E58: Aspire to Care (ft. Cody Ragonese) - Real Men, Real Conversations

In this episode of Aspire - Real Men, Real Conversations, hosts Alex Prout and Gabriel Viscogliosi sit down with Cody Ragonese, Associate Director of Programs at Equimundo: Center for Masculinities and Social Justice. Cody shares how his journey from academic work in public health and international development to Peace Corps service in Eswatini led him into engaging men and boys in gender equality, HIV prevention, and violence reduction, and eventually into global masculinity work at Equimundo. He describes how early “girls’ empowerment” programs revealed a critical missing piece, and how building boys’ clubs focused on behavior change, safer sex, and relationships became his entry point into gender-transformative programming.​

Together, Alex, Gabriel, and Cody unpack why “gender equality needs men just as much as men need gender equality,” reframing this work not as charity or “allyship” but as men’s empowerment and liberation from harmful, socially constructed masculinity. They dive into concepts like the “man box,” the crisis of connection, and boys’ emotional masks, exploring how norms of stoicism, dominance, and narrow definitions of strength leave many young men isolated, under-equipped, and convinced that “nobody cares if they’re okay.” Cody explains how Equimundo works across ecosystems, from preschool classrooms and sports fields to online spaces like Discord and influencer content, to help boys and men redefine what it means to be a man. The episode closes with Cody’s “I have the right to” statement, balancing accountability and care: a call for men to be held responsible for their actions while also being supported to express care in ways that build empathy and connection.​

To learn more about Equimundo, please visit https://www.equimundo.org/

For more information on I Have The Right To, visit https://ihavetherightto.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to Aspire, an I Have the Right To podcast, where we amplify voices, share stories, and drive change in the fight against sexual assault. We explore the critical issues surrounding student safety, institutional accountability, and survivor empowerment. In every episode, our goal is to provide insightful conversations with survivors, experts, educators, and advocates, giving you, our listener, valuable information, resources, and actionable steps to create safer environments and cultivate the culture of respect and consent. Welcome to another episode of Aspire, Real Men, Real Conversations. This is going to be an interesting conversation today. Gabriel, I'll turn it over to you for the introduction.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Yes, so for our guest today, we are pleased to have Cody Raghanese. Cody Raghanese is the Associate Director of Programs at Equimundo, Center for Masculinities and Social Justice, where he leads U.S. and international efforts to engage men and boys in building more caring, equitable communities. He's passionate about helping organizations from schools to global companies challenge harmful gender norms and promote healthier models of masculinity. In his role, Cody provides strategic oversight and technical expertise in the design, implementation, and evaluation of Equimundo's gender transformative programs. He builds and manages global partnerships across the private and public sectors, driving scalable solutions and advancing innovative approaches to address today's most pressing challenges in gender equality and male engagement. Prior to joining Equimundo, he held a program management role at PACT, supporting projects across Southern Africa in health, democracy, governance, and integrated livelihoods. His passion for gender equality programming stems from his time as a Peace Corps volunteer in Eswahini. Cody holds a master's degree in public health with a focus on monitoring and evaluation in sex, sexuality, and gender from Boston University, and a bachelor's degree in international development from American University's School of International Service. So we are pleased to welcome Cody Raghanese. And I'll start off first with a question to Cody, a little bit about your journey. So, first, what drew you to gender equity work and how do your experiences, particularly your time as a Peace Corps volunteer, as I just mentioned, how did that shape the path that led you eventually to Equimundo?

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Yeah, thanks. Uh, and happy to be here. Um, thanks for having me. Yeah, I think, you know, everyone sort of has their own journey into this work. Mine was definitely more academic in the start. So as you had mentioned, you know, studied international development and public health, and then went to uh Eswatini to be a Peace Corps volunteer. There, I didn't really go with the intention of doing masculinity's work or even violence prevention work really. Um, as you might know, they were uh really impacted by the HIV AIDS epidemic earlier in the 1990s and through the 2000s. Um, and by the time I had gotten there, there was a lot of work around, you know, women's empowerment with girls and young women across the country, um, but not really anything for the boys. So, what you know, through my conversations with community members and schools, what we had done is sort of developed a club model, actually similar to what you all are doing, uh, that is complementary to the girls' empowerment program, but really around boys and their own behavior change and attitudes and all of that. So in the beginning, it really came from a desire to reduce HIV incidents through safer sex practices, you know, and a reduction of violence in intimate partner relationships from teens. Um, and then, you know, through research and all of this, you know, I got a larger picture of what gender equality really is and what male engagement, what you know, role men and boys play in that. And so a lot of that was, you know, really moving conversations and work with boys. And I still am friends and have contacts, you know, that still remind me of the sessions around condom use and all of that stuff, um, even 10, 12 years later. So definitely um, I think starting with the sort of academic uh theory-driven approach to what it means uh to engage men and then actual practice in the community level. Um, went back to grad school and actually interned at a kimundo um after grad school and uh, you know, rest is history. So um yeah, definitely come to this work through a mixture of practice and and theory.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

