E61: Aspire to Build Safe Waters (ft. Julian Bell) - Real Men, Real Conversations

In this episode of Aspire, Steve Peacock and Gabriel Viscogliosi welcome Chief Warrant Officer Julian Bell, a Coast Guard veteran, survivor, advocate, and creator of Sailors Disgrace, for an honest conversation about military sexual assault, masculinity, healing, and the power of speaking out. Julian shares the long path from silence to disclosure, how a single safe conversation helped him begin telling the truth, and how his healing journey ultimately shaped the advocacy work he does today.

The conversation explores the culture of masculinity inside the military, the pressure to stay quiet and “push through,” and how those expectations can make it harder for survivors to seek help. Julian, Steve, and Gabriel also discuss the impact of institutional failure, the importance of community and accountability, and why real change starts by creating safer spaces for younger generations to speak, learn, and lead with empathy.

Julian closes with the message that true strength includes vulnerability, compassion, and the courage to protect others, and that survivors and allies alike can help build a better culture by refusing to stay silent.

For more on Julian’s podcast, follow them on Instagram @Sailors_Disgrace or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

For more information on Julian’s nonprofit Safe Waters, visit them at https://www.safewatersunited.org/

To learn more about I Have The Right To, visit https://ihavetherightto.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome back to the Aspire podcast. I'm Steve Peacock, a board member and proud friend of I Have the Right To. Aspire was created by the nonprofit I Have the Right To as a space for honest, meaningful conversations about survivor advocacy, prevention, aspirational masculinity, mental health, and what it truly takes to create vibrant and safer communities. If these conversations resonate with you and you're interested in bringing them into your school or your community, we'd love to connect. I have the right to partners with K-12 schools, colleges, universities, and workplaces to provide age-appropriate programming for students, educators, parents, employees on consent, healthy relationships, digital safety, leadership, and more. Helping turn these conversations into action. You can reach us at takeaction at IHAFTheRightTo.org.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Today on Real Men Real Conversations, part of the I Have the Right To podcast, we're joined by Chief Warrant Officer Julian Bell, a brave survivor, advocate, and the creator of the podcast Sailor's Disgrace, surviving military sexual assault and navigating the aftermath. Julian has served honorably in the U.S. Coast Guard for over two decades. Through his own journey of survival, heroing, and advocacy, he's become a powerful voice for change within the military, fighting to break the silence around sexual violence, challenge systematic failures, and build a culture grounded in empathy and accountability. His courage in telling his story, first privately and later publicly, has opened doors for countless others to come forward and seek support. Today we'll talk about his journey, the creation of Sailor's Disgrace, the realities of military sexual assault, and what aspirational masculinity looks like through the lens of survivorhood, leadership, and love.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

I had the opportunity to see our guest Julian at a recent high school summit. His story, his bravery, and his resolve to break the status quo, sometimes going up against very powerful forces, is something you won't want to miss. Julian, thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Yeah, thank you for the invitation. Thanks for holding the space and this container. I really do appreciate it. I'm grateful to be here and to not just share my story, but to reach audiences and connect hearts and minds. Um, and to hopefully um create a better environment for those coming up, right? I think that's what this is all about. So thank you for creating the space again. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Abs absolutely. And thank you so much for for joining and sharing your story. I know personally, uh every time there's uh a little part of me that uh gets stronger and a little part of me that kind of connects back to the pain. So, you know, and that applies to everybody in the audience. If there's anybody that uh, you know, is feeling this deeply and they needs to take some pause, please make sure to take care of yourself. So, Julian, uh, if you don't mind, can you share what made you decide it was time to publicly tell your story after so many years of silence? And and I might add, which is extremely common for those who are sexually abused or sexually assaulted.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Yeah, thanks for that, Steve. It was a big decision for me. You know, this was early in 2023, just um three years ago. Um at that point, I had been a survivor for 19 years. Uh, my assault occurred in 2004. Um, it was buried deep inside of me for 12 years until 2016, uh, when I began my healing journey. I uh I had a point where I just kind of had a breakdown, and then I fell into recovery and therapy and group therapy and all this work and all this turmoil, and I was at a good place and I started to feel safe, but I still carried immense guilt and shame, and I wasn't sure what to do with it. So I decided to let it go, right? I decided that if I were to put it out there, you know, and the first step of putting it out there was telling the rest of my family. At that point, only a few people in my close circle knew about what had happened to me. So I had to tell the rest of my family first, you know. Um, and then I said, I want to bring this out into the world. I want to see if others can connect with my story. I know that there's others out there. I can't be alone. Um, and this was, of course, post the Me Too movement. Um, I knew all these different stories of Hollywood and, you know, business people and sports figures, but there was a lot of silence still within the military structure, especially with men survivors or male survivors. And I put it out there, you know, that was it. And I remember I started my podcast, uh, just me sitting on my bed with my phone and talking into it. And that was it. That's that was exactly how it started. Um, and it was very intimate and very sacred to me. And after I put it out there, I just had this feeling of this giant weight falling off my shoulders, finally, right? Um, and that's what it did for me. And I it took me a long time to get to that point and to be ready for it. But once I was there, it was so freeing, you know, um, and so healing in its own right.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

Well, uh 2023, I heard your story, like I said, uh the the school, which you shared with the entire community. And I don't know if I realized that. So in three years, you have done so much for so many after, you know, doing that work on yourself and and putting the you know, the love and care into healing. That is even even I'm even more impressed than I was 10 minutes ago when we started this call. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Thanks, Steve. And thank you so much, Juline, for sharing your story. And I just want to go back to your 19-year-old self when you did join the Coast Guard and what values and dreams did you carry with you when you initially joined the Coast Guard and how have those evolved over time? Maybe recently, has there been any new developments and new changes? And just how has it been a constant change or more spikes up and down? That's uh thanks, Gabriel.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

