E69: Aspire to Be Vulnerable (ft. John Stanczak) - Real Men, Real Conversations

In this week's episode of Aspire: Real Men, Real Conversations, host Alex Prout and co-host Jonas Wall sit down with John Stanczak, an educator, writer, and theology teacher at Seton Hall University, to explore what healthy masculinity really looks like. The conversation centers on identity, loneliness, vulnerability, faith, mental health, and how young men can grow into more emotionally honest and connected versions of themselves.

John shares how years of teaching and leading all-boys schools, along with his own lived experience with depression and anxiety, shaped his interest in men’s mental health and the emotional lives of teenage boys. He explains why he wrote Letters to Owen, What Manhood Requires of Us and how he hopes to offer a healthier counterbalance to the harmful messages many young men absorb online.

To learn more about I Have The Right To, please visit https://ihavetherightto.org/take-action/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Aspire, and I have the Right To podcast, where we amplify voices, share stories, and drive change in the fight against sexual assault. We explore the critical issues surrounding student safety, institutional accountability, and survivor empowerment. In every episode, our goal is to provide insightful conversations with survivors, experts, educators, and advocates, giving you, our listener, valuable information, resources, and actionable steps to create safer environments and cultivate a culture of respect and consent. Welcome back to another episode of The Spire: Real Men, Real Conversations. Today's guest is someone who speaks with honesty, compassion, and intellectual depth about some of the most important questions facing young men today: identity, loneliness, suffering, faith, masculinity, and what it truly means to live a meaningful life. John Stanzak is an educator at Seton Hall University, writer and thoughtful voice on the emotional and spiritual lives of young people. In a culture that often teaches boys to suppress emotion, avoid vulnerability, and man up, John challenges us to rethink strength itself. His recent article, How to Build a Faith That's Sturdy Enough for Real Life, explores the idea that real joy is not the absence of suffering, but the courage to remain open, connected, and fully human through it. At I Have the Right to, we often talk about aspirational masculinity, the belief that true masculinity is rooted not in domination or performance, but in empathy, accountability, courage, and connection. John's work speaks directly into that conversation. So, John, thank you for joining us on Aspire.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Thanks very much, Alex.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Great to see you. Excellent. Well, if if I can, John, just for the sake of our audience, um, because you you do have an interesting, you know, role and you talk about some very interesting topics, but could you can you explain to us the journey that you've had to sort of travel to get to the place you are now, but also why these topics were ones that really drove your interest and curiosity?

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Sure. Uh absolutely. So I I've spent a long time, I think, inside the mind and architecture of the of the teenage boy. Uh I was obviously a teenage boy once myself, but I went to an all-boys high school, uh, an all-boys Jesuit high school. Um, and my entire career, save for the first three years, uh I've worked in all boys high schools. Um I've taught, I've coached, I was for uh close to 15 years a principal of an all-boys high school, and uh, and I currently serve as the uh chair of the theology department at Seton Hall Prep, and I teach philosophy. Um so I I've been around teenage boys for a long time. I wrote my master's thesis in theology, which is which is really my my first area uh on male spirituality. Um so I've spent a lot of time in that in that type of space. But you know, one of the things I uh over time that has happened is uh I've dealt for uh much of my adult life, I've I've lived with uh depression and anxiety. And uh around COVID, uh, you know, we certainly saw a lot of young people struggling with mental health issues. And that kind of coincided with a sense within me that I really needed to be doing more in terms of sharing my story with my students and sharing my story with others about men's mental health. Uh, and the first part of that was really just speaking out more, being candid with my students, having more conversations with them uh about where they were in their mental health, where they were in their development as young men, sharing with them stories of mistakes that I had made and how I had grown over time. And I began to find that that those conversations really began to be a lot of the work that I was doing in the classroom. And I found that a lot of the guys were really hungry for having those conversations. They were looking to talk about how they were feeling, uh, you know, they were looking for opportunities to be vulnerable and talk about their feelings. And I was really taken by that. I I think a lot of times we kind of misunderstand that, you know, young boys want to be, you know, they're they're they're kind of stoic and they're quiet and you ask them questions and they kind of grunt and nod. But but I think if you create some space there, uh, you know, you find that there's really a lot more on their mind. And and that led to maybe a final part of the journey, which around that time, uh as I really wanted to learn more about uh about these types of issues, I began engaging in graduate work in happiness studies. I got a master's degree in in happiness studies and positive psychology, and I'm currently pursuing a PhD in that area. Uh, and I I work under a guy named Tal Ben Shahar, who was a professor at Harvard, uh, who started a course in in happiness studies at Harvard. Uh and like a lot of these courses that you hear about, uh, it was dynamite. I mean, all of a sudden it was the most popular course at Harvard, and and you know, every student there wanted to take it. Um, and I'm fortunate now to study underneath Tal, but it it just really spoke even more. And that's going on elsewhere. That's going on with with Lori Santos at Yale and a lot of these places that young people want to talk about what's going on, where where are they? How do they find a better life? How do they flourish? How do they kind of you know begin to recognize the the important things uh you know that are going on for them? Um so that kind of brought me to where I am today. I think most recently uh the work I've done is a lot of writing. Uh I have a substack that I keep uh where I write three essays a week that that really deal at the intersection of flourishing men's mental health um and culture. Uh and I just recently published a book that was just released two weeks ago. Um, that's called Letters to Owen, What Manhood Requires of Us. And it's a uh really a collection of letters to my son, but really to all the young men that I've taught and will teach, uh, to try to throw, you know, my voice into the discussion of, you know, what does it mean to be a good man? And I think for a lot of the young men that that I, at least that I'm teaching these days, um you know, there's a lot of messaging out there coming from the manosphere, coming from kind of these online loud voices. And I just I don't think that a lot of it is is really good advice for young men. I think they've tapped into where young men are. I think they understand that young men are are uh lonely. I think they understand that young men are kind of dealing with a lot of emotions and a lot of questions about, you know, what kind of man do I want to be. Uh, and I think a bit of a vacuum has been created that allows some of these voices really more credibility than they deserve. So I just wanted to add my voice to uh to some of those voices as kind of a counterbalance to say, hey, listen, there's more uh that than than just what you're hearing online. So so that that kind of brought me, that's kind of the I don't know if that's a long story or short story of of how I got to where where I am today.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