You know, it's it's interesting, Cody. You you talk about, you know, the journey, and one of the first touch points or topics was women's empowerment. And this is something that obviously I've I've seen through the sexual violence, um, prevention and consent education advocacy, you know, natural topics and audiences when you get into, you know, this kind of work is about uh women's empowerment. And I'm gonna ask you a reaction to this statement because what what I've seen through, you know, I have the right to's masculinity work over the last three to four years. Um, you know, when when I first started, you know, the popular word was um allyship, right? In terms of engaging men on this. And as a father of a s of a survivor, as someone who has lived in very, you know, masculine heavy universes, you know, I I professionally I grew up in the world of finance, grew up in New York City, and you know, in many ways, allyship infers that we're in a position of superior capabilities, superior power, superior, and then the next word, and that we have to reach down and help other people. But the more I dove into this work, I found, and you triggered this with this women's empowerment thing. It to me, it really is a men's empowerment issue, and would would love to get into a little back and forth discussion on that and get your get your reaction.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Yeah, no, that's exactly right. And I think like over my career, I've sort of, I usually say in panel discussions and others, you know, gender equality needs men just as much as men need gender equality, right? And so really, when you're thinking about men's health, when you're thinking about behavior change, all of these norms around masculinity and manhood, how you're socialized and grow up around that tough stoicism, um, it impacts men as well, right? And so, as an entry point into women's empowerment, you see a lot of the manifestations of sort of more harmful gender norms create behaviors that impact women and girls negatively. I think what's emerging from the field of gender equality more broadly is this idea that actually men are affected negatively by these, you know, harmful gender norms and that they benefit from more gender equitable ones, right? And so when you're thinking about individual level, you're thinking about mental health, the ability to express emotions, that's gender equitable, right? That is very much in that non-uh traditional sense of what it means to be a man, right? When you're talking about relationships, you know, a lot of the work that Akimundo does is centered around this relational approach of relationships. So it's not only the impact that it has on partners, but also that sort of bi-directional relationship within that interpersonal one. At the family level, you know, we talk a lot about fatherhood as an entry point to male caregiving and this sort of ethic of care more generally for men. They, you know, get so much satisfaction and purpose out of care for their family, whether it be for a newborn, whether it be for elder parents, right? And so this idea of sort of gender equity as an entry point, I think is a little bit of a Trojan horse of sorts to say, yes, it is extremely important that men are, you know, treating women with respect and really holding themselves to standards uh of nonviolence and respect and all of that, but the sort of indirect uh benefits it has on them are tremendous. And I think as we're engaging men, specifically in school groups and you know, larger in adulthood, I think we really need to focus on that, right? There is something in this for men themselves.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

You you mentioned you know, fatherhood being sort of an entry point and being the dad of three girls. I absolutely sort of understand that. But I also look back and you know, thankfully, biologically, there was a magical switch that that you know uh is available to to happen, let's say, right? Um but now one one of the things, because you know, in in our work, because we we work with a lot of boys in in schools, and my my mentor, um, you know, Don McPherson, who's been doing a lot of work in in the space of speaking to men about masculinity and being the the the truest, whollest versions of themselves, um, you know, he um always says, you know, we we've got to delete the word toxic masculinity from our lexicon. And at our org, we we came up with a replacement term which is socially constructed masculinity, because we we believe that this is more about the air that our boys um and young men breathe every day through social media, through culture, peer pressure, etc. Um But you know, when hearing you say that about father fatherhood being sort of an entry point for men, my initial reaction was gosh darn it, that's too late. Right. Um and you know, what about all of the men that don't have the blessing of fatherhood? Right. And you know, and I love the fact that you talked about relationships because you know, all the data and the research now says we have a crisis of connection, especially with boys and young men. Um and the trends are just you know, the the outcomes of the trends are horrendous in terms of boys in higher ed boys and men disengaging from you know society in different ways and fashions. Um but sort of in in your work, and I do love the fact that that you know your your focus at Equimundo is relationships, right? And and the you know, subset of that is is the concept of care uh being something to focus on and promote. But you know, at our org, you know, we started with consent education in high schools, but working with schools, we say we want to push this down as early as we can have age appropriate conversations. But how do we how do we change and I'm jumping right into a heavy meaty topic, right? Which is how do we change this concept of relationships with men? You know, I I am I'm dating myself by this, but when I was dating my wife, I took her to a one-person Broadway show called Defending the Caveman, and it was a man sitting there talking about masculinity, right? And talking about how men communicate but in in the funny way was men really don't communicate. They do it by just sitting together like fishing and elbowing each other, but you know, very few words. But you know, uh what is your thought about how we can, you know, solve for this connection problem that just has so many harmful outcomes to men, you know, later in life?

