Kate Mason (00:01):

Before we get started today, let me ask you a few questions. Have you ever felt like you're doing everything that is considered right as a parent and still questioning yourself? Do you feel guilty if you're not putting your child first in every moment? Have you noticed how much we talk about children's anxiety and how to reduce it, but rarely our own as parents? And what if? Instead of trying to change our children, we started by looking at our own reactions and anxiety and how we show up in those moments. And then what if just for a moment doing less could actually help your child grow more? Hi, I'm Kate Mason and welcome to Parenting and Personalities. This is the podcast that connects you to the ones that you care about the most.

(01:01):

And today we're talking about something that I think so many parents quietly feel, but don't always say out loud. It's a sense of pressure of trying to get it right and then still wondering if we are. Because with all the advice and all the expectations and the focus on our children, even our adult children, it can feel like we should be doing more. When in reality, we might actually already be doing too much. And joining me today as someone who brings such clarity and calm to this space is Dr. Jenny Brown. Jenny supports clinicians, schools, and mental health services to help parents lead their families with calm, clarity, and courage, especially when things feel anxious or hard. She's a family therapist, researcher, author, and speak with more than 40 years of experience in child and adolescent mental health. Her work is grounded in Bowen family systems theories and centers on a powerful idea.

(01:59):

When parents grow in steadiness and self-leadership, children build resilience. She's the author of Growing Yourself Up and her latest book, The Parenting Paradox: Loving Our Children to Give Them Space to Grow, which helps parents step out of anxious, overinvolve patterns, and move towards calm and confident leadership. Through her work, including the Parent Hope Project, Jenny supports both parents and professionals to reduce anxiety, shift reactive patterns, and strengthen how adults show up in relationships to improve children's wellbeing.

(02:42):

I'm going to be looking at, so I hopefully will keep eye contact most of the time. Okay. Here we go. Jenny, welcome to Parenting and Personalities podcast.

Dr Jenny Brown (02:52):

Nice to be here with you, Kate.

Kate Mason (02:54):

It's great to see you. Listen, I loved your book. Honestly, I could probably do about a hundred podcasts about everything that you talk about in your book. There is so much information, but what I'd love to do is just rewind for a minute because I want to know, was this always the direction that you actually imagined yourself heading when you were younger? How long have you been working in this field and what first drew you to this work? Sorry, a whole heap of questions.

Dr Jenny Brown (03:20):

A big lot of questions. I need an elevator pitch. How many floors are we going up here, Kay? As

Kate Mason (03:26):

Many as you can take us.

Dr Jenny Brown (03:29):

Look, as a high schooler, I imagined I would become a teacher. My mother had been a teacher. I didn't explore much else, but then I got results that everyone said, "You must do something more than that. " And so I enrolled in arts law, so I started studying law and realized this was not for me. How could I escape? So I shifted across to a double degree in arts and social studies. And social studies, it was my sweet spot. Looking at humans in their social context has right from those early days been what's excited me. So I've had a career in social work and social research. Social science is my PhD. So in many ways, while I did take a little detour in the early stages, this has been a long-term commitment for me. Family therapy, family systems, the human being in their relationships and in their social environment is what I think is so fascinating and so helpful to understand for ourselves.

Kate Mason (04:50):

Oh, it's so important to understand for ourselves. And I hate to say this, but as you grow older, you realize once you get more knowledge, you realize the importance of it all. I'm sitting here looking at my adult children and new babies and all the rest of it and reading your book and thinking, "Oh, there's so much I could tell you about, but there's only so much that people listen to as well."

Dr Jenny Brown (05:16):

Yeah. And when I've been doing parent talks over the years, applying family systems thinking, I do have parents say, "Oh, I wish I knew this 10 years ago," or grandparents saying, "This would've been so helpful, but it's never too late to apply these small, simple adjustments to make a real difference in our relationships."

Kate Mason (05:42):

I agree with you. I think we have to work on our relationships all the times. It's such a dynamic that moves every single day, basically, doesn't it? No day is the same as the other. No day is Groundhog Day. Everything does change. So why did you write ... You've written a book before, but why did you write the Parenting Paradox, Loving Our Children by Giving Them Space to Grow? What was it that really spurred you on to write that? And who did you have in mind when you were writing it?

