Sam: that's why.

Mike: experience about it with us, if you

Sam: Yeah. If I can steer you here, if you don't mind me steering you a little bit more, um, I would like to ask

Phil: Steer away?

Sam: the first 10 episodes, what was Phil Bergen's favorite and why?

Phil: Um,

Sam: just think that'd be a really fun place to start.



Phil: so I, I'd probably say welcome the noise. It, might carry the signal And for me, it's like, like all [00:12:00] of your guests are wonderful, but it's, it's very much like a, a jumping off point for me to think about, like, what does, like what's my perspective on this and, and how does this reach me?

And what can I learn from, from what's, you know, like what's being conveyed. And like, the noise for me is. It really spoke to me like I, I work in a, a world with a lot of chaos, right? And like, chaos and noise can often be synonyms and, if you avoid that, you don't see the patterns that exist within it, what I really think is, is cool, is like everything is noisy, everything is complicated.

And being able to focus and filter out like what you aren't ready for or what you're not interested at, that one moment to find like singular meaning or purpose or, or some continuity, Is really interesting. And then there's like the music analogy too with that where like I, um, I [00:13:00] really like dissonance in, in finding beauty in that and improvisation and, um, just like all of these atoms and molecules bouncing off each other to coalesce and form something that's gonna be slightly different every time.

And, but always the same. it's what the cool thing about these maxims and these adages, like pick any one of 'em, right? Like you start talking about it and it becomes this like universal idea that connects to everything else. So, I don't know.

Sam: every one of them, right? Because it's human. Because it's human, and it's, yeah. I love that too. Um, I wanna back up to, you know, kind of where you were at with, with, with filters and, and talking about how we, how we filter noise. And we talked about that a little bit in that episode with Lysa Mosca.

That was an amazing moment. Um, and I, it was one of the things, one of my biggest takeaways from that conversation and that episode that I've gone back and kind of given some more depth of thought too, and been really, it's kind of become part of my, my consciousness, is, uh, bringing intentionality, uh, having a broader [00:14:00] awareness of, of how you are filtering the noise that life in the world, um, brings at you.

and being, intentional about what you're filtering. With what your filter is, you know, whether your filter is, is an ego-based kind of, uh, presence or whether your filter is, something that's intentionally, and fundamentally, spiritually seeking or, do you understand what I'm trying to articulate here? 

Phil: I don't know. Do you have like an example?

Sam: we all have kind of a resting filtration system, right. You know, the way that we kind of interact, consciously with life, society, uh, whatever. And

Phil: Yeah. We set a gate and we decide what crosses it, right?

Sam: and I, and I

Phil: yeah.

Sam: Um. people who are more involved in, mindfulness practices, have, have learned ways to be more intentional [00:15:00] about. How they're receiving the inputs of, of life, and literally, literally, you know, engaging in physical practices each day, like whether it's meditation or a yoga practice or Tai chi or something that kind of, you know, uh, gives your ego a break and kind of brings you into a more heightened state of consciousness in your physicality 

and just brings more organization to how you're receiving, input and how you're acknowledging input and whether or not you're personalizing those acknowledgements or you're just kind of letting them flow past and be inconsequential. All of those kinds of things, you know.

But I feel like, in a, in a broader sense, like just our spirit and the way that we. Kind of intend to, or set in our mind that we're going to engage with the world is also partly a filter, right? So like, um, it's easy for us sometimes to, to by default be victimized constantly. That's kind of an ego based thing, and you know, and I think it's important to wake up each day, for example, and think to myself, you know, what, [00:16:00] everything that's happening in the world is not about me. And I don't need to metabolize, internalize, and physically carry around, all of the ails, all of the, Horrific things that humanity is engaged with right now, all at one time. So I can, without sticking my head in the sand and not looking at television, listening to radio, or looking at the internet at all, I can engage in those things without carrying the burden and stress of all things at once. That was a little tangential, but I'm trying to give

Phil: And

Sam: to what I'm saying.

Phil: so

Mike: Well, I,

Phil: Go ahead, Mike.

Mike: something that you started with Phil which was pointed out that there's noise in everything. It's like, it's unavoidable that the chaos is noise and all this kinda stuff. And I took away when you were talking about that was, Hey look,

Sam: it's

Mike: gonna happen anyway.