No, that that's wonderful. And and I want to pivot to my my co-host um this evening, Jonas Wall. And and Jonas, uh, this is the first time we've done a podcast together. So I I would love it first if you would introduce yourself, you know, to our audience. And then I would love to get your thoughts on what John just walked through, since you know, you're one of the people that I think John is trying to reach, you know, through this work, given the fact that you are a young man who's who's growing and evolving and at university now.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Of course. Uh my name is Jonas Wall. I am a college freshman at the University of Delaware. I am a student intern with I Have the Right to. And in terms of what John just said, I can completely agree with that. We have a course similar to what you just said, happiness studies, I think uh like the science of well-being at UD, it fills up every semester. Um I think it really people do want to be happy and they want to figure out how to be happy. And normally it's not always a straight path to get there. Um, and for myself too, as a teenage boy myself, I know that happiness isn't the same for everybody. It's there's always a different path that everybody has to take. And it's really about finding what works for you. And talking about your journey, was there any uh personal experience that forced you to rethink what faith or strength actually meant to you?

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Yeah, I think one of the big ones was uh, you know, I I had mentioned that I was a principal of a boys' Catholic high school for a long time, uh, for close to 15 years. And and during that journey, probably uh, you know, year 12 or so, uh I started to get a little burnt out and I found that, you know, the the the job wasn't giving me the same kind of fulfillment that it had. And there were a lot of reasons for that. I th I think at heart I'm a teacher, and and uh, you know, uh it the the administrative part of the job had gotten to be very heavy, and you know, we're building buildings and all these things, and I I began to become very, you know, uh you know, burnt out and kind of unhappy. And it really left me at sea a little bit, saying, you know, here I am, I'm approaching 50. I I I'm not terribly happy in my job right now, but but what am I supposed to do? It was a prestigious job. It was a job that you know made me a decent living. Um, you know, I had two kids at home, uh, my wife. Uh, but you know, it really began eating away at me more and more and more until my wife finally said to me, you know, listen, you've got to make a change. I mean, this is just not uh this is just not where you are right now. Um and it was terrifying. I mean, it's terrifying to be a man at at 50 years old and and trying to figure out, you know, what next. Um so I just kind of walked out, walked away from it. And I said, I'm I'm gonna go back to the classroom. That that's where I've really been happiest. Uh, I was very lucky to have a lot of friends in education, you know, one of whom immediately said, Listen, come come teach with me, come teach in my place. And uh, and and I've been thrilled ever since I've been at C and Hall Prep for eight years now. Uh it's been eight uh amazing years. It's created uh all sorts of opportunities for me to explore new things that I wanted to do. But but I tell my students that story because it was terrifying, right? I mean, I think for you, you know, Jonas, I I don't envy you because I think you know, you probably get a lot of people saying to you, you know, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? You know, what are you studying? What do you plan to do? And and uh, you know, I teach primarily seniors in high school. So, you know, so they're kind of at the same place. And and that's a scary question, right? And I think there's we've kind of we've kind of given young men the message that if you don't have it all figured out by the time you're 19 years old, man, you're behind the game a little bit. And and I just don't think that's just not the case. Uh there's plenty of time in life to kind of pivot, to grow, to learn, to switch gears. Uh so so you know, I'm very open with my students about, you know, some of the times of my life where I've had to do that because I just want to reassure them that that's okay. You know, that part of being human is that uh sometimes in life you say, I I I've got to change, I've got to grow, I've I've got to let go of things that are not life-giving, and I've got to pursue some things that are more life-giving for me.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

So, John, you you mentioned that you you had this extended period in terms of being sort of the administrative leader of a school, and then you know, probably coming back into the classroom with, I imagine, a different mindset, energy, level of experience or perspective. Um and having now spent sort of eight years at Seton Hall prep, um, you know, what is what are the things that you've picked up from the boys, you know, because a lot has changed over the last, you know, eight years, right? I think we we had probably longer term stability before that, but then, you know, we've had COVID, we've had, you know, so much disruption and change, difference in in learning, um, you know, so many explosive social, you know, movements that I think have raised the consciousness, and like you said, a much greater awareness of the importance of mental health and well-being. You know, what how have you been informed over this time at Seton Hall prep and you know, helped you shape your understanding of uh the most updated version of masculinity?

