E67: Aspire to Be Honest (ft. Jon McLeod) - Real Men, Real Conversations

This week’s episode of Aspire is a conversation about mental health, masculinity, and the power of asking better questions. Hosts Steve Peacock and Alex Prout, joined by student co-hosts Gabriel and Ryan, welcome Jon McLeod to the round table. Jon is an ESPN producer and mental health advocate who works at the intersection of sports, storytelling, and emotional well-being.

Jon shares how his upbringing in Brooklyn, his family’s values, and the pressures of traditional masculinity shaped his career and his understanding of burnout, self-worth, and vulnerability. He explains how many men are taught to push feelings aside, but that real strength comes from honesty, self-awareness, and the courage to speak about what is happening underneath the surface. He also discusses how his work in sports and media led him to see how many people are silently struggling and how often a simple conversation can change that.

A major theme of the episode is the importance of curiosity, trust, and asking questions without assumption. Jon tells a powerful story about challenging another man to tell the truth about his grief, which opened the door for vulnerability and healing among a group of men who had been suffering in silence. The conversation closes with reflections from the hosts on ripple effects, leadership, and the importance of creating safe spaces where men can be honest and emotionally supportive of one another.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to Aspire, an I Have the Right To podcast, where we amplify voices, share stories, and drive change in the fight against sexual assault. We explore the critical issues surrounding student safety, institutional accountability, and survivor empowerment. In every episode, our goal is to provide insightful conversations with survivors, experts, educators, and advocates, giving you, our listener, valuable information, resources, and actionable steps to create safer environments and cultivate the culture of respect and consent.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Welcome back to the Aspire podcast. I'm Steve Peacock, a board member of I Have the Right To, and I'm here with my co-hosts, Alex Prout, a co-founder of I Have the Right To, and our student leaders, Ryan and Gabriel. Aspire was created by the nonprofit I Have the Right To as a space for honest, meaningful conversations about survivor advocacy, prevention, and what it truly takes to create safer communities. If these conversations resonate with you and you're interested in bringing them into your school or community, we'd love to connect. I have the right to partners with K-12 schools, colleges, universities, and workplaces to provide age-appropriate programming for students, educators, parents, and employees on consent, healthy relationships, digital safety, leadership, and more. Helping turn these conversations into action. You can reach us at takeaction at IHATHRight2.org.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Today on I Have the Right to, Real Men, Real Conversations, we're honored to welcome our guest, John McLeod, a producer at ESPN and a member of their mental health team. John works at the intersection of sports, storytelling, and mental health advocacy, helping to bring forward conversations that challenge stigma and support emotional well-being, especially in high-pressure environments like athletics. We're excited to talk with him about his journey, the role media plays in shaping how we understand mental health, and what it means to redefine masculinity in a way that makes space vulnerability, connection, and growth. Let's start off by could you tell us a bit about your journey and career?