Dr Jenny Brown (06:13):

Well, it's a book I've been writing in my head for such a long time. And I think in particular, when I did later career doctoral research, I really knew what I wanted to research as a PhD in social science. And it was interviewing parents who had a young person in a mental health treatment center. And I learned so much getting into the shoes of parents, adding that to all of my clinical experience in the decades before. And parents that I would interview would say to me, "I don't get why my child is struggling. We've thrown so much love at her or him." And these are conscientious parents who've given it their all. And as soon as I heard those questions, I thought, "I need to put out a book that is accessible to parents and also helpful for those who are working to support parents, particularly in children's and adolescent's mental health." So I wanted a book that was for parents who are conscientious as most parents are trying to do their best.

(07:36):

Many of them really puzzled when their children are not thriving or even having really significant symptoms, and that's what's motivated me to write the book. A lot of my work is training professionals to really work side by side with parents to make a difference to their children's recovery from mental health difficulties. Parents can make such a difference, not because they're to blame, but because they're so influential. And with a few little tweaks to help with awareness of what they can adjust, it can make such a difference to children recovering their capacities.

Kate Mason (08:21):

So you've been in this game for a long, long time. So have you noticed that there is a far greater amount of angst society amongst parents and amongst children currently? When did it all start getting like this? No. I mean, I'm aware that I was a parent 33 years ago and I think I was at the beginning of the helicopter. I think I had a couple of blades out, but I wasn't a lawnmower. So I kind of really understand that things have changed over a long period of time. So yeah.

Dr Jenny Brown (08:55):

Yeah. It's complex, Kate. And this is why in my book I start off with a part saying, how do we make sense of how parenting became so intense in its different versions, not just helicopter or lawnmower or snowplow or all the other terminology out there. And I think it's really useful to understand so we know how to get out of it. And it's complex. There's not one cause of it for sure. But what I want to put out there, I mean, Jonathan Heitz put out there the impact of the digital age. That's a huge factor from the last decade or so. But I think what isn't talked about enough is the impact of overwhelming advice to parents that with the internet has just become just too much to sift through. And what I think has happened is there's been an overfocus on preventing mental health problems, which has added to parents' anxiety and over monitoring kids.

(10:08):

I don't think my profession has helped at all. And I see this in conferences I attend. There are more and more programs for educators and for mental health practitioners and for parents to look for the early warning signs that your child might have this diagnosis. And the more that we look for things that we're concerned about, guess what happens?

Kate Mason (10:34):

We find them.

Dr Jenny Brown (10:35):

We find the evidence and we create a reactivity with our children because they can tell we're worried about them and we're checking up on them and we're watching them and one of our children will spike our concern more than the others and we start putting more and more effort into preventing problems all coming from a good place and all following the advice out there. But we end up going too far and overdoing the trying to fix and intervene and help our children. And when we overhelp, then a child's capacity to learn their own way through life at any age, from toddlers all the way through to the young adults who aren't leaving home. At any age when we overhelp, they underfunction is a term. It's a jargon term from the theory that I work from, but it just means that kids are reacting to being worried about.

(11:48):

And when they react, they don't draw on their inner capacities to learn how to cope.

Kate Mason (11:55):

Put beautifully. I agree totally with

Dr Jenny Brown (11:58):

Everything you're saying. It is so true. And

Kate Mason (12:00):

It's so confusing to parents. No, it makes huge sense. In fact, I'd love you to just tell our listener what the word paradox means because that's what we're going to be talking about today. So what does it mean?

Dr Jenny Brown (12:15):

Well, a paradox is something that is really counterintuitive. And in my title, you can see that I've put a meta paradox out there, which is the idea that we can love our children and crowd them too much. And the paradox is if you step back and give them space, which doesn't sound like love, it actually can be the most loving leadership that you can offer. So that's a core paradox. And I don't mean neglectful parenting. I mean, stepping back from doing for the child and being present in a different way. But through the book, Kate, I do, there are paradoxes everywhere in this approach. And of course, you've heard me talk about the paradox that less information about your child, about different vulnerabilities, about different diagnoses, less is better. We think that more is better, but what happens, the more we listen to all this information and what can go wrong for our children and how we can prevent it, parents lose their own job description because they're so focused on the child that they forget, I need to manage myself as a loving leader here.