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Yeah, I I think there's a few things. Uh uh, you know, one in happiness studies, one of the things that that has been shown time and time and time again is that the key to a happy life and the key to a flourishing life is relationships. Uh and when we look at even these places that are called blue zones, right? Where we we see people are living uh the you know, longevity, uh the living long lives, uh, what we find that they have in common is is quality, strong relationships. And and I think as I look at the last 10 years, that may be one of the areas that um has become most at risk for young people. I think, you know, I I hate to be join in the chorus of people blaming everything on social media, but I think social media has kind of readjusted the nature of relationships. I think we've moved from real intimate relationships to more uh anonymous kind of online casual relationship. Uh, I think the you know, the the social media world has created a lot of tribalism. Uh, and I think I think political turmoil over the last you know 15 years has created some tribalism, you know, where we see people rather than coming together, uh becoming more isolated with within their own tribe. Uh and and I see that among young people, less the political end of it, but more just the uh, you know, just sitting and and talking to another person is uh you know, is is kind of a lost art for them. Uh uh communication is done digitally and and through Snapchat and through Instagram. Well, you know, let me let me give you an example. We have a retreat every year at uh at Seton Hall, but several times a year for juniors and seniors called the Kairos Retreat, the religious retreat. It's a week-long, uh great, great uh every student who goes to Seaton Hall Prep says it's the highlight of their career. And one of the things that's really awesome about the Kairos Retreat is the the minute they show up, we take their phones away, right? And they go for the whole week without their phones. And at the end of the week, uh, you know, we're getting on the bus, we give them the phones back, and a lot of guys say, man, how refreshing it was to be away from my phone for for that period of time and just talk to other people. I mean, they love it, right? I I mean, we've created a world in which that's harder for them to do, but they one one of the things they say is so powerful is that, man, I love that just being talking, being able to talk to people in instead of you know constantly looking at the phones and and sitting at lunch and people looking at their phones. Uh, you know, so I I think that kind of relational end of it has has shifted. Um, I I think the other thing that comes out of Kairos that I always think about, I just had a conversation with my my seniors about it. And I said, what is it about that experience that you think is so powerful? And every one of them, almost every one of them, use the same word, and that word was vulnerability. They said, Boy, it was so great to be vulnerable and to talk with other guys about the you know real things in my life. Um and I think, you know, again, social media has kind of a performative aspect to it that almost that almost uh mitigates against any kind of vulnerability. I mean, if anything, you're trying to show your best self, right? You're uh, on on Instagram and and kind of curating your life for people to see. And it's it's taken away those opportunities for vulnerability that only happen, you know, person to person. And guys, why? I mean, they i i it is obvious to anybody who spends time with with uh with high school boys that they want it, they're dying for it and and they're looking for places to find it.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

So so Jonas, I I I'm again gonna pivot back to you on on that one. Have you ever had um in the last several years an experience or an opportunity to put the device away and and um you know what has been you know sort of the result of that? Or if not, you know, how how what do you think of what John just walked through with the Kairos process? And by the way, my my youngest daughter went through Kairos program at her school in DC here. And again, watching all the kids come back and welcoming them back into the community, it you could see it was life-changing for all the young people that participated, you know, in it. It's it's a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

So I actually have um when I was in high high school, I had a two-week summer camp in Vermont for music, um, where there was no phones. We were on this like beautiful lakefront, um, like a property, and it was just music for two weeks. Um, it was amazing. And we obviously got phones were taken from us. And I think it was so, so instrumental in it seems like clear side of study, but like I kind of think connecting with nature, just like listening to everything around you. I think it's really like kind of a lost art. And like so now when I'm in my college years, I'm so much busier. Like, I kind of I don't want to say that I need my phone in the sense that I'm always texting people, I'm always arranging things, but like I feel like society society has gotten so dependent on uh digital communications to the point where like we just can't do anything without it. And I think I would love to go on a week long retreat without my phone, but I would come back to like one million miss emails, a million miss texts, the world's ending. I'm like, uh, I just can't do that. Um and sometimes I feel like fragmented because I just have so many parts of different places. So my question for you, John, would be we're talking about like a we're talking about a complete man, what qualities do you think defines a complete man?