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Well, Ryan, first of all, thank you all for allowing me to be a part of this fantastic conversation. I've been blessed to know Steve and just his passion behind the conversation when it comes to men and having this intricate, you know, vulnerable but truthful conversation that others can hear. It's just so powerful. And I am very uh encouraged uh by not just your podcast, but the mission and how you all continue to push this conversation that needs to be, it needs to be everywhere. So I'm I'm hoping that tons of people hear this. When it comes to my career, I have I have been in the game. I say this, you'll hear a lot of uh sports phrases of things. I've been in sports my whole life, but um, I've been in the game being a producer almost 20 years. Um uh 10 plus years at my current employer, and prior to that for the New York Times and for other spaces, MSG and the and different things like that. And it hasn't always been easy. I'm from Brooklyn, New York, and and not the nice parts of Brooklyn, New York, I love to say. Um, you're not taking a vacation to where I grew up. And so there comes with a level of understanding about how a boy and a man is supposed to be. And there was no room for any of the vulnerability or time to talk about how you feel or things like that. And that translated into a mentality that had me develop this commitment to excellence. My parents always instilled a commitment to excellence. So throughout my career, my environment and neighborhood taught me to work harder than anything that you've ever seen. And my family taught me to love God with all your heart and love people, regardless of where they are and who they are, and give everything you got to what you have and what's in front of you. Tomorrow is in promise, but today is, and today is here. So, what can you do with that? Um, and so I took that mentality and I worked incredibly hard. I trained and did my absolute best to master my craft. And one thing that happened is I realized that in doing that, what they don't tell you is that burnout is inevitable. And as a as a man, as as a as a young, you're supposed to do this and you're supposed to go here and provide and do all those things, and there's some honor in that. But there is more honor, in my opinion, in realizing that you might be at your wit's end and knowing how to deal with that. And where I grew up, I realized after I I got, you know, caught on to the game around me of like how to actually deal with your emotions as a man, that there are generations of men in the workplace, outside of the workplace, that have yet to understand how to deal with it. The way we deal with it is I'm gonna go play ball, I'm gonna go work out, you know, I may get into a fight, I'm, you know, I may argue and yell and scream, I'll do something tough and get the energy out because if I exhaust myself, then I can't feel this way. And that doesn't address anything, really, when you think about it. It gives you a temporary fix. And that's the temporary fix that I was cycling in and out throughout my career. And while the work ethic, the focus, and the love for God really kept me going and kept me alive, it still was insignificant to the real solution, which was at some point, you have to talk about what's going on in your head. You have to talk about how you feel. You have to talk about why you don't like yourself as much as you should. You have to talk about why, because you don't really like yourself, you're not that good at self-care. But you're very good, if I'm speaking to myself, at helping others get that. You're very good at helping others achieve that. And so this constant fight and battle for if I can just help somebody else, I'll feel a little bit better. If I can help somebody else get through, I can fix it, I can get this, if I can help my organization, I can get this promotion and I can make this much more money to do this for my family, and it will be worth something. And you realize that it's not. You can make all the money in the world and still miss it. And so, over the course of the years of learning how to produce video, shoot, edit, build stories, I ended up telling hundreds of stories about people from all walks of life, and very few of them I noticed ever really dealt with how to deal with the tough things in life mentally without a traditional avenue. I go to the uh I go to the gym or I go for a run, I go for a walk. And there's nothing wrong with those things. I do a version of some of those things, but I realized that there was a communication issue the further I got and the higher you go, because the higher the responsibilities go, I started to see the less time they give themselves to heal and to deal with things. So that my course of my journey of my career has been up, down, left, right, diagonal, and all over the place. But I learned some things that just changed my life, like meeting Steve, for example, and having the conversation that we did for disability and and what and that, I can't tell you how many people reached out and just said, I kind of never thought a conversation like that would happen. And so when you look at how our career is supposed to be, and then look at how it actually panned out and why, you realize there's some very intricate details. And if I could go back, I'd probably change some things, but I live with no regrets, so I probably wouldn't do it anyway, but I could if I wanted to. Hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Thank you so much for all of that, John. I really do appreciate that. And I especially I just want to touch on what you're kind of saying at the end with having, because obviously you're on the production side at your career employer and kind of you're doing the storytelling. And I think it is very important and often I feel like there's just this narrative of stories that get told. But then when you tell one strand narrative, then all the other narratives just get kind of erased. But with those harder conversations that you have with people and you try to kind of poke at, but oftentimes I feel like they just fall apart because and I feel like I've had this as well when I'm trying to have conversations with peers, maybe try to reach a harder topic, but then you keep trying, but it always kind of falls short because there's some kind of disconnect. And I would ask you, maybe for just our audience members, even for me, uh myself, how when you reach that point of disconnect, how are you able to really take that step further and actually get those parts where you're able to kind of get that information out of people to really build those deep connections instead of actually kind of stopping there, then retreating, but actually continue to go forward?

SPEAKER_04 9:35

Excellent question, Gabriel. The answer is always the question. Not the question, but a question. To every single thing that we're looking for, you must ask a series of questions that get you to what you're looking for. The problem continues to persist when we do not ask the right questions to get us to an answer. And what we do is because of fear, sometimes we have a fear of getting the answer that we're that we really want. And sometimes there's a fear of, you know, maybe I won't get it and I'll never get it. And we leave, and because of that fear, we don't ask questions, we make assumptions. And it's so very easy to make an assumption that you understand that colleague or that person or friend or brother and say, like, uh, I know what they mean. I've known them for this, such and such a time. Well, in the moment they did this, so it must mean that they and you assume and they make the make the mistake of making a judgment call without context or information. The number one thing I always do is ask questions. Hey, I saw that when I said that, you got uncomfortable, you shifted a bit. Did something I say trigger something? And then you wait. And you leave it up to them to make the decision on how much of the truth they want to tell you. In best case scenario, they say, Yeah, I'm a little uncomfortable because this happened, or it sounds like you mean this. And what that does is give you an opportunity to clarify. Actually, I don't mean that. I actually mean this. And it goes, okay, you know, and then you can follow up to get further context, which will strengthen your relationship with this person and say, Can I ask why that triggered you? Did something happen? And you give them the opportunity to give you more information. But we often move in this fast-paced world that we start to pull away things that we feel are unnecessary and we make assumptions to speed up time, and that often adds more time in the back end. Because if you had just asked the question, we could have might, we might have clarified that and gone further faster. But because we feel we don't have the time to do it, or it might be time consuming, we assume, we make a decision, and we take action, we justify that and we move on. If we get it wrong, we justify why we do it, or we explain why, but never address what happened to fix it. So when there's a disconnect, I ask questions not to defend or to fight, but to understand. Now, I want to give you this and say that it is a lot harder to do that when you are emotionally attached in a direction. They said something, they did something, they are, they have been behaving a certain way for a long period of time. They may have said something rude or disrespectful because they are going through something and they threw it at you. And in your mind, you will justify your right to retaliate and to say something and to defend yourself. And it takes a lot of strength to ask the question. And I had to, and I have practiced doing this because on the roller coaster of my career, business life, and and you know, all those things, you meet a lot of people. And everybody is not where you where they portray or where they're giving off that they currently are. When you meet somebody in a networking event, they are geographically and physically there, but their mind could be in four different locations. They might be anxious because they don't feel they belong, imposter syndrome. They might be depressed and they feel like this is the last event that I'm going to try before I quit. And there's so many things that, and you have to literally, you're walking up, and they're not showing you that. What they're showing is, hi, my name is what's your name? Where do you work? What do you do? And they're there showing up, and you are left with just what they present you. So I understand that it's difficult, but it's about asking those questions without assumption. And then what you end up with ultimately is a powerful relationship in the end or not. And sometimes you gotta be okay with not having it.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