That's a great question. And when I first joined, um, I turned 19 in basic training, you know, I was very young, about a year out of high school. And my dreams and hopes and the way I felt about the service were very uh altruistic at that point, you know, um, especially with the Coast Guard as a humanitarian service, first and foremost. You know, we're known as lifesavers and defenders of our country. And I was extremely proud to be a part of that, you know, um, especially in boot camp. They do such a great job of drilling that into your head. It's only eight weeks, but boy, you they give it to you, you know, and you come out of that. Most of us come out of that, really just hard charge and ready to go, you know, and just ready to do our first assignment wherever that is. And it's exciting, it's empowering. And especially for a young person as I was, like I said, 19 years old. Um, it was just I I knew I was part of something greater than just myself, right? And within a year, all that fell apart. You know, um, I was put on a ship in San Diego. We call them cutters in the Coast Guard, Coast Guard Cutter, uh, on the naval base in San Diego. And the command I had at that time, the working environment was not supportive of those feelings that I came with from boot camp. It was um extremely toxic, it was extremely harmful. Um and then what happened to me with my assault, of course, completely changed my view. Um I didn't speak out for 12 years, like I already mentioned, and I didn't even speak about it to myself. I didn't recognize what had happened to me. I didn't have a safe space to go. So when I buried it, I also swallowed a lot of that pride and that and that empowerment that I had before. And I became lost. I mean, I I still performed as far as the military was concerned. I still did my job, I still progressed and went through the ranks, but it was not so much a sense of empowerment and pride and service that I had when I first joined, right? Um, and I wasn't really able to find that again for several years, you know. Um I would say a good 10 years until I started to really get into my groove again with the work aspect of it. And then in 2016, when I had my coming out with my story and my healing process, it went down again, right? And it took another four or five years and some major life changes, which we can go into later if we feel. But I started to regain not just that sense of purpose in my service, but sense of purpose in myself, which is definitely linked, right? And here I am now, towards the tail end of my career. I'm actually retiring in about two months. And um not that I feel um ashamed or uh dissatisfied with my service or anything like that, but I'm ready to separate, right? I'm ready to retire and move to the next chapter of my life, and I'm grateful for all the things that have happened and where it's put me. It's been amazing, right? But my like my attitudes towards that service have changed, right? I think they've matured, they've grown into something different, and I've turned my service not into the things that I do for myself or the things I do for my unit, but what I do for others. And what I have done, obviously with my podcast. Um, and something we didn't mention in my bio is I also co-created a nonprofit um called Safe Waters, and that is a huge part of what I do now. Um and essentially what that is, it's a safe space for military survivor, military sexual assault survivors to gather, and we form a community and we grow together and we share together and we struggle together. And it's not just Coast Guard, we actually have all the other branches as well involved. And we've reached people around the globe. And just we launched last year. Uh, it's been 12 months and it's been phenomenal. So, like again, to set you mentioned that what what were all those feelings I went through over 23 years now? It's been intense. It's been a roller coaster, it's been a lot of ups and downs, sideways, backwards, front. It's been everywhere. Um, but where I am now with it, it's it's it's amazing, you know. And it went somewhere I never could have predicted as a young 19-year-old man joining a service uh full of pride and hope about doing good for humanity and good for his country. And now I'm doing it in ways that my goodness, um, I'm so proud and humbled to be a part of. It's it's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

Wow, that is fantastic. And and crash congratulations on your upcoming retirement. And congratulations for safe waters. That is remarkable to, and I'm sure we'll talk about it in a little bit, to be able to take uh your pain, your story, and create something for the benefit of not just the branch you served in, but for the entire military. And uh, you know, just uh to be clear, military, religious organizations, businesses, institutions, families, like it there's no there is no uh what I'll call quote unquote safe space. So for you to create that for people who have gone through something similar is is quite amazing. Um and I want to uh dive in. Um we've mentioned the word masculinity uh a number of times, and obviously that's one of the things that we talk about quite a bit within the organization, and specifically on the Aspire podcast, is you know, when you think about your kind of pre-19 experience with uh masculinity in your formative years, and then when you know you kind of compare that to what you experienced pretty intensely in boot camp and then within your early years in uh in the service, um how would what are some of the things that kind of bubble to the top of your understanding of um you know what what we as b boys and men are are taught to be in terms of uh again, just society and then then within an institution like the military? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