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Wow. Uh yeah, that's a that's a that's a big question. Um I I think I I think you know we often think of of manhood with with some of the same terms of of strength and leadership and and those kinds of things. And and I think those words are are are okay. I think those words still work, but I think we have to kind of ask ourselves, you know, I I think men should be strong, but strong in what way? Um you know, strong in a way that dominates or strong in a way that has the courage to kind of be emotional and and to be human and to apologize and to forgive? Uh I think those are, you know, the kinds of strong qualities that that we're looking for. Um I think, you know, we we we often talk about men as being protectors, right? But but again, I think that's a word that can kind of go in in two different directions. Yeah, you know, is it does a protector mean that that you're kind of the the dominator of your family, or does it mean that you protect all people, that that wherever you see injustice, or wherever see wherever you see people on the margins, or wherever you see, you know, somebody who's in need, are you willing to step out of yourself and and to kind of uh you know protect the the the rights, um, you know, protect the the agency of women, uh protect uh you know th those who uh you know protect the poor. Um you know, we talk about leadership, and and again, does leadership only mean uh, you know, well, I'm gonna be the guy who takes charge and I'm gonna be the guy who you know kind of uh orders everybody around? Or or do we lead by example? And and do we say, you know, I'm gonna be the guy who uh who's the first one to step out of line to help somebody? Uh you know, I always say to the the the guys at school, I mean, you you know, you see a freshman drop his books, are you gonna be the guy who steps out and says, like, listen, I'm I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna it's strange to even say risk your reputation, but it is. Am I gonna risk my reputation? Am I gonna be the guy who who who steps out outside of myself? That's leadership, right? I mean, that's something that other guys look at. Um and I think you know, there's uh there's lots of ways that that can be cultivated. Uh I think it's all just a matter of, you know, are we cultivating it in the best possible ways uh among young people? Um so I I think you know, the the kind of the the the old words of strength and leadership and uh those words still work. Uh I think I would add to them uh vulnerability. Uh, you know, that's a word that that I think we we don't think of enough. Um, you know, to to be able to be present to our emotions and to recognize that our emotions are human emotions, to be able to apologize, to be able to grieve, uh to be able to to kind of recognize um that people around me uh need me in ways that uh are emotional rather than just uh transactional. Um so yeah, I I mean I could probably go on and on. I think there's a lot of uh a lot of adjectives we could use that that probably the the world needs a lot more of.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Um yeah, so uh maybe I'll jump in there with with trying to push further on this because I think you know what you just described were you know whether it's speaking up, which requires an action, right? A thought process and then an action, um or even you know, being vulnerable, which also means in my mind showing vulnerability and expressing it is also an active stance that you take in action. Um but so much of our you know society has and the training for men has been you know stoicism and and the concept of suffering in silence. Um and I think that that silence um is something that is um for most men a deep, deep comfort zone. Um and so in the practical world that you're operating, John, as being sort of a leader of boys and setting examples for them, you know, how do what are some of the things that you know we can do or that you do that we can learn from in terms of getting them to embrace that vulnerability? Which requires strength, right? Or speaking up rather than, you know, maintaining that, you know, stoic posture or being silent through seeing transgressions.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yeah. Uh so I the first thing is I think we did that to them. I I think if you go past a first grade or second grade classroom and you see young boys in school, their hands are all raised, they're they're climbing out of their seats, they're talking, they're, you know, they're they're they're eager to engage, they're yelling out answers. And somewhere along the way, we we kind of train them to say, well, that's that that's not appropriate. You gotta quiet down, you gotta, you know, uh uh so if the the first thing is I think if if we did it to them, we can undo it. Uh I think that's that's the first part of it. I think you, you know, it's I I don't think that's the default setting for young boys uh or for young men that they are stoic. I I think that's a that's a learned behavior that we've given them. Uh and I think what we need to do is we need to model for them, you know, through fathers and coaches and teachers who who who are uh you know who don't feel the need to hide their emotions. And we need to say to young boys, you know, think of how many times, you know, we we kind of use the language with with young boys, you know, like when they cry, you know, hey, come on, big boys don't cry, or you know, toughen it up, you know, walk it off, and and and kind of all the things that that that we do to try to suppress their emotions. I I think there's a lot of work to be done, but I think we have to start undoing some of that work. And I think that just comes with uh accepting that boys have emotions, and it's it's it's absolutely normal for them to want to express those emotions, and and we've got to give them the room and the space to do that. We've got to model for them what that looks like. And you know, frankly, when I when I speak with my own students about, you know, things like mental health or or or periods of my life that have been difficult, uh, you know, I think that's what it I can see their shoulders drop as I'm talking about these things, that they have permission now. They have permission with me to talk about these things. We need to create, you know, kind of spaces for them to do that. I I think a Kairos retreat is four days of their life, but we need to, you know, when they talk about vulnerability, I say, guys, wouldn't it be great if if if it if you could be like that with your friends all the time? You know, if you had other guys that you could share, uh, you know, you know, not in mawkish ways, but but just to, you know, to be able to to talk with your friends about things that are hurtful to you, um, you know, things that you're frightened about. Um, I I think it's a a matter of creating spaces and providing the modeling for for them to be able to do that. I I think, you know, we've we're re- I think the manosphere reinforces it. I wrote an uh an article a few weeks ago um in which, you know, I I've started to use the word broicism, you know, for the this stoicism. And as somebody who teaches philosophy, I can tell you that that that some of these guys online who talk about stoicism have it all wrong. I I mean they they've kind of twisted what can be, I think, a very positive uh approach to life into something. I I don't know that Marcus Aurelius or Epictetus or any of these people said that that we should just shut up and and swallow our emotions. I think the goal was can we regulate our emotions so that they don't distract us from pursuing virtue and the better things in life? I think we've cut off that last piece. Excuse me. And I so I think a lot of guys online say, well, Stoicism is about you know hiding your emotions. When really I think a better approach would be to say, you know, it's about regulating our emotions so that we can kind of grieve when it's appropriate to grieve, we can cry when it's appropriate to cry, we can be strong when it's appropriate to be strong, and all of the that whole range of emotions is part of the human experience. I think we've we've just got to do a much better job of modeling that. And I'm fortunate. Look, I work with a lot of a lot of grown men uh who do a great job of that. Um and uh coaches and and teachers and counselors, um, and and I think it's just about helping them recognize that.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

So I, you know, John, I've had the benefit of being invited into your community and coming in to Seton Hall prep and spending, you know, a good part of a day with um with the students. And, you know, I could see, you know, the the the courage of the institution and bringing in, you know, difficult conversations, conversations that maybe the students had don't have on a regular basis, meaning having a dad of a survivor coming in and speaking about um, you know, what masculinity means in the context of gender-based violence or sexual violence. Um and seeing some wonderful conversations evolve with the student body. So I can see, you know, the fruits of the work that you have done. So I I want to ask this as an example for other, you know, schools, you know, how do we institutionalize this across the board? Because I do agree with you a thousand percent. The role of fathers, the role of coaches, the role of other teachers is so critical to sort of see the consistent modeling, you know, across the board. But just as you mentioned, you know, um many dads are guilty of saying, hey son, you know, suck it up, don't don't cry, boys, don't cry. And you know, coaches will go and tell their you know athletes, you know, take, you know, take that take what you deserve, take what, you know, that that ball belongs to you, um, grabbing someone by the face mask and saying, you know, don't show weakness. Um and but, you know, sort of truly understanding the power and the strength around being whole and bringing that wholeness to whatever role we have to play during the day, whether it's a caretaker, whether it's an athlete looking to compete, whether it's a student looking to perform and learn academically, et cetera. But are are there any lessons that you've seen to say what what are the ways that we can build this into the fabric so our young people can sort of see this almost 24-7?

