Perception is a Mirror

What does it really mean when we say Perception is a Mirror? In this thoughtful and deeply personal episode of Maxim EQ, hosts Mike Baumer and Sam Wahl are joined by Los Angeles-based artist, producer, and event professional Vera Lee to explore the idea that the way we experience the world is often a reflection of what’s happening within us.

Drawing from her work in live event production, creative pursuits, and personal journey of self-discovery, Vera shares how confidence, identity, and emotional awareness shape the way we interpret our surroundings, and how others respond to us in return. The conversation touches on everything from professional growth and creative expression to the evolving nature of identity, perception, and human connection.

Along the way, we examine the tension between how we see ourselves and how we’re seen by others, the role of agency in shaping our lives, and why personal growth is less about becoming someone new and more about the development of who we truly are.

A candid, insightful conversation about growth, self-awareness, and the stories we tell ourselves about who we are.

Thanks for joining us!

Mike and Sam

Transcript

Perception is a Mirror
===

Vera Lee: I am a little bit of a smart ass, and I have perfected this in such a way where it comes off as like charming almost. It adds to my charisma. You don't have to be an entertainer to be a performer and in a job you are performing.

Sam: This is Maximi QA show that pushes back on the memification of meaning. In each episode, we explore a familiar phrase through thoughtful conversation that blends unique perspectives and lived experience. Today we're joined by Vera Lee, a talented artist producer based in Los Angeles, to explore the idea that perception is a mirror.

This was a particularly insightful conversation. We hope you enjoy it. 

Mike: Now Maxim EQ with Sam Wahl and me, Mike Baumer.

Mike: What up, Sam Wahl?

Sam: How Are

you? 

Mike: I'm well, thanks. How are you?

Sam: I'm, I'm couldn't

be 

better. 

Mike: Wow. It's impressive.

Sam: finally getting, uh, and you can't tell 'cause I'm in a cave right now, but the weather is just

incredible outside. 

Mike: Yeah,

yeah.

Sam: something degrees and sunny.

Mike: I'm excited today. I mean, I say this every time, but I really am excited, because our guest today. Vera Lee, is a person who was an employee of mine was like a wee kid. so this is going back 10 plus years ago, 10 years over, 10 years ago now, I think, um, that I met Vera, and, she worked for my restaurant business. [00:02:00] we did a lot of festival catering and craft services, catering and stuff like that. but I spent a lot of time with her especially, I guess it's not gonna get me in any trouble to say this now, but, you know, I definitely had favorite employees. and I spent more time with her than I did with most of my other employees because, I really enjoyed talking with her. and she taught me a lot about music because she was very, music savvy, and was always turning me onto what was hip and cool with the younger crowds.

Sam: But at any rate, she's gone on to, from hospitality and restaurant work to working in the production, business. So she's doing, I think, everything from film shoots to live concert events, to, you know, all kinds of stuff. I'm sure she'll, maybe she'll tell us about it, I don't know. but, uh, you know, she's, she's also a musician and a music creator, um, a genre that I don't really understand or know much about electronic music, you know.

But, uh, she can tell us more about that too. she's just an incredible young [00:03:00] person. And, one of those people kind of like you and I, that having a long conversation was effortless. 

You know what I mean? That kind of person. So, um, you know, so

this 

is, 

Mike: Well, then she sounds like the perfect guest for Maxim EQ. So with that, why don't I go ahead and invite her to the conversation.

Sam: Let's do it. 

Mike: 

Good 

Vera Lee: hi, Sam. Good morning.

Sam: on.

Vera Lee: What's up guys? I know I woke up early on a on the winter, on a weekday.

Mike: way to lower expectations right out of the gate. 

Vera Lee: Yes. 

Sam: know. so just for our listening audience so that they understand what you mean by that. We're talking to Vera from Los Angeles, and we are, this conversation is spanning the nation's time zones

right 

now 

Mike: Oh yeah.

Sam: Mike and Central, and I'm in the East coast, time zone. So yeah, we really are just, [00:04:00] just crushing it here.

And we had, and that required

the 

Mike: The only

Sam: one of us here that works in the, in the music industry to get up the earliest.

Vera Lee: Yep, yep. Do it. I do it for you, Sam. Anything for you?

Sam: probably it's safe to say that in LA you're probably the only person up at this hour.

Vera Lee: No, that's definitely not true. The tr, the traffic starts depending on which direction you're going. Traffic starts at like six 30 in the morning.

Sam: Gosh. 

Yeah. 

Mike: Ouch. Hey, 

Vera Lee: pretty gnarly.

Mike: nice to meet you and thank you for doing this, 



Sam: Um, so, so we're here to talk about a maxim. Um, and that's what we do. And when we gave you a list of maxims, you chose, perception is a mirror. And I love that. I think it's gonna be, I know you well enough to know that this is gonna be a really juicy conversation, um, but I'd kind of like to start it out by asking you a question that popped into my consciousness about this.

And maybe this will [00:05:00] be a great way to kick this conversation off. Maybe not, I don't know. But I feel like this maxim, uh, is going to, is gonna hit different people differently kind of out of the gate without processing it too much. And so my question to you is, when you hear perception is a mirror, or when you read that for the first time, would you categorize that as something that that felt kind of destabilizing or off-putting a little bit?

Or would you categorize it as that made you feel liberated or affirmed in some way?