And that's a multi-layered um question, I feel, and that's okay. That's a great one because um, you know, growing up when I did, and I'm 41 years old now, so I was a young boy in the 80s into throughout the 90s, and I joined the service in 2003. Um things were different then than they are now, I feel. And as a father of two young men myself, 13 and 14, I definitely see those changes. So culturally, I feel like we've matured a lot. I'll just say that. But going back to when I where I was in the environment I was in, it was very common to feel the typical tropes about masculinity and manhood, you know, like uh grin and barrett, um, you know, never complain, uh always, you know, stand up for yourself. And I usually meant physically, you know, um, with violence and force. Um, don't take any crap from other people, you know, um just do the job and shut up. Uh, you know, and I and I I kind of fell into that easily when it when I was 19. It made sense. It was it was familiar, right? Um and and and I think it especially within the military, and especially at that time, um there is a space for rigidity, right? There is a space things have to be done, right? Uh especially in the military. We do some very difficult missions, we do some jobs that we put our lives on the line, and they don't allow for second guessing sometimes, right? Um, but you know, with that being said, um, there are laws, there are regulations, there are legal and policy things that the military has that we shall abide by, right? And you have to understand and follow those, um, not just within the sexual assault realm, but within everything that we do. So there are times when we can question or we can stand up. Uh, it's not encouraged, but there are times when we can. So going back again to that 19-year-old Julian and and being in that environment of it was very much just the very tough guy mentality, right? And it was also um very subjective of women. Um, we have at that point, women were still fairly new, looking back on it, fairly new in most of the military as far as positions of either combat or being underway on ships. That was only about 20 years old at that time. Um, women weren't allowed um in the Coast Guard Academy until 1977, I believe, or 78, I can't remember. Um, so that first generation of female sailors and were just still coming up through the ranks. Um, and I remember distinctly when we would have a new female come on board the ship. Um, it was rough for them. Um, it was everybody rated them, you know, said who was going to be the first one to tag that or hit that, or um, it was blatantly obvious from the top on down. Everyone did that, you know, and it was allowed, it was accepted, and it was part of that that masculinity, right? Of of being in power of those people. And um, even the most junior person could try to sleep or have sexual relations with someone that outranked them, and that would put them in a position over them, right? So it was um rife with disaster. It was it really was. And being 19 and being so young and and being thrust into that environment, um, it can it's either like you you um get along or you don't, right? And either play along and you or you don't. And it's like a dog-eat dog type of situation. Um, so most of us just played along, right? Or either just tried not to be the one that got caught up in it, you know, or become a victim of it. Um and unfortunately with me, I became a victim of that, you know. Uh and it is what it is, it's how it happened. Um so I can't remember if there was a second part to that question about where it is now, uh, the masculinity piece.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Yeah, no, I I I I I think you captured it in terms of kind of what you thought going in and then what you experienced. And and it it's always striking to me. And you know, my background is very similar to yours in terms of the uh ten years earlier, but same societal influences, went to an all-boys school. Um, so uh very familiar with the uh with the tenets related to self, I'll say, like as a as a man in relation to other men, which you know we talk about with the high school boys today, and there's still a whole lot of it. And then the second part of it, which is just absolutely horrific and and and tragic, is that oftentimes it does lead to the attempts to uh uh uh as you you said, through objectification and subjugation and sexual assault uh over uh over women. And uh so we'll we'll get into that a little bit. I think that's very important to dive into is as I think about safe spaces. And you know, it sounds like they make up uh women make up a smaller percentage of the the force, but uh I'm gathering from your comments that an overwhelming uh number of the the sexual assault uh victims and survivors. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

And thank you also, Julian, for what you said. And I just want to also want to go that back to the idea of courage and what it takes to speak out. So my father was also a part of the military, and one of the things that he's told me that one of the main things he's learned from it is this idea of the three-foot world and how just kind of keeping things and what's in front of you. And I think there is a lot of good things to think about that, but with this three-foot world, it kind of means what happens, what just happened and what's happened maybe five minutes ago, two days ago, that kind of gets forgotten about, and you kind of just keep pushing on. So I think that also leads to kind of this culture of suppression that often happens in the military. And you are reporting an assault in the military in the military, it takes extraordinary courage. Thank you also so much for doing that. And so, what was that process for you like emotionally, maybe with the culture that was around? And then I think I'd also like to go into kind of the culture is now a little bit later. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Um, so like I mentioned when I when I did report, it was 12 years after the fact. You know, it was um my assault was in 2004. It wasn't until 2016 that I finally um it I wasn't even a strength or courage piece necessarily. And there was courage involved, but it really was a survival. Uh I hit a point mentally um and physically where I I don't think I was gonna make it if I kept going that way, right? Um, there was something inside of me that had to come out. Um my body knew and my and my heart knew and my mind knew. And I'll tell the story of how that happened. I was actually in a leadership conference or training in New London, Connecticut, which is the Coast Guard Academy. And we had a full eight-hour day on sexual assault, right? That was a big topic in 2016. This was post around the time of the Me Too stuff, and everything was just um, you know, uh blowing up, I believe, at that time, as far as the news. So um at the end of that eight-hour day, uh, I went and spoke with the instructor, and her name was Shannon Nornberg. Um, she's a beautiful human being, and I respect and love her very much. And I came up to her and I said, Hey, Shannon, is it okay if I speak with you privately? And she knew right away she could sense. She's like, Absolutely, let's go talk. And she pulled me to this conference room. And this was the first time it ever came out of my mouth. It came into my head, even, you know, and I and I she sat me down and I looked at her and I said, Shannon, 12 years ago when I was on the Coast Guard cutter chase in San Diego, I was drugged and sexually assaulted by three men. And that's when it came out, you know, physically. I I started sobbing, crying, convulsing. I almost vomited. Like it was that that's when it physically started happened to me. And it was just a whirlwind, you know, and the process I knew, and having not just that eight hours of training prior to, but I was already a senior leader in the Coast Guard. I I've I knew all the policy and regulations behind sexual assault and how the program works. So, like, I knew what it was going to entail for me going forward. I knew that there would be a process, like if I reported this and made an unrestricted report. Meaning the investigation would happen, my command would find out. Um, I would have to go to Coast Guard Medical, I would have to get a lawyer, I would have to, you know, uh do all these things. So it was just extremely overwhelming in that moment, especially, but even the subsequent weeks and months following that initial day were gut-wrenching. It was terrifying. Um, and it wasn't just that it happened 12 years ago, you know, it was happening to me in that moment. It really was. And every day I couldn't take a shower after that without crying. I couldn't change into my underwear without crying. I couldn't go go past certain buildings or be alone with men without, you know, panic and fear and going into this investigation and being interviewed and having to pull all this drudge and details out of the recesses of my brain were just it took courage. I see that now, but I was so afraid, you know, so afraid of what would happen with not just the investigation, but what would happen with me and my spouse at the time, what would happen to my son, would I finally have to see a therapist? What would happen? What else am I gonna find out? What you know, like so it was just all this stuff, and it was just so overwhelming, you know. And um I guess the most simple way of saying like what was it like? I think one word would just be terrifying. It was terrifying. Um even with, like I said, all the things that I knew policy-wise, I didn't know what was going to happen to me, you know, as a person. And I felt so alone in that process. I felt, even though I had Shannon and I could speak to her, I was stationed in Houston, Texas at the time. Um, so I would call her in Connecticut and we would talk, but she was the only person I felt safe with. Um, but I didn't have anybody in Texas to talk to. I didn't have any group of people to talk to. I didn't have any community of survivors or people that truly understood what was going on with me. Um, and it was just just uh probably the hardest thing I ever did in my life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

