Embrace Distractions for Better Outcomes

Conventional wisdom often tells us to eliminate distractions if we want to do our best work. But what if that's only part of the story? In this episode of Maxim EQ, Sam and I, along our guest Jorge Castellanos explore the idea that strategic distraction can actually improve creativity, problem-solving, and decision-making. 

Drawing on personal experiences and insights, we discuss why our best ideas sometimes arrive when we're least expecting them, and how embracing the right kinds of distraction can lead to better decisions, fresh perspectives, and more meaningful outcomes. 

The conversation also explores the difference between productive distraction and procrastination, and how learning to embrace both focused effort and intentional mental downtime can lead to better outcomes in work, relationships, and life.

I've always valued Jorge's perspective, and this conversation was no exception. It was also a pleasure introducing him to Sam.. they clicked nicely, and I think that comes across throughout the episode.

Thanks for listening!

Mike and Sam

Transcript

Embrace Distractions for Better Outcomes
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​[00:00:00] 

Speaker 3: There has to be some work done, which reminds me with one last quote, Luis Paster, the guy which basically invented pasteurization and many other things. He said something like Chance favors the prepared mind. And so this thing of chance of luck being just, we're just lucky and it's equal. No, it's not equal.

There's no equality there. If you are prepared, if you work hard, then somehow you will be luckier. 

 This is Maxim EQ a show that pushes back against the memification of meaning. In each episode, we explore a familiar phrase through thoughtful conversation that blends unique perspectives and lived experience. Today we're joined by Jorge Castellanos with a background rooted in music, technology and production.

Jorge has worn many hats from software developer to entrepreneur, including co-founding the award-winning mastering studio Zampol Productions in New York [00:01:00] City. Jorge joins us today from his home in Mexico City to discuss and debate the maxim, "embrace distractions for better outcomes" Given Jorge's analytical and thoughtful nature, Mike and I really enjoyed what he had to bring to the conversation.

And we hope you do as well. Comment, like, and subscribe. Let us know what your thoughts are. 

Now Maxim EQ with Sam Wahl and me, Mike Baumer

Mike: Hey there 

Sam: good morning. How are

Mike: Nice. I'm well, thanks. Look at that cup.

Sam: I

Mike: Whoop, whoop. Limited edition to one.

Sam: That's a custom Maxim EQ coffee cup.

Not available to the [00:02:00] public,

Mike: see, I see.

Sam: but soon.

Mike: Perhaps for our fifth anniversary, we can run a limited edition of the black one.

Sam: Yeah, maybe

Mike: I feel like we should get Jorge on here sooner than later, to talk about our maxim today. What do you think about that?

Sam: I'm into it, man.

Mike: Okay.

Sam: Yeah. Yeah,

Mike: Well, I'm excited for you to meet Jorge. 

Sam: Jorge's, that kind of person that when you meet them, it's pretty obvious that, he could probably do whatever he wanted to do as long as he, set his mind to it, right, that he was gonna be successful no matter what he decided to engage with. 

Mike: So, yeah. and I won't divulge the maxim just yet. Right. Maybe I'll just give Jorge an opportunity to tell us what it is.

Sam: Uh, it's, it's gonna be a good one today. I can't wait to meet this man, that you have, you have spoken so fondly of.

Good morning,

Jorge: Good morning. How are you? Hi, Sam. Not nice to meet you.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: up front, Jorge, I'm a little under the weather. I [00:03:00] got hit by a pretty, hard dose of allergy symptoms, uh, early this week. So

Jorge: Yeah.

Mike: um, if you don't mind, share with us the maxim that you chose as our topic for conversation 

Jorge: Absolutely. Um, it's embrace destractions 

Mike: Embrace distractions for better outcomes. And if my memory serves, You were choosing between two final candidates, but leaned towards this one because, and you use verbiage that I tend to use. that there might be more meat this one. did you have an immediate reaction to it?

Or, or even if it wasn't that immediate, what did you mean by more meat?

Jorge: Yeah, I meant by "more meat" that, uh, I don't necessarily agree fully with this one. And while there might be some value, I think there are many caveats and it seemed to me that it lent itself to, 

to a polemic conversation, to basically disagreeing on [00:04:00] some things. And that makes a more interesting, 

Mike: Love it. 

Jorge: chat with different points of view.

Mike: two parts to it, right? There's the embrace distractions and then there's for better outcomes. and so did you see those two things immediately tie together? Is that what caused some of the reaction? Like in other words, there's the idea of embracing distractions and then there's the idea of embracing distractions 

Jorge: Four better outcomes, correct. I, I think the first thing is coming from a very business oriented world, at least in our western world, um, it is believed that focus is the king, like pretty much the opposite of what this saying says, which is focus, focus, focus. And you're going to get there. If you, we go back and, uh, and analyze those that have done well in life.

We could say Steve Jobs, and they claim that he was great at removing [00:05:00] all of the noise around things and like just focusing on the three things I think they say that he had to accomplish within a day. And as long as he kept focused, like that's what made him so successful. And just like that, now they say about Elon Musk, right?