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah, I I think, you know, one of the things you mentioned that I think could be a great uh entree for for young men is sports, right? You were you were an athlete uh and and you know, I I was an athlete back in the day and I coached sports. And I think that um, you know, sports can be uh I think a real place of helping young men learn how to manage their emotions well because it's an emotional experience for them, right? It's it's for for for for young guys who are involved in sports, it's probably an area where they experience a full range of emotions from elation over scoring a touchdown to you know grief over losing a championship game to fear to vulnerability to being out there on the mound in the bottom of the last inning, you know, with men, you know. Uh so so I think it's an area where uh you know we have the opportunity to begin to address um, you know, that's okay that you feel all of those things. And and it's okay to to feel those things without thinking that it makes you, quote, less of a man or makes you less of a competitor. I I think you can compete and be an emotional player. Plenty of guys have done it. I think we see professional athletes uh oftentimes we're we're in touch with their emotions, uh, who are able to cry, we're able to grieve. And uh and I think if we can kind of, you know, you I I I'm a big believer in use whatever material is there. I I think, you know, find young men where they are and and kind of look at what's going on there and see it, see what's there that can be built upon, that can be something that's life-giving for them. So I think sports is a great opportunity to do that. So, you know, maybe educating coaches or or having more conversations with coaches about how we do that in meaningful ways. And look, I'm I'm not uh I I love sports and I'm I think sometimes when you say things like this, people say, well, you know, we're gonna we don't want to turn the football team into some kind of crying drum circle. I that's not what I'm talking about. I think I think just recognizing that, hey, you know, when you're competing, there's a lot of emotions that are going through your body, and that's okay. And and you have you you you can express that. It's okay to say you're afraid. Uh, you know, if you're not, if you're going out on a football field and you're not a little bit anxious or afraid, you're you're just not being honest with yourself. And can coaches model some of that behavior? And where I've seen coaches do that, again, I think it's, you know, anytime young guys look at a man in their life and that man exposes himself in in in terms in emotionally uh powerful ways, you see the shoulders drop and you can see, you can see it happen that, okay, I've been given permission to do this too. So I think that that uh you know that modeling of of doing so is so important within schools. Um and I think part of that is, you know, uh you're asking practical things uh of you know, getting coaches together to talk about, just as you would with teachers, uh, you know, to have faculty meetings and things like that. You know, how many ADs are getting all their coaches together and and talking about, like, hey, how do we do these things with our play? Are we concerned about the the the overall wellness of uh of our athletes? And how can we together uh find ways to do that? Um one of the things that Seton Hall has a great uh a great tradition of is many of our athletic programs are involved in service activities. And I think that's a great way to do it. Our baseball team does a lot of work with uh developmentally delayed young people. And I think it's a great way for them to have the experience of saying, you know, as a team we go out on the field, as a team we win and lose, but also as a team we serve, and also as a team we pray, and also as a team, we eat together and we talk together. And I I think the more occasions you can create for that, I I think goes a long way.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

I completely agree. And I was also an athlete all four years of high school. I ran cross-country, indoor track, outdoor track, and you know, running taught me the the ideas of, hey, if you're in pain, you know, sometimes you have to say something. It's not always in your head. Um, and I just feel like many young men today, maybe they feel like they just don't have the words to express themselves. So do you think that many young men are actually emotionally numb, or have they simply just not been given the language to actually describe what they feel?

SPEAKER_02 32:25

I I think they haven't been given the language. I I think that they're they're not emotionally numb because uh I I see them turn it on. I see them go to it when we go on a Kairos retreat. I see it when we talk about uh things in in the classroom. Um I I teach a uh we have a program at the school uh teaching students mental health first aid, you know, how they can kind of recognize warning signs in their classmates. And I teach those courses and I see it in there. Uh I think, you know, a lot of it, I I I know I sound you know like a broken record, but I think a lot of it is giving them the permission and the space to do it because I think they want it. I think they desperately want it. And I think that uh, you know, that's why some of these guys on the internet are able to uh attract the following that they have is because they say, I see your feelings, I see that that you have these feelings, and I'm gonna help you voice those. But what they do is they voice it as anger, they voice it as resentment, they help them voice it in in the form of tribalism, they're giving them a place to come together and and talk about how they're feeling, except they're twisting that. They're twisting that into looks maxing, and they're twisting that into kind of this Andrew Tate form of stoicism. Uh because they recognize that guys do want a place to to live in that space. Uh what what what I think we need to do is we need to create uh better, healthier spaces for them to to be able to do that because I think it it is very much what they want.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

So how do you do that um at Cedon Hall prep in terms of those you know spaces? Is it you know through the curriculum and through the course that you teach? Are there are are there other times or spaces that uh you know you can you know convene that? Because what one of the uh there are a couple of obstacles I'd like to talk to you about, but one is the obstacle of time, right? And and the challenge of any educator in terms of squeezing everything into you know the the day. And given the rising awareness of of you know the impact of mental health on young people, but especially our young boys, and how they feel disconnected and they how they feel isolated and and that sort of impact and evidenced by suicide rates and disconnections and uh et cetera, et cetera. Um is there a new model that we need to look at? And what what are your thoughts, you know, on that?