Wow, well, I just want to give that a moment of space. Um you know, one of the things we uh we talk a lot about is that community. Uh in this case, it sounds like that community as oftentimes was an individual Shannon. Um that everybody doesn't have a Shannon. No, you've you you've talked about how you've kind of actioned that and created safe waters, which is phenomenal. Whether you're in the service or whether you're in school or however old you are. Um it is so critical for those listening to be not only you know looking out to be that safe space. But one of the other things we talk about all the time is what do you do when someone approaches you?

SPEAKER_02 25:17

And Shannon sounds like did it right. Oh, she knocked it out of the park. She knows um she's a very kind, beautiful soul, and um her heart was in the work, you know, already. And I think that's why I talked. I think that's what inside of me knew she was the person after 12 years that I could speak to, right? Like there's this innate connection of okay, now's the time. But it took me 12 years to find that.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Wow, and and and and one of the things I talk about a lot personally is is um I was abused by a neighbor maybe 10 years prior to when you were in your in your life, so in in 12 years old, thank you. And um that silence is deafening. That isolation just grows day by day. So, you know, it is hard, it is the hardest thing to actually recognize what was done to you, and then to be able to put voice to that to another human. And where that can go terribly wrong, as it did for me the first time around, uh when I was in my twenties, it can also go extremely well, which is when I was introduced to the the the pouts through social media of all that. Um so I I guess just as a note to again to anyone listening who um you know knows a survivor or is a around other people, just you know, be that beacon. Be that be that beacon and and don't you know make it so it's hard for people to understand, make it like Shannon, make it like the Prouts, put yourself out there like Julian, in a in in a way that people know that they can they can go to you because it's so important for that first conversation, um so that things don't don't shut down again. Um and kind of um you know there's multiple components. So there's individuals and then there's systems, and then there's a an organization or an institution. So as we go and kind of fast forward from you know your great conversations with Shannon, and then ultimately filing the report you had experience like many people do in and outside the military, of uh institutional uh resistance, uh denial, all sorts of attack uh all sorts of tactics to make it very difficult for victims and survivors to get healing and justice. Um I'd love if you don't mind sharing uh a little bit about you know those feelings, which I I have to imagine include betrayal by you know not just the military, but on on on some level given uh the institution you were part of and are a part of your country. So, you know, how did you hold those hold those things and uh you know continue to navigate through to as we talked about earlier, uh working through and staying through retirement, which and then you know, creating you know paths for others beyond that. I mean it's it's it's phenomenal, Joanna. But I'd love you know, I'd love for to kind of take a little peek inside, you know, not just the terrified feelings and the courageous feelings, but really trying to navigate day to day through a mix of, I'm imagining, of emotions.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Wow. Yeah, that's um another great question, and and very multifaceted. So uh I'll do my best to go through that because it was a long journey, right? And and there were many betrayals along the way. There was so much self-doubt and anger, confusion, missteps, um, beautiful moments, uh, friendships that were formed that can never be replaced. So it's just this whole amalgam of everything, right? So, so going back to 2016, um I really kept everything close to myself, right? Like I told Shannon, the investigation was going on, but I was still so afraid of more people finding out about this, of my fellow shipmates, the people I worked with in Houston. You know, I I had just reported to Houston, so I was brand new to that unit, and I was in a position of leadership. So I was like, uh, you know, my guys can't find out about this. And I mean, it was just this all that was wrapped up into it, right? And I met some pretty callous people within the command structure that once they heard, um, as per the report, they had like my commanding officer had to find out, and I went and spoke with one of those senior officers um when I came back from that training in Connecticut uh to let them know that I was safe, you know. Um he quickly made it about himself and um really ignored what had happened to me and when I was didn't even ask what I was really going through. Um, and the same thing with the Coast Guard medical doctors I met with. They basically just prescribed me pills and told me to see a therapist and get back to work. Um so I felt very alone, you know. And I told my wife at the time, and I told my sister, whom I'm um extremely close with, my old my uh sister Jenny. And that was it for a long time. Those were the only people in the world that knew. And um, and my therapist, once I had a therapist, and I was so afraid of that system that I was stuck navigating, right? The investigation that was going on, that that the Coast Guard would harm me again, right? And that if I truly spoke up about what I was going through, I might lose my job. That was another piece, the mental health piece. Yes, I asked for a therapist. Yes, I said I was struggling. And to be honest, now, 10 years later, I was suicidal. Um, I know that. And I and I have written about it in my journal and and I've processed a lot of that and I've forgiven myself. Um, but I couldn't tell the military that. And it's very common. Some of its stigma, and some of it's old stigma, but I was in the old Ghost Guard, so um that people that speak up about these kinds of things, that say that they're suicidal, that say they are at that point in their health will get a medical evaluation. They might go to an intensive outpatient or inpatient for about a month and then they're discharged. Um, I would lose my job. I had a at that time my son was three years old. Um, I couldn't face that. So I did what I always did, and I went back to work, you know. Um so I I I just swallowed that bitter pill yet again, you know, um, and it was poisoning me. It was really harming myself. Um so much so that to the point physically I broke down. I I had cancer in 2018. I um went through a divorce with my ex-wife, and I finally, and I'm cancer free and doing well, but I yeah, thank you. And I rebuilt my life, right? And I