So, [00:17:00] and this goes back to the welcome part of it. So if you're not welcoming it or you're not willing to participate in it, probably won't develop the skills

Sam: You pull value out it. Mm-hmm.

Mike: the signal out of it. And so for fear of like going to a. of productivity, right? It's like, that felt like a really constructive, healthy way to, not only acknowledge that it exists, but to actually do something constructive with it. and that goes back to one of these other themes that I feel like keeps coming up in some of these episodes is the idea of agency, right? It's almost like by welcoming it, 

you're involving yourself in the process, which probably helps you develop the skill to do it well.

And then because you've developed that skill, you have more control over, uh, what you're taking away from it and the value that it might have to you. 

Sam: Yeah.

Phil: I think that like the, to tie maybe both of those kind of concepts of agency and Sam, what I was picking up from you is a lot about [00:18:00] mindfulness, which, which I think is critical. And that's really, I think,

it enables you to experience things without judgment. Judgment is, I think where you really get hung up, right? When you have to have an opinion and like a moral like, perspective on everything that's happening to you, that's exhausting.

But to just just have it come through you enables you to, to not focus on any one thing, but just kind of like see the, see the horizon, right? And that, that I think also enables you to, to pattern spot because you're not focused on any one thing or any particular thing that's coming in. You get to absorb and see that like kind of recurrence, which, like back to the music side, like I, I love improvisational music and I love playing it.

I love listening to it. I love when, when other people are like, what is going on? Like, where are they going? And then it comes back on a one and you're like, oh yeah. You know, it's like they were all in their own collective [00:19:00] worlds, right? Like going off, but they have a enough. Um, ability to, to just experience things and to hear these little hints that are going on from the people around them to wherever they go, wherever they get lost, they can come back together because they have these markers.

And I, I think that's really cool. And that's one of the things that I, I think really separates people that are able to, like, do big things versus that are, more like smaller focused or, or like singularly focused is the more you're able to absorb, the more like vastness of like inputs you're able to, to see and to have seen, the easier it's gonna be for you to find those patterns and to apply them in other situations.

Whereas if you're very focused on, like e everything that comes in has to be dealt with and judged and, and whatever I think you get, you get lost in that.

Sam: to extrapolate on what you were just saying, Phil? Uh, a yesterday I revisited [00:20:00] while I was mopping my house just because it was the first one that popped up.

If I'm honest with you, I wasn't seeking it out. It just depth over frequency. The, the episode, sometimes I'll edit these things and I'll, so I'll spend a lot of time in the conversation while editing, but then I'll forget to actually just listen to it. for the sake of listening to it as a conversation. And I was far enough away from it that I was like, you know what, I'm gonna listen to depth over frequency today uh, Jamal Arnold's episode, uh, while I'm mopping my floor. And I did.

Phil: Hmm.

Sam: I was really, I loved the way that he entered in, to the conversation with us.

And one of the first things he said was like, you know. asked him, what was the impression of this maxim that first hit you, whatever. And he is like, well, he's like, it just kind of caught my attention on the page. And, you know, I immediately had a download that, that was like, there's, there's something in this, that needs to come through. And so he's like, I got up this morning, set my intentions. You know, like he has a kind of a little meditative process where he goes to his ancestors, he goes to his [00:21:00] elders. That's his, that's his filter system, you know, he's given it away. You know what I mean? So it's not about his, it's about what he's available to receive.

So he puts himself on this path to receive, and he is like, I immediately started kind of having my own, I don't remember exactly how he articulated it, but he is like, I immediately started kind of unpacking it in my own head. And he is like, you know, uh, before getting on this conversation with us.

And he is like, but he's like, but then as soon as I caught myself doing that, he's like, no, no, no. I know better than that. I, I know better than that. I just need to leave myself open. So that. So that the ancestors can actually flow through me, 

Phil: Yeah, I thought, I thought that was really cool. What he was saying too about frequency and you, you all, three of you picked up on it, right? Like frequency can mean different things. It's like the, distance between occurrences, but in the, like, in the music or the vibe world, right? Like the sound world frequency is also the distance between the sound waves, right?

So it's like no matter what, where it's, we're like the same concept. Just it's, it's kind of universal, right? It, it permeates everything.

Sam: I love that, the initial entry point [00:22:00] here for us was, the Welcome the Noise episode because of all episodes. I remember while we were having that conversation with Lysa, in my mind I kept making reference to so many of these other maxims and having that thought of like, wow, this is just, these are all so universally like, 

Phil: Yeah, they all flow together. 

