E60: Aspire to Find Help (ft. Jim Maley) - Real Men, Real Conversations

In this episode of Aspire, Steve Peacock and Hugh Eastman welcome Jim Maley, founder of The Maley Way, for an insightful conversation on masculinity, mental health, leadership, and the power of vulnerability. Jim shares his own story of struggling silently with depression in college, the role his mother played in helping him seek support, and how his experience shaped the work he now does with young men and students.

The conversation explores how boys are often taught to hide emotion, how that pressure can reinforce harmful behavior, and why accountability, empathy, and honest conversation play important rolls in building healthier communities. Jim, Steve, and Hugh also discuss the impact of modeling respectful behavior, the importance of addressing “small things” before they become bigger problems, and why sharing personal experience can help others feel less alone.

Jim closes with the message that we have the right to be ourselves and stand up for what we believe in, even when it’s uncomfortable or unpopular.

To learn more about Jim, visit https://www.themaleyway.com/

Follow jim on instagram @themaleyway

For more information on I Have The Right To, visit https://ihavetherightto.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to Aspire, and I have the Right To podcast, where we amplify voices, share stories, and drive change in the fight against sexual assault. We explore the critical issues surrounding student safety, institutional accountability, and survivor empowerment. In every episode, our goal is to provide insightful conversations with survivors, experts, educators, and advocates, giving you, our listener, valuable information, resources, and actionable steps to create safer environments and cultivate a culture of respect and consent.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Welcome back to the Aspire podcast. I'm Steve Peacock, a frequent guest of the show and a board member of the I Have the Right To organization. And I'm here with my co-host, Hugh Eastman. Aspire was created by the nonprofit I Have the Right To as a space for honest, meaningful conversations about survivor advocacy, prevention, and what it truly takes to create safer communities. If these conversations resonate with you and you're interested in bringing them into your school, workplace, or community, we'd love to connect. I have the right to partners with K-12 schools, colleges, universities, and workplaces to provide age-appropriate programming for students, educators, parents, and employees on consent, healthy relationships, digital safety, leadership, and more. You can reach us at takeaction at IHavTheRightTo.org. Today is particularly exciting for me as I'm not only moving from the guest chair to a co-host spot, but I'm also thrilled for the opportunity to switch seats with our guest today, Jim May, founder of the Maile Way, as he had me on his show last month, talking about our mutual path to turning pain into purpose.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

We're very honored to have Jim on the Eye of the Right to Real Men, Real Conversations podcast today. Like Steve said, Jim is the founder of the Mailee Way, a leadership platform focused on character, accountability, and building men who lead with integrity rather than ego. Through his writing, speaking, and mentorship, Jim challenges young men and emerging leaders to rethink strength, responsibility, and what it truly means to show up with purpose. At a time when masculinity is often defined by performance, Jim's work centers on something different discipline, emotional maturity, and influence rooted in character. Today, Jim joins us to talk about leadership in today's culture, how masculinity can evolve without losing strength, and what it looks like to build identity from the inside out.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Jim, I'm so glad to continue our conversation from last month and dive deeper into the work you and I are doing to help students, particularly young men, develop into authentic, empathetic, and effective leaders and human beings. And so, Jim, for our listeners who may be new to your work, can you tell us what the Mailee Way is and what was your inspiration for creating it?

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Yeah, so I was someone, it's kind of funny that I'm on here doing this now. And it's funny that I'm going around speaking at different schools because I was like a really shy kid, like real painfully shy. And uh, but I was a good athlete, and that's kind of I guess that's how I how I spoke. Uh that's how I communicated with people was through sports and and that whole thing. Um, but then I developed in college, I was at Northwestern University and I struggled with depression. And it was something that I was not educated on, that I wasn't aware of. Um and it it caused me to make rash decisions. And one of those decisions was I quit playing the game that I loved. And over time, uh I ended up getting help, and mainly that was through my mother. My mom was the person who encouraged me to get help. And the way that she did that was sharing her own struggles with mental health and our family history with mental health. And, you know, it caused me to, you know, do something that I was a stubborn person. I didn't want to do, but I went and got help. And later on, my mom was the person that convinced me to share my story. And it was probably the best thing that she's ever done for me, not only, you know, for my ability to help others by doing it, um, but also like it's been very therapeutic for myself. I know we had talked about that, Steve. Um, it's been very helpful to me to know that, you know, maybe my struggles in the past are able to help, you know, young men and women in the future. And particularly right now, like what you said, uh, young men, I think, um, are a little bit behind the game in terms of mental health and being vulnerable and that type of thing. So I'm really trying to use my platform to, you know, help help those kids.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, and I just to pick up on one thing, Jim, from what you what you said was that beautiful connection you were able to form with your with your mother in your in your college years. Can you can you talk a little bit more about that in terms of you know her role of of helping you identify what you were feeling and then how to navigate through it?