John, uh, my your wisdom continues to amaze me. Um and it's and just for the for the audience, as John alluded to before, we had the opportunity to meet in a in a work context. And uh, John, the care you showed in our conversation around my healing journey um was just so refreshing and thoughtful and caring. Uh, made me feel seen, and it made me feel like I should be in that position telling my story. And then we went on to do uh a webinar, and you and I had a chance to meet. And uh I'll take one little minor diversion and then come back to the question, which is uh on my journey, I've I've had a number of people to help me because I grew up very much like the other men that you referred to who uh practice uh a lot of different, uh, whether it's misogyny or various learned uh behaviors, social reconstruction, constructed masculinity. And it it really took me, you know, to get knocked in the right direction a couple of times, once in in college by a wonderful professor who opened up my uh mind. And then uh there have been others along the way, but one of them is here with us today, Alex Prout, who, with his uh incredible strength and advocacy for his daughter and then for survivors and men beyond that, has really uh enlightened me and uh put me on a path that I'm really proud of. And I know when you and I had a conversation, you had a couple of folks in your experience when when you were younger. And I think I think it's that these are important to share because when I sit there and hear you, I'm like, and I heard Alex for the first time, I'm like, holy cow, I'm not that. How do I, you know, I can't be that. So uh I'd love to hear in in your journey what really inspired you and motivated you to become the wonderful man and father you are.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