Like, oh, he removes a hundred percent of all distractions and he just, it's focus, focus, focus. So from that point of view, I think at least I am used to, Giving focus a lot of value. Then when reading this, I'm like, oh wait, hold on. Uh, yeah, of course I understand. Of course, I agree that there is value in distractions, but where and how and under what circumstances?

Mike: I'm, so happy that we're entering this topic from this angle, first of all. Um, and thanks for sharing that. 'cause that's, that's super provocative. Um, my reaction to to that is, in order to totalize this maxim that perspective, from the business [00:06:00] perspective, you know, one has to assume that is a static or standard understanding of, uh, better outcome. Right. So, in order to embrace distractions with the expectation of, of a better outcome, right, in order to achieve a better outcome, that implies that you have, uh, an idea or an intent towards, uh, manifesting a particular outcome that can be defined as better.

Sam: Right? so I'm curious about, about that. I'm curious about like, you know, this entirely subjective or is there some objectivity to what we can consider better outcomes here? You know,

Jorge: Yeah, I think it takes me to a topic that, that I think it's an endless one, which is art, right? Um, how can you quantify the value of a piece of art? Some of them sell for [00:07:00] millions, tens of millions of dollars, yet, uh, you could ask, is it better than the other one?

And some people will say like, yes, you can actually quantify and you can be objective as to some art being better than other. And then some other will say, how can you say it's better? Like you can just, it so happens that it was a famous person and it doesn't matter if it's, uh, actually Banksy, right?

Right now. There was some, uh, note today I think appeared that now they know who he's and his pieces will be significantly more valuable because of now knowing who that person is. And some investors not wanting to spend money on art of somebody. They don't know who that person is. And so, um, is it. Who knows.

So I guess to, to my point of view for, uh, uh, related to what you're asking, I think there can be some way of being somewhat objective of defining within the bounds of a given task [00:08:00] or topic. You could say yes, if you get to the result, if you get to an outcome which leads to what you wanted, then that's better than the other.

Mike: you know, weigh in with two things real quick. One, to support Jorge's initial, share, which was when I literally googled this combination of words, embrace distractions for better outcomes. I didn't get a single hit that wasn't. The opposite. it was all about how to overcome distractions, how to overcome procrastination, what it's telling you about yourself and how to defeat it, right?

how to,

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: to defeat those, that temptation, right? And the irony in that is I'm not a contrarian necessarily, Like I, I understand the value of being focused, especially as it relates to completing tasks. when I first, this was one of the original combinations of words that I wrote down for myself when I started collecting them.

And I said to Sam earlier, I think the first one was empathy is mutually beneficial. And the second one was this And what I meant by that just [00:09:00] simply put, whether it's sleep on it or whatever, right? Was that if I got stuck on something recognizing you've hit a point of diminishing marginal returns on something. And so I realized, I've taken this as far as I can take it for now. And I think that if I just walk away from it, whether that means for a day, for a week or for five seconds to go, watch the birds in the trees or something, that I might gain something from that perspective that could be relevant to finishing the task that I was running into a wall with.

And I love that you took it to the subjectivity of art because it's like, yeah, what the hell is better outcomes? And like you said, we could talk about that for, the subjectivity of, of anything creative.

Sam: Yeah, just to start off on, some understanding together some common footing here. Um, is it fair to say that we, we typically, I say we western society as you, you cited [00:10:00] earlier, uh, is it fair to say that we reward the particular skill set of avoiding distractions and staying the course in general? and, a distraction can can inform you. about your willpower perhaps, or trying to overpower rather than to understand distractions. uh, we're informed by our culture that's a positive skillset to sharpen, right? I mean, we live in a society that, literally, uh, and I mentioned this to Mike earlier, that has decreed, uh, a diagnosis as distraction.

Distraction is a diagnosis of disorder literally. Disorder a, ADHD is considered a,

Jorge: ADHD.

Sam: so, um, know what about that.

Jorge: Yeah. So I think great points. I, I do agree that that was my first reaction, that that's what it has been dictated [00:11:00] by society. And then my first thought that basically promotes or, or gives value to this, uh, maxim is. Wait, from a world in which you have focus as the king, somebody has to rescue the other side.

And that rescue is, you know what? There is value in being distracted. And that value shows over and over again. And I have many examples which I will be happy to talk about throughout my life, in which, yeah, these directions have definitely led to better outcomes. And so while, uh, there is a ton of value in focus and we know it, this is a reminder.

And so I, I think one of the values of this saying, of this maxim is, um, let's not forget about it a little bit, how John Cage back in the day started saying, there is value in silence. I'm going to make a piece which is [00:12:00] just all silence. And you could claim that's not music, that's nothing. Well, it might not be, but it is a reminder that there is value in silence.

Mike: I enjoy talking about this, intellectually or philosophically or whatever. But yeah, you open the door. Why don't you apply a real life, anecdote or situation professionally or personally, um, that you just You would have many of to speak to this maxim.