SPEAKER_04 5:47

Yeah, I mean, so like in college, it was kind of funny. Like I was struggling, and the funny part was is I was like playing well at the time. So I was able to kind of hide it and I was able to frame it as like I'm I just don't want to play anymore. Um, but I wasn't letting my parents in on the fact that like I was sleeping nonstop. I wasn't letting them in on the fact that I was having all these irrational thoughts going through my head. And I quit and I ended up transferring to Holy Cross. And um, you know, it wasn't until like five years later where my wife walked in on me at in our condo in Chicago and saw me like curled up underneath a blanket, like crying and shaking and not making sense. And that's when she called my parents, and that's when my mom uh and my dad saw what was really going on. And I think that's when they really saw, you know, that I had inherited something that was kind of in it's our family business. Like that's it went through our family. And, you know, people always like think about or ask me, like, well, why didn't they say something sooner? Um, you know, as Irish Catholic family, like nobody talked about this type of stuff. And that's not like the whole thing, because I think my mom, if she saw it, she would have said something. Um, but you know, when I'm when I was like that, I became a great actor and I was able to convince everybody. I was able to lie, um, make things out to be not that big of a deal, um, and basically hide in plain sight. And now they saw it, and that's when my mom shared that story. And, you know, as she did it, I saw my dad in the corner of the room and he was like crying, and I had never seen him really cry before. And he was, you know, he was like, This is deja vu for me, Jim. Like from when I walked in on your mother looking the exact same way 30 years ago. And, you know, it was like it was like the impetus I needed to actually go get help. Like I was never gonna be able to listen to a PowerPoint or read a book. That was just not me. Like, I needed to hear it from someone that I knew had gone through it, particularly someone that was close to me. Um, and that got me, as my college coach called me, a stubborn Irishman. It got me to finally, you know, get help that first time. And uh it was a temporary solution, um, but it was a good one. Um and then, like I said, it went on to, you know, I ended up having to take a leave of absence five years later because I was really struggling. And I was the head varsity basketball coach at our school. I was a teacher. And the big thing was like, what I got better, but what was I gonna say to those 15 boys in that locker room? Like these were tough, hard-nosed kids from the south side of Chicago. Like, they weren't gonna believe in mental health, they weren't whatever. And so I was gonna lie. And my mom stopped me, like literally, like a day before I was going back. And she was like, Jimmy, there's gonna be a boy in that room that hears your story and goes and gets help because of what you say in that moment. You cannot lie. And so I went into that locker room and I told my story to these kids, my team. And, you know, the minor thing was we went we went on like a 12-game winning streak, which that was fun for me. But the major thing was, you know, a month and a half later, I got a knock on my office door, and sure enough, one of those boys came in. And this was a kid that I had yelled at, probably. I had made run, but he came in and he, you know, shared what was going on. And I always think back like, would that have happened if my mom hadn't convinced me? And I think no way, there was no way this kid would have come in and talked to me. And he did, and we got him the help that he needed. So from that point forward, I kind of started to understand the power of you know being vulnerable, particularly as a as a teacher and as a coach. Like we were always taught never to say anything about our personal lives. And from that point forward, I was just like, screw this. Like, I'm I'm gonna talk about this because I think it could help people. And it wouldn't have happened without my mother.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Yeah, thank you so much, Jim. I mean, I like how you said I didn't you didn't know if that kid would have come forward had you not said something. And I think it's really important. Like at school, uh I'm like the leader of uh Boys Leading Boys, um, the BLB group, um, along with Gabriel, who's the other co-host of this podcast. And like it's definitely hard, I think, for people to like say things in front of a bigger group, but I've had kids as well come up to me afterwards, um, you know, talk after like slideshows about mental health, even just basic things, just raising awareness. And I think it's really important. And like you said, quote unquote, like nobody talks about that stuff. And and I I think that's like people need to realize that it's just there's so much stigma around it where there shouldn't be. Um, and especially on young men. I don't know. I think we we talk a lot about aspirational masculinity. I mean, that's what this podcast is. And again, like that even receives a bit of backlash, I've noticed, because it's like we're saying it's okay to cry and like you know, be a little weak sometimes. And like, you know, some of the boys in that group as well will say, like, oh, shouldn't you? What if you're on the football field? Um, are you supposed to be weak or like even the basketball court? You know, same thing. And like the point of it is is not to say like cry all the time and like you know, be in a bad state, but rather like these emotions are normal and like you know, they're natural for a reason. So um, you know, kind of going off that though, what do you think about like leadership today? And like you said, with nobody talks about that stuff, what do you think people get the wrong most often when it comes to teaching young men these types of uh things and having these conversations?