(13:45):

I need to refocus on what's my job description here to help my child learn to deal with the challenges of life, bounce back, develop their coping skills, be responsible children and young people in the world. And when we just focus on children, that we lose our own compass as a parent.

Kate Mason (14:09):

I agree with that. And I think that even if a parent or our listeners there just constantly saying to yourself, "Actually, doing less can help more," was a really great thing to keep in your brain because it really does- Being present

Dr Jenny Brown (14:23):

For doing less.

Kate Mason (14:24):

Yes. Yes, that's right. So yes, I kind of get that, but yes, being present, doing less, but means more. So when we're talking about parents feeling like they're getting it wrong and they're doing too much of a good thing, where do you think this ... So this pressure's coming from society. What do we do about that guilt for those poor parents? Because understandably too, their anxiety is going to transfer onto the child as well because we rarely talk about parental anxiety and how that might move through to the child. So how does it shape how they're showing up for that child and how can they notice, actually, I'm feeling really anxious about the way I'm dealing with these things and not feel judged and overwhelmed because I think-

Dr Jenny Brown (15:12):

Oh, it's a big topic. I mean, parents are incredibly stressed that is noted through a lot of surveys. And we often talk about burgeoning children's anxiety, anxiety disorders going up dramatically every year in children, but parents' stress is really taking its toll. But it's very tricky because many parents don't think they're anxious. They're worried about their children, but they're not noticing the impact of stress in themselves. And here's the thing, when we help our children, it actually works to lower our stress. So that's one of the traps that caretaking reduces stress for many of us, which is what fuels overdoing it. So when we stop that over caretaking, often that's when we start to notice, "Oh, I'm more anxious than I realized I am." But that's the start of a parent noticing, "Well, I get triggered when my child is upset. How am I going to manage that anxiety inside of me?

(16:29):

How am I going to build my tolerance muscles in the face of my child's distress?" And that's the value of a parent just shifting the focus back to, how do I want to manage me rather than, "How should I manage my child?" It's a paragox.

Kate Mason (16:50):

It is. It is. And it's really hard to step back. Do you feel sometimes that they don't have the skills either to step back and know what to do when, say, for example, the child is having a meltdown because they can't do something, the learning around that is really important as well, I guess, because it's all very well to step back. But if you've got nothing to step back with, you can't do anything. Oh,

Dr Jenny Brown (17:16):

That's so well said, Kate. It's tricky. And you will know in the book that I'm not giving parents a cookie cutter technique approach. I'm giving them a map for getting out of their worry cycles or conflict cycles with their children and helping them see, here's what's in my control to adjust when I'm caught in fueling the worry and my child reacts with either more defiance or more helplessness and how they can change that. And every parent will do that a little bit differently, which is why I'm not telling parents, "Follow these exact steps." There are a few little techniques that are incredibly valuable. One of them is called the I position, and I talk about that a lot in the book of a parent being able to say to a child, "Here's what I'm willing to support, but here's what I'm going to say no to because I'm committed to your best." And helping parents see that there are lots of things they can say no to that don't result in a power struggle.

(18:29):

I mean, they'll get pushback for the child, but if it's in the parent's realm of choice to say, "No, I'm not buying that for you at the supermarket." Or, "No, I'm not going to drop everything now to help you with your homework when you've left it to the last minute."

(18:49):

I'm willing, once you've given it a go at it to have a look at it with you, these ... So there's a lot in this core idea of parents noticing how they're reacting to their child, all the things they're trying to do to change the child that are not working, but the things they can change about themselves that are ... There is so much there, and that's what helps parents regain their confidence. I see that all the time.