Sam: Yeah, if it's okay, if it's okay with

Jorge: Oh dear.

Sam: love to make time for that. I'd love to hear some personal.

Mike: because really the breakdown on this I, I don't know if I've shared with you kind of like if there were a format for these conversations, It's having an initial reaction to a combination of words that could, be abstract enough to like kind of have a knee jerk reaction to 

But then you think about it for a few more minutes to unpack it, and then really it's about then yourself what application it has in your life, either past, current, or something that you're working [00:13:00] on. So I think it's totally on point to now tie in, what we've been talking about for a few minutes into some actual examples from your life, 

Jorge: Absolutely. So I feel we can go from the typical one, which I think most of us have, which is, as I think you, Mike said, sleep on. It was the, the,

Mike: Yeah.

Jorge: the way you phrase things, which we often use when we need to make a big decision or we like. You're going to go buy a house and you're like, okay, let me sleep on it.

Let me see. Once I let my mind lose and forget about this main point, is there something that's going to come up that I did not think about it because I was spinning and spinning in the same circle in this virtual cage in which we get into. and so I think of those, there are plenty of examples which we can talk about, but earlier on in, uh, my background has been fairly [00:14:00] eclectic, having studied music for undergrad.

And I remember many times where I would be stuck with some composition or orchestration or something and it, and like throughout, like past, in the early hours of the morning, still trying to compose. And then I would just say like, screw it. I'm going to go forget about it. An hour later I would just wake up after having slept an hour and like would sit down and everything would just magically happen.

Uh, just like that. Similarly, I moved into software development, into engineering, and in the same way you get stuck with code. You cannot solve something. You go rounds and rounds and rounds and having to solve something. Then you take a break and it magically kind of, your brain just comes up with the solution.

Um, I think those are the. Typical examples I could dive into an expanded view of this maxim, which is not necessarily [00:15:00] a short term distraction. One in which there's temporarily the matter of within a day, but rather a long term. And I could say I'm a very distracted person, as I was just saying, I started in music, with music, then I went into engineering, then into business, then finance and whatever.

I've been all over the place. And then the question is, could we apply this into a distraction over the long term of one's life in which there is value in, being a generalist versus being a specialist.

Mike: yet, but then the question is just to get meta on it, it's like you're referring to each one of these things as kind of distractions along your path of life, right? And I have a pretty good feeling that, when the book is almost written, you will have had a more fulfilled and interesting life than if you hadn't, I think you called them distractions.

I'm not sure that I would call each chapter each interest that you engaged with, a distraction necessarily. But, if your life in [00:16:00] totality is the better outcome, then I would say that you ended up having a more fulfilled and richer and complete set of experiences over your life than someone who might have just stayed focused and on, on the same road the whole time, 

Sam: I do, I do find it interesting on that topic that in a, in a society where, where we institutionally have classically punished distraction, um, we at the same time seem to quickly be evolving, into a culture, a shared culture that idealizes or, or almost rewards this kind of, this multi vocationalism, this, uh, indulgence in multiple vocations or, the, um, Jack of many trades, master of none lifestyles, very popular, you know? Uh, yeah.

Jorge: Yeah, I, I, I think you're right. But it might be popular in a ideal way. I think everybody says like, oh, that's amazing. I would love that. But at the end of the day, I [00:17:00] think at least companies, or at least businesses end up preferring specialists. I think, even though there is that dream of wanting, and investing in this multifaceted, 

Mike: Interesting. 

Jorge: of individuals.

and to, to Mike's point of, uh, having. At the end of the road, having had a better, um, outcome within one's life. If, we call these, uh, changes in life, uh, distractions, as you say, we can argue that, um, that reminds me of a, I don't remember what book, but it was Voltaire in which he, uh, it's not exactly the same, but it's very related in which he writes about this person, who's an intellectual and reads a lot and knows a lot.

And then across the street there's this, uh, person who grew up without much education and it's, uh, I'm going to use a word that perhaps is, [00:18:00] uh, insulting, but just to be short, uh, ignorant. and at some point they ask, why do you do all of this with your life? Like, why are you spending so much time?

Are you any better than that other one? That other one has a happy life? Like it, she's, uh, in a great place in life and the person responds. I don't know how she's doing, but I know that I am happier with what I'm doing than if I did not do it. So at least it worked for that person, for him to have been doing that.

And that was actually an answer I gave to my daughter, um, a couple of weeks ago when she asked, um, she's like, why dad? Why do you push me all the time to be like active and doing things and doing things and doing things? I'm like, look, I don't know if it's any better. I don't know if it's better for you to just do nothing with life and to procrastinate all day and to be like staring at nothing or not.

But I can tell you that at least the way as human beings the way our mind, I believe works is [00:19:00] that those that end up. Doing things, it doesn't matter what, I'm not defining success in here or better outcomes, they end up being happier with themselves. And thus, I believe that is definitely a recipe for a better outcome, for a better life, uh, in which at least you are happy with what you did and how you did it.