SPEAKER_04 12:04

Yeah, I I think kind of what you said, like what some of those kids like I I I I always talk about toughness. And to me, looking back like at my own story, I always thought because I was experiencing depression, I always thought, like, oh, you're being a wuss. And now looking back, I almost think I was being the wuss by not saying something, by not reaching out and asking for help. Um, and that's that's where I think we need to switch it for men is like I want people to be tough, like, but part of toughness to me is not caring like how others are gonna perceive you to, you know, do what's best for you. And it's hard to do that. Um, but I had a guy on my podcast, which I thought I he made a great point. He was a guy, he got blown up in Iraq. Um, you know, he got his jaw completely destroyed, his throat. He could, he, it was kind of hard to understand him at times on the podcast. But one of the things that we talked about is I was like, you know, when you got in the army, how much did things change in terms of mental health? And he was like, when we when I was first there, it was like, you would never go see, you know, any person with regards to mental health because that would take you out of action. So it was always like discouraged. And then he said, This general, a new general came in, I forget what year it was. And the general was like, you know, we are army men. Like we would use every resource at our disposal to accomplish a mission. Why would we not use like mental health professionals to help us accomplish a mission? That's that's what we do as army men. And he said that kind of completely shifted the focus in the army where people are more willing to go and get help. And I think that's kind of what we need to do as men, is it's like say, I even think of like just admitting what you've done wrong and how you've how you've learned from that. Like, I wish I'm not gonna get into politics, but I would, I wish just politicians would just admit the things that they screwed up on in the past and how they're better because of it, as opposed to like saying it didn't happen or pointing the finger another direction. I think there's power to you know taking accountability, taking responsibility. And I think back to I'm a big baseball guy, like when like all those guys were lying about doing steroids, and I think Andy Pettit of the Yankees was just like, yeah, I did it. It was to, you know, overcome an injury. And everyone was just like, oh, okay, that makes sense. It's like people respect when you admit that uh, you know, you didn't always do the right thing, or people respect when you admit, like, hey, I struggle with this, um, but I'm willing to go get help. I think we need to shift the narrative on that. And I think it's starting to happen, but I think it could be a lot better, particularly with boys and men.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yeah, I think that's that's so uh powerful, Jim, you know, thinking about um concept of strength and and weakness and you know what shows up where for whom. And the reality is, you know, there's a version of that when you were talking about uh your mother who who clearly had tremendous strength and inner strength uh in her really guiding you towards these conversations. Which uh I know from our conversation we had when I was on your podcast, it was a big thing about to say or not to say, defaulting to to say, to get it out there, start a conversation, to be able to uh really deal with things authentically, as opposed to in my case, just kind of falling into LinkedIn and and having a ha aha moment, or in your case, kind of uh exhibiting symptoms that your mom, you know, saw and said, Hey, you know, your uh I don't mean this um the way it may come out, but it was it was it was certainly the case for me. You know, I see your act, you know, and I see through you, and I see your pain, and I'm gonna be I'm gonna be here for you and and and and I want to encourage you to say the same for others. So that is uh you know, that is a big thing in terms of uh the one of the things we talk a lot about is that the strength as well as the attributes that are Hugh alluded to it in terms of the crying, you know, may be for some people typically okay for women, not okay for men, or you know, even playing sports. You know, people have uh you know their biases and um you know their impressions based on what they saw growing up and what has modeled, uh what has been modeled to them. Uh and it's it's just you know an area that we spent a lot of time on, and I'd like to go a little click deeper with you on if you're okay with, in terms of you know, your experience with masculinity. So, you know, what messages did you get when you grow up? And then uh, you know, as you think about and reflect on who you are today, you know, just do a little bit of a compare.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I grew up like you were taught, like my dad was a my dad's a great guy, super positive. But like if you looked at him from the outside, he was very stoic. Like he never changed his expression. And you know, that was just kind of how I was. Like, I was I always thought, like, hey, you, you know, you work hard, you put your head down, and you grind through things. And you know, you like for me, it was like use that stubbornness uh to help you. And yeah, but we would never talk. Like, I would have never, I can't believe I'm doing that. Like my buddies, like all like make fun of me, not not in a bad way, but like joke around. Like, I cannot believe you, of all people, are going on pod, you have your own podcast, you're going around talking about this. Like that just was not a thing. And I think about even like I teach health class, and looking back on my years in health, like we never talked about any of this stuff. We it just wasn't referred to. The only thing you ever talked about was like self-esteem, maybe they touched on that a little bit, but there was never any talk of all these issues. Um, and it's something that I feel like I'm trying to change, like that, even at my own school. Um, and I see it reaching kids. Like I spoke at my school last week. I do it every two years, and I spoke to the entire junior senior class. I actually did it eight times because I hit all eight periods. And um, you know, I could see, like, I don't know if you get this when you talk, like I can see when I'm looking into the crowd, I can see the kids where I'm like, yep, like I know. Like I know that kid is dealing with something or has dealt with something. And I had this kid who I had been hard on, like really hard on. Like, I'm a big believer in like discipline, accountability. Um, because I think people think like mental health, you might be some guy that like lets things slide and you give a bunch of leeway. I mean, there's times for that, but I also think you gotta like hold the line, especially with boys. And there was this uh boy who I had been hard on when I had him in the past. And but we've developed a good relationship because I was hard on him. But then when I would see him doing things that were right, like I would praise him for that. And he's a kid who kind of struggled throughout his high school career. And three days ago, he came into our office and he had a he had this vanilla envelope and he gave it to me, and it was like a two-page letter. And it was basically how that helped him and how like he loved hearing me speak and it registered with him and all these type of things. And this was like a tough kid, like tough. Um, and he was willing to like step out because he saw like another man actually talking about this type of stuff. I just think I think there can be more of that. And I think, like I said, I think the misperception that maybe some men might get is that you have to be like soft on kids in order to do that. I don't think you have to. In fact, I'm more a believer in like long-term empathy. Like, I'm going to make decisions that are tough at the time, that you may not like me at the time, but that I think are gonna benefit you in the long run. And I think, I think kids appreciate that. Like, I I've had so much, so many better relationships since I really started taking the hard line and then showing the empathetic side later as opposed to like that short term empathy that might make me feel good. Um, but I don't think necessarily might be helpful in the long run. That was a long winded answer. I don't know if I answered your question.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

No, I think there's I I think there's a lot in there, but uh absolutely it is uh it is. A message we we we keep telling, which is the exterior is often very different from the interior. And we all want to connect and we all want to be uh you know good, decent people. Um we just have to figure out how to kind of dig out from some of the societal things that have you know potentially prevented us from being who we ought to be or could be.