Yeah,

Mike: And one,

Phil: they all flow together. 

Mike: about that episode I don't set out I have no interest in being a contrarian, right? 

Sam: we

do,

Mike: a lot about filter out the noise, man, filter out the noise, you know? And I

Sam: everything,

Mike: the three of us just talked about, and in that episode with Lysa was like, well, you know, there's a value to that and to the process and to including it as part of the process.

Because to your point earlier, Phil, there ain't no getting away from it.

But it, I think it is also exhausting. And that's, that's,

Yeah. worth talking about, right? Like But it, I think it is also exhausting. And that's, that's,

Yeah.

Phil: worth talking about, right? Like I think it does [00:23:00] take training and a lot of experience to be able to sit in the noise and to sit in new noise. And to be able to process it and not panic.

Sam: setting intentions,

each day that your heart is on the path and open to receiving enlightenment. Um, that's exactly it. it's it's setting up that dragnet, you know what I mean? we could do

Mike: whole episode on, okay. To your point, we we're kind of in agreement that there's value in it, but we also appreciate that it can be exhausting until you get

Sam: that moment.

Mike: of developing the skills to do it. And so one episode feel like, great, do I

Sam: Yeah. This is, this is the, this is the universal struggle of being in a human body, though. This is the universal struggle of being in a human body. This is life. You know what I mean? That's, that is the, that is literally the suffering of life. It's like we're in this body and we have these five senses,

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: what I mean?

The perceived five senses. There might be 30 more that we're not actually giving language to, but

Mike: I'm gonna misquote it, but there was something in Cara's[00:24:00] 

Sam: episode of.

Mike: a mountain or a series of molehill where she said like, the future is struggle or looking at the future and not necessarily being able to, um, to, to see a path

Sam: Mm-hmm.

Mike: is basically struggle.

so

Phil: the interconnectedness and the, the complicated nature of everything. Like, I, I think we have to recognize that, like, being able to sit in the noise, being able to handle it and not panic. Like that's, that's not something like, I don't think that's safe or beneficial for someone to just like, jump into, right?

Like, you gotta build those skills. And maybe that's not what's for you right now. Like, 'cause it's most important to be, be safe to have, uh, shelter, to have clothes, to have food. And focus on that first. Like, and no judgment if you're not able to sit in the noise, if you're not someone that, if enjoys like, listening to the dissonance and trying to find patterns like that doesn't mean like there's something wrong, right?

Like,

Sam: right.

Phil: not where you are right now.

Sam: uh, being so [00:25:00] confident. That you are willing to enter into that space playfully like a jazz musician, right? I mean, and that's an

extreme, right? Like people, I think about that. I think about people who

Phil: Yeah.

Sam: that they're gonna go and do ayahuasca. I'm like, whoa, Like that is, plugging it into a preamp and turning the gain up to 150, you know what I mean, on the noise, I don't know if I can handle that, Um, being in a studio room with four other personalities and trying to flow in an ad-lib musical environment would be really intimidating to me.

You know what I mean? Like, I'm not sure if I could handle that, you know? 

Mike: So we kind of touched a bit on depth over frequency. we spent more time on, uh, welcome the noise. It might contain the 

Sam: Mm-hmm. I made,

Mike: reference to Mountain and Mole hills. What else? Oh, you mentioned at the top that some of the ones that stood out to

Phil: Um, empathy.

Mike: one of the ones that made your top list.

Sam: yeah. So my question would be this, if you were a [00:26:00] listener, uh, a consumer. an experiencer of, Maxim EQ. Um, if you were meeting someone tomorrow and you were talking about, Hey, what do you, are you listening to podcasts? And you were like, yeah, I'm actually engaged with this podcast, Maxim EQ And they were like, oh yeah, tell me about it. And you were telling them about it, you know, if you were telling them one episode that they should start with, what's your go to?

Phil: empathy is mutually beneficial.

Sam: All right. with John Dykstra from,

Phil: Um,

Sam: Alaska. Yeah.

Mike: why? Yeah.

Sam: Yeah. Yeah.



Phil: I have a, a personal philosophy based on, like selfish altruism is what I call it.

Like, so the meaning of life is happiness and I want to be happy. And what's gonna make me happy is, to make sure that as many people around me are also happy. Right? And I'm, everything that I'm doing, like I'm trying to find where are those intersections, where the people I'm around are.