Kate Mason (19:22):

It's a really great thing to say because what happens is that we get in a cycle and it's the same cycle, doesn't it? It just goes on, put that away, do that, blah, blah, blah. And then there's a blow up and then ... And you go back to that cycle daily. So since I read the book, I've even used it with myself, with my adult children and the guilt of today I had to race to a swimming lesson and I said to my daughter, "I won't be there at the end of the lesson because I have to go into a podcast." And she went, "Oh." And I said, "I know, but I'll be there for other lessons." Even just having that I statement and not feeling quite guilty because there I should be there for the first swimming lesson and rolling her up in the little towel at the end of it.

(20:13):

And I'm like, "Ma," I'm sitting here going, "Yes, it's power." And what you say in your book is it takes a while to, and you have to recognize it and practice it and it doesn't always go right.

Dr Jenny Brown (20:28):

Trial and error. We learn from it. The long game is fine. It's the better way to get lasting change. You try a few quick fix techniques and they might work for a short while, but I'm sure the parents out there, and I remember back to my trying the different star charts and a new way of managing a tantrum, and you'd get a few little promising signs, and then it would be right back to where you started again because you hadn't changed your mindset as a parent. And the other thing I'd say, Kate, in terms of tolerating that it can take a long while, is that if parents just can learn that they can stop fueling the cycle, just stop adding to it, that that makes a big difference before they know what to replace it with.

Kate Mason (21:28):

Yes. And you talk about calmer parenting. Now, some people are naturally calm, we know that. I have a husband who's not, and so calmer parenting does actually put that whole emphasis. It takes away the stress as well for the child, but not everybody has that, and it is very hard to do. So what do you recommend if you are not a calmer person yourself? Are there a few tips because to bring yourself back in after you're ready to blow is a hard gig.

Dr Jenny Brown (22:02):

Yeah. And there's so much talk out there about the importance of emotion regulation for children and how parents can help their kids manage their emotions. But I'm just a believer. And let's start with us in managing our own emotional triggers and using the pause button to notice when we get triggered or for those of us that have that temperament we're born with where we do just fly off the handle easily, just the capacity to say, "Oh, that wasn't helpful. I need to reset. I'm sorry I lost it then that's something I'm working on. " Think about what that's like for a child to hear their parents say. Absolutely. There are simple little things, but they will look different for all of us for just turning down the intensity or when it erupts and it's like that knee-jerk reaction to be able ... It's not too late to put the pause button on and acknowledge that, "Yeah, I am upset about how you've just spoken to me, but it's not going to help for me to speak to you in that tone.

(23:20):

I need to reset and we can talk about it later." They're the ways that parents can work on their own emotional tricks.

Kate Mason (23:28):

And they are really great cues. Now, the other thing that you talk about is helping parents actually with each other when they get caught up in these situations where one of them's staying calm and good and the other one's blowing up. And then you're saying to them, "Don't get angry with him and you're plicating, oh my goodness, it all just gets really messy." So what is your advice to the parents? You talk about I, for one person, what should happen with the other person?

Dr Jenny Brown (24:02):

Yeah. Well, this is a surprise, another paradox because it kind of challenges the United Front. And yes, it's so helpful for parents to talk to each other about how can we support each other towards the common goals we have for our children, but we're going to be different. We come from different families, we're born with different temperaments, and both parenting partners are in trial and error. We're making our mistakes and learning from them, and we've got to let our partners do that and not interfere even when we can see they're messing up a bit. That's okay. I mean, there are exceptions if safety is an issue, but in the day-to-day of normal parenting, let our partners make mistakes and ask them to let us make mistakes and we learn from them. We don't have to get it right all the time. It's a dynamic process.

(25:08):

Our kids are learning, we're learning, and it's such a common thing. It's called a triangle in family systems theory where when we undermine the other parent and step in to say, "Stop shouting at Billy," or whatever it might be, and the parent is going to feel pretty annoyed by being told what to do in front of the child. The child aligns with the parent who's taking the softer approach. It leaves the other parent on the outside of that triangle. It doesn't help our child at all to have that alliance where they're always looking for one parent to come in and be on their side. So there's a lot we can learn to adjust about that. There

Kate Mason (25:58):

Is. There is. And I found that really, really valuable even for myself at this age and stage of life, being the one that's always the placator. And I just sat there after I read it and I thought, "Oh my goodness, that's me. Time to make some changes here."