Is it better? Are you better than the others? I'm not saying that. I dunno.

Mike: like you said, it's not comparatively better, it's better for you. Like what are you compatible with? You know, and what are you self-aware enough to recognize as what your preference is? 

Sam: Hmm.

Mike: mean, I think it takes some level of

Jorge: Yep. Yep.

Mike: and honesty with yourself to acknowledge what that preference might be. 

And since you. I am, I am practically illiterate. Uh, I know who Voltaire is, but I haven't read a single, single word, you know? That's true. Except for music. And so, the classic John Lennon line in Beautiful Boy is Life is when happens when you're busy making other plans.

Sam: Mm-hmm.[00:20:00] 

Mike: So, um,

Jorge: Yeah.

Mike: it's kind of cliche, but, but it's relevant to what we're talking about. 



Jorge: talking about literacy and what you just said of John Lennon reminds me of a book called Pigmalion, I believe My Fair Lady. The movie was based on that, on that book by Bernard Shaw. And, there's a saying very close to what you said, Mike, but in a way it, it's says, uh, something like what is life?

But [00:21:00] a, uh, series of inspired follies, which it's, it's kind of like, it, it kind of doubles down on this distraction thing. Now the, the interesting word there is inspired, because you could say if it's just, uh, that life is a series of, of follies, of like. Ceiling is going around, then it could, we could just say, let's just get distracted all along.

And it's just, doesn't matter. Let's not focus, but the inspired part, I think it must be rescued. And going back to the focus, we're going in a circle now into the value of focus. Uh, there has to be inspiration. There has to be, and by inspiration, I think I, I would say there has to be some discipline.

There has to be some work done. Which reminds me with to one last quote, sorry, with all these quotes, but, Luis Pasteur the guy which basically invented pasteurization and many other things. Um, I think he, he said something like, uh, chance [00:22:00] favors the prepared mind. And so this thing of chance, of luck being just, we're just luck.

And it's equal. No, it's not equal. There's no equality there. If you are prepared, if you work hard, then somehow you will be luckier and.

Mike: guy says, uh, you know, it's funny, the more I practice the luckier I get.

Jorge: Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's that same thing. And so, so I think it ties back into distractions and focus and discipline and where there is, where all of those play into each other.

Sam: A hundred percent. I wanted to, um, circle back to the conversation you were describing with your daughter. not necessarily because I remember distinctly what you shared about that conversation, but because it made me reflect on my daughter and my relationship with her and, um. you know, the concept of, of better outcomes.

Obviously we are agreeing that is a subjective, you know, uh, that is a subjective target. [00:23:00] And, I think that there are different types of distractions. I think that there are distractions that can be harmful, and I think that there are distractions that can be helpful. You know, and we are existing in a level of agency at all times and, and mindfulness or however you want to say that, uh, in order to discern, uh, in flow all the time, but you mentioned a scenario of meta earlier, Mike, and I was thinking like, well, to become distracted and young people often do this, so I've had this conversation with my daughter, I know.

But to become distracted in a mode of comparison. Comparison being the theft of joy. Uh, that is kind of meta here, isn't it? Like the idea of, of succumbing to the distraction of comparing oneself to others, which so many of us do so frequently. and that not leading us on,

on a path to a better outcome,

Mike: Yeah, so, so discerning between constructive [00:24:00] or healthy distractions. And unhealthy distractions. Is that fair?

Sam: a hundred percent

Mike: Okay.

Sam: but, also understanding and, can we agree that in order to arrive on those distractions, that scream for your discernment. must be available to

Mike: You have to be open to them. Yeah. 

Sam: to begin with. You know what I mean? The input, the, the up and down we were measuring our up and down speeds on, on, the, uh,

Mike: Upload. Yeah.

Sam: You know, it's like, you know, there's a reason why they're both important. You know what I mean? Like,

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: know.

Jorge: Yeah.

Sam: Hey, I want to ask, I

Jorge: Yeah.

Sam: you,

Jorge: That.

Sam: you respond to what I just said, I do want to steer one more time, if I may, please. Um, Mike had mentioned to me that you, uh, more recently or for some time now, I guess, have been running marathons. And I'm fascinated by that, especially with regard to this maxim or this mindset. And I wanted to ask you, um, so in training, uh, with the [00:25:00] objective of becoming better at running marathons, I'm sure that, you know, my understanding is that when you train and you're running marathons, it's, it's less competitive with other people and more a matter of improving your own time or your own skill, right?

Your own game. And, I'm wondering if you know how that works in your mindset when you are running or training or, uh, in a marathon scenario. I'm gonna guess, I don't know 'cause I don't run marathons, but I'm gonna guess that there's moments where you are constantly measuring and, uh, managing, some healthy distractions so that you're not, in the moment of suffering at all times throughout the experience.

Mike: Ooh. Yeah.

Sam: Uh, but at the same time, you don't want to totally lose focus. Right. So tell me about that.

Mike: Yeah. Is that a balance of focus and distraction to get through it?

Jorge: Oh dear, you two just opened the door that I don't know if you wanted to open. so many topics here. So, so [00:26:00] marathon training first, I don't think we idol dollarize marathons as being like, oh wow, you're training for a marathon. I think there's no difference whether it's a marathon or a 5K. the intensity of what you do and how you run is what makes a difference.

I think I can run tomorrow, marathon. With no problem. And it's very different than the marathon. I might run later racing it. And if I run it tomorrow here in the streets, I will finish the marathon, just go for a huge breakfast, huge meal, and that's it. And the next day I'm ready for to run again. If I run a marathon, if I race it, I might be destroyed and not be able to do much for a couple of months.

And so that did not go into the topic, uh, into what you asked, but just as we are embracing distractions, I'm kind of, uh, going slightly into the, into the topic of marathons because it might bring some better outcomes. for me, [00:27:00] running has been um, this is almost religious for me, so it has become 

A way. I don't go to any therapist, I don't do anything like that, but I believe running has taken the place of that. It is my time out of, uh, the, the time in the day in which I don't get distracted with anything else. I mute all conversations. I don't run with a phone. Nobody can bother me. Like my daughter could get injured.

I wouldn't know. I disappear for a couple of hours every day and then I come back and, uh, I get fully disconnected from the world. so I don't know if we could see that as a distraction or a time of focus.

Sam: Can, I would love for you, please, if you would, to describe with a little more detail, what does occur in your consciousness when you're running.

Mike: You just said you don't think of you totally disconnected, you don't think about anything while you're running, but [00:28:00] can't entirely be true because you're not running in a bubble somewhere like you're out in the world doing it. And so how do you manage that process?

Jorge: Correct. so it's not that I don't think about any, anything. I, although I am fairly zoned out, there are people that pass next to me and they start like, Jorge, Jorge, and I'm like, oh, wow, I didn't see you. Like, I'm not even paying attention as to who's around me or what's going on. I am inside my head.

I don't run with headphones, no music that distracts me. I, I cannot be running. My head just needs the peace and the calm and I think. Uh, so I'm thinking about several things. A, a common topic where, where my brain goes into, it's definitely, about running itself. So what I'm doing, if I'm doing repetitions like intervals, or if I'm doing speed or whatever, I'm constantly calculating paces and how well I'm [00:29:00] feeling and how hydrated I am and how much I ate or I didn't, and how my body is responding to all those things.

and then the part that I think acts as therapy, which it's not on purpose, it just happens to be, that's where I think about what I'm doing that day, what happened the previous day, whether I was too mean to my daughter, uh, all those things. And, and I think I generally come back, With a different attitude towards things.

I remember, and, and this is an interesting topic, going back into the topic of today's conversation, um, some 20 years ago when I started dating my wife, um, as every relationship we would fight now and then, and many times when things would get a bit more heated, I'm like, okay, it's time to go run.

And so I would put my shoes on and just leave a fight, like a discussion in the middle of discussion. Say, [00:30:00] sorry, I need to go take some steam off. And I would just go run and run for as long as I could until my body said, you know what? Nothing matters in this life. It doesn't really matter. We're nothing.

We're just, I'm this tired person. Whatever I was talking about, it's irrelevant. And so I guess in that way, we could say it was a distraction.

Mike: 

Sam: you saying is though, and, and so I want, I want to paraphrase just so you can kind of correct me if I'm off base, but what I hear you saying is that, um, for you, the practice and the discipline of running helps put your body and your mind in a space, um, where you're able to travel outside of the burdens of everyday distractions, everyday kind of linear thoughts and processes, right? and in that space you're able to give. More space and more time to some of the more intimate, uh, details of your thought processes, your relationships, or things that you feel like need some of your undivided [00:31:00] attention, that, that are easily taken away from by distractions of everyday life, vocational, um, societal, whatever.

So you're using that space as a place of, of intimacy with your kind of mindfulness focus and, and focusing on some of the internal conversations about things that are important to you, like your daughter and things of that nature. does that sound correct?

Jorge: That's, that's an amazing summary. I'm, I, I, please send it to me afterwards. I'm going to

Mike: but,

Jorge: write it down. I love it. Yes.

Mike: what I heard when you were talking about what you're focusing on while you're running is the self-monitoring. Almost like you're monitoring your own instrument panel and your own gauges. Like you're a one man Formula one team.

Sam: Yeah.

Mike: know what I mean? 

Sam: Yeah, for real. You know, I, I actually, you know what, Mike, an underappreciated, uh, kind of mechanical part of in an extreme athletic state like that, I, I didn't even think about that. Like the fact that like, it does take a certain amount of bandwidth, right? Just to [00:32:00] be paying attention to the variables of my body and my breathing and my hydration and

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: levels and all that stuff, right?

Yeah. I

Mike: I'm thinking about an F1,

Jorge: Absolutely.