Um, equally enjoying or, or looking for the same thing. Like where are we, where are those connection points where [00:27:00] we're, we're completely aligned and there is no conflict? And then how do we get there? And empathy is the way you get there by putting yourself or trying to, to put yourself in the shoes of the, the person or the people that are around you and what are they going through.

And when you do that, you see how their path aligns with yours or you get an idea of how their path aligns with yours. And

Sam: But

Phil: I, it's, it's just, um, mutually beneficial.

Sam: To earn that idea. you have to work your way towards empathy, right? You have to learn how to be empathic, right? It's.

Mike: I think you also just exposed why you

Phil: the ideal

Mike: Maxim eq listener because.

Sam: cold in here,

Mike: your personal philosophy of selfish altruism is a combination of words that would totally, A, not only resonates with me, B

Sam: like

Mike: the kind of thing that I would pause to make a mental note of,

Sam: a hundred percent.

Mike: how some of these came about, including empathy is mutually beneficial, by the way. [00:28:00] And, um, I'm like, yeah, dude, that is an episode.

Sam: Yeah. 

Mike: because feels, um, like it's at odds with itself. It, you know, selfish and altruistic and it's not, 

maybe you've said all there is to say about it and maybe, maybe the point of this is to not overexplain it and let other listeners to this episode unpack it for themselves.

But, we can edit it out. So I'm down if you wanna expand on that at all,

Phil: so I, I hesitate to actually tell people about that Sometimes,

so like there, there's this competing, um, kind of philosophy that came out of like Silicon Valley tech bros. Crypto, whatever, called hedonistic altruism, I think, and I don't want to be associated with that, that's not my thing. Um, but like selfish altruism is these contradictions, right?

It's like totally focused on yourself, totally focused on others. It's, everything is meaningless. Everything is important, right? It's like that's, that's how everything is, right? Like it's, these things exist at [00:29:00] the same time and you have to acknowledge it.

Sam: My favorite singer, songwriter of all time. Gord Downey, the former singer of Tragically Hip. We live to survive our paradoxes. One of my favorite lyrical quotes from him, but it's, go ahead. Keep going. 

Phil: Yeah. So like, and, and exactly right. so if I'm trying to think about happiness and I, I landed on happiness being like the, the thing to shoot for, based on, I read a book by the Dalai Lama when I was in college or something, and he's someone who gets asked a lot, like, what's the meaning of life?

And his response is happiness. So that feels as good as any, right? Like, I want to be happy. Um, and when I'm thinking about like, what makes me the most happy, it's, I genuinely love helping people. I love helping people. Realize something that they hadn't before, or helping them do something that they couldn't do.

Even if it, like putting up a Christmas tree for someone, right. That brings me joy and, um, it helps them feel joy too, right? So it's like [00:30:00] this, in the corporate world, um, we would, we would call that a flywheel where it like perpetuates itself.

Sam: let's unpack that. Let's unpack that. Like I'm a substance abuser, I'm an addict, right? I love serotonin. I love chemical treats. I love tasty treats. You know what I mean?

Phil: Mm-hmm.

Sam: real talk here. that kind of altruism literally has been proven, literally increases your, your squirts, your serotonin squirts, right? You know, 

Phil: Yeah,

Sam: it really is a scientifically proven shot of liquid happiness, right? In your neuro paths, right? All right. This is

Phil: a hundred percent.

Mike: Of how I, how I came to empathy is mutually beneficial. mean, it literally just hit me one day while I was taking a walk and listening to podcasts. I don't, I'm not taking credit for it necessarily. I don't know as a combination of words, but that's how I got to selfish altruism.

Was that like, it did two things for me. One, I realized I was [00:31:00] happiest when, I was making space for other people and supporting them however I could. And then the other part about it was I realized that maybe this isn't in those words, but it was part of the process for me, which is. I recognize that at the same time that I recognized that letting go of some prejudging, letting go of some real time judgment. the more I cleared out some of the negativity those things, space it created to let the other stuff come in. so that led to me being able to be more regularly empathetic.

And then that led to, now we're getting to the flywheel thing a little bit, right? So, yeah.