got to this point where I got to Sailor's Disgrace, right? And I started sharing my story. And that's more when the institutional side of the Coast Guard started to kick back. Um, once I started being vocal about my story. And we can kind of jump ahead. I guess I'll get to where I am now with this. So and what brought me to this group and to speaking with students and making safe waters, but when I first came out with my story, uh about six months later, the Coast Guard was in hot water politically and on the news, there was a massive cover-up, decades-long cover-up called Operation Fouled Anchor, where the Coast Guard Academy was hiding reports of sexual abuse, sexual assault since women were admitted in the late 70s, all the way till the early 2000s. And there was a big investigation, and the commandant, the head of the Coast Guard at that time, decided not to release the report. Um, it was leaked to CNN and it blew up, right? And when that happened, it connected all the dots for me, right? Why I didn't speak up for so long, why so many people that I was starting to meet through Sailor's Disgrace never spoke up. It's because it was taught at that Coast Guard Academy. They taught leadership. These 18 to 22-year-old young service members, as they're going through the academy, were being assaulted and they were being told not to report it. They were being shown that it was proven. It was men and women being assaulted at the academy and reports not going to Congress as they are required to by law, right? So I saw this systemic injustice and it hurt me, but it illuminated me and it empowered me. And I said, I want to help. And that's when I became a victim advocate with the Coast Guard, which a victim advocate is someone that will, when a report of sexual assault uh happens, that person has the option of having an advocate with them. Pretty much they could they're there to talk them through the process, to be there with their interviews, to be there on a trial, to kind of like the writing buddy, right? Someone that's going to help them out. And I volunteered immediately to do that. When I was in the training for that school, which coincidentally was across the street from the building where I was assaulted in San Diego, um, I connected with the headquarters team responsible for the response to Operation Fouled Anchor, right? So these people were coming up with plans and process review and trying to get ahead of you know what whatever was unfolding politically for the Coast Guard. And I and they said, We hear your story, we want you to share your story with the commandant of the Coast Guard, with the head honcho, right, the person in charge, as well as all the other admirals, all the senior enlisted members, the all the E9s and the E10, right? So these are the senior most staff. I get invited to Washington, DC. I speak and tell and share my truth in that room with several hundred people. Wow. I'm met with handshakes and hugs and congratulations that day. Um and I was invited to record my story to be used in Coast Guard training, right? Um so about a month after that, I went to Alameda, which is San Francisco, with two other survivors, um, and we record our stories. We were told that those stories would be released about a month later, um, for April of 2024, um, for Sexual Assault Awareness Month. Uh, they were never released. Um a memo was floated to us by someone inside that said, quote, basically, that if these stories are released, it will make it seem like there's a sexual assault problem within the Coast Guard, a problem that is only of the past. Um that memo was leaked. Uh, I was then contacted by the OIG, Office of Inspector General for the Department of Homeland Security, and I became a whistleblower. So, and then within a few months, I'm testifying uh at a Senate field hearing with Senator Blumenthal from Connecticut. Um, and then I my name and my story just get out there more and more and more. And the people that are resonating and reaching out to me are mostly survivors. But that top staff, the staff that I mentioned that gave me the hugs and the handshakes and the tears um when I met them at Coast Guard headquarters, no longer talked to me, no longer reached out to me, no longer supported me. Um, in fact, goes to me on many several, several occasions. Um, and I accepted that. And that's part of that systemic thing that you're talking about. And that's part of that issue. And I realized in those moments and where we are today that in order to really fix this, to solve this, to make this better, it's gonna have to start at the ground level. This is starting with the younger generation, not just within the military, but at schools. And this is why, like when I joined up with I Have the Right To, and you guys are like, oh, this is amazing. Like it's exactly like the universe is just like knocking on my door and telling me, like, you know, open this door, it's amazing. So it just makes sense. And that's what I'm doing with the Coast Guard and these people and them and the DOD as well. It's like the people I speak with that it resonates with. It's the junior personnel, it's the people that are young and going, you know what, that was really horrible. What happened to you? Or hey, this happened to my friend. Like, how do I help? What do we what do we do to stop this? What do we do to take care of these people? And then what do we do to stop this? And it's beautiful, right? And I think that's what it's gonna take. And that's what it is taking, in my view. And long, long answer to your question, but it's that systemic trust, that systemic failure, right? It's there, and it's not just military, it's it's colleges, campuses, schools, it's businesses, large corporations, religious um sects, you know, uh organizations, things like that. It's it's everywhere, right? Um but we can all say no more. We can tell our children no more. We can teach, educate, empower and say enough is enough. Let's stop this. So the system is broken. There are issues with the system, but we're gonna fix it from the from the ground up.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

So wow, just thank you so much for sharing, Julian. That's very powerful. And I also just want to talk about safe water and your creation of that and how powerful that's been for you and the other survivors that's came and talked together, but also since it's obviously still happening, sexual assault in the military, and maybe how do you think that real accountability can be taken with a system that's kind of built to cover up things and still does, unfortunately. And how that how can it start by being taught and how will it actually be taught without people just saying yes, it will be, but actually avoiding it, like what happened with the memo that was going to be posted? And how do other survivors who have joined Safe Water have they felt about that topic as well?