Mike: and there's, you know, nine guys responsible for doing that monitoring, like 15 different

Jorge: Yeah,

Mike: uh, computers, you know, not just the driver. So you are the driver and, and the team all in one,

Jorge: absolutely. Yeah. Monitoring like w with these days, with the wearables, I have access to not only heart rate, like cadence, like there are so many things that I'm constantly calculating on where I am, what pace I'm going at based on that pace, where my heart is, where my cadence is, how, like all of those things and basically adapting the things I do and the way I train based on that feedback.

Sam: And, and so what I'm hearing is, and can we all agree that this is in a, in a way, this is a self-imposed set of variables of distraction. As an [00:33:00] escape. As an escape measure from the rest of life. I mean these are self-imposed distractions. This is, you are, you are constructing a paradigm of distraction for yourself to escape the mundaneness of everyday life.

Jorge: that, that's a and super interesting way of putting it. Interestingly enough, I see running as what requires most discipline in my life, and I'm going to put discipline as counter to distraction even though it's not necessarily true. I do make a huge effort to not miss a single day of running or off train.

Like the way I train myself is, my program is not one of those in which I say on Monday, I'm going to do this on Tuesday, that I don't have a schedule in which it has specifically what I'm going to do. I wrote a set of rules, and those rules, there are a list of things that where I am allowed to or not based on different things.

For example, I say I'm going to run as often as possible. That's rule [00:34:00] number one. Meaning every day I need to wake up and put my shoes on. If I run six days in a row, then I have to take a break one day. So that's a counter to the first rule, but it kind of starts bounding, setting boundaries to things.

another rule is I have to do at least 15 minutes of yoga or stretching before every run. I cannot go run. It doesn't matter if I have a meeting later and I need to be back within a given hour. If I don't have the time to do my yoga for at least 15 minutes, I cannot go run. And so, with those rules, I'm extremely disciplined and I pretty much wake up way earlier than I would ever thought.

I, I would be okay. Waking up at, and then I do my stretches. I go run and then I come back. I make breakfast for my daughter and I take her to school. 

Sam: 

Jorge: so I don't know. I, I see your point. It is a distraction from one point of view. It is the anti distraction from the other point of view, but yes.

Sam: is a [00:35:00] paradigm that has become, uh it has become. The path to, a modality of better outcomes for you? I mean, to say it in a generic way. Um, I have a

Jorge: A hundred percent.

Sam: talking about this in a, in another episode just recently. I have a good friend who, when, when approached about, he's a avid marijuana smoker, and when, when approached about, uh, whether or not he's addicted to smoking marijuana, he said, you know, I'm not, first of all, you, you can't become physically addicted to THC.

So that's not a thing. But, you know, he said, I'll tell you what I am addicted to. He said, I'm addicted to the state of broadened, um, variables and difficulties and challenges that's presented by being, you know, uh, incredibly high, you know, which I thought that's really

Mike: So is he saying that life is too easy and that he wants to actually like introduce this variable to challenge himself? Okay.

Sam: yes.

Mike: Sweet.

Sam: his way to escape the mundaneness [00:36:00] of,

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Sam: starts to feel it mundane. And so his self prognosis is this, that, that he's bored. know, or to a certain level, he starts to turn off when in, in the mundaneness of

life. And so he gets himself really high every day, uh, in order to, to re excite or heighten the challenge level of the mundane, the mundane activities like, you know, going to work and managing his business and 

being in relationship with his wife or whatever. And I thought, that's really interesting 

And so I said, Would you consider yourself to be emotionally or, or mentally addicted to that level of input then? And he's like, a hundred percent, you know? but I've heard this about runners too. Like I know that runners consider themselves to be addicts. you get addicted to

Mike: Well, yeah.

Sam: chemical result of,

Jorge: There is, there is dopamine being released and so ultimately we could just be coke addicts. It's the same thing.

Sam: Right,

Mike: [00:37:00] I I'm not qualified to recognize, OCD. Right. But I feel like I can amateurly recognize it in my own behavior sometimes. when you were just talking about the routine that you have to apply and the discipline and the commitment that you have to that routine as it relates to running and training, do you feel like, somebody who's got compulsive tendencies is going to be more compatible with approaching things that way?

Like, in other words, I'm trying to ask you, Jorge, do you feel like you're a little OCD? and does that help, you know, in a case like this?

Or maybe you're not,

Jorge: s so, yes. And I think, um, we're going to circle back all the way to the beginning, uh, now that we've been talking about all of this, this topic about embracing distractions, I wonder if this maxim is more applicable. To [00:38:00] those of us that are a bit OCD in that we get into our head, we start going rounds and rounds and rounds and rounds, and we don't get out of this one single thing and we do need 

Mike: Mm-hmm.

Jorge: little door.

And that door is basically forget about what you're talking about, what you're thinking about, and do something else. And then going to your head is going to bring it back somehow.

Mike: that was in there, like when right? You know? 

Sam: which

Jorge: Yeah.

Sam: spectrum. And I think that we are all, we all arrive on that spectrum, you know, in one way or another. For sure. Um, I would like to, to discuss even if, just briefly, a topic that's kind of poignant, I think politically globally right now, but especially in North America. Um, sometimes distraction is, is strategic. Sometimes it's just, you know, natural chaos of competing events, um, media dynamics, whatever. Uh, and, and coincidences, I think. But sometimes things are engineered specifically, [00:39:00] um, to induce paranoia, which can become a distraction, you know what I mean?

And, and in that distraction, in that distracted state, uh, clandestine things can happen under the table or when we're not paying attention because we're busy being distracted by our paranoia. Um, any thoughts about that? 

Jorge: Such a big topic. Uh,

Sam: Like weaponize,

Jorge: wow.

Sam: distraction, right.

Jorge: yeah, I, uh, absolutely. And so from one point of view, it is definitely something that comes up often within politics. How much something that's done is just a distraction in order to cover or to basically to distract, to get us to not look at what's happening on one side.

To look at the other side.

Sam: this. Remember, remember. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Jorge: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The boxing with the Exactly. And that is pretty much what we parents do with our kids, [00:40:00] right. When we perform magic, I mean, magical tricks, that's what they are, right? it's how do you distract one, 

like the person, seeing the magic trick from whatever is the main thing you're doing.

Um, now those distractions, do they lead to better outcomes? I, that, that, that's a nice side of, of this, uh, phrase that I had not thought about. whether those distractions are good, whether we should embrace them or is it unrelated? Ooh, I dunno. Mike, what do you think?

Mike: For my own wellbeing in this particular context. That's when I choose to focus on something else. And again, it's not going all the way back to your example. I don't remember if this was the Voltaire thing or not, where, somebody who's, who's constantly engaged with something, looks at somebody across the street, it's all ignorance is bliss, right? look, I struggle with this every day, you know, finding the balance between, I feel an [00:41:00] obligation to myself to be well-informed and to know what's going on around me. On the other hand, I have to remember that I can't necessarily affect and influence those things, you know, beyond my own little world and personal decisions and stuff, right?

So I literally struggle with this every single day. I want to get pulled in one, one direction, which is to be concerned by, the bigger global, more macro distractions. But on the other hand, I don't, I don't love the whole operating as ignorance is bliss. And so for me, the constructive way out of that is to try not always successfully, to try to focus on the things that I can control and focus on the things that I can be a positive influence on. Whether that's my family, my friend network, or whether that's my community. And, you know, I can talk a big game about in those things when the [00:42:00] reality is, you know, there's plenty more that I could be doing. And so I think that when I get distracted by those bigger issues that I also find to be very important, it does refocus me on just being more constructive. And supportive and useful in my own little world. So that's how I split the difference between ignorance is bliss and not being overwhelmed by all of the enormous things that I can't necessarily influence the outcome of.

Jorge: That makes sense. It it, I I dunno if you noticed, you used focus probably five or six times, so you did make a big emphasis on focus being the key of what you do, and yet you ended up suggesting that the distraction of those things, that even if they, if it's an engineered distraction, uh, that it does.

Help you in some ways. You said it helped, the distraction [00:43:00] helps you focus on something which, which it brings back that, uh, the better outcome is that focusing even though it was a distraction. 

Mike: of being healthier and more constructive rather than just dwelling in and being overwhelmed by. What might be a series of distractions. Does that make sense?

Jorge: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm going to, to slightly jump off the, the topic 

Mike: Please? 

Jorge: were just talking, Mike, and going back to the last, to what Sam just said in that, uh, is there value in rescuing distractions in this case? Not as those in which we engage or we should embrace, but rather, as a tool for us to help others get better outcomes.

So basically engineer distractions. As a way for better outcomes for a team or for a family, or for a group of people in which those are [00:44:00] engineered. I, I jumped a little bit off politics, Sam, because I think that topic is a dangerous one, but, um, but it's, in the end, it's the same thing that you said, right?

And I, I don't know.

Sam: I appreciate you doing that. Um, and I, I wanna just say, um. I think this is an extrapolation of what you were just saying. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but we find ourselves, we find our kind of, uh, set of principles and values in this maxim, in, in the context of how we would advise or how we are advising, um, in a nurturing way.

The people that we love, right? Like our children, our daughters, we all three, all three of us men on this panel here have young women, uh, whose lives and wellness we foster and we provide nurturing for. And I think that, we would advise our daughters. To increase their awareness, to bring [00:45:00] intention to their objectives, to avoid comparison, to avoid obsession, to, you know, all of these measurements of, of balance.

You know what I mean? and I think that, and all we need to do as a reflection of who we are and what our real values are, is look at how we nurture and advise those that we love and care for. Right. And with regard to these, quandaries, 

Mike: Totally.

Jorge: Yeah. That's beautiful. And, and I, you said a word that I think it just like hit me like straight into this topic, and that's obsession you said, and how we would, uh, like them or us to. Somehow manage that and I don't know how to compare, where to start by putting obsession in the line of focus, obsession, and distraction, where obsession is definitely not seen in our society, at least as a positive thing while focus it is.

[00:46:00] And so is distraction the counter of obsession to get to focus? 

Mike: Mm. 

Sam: sometimes I think it is. I think that if you're tooling distraction in and you're bringing intention and agency to your relationship with distraction, then yes. Right?

Mike: Yeah.

Jorge: Yeah.

Mike: And to Sam's point about agency is that having some control over what you're being distracted by

Jorge: So just coming back to the beginning as you're doing there is, uh, this common saying, I think, I dunno where it comes from, but I think it's within a business context. They say breaks create insights and distractions destroy progress or something like that.

It goes in which, uh, there's a difference between a break and a distraction or basically a control distraction 

Mike: yes. Yeah, 

Jorge: unbounded distraction.

Sam: intent.

Jorge: The [00:47:00] difference is the intent. Correct. That makes sense. which brings me to a different version of distraction and different version of all of this, uh, this maxim in which, uh, I was thinking about a business meeting, right. I tend to favor, I make a big push always with like, not only with clients, but with friends, with everybody to meet in person, like.

Zoom calls tend to be okay. Every time I can. I'm like, let's go for a coffee. And I've always said that the coffee is better because you get to talk about things that you would not talk over a video call. I'm not going to start a meeting with some client and say like, um, how are your kids? I mean, you can, but it sounds so fake and like, what did you do yesterday?

And all of that. But as soon as you sit down for a coffee, even though it's a business meeting and you don't have the need to just go straight to the topic because you have your next meeting, it opens the doors for distractions. And those distractions, I [00:48:00] believe, almost always lead to better outcomes.

Mike: you know? 

Sam: Well, I, I, I

Jorge: Yeah.

Sam: you're, what you're citing here though, Jorge, is, also a measurably like scientifically supported fact in that when you are sharing physical space with another human, that the. Alchemy of that space changes and that there is charged energy and, you know, literally telepathic things happening back and forth between two people, either 50,000 miles away from each other or in close proximity.

And the alchemy is gonna be different in either one of those scenarios, but I, I, that resonates whatever the

Mike: Totally.

Sam: total cause is or whatever the, you know, whatever. totally resonates with me. I also always encourage in-person, meetings, uh, when I'm, especially when I'm trying to develop a new, client relationship [00:49:00] because I do value authenticity in my relationships with other people.

It's one of the few things that brings joy into a transactional relationship for me. Uh, so I would always, lean towards, uh, bringing, uh, a more of an authentic and

Mike: Yeah.

Sam: to the

Mike: Yeah. And I, I think Jorge's point too is that like virtually it can feel manufactured and contrived and in person it's unarguably more organic,

Sam: Yeah,

Mike: you 

Sam: I agree.

Jorge: Yeah, which, which brings me to ask you two, when are you going to start using this venue in order for you two to travel to whatever place? I mean, you could be in Mexico City right now, next to me, and we're enjoying some. Good chat around the table and then we go hang out and it's going to, it would be an amazing, an amazing experience.

And so each of your episodes, it's in a different place.

Sam: Are you, are you offer, are you offering your home as a destination for us to visit Mexico City?[00:50:00] 

Mike: Oh yeah.

Jorge: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sam: I just want to say, dude, I know that Mike's gonna wrap up here, but I just want to thank you for, for being brave, uh, and coming on here and in doing this with us, uh, not knowing me and, uh, maybe having limited exposure to what we're doing. But man, your generosity is felt, uh, across this, this vast nation of ours.

And I've just, I'm so grateful for you and what you brought to this man. Thanks so much for that.

Jorge: on the contrary, thank you both of you for thinking of me, for inviting me, for having this chat. I think it's, whether it's recorded or not, it's always, uh, welcome to explore a topic, uh, a little deeper than we usually give the time to. And so it's fulfilling and it's super helpful. So thanks. Thank you both.

Mike: of, of why we're even doing this, right? And so, like you said, whether it's

Jorge: There you go.

Sam: so thank you for the time and for agreeing to do this with us. And I, I gotta say that Jorge, I shared with Sam before that scarily, you know, [00:51:00] maybe not continuously, but we've known each other for. Somewhere around 25 years, and Sam and I have

Jorge: Yeah.

Mike: other for roughly 30 years, and you guys have known each other for roughly 90 minutes. And so it was kind of cool to sit back every once in a while and watch you guys connect 

um, it was, it was really gratifying to see it go down this way.

So thank you. glad it worked out.

Jorge: Amazing. Thank you. Hopefully Sam, we will meet in person at some point.

Sam: that's going to happen. 



Speaker 12: Thanks for spending part of your day with us. If this conversation resonated with you, please consider sharing it with a friend who might appreciate it. That's how the show grows, one meaningful connection at a time. And remember, you can always email us at info@maximeqpodcast.com, whether it's to suggest a topic, offer feedback, or just to say hello.

Until next time, take care and make it a great [00:52:00] day.

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