Sam: So, you know, an observation of that. Uh, and, and the fact that I resonate with that strongly. Um, you know, I love the transparency and vulnerability in talking about that out loud because I know that that is kind of paradoxical and it is something that, you know, [00:32:00] other people bring judgment to who don't quite understand how or why you're approaching that with such honesty.

Right. Um, you know, more recently, I think one of the most painful things for me to learn to remove myself from and, um, I'm bringing this up 'cause it's poignant, um, and it's current, but like watching, you know, people perpetrate violence and harm on others in order to gain power, order to bolster their position, in their political role or in their. You know, their tiny little, officer role, their deputized role, whatever the, whatever gets them off. You know what I mean? But watching people do that, These people are digging a hole. they are disabling themselves from having joy, from having that serotonin hit that we're talking about.

they are creating static death for themselves. And I'm looking at that. I'm thinking whether you call that karma, whatever you want to call that, it's on the opposite, [00:33:00] side of what we're discussing here

, 

Phil: So like, I think that's like the inverse flywheel, right? when I see that, I mean, not to get like political or anything, but when I see like the government shooting citizens in the head, like killing people on the street and like the situation that we're in. I wanna fucking strangle these people, right?

Like I don't want them to ever be able to do this. And I feel so bad that they feel like this is the thing that they need to be doing, that they feel like this is the thing that enables them to be happy or that's going to lead to joy for them,

Sam: even

Phil: right? Like that's what we need to fix,

Sam: for me personally, and I own this, it goes to the extent of like, that I am, probably more safely labeled as a socialist, because that's the only thing that really resonates.

And, you know, with, with the, what we're discussing, you know what I mean? And, and to me it's fundamental, you know, to being a more fulfilled and happier human being. you know, to be competitive, to be in opposition of, in a state or in a, in a mode of opposition [00:34:00] or in a mode of competition all the time, to me, does not resonate with, My addiction to, the serotonin. 

Phil: But, but like, if you could, um, if you could just do drugs all day with no negative consequences, like I would sign up for that. Right? But, but you don't do that because the, you see the negative consequences, right? Like it's, it's not actually bringing you joy, it's, you're able to see far enough ahead that, like, that short term,

Sam: Yeah,

Phil: Like it's, it's not worth it.

Sam: man. This is the

whole.

Mike: conversation that we could spend, you know, maybe not in this episode, just wrapping as people over because. first of all, there's lots of different kinds of people. some people are very shortsighted. You know, it's a, it's a day trader mentality, right?

Like, whatever gives me satisfaction in that moment, future be damned The effect on other people be damned. I don't know that I want to spend my time and energy understanding people [00:35:00] who have that approach and

Sam: That approach, 



Phil: So I, I actually, so I think like we can tie it back to exactly this, to the flywheel and to the, the contradictions of life, right? Like, 'cause like you're talking about like day trader mentality. That's, that's good. Like that's a good mentality to think one day at a time, what am I doing today? Be in the moment.

Right? But it's also good and it's super critical to think long term, right? You can't have one without the other. And when you focus on one without the other, when you don't see the polls or the extremes or have a view of it, you get focused on imbalanced truth. Right? And then the other thing, like we were talking about, earlier, I think the viral nature of knowledge, like when, the more knowledge that you have, the more things that the knowledge that you acquire, the more in depth you get.

You see that everywhere, right? Like the more expertise you get, you see the analogies. And with true knowledge, like with accurate information as well as false information. And everything is true. Everything is false. So [00:36:00] like, you can see this anywhere.

I just was reading about the Epstein files today, unfortunately. Right? Like I know that everything in there is awful and I know that. Some of it's true, some of it's false, some of it is made up maliciously. Some of it is made up, honestly, or like an, an innocent misremembering. Right. And depending on where you are, there's something there for you to say, see, I was right.

I was right. And it doesn't matter being right. You know, it's like you're not focused on the best thing to like actually get you forward. You're like,

Sam: Yeah.

Phil: It's like very myopic.

Mike: opportunity for confirmation bias is everywhere basically.

Sam: I, I think it's, I think it's back to hedonism honestly. So like what are all these sources of pleasure, drugs, power is a source of pleasure. Being altruistic is a source of pleasure, right? Like being comfortable and sheltered is a source of pleasure. Power is a very big source of pleasure, right? Like [00:37:00] if, if you, if you are able to do something that you perceive nobody else is able to do or that other people aren't able to do, right?

Phil: Like, that separates you so I think that is a big thing. It's like that pursuit of power and like how, how many things can I move at one time?