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Awesome, thank you. And that's also uh another multifaceted question that I appreciate. It's it's um so to start with safe waters and how that's been received and people's impressions, right? Um, with the systemic side of it. Our our main goal at Safe Waters really is just survivorship, and we really do focus on the person or group and uh community and people and how they're doing um on a day-to-day basis. What are their goals? How are they, how are they healing, what do they need? That's the main focus. We we do couple with other organizations and people um that are really more focused on the um institutional change as far as regulatory or process. And we are also there to support that. And we've actually offered our services to senior level staff within these programs because we can see policy changes that would help these things that you're talking about, that would shed light on the things that are being swept under the rug, like really removing the barriers to reporting, the barriers not just for survivors of reporting, but of commands making proper notifications and documenting this stuff to Congress when it happens, right? And that's what hasn't been happening for so long. So there are ways. Um Safe Waters isn't necessarily attached to that aspect of it, but me personally, absolutely. Um, and I think the way we do that is policy review, right? There and there are good policies. There are things that have happened. Um, they have more bystander training, they have um very clear policy in schools and courses that they send leadership to where they talk about and they discuss these things. And those are positive. Um, but they're very, how do I say this? They're they're meant to still protect the service, right? It's still about image, it's still about accountability for the service, right? And it's it there's a lot of deflection there. So for example, um, our investigations are handled internally. So when a sexual assault case happens, it's handled by the internal, we call it Coast Guard Investigative Services. They work for Coast Guard commands, they work, they have a boss that's in that chain of command, that's in that structure, that things can be can break down, right? And there are conflicts of interest there. That's one thing that I really purported and spoke up when I was um speaking with Senator Blumenthal, and he's on the um House Committee for Permanent Sub um subcommittee for um investigations for all this. And that's one thing I said is like we need third-party investigation, 100% um military-wide, at like all stop, you know, because the same thing for the Navy, it's the same thing for the army. It's uh, you know, it just doesn't work for something like this. Um, does do those investigators have a role in certain things? Yeah, I think there are missions that they can accomplish, but this just is not one of them. It's something that clearly has been failing, clearly hasn't worked. It's a system designed to protect the bosses, right? And protect the image. So that's a big piece for me. That's something that can clearly change. And it's hard when I think you mentioned like how do survivors feel comfortable knowing all this, right? And what are their thoughts on it? And I feel I hear and see a lot of frustration. Um, and I was there myself with my own case, which I mean and talked about how that turned out, but it was not good. Uh and you know, my investigation was reopened in 2024 when I went and spoke at the Coast Guard headquarters, and it was a sham. They they flubbed it, you know, and then they turned the investigation on me and started investigating me for an unrelated hazing incident that I had nothing to do with from 20 years ago, you know. So, like and that's very common too, where the The survivor of the assault will become a subject of investigation for something else. You know, that's happened in the past many times. But there are now policies in place to help prevent that. They're not all-encompassing, but they're still pretty good. For example, if someone was assaulted and they were drinking underage when that happened, the Coast Guard is and the DOD, they're no longer allowed to charge that person with underage drinking. Um that would happen frequently. You know, um, this sexual assault charge might go away because there's not enough evidence or the case falls apart, but you're busted for drinking underage and now you're going to get discharged. You know, it's like that happened a lot in the past. So that's that's the that's something that has been pushed by advocates over the years, right? It took a long time to get that, but now we have that. So we do have victories along the way. And that's what I tell people is like there are changes happening. It may not be as fast or as complete that we hope and we want to see for ourselves and for our future shipmates and and military members, but it's incremental change, right? And it is happening, and there are small victories along the way, and we should hold on to those, be proud of those, and keep going.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