SPEAKER_04 22:26

Well, and I think too with boys, um, you know, like with the work you guys are in, like, you know, I I I teach health, and sometimes we go through the statistics of like sexual assault, and it's like crazy. It ain't it angers me. It it almost angers me or Steve, like when I heard your story, it ain't like it angers me. And uh, I don't know, sometimes I'm fueled by anger in a sense, and you know, I think it's up to us, like as particularly as male teachers, to you know, instead of reacting to and not instead, we should react when something bad happens. But I think we need to focus more on prevention. And I think one of the ways to prevent those types of things is to attack the small little things. Like if you see a kid in school like making a sexually inappropriate comment to a girl, like I believe it's my responsibility as a man to like attack, like attack that little thing and be like, that is not acceptable. Because I think when you attack the little things, those bigger things might not necessarily happen down the line. Like when a kid is like realizes, like, oh, I should not have said that, you know, maybe like it doesn't snowball into something down the line. And I think that's what I like about the work you guys are doing is like obviously you're focusing on you know having the women share their story, but also like let's prevent men from doing these types of things, which I think is I think is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Yeah, and I was gonna say, like, um, the underlying like element for all of this is like this idea of the uh I would say like a culture of like pressure and forcing men into like balls and things that they shouldn't be. Um and uh I think a lot of it, like you talk about leadership, a lot of it comes from a lack of leadership and a lack of like someone putting their foot forward, you know, like we've all had those conversations you mentioned. I mean, it's pretty much unavoidable in society where you know you'll have a conversation and someone says something that you don't necessarily agree with, and yet all like the boys at the table will just laugh at it. And um, you know, it's hard, it's hard to be the one that that uh you know says something, but I've tried my best and and I've really I think just even like talking about it, doing this podcast, like throughout my years of high school, I've definitely like really matured in terms of that. And um I feel like you know, you just have to do it or else no one will.

SPEAKER_04 25:07

Yeah, you I mean like I could have never been doing what you're doing right now. Like it took years of like and I think it's hard sometimes for younger people like yourself to realize like sometimes like you need years of wisdom, like that wisdom, but you're you seem like you're getting off to a way better start than I did in terms of of that. Like, but like I would just encourage you to continue to go on that path. So, you know, it doesn't take you to your 35 years old. You you can kind of shorten that timeline down.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah, and it's like I think it's very dependent on you know where you grow up, where you go to school. Like I went to an all-boys school for middle school, and then my first you know, co-ed experience was high school. So, and we didn't really have any, like, we didn't have any of these conversations at uh uh my old school St. Bernard's is like a I I think it used to be like religious, now it has really no religious affiliation, but like but still I think that culture uh prevents these conversations, not necessarily prevents, but like often just avoided in general like discourse. Whereas I think Riverdale has done a better job with talking about like consent. Like we have a consent summit. I heard Steve talk for the first time at the Georgetown Day School Consent Summit in DC. And you know, I was one of four boys there, uh, along with Gabriel. You know, it's like there are 20 girls on that and four boys. I think we can do a bit of a better job um as young men and like trying to hear these these conversations more. And you know, I kind of just went off on a little tangent, but my my next question was gonna be um about like this idea of validation and how you how you prevent like the need for validation as like a boy like the one who laughs at the joke or the one who's telling a joke. Why is that something that's you know so infectious in our society? And and how would you say like what are the ways to prevent that?