Sam: you see that kind of selfish altruism, uh, show up even in, philanthropy, ultimately when you see somebody sharing vast amounts of wealth with people in need, you know, it's not necessarily always. The most responsible distribution of wealth. it's serving someone's, selfish altruism. Definitely. You know what I mean? Uh, and in some cases it's even on a more sophisticated level, the controlling or hoarding of wealth resources too. 

Phil: And that doesn't mean it's like empirically bad, right? Like, like hoarding is bad. Right? But like giving money away or giving resources away is, is good, right? Like you can't, like that's, I think the problem is everything is,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: Everything's

Phil: complicated. Is.

Sam: [00:38:00] Um,

Mike: Um, us back in just a little

Sam: but why?

Mike: I, I, because, because I, I also like some.

That's fair. Don't get me wrong. It's totally fair. Um, but I think I have a good answer to that, which is that each time that we've done it, I feel like, you know, Phil has spit out a or nugget or two that then leads to these other extensions, which is fine, but I also feel like every time we

Sam: do it

Mike: it starts a new, one of these threads that you just

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: start over again?

Right.

Sam: Are you

Mike: is, if we hadn't, we wouldn't be getting to the end of each one of those. I guess I'm just ready for another road,

Sam: then one more road

Mike: before we

break. But then. Poke the Fill Bear do it. Trying to

do. That's exactly what I'm trying to do. Uh, so is there, I mean, because, you

Sam: it's a

Mike: a fair amount of time on empathy as mutually beneficial and then where it took us for[00:39:00] 

Sam: minutes.

Mike: So I feel like

Sam: I love it.

Mike: for, it's time for a new thread. Um. And with that I'll yield to Phil. 

I don't think we would've gotten to selfish altruism if you hadn't referenced the empathy is mutually beneficial

Sam: don't, yeah. To Sam's point,

Mike: I'm curious to know

Sam: what the next

Mike: selfish altruism is gonna be. If you have another one that's gonna

Sam: song 

Mike: starting.

by talking about one of the other episodes.

Phil: So maybe we should talk about the perfection one and the fault lines changing because that was really interesting to me, like the impermanence of it, like that really spoke to me. Um, and also the idea of like we've been talking about like truths or universality or like what is real or not, right?

And perfection, like you guys were talking about, there is not really perfection. Like there is no like empirical perfect. you have people that are making pasta in Italy that have, their families have been doing it for hundreds of years. Right. Is that perfect? Is it the same as it has been a hundred years ago?

It keeps evolving, [00:40:00] right? Based on the environment you're in, which also ties into something you guys are talking about. Um, you're never in the same stream twice, right?

Mike: Yeah,

Phil: Like all of these things just, just all weave together, you know?

Mike: And

Phil: Yep.

Mike: you're practicing law, you're practicing medicine, you haven't perfected,

Sam: A hundred Right?

Mike: really, it's like these generations of pasta makers are practicing. Or whatever

Sam: Well, 

Phil: Yeah. 

Sam: in now going back to the reference as musicians and, uh, Phil is also a musician, so you can, you can relate to this, but I used to have this conversation all the time with people about you practice to play a show, but. You're still only playing a show play, meaning that you are involved in, a flow of shared space with other people.

And it is playful, albeit fun. But, you know, it's also, impermanent and it's, it is something that is temporary and that you, you enter into your own risk and you play it out and you're playing [00:41:00] with the other people, the audience. There's an exchange of energy with an audience now, and that's part of the play, right? I love that word, and I love the observation of impermanence and how kind of sacred that is for us. We do that same thing in collective prayer when we go to church together. We involve all these souls, all these bodies in one space so that we can have an interaction of energy and, shared meditation and mantra and all that kind of stuff.

it's powerful and it's palpable 

Phil: going back to, uh, you making reference initially in this segment to Perfect as a Fault and Fault Lines change, that's an excerpt from a lyric from a, a popular REM song from Life's Rich Pageants, a song titled, I Believe. and I love that Mike picked that 

Sam: it's one of my favorites all time REM songs. Um. But in the, the context of that lyric, I feel like, just want to encourage anyone who's listening to us right now to go listen to that song. it's on Life's Rich [00:42:00] Pageants. it's called, I Believe.