Yeah, there's there's just so much Jollian in what what what you're sharing that uh you know, we could do a multi-part series. I mean, just on a number of the topics, it it it still astounds me to the day, to this day, around you know, the idea of a cover-up. Like sexual assault is prevalent in our society. One in four girls, one in estimates six to ten, we really don't know with men because reporting um not that it's fantastic on the uh uh for women just because of all of the downsides that come with it, but uh reporting for men has other types of stigma, and I'm sure the rates are uh, you know, known my own case are and yours, what you've said, that that are a lot lower than what's reported, but say one to six to one to ten men. So this is happening. This is happening everywhere. It's happening in your churches, it's happening in the in the military, it's happening in your businesses, it's happening uh, you know, in your Hub Scout groups, your whatever happened. If anybody feels particularly offended because I didn't list an organization, please know that it is included. Um so the idea that, you know, when brave people stand up and report and uh you know, I I think we've done a lot in our society to uh favor progress and advancement that the term whistleblowers somehow become negative as is the context of an organiz uh an organization trying to stifle uh reporting victim and and survivors. So I just don't understand why these people continue to make uh not just errors in judgment. This is intentional, horrific denial of people's rights. Like and we are obviously within I have the right to, you know, very strongly uh proponents of your rights to your own bodily autonomy, to your physical safety, to your emotional safety. Um but it just is uh as an aside, the fact that if you are listening and you are responsible for an organization, I can guarantee you that the results of reporting, handling in a professional manner and getting to the facts and releasing and transparency, you're gonna be far better off than bearing something and have a memo come out and have um you know additional sets of eyes and and great reporting has been done over the years and whistleblowers are fundamental to this to bring things to light. You're gonna be better off. Um but as I think about um as I think about kind of going back to the masculinity, we've talked a lot about you know a little bit of our own experiences with masculinity, the good, the bad, and and and the ugly. Um one of the things that I love your thoughts on is allyship and in particular men's allyship, because we've all heard the examples and you and it and it was done to you too. It was done to you that it's of multiple men, it's men in groups. No, not all men in groups are bad. Not what I'm saying. Uh, but we do have a number, you know, countless stories of men in groups doing horrible things. You know, just imagine, you know, more of the opposite. So, you know, would would just love your thoughts on on that male allyship. How do we how do we kind of transform our society to uh to really work together to help not only protect other people, which is paramount, but to protect each other. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Yeah, and I I love that because I'm finding that obviously through safe waters, um, through Sailor's Disgrace, a lot of the men I'm trying to reach and gather as survivors, it's I'm finding it very difficult. And understandably so. I don't judge any male survivor, any survivor at all for not wanting to come out or not feeling comfortable being part of a group. Um, completely and totally understand it. Like I 15 years ago, 10 years ago, I wouldn't want anything to do with it, right? Um, however, I will say that creating those spaces and knowing that they're there. Um, you know, to think about where I was 2016 when I came out with my, you know, story with Shannon and had nowhere to go, nowhere to turn, nowhere safe within the military, nowhere safe even within my own family that I felt could truly embrace me, uh, especially amongst men, um, was so sad. I look back on that, right? And creating that space now and seeing how that works. And I'm also joining men's groups here in California that aren't even survivor-based, but just men. You know, we talk about consciousness and masculinity, which is very much in a line with what we're talking about, and being open with your emotions and being able to, you know, express yourself and cry and and just get it all out there and work together and and be safe in that container is transformative. It's it's it really is it's so powerful when we put men together that truly care, care about themselves and care about each other and care about what they do once they leave that circle, once they leave that space. You know, it's not just sitting on this podcast talking to you wonderful men. It's it's going out there and living this and and showing it to our set our sons and our fathers and our siblings and friends and football players and like the whole gamut, right? It's it it just it's it's it you take it from inside that container and you you harness it, you nurture it, you watch it grow, and then you bring it out to the world. And I think any survivor and any allies or survivors hearing that, like just know that you are capable of doing that. Um there are ways to do that. You can contact us, you can, you know, um follow what you feel is best and just trust your instincts and really tune in to what it means to be man and be masculine and be strong and powerful and open and empathetic and loving and kind and gentle, and at the same time, you know, being able to express that in a group and knowing that you're not alone in any of this. And little spoiler alert, none of it is new either, right? Men have been doing this for centuries, eons, you know. Like, uh, I think we've lost our way over time um in many ways, but it's all in us. We all have that power within us and that ability to truly become what we are uh as men. Um and it's a beautiful journey. It really, truly is. And um, I think this is one of those spaces where we're fostering that, right? And we're going out and talking about that. And especially Gabriel being so young, like I'm so proud that you're here, you know. Um, it amazes me meeting young men such as yourself that care, that are so open. I'll just give you a little shot in the arm. And like like being in your seat where I was at 18, like I couldn't have this conversation. You know, I wouldn't have felt comfortable, and maybe it is showing some discomfort with you, and that's fine. But there was there's no way, you know. But I and I see like your generation stepping up to the plate, and you guys are gonna be taking our place eventually, right? And I and I'm so inspired by that. Like, and I and I think we just continue that, right? And it's gonna attract the people it attracts, it's gonna shine that light, it's gonna bring it all in, right? And it takes time, but it takes patience and it takes strength. And that's what men do have real strength, you know, not just physical strength and brawn and being all that stuff. It's the real fortitude to step forward and say, you know what, I got this. Or if I don't got this, I know who I can talk to. I can I can break down, I can ask for help. That's okay, you know, and uh and I oh, I see something bad happening over here. Uh someone got hurt. I can help them or I can get help for them. We don't have to tolerate sexual assault in this case. Like, my God, that's that's horrible and wrong. Let's stand up, you know, and that's what it's about. Uh so I I love that question. Thanks, Steve.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

And thank you also, Julian, so much, especially what you said at the end. And thank you for that side comment. And actually, what you were saying is just what I was actually about to ask you, especially about this kind of new younger generation of men, including myself, because I feel like we are really the generation that can really kind of fuel this change because we're gonna be alive for the next 50, 70 years, whatever. So that's the new generation that can actually fuel a change. And you mentioned yourself that you have two young boys, 13 and 14. And I think often young men are not really taught kind of to lean into this aspirational masculinity. But I would ask you, how have you maybe made it clear for your kids kind of how whole masculinity can really be and how it is kind of focusing on all of your emotions? And then my final question also would be about this generation and what gives you hope about the future generation. I know you talked about it more, but it's unfortunately I have talked to some people and they're not as receptive. There are some my friends who still are receptive, but it's not as smooth of that as I would like it to be.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