Vera Lee: I think, uh, today the answer is liberated and affirm, but I think on different days that could be a different answer.

Sam: Ah,

Vera Lee: Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: I would like to give you the floor to

unpack 

Mike: Yeah, please expand.

Sam: if

you 

Mike: Feel free. 

Vera Lee: Well, it's, you know, I think that the, the biggest reason that I chose the topic, aside from it obviously being the one that spoke to me [00:06:00] the most is I, I think it's, um, I think that's something that, like the idea of perception, like, and our understanding of it is something that changes over time. Um, and I don't know, like I am now in a place in my life where like I can understand that really my attitude and how I'm like walking around the world, the energy that I'm giving off what I'm vibrating like.

Is felt around everybody around me. And you do kind of get what you put out. Um, like most, most of the time, more than most of the time, like 99% of the time, like if I'm having a bad day, it's because of something that's going on internally. And if I feel like the world around me is like also kind of giving me shit like that is a direct result of like how [00:07:00] I am feeling.

Um, but then like there's days where I feel like I'm on top of the world and then you're walking around and you know, you strangers are just smiling at you as you're walking by. And it really is just like, it's kind of like self realization. It's like acknowledgement. It's just like understanding that you are the master of your universe.

Um, but also like, then you understand yourself, but then you're, you gotta apply that to everybody else and you know, so if somebody is, you know, like being negative towards you, that is also very much like they got something going on. They're not having like a good time at, at, you know, that current moment or, you know, they're going through a rough patch, whatever it may be.

And any negativity that's getting thrown your way is also a reflection of that person as well. Um. 

Sam: I, [00:08:00] I love where you're going with this. So, I mean, clearly you're not, you're not a passive recipient of events, you know, I mean, you're saying that right out loud, you know? Um. And your interpretation isn't, isn't fixed. Right. But my question for you is this, like, so is this, is this kind of like, you know, when you buy a certain model of car, all of a sudden you noticed only that car on the road kind of thing? Or do you think that this is deeper and more connected to that? Do you think that there is some sort of like kind of shared vibration or consciousness or energy, know, around us with other humans and, and that, that we are, you know, is there something, is there something deeper that precedes how we interact and the kind of energy we get back from other people? You know what I mean?

Vera Lee: Yeah, totally. Um, I, I hate to like be be in the middle, but like, I feel like it's kind of a little bit of both as well. Like, for example, [00:09:00] I, one day I looked outside, I was just like walking to my car and then I noticed, uh, some crows. And I felt like I hadn't like seen crows in like a really, really long time.

Or I just like simply wasn't paying attention. And then I started paying attention and I swear I saw crows every day for like three months straight. But also like, yeah, no, we are connected. Like that shouldn't be like any sort of like argument or like, you know, like we're, we're people we're here on this earth and whether or not you want to believe that this is like a tangible reality or not.

And that's a whole other thing that we could go off on. Like we are absolutely like. Connected as beings and it all is energy and it all vibrates and it is all felt, you know? But I do think that it's absolutely true that if you start [00:10:00] like paying attention to certain things, if you decide like, okay, I'm gonna be out, be out on the lookout for this, like, you're gonna start seeing these things, you know, it's like the whole like outta sight, outta mind of it all. But like, if it's in your mind, then it's gonna be at the forefront and you're gonna be paying attention.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: it. I feel like you just touched on a couple of things that, um. correct me if I'm, you know, if you don't see it this way, but tie back to a couple of thoughts that I had going into this session. Um, is I feel like there's definitely some reoccurring themes that come up during these conversations that Sam and I are having with other guests, almost regardless of what the actual maximum or adage is that we're exploring.

And so let me go with this one first. You said your perception is, changing. Right. And um,it just reminded me of, of something that was referred to in an earlier episode where he said,It's like you never walk in the same river twice, Because you're different. The river's different. And so that's one thing [00:11:00] that struck me while you were sharing that with us. And then the other thing was, Some of the origins of this maxim in this quote that you chose. It's a little bit longer.

We kind of truncated it to hopefully leave it a little bit more open to interpretation and have it be, I mean it's far from abstract, but have it be a little less guiding, so to speak. 

Um, 

Vera Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Mike clone: anyway, it's attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson and its perception is a mirror, not a fact. And what I look on is my state of mind reflected outward And that kind of reminded me of the whole, well, Phil brought this up, Sam, where's a little bit of a flywheel kind of effect going on, right? Like you're being influenced by your environment and then you're also influencing your environment at the same time. And so the Ralph Waldo Emerson thing goes to You know, the both sides of it, right? Like

Sam: right.

Mike: the energy of both sides of it, the perception of both sides of it. How you feed back into [00:12:00] what it is that's, you know, that you're reacting to and perceiving The circular nature of 

Vera Lee: Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: Yeah. A

Vera Lee: Love that.

Sam clone: it's inevitable, Vera, that we end up circling back to, references to other maxims and other discussions that we've had because, because humanity's just. Equal parts complex and equal parts, you know, Very predictable.

the whole genre is poignant for me, especially now in my life because I'm very mantra oriented. I'm a person who's kind of working a lot on interdisciplinary stuff just to kind of enjoy the later years of my life as a better person. And, um, enjoy the agency in this maxim.

I enjoy that aspect of it. I feel like it's a reminder for me. that I have agency at all times. Uh, and, I also need to be a regulator or a negotiator, between my, my parts and myself at all times too. [00:13:00] I'm interested in knowing from you, if you can share for the interest of our listeners and, and for maybe even Mike, a little bit about kind of like your work and like what you do, and then also like how, you know, this kind of broader mindset or awareness like, uh, helps you or as helping you evolve as a, as a

professional 

Mike: Oh yeah, great question.

Vera Lee: Yeah. Um, so yeah, I work in event production, you know, say, saying that, oh, I'm up on the morning on a weekday in the winter. Uh, so I'm, I'm in my slow season right now, so, uh, you know, not as busy as I normally am. Uh, weekends, I'm kind of like a weekend warrior till about, um, April-ish, and then things get crazy.

Um, but yeah, no, so I've been working in event production for, I mean, you guys were kind of Sam, me and Sam used to work together. Um, that was kind of my in to that world. Um, and then I started actually doing like, stuff, like behind the scenes. And so now I've been doing it full time since 2017, [00:14:00] so basically a decade.

and yeah, to answer the second part of your question, you know, it's just, it's been such a journey of. I've been struggling my entire life with just like trying to be confident with like, who I am. Um, and then so like having to do that just like in your personal life, but then like taking it into like your professional life as well, where in your professional life you kind of gotta, you gotta wear a little bit of a mask to a certain degree.

Like you can't let 'em see you sweat type deal. Um, I think, and I think just like along the way, and like COVID really played a big part in this, you know, like the world stopped for everybody and I had a lot of time to really like sit back, relax, and reflect and just like, kind of like figure out how I wanted to like, go about my day to day and like how I wanted to like present myself and like be heard, be felt in the workplace.

Um, [00:15:00] and like it's a confidence thing too, honestly, like it's taken me a really long time. I, I'll be the first person to admit that like, kind of most of like my jobs and everything like that have kind of just like fallen into my lap to a certain, like, to a certain point. And it really wasn't until like the last like couple years where I started to get like proactive with like, oh, like I actually, these are the things that I actually like, want, and like I have like a destination I'm trying to get to.

Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it goes back to what I was saying in the beginning, just the whole thing of understanding that like your energy is being felt. Everybody's got energy that they're putting off. And like, it's like, especially in the work life, like it can be a head trip. It can be a head trip when you're like doing your job trying to just like, go about your day, do your best, but then like feel like all this negative energy around you and like a professional setting.

Um, but like you just gotta [00:16:00] get to this point where you're just like. This is all noise. None of this ultimately matters. I just need to focus on what I'm doing. And I also need to be a little, like, proactive and loud about it because, you know, squeaky wheel gets to grease. Uh, that whole thing, like a sad reality of life is that you can work really hard and you can do a good job and you can know you're doing a good job, but you also just can't expect somebody like who's in a higher position than you or like your boss to come along and be like, I see you, and like, I wanna like give you a raise.

Or like, I want to give you like a higher position. Like in some cases that might happen, but you also have to be like, Hey, like I'm over here, I'm doing this, and like, I would like to, you know, be doing more. Um, so yeah, I don't know if that really answers your question or not.

Mike: It's like if that's not your natural state or necessarily what you, put a premium on, right? Like, [00:17:00] let's say it's the actual work and the quality of the work and the results of the work kind of thing, right? But this other thing is also really important as it relates to developing and creating new opportunities and being seen and advancing and that kind of thing. have you found a style for doing that that works for you? That's kinda like true to your personality, but also helps advance, what you're trying to progress.

Vera Lee: Oh yeah. I'm a little bit of a smart ass, and I, Sam can definitely attest to this. And I have perfected this in such a way where like, it, it comes off as like charming almost. Like, it's like it add, it adds to my charisma. Um, but like I have a great, I have, I saw this movie last night, uh, it's called Crime 1 0 1.

It was very like, it was an okay film, but this like, relates to what you just asked me, like the main character in the movies played by Liam Hemsworth. He's this guy and, and you can tell in his personal life that he's like, like the biggest thing I noticed watching this movie is [00:18:00] that he doesn't make eye contact with people.

Like ever like, he goes on a date with a woman and he's kind of like fidgeting around and like can hardly like look at her and like always like, like pulling with his hair. There's, but then like once he enters into like professional mode, like once he's like doing his job, he becomes like the smoothest person.

Like you've ever seen like, just like straight and like that, like, you know, the whole like mask thing. Like, it's almost easier when you know you're not like completely like stripped down, you know, when there's like no likes when you're like in your personal life and you're no stakes, it's almost. Easier to be in like a situation where you're just like, okay, I have to do this, I have to do this. Like I'm getting paid. Like, you know, things are like actually like on the line and you can like become a little bit of a different person to a certain degree. And I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to say that like I'm a different person at work, but

Mike: uh, [00:19:00] inauthenticity to it. For, to both 

Vera Lee: Yeah,

Mike: true. Right? I mean, you could 

Vera Lee: exact. Exactly. 

Mike: Yeah, 

Vera Lee: yeah, yeah. yeah. Like you don't have to be an entertainer to be a performer and in a job you are performing. 

Mike: point. 

Sam: it sounds to me also like, You are a person who's very accountable about how, what mode you're in, especially when you're at work, how you're affecting other people, how you're serving other people. I'm guessing that you're a person who doesn't just take the way that you react to someone.

You're perception as truth, that you're probably You're probably thinking to yourself, is this distortion, is this projection? Is this, uh, you know, uh, is this proportionate? You know, um, I wrong to assume that about you? 

Vera Lee: No, not at all. Yeah, not at all. You, you know me, Sam. I know it's been, I know it's been a while, but you know me. 

Sam: things

don't change. Yeah. you've always had this elevated emotional intelligence about you. But I, if I'm [00:20:00] being completely honest with you, I don't know to what level I was perceived by you as investing in knowing you deeper and understanding you deeper. Um, I like to think that that's just who I am in relationship with other people and that hopefully you felt like I was knowing you and, and, and caring to know you deeper. Um. All that said, I did feel invested in you when we worked together, when you were a younger person, and I, and I did notice you as a, which is one of the reasons why you're here right now. But I did notice you then as a person who just kind of processed things on a more elevated level and, and was thoughtful but turning so much inward and a person who was, was, uh, invested in evolution and, and evolving and becoming, know, uh, I don't think that was off base, [00:21:00] right?

I mean, that's kind of who you are.

Vera Lee: No, not at all. I mean, for all the listeners you know right now, like I am transgender and I knew at a very young age that I was different. So like from at a very, very like early point in my life, like I had a grasp on just like, oh, like, we're like constantly changing and how you feel today and how you feel three or four years from now.

Might not be exactly the same, might not even be close to the same. I mean, you see this all the time with like, you know, some like big like benchmarks in life. Like soon as people have kids or like as soon as somebody gets married, like they're, you know, like certain things happen in people's lives and like their personalities, like, you know, sometimes we'll just like switch to a certain degree.



Vera Lee: I even have, you know, I have a few tattoos on my arms. Most of them are music related. One of my favorite bands is Tame Impala, and I have a tattoo on [00:22:00] my arm that says, they say people never change, but that's bullshit. They do. And I just remember like hearing that line for the first time and it's just like, you know when you hear something like in music and it just like hits you like a ton of bricks and it just like took me back and like double like on that.

Like I was going through a breakup.

Sam: yeah,

Vera Lee: So just like in that moment when I heard that, I was perceiving that as just like, you know, like, oh, this is about her. Like over time I'm just like, oh no, this applies to everybody and like this, like this is actually about me. Um, but yeah, no, I've always like been okay with the fact that like.

Things that I'm okay with today or things that I believe in today, like I might not believe in them five years from now, but that's because you get new information and we always need to be able and willing to take in new information because if you hit a point in your life where you're just like, okay, this is me.

I figured it out, and I love it, like you're doing it wrong.

Sam: Yeah,

Mike: [00:23:00] Yeah,

Sam: Mike, do you have

Mike: yeah, well kind of, I don't know how much value this is gonna add. It's more of just like recapping in that I feel like a lot of what you were just talking about, and

yeah. 

Sam: Mike, do you have

Mike: yeah, well kind of, I don't know how much value this is gonna add. It's more of just like recapping in that I feel like a lot of what you were just talking about, and thank you for sharing that by the way. Does point back to Sam's original question of like, you 

Sam: Mike, do you have 

Mike: yeah, well kind of, I don't know how much value this is gonna add. It's more of just like recapping in that I feel like a lot of what you were just talking about, and thank you for sharing that by the way. Does point back to Sam's original question of your first take on this phrase, you know, is it affirming?

And then I couldn't help but think about what that process must have been like, what that evolution must have been like for you I'm gonna in eloquently ask my question, so please forgive me. But it was like, when I use the word transition, what I mean is life transition more than the mechanical act, so to speak, right?

so [00:24:00] going from where you were to where you are right now, You're putting out energy and um, aspects of you out into the world. You're getting that information back from the environment that you're interacting with. That kind of circular process again, did it help inform you of the direction that you wanted to go in?

In other words, were people perceiving you the way that you would eventually get to being and to knowing yourself better in order to take those steps? 

Sam: Yeah. And before you answer that question, I want to extrapolate 

on 

Mike: Okay. '

Sam: I had the same thing in my mind. It's a great question, Mike, and I hope that I, I'm not, I hope that I'm not extrapolating incorrectly on your question by saying what I'm about to say. If I am, please correct me, but, you know, I want to know the same thing.

Like, I, I want to know, you know, for me, I've had a couple of my closest friends growing up. 

I, I had the privilege of, of being, uh, with them during the course of their coming [00:25:00] of age that they decided to come out as gay men. And, I got two people in mind specifically, but I always knew them. And, um, they didn't, they didn't change as people, you know what I mean? And they didn't change as their personalities didn't change. But I remember like witnessing them engage in this level of, self-agency, of, the whole coming out act they wanted to bring intention to being understood in a certain way. So they would bring. Specific energy and emphasis to this. Would I see that as not too different than other varieties of evolution in our, in our personal to professional life. Even you can compare it to, you know what I mean? Like if you were a person who is covered in tattoos and played in punk rock bands, your entire youth, and then got really, really interested in finance, and all of a sudden you found yourself, you know, uh, having this opportunity to work at a finance bank, you know what I mean?

And, and you're [00:26:00] now, you're this guy who begins to cover up your tattoos and with white collared shirts, and you're changing your vernacular a little bit so you can assimilate and kind of fit in, you know, I kind of see that as similar, but I guess I wanna know from you, like, how does this affect your

process 

Mike: Yeah. I feel like process is the word in a lot of ways, right?

Sam: this has gotta be an added burden, you know what I mean? an additional thing that you're thinking about all the time, where you're conscious of all the time, or do you allow yourself to just relax and

not be 

Mike: Yeah, I was gonna say, or maybe you've got it figured out. You're super liberated. Like we're the ones with all the, all the hangups to get through. It's like, yeah, yeah. I, I feel you. I'm like, enlighten us, 

Sam: I 

Mike: that's the case. Yeah,

Sam: assumption 

Mike: yeah, 

Sam: folks that are, that are doing this kind of transition must be burdened with this kind of, this inter dialogue constantly about how to be perceived by others. And then I'm like, that's ridiculous. I, I, who

am I to 

Mike: yeah. We don't know. Yeah. And, and, and you're gonna share your perspective with us. I mean, it's one perspective, right? [00:27:00] Like we're not 

Vera Lee: Right.

Mike: to represent an entire, category just from your perspective. Like, and that's why I 

Vera Lee: I'll do it. 

Mike: us, 

Vera Lee: represent everybody. Um,

Mike: like we're, we're we're in a conversation with you. We're interested in your perspective. 

Sam: Yeah. 

Vera Lee: Yeah. yeah, No, it's, um, no, I definitely still struggle with it, much less so than I did, um, even like a few years ago, which I'm like super, super grateful for, but. I mean, I still very much have a hard time, like if I'm like going like out, out and, you know, just like getting like dressed up and trying to be perceived as like femme as possible, wearing makeup, the whole, you know, I, it's really hard for me to do that alone.

Like, I feel so much more comfortable if I am at least with one of my friends, then it's just like, I'm here with my friend, I'm having a good time. I really don't give a fuck about what else is going on around me. But [00:28:00] if I'm like out in the world, one thing that, and this is always even before I like, 'cause I didn't even realize I was like transgender until like.

After high school, I knew I was different at a young age. Um, you know, like it was all a very like, slow process of just like, oh, like let's put on my mom's shirt, let's do this, let's do that. And it's like, you know, like you don't know until you try. And like, I didn't even know I was pansexual until somebody told me what that term was.

And that's when like the light bulb went off in my head. I was just like, oh, that's me. I like everybody. Like that's what I am. Um, but. I am in a good place now where like, you know, like I've been on estrogen for a few years. Like my body is starting to change. And so like, my, like casual look like I'm always wearing like tank tops from Target and like, you know, like flared jeans and like, you know, like, and I feel good and like, that's like easy for me, but to like actually like go out in the world and like, you know, [00:29:00] like really, like go for it.

Like I still like, kind of need that safety blanket of just like, oh, I'm with like a friend, or I'm like with my friends and like, that helps me out a lot. Um, because like, I'm gonna, I get misgendered every day. Um, and I will probably still get misgendered after I get like my surgeries and everything like that.

And that's just kind of like a part of like, like I've like come to like accept that and like, you know, like I am as okay with that as I think I can be. Um. But yeah, at the end of the day it's all ultimately just noise. And it comes down to like me just still continuing to have to do like the self work of just like, you know, like eyes are always gonna be on you.

If you stand out in any way, shape or form, people are going to look at you and the people that are gonna look at, uh, look at you with disdain or disgust or actually even take [00:30:00] it as far as like saying something like nasty to you. They got their own issues and they're in a much worse place than you are.

And that's kind of like how I grapple with that and how I'm like, okay with it. 

Mike: Good for you. 

Sam: Yep. 

Mike: Um,as somebody who doesn't for any number of reasons. I mean, there are lots of different ways that people can draw attention to themselves wanted or unwanted, right. But it's like, by design or what have you. Right. Just naturally. Or, or for, for some other reason. But I, I would imagine that.Based on what, you just shared.It's like, let's say nonverbal, right? are your, are your, receptors so tuned that you can, actually read the reactions even if they're not explicit or, or that clear? like you just said, it, it, not all attention is good, bad, or sometimes even neutral, right?

It's like there's, there's, something or someone is having attention drawn to them, it could be for any number of reasons. And so what I'm, what I'm trying to ask you is does it like elevate the sensitivity [00:31:00] of it to the point where you can actually interpret the, reactions On a much subtler level than I, might. Does that make sense? just 

said from, from friendly to 

Vera Lee: I must, I'm.

Mike: or whatever. Right. Like even without the explicit carry through can do, do you go right to like, this is how this person's perceiving me. This is how that person's perceiving me, et cetera.

Vera Lee: Uh, yeah, but it definitely depends on like the state of mind that I'm in. I think I'm, I'm much, I'm much more like, I don't, I don't know if hyper aware or hyper fixated is the proper term, but like, if I'm like, not like in a good goodest place as like I could be, then I will like kind of like latch on to like any sort of like feelings that I'm feeling around me.

And that's like, that's the empath in me, you know,

Sam: Well, 

Vera Lee: Perception is a mirror.

Sam: also like, you know, can feel destabilizing when it's about, you know, controlling or controlling how [00:32:00] others perceive you or controlling how others experience you. and then there's this question, this internal question, and that, that my judgments might be flawed. Uh, my 

Mike: Yeah, 

Sam: be 

misdirected, uh, 

Mike: but you definitely brought it back to a place of agency and just kind of like owning your own, you know, it's like, Hey, whatever. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, good with this. I'm, comfortable, so fuck y'all. And however, everybody's,

you know, reacting to anything. And that goes for anybody, you know.

Sam: Yeah, I was just

Vera Lee: Yeah.

Sam: for, from a, you know, and I, and, and albeit, recognize it as, as far less consequential, I'm sure on a daily basis. But for me, you know, knew me the end of my musical life. And prior to knowing you, I had been a full-time musician, you know, and that's the first half of my adult life.

I was known as a singer, I was known as a 

Vera Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Sam: a performer. Um, and then I became a dad or a [00:33:00] stepdad. And then I became, you know, a business owner and other things. Uh, and I am, I have been, it's funny, I, I was just thinking about this, um, literally in the last five minutes while we're talking about this, I have been in my own transition of sorts for the last, over the last 15, 20 years. You know, uh, it still trips out.... I flew out to California for a show. A friend of mine was putting on a show for a reunion for his old band. Um, and this is a guy I was in a band with when we were, when we were kids, when we were, you know, teenagers and in our twenties. And, um, we were a big enough deal back then that we had fans and he had warned me ahead of time, some of those fans from back then are gonna be at this show and some of them might recognize you. And I was like, oh, that'll be weird. Boy, it was weird. was weird. I mean, and not in a bad way, but I'm saying like I am, that is so far from who I am and how I identify myself now, to, to have like [00:34:00] grown middle-aged women approaching me like nervously, you know, you're Sam Wahl from the, you know, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm just like, oh my God. Like, you know, it was, it was really funny. But, but it was also like it, I stepped outside of myself for a minute and was like, oh, you like. I, I rarely anymore, I rarely think of myself as a musical person, as a musician. I'm so far, I'm so far from that now, um, by sheer evolution, not necessarily, um, by conscious choice.

Vera Lee: Mm-hmm.

Sam: I'm, I'm realizing that I really, if I, you know, it's always there. And if I, if I, I want to reengage with that part of my identity legacy, that, that's always there for me to, to negotiate that and to reintegrate that into my life again. You know, and, and,

so 

Vera Lee: Mm-hmm.

Sam: that thought process out loud, just [00:35:00] now, I'm realizing that like, you know, it is kind of a holistic thing.

Like we transition, you know, we, you know, I feel like, and I want to be corrected if I'm wrong here, transitioning feels like it's an expansion. But it doesn't necessarily replace something, right? We're not replacing who Vera used to be. are expanding Vera into, new versions Vera. Is that, would you say that that's fair to say that, or would you say that, would you say that this does feel like a, sort of a negating or a replacement of, uh, who Vera was as a young person?

Vera Lee: I think no, I, I would go with the expansion part because I, you know, I personally don't feel that I like my core values and my beliefs. Like as a little, as a little kid, I like completely [00:36:00] understood like. We're all people, we're all meant to be here. The golden rule, just be kind to one another. There are certain things that, you know, we do live in a, you get older and you understand that we do live in a very gray world, but there are certain things that are black and white.

And you know, like even though like I am changing, like my physical appearance, um, I'm just becoming the person that I was always meant to be. It is an, it is an evolution, you know, and we're all capable of that. 

Mike: You know, 

they're, Yeah. 

Vera Lee: Yeah. 

Mike: I love it. 

Vera Lee: Yeah.

Sam: Yeah. 

Vera Lee: And like, I re I remember, um, you know, this is something that's always stuck with me. I, you know, 'cause like when we first met Sam and we were working together, like, you know, like, I don't even think I, I wasn't even out out yet. I didn't come out until like 2017, you know, with being, you know, trans and.

I remember talking to Jenny, uh, we were doing an event or [00:37:00] something and I was kind of like going through like a little bit of a rough patch and, 'cause I had started, like, I initially was taking hormones when I was in Chicago, but then like towards the end of my Chicago stint, like I was not in a good place.

I was in a terrible relationship. Like there's a, there's a reason I'll, I left and we'll just leave it at that. Um, but I remember like talking, you know, to Jenny and I was like, you know, like, I don't even, like, maybe I don't want to actually like, you know, fully transition, you know, maybe I don't even wanna like, be on hormones.

And she said like, well, even if you don't like transition, like you still are Vera. Like that is who you are. And that just, that just like stuck with me, you know. I got an email the other day from this like, uh, service that I use that's called Plume.

And, um, people like Microdose now microdosing is like such a huge fad. Like, you know, with like drug use. Like people are microdosing their transitions now. People, people are microdosing, estrogen, like, [00:38:00] it's just like, it's everywhere. But you know, like every, everybody moves and evolves at their pace. But as long as you are e evolving as a human, 

Mike: Mm-hmm. 

Vera Lee: power to you.

Sam: I love that Yeah. I 

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: I could 

Mike: Yeah. 

Vera Lee: Hmm.

Sam: Yeah. I love 

Vera Lee: Let's pull some money together. Let's go.

Sam: No, that, listen, 

I 

I wanna 

say this out

loud. I 

had no expectation. Um, and I, I really mean this when I say this, um, I did not have an attachment or an expectation of you coming on here and talking about your gender transition at all. I knew that you'd be a great person for this 

Mike: Mm-hmm. 

Sam: based on 

the merits of who 

you are, a hundred percent. Um, because I remember Bobby Mandich, and I could,

Vera Lee: Yeah.

Sam: had this, 

Mike: Mm-hmm. 

Sam: this same 

conversation with 

Bobby Mandich, you know what I 

mean?

Vera Lee: Right, right.

Sam: I really want you to know that, that this wasn't about, uh, going there.

I'm, I'm grateful that you've decided to be so open and share so [00:39:00] much, but, um, um, it really, it, it didn't occur to me how 

Mike: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Sam: is until we arrived here. You 

know? Uh, 

Vera Lee: Yeah, no, there's a reason that that's the one that jumped out at me.

Sam: Sure, sure, 

Mike: theme. Um, Hey I don't know if there's anything, if there's any meat on this bone, so to speak. Right. But I also, there's another. like it keeps coming up in, in the conversations that Sam and I are having Um, one of the reasons is a, a common denominator to a lot of 'em in terms of having musical backgrounds or being artists and creators and stuff like that, right? Um, and I don't think that this is an extension of perception is a mirror, but it feels like it's adjacent enough to bring it up.

But it's that whole saying of a work of art is completed by the viewer, right? Like that, that the creator of something makes it, but it's really up to the recipient and, and the, and, and whoever's appreciating [00:40:00] it to kind of finish it Because once, once you've done your thing and you put it out into the world, it's up to the world to make of it what they will and to individually, um, interpret it or have their own take on it. Does anything about that resonate with you or tie into the, the core maxim that we got together to talk about? 

Vera Lee: Well, the one thing I'll say in regards to that, um, I just, I, so I'm, I've become like a big, like, 

I mean I've always enjoyed movies, but I feel like now, like in my thirties, like I'm a lot more into like film than I am into like music. Um, and there's this film podcast that I listen to, it's called, uh, the Big Picture and then the re watchable, it's all under the ringer banner.

It's a great, like, if you like any sort of entertainment, check them out.

but there was, um, there was an episode and then so, so I was watching the rewatchables, which is under the same network, and they do, basically, they go back and they watch movies and like, they kind of just like, like they watch it beforehand and then they talk about it for like an hour and a half to like two hours.

And they have [00:41:00] categories. It's really fun. And they did Zodiac, which is a David Fincher movie, and they were quoting David Fincher on some things. And Zodiac's also one of my favorite movies of the 21st Century. But David Fincher had a line where he said, uh, movies are never finished, they're abandoned. 

Mike: love it. 

Vera Lee: Uh, 

Sam: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Vera Lee: and it's like, it, I feel like that ties into what you were just like saying, it's just like, you know, like, you, you don't even, like, you, I can meticulously like, work on something and like never put it out, like, you know, like, and that's like totally my choice.

But once you put something out into the world. 

It no longer belongs to you, 

Mike: one of 

Vera Lee: especially in the internet age. Like it live.

Mike: that keeps coming back in this, Yeah. yeah. lives in perpetuity forever, and it no longer is yours.

uh, 

Vera Lee: You add something that, that is, you put it in there, but yeah. No, I mean, like that, you know, you get these like bursts of creativity, you [00:42:00] get inspiration, but then like those are, those are fleeting. You know, nobody, like, I've never met a single person in my entire life that's just like, oh yeah. Uh, I'm in it. Like, I'm like constantly like, I got this. Yeah. No, I don't think that exists in the world because these vessels are constantly traveling and entering new people, entering new creatives, just like, okay, it's your turn to do something.

Mike: flow and creativity.

Sam: that

Mike: Yeah, yeah,

Sam: a Petri

Mike: yeah. 

Sam: for

Vera Lee: Yeah, 

Sam: cancer, uh, to me. Yeah. I'm not sure that's healthy. Yeah. 

our friend Phil, uh, is a jazz musician, and he

was making a, comparison being engaged in a, in a session with other jazz musicians doing, improvisational jazz.there's this. there's of trust, there's a level of, shared adventurism in that there's an abandonment. There's all kinds of elements that come into play in being relatable or being integral as part of an a [00:43:00] group improvisational effort. You 

know, and as he was talking 

about that, like it kept occurring to me over and over, like, 

Vera Lee: Mm-hmm. 

Sam: life.

That's just,

we are all, we are all improvising. You know, in a studio together. And, and even if you are recording, you know, I mean, I'm basically just reiterating exactly what you just said in different terms. But, you know, even if you are recording segments of 

that, the minute you hit 

stop, 

like, you know, it doesn't give you any sort of proprietorship over what you recorded. You

know, it's, it's done. It's a moment. it's behind You You know what I mean? it will have its own legacy and continue perhaps to have trajectories of effecton other people who witness it, there is 

no beginning and there 

is no

end, and it's, 

we're all just, um, 

Mike: this is also very sorry, uh, uh, uh, butting up very 

Vera Lee: no putting.

Sam: You know?

Mike: also very sorry, butting up very closely against, um, some spinal tapisms 

here. [00:44:00] I mean, I mean, like, we can get all heavy and stuff, right? But I, I, I do want to just throw out there that we're a little bit of, um, you know, of Nigel saying, you know, and what's behind that, and what's behind, what's stopping it and what's behind, what's stopping it. 

So I just, sorry, that just popped into my brain and, uh, I figured it 

Vera Lee: That's great.

So you're, you're saying the podcast is in danger of going to 11 is what you're saying? Got it. Got it.

Mike: Yes, yes. Or Yeah. 

or, uh, also ish. It's a 

Vera Lee: Yeah, yeah, 

Mike: clever and stupid, so 

Sam: none, 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: more black is what 

Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam: me? Yeah. None. 

more black. You know? How much more black could this record be?

Mike: None. Yeah. Yeah. 

Sam: more black. 

Mike: you go. They reached the end, 

know? 

Sam: Well, I mean, I don't, you know, Mike, do you have 

any, I don't really know where else 

to go with this. I mean, I feel like, 

Mike: I, yeah. 

Sam: Satiated 

Mike: Yeah. Uh, it's funny because[00:45:00] growing up with, uh, in, in a half German household with some exposure to the language and having traveled there a getting C's D's and occasional F's in multiple years of German in, junior high and high school for some reason. one of like the seven phrases that stuck with me and that includes, you know, 20 plus trips to the country is "ich bin sate", is which translated as I am Sated, which as an eighth grader, even once you translate it into English, I'm so dumb.

I needed to look up what the English word meant that I just learned in another language. Right? So, like to hear it's, it's just weird because 

sated isn't a word that you hear a lot. So when you just said that you were, I was like, it just. Put me right back into the desk that I sat in, you know what I mean?

Like in, eighth grade, hearing that. But yeah, I, I also, um, am sated, you know, to a large degree, but I would yield to our guest, um, to invite you to, [00:46:00] to expand on or add anything or extend the conversation in any direction that you'd like to or say. I, I, I've had enough of you two. Peace out. You know, 

Vera Lee: Yeah, no. Um, I, I'm really glad that I did this and I'm also really glad Sam called me and he was like, you know, it just dawned on me that like, we actually haven't, like spoken, spoken

in like however many years and we were able to, you know, like talk on the phone and, you know, he was just able to, we were able to catch up a little bit and I'm so glad that we did that 

before we did this.

And, um, yeah, this has been fantastic. Like me and me and just a little bit more backstory on me and Sam, like we have spent many hours. In a U-Haul and we would just always have the best conversations and just never, never a dull moment. And once he reached out to me about this, I was just like, absolutely.

'cause I know exactly how this will go.

Mike: [00:47:00] Yeah, 

I feel like that's also kind of a at least to this point, a 

Sam: that. 

Mike: I feel like that's also kind of a, at least to this point, a recurring 

kinda theme in these conversations. Sam and I, even though we never really disconnected, you know, part of the impetus for doing this was, connecting for longer, more meaningful conversations. And then the idea was to kind of extend that out to, a circle of people that we both probably felt similarly about or that would make for great additions to those conversations. And so hearing that description of your dynamic and relationship with Sam is basically like, yeah, that's what we set out to do.

Now how well or poorly we're doing it is, you know. Not up to us apparently. You know what I mean? Because once we put it out there, it's not ours anymore. 

But regardless, we're trying to enjoy the process and the conversations and 

learning from other people's perspective that we already have a pretty good [00:48:00] idea are going to make it a more interesting 

Sam: 

Mike: you know, opportunity for growth kind of conversation.

So thank you. 

Vera Lee: 

Absolutely. Yeah. No, it's been a pleasure. Truly.

Sam: I want to say in, in parting before we stop recording this, um, I, am, I'm accustomed to being in a mode of big, big Brother to you and, I'm not gonna deny myself that privilege. Um, I just want to say that, people are gonna be unkind, people are gonna be, um, afraid. people behave in various ways. People totalize, other human beings into storylines that, that they are telling themselves in order for them to feel safe or whatever reasons. there are,I love, seeing you in this mode.I love feeling reassured that my old friend, is well, and my old friend is, Taking good care of herself and, [00:49:00] uh, and that she's also 

not 

needing other 

human beings to be super 

humans in 

Mike: order for 

Sam: her 

to see a path for herself. 

I honestly feel 

like you are the kind of person, 

and you were this 

person when I 

Mike: Hmm. 

Sam: back when, and

you're still this person, but you're the path maker. 

and I'm so happy 

to find you still in that space and that you're still that person 

enjoying that superpower. 

Vera Lee: Thank you Sam.

I really, I really, I really appreciate that 

Like 

Sam: thank 

Vera Lee: I, I I hope you already know this, but like the years that we spent working together and getting to know each other and all the talks that we had, like, it stuck with me in a major way. 

I appreciate people who just like, wear their hearts on their sleeves and like, aren't afraid to like expel their emotions and, yeah.

So thank you. And thank you for having me on.

Sam: Rock and roll. I love it. I appreciate it. And let's not be strangers moving forward. This is a great segue into being more accountable 

Vera Lee: Absolutely. And I mean, I shoot if you guys need a third chair, 

Mike: [00:50:00] Yeah. 

Vera Lee: find a guest for a topic, I'll happily come back on. This was fun.

Mike: yeah.

Vera Lee: Yeah, Yeah. 

Mike: Great. Love it. yeah.

Speaker 12: Oh, thank you.Thanks for spending part of your day with us. If this conversation resonated with you, please consider sharing it with a friend who might appreciate it. That's how the show grows, one meaningful connection at a time. And remember, you can always email us at info@maximeqpodcast.com, whether it's to suggest a topic, offer feedback, or just to say hello.

Until next time, take care and make it a great day.