Mike: knowing that we're getting close to wrapping this up and as a listener, you would know, Phil, that Sam is typically the one who takes the lead on starting to summarize, but I'm not gonna wrap us up in a summary of this conversation, but I do want to take us back to something that you mentioned at the very beginning, which is that you're not, a huge consumer of podcasts, but you are a huge consumer of music.

I'm assuming some instrumental and some with lyrics 

when you are reacting to music, do you find yourself reacting equally to lyrics and to the music or, right. There we go. So just the music.

And so what I wanted to ask is like, you've got these two input sources now. One that you're thoroughly immersed in, in the form of music and one that you dabble in, in the form of listening to conversations in a podcast There's no real question there. just [00:43:00] speak to it, whether

Phil: Hmm.

Mike: Tell me how music resonates with you that might have something in common with how the feedback that you've had about these episodes has had an effect on you. Is there commonality there or there differences there? Just to use this as a subject for tickling you, so to speak? it's similar

Sam: But it's

Mike: coming in different delivery

Sam: coming.



Phil: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And I am, uh, it's funny, Sam and I were joking about this. Sam, I think is very much a lyrics person when listening to music. And I, um, until fairly recently, I didn't listen to lyrics at all. I couldn't tell you like, I couldn't sing along with my favorite songs. Like I'm a,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Phil: a huge Nirvana fan and like, I mean, maybe that's a bad example given, you know, his, uh, dictation.

But like, I couldn't tell you like basically any lyrics. What I hear is like the melody and I hear the tone and. And it even impacts like non-music, interactions. I am [00:44:00] best at, um, absorbing information and connecting when I'm in person, looking at someone, able to hear them, able to see them, right, like in the same room.

And then the more removed I get from that, the less interest I have and ability I have to actually deal with that and feel, and actually trust that I understand the message, like the communication. I know it's extremely frustrating for most people that I work with and interact with.

Um, if, if you talk to me one-on-one, I'm, I'm in it. If you send me an email, my likelihood of responding is like 30% maybe texts, it's not super high either. And it's like, it's not intentional. And I'm not trying to like, make excuses for, because I, it's something that I am trying to work on being more responsive and more accountable, but it's like.

It takes so much more effort for me to respond to a text message than to like an in person on the street, like conversation. So I don't know. And I think that is about like the, the sound [00:45:00] versus the words, like when, when I'm reading, I think I have to hear it. Like I almost like read it out loud to myself.

Like there has to be a cadence to it. And also, like a theme, I'm always looking for like, how does one thing

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Phil: to the next, which is kind of like an album mentality.

Mike: Earlier

Phil: Like one thing leads to the next

Mike: You look for patterns and so,

Phil: Yes.

Mike: Yeah, I love it. I love it.

Phil: What about you?

Mike: interesting question. IHere's the thing. Growing up, I'm kind of a late bloomer, 

I wasn't tuned into the meaning of lyrics until much later on multiple levels, even in the super explicit storytelling kind of side of things. the semi-abstract and then even the abstract. And so I wrote something down when you're talking about being a Nirvana fan and not necessarily being tuned into the lyrics.

And yes, dictation is an issue with Kurt and that kind of thing, but the, the older I got and the more mature that I got, and the more sophisticated that cater that I got in my, my [00:46:00] sophisticated in the context of the fact that not only my, am I barely a musician because

Sam: Drummer.

Mike: I'm barely a musician because I'm a rock pop guy, right? And like, I can't, I,

Phil: Hmm.

Mike: try, you know, to get into bop I try to get into, more sophisticated versions of the art form. Rock pop is my sweet spot, you know, so, and the semi-abstract is my sweet spot, right? So the Beatles are my Bible, and if I had to choose between Paul and John, I would choose John every time.

Right? Just in terms of the imagery, the semi abstractness to it. So when you said Kurt and like, listen, your Nirvana, listening to lyrics, my, one of my favorite lines is sunburn, freezer burn, 

I just love the idea of sunburn, freezer burn, right? It's just like, I,

Sam: I'm done. I'm good. Like

Mike: I, if I hear it on the radio, I'm all set for a half an

Phil: Just commenting. You picked out a, you picked out a lyric that is contradictory and the same, right? Like that's what we've been [00:47:00] talking about and

Mike: and, and, and it's just, I just love the play, right? I love word play in, in, in

Phil: yeah.