SPEAKER_04 27:10

Yeah, I mean that that's like a like I think just humans naturally want to like I guess please other people. Um so you kind of want to have that acceptance of your friends, but I was lucky in the fact that I guess I was always I didn't care necessarily what other people thought of me, except when I was when I was struggling mentally, like with a mental health like struggle, I cared like deeply during those times. Um and I don't know how you get to that point. Um, and I think it takes time and it takes wisdom. But I think like what you're doing, just talking about these issues and trying to be like that better man, or like you hear a kid tell an inappropriate joke, like, you know, I know it's hard to like say, like, hey, like stop or like have a confrontation, but maybe like pull that person aside and be like, come on, man, like this isn't that's not how we want to represent ourselves. And I know that that might be hard to do um as a young person, but like I always think about it now, like you know, as with my sisters or with my I have a daughter, and I'm just like it makes me, I guess it angers me. I I know I I guess I'm saying I get fueled by anger a little bit, but like it angers me when I hear these stories of like sexual assault. It angers me for the woman, but it also angers me for the good guys like Hugh, Steve, and me who like you get lumped in with that. Like you get lumped in as a man sometimes because of the actions of what these other men do. And I even think about it from the perspective of like a teacher. Whenever I see one of these male teachers have an inappropriate relationship with a student, I get like pissed off because I'm like, now, next time I'm talking to a girl in class, like, I don't want people thinking like I am that type of person, or like I don't want to have to be like taking a step back because of what all these other people are doing. Like again, I guess I would say like when you see someone doing something that ref it reflects poorly on you, as bad as it is to say, but uh that's how I look at it. Um I don't know, I guess it's yeah, but it's hard. Like, I don't know as a I I guess I can't picture myself as a young kid. I will just say this though, I feel like things have gotten better in terms of like from when I grew up, but I'm also not seeing like what's going on online, like, but in terms of like in like at least at my school, like inappropriate comments and touching of girls or things like I don't see it like I used to maybe when I was a student, but I also I don't see what goes on like with the phones, and I think that's at least at our school where there's been some trouble, is like the technology and what happens there.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Jim, like exactly what you're explaining, and I and I said this when I uh uh first talked to my high school, was that I I was not anywhere near the person that I am now. I not only didn't stop conversations, I participated in conversations and I leaned into jokes and I got community, uh a negative community, but in that community I got a lot of uh support and validation. So I I don't want to take for granted, Hugh, and and and I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, which is you know, there are factors that make us more or less likely to behave in a certain way. So, Jim, you had your moment that you you were like, okay, I'm hurting. I I I can't keep up the veneer. We need to stop this, we need to have this conversation. For me, it was uh similarly where I realized through Jesse's story that you know a lot of the what I considered to be the little things that you mentioned, Jim, the little things, the little jokes, the things of that nature, they may start little, but they are very impactful and uh they they create a ripple that uh can clearly uh create a lot of damage to both uh uh boys and girls. Uh but Hugh, just to kind of take a little detour on your experience. I know for you and Gabrielle getting to know you a little bit better, your your mom's like like Jim's mom had a profound impact on you know how you view the world. So it's not an accident that you show up at a sexual assault um uh event at a school. It's not an accident that the words that I said or others there uh said resonated with you. And it's not an accident that that you took action and meaningful action of joining the I Have the Right to in this podcast. So uh I just love a little bit about your background that really uh clearly uh put you in a position. You had to make the decisions, but it gave you a lot of information for you to uh to make good decisions.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Yeah, so I mean, you know, I think it was really like uh going to high school and um kind of seeing these uh things happen at like parties um as well. Like um, you know, it was really like the first time with like alcohol involved, I guess, in like eighth and ninth grade, and like um, you know, you'd see like people doing things that like aren't necessarily like you want to step in and say something, but like me as like a a ninth grader knew something was off just kind of morally. Um yet I just didn't really have the power to say anything. Um and uh and so I joined BLB actually not because um not really because of that, but I just had a friend who uh was a senior that year who's definitely like a leader in the community. His name was Harrison, and he um and I knew him from St. Bernard's and I knew his brother who was uh great above me. Um and you know, he said just stop by and see see if you if you like this uh group. Um it he was like it talks a lot about the things that you know St. Bernards didn't mention, and I said, okay. Uh I went and you know, immediately I just really I really enjoyed it, and I started going every week. Um, I started participating more. I was also scared to like say anything with the older kids in that group. Um and you know, admittedly, like some people didn't even take it that seriously, but I felt that I was always pretty committed to the work, and that just developed over the years. And um I kept saying these these things happen and started to to kind of say things because I don't think people realize how often they do happen. I mean, there are all these statistics about sexual assault, but like really seeing it being like an eyewitness to like uh you know, boys really like advancing on girls that that aren't into it. Um you know, that's common. And uh I think seeing that wanting to sign up for that summit, really when I when it really changed was uh the survivor panel. Like I was very impacted by um not only your story, Steve, but everyone. I think Chessie was up there, I remember. Um and then I went to Alex's workshop. I think he was I found him to be a great speaker. Um, and then I connected with I have the right to. And like to be honest with you, it wasn't like one point where I was like, okay, something's wrong. I need to do this. It was more these this tiny buildup of like, like you said, the quote unquote little things that are so just in our society dominate our society and dominate the culture of like men and how men treat women. And you know, I think I've grown into a leader. I hope to carry it to college. Um and uh it's gonna be an interesting shift because I'll be a freshman next year after being going through this whole progression of like leadership over the years. But yeah, I'm excited to continue with this work and to continue um spreading positivity. Um the other thing I was thinking was uh Jim mentioned like the idea of being like lumped in um to like a category. Like um, I know you said like if a teacher does something, then um you feel that like people will judge you in that way. And like it's the same thing, like as a boy. Uh this idea of like toxic masculinity, quote unquote, people say, I think that's very demeaning um actually, and I think it it really discourages people actually from you know facing the problem at hand. Uh so Alex, I think um he might have read it somewhere, but he started saying socially constructed masculinity and uh just realizing that it's these these um this culture is kind of propagated by society rather than like inherent uh you know immoral uh feelings. Um and so I I think um we need to change that as well, just the idea of of discouraging men from these conversations and saying you're toxic, saying oh boys are this, boys will be boys, there's that whole saying. Um and and I think you know uh just the only way is really to have these conversations. Um and this podcast made me realize actually that I could reach voices beyond just my own school, um, which is why I was inspired to do all this. I know I know it was a long story, but I don't know, I feel like I really every step is important to me in that way. Like I just see I'm kind of thinking and I'm thinking to myself, like progressing over the years, I was like a little shorter, I remember, and as I like grew, interestingly, I like had more of a voice, I felt like um, or had more like quote unquote respect in the in the community at school. Um so yeah, I mean I think the only thing I can take away from this is we need to have more conversations, um, and we need to normalize instead of stigmatize uh mental health and aspirational masculinity in men.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Yeah, yeah. And Jim, I'm I I I'd love your response. I mean, one of the things that um one of the many things that resonated with me is that well, you know, a bad apple can poison the well, uh the opposite could happen as well. So, you know, how do we, as you talked about earlier, you know, really work with uh work with these boys to show that you know they can be a they can be a part of the change and they can be what we all want to see and and lead as as challenging as that can be. So I'd love your thoughts on kind of what Hugh was reffing on.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I was thinking about when you were talking, and I've thought about this before, but you know, thinking about like maybe we as educators or teachers, uh particularly men, should be like teaching kids these things, not just like about consent, but like, hey, how this is how you talk to a girl, this is how you ask a girl out, this is how you do these little things that you know maybe the maybe kids aren't getting nowadays. Like I know, even just like at our school, like no one takes anybody, you don't go on a date, like you don't bring a date to a dance. Everybody goes in a group now, and I know that's a small thing, but like learning how to communicate with people, um, learning how to talk to them on the phone as opposed to text messages where things can get obviously misinterpreted. I think there's a lot of little things that could be taught that people don't want to do it because maybe it's crossing that gray area where, like, all right, that's a little too personal. But I think I don't know, I'd rather kind maybe cross that gray area of being a little too personable about things than have something bad happen because it wasn't talked about. Um, you know, even I'm gonna say something that I'm kind of embarrassed to say as it, but like like pornography, like pornography, like I don't know, maybe we should actually talk about like the dangers of that in schools and like having constant access to it and how that might shape what goes on with boys, but it's almost like that gray area where like you can't really talk about it because now it's inappropriate. But again, uh maybe I'd rather have a little bit more of an inappropriate conversation so something bad doesn't happen in the future. And I don't know how you can do that as an individual teacher. I think that needs to be like if people realize, like, hey, we need to start talking about this as a whole. Um, because I do think a lot of those things could be taught. It's just kind of taboo to talk about uh talk about it in a way. I don't know if that makes sense, but I was thinking that as you were talking about, and I was thinking about like having mentors who could talk about those things. I think that would be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Yeah, it really does make sense. And it's it's uh, you know, maybe I'll maybe I'll put you on the spot now, which is you've done it, you've done a great job bringing mental health to places where it wasn't talked about. Uh pornography, the way that it's constructed is extremely damaging to men and women. And when I think about your comment about, you know, uh asking uh uh a girl out or to dance, I think about what happens before that. I think about the relationships that men have with other men. You know, what are they modeling? What are they saying is important such that um it's not about anything, you know, when you're when you're engaging with a relationship with anybody, it shouldn't be about what are other people going to think. You're you're in in that moment, there's a dehumanization of somebody becoming an object that then I'm gonna report back to others and get some social standing. So I I think in combination with what you're saying, even before the outreach, it's let's square about you know what are important in relationships and and how can we as a culture reinforce men with other men that um it's not about any other relationship doesn't you know have anything to do with that that group relationship. So, you know, is and and and and a big part of that is maturity, right? It's it's emotional maturity, it's just um being able to look at things outside of your immediate circle. And uh, you know, part of that is, and and and you talked about it a little bit, is uh you know, this expression of care and emotion. And you know, how how do you what ways do you think that we can pursue at an individual level, at a societal level, to try to uh uh uh better impart those qualities as a positive for in particular boys and men?

SPEAKER_04 43:49

Yeah, I mean, I think one of like expressing, like you said, expressing emotion or like even expressing love. Like sometimes you, you know. I don't know if you ever got like ragged on by your buddies for like I used to have a buddy who at Holy Cross, he used to wait, he used to wait by the phone and wait for me to say I love you to my like what my now wife and like kind of giggle and chuckle and laugh. And like, you know, it would make me I thought it was funny, but it would also make me hesitant to like show emotion about at the time my girlfriend who later became my wife. And I don't know, it's kind of one of the reasons. I don't know if you know, Steve. Like, I do this, my podcast I did with you, but I do one with my wife now. And it's we call it I love you but so it's basically like we say I love you, but then but here's the thing that annoyed me about you today, or let's say whatever, this week. And I don't know, it has been one of the best things to just talk to my wife for like an hour straight and like actually communicate things to her. And like I've been telling people, I'm like, listen, I don't think you need to like record it like me and my wife are doing, but like setting out a time where you are actually talking to your wife, um, and maybe telling your buddies, like, hey, this is a thing that I think actually is helpful. Um, and maybe they they could kind of feed off that and do the same thing with whoever their significant other is. I think kind of showing the value of that, of expressing your emotions to that person. And now for me, like we joke around a lot, like we kind of rag on each other, but that's that's fun too. Like it's a way to establish uh you know a better relationship. And I think it's one of the reasons why we can me and my wife continue to do it now, is because we've like seen people have really related to it, and particularly men have really related to it. Um I think there's there's a there's a like that's more on like a macro scale, but there's more, there's a micro thing there that you I think you can do um at a younger age is like, hey, it it's okay to like express your emotions and actually talk to someone. Um that's that's cool. Like I think that's what everybody aims for in the end. I think um might as well just like talk about it early on and you know not be embarrassed or ashamed of that.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Yeah, I I think that I think that's awesome. And I have listened, and it is it's it is it's great to see you engage. I don't know if you ever look at it afterwards, where um let's just say every once in a while my wife and I might have a different recollection of a conversation. So having that actual evidence of it has got to be pretty enlightening when you when you go down the road of I thought you said and then Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 47:04