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah, no, it's a good point. And I think like, you know, again, the crisis of connection, I feel like our data actually reveals there are similar elements of this crisis of connection with women and men, sort of from 18 to 24, the State of American Men 2025 says sort of roughly equal uh statistics around that. I think what it is is exactly what you mentioned, is how do they respond, right? And so men generally don't have many deep connections or deep friendships. They're mainly shoulder to shoulder as they're connecting with others instead of face to face. Um, so a lot of these things is how we're socialized, exactly what you said. You know, this sort of socialized masculinity a lot of times has policed us to suppress those emotions, to suppress the sort of, you know, idea of vulnerability. And so, I mean, it is a it is a heady question that you pose, but I think starting early is definitely um a piece of that, right? So some of our programs are working specifically with preschool teachers, for example, on how gender socialization, with even the toys that they're putting out for boys and girls to play with, you know, further that and perpetuate those stereotypes. Working with elementary school teachers similarly, right? And so I think there's a huge entry point around right between pu right before puberty, right? Because we're also seeing a lot of the sort of detachment measures happen as puberty progresses, right? So 11 onwards, 14, 15, they're really trying to establish their identity. They're trying to see, you know, who is around them, how others are interacting. You know, a lot of parents come to us around that age to say, my boy was so sweet. And now, and so it's really, I think, around allowing and fostering that uh environment that gives permission to boys to continue to feel, to continue to connect all the way through. And that starts in school, as that's where the majority of you know their time is. That's at home, that's on the sports fields, that's in clubs and different communities, that's in church and other religious institutions, right? So I think it is this sort of ecosystem approach where one piece of the puzzle is necessary but insufficient for that change, right? And so when we're thinking about a saturation model, that is, I think, the goal is really reinforcing messages around this.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Gotcha. And and I'm gonna turn this question to Gabriel now to to chime in on this topic. Being sort of our resident young person, because I don't fall into that definition um anymore. But Gabriel, being a high school sort of senior, can you tell me about you know your ecosystem, right? And you know, I know you've been through different, you know, challenges, you faced all the normal pressures that exist within, you know, the that culture that you function in on a daily basis, and yet here you are putting yourself out there leading a podcast and putting yourself um almost as a target, right, for others to sort of take um um take shots at or to be inspired by, right? But can you tell me what what's your view of this sort of crisis of connection and this concept of relationships and what what can be done, you know, um from your sort of ground level position?

SPEAKER_03 16:55

Yeah, definitely. Well, so first I would say that I was kind of exposed to masculinity, like the idea of socially constructive masculinity pretty early on. And I always wanted to maybe switch that definition, and I was kind of on the softer side with like being in touch with my emotions and stuff like that. But I never really delved deep into the ideas of aspirational masculinity until really the start of high school. So there was still obviously time for me to really dive into aspirational masculinity, which I ended up doing, but there were still those original ideas that were outdated that started with me. So I think for me, it took me some time. I joined BLB, um, the aspirational masculinity club at my own school. And then from there, it just took a lot of time to keep on kind of tuning the dials and really altering my perspective to be more in touch with aspirational masculinity and embracing it. And I've talked about it with my peers, and a lot of them have also kind of switched their mind amount around masculinity. However, though, since it is at the high school level, there is still people that I have talked to who are still pretty in that area of socially constructive masculinity. And when I have talked to them about that, I have felt some kind of not backlash, but maybe resistance about their how their like um how their idea of masculinity because they've that's the only thing they've known and that's the only thing that they live with. And this resistance that they face is just constant because they want to be strong in their own sense and they don't want to reach out for help and all of that. But I have tried and I I think the way to really push past that resistance is to just kind of have this be a continuous conversation and continue working on it. But for Cody, I would push this on to you. When you do talk to young men and you know there's always these entryways, but maybe the entryways aren't as always successful and you are faced with resistance. How would you, maybe as an older compared to me in high school, fit turn that resistance into those people who actually resist that first, being those people who want to lead that change?

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Yeah, I mean, listen, I think everyone just wants to be listened to and sort of validated, right? At the core. I think a lot of times, and not to get totally into the political nature of this topic, but it is political also, right? So I think a lot of times folks, if pushed, really retreat, right? And stand up and say, Oh, I I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not going to engage with this, right? And so by approaching this with empathy, compassion, and care, which is exactly what I want them to, you know, approach me with, having that be sort of an experiential conversation rather than a teachable moment, is I think what really works with both young people and adults as well, right? So I find just having a conversation with a few questions, yes, I as a facilitator will have that sort of end goal in sight, but they don't need to know that, right? And so I'm continually asking, poking small holes here and there. And I think really just understanding what is it that they're trying to achieve by doing and performing that way, right? Is it status? Is it getting girls? Is it academic success, right? And having them understand that, listen, there's going to be a limit to this performative masculinity at some point, right? And that you can achieve the same thing, if not greater, with that more relational lens, with that more kind, caring, and respectful lens, right? That won't only benefit others, but will also benefit yourself. Um, so yeah, it's really just about listening first and sort of putting the onus on them to connect the dots. Um as you mentioned, it's it's a lifetime journey. It's definitely not a one conversation deal.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

So you you just said something that I think comes to sort of the the the core of the the issue here, because you know, when when you were talking about all those things that boys aspire to, right? In terms of um getting girls, you know, reaching positions of um of authority, you know, making money, what what we're talking about is really sort of what everyone faces in an in every day and also is the crux of sexual violence, which is power dynamics, right? Um you know, all the all the work says, you know, crimes of sexual violence are not crimes of passion, they are crimes of of power, right? And control. And you know, so we have this power dynamic that exists. And like you said, the one who barks the loudest pretends to be the one that is listened to, right? And then also followed, right, in in many ways. So we've got this from a systems perspective, we got structures in our society that reward, you know, the um um the squeaky wheel, let's say, or the alpha male who pounds his chest the loudest. I'm I'm doing this podcast today from Tokyo where the expression is actually the opposite. The the nail that stands up gets hammered, you know, hammered down. So conformity is the big, you know, thing here. But you also have a conformity issue in the US where there's wanting to follow, you know, the ruling class, let's say, right? So I think we also need a redefining of different terms here, right? Because I think, you know, you said it indirectly, but boys are only using maybe 20, 30 percent of the tools in their you know, skill box, right? Um and you know, we we we do a lot of times the typical manbox exercise with with students in schools. And you know, one time I had a boy who said, you know, Mr. Proud, you know, once you do the manbox exercise, you have attributes on one side that are represent quote unquote a real man, and then the others that represent a more you know um um empathetic or sensitive man. And you know, he said, Well, you know, I want to be strong, but I also recognize you know, this side, this other side is who I actually am, right? And you know, how do we get boys to understand that that their totality is their strength and the ability, you know, even redefining the term strength, right? Um strength is not dominating and being assertive over someone. Strength can be your tenacity in attacking a problem, your your conviction to your values, right? Um, so you know, have you found anything that really sort of opens up minds of of young people? And then I'd love to get Gabriel's reaction to that as our resident young person.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's really an important point. You know, a lot of times when we do the manbox activity, one of the one of the risks in doing so is really having folks think that masculinity is inherently wrong or negative or problematic, right? And that's just not true. I mean, there's so much in that box that if defined a little bit differently, they are extremely, you know, quality uh or extremely important qualities to have. And when you do it with a man box-woman box, you really see a lot of, you know, the blend of actually if we take this from the men and this from the women and create this sort of human box, we're really in a better place than having these things be split, right? Strength is a great example. Bravery is another one, right? When we talk about boys' disengagement in education, I use the example of is it not brave to ask a question in class you don't know the answer to, right? There's a whole bunch of other ways to be brave that include risks that aren't worth taking. But sort of redefining that bravery to a different setting, I think is really powerful. Same thing with a provider, right? Or protector. These are tropes that get played up in media and are most commonly said when, you know, asked what it means to be a man. But what else can you provide your family that isn't financial, right? You provide care. How do you protect your family? From who, right? A lot of times these are just automatically, you know, beating your chest, protecting your family with a bat and a gun, right? But there are a lot of ways that we can just shift that conversation. And I think using the terminology that people associate with men is a good starting place because it's not a total indictment of their identity, right? It's it's these micro incremental changes around these qualities that will in turn sort of enlighten that sort of gender equitable lens. But yeah, Gabriel, we'd love to hear your thoughts as well.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Yeah. Well, I think the manbox activity in itself is such a great um kind of activity that's done, but it's also such a universal one because just recently, I think it was last week, actually, I helped lead the manbox activity within DLB, my own uh co- uh affinity that I co-lead. And when we were doing the real versus an actual real complete man, one of the things that I made sure to point out, because I've been a participant in the activity myself, and those same questions arose that we just talked about. About so when the the word strong came up and competitive, I made sure to highlight when I was listening at listing those things out that okay, just because it's on this side doesn't mean it's entirely bad. There are some obviously very good aspects of this, but just very important that you have to place it in times when you know how to use it. And being, it's also very important to use it very like use it with care. You're not just doing something full out or not at all. It's all about a mix. And when you are tell students and when you tell what I tell my fellow fellow peers, that it is a mix, that you can be competitive on a sports field and realize that you do want to win. But at the same time, when you're off the sports field, you don't keep that same competitive, very angry, aggressive energy towards your friends. You actually tone it down. And as Alex said once when he spoke to our class and our school, it's all about the dial. And I think for me, that's always stuck with me. And though I do think that some peers still do struggle with the idea of it being one or the other, I think when I approach it with the idea of it being a mix, that's how more of my friends are able to be much more receptive. However, I do think there is a big issue within online spaces like social media. I think the feed and how the algorithm is set up makes it in the way that all you see is things that are very out there and very in your face. And when you for things to be in your face, they have to be very one-sided or the other. And that just creates this whole big disparity between all strength or no strength and you're so weak. So I would ask you, how are you do you think you're able to kind of combat these ideas online that often come across as kind of fear-mongering in one way or pushing one strong narrative all the way on one side or all the way on the other, and instead kind of face it with that in the middle approach?

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Yeah. No, it's a good point. And I think this sort of like extreme binary that we're seeing online is a great example, like you said, of sort of it's either this or that. I think, you know, our work online has a multi-pronged approach. You know, we're working with influencers on content that can reach that middle ground. And we're also doing research to see sort of it's a spectrum of people who might via, you know, really not agree with anything gender equitable to the people on the other side who are that's all they can say and think about, right? There's a ton of people in this middle section, because it is a spectrum where those incremental messages can get someone from a four to a five to a six instead of presenting, you know, information that would be a 10 wokeness to somebody on the one spectrum, right? I mean, I'm using numbers here, but the idea of sort of playing into messages around uh agency, around flourishing, around the ability to sort of win the game of life, right? We're finding that those are really things that, you know, take folks incrementally from one step to the next. Um, so working with influencers, but we're also working with moderators for Discord and Reddit threads. I mean, if you think about these online environments around sort of Twitch streams or Discord channels, there's a ton of information there that folks are digesting and not sure what to do with, right? And then there's the moderators on the back end who are trying to foster this community, trying to foster this space where folks can feel free and you know, express themselves, but need to do so without causing harm, right? So we're working with them to try and make sure that they have the skill sets to be able to combat and prevent harm being done, as well as create that connection that we do hope, you know, with enough time will make smaller subcultures within that group be more pro-social, more caring for that community.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

And also just a follow-up question on that point. How, because I feel like for some people who are in this extreme kind of anti-gender equality or very in this area that's kind of far gone, how do you make things that seem extreme to them but are actually just the bare minimum seem like the bare minimum and actually seem more even and more fair rather than seeming like so extreme for them when it actually is the bare minimum?

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Yeah. I mean, first it's like, don't mention gender. Like we can talk about gender without saying the word, right? We can talk about liberalism and sort of progressive ideologies without saying it on the nose, right? And so, I mean, a good example would be we've developed video games and sort of online content that doesn't have anything to do with gender equality. It's a fighting game, right? But this idea around sort of emotional expression is built into the game where yes, the idea is not for them to take fighting into the real life. But I think the idea is really connecting them where they are and having those sort of incremental ways of saying, you know, you're gonna be better for this, right? Again, it's finding that value add for them as a hook rather than saying you need to do this, think of your sister, right? I think that sort of like empathy approach around the like, oh, you know, we all have women in our lives, be better, is not great. I mean, let's be honest. We should be thinking about this from a rights approach just at its core, right? It's like human decency and good. I hope people don't need sisters to be able to do that, is my two cents in that. Um, I'm not sure what you guys think of that, but yeah, that's that's sort of where I'm I'm landed.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Yeah, in this advocacy advocacy space, you can imagine how upset or yeah, upset, frustrated, angry, you know, post me to all these men coming up and saying, you know, I have a mother. And I'm like, yes, of course we all, you know, we all do. Um and um, you know, we're we're talking about my wife, you know, when we we started this work and thinking about aspirational masculinity, it was obviously because we felt this is an you know an area that we needed to sort of wake up a bit um and shine some light on the damage that's being done. Um and you know, but I think you know, m Susan always says we need to talk about aspirational humanity, right? Because these are you know, these are core values that we all have. But um I'm gonna put you on the spot here, Cody, because this is something that I do with some of our guests. I do it with boys uh when we go and speak, but I'm gonna ask you, um, and I would like you know to see you know how fast and how automatic your responses are. But if you could give me three three adjectives to describe who Cody is at his core, that you know, these these descriptors that could be descriptors that have been consistent in your whole conscious you know, lifetime.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yeah, sure. I mean, I would say dependable, respectful, and hardworking would be off the top of my head three of those.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Wow. That was quick, um, which I love. And it it it sort of correlates to the work that you're doing, Cody. Um you know, we we had a brilliant discussion multiple episodes ago, and it was our other co-host, Hugh Eastman, who in such a wise way described um you know the small stones that young men have to swallow every day. Right? They're put in situations where they feel uncomfortable, but you know what? They say, I just need to get through this, right? So they swallow a stone. And it's very easy to sw swallow a small stone. But if you think about that, you you're every day you're swallowing maybe three, four to ten stones. Yep. These things, you know, accumulate, right? And you know, what we found is when we put different people through this little simple exercise, some boys have a really hard time of listening to the question up here in their mind, and then going through the journey because there's so many blockages there. And the one thing that was really clear, and unfortunately our viewers couldn't see it, but you know, there was no like pensive moment in in Cody's face. It was just like I prepared pre-prepared this question to you beforehand, you know, which which I love. Right. Um and you know, you could see those three descriptors in the work that you you've created for yourself, you know, in your life. Um and there's some boys who will sit there in silence, and I will let them sit there in silence. But the miracle thing, Cody, is watching the journey that a transformation that boys go through when they are forced to think that, and then you see the physical change where they might be sitting like a bro with crossed legs and crossed arms, but then you see this physical transformation, and then they get to words finally about like love, supportive, you know, friend, funny, you know, whatever the term might be. And you know, from our work perspective, that is the critical thing because we've working with you and Gabriel and other boys and and at schools, they have digested so much from our society, right? And this is a pollution problem that that we adults have created, right? So I think it it it is almost a leadership issue, and I'd love to get your reaction on this, because this is something that we've consciously constructed or we have allowed to be constructed in our society and are standing there passively not doing anything about, and we know intellectually that the this is pollution for our young people, but somehow we're we're not taking action. So for me, this is a whole ecosystem issue, right, that all of us need to give a hoot about, right? But um would just love to get your reaction to that.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