First of all, Steve, I I graciously appreciate your kind words. I I have to give you a flower in return. You were one of the few men that I have heard uh be vulnerable in that way. And it inspired me beyond your comprehension or ability at this moment, because you haven't heard me say it until this moment. It's inspired me so much that I shared it and started looking like into it and started asking different questions. And I found that so many men suffered in silence, and they could not believe that a man would stand up and and and say that. And I I had some to answer your question, some uh history with dealing with with men in different like places. So for example, I'm in the community a lot talking to guys. I try to go back to where I'm from and have the conversation because no man had it like that. My parents, my dad was the guy that I I speak to a lot. And but when you go outside the home, then the neighborhood, there's not many, there's there was no one. And so uh there uh there are generations of men that have been taught to behave a certain way because that's acceptable. And if we see any other version of that, we don't like it and we don't want to see it. And one man in particular that changed my life and it happened um I over I learned this over over COVID, and he is somebody who's been incarcerated multiple times, was in gang life, and a lot of people were afraid of him. And this, and rightfully so, this individual, I I do a lot of calisthenics. I work out in the park a lot. And one thing that a lot of people know about working with, if you're gonna work out with me, I'm gonna talk and I'm gonna talk about two things. I'm gonna talk, I'm gonna talk about being life getting better, I'm gonna talk about God, maybe three things, and we're gonna have a conversation about mental health and and psychologically fortifying your mind to deal with it. That's that's who I am. We're in the middle of a push-up, that's exactly you're gonna hear it. And if you if you can't take it, uh I that is very unfortunate. I'm still going to do it. And so when uh this particular day happened, this individual who was a leader of men and very feared, uh, found it he was he was going through something emotionally, and we were on a walk because part of the workout was to do a certain number of reps and then walk around the whole park. And we did that for about an hour, a few hours. And on one particular lap, I noticed that he was just, you could see the emotional struggle. And I said to him, I said, I said, hey, OG, what's going on there? You don't you don't seem and you don't. And I watched a man fight with himself about like I cannot talk about this because I'm gonna get ridiculed and destroyed, but I can no longer hold this in. And on this lap, and I said, Can I ask you a question mentally? Where are you? Immediate reaction, my mind is great. I'm great. And I said, and you're lying to who? I know you. And he goes, he was like, No, I'm not lying. I said, What happened this week? And he was like, Man, I'm just a little off. Breast frame was shot and killed. And I and I said, Okay, that's that's not something you work out and work off. How are you like you gotta feel a certain way? How are you feeling? I'm good, I'm I'm good, I'm good. And I said, No, you're not. And now this is an individual that is used to no one challenging him. Rightfully so. And everyone is a they they say yes and they immediately submit and and obey. I am not that person. And he knew that. So he knew what chance he was taking with me as much as I knew what chance I was taking with him. And so he started to get very angry because the questions that I kept asking, like, how does losing your best friend, how do you move forward? How do you move forward emotionally and mentally? And he didn't like him and he didn't have an answer. Well, he had the answer, but he was holding on to it so tight it it really aggravated him. And when T I kept hammering him with questions because I could see that the the release was so close, and he just didn't feel safe. And when I realized, I said, okay, he's he's not feeling safe, I'm gonna leave him alone. I just stayed in silence. We finished the walk, we started another round of uh reps, push-ups, and pull-ups. Went for we started the second walk again, and on I didn't say anything. He just turned to me and he goes, How am I supposed to live? How am I supposed to continue? How are we supposed to keep doing this? And I didn't say anything, I just stared at him and he goes, I just can't. This hurt. I have to get them back. And I was like, No, you don't. No, you don't. What you who you what you need to get back is your peace, and that's gonna take time. You don't know, you don't understand, you don't know, like, you know, those men, and there were about twelve twelve guys still doing push ups and pull ups in the twenty by twenty uh concrete boxes where we Do it. And he's and he's like, They they need to know that I'm going to lead them. And I said, No, they need to know that you feel it as much as they do. And he goes, Do you understand that you are going to get me and everyone killed for act acting like that? It was like, and I said, You're dying now. It's killing you now. And he got so mad, and he said, if you say another word, I'm going to hurt you. And I said, I said, You and I both know it's not going to end like that. Because I will fight, I will fight right back, and I'm still gonna ask you the question. I'm still gonna be here, and I'm still gonna support you, and I'm still gonna love you, and you are going to tell the truth. And he stops to walk, he looks me dead in the face, he takes a step toward me, and I do not move. And he looks me dead in my face. He goes, I don't know how to feel. I hate everything about life. And I cannot tell anyone because if I do, they will think they can no longer follow me. He said, What do you do when you don't like yourself, you don't like your life, and you don't feel you could do anything about it? He said, Tell me why I'm here. And I said, you know, sometimes when God gives you a purpose, it doesn't often come with instructions. And you are left to figure it out with people that are following you trying to figure it out. I said, the truth is you're depressed, you're struggling mentally, and they're just as depressed and struggling mentally. And if we walk back there and you introduce this idea and you ask the question, they will listen. He was in silence for a few moments. We started to walk, he said, I can't do it, but you can. I said, I have no problem doing that. And I walked on to the 20 by 20, and I said, I heard y'all lost somebody. How does that make y'all feel? Honestly. And they all looked at him, and some people, some of them chuckled and tried to walk away, and he made one word. He said, Stop. And before they could take another step, everybody froze. He said, Come back here and listen to what he's saying. Because we all lying to ourselves. We lost our we lost our brother. And we're working out as if it's nothing and like we're okay, but we're not. And that conversation unlocked so many different things in men that had never in their lives shared it before. So, Steve, when you ask the question of what made me the person I am today, it's having men like my dad talk to a young boy who felt abandoned, who felt like an outsider, who had an anger disorder and didn't know anything about what that even meant and had no clue and was struggling, who was terrified for people to leave him. He felt like if he made them laugh and smile and made them feel safe, they'll never leave him. And in rooms where people professed so much love and appreciation, he felt alone. But he loved that little boy anyway. I became, when I'm able to help other men, and that man was able to change the lives of 12 other men because we had a conversation and his vulnerability inspired me beyond comprehension. And make no mistake about it, my life was in danger at the moment. But having a commitment to say, I'm gonna help this man, we're gonna have this conversation, I'm gonna listen to my dad, even though he understood that what I was dealing with was incredibly difficult, and he didn't have an answer. But he had love, appreciation, and time to listen. So I watched the man that raised me deal with so many things, and then I went and applied it and realized that so many different things were absolutely exactly, Alex, the ripple effect, like it absolutely just cascaded time and time and time and time again because the action of showing up, even when I felt like I didn't belong inside and trying to support the men, but watching a father show me and say, hey, look, even on days when you don't feel correct or you don't feel all the way there, and we don't have the answers, we ask God for strength and we try to help anyway. And we'll talk about anything you need to talk about, and we'll try to get through it any which way, even if I don't have the answers. That's how I became the man I am today. Showing up for others and paying attention to the man that God gave me that raised me and taught me how to be a man. Because it went beyond any of those things.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Wow. Wow, John. Two words really come to my mind, and one is fear and the other is courage. And we often use them in terms of courage with muscles and courage with silence and courage with bravado. And that story you told was absolutely remarkable that from what I'm hearing, you were talking to somebody that showed no fear, that had no fear. But the reality is it was all upside down. He had a ton of fear. He didn't want to lose respect, he didn't want to lose command of his his group. He had a ton of fear and was living behind that mask that we talk about a lot, and that we talked a lot about in the in the webinar. And you know, you you you gave him, you showed him that courage and gave him that opportunity to not only enhance his life, but the the lives of everyone there. And that is truly remarkable. That's what we talk about all the time.

SPEAKER_04 28:40

And you know, Steve, I I want the there's a specific question that I always bring up. Um, and and uh it's it's a dangerous question, especially when you ask it in the settings that I've asked it. It is to your very point of what you said, with muscle and strength, there is there is this bravado, there is this fear that is created when you see somebody like that. I asked that man and all the rest of them a question, and that question was how can you say you are so tough and fearless, but you can't answer a question? How can you proclaim being tough and masculine and the epitome of being feared and using fear as a form of respect, but you can't answer one question? And I said, don't tell me you are tough if you are afraid to answer a question truthfully. And they can never answer it in any other way but with the truth. They either avoid it or they face it. Happens every time.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

And and and I want to acknowledge the that part of I'm and I'd be interested in in in um uh Gabriel on that exact question, which is what I see on this screen is pure strength. It doesn't come from the body in that traditional masculinity way. It comes from the ability to observe like you did, to take the wisdom that your father shared with you and go out in the world, ask questions, witness how a lot of people behave and act and conduct themselves. And we have an eighth grader here going into high school, or we've got a senior going into college. Um, and then uh two, I I don't know if I say two older guys, Alex, or two elder statesmen. And um, you know, we're all in situations, and I know I feel it, that that fear from time to time of being excluded or left out or ostracized for really pressing people to look deeper and to act with intentionality with respect to themselves, love of themselves, and love of others.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

So I'd like to sort of turn it around to Gabriel and Ryan, because as Steve mentioned, both of you guys are facing interesting transitions in the next few months, right? Ryan leaving the safety of being, you know, top of the heap in middle school and and going off to high school as the low person on the totem pole. And and Gabriel, same thing from you, leaving the safe confines of a school that's been your home for a number of years and going off to the challenges of of higher ed. How do you guys, how did you listen to John here and what what resonated from what John said in terms of some of the path ahead for you guys? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

I think for me, uh well, first of all, kind of all of it. I thought I was just kind of shocked and just like in awe kind of during that whole story. And I think I can very understand, John, why you do a lot of storytelling and you focus on production because that would really caption me the entire story. But I think for me, I think the biggest thing is asking questions because I think so many times, especially in my own experience, it could just be maybe like a one-off question, and then you kind of let it be. And then I think when I do that often, I've really struggle at maybe developing deeper, deeper relationships with people that I wish I had, but I never really took the time to ask the question. Even when I'm maybe I I'm being asked a question myself, oh, how are you doing? And maybe I'm not doing amazing, but I say I'm doing good when I'm really not, and I kind of avoid it. So it's even on myself sometimes too. But I think what you were saying, John, about having just to kind of face these questions head on and really take them truthfully, because that's the only way that you're really able to, I feel like, kind of know where you are and actually feel all your emotions. And I think, especially in college, when you're kind of meeting a whole ton of new people, you're in a whole new environment, I think that this is the time, if ever, to take every question truthfully and just become exactly who you are and don't stray away from anything that kind of forms a persona, but just be as honest to every question. And that's, I feel like how I would actually be able to build these deep relationships, especially in college where people are striving for them and everyone's in a new environment in a different away from the hometown. And if you just kind of stray away, you have nothing to do. You're just gonna sit and sulk in your room. But if you actually answer these questions truthfully, how are you doing? Oh no, I'm actually I'm not doing the best. Maybe someone else also isn't doing the best. You can actually connect with them. And I think that's one thing, especially in the last month of school, kind of for me, that I'll do to kind of encourage my friends to do the same and open up about how they're feeling. Because it's gonna be sad everyone I'm actually gonna see them for I don't know how long, and maybe some relationships would fall off. But I think it's important to really focus on some relationships before they kind of go away.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Yeah, and to add on to that, I feel like one of the things that really like stood out to me from that story was the like ripple, like the domino effect from just one guy willing to be like even the smallest bit of vulnerable, how that made everybody able to talk about their feelings. Like, I feel like one thing that I was talking about in a previous podcast episode was how although you are one person, you can have a bigger impact on others, even if you just have an impact on one person, that one person might have an impact on another, on another, on another. And I feel like that's so important to be able to see, like, as long as you're doing your best to s like spread what you think is right, then you're doing a lot more than probably you're gonna be able to see. And like I just want to say, like, I feel like this is such a great moment to see how vulnerable we can all be in such a great environment. I want to thank all of you guys because I feel like once again, just from small conversations like this, I feel like everybody, you never know what anybody's like going through. And I feel like right now, just from this conversation, like this might sprout something, other friendships, it might sprout somebody else to be vulnerable, somebody else, and that might cause another domino effect. So I just want to thank all of you guys for being willing to do this. So thank you guys so much.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Wow, what wisdom, Ryan. Every time you speak, I am so impressed. Um, but I shouldn't because 12 years ago I had to learn how to be a man from my 15-year-old daughter, right? So I I guess I should stop being surprised. But also talking about the ripple effect and you never know what might happen. I was not in a good place today when this podcast started. And you spoke to me right now, John, with with what you just went through over the last 15 minutes. And it was just for the audience's information, I let everyone know before this podcast, for some reason I was militant and and um I was warning them how I might touch on some topics. What I was really doing was hurting. And the way that you just described things was like a message straight from God through your body, through your voice to my ears, in terms of what I needed to hear and what I needed what I need to do to make myself a little bit more all right. So I just want to thank you for, you know, your your honesty and and I I would love to meet your dad because raising a son with such you know wisdom, I think you have 20, I have 22 years on you, John, talking about old men. But I am still learning every day and struggling with how to be the best version of myself. And I throw myself into the work and doing good things and helping others. And um, I have come to a realization, a lot of it with the help of my dear friend Steve, about you know, the concept of self-care and and trying to get to the sources of of some of the masks, you know, that we wear and and you know, hearing about the man that you helped with these conversations. What I heard and saw were was your your friend there taking up um the mantle of true leadership with his team, with his with his friends, with his group, right, in terms of just using that simple word stop, and you know, refocusing them on what you were saying because of the the truth of what you were saying, the care of what you were saying. And somehow we need to find more spaces for men because there is a desert out there for our young people in terms of finding safe places, you know, to share. You know, Gabriel, I've been along with you through your journey through a lot of your high school career. I've seen you go through difficult times, I've seen you show so much bravery in terms of facing challenges, facing difficulties, and having to deal with a lot of nonsense, right? And maybe times lack of support. And I've I've seen the impact on you, even when you say I'm I'm I'm all fine. And what a cool, great world it is when we have the relationships where we can all say, We we've got your back, right? It's it's okay however you're feeling right now, and I'm here, I'm here for you. And, you know, this is something, guys, that as you go off on your journey, Ryan to high school, Gabriel to university, I hope you can listen to John and stay connected to him and stay connected to Steve and just understand there's some great role models out there that are real men who show real strength and courage, not you know, a lot of the nonsense that's in the air that too many of us are breathing every day.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

And also I wanted to add, like, I feel like something that John said was the question that he often asks, if you can't answer this question, like how strong really are you? I think that's the main essence of the question. And I feel like one thing that that showed me was although in today's society we see vulnerability as something that's a sign of weakness, and most situations and pretty much all of them, vulnerability is a sign of strength. And I feel like quite recently I was in New York for uh for a family friend's like ordination, and I met one of the greatest people that I've like ever met. Her name was Therese, and um she we were just talking normally, and she told me about how her niece was a victim to gun violence recently, and I feel like the one thing that like one of the main things that I took from that conversation is like how strong she must have been to be able to share that to me, and I feel like it's so important that others see that like being vulnerable is the biggest sign of strength that anybody can show, and it shows that the people that are vulnerable have, like, in my opinion, so much more caring, they see through other people's eyes, and I feel like that's so important when you see somebody being vulnerable to like give them credit for truly being vulnerable and having the strength to be able to share what they need to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Yeah, I really agree with that, right? And I think also back to you, John, with all of your work, I think with sports, because I feel that often athletics is a place, at least it used to be, where mental health was kind of disregarded. But I think over the years there has been more people speaking out, such as like Kevin Love. But I think that even when there are like specific people kind of speaking up, I think the vast majority of athletes, professional athletes, are kind of all quiet. And I think that also contributes to a culture kind of lowering down maybe high school, middle school of these kids thinking that mental health doesn't really matter. Or yeah, as you said, yeah, John, there's locker room mentality, and I think this kind of trickles around and it's just what's in the locker room. And then when that's said, no one really thinks about mental health or anything with that. So I would ask to you, how have you seen with your current employer, maybe kind of throughout your entire life, how mental health has kind of shifted within sports and maybe how it's progressed to be more open in an open discussion, or has it become even more close, or really no change at all?

SPEAKER_04 42:07

So it's an excellent question. And what I've seen over the course of my career is that in the beginning, no one would ever bring it up because they were too tough to do that. And then uh I was the only one that did it at a certain point. Um, and there is there's a space in there where I had to develop and become the person that would be the only one. It's different because we were taught, you know, we leave you leave your problems outside of the door when you come in here and you show up and you work hard and then you you go home. That's not even possible in the slightest. That is literally impossible. I cannot separate what is happening to me and leave it outside of any work environment. If it affects me outside, it's gonna affect me because just because I change rooms and I change buildings doesn't mean that I changed problems or I shifted and then I pick it up when I leave. It doesn't happen that way. It's still existing. So we have to learn how to exist with it, develop the solution as it still exists and go forward. So what I learned and saw was okay, if nobody's gonna say it, I am. You all are lying. You're liars. You're liars, you're liars, you're liars, you're a liar, you're a liar, you're definitely a liar, you're a liar. And they're like, no, no, no. I was like, yes, yes, yes, I'll prove it to you. And over the course of a few conversations, you would see people shift uncomfortably. Some people openly reject the conversation. But a few came and found me and say, Thank you so much for saying something. I've been suffering for a long time. And when I knew that there was something there, God put something in me that just wouldn't let it go. No matter what I tried, I couldn't let it go because it's like when you buy a car or you buy something new and you notice other people that have that thing. I kept seeing more people and kept seeing more people struggling. And as I saw people struggling, I would ask a couple of questions because my whole life I've just been this curious weirdo guy that just always asks questions to people when I see them, whether I know you or not. And so the more questions I asked, the more solidified the answer became, and that is, oh, this is not going away, and this has to happen now. And it turned and snowballed into this movement, I would call it, because it started to be this push and revolution of we're gonna have the conversation. We're not running anymore. And I said this to um one of my coaches, one of the best coaches I've ever had. I've played a bunch of sports, uh, boxing, basketball, football, and my boxing coach said to me at one point, he goes, You know, John, you are very fearless, but at some point, you're gonna have to stop running from your demons and turn around and start chasing them. And at the time, I just stared at him because it woke something in me that I just didn't, couldn't at that time comprehend, but I understood it later in life. At some point, you have to stop running from this bully of anxiety, this bully of depression, this bully of imposter syndrome, this bully of we don't talk about that. And you have to turn around and push back. And what you'll find is that there are other people around you that really want to push back, but they were afraid to push alone. And when I got rid of the fear of pushing alone, or feeling like I was forcing people to address this and realize that they wanted to, but they weren't ready or didn't have the courage to do it, God kept putting this thing in me that I couldn't let go of. And I kept talking about it, and I kept asking questions, and before I know it, people would ask, hey, can you talk us, walk us through this? And I would say, I'm gonna be honest with you, I am not a therapist, I do not have a license, this is not advice. And they were like, no, no, no, no, we just we just want to actually talk about it because no one will. And that small, that population grew massively. And it just, it just, it just swelled and swelled and swelled until the rest of the world realized that this was not going away. And it happened during the time. So like the movement for me started before COVID hit in 2020. It actually started in 2018, 2019, which was our which was harder for me and my team when we co-founded and started to build things, even even in other spaces. It was hard because you don't really talk about that stuff anywhere. And so to present it in a time where there is perceived no need, it gets difficult. And so COVID might have been, that time might have been one of the greatest blessings that changed the world. Because we all had to deal with how we felt up here. We had nothing but time to deal with this. And the conversations that I had started years prior now compounded in ways that I never saw coming. And so it starts with a question and it starts with potentially one person, but the the m you can't avoid numbers. You can't avoid compound interest. Because the second one person says it to two others, and those two say it to four, and those four say it to eight, and so on and so forth, by the time you turn around, what was formerly the majority is now the minority. And they have to make a choice. Do I continue to act like this doesn't exist, or do I accept that maybe there is something to this and I explore my avenue where I fit in? And so that's how it evolved. That's how we I looked at it, and that's how I continue to address it now. And when I speak at different places around the country, that's exactly what we deal with because what you'll find is everyone is not as hurt as you envision that they are.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

So, John, I want to dive into this movement a little bit more and talk about the challenges that you must have faced within, you know, your workplace at ESPN setting up this effort. And when I look at different photos related to trust, you know, I see typically you surrounded by a number of women. How hard was it to bring men, other men into this effort and to get their support? Can you talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_04 49:49

Incredibly hard, Alex. Incredibly hard. I've had guys tell me, you do it first and I'll see how that works out. And then I'll make a choice. I've had I've had guys come find me in private and say, Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, how many of these do you think you're gonna do? I'm like, why? You know, you know, I don't want you, you know, you know, out here, you know, looking like a chump. And I said, if anybody thinks I'm a chump, tell them to come say it to my face. I said, because you know what tough is? Tough is being able to face whatever it is, make a decision, hey, I hear you, I just do not care. And then move on. I was like, you know what, you gotta think about it. I said, the problem is a lot of people care what other people think too much. I don't. If you agree with me, fantastic, we can have a conversation. If you disagree, fantastic, we can have a conversation. Because at the end of the day, the responsibility of how I feel belongs to me. And I cannot waste time is currency, but so is emotion. And I can't spend emotional money or dollars on the perceived mentality of someone else that isn't as experienced or educated in this space that I'm in. I would never ask a doctor to change the engine in my car. That does not make sense to me. So I cannot sit up there and take advice from somebody that won't even face it. You don't even know what you're looking at. So it was incredibly difficult, but it was the thing that drove me. And what and I was committed to being the only one. And for a long time, I was. And you brought up a good point about being surrounded by women. I say this all the time. I can talk to the ladies, the queens will talk to me all day long. It's the guys that, and they're coming along now, but it's the guys that are give the biggest problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

Well, we understand in our advocacy work the the concept of preaching to the choir. And, you know, the challenge with our work is how do we engage boys and young men? Um and Steve has opened up the world to mental health and and the intersection between mental health and sexual violence. But I want to talk about another intersection here now, because what it sounds to me like was the the nascent effort was more of a support function, right? And and and how to lift everyone up. But as I've, you know, I look at the work now and and you know, I love the acronym of trust. It is it is so beautiful in terms of talk, recognize, understand, support, triumph. I love the arc of those, of those words. We call our effort, thanks to my mentor, Don McPherson, the college football hall of fame quarterback from Syracuse. Even though I'm a Hoya, I still give Don, you know, sort of props. But listening to Don and my other mentor, Jackson Katz, you know, really this is all about a leadership issue, right? And and maybe that's language men can rally around a little bit easier. And and wanted to get your thoughts in terms of the linkage between a leadership issue and, you know, the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 53:29

So the combination is is very intricate and it and it catches people off guard about how intricate it actually is, is because you have to find the right leader first, because leadership has been taught in a specific way for a long period of time. And in that is somewhat of the locker room culture. We lead, uh, we don't we don't quiver or shake in the face of danger or anything like that. But you have to find the leader that is willing to understand the concept of, you know, one, fear is awareness. Two, understanding what to do with it and not running from it is also important. And three, it's just it's that thing where they need to have the voice that permeates all levels, all spaces, and for lack of a better phrase, is locked into everybody will follow suit. And so now if if the and and that's what the blessing uh that we had is that they believed. And when and and the beautiful thing is about when they believe, it's this okay, how do we do this right and not avoid it? We're not avoiding it, but how do we do this right? And so while some leaders were, you know, not in specifically where I I work, but also in other spaces and other companies when brought up, were very against it. Our leaders literally were like, Nope, this is absolutely true. We need to do this right. And that mentality of doing it right was the thing that was the the wind in the sail that really pushed us forward. Because you can't argue when the guy or gala up top says, This is important. This is what we gotta do.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

Thank you so much for that, John. I couldn't agree more. I think it's very important. I think often, especially at a younger setting, people often lack a true leader. Especially in high school, they feel like maybe if you're a senior, oh, I'm not old enough to be a leader. But in times when there isn't a leader, people just need to step up and I think take that step. And I think one question that we love to ask all of our guests at the end, since this is with I have the right to, is could you please finish this statement? And it's I have the right to, and then blank.

SPEAKER_04 56:15

I was waiting for this part. I love this part. I have the right to live in unfailing, powerful, purposeful purposefully driven life, fearless and without fear of anyone's thoughts, opinions, or assumptions on who I should be. And quickly what I'll say is I say that because I'm I'll be 37 this year, and it took me, I would say, a good 15 to 20 of those years to figure it out because there was a lot of uh people pleasing in the beginning because of fear of them leaving me and me being a guy that ends up alone. And what you realize is your people will find you always, and you will find them. And what you'll find is they were looking for you as much as you were looking for them. So don't be afraid to be who you are.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

That is so easy to say and so hard to live through. And again, that's where the courage, I mean, you talked earlier about commitment to excellence and and giving everything you have, and and I can sort of see that all coming through with your commitment to that. But I I've been so inspired by this that I want to ask my other co-host. We've never done this before. I'm gonna put my other co-host on the hook right now to after listening to this beautiful conversation, what is the inspiration in your heads for completing an I have the right to, you know, statement? And I'm gonna put uh the next oldest person on um this podcast right now um on the spot first, and we'll go in descending age here. But Mr. Peacock, what is your I have the right to statement?

SPEAKER_02 58:19

I have the right to follow John's incredible example of a mental health champion at home and at work to help people help themselves. I truly speak a lot about the idea that hurt people help people, which is a little twist on the hurt people hurt people. Truth fact of the matter is hurt people do help hurt people, but if you get asked the questions and if you can probe and you can show them you care and you can be vulnerable and model all of that, I truly believe that really can flip the script. And and uh John, I uh am so grateful for your time and your friendship and looking forward to continuing the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

I would say mind is I think it's in a very similar vein to what everyone said before, but I would say for me it's I have the right to feel and share all of the emotions that I'm feeling and not be judged or not be upset by sharing that and feel comfortable in sharing that.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

The main thing that I got out of the podcast today, and to finish the I have a right to statement, it is I have the right to define what it means to be strong and define what vulnerable really means.

SPEAKER_03 59:42

That is like a mic drop at the end of the podcast. We we have also a streak here going, John. This is we're into the 60s in terms of the number of podcasts we've put together as an org. And again, I've got goosebumps because what do we say, Gabriel, at the end of every taping?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

I think that this episode was the best one, yeah. And I truly do feel that. I think this one was incredible, and I'm so happy that you're able to join us today, John.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

Well, I am gonna finish with my you know statement. And because I'm the oldest guy on this podcast, I'm gonna flip the words a little bit. And this is something that we do within our org with the I Have the Right to statement, because we also think there's a flip side of that with I have the responsibility to. And I'm gonna do that statement. I have the responsibility to work as hard as possible to work collaboratively with John and all of his wonderful colleagues to help magnify the ripple effect of this movement, because this movement of engaging men, let letting men know it is okay to put down their mask, to have deep or thick conversations, as Dr. Niobi Wei says at NYU, not the thin conversations that we're so accustomed to, but to be able to express love, to be able to show and share love with other men. This is what I I want to do, and I feel the responsibility to do after hearing you speak, John. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:23

It was an absolute honor. I am so grateful. This has, you know, really jumpstarted me. And then sometimes when you're you're on this journey, you get tired, uh, especially when you're when the movement has grown exponentially, but sometimes you're still the only voice. So to be in a room with other men that are also the voice is so empowering. So I can't thank you all enough for your support. Um, and and I say that to every single one of you. I don't care what your age is or where you are in life, we can still learn, we can still understand. So I am honored and I am grateful. It has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:07

Thank you. And I think this has been such an important conversation. I'm going to do also something that I haven't done before, which is to really challenge every listener here to create your own darn ripple effect here. If you listen to this podcast, share it with someone that you love, someone that you care about, someone that you think needs to hear this message that John so eloquently put out there into the universe. We have the power to change things if we all collectively use our voices. If we're sitting on the sidelines, guess what? We're complicit with the way things exist right now. And if we want things to change, the only way that they're going to change is if we get up together. I couldn't be prouder to stand with you, John, in this in this effort. Steve, that goes for you, Ryan, Gabriel. You know, I am I am so inspired each week when we meet amazing people doing remarkable work, but we also know the psychic drain that this work takes. And but it is a beautiful thing to build this community together and to watch it grow and grow stronger. So I am so grateful. So thank you very much. Thank you so much for listening. Like and subscribe to the podcast on all platforms. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five star rating and tell your friends about Aspire. Follow us on social media at I Have the Right To. Learn more about our student and executive programming at our website at ihatheright2.org.