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yeah, I uh you know, one of the things that that we've done of late, which I think um has been helpful, is, you know, how do you look at the ethos of a school? I you know, uh w when you're at all-boys schools, I think every every all-boys' school on the face of the earth, you know, centers itself around this idea of brotherhood. Um, and I think that one of the things that schools would would do well to look at is how are we defining that term? What does that mean for us? Is brotherhood just let's get everybody to the lacrosse game on Tuesday night? Is it just, you know, kind of circle the wagon type of brotherhood? And I think to give uh the school community the the language of how we're going to talk about that. So we just went through our reaccreditation process at Seton Hall Prep. And one of the things that we focus on, or the thing really that we focused on, and we've got a uh a great uh assistant headmaster, Dave Snyder, who's an alum of the school, was very big on this. The school's motto is hazards at forward. You know, so so despite obstacles, we we keep moving ahead. And uh and we focused our whole uh reaccreditation project around what does that mean? What does that mean for us as an institution? And what kinds of values and virtues does that call us to? And we began to identify a lot of the virtues that we wanted out of young people, things like resilience and and what would that look like? Things like creating a growth mentality, not being afraid to make mistakes, being vulnerable in learning, uh and and uh, and and then, you know, they kind of went to every every teacher through faculty meetings and so forth and said, come up with a plan of how you think you can do this in your classroom. Um and and sometimes it's in very small ways. Uh one of my colleagues, you know, said, hey, I always use uh, you know, we have online grade books or whatever. And I always use the comment sections to let guys know, you know, what they've done wrong. I'm gonna start using that to let guys know what they're doing right. And and eat something a little like that, I think, changes the the weather a little bit in a building. You know, it starts becoming more of a an idea that, hey, we're here to grow uh and we're here to kind of look out for one another. And brotherhood in the context of hazards at forward means that, you know, we don't only look out for each other at our best. We look out for each other when there are opportunities for growth. We look out uh how can we help the guy next to us be resilient? How can we look at the guy next to us who has failed and help him see that as an opportunity to grow rather than now you're less of a man or you're less than, or or in some way. So I I think, you know, on kind of this macro level, it's about creating a climate or a culture within the school that that that fosters that type of understanding of what brotherhood means and how we look out for one another. Uh and and then and then you try to get that, you know, even into the math classroom or the or the you know, the history classroom, you know, how can we do that in small ways that that create opportunities for growth for guys?

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Yeah, and I love the word in that saying, despite obstacles, we move forward. The word that I love the most within that saying is the we. Um and and I I also see, you know, through through our advocacy work, John, you know, we we started our advocacy work just supporting our daughter who had been victimized by sexual violence. And the we back then was my wife and I and our three daughters, but particularly my daughter who had been sexually assaulted. And and then understanding that we were isolated and surrounded by silence and shame and blame. And the we was very small, but the we kept on growing as we, you know, sustained ourselves. And I sort of imagined the same thing. I think I closed my talk to the boys with just telling them, the seniors, how they were going out into the world outside of the protected walls of Seton Hall, but they all had the opportunity to be the purveyors or ambassadors of that to expand, you know, that we going forward. Yeah. Um so I want to touch on a conversation briefly on another component of the we, because we talked about teachers or or coaches. Um now, parents. Um, you know, I've had an educator at one school tell me when the the head of the school talked about our kind of programming coming into the school, the father in a very macho way declared, listen, your job is to get my kid into Yale. My job is to teach my kid how to be a man. And you know, which which made me sort of tremble, right? Um but um, you know, I understand that, you know, um parents can be sort of understanding, you know, allies in this, or they can also be obstacles because you s as you started out by saying, we the collective we, us adults, have implanted this in our kids, right? Um subconsciously, consciously, you know, who who really knows. But what what is your hope? Um uh or what is your view of the current state of where parents are in this journey with all of us, right? Um, and what is your hope for parents um going forward?