Yeah, no, I mean I think boys aren't encouraged to think about who they are. I think they're not asked, they're not celebrated as such. The adults in their lives, you know, may or may not appreciate the the kinder moments that come through. And sort of, you know, I I think a lot of times boys to themselves don't necessarily communicate, you know, uh who they think the other person is. You know, if you don't hear, hey, you know, you're really caring, do you know that? Or, you know, wow, you're a really hard worker, you're not gonna think about yourself as such, right? And so I think a lot of times when when boys aren't being told sort of who others think of them as, that also plays into this sort of identity crisis of I'm not really sure who I am then, how I'm perceived by others. I might have an idea, but others might have a completely opposite view. Um, and I do think that's an ecosystem-wide approach, you know, this idea of boys will be boys and sort of, you know, just let them do what they do without accountability, and on the other side, also without celebrating, right? Um, the sort of the good moments and the and the good qualities and that sort of uh reinforcing positively. Um, I also think, you know, we do this activity in in programs around the mask of emotions and sort of on the outside what you portray to the world versus on the inside, what do you hide? I think similarly, sort of identity markers would be the same thing, right? Whether emotions or not, but sort of what is the, what is the identity that you put out into this world? And what are the responsibilities? What are the sort of skeletons in the closet around what you think of yourself as, whether that's unworthy of love, whether that's, you know, a full-time caregiver for an elder or a sick parent, right? There are things that we keep to ourselves that don't necessarily get portrayed. And the sort of socially acceptable ones are always on the outside, right? And so a lot of times you do find this sort of homogeneity across boys, specifically in teens, where they're just trying to meet the standard of the person in front of them, right? Um, and so you don't find that sort of wider expression of identity until maybe college or somewhere where they're really tested and sort of that independence can flourish.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Yeah, well, I love the idea of the masks. And we've also talked about that idea previously on the podcast. And I think it's one that just reigns so true for so many people. And I think initially also that idea of the mask also stems often from fatherhood and from father itself, because I feel like especially in past generations, fathers were always stone cold, never crying. So I haven't seen my father cry recently, uh like in a long time or ever, or just because all that's seen is those stone cold emotions. So when you see older people portraying those emotions, then you yourself kind of develop your own mask. And it becomes hard for you to take that mask away because you've only seen people wear that mask. And then I think that also kind of leads to the generational divide with the idea of masculinity and kind of where it's at now. And I think as you, you talk to young men, but you're also older. You're not that old, obviously, at all, but still there is some viewers can't see. The viewers are still very young. Yes. But um, I would say, how what do you think is the biggest disparity between how young people see masculinity, young men especially, compared to maybe let's say a couple generations older than them? And how can you really fix that gap?

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Yeah. I mean, I think you you definitely marked a few of them, right? So sort of emotional control, also self-expression. I mean, in in the sense of even dress and makeup and accessories and things like that, where you wouldn't have seen that a couple of generations ago, that's becoming more and more mainstream with the help of singers and artists and movies and media and all of that stuff, right? What we're also seeing in our research is actually some core sort of gender attitudes regressing to be more conservative, right? And so even with this sort of surge of more woke culture, for lack of a better term, we're also seeing that backlash exist, right? And so it's a divide maybe generationally, but it's also a divide sort of ideologically, right? And so we're almost seeing this sort of middle ground create a bit of a division here, right? And so I would say things like, you know, consent and respect for others in the sense of sexual assault, that from me too up until now, we're we're seeing a huge emphasis of that in sex ed schools or sex ed classes in schools, which, you know, that was not present a few generations ago, right? Um, we're seeing a lot of financial instability and sort of precarity across both men and women in younger generations. What that means is that sort of provider trope is still being, you know, uh perpetuated, but it's also being seen as, okay, in order to survive this life, we do need to both contribute. We both need to provide for this family. So I think there is elements here and there of shifts. But then you also see, you know, red pill ideologies and the manosphere really gaining a lot of momentum over the past five, seven years, right? And so trying to balance those two of seeing that progression in a lot of communities with also this sort of real grievance that a lot of men are experiencing and misplacing on feminism and gender equality is troubling. So, you know, as we're talking with uh with high school students in Are many ways of being, sex ed class. A lot of them, when they're doing the man box-woman box, we also add in a non-binary box, right? And they're like, everyone's equal. You know, uh there's not really too much difference between, you know, in relationships, the roles of men and women, which I always find interesting and sort of probe and do that. But I there is this sort of egalitarian mindset that I think youth are pulling into relationships, they're pulling into friendships, uh, that I do hope continue and can sort of offset those more negative, harmful uh narratives that we're seeing online.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

So you said something I think that is very sort of relevant to um this conversation in terms of this push and pull, right? Um because, you know, we we absolutely saw it post Me Too that this wonderful moment where, you know, survivors, victims felt empowered to use their voices and escape this world of darkness and and silence. But somehow that um event of people using their voice somehow offended some power structures and there was a a pullback, right? And then, you know, and the response from one part of Mandom was um wanting to have conversations about false accusations, right, or other issues. And, you know, and I think, you know, even around this this topic, right, you said there's, you know, some pullback, you know, happening. And, you know, at this rate, just like the gender pay gap, it'll take two centuries, you know, to bring about, you know, change. And so I want to sort of ask this question in the context of the work at Equimundo, right? And this focus, this strategic decision to focus on the concept of care. You know, how do you see the work of Equimundo, this focus on care being sort of an accelerator? And I think what we're talking about here is really just a leveling of a playing field. It's not looking to give one side an advantage or not. Actually, in many ways, it might be phrased as a way to help empower men, right? But would would love love your answer to that.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah. I, you know, I think care is a very strong antidote to violence and accelerator of health, right? And so you have these sort of two traditional fields within our space where there's the violence prevention folks and then the men's mental health, you know, folks. I think care does provide that through line of saying not only from an individual level, but also from an interpersonal level. And then you think about care for community, care for your environment, right? Climate change, all of that. I do feel like sort of an ethic of care, rather than solely around caregiving, although that's included, um, does cut through the noise there. And also when you're thinking about policy advocacy and things like that, our research shows overwhelmingly, no matter where you fall on the spectrum, there is support for care policies that support families, right? That could be parental leave, that could be child tax credit, that could be a living wage, right? And so there are a lot of power within care. And it also produces a lot of skill sets, whether it be empathy, whether it be listening, whether it be multitasking. There's all of these sort of, you know, indirect benefits of care that also can propel society towards that trajectory of gender equality. Um, we are seeing obviously businesses and, you know, the fall of DEI to some degree, um, which has been really devastating, I think, for a lot of progress that has come in the past. And so, you know, that 200, whatever, 300-year statistic will most likely remain the same unless there's really, you know, needle shifting movement from a policy angle, but then also just culture narrative shift. Um, and so a lot of the work that we're doing now is looking at those narratives online in media and really bringing that through our programming, trying to have a wider reach in programs, um, and at the same time think about the advocacy lane of what are the policies that can really improve and provide permission to care with men, but also, I mean, people of all gender identities, really.

SPEAKER_03 48:49

And going off the idea of care, I feel like it's really great that you guys at Equimunter are talking about care because I feel like it's an idea that a lot of people have in the back of their mind, but it's never really brought to the front of the mind and actually talked about like openly. So I would say I would ask to you if you maybe have like one phrase about care that you could give to all men or everyone that's listening to the podcast to stick with them because as one thing that they can always keep in the back of their mind, but actually kind of switched to the front of their mind to talk about care or masculinity in itself. What do you think that would be for you?

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Yeah, I mean, I think a sort of easy answer is our mission statement. Um, that's like if we if we care for men and boys, men and boys will care for others, right? And I think this sort of like contagion of care hopefully will take root. Um, because I do think, you know, being cared for is contagious. You're gonna want to pay that forward and give it back. Um, so I really do think, you know, in our surveys, a lot of men feel like nobody cares if they're okay. Right. And that is, you know, whether that's right or wrong, that is a depressing statistic that I think not only do we need to care for men for their sake, but also think about the broader picture, right? And think about what that care is going to yield in dividends moving forward with the folks in their lives, right? Um, and so yeah, I would just say care is contagious. So spread it. That's really corny, but we'll go with that.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

No, I love that. Yeah, I love it as well. Corny, corny is good. Um so maybe that's a good way for us to pivot to sort of our last, you know, question, you know, here. Um and you know, we the you know, the genesis of the name of our organization was based on a conversation that my um wife led with my three daughters when they were much, much younger. And the leader of the conversation was my youngest daughter, who at the time was about six years old, who, after they watched a CNN show on the 60s where the civil rights was in focus, my youngest daughter turned to us and said, um, it sounds like we need a girl's bill of rights, right? She was watching with her two sisters and her mom. And my my wife, who's the daughter of two public school teachers, said, sit down, here's paper. I want you to write out your I have the right to statements. And they did. And, you know, I have the right to use my voice and be heard, I have the right to be listened to, I have the right to, you know, wear what I want and not become a target of sexual violence. And so, you know, for us, that became a natural name for our org because we believe that all of us have these fundamental, you know, rights, and but we need to get build the muscle memory to practice, you know, saying it. And then once you get used to saying that, you know, there's a shift side of that of I have the responsibility too, right? It just is, you know, everything in life is, you know, is balanced. But I would like for you to use that phrase and end it, you know, for me in the context of your work, your your life's passion, and our discussion today.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

Yeah. Okay. So I have the right to, is the phrase.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

I have the right to be held accountable for my actions and also express care for others in a way that furthers empathy and connection. What I'm attempting to do there is balance this idea of calling men out and calling men in, right? Because I think it's really important to make sure that that accountability piece is there and we don't sort of just lean on the positive, but also calling men out and in in the same way. Uh, I think is that holistic picture of what we need to do in terms of men and boys' engagement.

SPEAKER_03 53:35

Yeah, I think that's such a just an important idea of that pulling, that push and pull, and it's just really finding that middle ground. And I think we struck that chord very well today, Cody. And I just want to say thank you so much for joining us today. I thought it was a very informative conversation and very inspiring for me, and I'm sure the rest of our viewers and listeners as well. So thank you so much, Cody.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Yeah, you've you've left me thinking with your I have the right to statement. You you left me a little, you know, um, I'm not someone who doesn't speak a lot, right? But that really left me thinking for a second. So I I really appreciate that. And I'm combining that with something that you said, which again might become the title of this episode. Right. Um, you said that something that I think is a reality for so many men that nobody cares. Right. And to our audience out there, I know that some people who are listening feel like nobody cares. And I want you to know there is a community that cares out there. There's a community of love and support that exists that cares deeply about you. And that caring, like Cody, you just said, accounts for that love and support, but also brings this level of responsibility and accountability, you know, to it. But that represents the joy of life, of being in community with people where you have both support and responsibility, and it's a two-way street. And I have such respect for the work that you know you do at Equimundo. Um it is such important work, it's such pioneering work because the the the view that you're taking and the perspective is so unique amongst advocacy groups out there. So to our listen listeners out there, please uh take a look at Equimundo. Please take a look at the work that they are doing and do not hesitate to connect um with them because we need more voices, we need more men, we need no more boys, you know, engaged in this topic. And, you know, Cody, I certainly hope that we find ways to collaborate and connect together because this has been so informative for me in terms of the alignment that exists. Um and it was extremely helpful for me to hear your definition of of care and caring. Um, because I think there's some words that naturally men veer away from, right? We did an episode on love um last year. And and again, I just had that reaction of fizzies all around my body, right? Just saying that word and feeling a little bit uncomfortable, using a word that exists in the air around us in such a positive, wonderful way. Yet men have such a hesitancy at times to use that term. Um, but I think care carries that same sort of gravitas.

SPEAKER_02 57:14

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And thanks, thanks for this conversation. Really enlightening and great to hear some perspectives across across a generational uh call. Um yeah, it was it was fun to fun to contribute. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Well, you know, this this has been another fantastic episode of Aspire. Um and you got to say it last time, you know, Gabriel, on our last episode, and I will say something that has become now a tradition, Cody. Um, I think this is the best episode ever. Uh, we're on quite a streak of 50 some episodes of this is the best darn conversation since we started this. Um, but to our listeners, please encourage your friends um to listen to this podcast. Um there is a dearth of connectivity. There's a dearth of source of support and caring and love for boys and men out there. And if we can do one thing and create a community where you know that you are cared for, you're supported, you're listened to, you're acknowledged, please share this with someone who needs to listen, who needs that framework of support or care. Please check us out on social media. We are available on every platform that you can imagine. This is critical work, Cody. God bless you for the work that you're doing, you know, every day. It's hard work and it's it's inspirational to hear about um what you're doing. So thank you. Yeah, thank you guys so much.

SPEAKER_03 58:56

Really appreciate it. Thank you, everyone, and thank you, Cody.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Thank you so much for listening. Like and subscribe to the podcast on all platforms. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please give us the five-star rating and tell your friends about Aspire. Follow us on social media at I Have the Right To. Learn more about our student and executive programming at our website at IHATHRight2.org.