No, it's that it has been like one of, you know, because I got four kids. So like we always thought like we're just constantly going. And it has given us like an hour a week where we're like, all right, we are gonna sit and talk, and you know, we'll make some jokes throughout it, and it'll be fun. And um, but it has been like awesome for us. And I I've told Katie, my wife, I'm like, I think we should like have people come and do this, like be like, hey, our friends, you and you come and do this. It'll be like couples therapy, but for a podcast, I I think I really think people could get something out of that.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Also, I was thinking of this as you were saying it, like like you said, like talking to your wife, you know, time to time about these types of things is like very important. And like I was thinking about you know, a lot of people don't really have someone to talk to is the you know, unfortunate reality. Um and you know, I was thinking back to my tenth grade history class where um my teacher made us journal every uh two minutes every class, um, you know, just about the day, not anything related to history. And you know, it really got me in the mindset not only for class, um, you know, dumping everything on the paper, um, but also just the rest of the day. And like, you know, every day I would be writing something, I'd maybe figure something new about myself, I'd notice patterns. Um, and I've actually since journaled, I've journaled since then, um, you know, pretty much every day. I've tried my hardest, at times it's hard, but um, you know, and then writing down a couple things that you're grateful for each day is definitely uh a good um exercise as well that I like to do. Um and I think all these things are super easy. Like it literally takes two minutes every day. Um and like I was just wondering if you had um, you know, for the audience as well, like other daily habits or practices you think are really important or that you could recommend to other people.

SPEAKER_04 49:12

Yeah, I mean, well, you mentioned I don't journal, but I had I had one of my former he's the greatest basketball player I ever coached. He ended up playing at Vermont, uh, two-time player of the year there. And he came on my podcast. His name's Ryan Davis, and you know, he's probably now he's like 24 years old, and he was really struggling at times. And like the mental health advisor on staff at Vermont talked about journaling, and he said that that was so incredibly helpful to him. Like, and he was in like a really dark place, and that's one of the things that got him out of it. Um, I don't I don't do that. One of the things I do do is like the the breathing type things. Um, like I do like box breathing just to kind of like settle my settle myself. Um, that has been very helpful. One of the things for me, and I joke around about this, but like staying hydrated, I think is so important. And I did not realize that. I I never drank water growing up. You can't see me now, Hugh, but I'm like a big dude. I'm like 6'7, so I'm a big, big dude. And um I never I drank a lot of milk, obviously, but I never drank water. And one of the things that they talked about, I was hospitalized um with depression. And they talked about that link between hydration and depression and mental health. Um, and so I've become a religious water drinker. Like I'm always drinking water, and I've just felt like a tremendous benefit just to like my mental clarity. Like, I'm I don't have that brain fog that I used to have. So that's like a daily habit that I'm really big on. Um, another thing as a teacher, I I like I like expressing gratitude. I think that's been very helpful to me. Like, if I saw somebody do something in the past that I thought was cool or awesome, or I saw a kid do something where he reached out and helped a kid who was struggling, I might not have said anything. Like, now I point it out, or now I'll write the kid's parents an email and be like, he doesn't even know I saw this, but I saw him do this, and I really appreciate that. And I think showing gratitude sometimes is one of the best things that you can do. And I I would say that I was I wasn't, it's not all for that person, it's for me too. It makes me feel good when I show gratitude for someone else, um, even if it's just a small thing. And that's something that I try to do, um, you know, maybe not on a daily basis, but like I will like write those positive things home, and it's to help that kid, but it's also to help me.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Yeah, and thank you. Thank you for um all these stories. I think we're running a little low on time, but I I was gonna ask you, uh you know, what message do you hope our listeners take away from hearing your perspective today out of everything, you know, all your stories about your mom, basketball player, handling depression, um, you know, where you are now. What is like the most important thing that people should take away uh moving forward?