Mike: and, it's hard to know sometimes when, when, and now I'm really risking going down a rabbit hole with Sam that, if I'm listening to Elliot Smith, I can't figure out, and I don't spend time trying to, 'cause it doesn't matter. But to answer your question, I don't know if I'm reacting to 

Sam: If I'm reacting to,

Mike: the music

Sam: or if I'm reacting to the

Mike: performance and how

Sam: performance

Mike: the communication is.

Sam: because at the end of the day, like,

Mike: the pasta, it's just like, I just get to experience it in its totality. 

Sam: but as

Mike: a musician and somebody who's inside the art form a little bit, I'm curious.

Sam: like

Mike: I'll

Sam: there and

Mike: I'll be in, I'll be like, well up

Sam: I take to, either

Mike: or, and I'm just like, what is it? it the performance? Is it the lyrics? Is it the chord progression? I don't know.

It's [00:48:00] just the whole thing,

Sam: can I, this is a perfect place that I'd, I'd like to contribute. And, but right in this particular place, because, you know,

words are so powerful and, even in the summation of this observation, you brought up the word trust.

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam clone: a few minutes ago, and we were talking about perfect as a fault and fault lines change and how that kind of provoked this, this tangent. Um, and I, I feel like trust is such a powerful and encompassing word. Believe is such a powerful and encompassing word. It means so many things. And this lyric in the context of some really interesting word play. I think Michael Stipe is a genius personally. Um, and, I just wanna read 

It says, when I was young give and take and foolish said, my fool awake when I was young fever fell my spirit, [00:49:00] I will not tell. You're on your honor. On your honor, trust in your calling. Make sure your calling's true. Think of others. The others think of you. Silly rule, golden rules 

Phil: make 

Sam: practice. makes perfect, perfect is a fault. And fault lines change. believe. I believe my humor is wearing thin and change is what I believe in 

I love how powerful, um, words like belief trust and observation and making space for, for the on highness of all of that. You know what I mean? 

Phil: I think so. Like right before the, the adage that you pulled out, it was about like rules and the golden whatever, right? um, changing and, pushing back against like rules that don't make sense. AndI think that's, that's really powerful too. again, like this Feels like an outsider perspective where I see the rules.

They don't make sense. I'm not [00:50:00] beholden to them. Right? And this is not perfection. And by the way, these rules are constantly changing. Your idea of perfection is constantly changing. There is no idea, there is no perfection. Right?

Mike: practice. Practice makes

Sam: it, Ase. I love it. I love it, man. Hey, so listen, we are gonna wrap 'cause we could literally do this all day. and I'm not gonna make this a big dramatic wrap. I'm gonna make this wrap actually speak into and live into the idea that we are friends, that this conversation has no end. That I'm gonna enjoy the, the continuum of this growth with you as a friend, Phil and you, Mike, after we hit stop on this record.

And I want to encourage people listening and sharing this space with us to do the same thing. Take this mode into your life, into your relationships, and into the rest of your day. Yeah.

Mike: Good 

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: Thank

Sam: Thank you.

Mike: you. Thank [00:51:00] you. 

Sam: You know,

Mike: so

Sam: obviously we

Phil: Yeah,

Mike: It's a pet project. It's

a 

Sam: creative outlet

Mike: at least speaking for myself. and 

Sam: when Sam shared

Mike: your initial feedback to that, I think it was that particular episode, I think it was perfect as a fault and fault lines change might be the

Sam: Maybe

Mike: that he told me you had listened to and,

Phil: probably.

Mike: kind of shared your experience of listening to it with him.

I was just like......WHAT?!

Awesome. Somebody listened to this? And I've got a couple, couple experiences like that too, that I had teed up in case it made sense to bring them into this episode. But, um, really enjoyed, everything that you shared with us today. Really good stuff, man.

Really appreciate you taking the time to do it.

Phil: Thank you for bringing me in. I, I love these conversations. Hopefully there's some nuggets of

different perspective in there.

Hey, it's Sam and Mike, and we appreciate you coming on this journey with us today. We hope that if you enjoyed it, you'll tell a [00:52:00] friend, or better yet, share a link to this podcast and let your community know directly how it impacted you. That would really help us reach more listeners just like yourself.

Thanks again for listening today. Please feel free to email us at info@maximeqpodcast.com. To share a favorite maxim or adage that you might like us to consider for a future episode or perhaps just leave a kind message, maybe some feedback. Till next time, make it a great day.

Mike: