Growth Doesn't Erase Difficulty, It Reframes It

Growth is often imagined as a way to leave life's challenges behind. But what if real growth doesn't eliminate difficulty, it simply changes how we experience it?

In this episode of Maxim EQ, Sam and I are joined by retired UCLA technology manager and former touring musician Greg Vincent to explore the maxim: "Growth doesn't erase difficulty, it reframes it."

Drawing on stories from sports, music, relationships, and career transitions, the conversation explores how maturity gives us the perspective to reinterpret obstacles instead of just trying to overcome them. Greg reflects on the pivot he made as a musician at age 30, discovering that embracing his strengths instead of chasing someone else's definition of success opened unexpected doors. Together, we discuss the value of agency, self-awareness, trusted relationships, and the wisdom that often comes only through experience.

The episode ultimately suggests that growth isn't measured by a life with fewer hardships, but by our increasing ability to recognize difficulty as an opportunity to learn, adapt, and become more fully ourselves.

Sam and I really enjoyed the energy, fun and knowledge that Greg brought to this episode. We hope you enjoy it was well! 

Mike and Sam

Transcript

Growth Doesn't Erase Difficulty, It Reframes It Release
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[00:00:00] 

Sam: I am trying to get better at being in that 20,000 feet up state saying this is what's happening now. It takes a lot of maturity and growth to be at that high altitude, level to. I'm, I'm still trying to get better at doing that. 

Speaker 6: This is Maximi EQ show that pushes back against the memification of meaning.

In each episode, we explore a familiar phrase through thoughtful conversation that blends unique perspectives and lived experience. Today we're sitting down with a brilliant retired UCLA educational technology professional and former touring, a recording musician, Greg Vincent. He chose a really expansive and provocative maxim to unpack growth.

Doesn't erase difficulty, it reframes it. This conversation really caused me to stop and do some reframing of my own. I hope it affects many of you in the same way. Thanks for coming along. [00:01:00] 

Mike: Now Maxim EQ with Sam Wahl and me, Mike Baumer

Sam: I will get a shock mount. 

I think for sure. 

Mike: It'll be worth your while. 

Sam: I'll tell you what's worth my while 

Mike: worth our while.

Sam: Maxim EQ is worth my while. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: Every time. And. 

Mike: Well, I'm I'm hoping to hear some wisdom out of Greg today.

Sam: So Greg Vincent. uh, geez. so my best friend, Jeff Lemons, he was Jeff Lemon's older brother's, best friend. So, you know, I.

you don't, you 

Mike: I know it's closer, but it just sounds funny when you have to like extend it out that far. 

Sam: Well, you can relate though. I mean, you 

Mike: Yeah, 

Sam: an older brother, so 

Mike: I do.

Sam: growing up like your older [00:02:00] brother's bestie.

Right. You know, that was either a good thing or a bad thing. Right? 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: case, 

in this case, 

Mike: yeah.

Sam: Older brothers bestie was a good thing. 'cause he was super 

Mike: Love it.

Sam: he was cooler than Jeff's older brother. No, I'm not gonna say that. That's rude to say that. No, no one's gonna argue that Greg Vincent was like the coolest guy around. and he was in a super cool band and he could play instruments really Well, and he was funny. We just thought he was cool and and now as grownups, know, he's still cool. He's

Mike: Well, 

Sam: still 

Mike: look forward to finding out how he managed to be that consistent 

Sam: Yeah. 

Mike: what I would imagine would be the course of, shoot, what, three, four decades? 

Sam: decades. Indeed. I don't know Greg super well. I 

met him the first time I met him. I was probably 17, so Yeah.

four

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: I just know that, that [00:03:00] he, uh, he lived in LA uh, for most of his entire adult life after having gone to, I think he grew up in, the Placerville area of California.

So, up in the 

Mike: Where's that? Like Sacramento.

Sam: So it's just east of Sacramento. up in the mountains, up in 

the, um, in the foothills, um, of the Sierra Nevada. And, I can't wait to get him on 'cause I want to ask him what the name of that damn band was that he had 

and then he, I know he went on to, to play with a bunch of different people, um, his adult career and including, I don't think exclusively though. Uh, he did tour quite a bit and I think he recorded some with, uh, the band cake. 

Mike: Mm-hmm.

I tried to tee up a Vibra slap sample, but the reality is that I would've had to root it through my system sounds, and I don't actually have one, which is kind of a disappointment in and of itself as I look over off camera here to my pile of stuff. Drums, cymbals, [00:04:00] snare, drums, tambourines, stick.

Tambourines. There's no vibra slap. 

And by the way, I say that not in mockery, but with full respect. I'm a huge fan of the band and I always have been 

Hey, let's, uh, get Greg Vincent on.

Yeah, let's do it. I'm sending him the link right now. 

Sam: a 

Mike: Yeah, 

Sam: eq. Let's do 

Mike: that sounds good.

Sam: right. 

Mike: Well, 

Sam: Greg Vincent,

Mike: welcome. 

Sam: welcome. to 

Mike: you for joining us. Yeah. 

Sam: so psyched to have you today, man. This Is awesome.

Greg: I'm honored to be part of season two. Congratulations on season one.

Mike: you very much. Yeah, 

Sam: because you've been listening to the podcast of, apparently you've listened to a number of these, episodes. I have. You listened to all of them or just a few of them? No. 

Greg: I have.

Mike: Wow. 

Sam: I didn't want to do a big, you know, kind of lengthy introduction and, and fumble over facts, on the way into this thing. So if you don't mind, not just for the listening audience, but also, for my partner [00:05:00] Mike here too. I, I told Mike, I said, you know, I, I met Greg initially when I was 17. I'm now 55. So that was a while ago. and, you were my best friend's. Older brother's best friend, you know what I mean? Um, and we, we resonated because, you were in a cool band. We were all in rock bands and you were older than us and, and you were a better guitar player than any of us.

And so we thought you were really cool, you know? Um, and then who knew that, you know, that a, that we were all gonna grow up and still like each other. And b, that you are gonna end up being such an interesting and cool person outside of playing cool guitar. Um, 

Greg: Well, that's.

Sam: if, first of all, you were part of of a recording band, back in the, in the eighties and I, I can't remember the name of that band.

It had the word Spain in it, 

Greg: Dead in Spain, baby

Mike: Yeah. And you're doing devil horns. So does that mean it was a metal band?

Greg: it with no pointy guitars. However, there is now another dead in Spain that is pointy guitars, 

Mike: it up and [00:06:00] that's what I saw, 

Greg: which is amazing that somebody stole that name. 

Sam: very pointy guitars. Yeah, 

Greg: Yeah, it's not those guys. We were classic rock baby peace.

Sam: Yeah. You guys were good. You guys were really cool. 

Mike: do you mind, this is not an interview by any means, but I would love to learn a little bit more about your background and, how you and Sam have maintained a connection all these years as well, for.

that matter. Okay. 

Greg: We kept bumping into each other through the Lemons Boys and boy, I would go see Ian Faith and uh, just get my hair blown back by Sammy's voice and that fellow Jeff who wrote those songs, 

Sam: Yeah, 

Mike: Hey, so I have a, I have a question for you, Greg, if you don't mind, which is, you responded very quickly when we sent you a handful of maxims, so to speak, to choose from, for this convo, and you fired back really quickly, I think if my memory 

Greg: Oh yeah. 

Mike: Was there, was it 

Greg: Notes.

Mike: that the rest of them didn't do anything for you?

Or was there something [00:07:00] in particular about that one that just kind of resonated 

Greg: the word, it was growth 

Sam: Okay, 

Greg: that was, uh, interesting to me and that's the one that grabbed me.

Sam: so 

Mike: Do you mind expanding? 

Sam: the 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: just for the listening 

Mike: Oh yeah. Duh. 

Sam: Greg chose, uh, to move forward with today was growth doesn't erase difficulty, it reframes it. 

Greg: Or if I can paraphrase, an essential part of growing is the reframing of difficulty.

Sam: Hmm. I love that. 

Mike: Turn it inside out. 

Sam: Yeah. 

Greg: It kind of helped me, uh, uh, think about it a little bit more, but that was, I just turned 60, so I'm very focused on growing, 

Mike: Okay. 

Greg: growing old, growing up, growing, you know, growing wiser, 

Mike: Did 

Greg: growing more patient with 

Mike: or something? I mean, what was it about it? 

Greg: Oh, totally. I mean, we just finished watching the Olympics at the time, 

Mike: Mm-hmm. 

Greg: so there's gonna be a lot of figure skating references, 

Mike: Right on 

Sam: interesting. [00:08:00] I like it. 

Mike: that. 

Greg: the.

Mike: a lot of these episodes involve a lot of studio references, so let's 

Greg: Oh man, 

Mike: a little bit and 

Greg: the uh. 

Mike: into the conversation. 

Greg: Well, it's these young people in, in there. Some of them are young, some of them are veterans. but, the young people you watch growing up before your eyes are pretty, amazing. And, a couple of, of our American, examples, uh, was a girl named Alyssa Lou, who quit skating in 2016. altogether at the age of, uh, 2022 at the age of 16, and, uh, was burned out on it, had burnout at 16.

Mike: Wow. 

Greg: uh, but then it just sort of came back to where, uh, well, I kind of do enjoy this. I'm gonna get back on the ice this time. I'm doing it my way. Um, nobody's gonna starve me. Uh, and I'm gonna do my music. I'm gonna wear my hair the way I like and I'll wear the outfits I want and she won gold at age 20 

Sam: out to be 

Greg: coming [00:09:00] back.

Sam: doing her. 

Mike: Just outta curiosity to it. 'cause this is kind of a cliche, right? It's like what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, so she pulled the plug the first time after burnout, do you know, not to say this is the only measurement of success necessarily, but She get anywhere close to a gold or anything in her previous Olympics?

Greg: She was great. She was, she was excelling and uh, I think she was in Beijing in 2022. So the process was working, but it wasn't enjoyable. But she grew up enough. To say, well, I can do this again, but this time on my terms and I'm gonna reframe these difficulties, so that they, they suit me better.

And she's a, she's a big, strong girl now. she's not starving herself. and she's, it's totally working for her. She's got crazy hair, like punk rock hair and piercings, which is not, you know, fi figure skating thing. And she killed it. And it was so impressive [00:10:00] to see that growth, uh, on, you know, before our eyes really, 

Mike: Do you 

Greg: she's finally enjoying it.

Mike: about her story in between those two periods? Like in other words, you experienced her before the current iteration, you're seeing the results of taking agency or individuality or kind of like owning 

Greg: Agents.

Mike: to this now, whereas maybe she didn't feel like that in the past, do you have any insight into what she did in between those two periods to, develop that, to 

Greg: Well, she's. She's a California girl from Oakland, and, uh, she got into UCLA during that time, graduated high school, got into UCLA. Uh, and so just being a college girl at a really good university meeting, different kind of people outside of. Figure skating. And, you know, she was busy, but just not grinding it out on the ice, you know, just because she's [00:11:00] told to, 

Mike: Right. 

Greg: back, like you say, uh, my agency, she took agency and, uh, I want to do this.

And, uh, it was, it made all the difference. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Greg: And in

Mike: it's like getting outside of a very insular bubble of 

Greg: exactly.

Mike: but, and knowing nothing, but training, training, training, training, training all the time. Right. 

Greg: Exactly. You look at her, she was just this little girl and when she was 16 and

Mike: from just doing that a hundred percent of the time resulted in being able to perform better just a few years later or as 

Greg: right, she, she reframed the obstacles, 

Sam: one, one, 

way that I've heard

this maxim kind of reframed um, is the weight didn't change. You did, and I, I read that earlier today and I thought, well, that's, that resonates because I feel like made a difference here this young lady, um, is how she's experiencing. Being a, a professional skater, right? for [00:12:00] her, the, the whole experience, um, became wrapped up in, uh, some expectations that were, it sounds like imposed on her, like weight, a certain look, perhaps a certain character, a certain way of 

Greg: Totally.

Sam: and so she discovered that what she really needed in order to reframe or change this experience for herself was some agency or sovereignty in, in being able to enjoy it, uh, in her own way and express herself.

And so, just that change, just the, the kind of giving herself permission to begin to express herself in a more personal way was enough of a, was enough of a, an, a shift? Uh, 

Greg: That's growth 

Sam: absolutely. It's 

Greg: right?

Sam: A hundred percent. 

Mike: I don't know much about figure skating, but what little I do know is that, let's just say compared to some other sports potentially, right, is that it is very expressive. And so, it [00:13:00] strikes me as a combination of athleticism, sport and, and performance and creativity, right?

Greg: Right.

Mike: like, uh, getting that additional experience, depth and body to your ability to express yourself in that form. I, I mean maybe that's super obvious, Right.

As opposed to literally the mechanics of of of being a figure skater versus that a little bit more intangible of the, the expression that's a part of the routines. 

Greg: It's totally, it's like some people, you can see 'em skating not to mess up, 

Mike: Ah, yeah. 

Greg: that's not pleasant. 

Mike: Right. 

Greg: They, they don't fall, but it's not pleasant.

Sam: no, AB absolutely. It's, um. It's no different than looking at, you know, early on footage of a, player. Like, let's take Eddie Van Halen for example. You know what I mean? Like, you see, early band footage of those guys, and he was definitely, those guys were all virtuoso players that he [00:14:00] and his brother, you know, both were virtuoso musicians. 

Greg: Totally.

Sam: you know, but it wasn't until they got older and more seasoned and more comfortable in their own kind of skin and character and personalities where they were able to be expressive and kind of relax and into the performative aspect of being, creators, writers, performers that like, you know, I felt like they just got Groovier and better, and better and better.

It's not like his skills 

Greg: We totally.

Sam: got better, but his expressive, expressive nature of how he performed, got more engaging and got better. You know what I mean? Um, 

Greg: We were discussing that during, I think that episode. Uh, don't let what you can't do, get in the way of what you can do. I think I texted you about, uh, van Halen, 

Sam: to remember that. Yeah, 

Greg: the, how they were, they were a covers band originally and just playing dances at, you know, four sets and they couldn't get the. Zep song, it [00:15:00] sounded like Zep, but the the Who song never sounded like The Who.

And that was a difficulty. And then once they progressed a little bit, they, oh, we sound like us. Let's go with that. Let's reframe it. And that made all the difference. The rest is history. 

Sam: that I'm, I'm, I'm hearing a similar testimony to the, the skater that you were just referencing. You, 

Greg: It's totally, 

Sam: they 

Greg: totally the same.

Sam: got to know themselves and, you know, uh, gained the agency of being able to engage with their own creativity, trust themselves a little bit, and, and enjoy the process of, of expressing 

own feelings And, their 

own. 

Mike: I would imagine that 

Greg: And totally.

Mike: it back to this, this saying of, growth doesn't erase the difficulty. I kind of feel like there's difficulty, right? So that suggests that you've gotten over some of these humps.

And I would imagine that once you have a collection of those humps in your rear view mirror it, it should hopefully [00:16:00] result in some additional confidence. And then that, and that confidence also feeds into a stronger performance or, what you're carrying forward into the things that you do. and so I just wonder. Do you guys, does that trigger you at all in any, any 

Greg: Totally snowballs. 

Sam: Yeah. 

Greg: It's kind of a snowball effect and there's so many parallels between sports and music in that way. You know, athletics and creativity. You, you rehearse and rehearse and rehearse and.

Mike: reality is a lot of those difficulties aren't just hurdles. Like some of them can be scarring, you know? So how do you think that, like scars, if at all, play into saying, 

Sam: was, I was just gonna add Mike, we're thinking with one brain here. 

Mike: okay. 

Sam: Um, because I was just gonna say like, to me. An important thing to visit here, an important aspect of this to visit is the, the difference between, [00:17:00] um, growing mature enough, or experienced enough to differentiate between the different varieties of difficulties. There's difficulty that arrives as just hurt and harmful, right? And then there's difficulties that arrive as impactful and helpful and constructive. You know what I mean? And, being able to give agency, and uh, to differentiate in real time 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: between those two is really where you begin to, to make gains and win, I'm 

guessing.

Yeah. 

Greg: Hopefully you get better at discerning between those 

Mike: I feel like 

Greg: two things.

Mike: in some of these conversations too, is, is being able to make that distinction. being able to identify the ones that, uh, might require this level of, of attention and work, you know, to learn from. And other ones that are just of, you know, your, uh, garden variety 

Sam: Yeah. 

Mike: and difficulties. 

Sam: know this 

Greg: All right.

Sam: [00:18:00] Greg, but I, I want to ask if you don't mind, Because I know so little about your experience and your legacy in the music industry. I know that your early band did have some label engagement and you'd had some music business engagement, I'm interested in knowing kind of from you, like a personal, a 

Mike: Firsthand. Yeah. 

Sam: about what we're talking about, about maybe how, how did you find your way in and out of the music industry, and did this maxim and this principle kind of play into some of those decisions at all for you? 

Greg: It really did. I mean, that's why the maxim kind of resonated for me. I was, I was slogging around till about age 30 with, with various bands. Um, and I was like, well, I'm never gonna be the Guitar God guy. And I'm 30 years old now. I'm kind of tired of doing the rock and roll thing and, um, growing to be age 30.

taught me well. I have a, [00:19:00] a, a knack for certain different styles of playing and different instruments. I'm gonna teach myself pedal steel, um, between bands. Now I'm gonna teach myself this and that came from turning 30 basically. I finally just bit the bullet bought one, taught myself, and then from, uh, age 30 to 40, uh, that's when interesting things started happening because I had.

Met the difficulty of my guitar limitations by moving to a different instrument that I'd always loved. And that's kind of a technique in a way, you know, uh, changing instruments, and addressing a new, I learned so much about music just through that. That's how I came in contact with the cake guys.

And, and I've done some, uh, tours in Europe and, and Asia, just 'cause I, I. Took up the pedal steel. I'm not even that good a player, but it is a texture that people, uh, value and

Mike: wild to me about that is that they're both, you know, [00:20:00] they're not that far away from each other in a lot of ways. right.

But you probably learned how to play guitar at a really young age. Right. So as you were developing that skill, I don't know if you were 10 or nine or 13 or whatever, but you weren't 30.

Greg: right.

Mike: didn't have the lived experience as a 30-year-old. So what was that like? Not necessarily picking up a new skill, but hearing music and learning an instrument. Through such a different lens than when you initially learned your primary skill that took you to that point. Was It dramatically different?

Because I feel like you just said it, like, I was hearing music. There's no way you can't hear music differently as a 30-year-old than you heard it as a 10-year-old. So how did that influence how you ended up developing your pedal steel skills?

Greg: It was major, that was a major period of growth, just wood shedding by myself, nerding out on it and trying to gather all of the, uh, info I could. And I did hear music [00:21:00] differently, uh, at 30. And through that instrument, I hear music as numbers now rather than alphabet soup. 

Sam: That's interesting. 

Greg: And, and it, I really learned about chords, chords, ex extensions, chords, morphing into other chords.

'cause that's really what that instrument does. It can turn, you know, an E into an A or to a sus for or to an augmented just with these movements. And it made me think more like an arranger.

Sam: Oh, 

interesting. Who were your gurus? 

Greg: Oh boy. I mean the, I like the West Coast guys like Jay Manus for, you know, he played with the burritos and, and birds and stuff, and he, 

Sam: loud. sorry, 

Greg: sorry,

Sam: That's okay. 

Mike: So we're, we're 

Greg: those.

Mike: we're, we're, 

Sam: I 

Mike: trying to give visual cues. 

Sam: go, 

Mike: Just kidding. 

Sam: keep going on that 

path. 

Mike: Please. 

Sam: the burritos, the Flying. 

burrito. 

Brothers, come on. 

Greg: that's great stuff. the West Coast guys are, are pretty cool. And then, you know, [00:22:00] Pete Drake and, and the guys that think outside of the box. And then, um, Lloyd Green, who's a left-hander, he plays it. I'm a left-hander. He plays it, you know, the way you're supposed to, as do I. But, you know, I like, I always like to, uh, commiserate with lefthanders.

These guys are just incredible musicians and, uh, they, they think like string sections.

Mike: Ah, yeah, I like 

Sam: a sophistication. A hundred percent. I was privy to having a pedal steel player in one of the iterations of our bands in Nashville. Um, Ken Hudson, we had a full-time guy. He played, he was a, 

Greg: Oh, that's awesome.

Sam clone: guy, So he played a bunch of different instruments in our band, but he spent a good amount of time on the pedal steel.

Now he played through an effects pedal . So it was delayed. And It was really fun. It was really fun. Um, 

much you can do.

[00:23:00] going back to, you were talking about some of your influences, some of the American musical submarkets, that popularized instruments like the pedal steel, like, the Bakersfield scene, you know, uh, Tulsa, Oklahoma, you know, there's these like weird, like little, I've always tried to describe like Bakersfield country to people who don't know anything about Bakersfield.

I know [00:24:00] very limited. got a very limited, you know, scope of, of knowledge about that scene. But like, what a weird, I mean, for people who have never driven through Bakersfield or don't even really understand what that is, but understand. But they know on the level of that they, they know like who

Buck Owens is It's like what, uh, how did that occur? That, that 

Greg: Yeah, it's strange. I think it was, uh, there was some oil there and there were a lot of guys coming to, to work the oil fields and then somehow you got Merle Haggard and Buck Owens there, Buck Owens. There's still a big Buck Owens, crystal Palace Club there. It's the strangest place to have a music scene 

Sam: Yeah. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Greg: and then they could go right over the hill and record a capitol.

Sam: yeah, 

Greg: In LA so that there, the studios were not too far away, but yeah, that is a strange place for a, for a scene. 

Sam: weird. 

Greg: But it's uh, I love it. It's very top [00:25:00] indy and very telecaster and even the steel players are, are kind of, uh, reflecting that and 

Sam: Yeah. 

Greg: very chicken picking. So style. 

Sam: aesthetic. There was an 

aesthetic in that, 

Greg: It's true. 

Sam: Yeah. 

Greg: It is great. 

Sam: crazy. 

Greg: 

Sam: getting back 

Mike: yes, please. 

Sam clone: to the maxim. I, I had one other thought that I wanted to bring up and bounce off of you guys when I was being thoughtful about this maxim. again, it's kind of, going into the reframing. Aspect of this, um, and how we do that so often in our lives. and there's almost kind of a pendulum to that effect in how we create a constitution about what, what works for us, uh, behaviorally and, and or in practice in our lives. And what I mean by that is, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine a while back. Um, I've never been at this. Now, please bear with me. This is gonna sound tangential, but it's really not. Um, I've never been a big weed smoker. I don't like what the, what [00:26:00] it does. I don't like how it makes me feel. it doesn't have good results for me. I've had consummate weed smokers correct me in saying you just haven't smoked good enough weed or enough weed, whatever.

You, you haven't practiced enough. Right. Uh, you know, and when I hear that, I'm like, okay. You know what I mean? That, that kind of, I, that lands as horse shit to me. But I will say this, I will say this. A good friend of mine here who's a real professional reefer head, this is the kind of guy he runs a company, he's super successful. Um, you know, but he's a "wake and bake" guy and he's able to metabolize large amounts of marijuana. And I got into a conversation with him about this a while back and I said, you know,I remember when I was drinking, I've been sober 15 years, but when I was drinking, you know, as a drunk, you accommodate you know, being a little inebriated becomes your norm, right?

So that becomes your normal state. And when you're [00:27:00] not in that state, then you feel uncomfortable. And he's like, it's exactly like that with me, with, with weed. And he's like, but I'll tell you what it is. 

I can't remember how he articulated it, but he was basically saying, I have become attached to the challenging state of. being almost inebriated by marijuana. Like, it, it creates enough cerebral chaos for me that it's like, it is the state of that, challenged space that like, keeps me engaged.

He's like, it 

Sam: almost, like, 

Mike: was too easy for him. He needed a little extra something. 

Sam: He's basically saying, it creates a threshold of difficulty for me 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: like, makes me feel 

Mike: Yeah. It forces him to pay attention and Oh, they, it makes me feel alive. That's even in, 

Sam: makes me feel 

Mike: okay. 

Sam: and 

engaged and, and I'm like, that's interesting that 

Mike: That's pretty wild. 

Greg: Is 

Sam: you know. 

Greg: interesting.

Sam: I, I don't relate to that at all, but like I, I can see how that could happen, 'cause 

side

I think this is [00:28:00] connected to it and you know, feel free to either I don't, correct. It's. I was wondering, and I was gonna ask Greg this, that obviously we all have difficulties that we've overcome, challenges that we've overcome, whatever. And I guess my question as it relates to your growth process, let's just say, is, is that something that you recognize only in hindsight or like while you're getting through these difficulties, are you recognizing them and maybe asking like, like, why is this happening to me?

Mike: What is this trying to teach me? in other words, are you aware of it or are you in, basically it just in neanderthal mode of like, I gotta get to the other side of this. And it's only on the other side that you reflect on it. And when I was listening to Sam talk about his buddy, I was just kind of like, here's a guy who's kind of like dialed into what works for him and what the universe is trying to tell him at any given time and how he's gonna deal with it so I'm wondering, What's that process been like for you? are you aware of the growth [00:29:00] opportunities while they're happening in the face of difficulty, or is it only once you've cleared the hurdles and you take a moment or two to reflect that you realize that it taught you something and that you grew from it? 

Sam: Hmm. 

Greg: I'm trying to get better at being in that, 20,000 feet up state and saying, this is what's happening now. I'm still not very good at it. Uh, usually I'm still in the lizard brain. 

And then I realized that afterwards, That taught me something. it takes a lot of maturity and growth to be at that, high altitude, level to see, okay, this is what's happening now.

I can use this as a learning experience and get something out of this. I'm still trying to get better at doing that, but I'm also gotten to the point where I can. Appreciate the difficulties that had happened rather than resenting them, because I realized that it took me from point to point to point.

You 

Sam: Yeah. 

Greg: took me to 

Mike: have a 

Greg: a different, different stage.[00:30:00] 

Mike: Totally understanding and appreciating that it's difficult to, you know, objectively remove yourself from the situation while it's happening. In order to recognize those things. Do you have people in your lives? It's a two part question, either one, knowing that it's hard, difficult to do yourself, is there someone that you rely on to point those things out as opportunities and or are you even receptive to it?

'cause a lot of people will be like, you know what, I'm, I'm in the middle of struggling with this, Like, I don't need you to come in here and, try to flip my perspective and tell me that it's really a growth opportunity. Okay. And so just kind of curious like. we're not all left to our own devices to kind of figure some of this stuff out. So I guess my question is, do you lean on and into other people to try to, shrink that time in between when the challenges actually, happening to you and when you can recognize that it is either an opportunity for growth or that it has [00:31:00] already rendered its value. 

Greg: Well, that's why we marry great women. 

Mike: There you go. 

Greg: I'm fortunate 

Mike: Yeah. 

Greg: in that regard.

Mike: the question, is not to get too personal, but it sounds like the answer to that is yes. That is part of your, part of your dynamic. 

Greg: Oh, totally. And I, I met Rebecca and I can imagine she's, she must be terrific at that.

Sam: relationships, jobs, all of these capacities that we have to show up to as growing people, as adult people. we've learned, so much from the difficulties and the onset of these relationships, right?

Sam clone: when you start a first a job, at first it feels impossible. You're drinking from a fire hose, as they say. it's overwhelming. and I've even told myself, in mantra before, when, in those moments of difficulty, in a year, you're gonna be bored. In a year, you're gonna be looking for something to challenge you or entertain you.

Right? Okay. 

Mike: Yeah, it's good. 

Sam: thing with relationships. And one of the things that makes my current marriage feel so good and [00:32:00] so promising to me was that I grew up and I learned that, you know, once you get past that, that getting to know you challenging kind of segment a relationship, then I was able to plug in because there's a level of trust there. where I'm able to plug in now and siphon and use the feedback from that trusted partner to continue to render growth in 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: you 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: that exact way that you just described. and when I witnessed myself, engaging in that with intent, I was so impressed.

I'm like, I can't. I'm doing this. I'm 

doing it. Look at me, go, I'm doing it. You know what I mean? and then that, just has this limitless potential, you know? And so, Yeah. it is man, relationships with others, relationship with other things, other [00:33:00] people, other responsibilities, whatever, um, is a great space to, 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: to find, strategies for personal growth and great things, 

Mike: Yeah. And there are two variables in that, right? One is having the network of people, whether it's a spouse or a partner, a mentor, a sibling, a parent, right? And then there's your ability actually make the most of what they're offering, in that dynamic. 

Sam: tell you how many times I have directly applied perspectives that I've gained and learned from these very podcast sessions, 

Mike: Hmm. 

Sam: the things that have come out of my guests or my partner's mouth in these conversations directly to, uh, moments in my life. and, to me, that's a perfect example of what we're talking about, you know? 

Mike: feel like you've always been open to it and the sources have changed [00:34:00] over the course of your life, or is it something that.

you didn't develop until significantly later? Do you know what I mean? Like in 

Greg: JI 

Sam: What about you, Greg? 

Greg: don't know how people like get married in their twenties 

Mike: Uhhuh, 

Greg: and keep it going. It's, you don't even know yourself yet. 

Sam: yeah. 

Greg: I got married, uh, I was almost 50. 

Sam: Mm-hmm. 

Greg: And my wife a couple of years younger, we knew ourselves at least. And then you can come it much easier to, you know, make a, a team with somebody when they know themselves already.

I don't know how people in their twenties to it, it was a just a, it was a whirlwind in my twenties when you, you haven't even figured yourself out yet. Maybe some people have in their twenties. I sure didn't.

Mike: I, I, I think we're all preaching to the choir here because, I know that I was a late bloomer and I was single until my late thirties. And I often think about, [00:35:00] it's hard to know for sure because you don't know what the alternative was, but I am as sure as I can be about something that, the reason that I'm in successful relationship that I'm in right now is because It didn't start until I was in my late thirties.

Okay. But having said that, I often do and have my mind blown by people. Like, and I'll take this full circle, we don't know her and she's not part of the conversation, but the figure skater that you were referencing earlier, the amount of maturing and growing up that she did between 16 and going off to college experience and coming back at the other end.

She might be as mature at 22 as I was at 41. 

Sam: now. 

Greg: be.

Mike: And I think about, or know herself, I'm, I'm combining maturity with like, knowing yourself a little bit better. And then the other reference that we've leaned into pretty hard on this is like, it blows my mind that people, that, that artists, that songwriters can, create some of their most profound work when they're 19 22, 24, 25.

I'm like, how, 

Greg: Unbelievable.

Mike: do, [00:36:00] or did they even, Did they need to possess all of that self-awareness and maturity in order to make the art? Or is it just a matter of coincidence, you know, that they were able to articulate these things that not only could I not write about, but I probably couldn't even comprehend 

Sam: hmm. 

Mike: until I was 30 or 35. 

Greg: Lemons. Where did that come from? I mean, he was like, miles ahead. 

Mike: I don't know. Do you 

know what 

Greg: he, he got married pretty early, I guess, but, uh, he just light years ahead of where I was when he, I just, it is amazing the way these young people can do this.

Sam: It's so much of that is, the whole nature versus nurture thing. So much of that is nurtured by the pressure test environment of so many variables in your life. You know, Jeff Lemons was,

Mike: It's a really good point.

Sam: let's just say they had a struggling relationship with their father, you know what I 

Mike: Mm-hmm. 

Sam: Um, and I know that Jeff grew up with a sense of limited ability to [00:37:00] express himself, and so he learned to express himself through writing. You know what I 

Mike: Yeah, that's a really good point. I was gonna say, some people are like forced to grow up earlier, than others or whatever. But I think to your point, is that like having a certain set of experiences and yearning for a way to express yourself could quite possibly expedite your ability to do that, you 

Sam: And also 

Sam clone: sometimes just, Growing up in a family that fosters a culture of competitiveness . You know what I mean? And those 

Sam: two brothers were very competitive. And so Jeff was driven just by that alone.

He 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: he wanted to one up his older brother, you know what I 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: day one, you 

know? 

Mike: Yeah. So you've got these accelerators basically, you 

Greg: Yes, 

Mike: Okay. 

Greg: we should say that Jeff is, was, uh, Sammy's songwriter in his youthful band. Uh, just to remind people of who, uh, who we're discussing. 

Sam: Jeff inspired 

Greg: I.

Sam clone: And, 

I would go as far as to say Even though we were contemporaries and brothers, he taught me how to write a [00:38:00] song he taught me. 

Mike: That's how those two assholes called Lennon McCartney probably managed to crank out the body of work that they did before they were 30 years old. I'm just kidding. 

Greg: That's crazy, right?

Mike: do reference that, right?

I mean, like, we hear it as just fodder for like, you know, goofy Paul McCartney stories in hindsight, oh, we were very competitive and blah, blah.

And, but when I'm hearing you say that, it's just like, yeah, take two really talented, competitive people. Stick 'em in a room together and next thing you know, they're gonna attempt to outdo each other at like an incredibly accelerated pace. 

Greg: It's a 

Sam: people are able to create that same paradigm internally. You know, we were, 

we

we were on a, an episode not long ago with an old friend of mine discussing perception as a mirror. And, we were talking about how, in the paradigm of perception, it, it does not negate, objectivity, it certainly, it certainly promotes, an attention to subjectivity. know, and some of that [00:39:00] subjectivity comes from, your internal filters and what you're contributing to your perception. and if you're a, a mature enough person or if you're just a person out of the necessities of the variables of life circumstances that needs to. This young lady, this skater saw limited time, opportunity.

You know what I mean? You age outta that real quick. So I'm sure that 

Greg: Yes.

Sam: was feeling the pressure and it was like, look, she was probably, um, reacting to, or adhering to a lot more of a pressured environment to get her shit together. And as they say shit or get off the pot than most people her age, you know what I mean? 

Greg: and apparently whatever decisions she made, privately deep down inside of herself were the right ones because she, she managed to, really, create quite a triumphant moment for herself. per 

It's a wisdom knowing when you have too many plates spinning and you gotta set one down. 

Sam: Yeah. 

Greg: And I at 16, that's [00:40:00] pretty amazing. 

Sam: feeling the, that pressure to figure that out 

Greg: True. 

Sam: Right. You 

Greg: True. I.

Sam: you know, um. 

Mike: to your point also, like it could make you crack and it didn't make her 

Greg: Yes, 

Mike: so 

Greg: yes. But she, um, reframed the difficulty 

Sam: She 

Greg: in a productive way, 

Sam: So 

Greg: you know?

Mike: one. Nice one, Greg. 

Sam: Let's, let's 

Mike: Eh? 

Sam: see if she manages 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: it to 25 without getting a crack habit or, 

Mike: Right. Stop. Dude, you, you 

Greg: Wow. 

Mike: to go there. I was like, 

Greg: Debbie Downer, man.

Mike: was just like, oh boy. I hope this ages well. But anyway. 

Greg: Oh man. Hey, she's a U-C-L-A girl. She'll be okay. That's where I worked for 30 years. 

Mike: Nice. 

Greg: That's, 

Sam: again?

Greg: uh, educational technology. So I basically, uh, mostly on the hard hardware and getting, uh, sound systems, video systems, computer systems into all of the. 

Mike: Clearly, 

Greg: the teaching spaces, 

Sam: This, 

Greg: but I, uh, this, the software [00:41:00] stuff, I don't get, I was a hardware guy. Just get the speaker up there.

Sam: and a tablet. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Greg: The, the, uh, the, it was like the wiring and the hammers and the nails. That was me. 

Mike: like, can 

Greg: I, I've had it,

Mike: like this, can we do this on a Palm pilot? 

Greg: I wanted to get this as far away from that as possible once I retired.

Mike: Right on, 

Sam: God, Greg. 

Mike: Hey, 

Sam: that. 

Mike: do you wanna, 

Sam: Yeah. We should 

Mike: okay. 

Sam: winding this 

Mike: Yeah. 

Sam: hey, look man, I just want to say Greg, like, you were the perfect guest on this for this episode especially. I'm convinced of 

Greg: not tech wise.

Sam: So I was a 17-year-old kid when I met you. I never really knew you. So everything that I thought I knew of you or knew about you was just mythology.

It was the story I was telling myself, you know what I mean? but you had cool hair and you played, really cool guitar and you were in a band that was making records and it was everything that I wanted to be at that time. So there was a moment [00:42:00] when you were like, Greg Vincent, you know what I mean?

Like, 

Greg: Those are great times that, uh, Jeff always over credited me with, uh, inspiring him to,

Sam: you, man. Absolutely. You know, I mean, and that was again. I think some of that is the lure of just being like the older brother's best friend. You know what I mean? But you were doing all the things that we wanted to, do and so you were, 

Greg: I laid down night at the opera on him, 

Sam: and there's,

Greg: and that's, I'll take credit for that. It blew his mind.

Sam: is, is that it's an honor to have you come full circle around and be a guest on my 

podcast now at 

Mike: yeah. 

Sam: years old. My hero, Greg Vincent, and just, and what a sweet and generous person you are. Thank you so much for making time for this dude. And 

Greg: Congratulations on season two 

Sam: And 

Mike: thank you. 

Sam: a listener. Thanks for taking an 

interest, 

Mike: yeah. 

There you 

Greg: oh yeah, I'm gonna continue and it's so nice to e meet you, Mike.

Mike: likewise. Uh, that, that was gonna be, you know, part of my wrap up and extension of [00:43:00] appreciation is that like it's. Really one of the main benefits of this project and this exercise is to get to meet really interesting people and have great conversations like this. And so, very much appreciate you taking the time and creating the bandwidth to do this with us.

Man, it was awesome.

Greg: It's my pleasure. My pleasure.

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