Dr Jenny Brown (26:15):

Yeah. And when I discovered this brilliant theory, Bowen Family Systems Theory, when I was studying in the USA in the early 1990s, light bulbs went off just as you're saying, not just for the clients that I had worked with, but for myself and my own family, it's a brilliant theory. I'd like it to be better known out there. That's been part of my passion because it so clearly shows us the patterns we all get into and how we can get out of them.

Kate Mason (26:52):

So your book is basically written around that theory

Dr Jenny Brown (26:56):

As

Kate Mason (26:56):

Such?

Dr Jenny Brown (26:57):

Yes. Okay. I draw from the other research that's important to help parents and professionals see what backs it up. So it's broader than that, but predominantly this is the theory that I've learned to apply to my own life, in my parenting, in my relationships. My earlier book, Growing Yourself Up, was taking the theory into the life stages of adult family life. And so this is one where I'm really wanting to bring this theory alive for people in their parenting.

Kate Mason (27:37):

You've done a wonderful job in your book. Let me tell you, and I really hope our listeners is going to pick it up and read it, or if they see anyone else that's having any problems, get them to buy a copy. Now, what's one message that after today you love every parent that's listening to take away from this conversation, what would it be?

Dr Jenny Brown (28:00):

Well, the key message is when you make yourself the growing project, when you work at growing your own clarity, that is the greatest gift for all the people around you and particularly your children. And I know that sounds like a paradox and there's no room for guilt for parents. There's enough of that going on. It doesn't help parents, but this paradox is a platform for growing confidence and hope, and that's the message I'm keen to get out there. In my book and in my parenting programs and my Parent Hope Project manualize program that I've also got for professionals, so they can use this way of working with parents, but that's the key message. Make yourself the project, not the child, and it can make such a difference.

Kate Mason (28:58):

Excellent. So take that focus back onto you. That is wonderful. So where can we find this work? And tell us about your Project HOPE just briefly.

Dr Jenny Brown (29:09):

So the Parent Hope Project, you can find a website with lots of resources for parents, but it's also very much focused on training professionals, how to deliver a four-part confident parent course using this approach in schools or in community, and also for mental health professionals working in the child and family space, how they can work alongside parents as a core part of an intervention for a child who's struggling. So the courses are available, the manuals are available, there are some other little self-help pieces, there's free parenting courses. And like you, Kate, I'm using the podcast platform to be able to get These ideas out there are accessible, so the Parent Hope podcast as well.

Kate Mason (30:05):

Okay, beautiful. And is that all on a website? What's your website?

Dr Jenny Brown (30:10):

It is. If you just look up parenthopeproject.com. Au, you'll find it.

Kate Mason (30:17):

Brilliant. Look, I've taken so much from your book, Jenny, and even more from this conversation that we're having today. There's so much here for parents to reflect on, but it really feels calm and reassuring. So thank you very much for being with us today.

Dr Jenny Brown (30:32):

It's been wonderful. Thank you for having me, Kate. It's been good to chat.

Kate Mason (30:36):

Before we finish today, I want to leave you with something that Jenny shared. That is when you make yourself the growing project. When you focus on your own clarity and how you show up, that becomes one of the greatest gifts that you can give your children. So maybe that's something to sit in this week. And where might you step back just a little and allow both yourself and your child a space to grow? And if you know anyone that might really be feeling overwhelmed right now, perhaps even sinking in an anxiety about their child, please pass this podcast on, because sometimes just hearing that you're not alone and that there is something within your control can bring a great sense of relief. Thank you for listening to Parenting and Personalities. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and a review that would help others learn about this podcast.

(31:34):

If you're interested in discovering more about you and your family's personality types, you'll find my book, who is a smonster or treasure in my house on Booktopia or Amazon. If you have an episode idea, please send a note to the personalitycoach@gmail.com and many thanks to our wonderful producers at Stories and Strategies, and we'll see you next time.