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yeah, uh, you know, I I j just this just this morning I I posted an article I had written on Substack um that that has a couple things that that maybe I can address here. The first is listen, uh I'm a parent myself, I've made plenty of mistakes with with my kids. And I certainly don't mean this to uh to denigrate parents in any way, but I I can tell you that I I I've been working with teenage boys for 35 years, and and where I've been teaching seniors, I ask them every year, say, listen, how many of you uh have had a conversation with your parents about sexuality? And I don't mean, I don't mean a passing comment or or somebody, you know, your father left a condom on the bed or something. I mean a sit-down, over, you know, overtime conversation uh about bodies and women and relationships. I we're still in the single digits uh of guys who say we've had I have had that conversation at home. Right now, these are guys that are going to college next year, right? Jones, these are guys, this is this is guys that uh that that that now are going off to a place where they're gonna have uh, you know, a lot less, uh a lot more opportunity for sexual activity. Uh there's gonna be a lot more kind of cultural pressure that, you know, sexual activity now, now, now is the time, college, and and we're just not really giving them any education. So so you have this in-between, and and I I don't know that I have answers, but it is a source of frustration because you will get parents who say, I don't want the schools teaching my kids about sexuality. That's my job. But then when you ask the kids, that that's not being done at home. So, so what we've done is nobody has done it now. And and so again, that vacuum is filled by other guys, it's filled by the locker room, it's filled by online personalities, it's filled by, you know, just kind of cultural uh myth about what masculinity is, and nobody's having these conversations with them. So, you know, I I would love it if uh, and and I think schools need to do the work to get parents on board and maybe to have some of these discussions, say, listen, if you're concerned about what we're doing, and you know, let's have those discussions about how we can work together to to do this, to, to give uh the types of information that they need. Um and I'm not only talking about, you know, just how the body works. I'm talking about, you know, you know, what it means to to love a human being and what it means to be emotionally vulnerable and what it means uh about uh you know consent uh and agency and and all of those things. I I just uh I don't want to be a downer, but I just think those conversations just aren't happening. We kind of think they are. It's sort of this, you know, this uh this blind spot that we have where we think somebody else is doing it uh and it's just not getting done. So I I think that's a big part of it. You know, how do we get parents involved in the conversation without it seeming antagonistic or adversarial, uh, but saying, listen, we're all in this together. Um the the other I think the uh uh there's a couple other pieces to that. Um I think we also need to be more attentive to how we speak. To young people about sexuality when we do. And here's what I mean by that. I I think sometimes even our best efforts can be counterproductive. And I'll give you a big shout out here, Alex, because when you came to Seton Hall Prep, you said something that I said, this guy is dynamite. This is right on. You said, How do you think I felt uh when this happened to Cassie? And and and the guy said you're furious, angry, you want to kill the guy, you just strangle him with your bareheads. I said, Yeah, I felt all of those things. But then I realized that's about me, though. That doesn't do anything to help my daughter. Those are feelings that are about me. And I need to recenter my feelings about this. And that I gotta tell you, uh that's one of the most powerful things I've heard said in a uh a high school auditorium. Because usually uh what happens in a high school auditorium is you have a speaker come in to talk about sexuality, and it's uh it's like a purity or chastity talk. And the whole talk is about uh, and and we had a guy just a couple of years ago come to the school and he says, Hey, listen, if if you're out there fooling around with some girl, that's some other guy's future wife, or that's some some guy's sister, or or you know, that that you're that you're defiling now. And uh, you know, they have these little metaphors or they say, imagine, you know, if a piece of tape, and if this girl, I put, I keep sticking this tape to different ones, by the time it gets to you, it doesn't stick. That's what that's what a girl's virginity is like. And you say, man, talk about it, talk about a terrible message to send. This whole discussion is is is framed in terms of women are the possession of men, and really the problem with sexuality is that women are supposed to be on defense, defending their virginity, and men are like ravenous wolves, and really it's the woman's job to kind of fend us off. And uh, and you know, uh, I mean, that's kind of the way the world works. Men are the aggressors and women need to uh, and if there and if there is, uh if a woman is violated, the first question is not why didn't the man control himself? The first question is, well, what were you wearing? Uh, did you did did what were you were you drinking? Uh have you been sexually active with anybody else? So, so I think when we talk about the we, I think we need to get parents on board. I think we need to be more conscious of who are we having come in to speak to young people about sexuality. Um, you know, what what is uh within the Catholic faith, you know, what is the church saying about women and about sexuality? And is that feeding into some of these ideas of of possession that men have about women? Uh is that removing, you know, agency and autonomy from women? Uh so the we that you talk about, Alex, I think is a big we. I I think there's a lot of, I think it's and and it's not it's not gonna work unless somehow, and and I don't even pretend to know where to begin with this, somehow we can kind of get everybody on the same board in in terms of messaging uh of these ideas.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

The one thing I can say to that, despite ops obstacles, we move forward, right, John? Um that's right. You know, and and that's why I love that. But I have to turn it back to our teenage co-host here on this one, given John, what you just mentioned. And I tried to give you a little bit of warning in our chat chat um here, Jonas. But you know, uh tell us from have you had the benefit of any conversations with with your parents or any trusted adults about you know sexuality and and relationships? And if yes, did you find them sort of helpful? If not, would you have liked to have had some to or would you like to have some going forward to sort of help prepare you for you know reality?