No, great. And there's gonna be resistance, right? And these are old tropes, these are old ideas that um have been around for a while as far as like the toxic masculinity or things that are harmful, right? Harmful masculinity. And it's gonna be resistance. There's gonna be a fight against it. There's gonna be people like, hey, I'm comfortable like this. This is how I was taught, this is what I know. And coming from there myself, right? When I was younger, like that's how I was taught, that's what I knew. And it was hard to change. It was hard to truly listen to my myself and listen to others and be fully empathetic. Like it takes it takes some real courage to step out of that and into that. Um, so have patience with those people, right? Um that that'd be my word of advice to the young generation. Like, have some patience, have some understanding that um what you're doing is right, what you're doing is good, and just keep keep pushing, right? And and form those bonds, form those, those ones that are maybe a little hesitant. It's gonna take them a little bit to get there. That's okay. And then there's gonna be others that are just like locked, lock and step on board exactly what you want to do, and that's great. And just form those tribes and keep that going, you know, just keep that push, keep that drive. So um I that's what I think would be uh the way forward with that. You also mentioned like how that relates to my children, right? How I've seen that and created that space for them. Um, it's been wonderful, right? It's been met with some resistance too, because they're influenced by so much by other kids at school and trying to look cool, especially at 13 and 14. I know you remember it wasn't that long ago for you, Gabriel, but like that's an awkward age, right? And you're you're trying to like have the coolest clothes and the best shoes, and you're starting to notice girls, and and that's something that we really talk a lot about is even when they were 10 and 11, uh, they started to notice girls. And we talked about consent, like off the bat, you know, just touching or holding hands or asking them for, you know, like whatever, like like it's like 100% was the first thing was like consent, respect, consent, respect. Like they got sick of hearing it, but we we just kept talking. And that's the other thing is persistence in in a loving way, not not in a in a way that you're demeaning people or putting them down. This is like, hey, this is this is how you handle that situation, you know, like you really like this girl, that's great. But you know, how do you talk to her? How do you approach things like if you want to kiss her, like if she wants to kiss you, like what are you comfortable with? What is she comfortable with? I don't know. Um, so like having those conversations early and often as a parent. Um, for me, that's something I certainly never had. Um, I had one conversation about sex with my father, and it was not good uh when I was about 17 or 16. Um, and that was it, right? So, like for us, so it's it's a constant thing. Uh, anytime it comes up, we just go, all right, guys, let's talk about this. And they, oh, it's cringe and this and that, and it's awkward sometimes for them, but you know what? It's they're not gonna forget it. And it's something that's gonna, like I say, you're planting those little seeds and it's growing. So that's what I see with going to schools like you guys and and visiting these these younger men and women and and seeing those seeds being planted. That's what gives me the hope, right? And it's not just the schools I visit, but it's also the things I see on social media or whatever. Like there's a lot of negative things on social media, of course. Um, but I see so much positivity. I see so much emotional maturity and and uh curiosity from this younger generation um that people are so comfortable with saying, like, I'm not, I'm not comfortable with that. I hear that so much from like a 15-year-old or a 16-year-old, that just blows me away. Um, or if you watch a movie from the 80s and 90s, Steve can vouch for it. It was always about, you know, it was never that. Like, I can't think of any movies where they're like that. It was always made fun of, or the, you know, they called that kid a nerd or something worse, you know. Like that's that was the stigma that was attached was being o emotionally open and honest with yourself. Um, and that's changing. And that's what I see. And that's it's those little seeds, those little things that are happening, and some of them are very big and already blossoming. That's beautiful and amazing. Um so I I that's that's the hope that I see, you know, and I see with my own children, even when they struggle, even when they still say things that are um a little bit less uh what should I say, um positive, you know, and I gently correct them and and you know, we move on, we learn, and that's the thing. It's it's it's having that that understanding of not everything's perfect. You're not gonna get it right the first time, maybe not even the second time or the third time, but it's something that you're gonna grow into and and understanding that for your your own culture, your own tribe, your own people, and just keep keep nourishing that, keep growing that, and and we're gonna see where it goes.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:14

That's awesome. It you know, as I think about it in one word, uh, which is conversation, just like we're having today. And silence is not the answer. Silence does not allow us to build community, it does not uh uh allow us to share what's really going on in our lives, and it really limits and impedes our ability to learn and grow. So really want to thank you for having you here today. I'm gonna ask you one final question that we ask everybody uh in keeping with our namesake, and that is how would you complete the following that I have the right to?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:56

I have the right to truly trust myself and speak out for myself. That's what I was saying with unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:11

So much of the community of abuse is built on people taking advantage of us or oppressing and being strong as individuals and believing in ourselves and what's right and wrong, and part of that's knowing that we're all we're we're only on this earth once. So as a child, we don't know what we need we don't know. So that's where the parenting and the school conversations that all come in to help us build a good foundation so that we have the knowledge to be able to carry ourselves in in the world safely for ourselves and for others. So I I I love that, Julianne. And uh, you know, this has been an awesome conversation. We're holding a lot of gratitude to you for coming on the show, for sharing, for um not only uh having the courage, as we talked about, to risk uh your job, your livelihood, to uh potentially have a uh you know, a negative mark from your country. Like to stand up to that, to heal, you should have tremendous trust in yourself. I have tremendous trust in you. We have tremendous trust in you. And and and we really are so grateful that you've joined you know, on some level this organization in helping hopefully build communities that are a lot safer. And that if something does happen, which we all know it will, that it minimizes the time between the assault and the care. And um with that, um hand it over to you, uh Gabrielle, to say your uh final notes.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

Yeah, well, just wow. I think that was just an amazing podcast. And I just want to say thank you so much, Julian, for sharing your story and for being a part of this podcast of us and for all the really truly unfortunate and awful things that you've gone through, but also all of the growth that you've experienced and you've talked about on this podcast. I think it's something that all of our listeners can truly truly learn from, even if they are a survivor or not, or to be an ally, and I think it's just one podcast that everyone should please please listen to. And if especially if this episode resonated with you, we would invite you to share it, to continue this conversation and support. And you can also learn more about Julian's work and his podcast, Sailor's Disgrace, which is gonna be linked in the show notes. And additionally, if there is any military members listening or just any survivors in general and would love to be and join Safewater, we would love for you to then find that community. So thank you so much, Julian, and and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning into this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:10

Great. Yeah, so until next time, keep aspiring towards change, and remember, you have the right to be heard.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Thank you so much for listening. Like and subscribe to the podcasts on all platforms, and if you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five-star rating and tell your friends about Aspire. Follow us on social media at I Have the Right To. Learn more about our student and executive programming at our website at ihatheright2.org.