SPEAKER_04 52:45

Well, I think you're doing it right now, and I think uh Steve has done it, and this is like what my mom taught me. I I use I I think I've told Steve this, but I use the phrase share selfishly is the phrase that's kind of like my motto, and that doesn't make sense that sounds oxymoronic because sharing and selfish don't make a whole lot of sense. Um, but when I was coaching, I would tell people to be a selfish screener. So when you screen in basketball, that's one of the most unselfish acts that you could do. However, like I know as a basketball player, if I set a good screen, yes, 90% of the reason I'm doing it is to get a teammate open. But 10% is because I get myself open afterwards. Um, so when I coached, I would say be a selfish screener, screen selfishly. And now what I say is share selfishly. Like 90% of the reason why I'm here on this podcast, or why I have my own podcast, or why I go around and talk, it's to help people. Um, but it's also to help myself. And I think we all can do that in some way, and it doesn't have to be about mental health. Like, let's say you've had family who have died, or parents who've gone through a divorce, or you had a learning disability, and like you see someone else going through that, or even like you're at the lunch cafeteria and you see a kid sitting by himself. I'm sure that's happened to you before, where you have been alone. Like, reach out and and you know, share your struggle with that person because I think people connect to that. Like, obviously, as humans, you don't want other people to struggle, but it lets you know that you're not alone. And I think that's helpful to that person, and it's gonna be helpful to you when you help someone else. Um, and that would be my main message that I would take want people to hear and and take away. And it's kind of what when I go and speak, that's like my final message to people.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Yeah, I love that, Jim. Thank yeah, I recall you saying that, and it is so so true that uh another version, I guess, is that uh in giving you also get. It is a it is a it is a actual beautiful human reality. Um so we want to thank you for being on this conversation uh today. Uh very insightful and and powerful. And I'm even more hopeful than when we started that we can develop a healthy and cooperative path forward for all of us, young and old. Young and old. The modeling and the learning does not end when you leave school. It's uh as important or even more important as you go through your career and uh and start a family and uh do all the things that that that that we do over the course of our lives. Uh so before we wrap, we ask all of our guests to complete our our bedrock statement. What is it that you believe best complete completes the following? I have the right to.

SPEAKER_04 56:07

Uh trying for myself, I I think I have you know the right to be myself and stand up for what I believe in. And I have the right to do that even if other people don't necessarily agree or they look down on me for that. If that's part of my code of beliefs that I believe in, I think I have the right to um pursue that.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

That's awesome, and and and and it's clear that from that shy kid, you've uh grown and found a place where you are very comfortable or comfortable seeing me, sharing your voice. Everything isn't as as we see, but we're so grateful that uh you're sharing uh selfishly, unselfishly, and and in every way that you are to help uh help our communities grow stronger. And we're so glad that you reached out and connected with all of us. Your work on yourself, your students, and and again, your willingness to put yourself out there for what's right and for what's going to be helpful for us as individuals and a collective is truly inspiring. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:23

Well, thank you. Like, and again, like I am inspired by the like I had, I don't, I know you're trying to wrap it up, but I had an incident at our school where I had a kid say something inappropriate. This was just like two weeks ago, and I thought about this organization, and I thought about it during my response. And like I went, I did my normal thing where I went after the kid, but then like I also took it a step further. And something that I don't know if I necessarily would have taken it that step further before, but just the fact of like being educated on this more by seeing what you all are doing. Um, in my health class, when we talk about we have we talk about this thing called Aaron's Law, and it's similar to what you're doing, like it kind of made me take that extra step. And I think that's important um to know that what you all are doing um is registering with people, including someone like me. You can teach like an old dog new tricks. Um and you know, it helped me make something that maybe I wouldn't have taken to that next level, and I did, which I think was good, and I think it was the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

That's awesome. And I and I think that is going back to the Ripple effect. The the the beauty of these conversations is we never know who's gonna hear it, who it's gonna touch, and their ability then to amplify this messaging is much more than we can do uh alone. And the other thing is uh I think in some ways, Jim, both you and Hugh got to the fact that if you don't say something, there's a lack of clarity. And in a lot of cases, it defaults to what the speaker said. So unless there is a uh you know a conscious intervention for us to stand up and say, we don't agree, or you should think about this. People are people are people, and they're gonna leave with what they heard and they're gonna assume that everybody agrees. So I think that's a great example, and I'm I'm glad we could help you and uh that student in that situation. Thank you. And and to all of our listeners, thank you for tuning in to Aspire. If today's conversation resonated with you, we encourage you to learn more about the Mailey Way. And Jim, what's the best way to find you?

SPEAKER_04 59:55

Uh there's a website, themaileyway.com, or on uh uh Instagram at the maileway, or you can just email me at the uh themaillyway at gmail.com. Uh, I'm very active on social media. I don't like to be, but I feel like I have to be in order to get this out. So I do it and I feel like it's been helpful. So um feel free to reach out uh whenever.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

I'm just really appreciative to have you here. You know, we've had a couple athletes on, and uh I think it's great because you know, a sports player myself, played hockey and tennis. I think this is just something that like comes up in uh in any sport really. And you know, I'm really happy to have you here, and I think I really resonated um with a lot of what you said. So thank you, Jim. Thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:47

No, thank you. I'm I'm really impressed by you because I could not have done any of this when I was your age. So where are you going to school? I'm going to Yale next year. Oh, okay. Well, there we go. That makes sense now.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

That that's awesome. Congratulations, Hugh. Thank you, Jim. Uh, to all of our listeners, be sure to follow Aspire wherever you listen to podcasts and check out I have the right to for resources, programs, and ways to get involved. And remember, if these conversations inspire you, you can bring them directly to your own community. I have the right to offer developmentally appropriate workshops and keynotes for pre-K through 12 students, college and university communities, as well as workplaces. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time on Aspire.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:40

Thank you so much for listening. Like and subscribe to the podcast on all platforms. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five star rating and tell your friends about Aspire. Follow us on social media at I Have the Right To. Learn more about our student and executive programming at our website at IHATHRight2.org.