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Um turns my parents definitely not um love them to death, but uh they definitely don't talk about this. Um I don't know exactly I don't think it's their like shortcomings and necessarily I wouldn't describe it as that, but um I think people approach the subject with too much fear. Um I think the most exposure I got to it was a semester of sex ed in high school, which really didn't do anything. Um it was like, oh, put this condom over uh wooden, you know, model the penis. I'm like, what is that gonna do to help me um in life? I wanted to talk about what it's really helping men, uh what's helping women was uplift uplifting uplifting all of us. And I just felt like whenever there was like healthy examples of masculinity or femininity in the room, they were never being uplifted. So I guess my question for you would be what are some examples of healthy masculine traits that you think should actually we should actually celebrate more that I just feel like are not being celebrated enough right now.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Wow, yeah, that's great. Um I I I think uh I I think first of all, uh you know, consent, when when we talk about consent, I think consent has to be we have to start thinking of it as the ground floor, not not not the not the you know a ceiling that uh you know we we need to get to. So I I think you know for men, we've got to get to a place where they recognize the mutuality of a relationship uh at every step of uh of the of the relationship, right? That that this is uh a relationship is between two human people, each with their own anxieties and fears and reality and life and personhood. Um it's not a contest. Uh women are not uh a trophy or or a conquest. It's a it's a relationship between two people. And like any relationship, like any healthy relationship between two people, there has to be mutual respect, there has to be conversation, um, there has to be listening. I I think probably, I don't know if this is a stereotypical thing to say. I think I uh I just speaking for myself, I'm a notoriously bad listener. My my wife tells me that all the time. I think, you know, she'll tell you that, uh, and and not in a terrible way, but but she'll say, you know, whenever I start to talk to you about something, you immediately go into problem-solving mode. And she said, sometimes I just want to be heard. I just want to, I just want you to listen to what I'm saying. And and she said, but I can already see the wheels turning in your head of, you know, how can I fix this for you? How and she said, I I don't I don't always need you to fix things for me. And I don't always need you to spring into action. Sometimes I just want you to sit and listen to what I'm saying. And and I think, you know, we would be well served to to uh again, it's it's easy for me to sit here and kind of throw all these things out without having a lot of solutions. I mean, if I had if I had all the solutions, uh, you know, I'd I'd I'd gladly share them. Uh, but but I think we need to teach men how to be better listeners in relationships. Um, I think we need to teach them how to be more open. I I think we need to teach them that it's okay that they are scared to death of sexuality, because I think most of them are. Uh so you, you know, a lot of this bravado and talk that we find in locker rooms is really just a a fear uh being expressed out loud, and that's okay. Um and that's something, you know, that when you have a girlfriend or or you have a partner that that uh it's okay to talk about those anxieties and talk about your own feelings about sexuality and to listen carefully to the other person's feelings about it. Um so I I think all of those things are um are skills that we can probably do some more work cultivating, not just with teenage, with grown men. I mean, like I said, a lot of this stuff, um, you know, a lot of this stuff I I'm uh I'm far from an expert on. A lot of it is just kind of being self-aware of mistakes that I make in my dealings with my wife and my daughter uh and with my son, um, and and mistakes that I have made that I have the benefit of, you know, being 57 years old and I can say to my students, you know, listen, this is not, I'm not a genius. I learned this the hard way. I'm I'm just I'm just letting you know that where I've had relationships and I've I've treated the woman in this kind of way, or I've made these kinds of mistakes, or I've said these kinds of things, it has not been good. Um and and where I have gotten it right, boy, I I have found those relationships. With my wife, for example, when I get it right, uh, I mean that that you know, your relationship there really soars when when you listen and when you do the things that a that a good relationship needs.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Well, so Jonas, I feel obligated to tell you I'm I'm in the same bucket, you know, as you. Um my parents never, you know, never spoke to me about anything regarding intimacy or relationships, uh, whether they be good or bad. And I was very deficient with that with my three daughters as well. And now I go around to schools and and you know, speak about topics that I never imagined myself, you know, speaking about. Um But the one thing that I always found interesting in speaking to boys, and maybe this is something, you know, you can even I think it's a safe one with your parents, is I love telling boys when I meet them um the rush that I felt when I held my wife's hand the first time. And asking young people, have you heard the story about how your parents met or how your dad felt the first time that he asked uh mom to go out on a date and she said yes, right? And getting these things, right? Because the the one thing I love about talking about consent is going back to the Latin roots, which means feel with someone. And and and it's so easy to just let the let people know. If you ever wonder what the heck consent is, just go back to the Latin roots of feeling with someone. That means you know the person, that you have a conversation going, you're you're being solicitous to what their feelings are, it's a two-way, you know, street. Um, and I do agree with you a thousand percent. We actually have a slide, you know, John, that talks about the bare minimum and you know, building diversity in our in our community spaces, educating people on consent, engaging our boys. That's just the bare minimum, right? And we should be, and I love the fact that you are aspiring to bring and lift the boys up to the best versions that they can be. And I I feel very blessed that we've had this time together. I I know we've gone past our usual allotment of time, and I feel like we could have multiple conversations on this, John. And and you know, we this is a audio podcast. We will show some clips on um, you know, social media so people can see, you know, who we're talking about. But um, you know, John, what I also love is talking to someone who looks like um, I'm I'm older, I'm 61. So one of my childhood heroes was a linebacker for the Chicago Bears. I don't know if anyone has ever said you have some uh inkling of looks there, but you have the the looks of an old school linebacker from the NFL. And and hearing someone speak with the clarity and the vulnerability and the emotion that you speak is um I I can only imagine how many young men you are touching with your work. So very grateful um for the work that you're doing because it's much needed, and you know, so grateful for you being generous with your time with us tonight.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Well, I'm I'm grateful also, Alex. And again, I I don't want to I don't want it just to to flatter you, but like I said, when when I was so blown away by by when you came in and uh the work that I have a right is doing uh is is so on target and so needed. Uh I'm so grateful for the work you're doing. I I hope you can continue to to grow the work. I mean, if we could if we could get you into uh speaking to every teenage boy in America, uh I think that would be a value added in terms of getting us to the place that we need to be. So I want to thank you for the work that you're doing. I know it it came from a place of uh that that maybe you you you would not have thought of when you were 25 years old. Um I I mean it it it started from from a place that was that was difficult for you, but uh talk about hazards at forward. I mean you you've taken something that for your for you and your family and especially for your daughter has been has been a uh uh you know a an obstacle and you've turned it into a way of of educating other people. So I'm I'm I'm grateful for that work that uh that your organization's doing.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Well, somehow I think John, we're we're gonna find ways to collaborate going forward because I've just thoroughly enjoyed um everything about this. Okay, excellent. And Jonas, thank you for having the best this evening.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Of course, this has been a great conversation.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Good luck with your final exams down in Delaware.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

Thank you. Yeah, one more, one more. So I've got this line. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Thank you so much for listening. Like and subscribe to the podcasts on all platforms. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five star rating and tell your friends about Aspire. Follow us on social media at I Have the Right To. Learn more about our student and executive programming at our website at IHATHRight2.org.