E76: Be Becoming Your Own Man | Jonathan Jacobs on Redefining American Manhood - Real Men, Real Conversations

In this episode of Aspire, Alex Prout is joined by co-hosts CJ and Vishudh for a conversation with Jonathan Jacobs, an entrepreneur, investor, marketing expert, and masculinity advocate working to redefine what it means to be a man. Jonathan shares how his father’s hidden alcoholism and death pushed him to examine masculinity, grief, and the pressure many men feel to be physically strong and aggressive instead of emotionally intelligent.

The conversation explores how father-son relationships shape identity, how boys and men are taught to police themselves and each other, and why many harmful norms are reinforced by fear, shame, and social expectations. Jonathan introduces the idea of “American manhood” as something socially constructed rather than fixed, and talks about expanding the meaning of provider and protector to include emotional support, community care, and vulnerability.

CJ and Vishudh bring powerful reflections from their own lives, sharing how their relationships with their fathers evolved through honesty, patience, and emotional openness. The episode closes with a hopeful message about choosing who you want to be, breaking out of narrow definitions of masculinity, and building relationships grounded in authenticity, accountability, and care.

To learn more about Jonathan Jacobs, visit https://www.jonathanjacobs.com/
To join I Have The Right To's fight for a world free of sexual violence, visit https://ihavetherightto.org/take-action/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Aspire, and I have the Right2 podcast, where we amplify voices, share stories, and drive change in the fight against sexual assault. We explore the critical issues surrounding student safety, institutional accountability, and survivor empowerment. In every episode, our goal is to provide insightful conversations with survivors, experts, educators, and advocates, giving you, our listener, valuable information, resources, and actionable steps to create safer environments and cultivate the culture of respect and consent. Welcome back to the I Have the Right to Aspire podcast. Aspire was created by the nonprofit I Have the Right to as a space for honest, meaningful conversations about survivor advocacy, prevention, and what it truly takes to create safer communities. This podcast is about learning together, leaning into courage, and uplifting the voices of people who show up every day to drive real lasting change. Before we jump into our conversation with today's guest, we want to take a moment to introduce our I Have the Right Two interns, who will be joining us as co-hosts for this episode. So today we're thrilled to be joined by our two student co-hosts and new to podcast co-hosting, CJ and Vish, amazing summer interns working on our aspirational masculinity programming. Hello, I'm CJ. Hello, my name's Vishn. Today, our guest is Jonathan Jacobs, an entrepreneur, marketing expert, investor, and masculinity advocate who is actively redefining what it means to be a man in today's world. Jonathan is the co-founder of Digital Natives Group, an award-winning marketing agency that worked with the major organizations like the NFL, Comcast, NBC Universal, and the Nature Conservancy. Today he serves as a fractional CMO, advisor, and angel investor, but his work goes far beyond business and marketing. Jonathan is deeply engaged in reshaping conversations around mental health and masculinity. From leading men walking, men talking groups in Los Angeles to serving on the board of a call to men, he is creating spaces where men can connect, reflect, and challenge harmful norms. He is also developing a powerful framework around what he calls American manhood, examining how cultural expectations shape men's identities and what it takes to rewrite that narrative. We're excited to dive into this conversation with him today. So again, Jonathan, it is such a pleasure to have you on our podcast. You know, we're we're thrilled to dive into a conversation about your work, but also about what got you to this space.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah. Absolutely. I know I'm super excited to be here today. Thank you all so much for taking time. You know, we're recording this on a Sunday. I appreciate that. And thank you for having me here. I'm excited for the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Excellent. And, you know, I think we're also really blessed by having this wonderful group of young men who, you know, rotate through and and bring these conversations, you know, to life. Um so CJ and and Vishud, I'm extremely grateful for you having the courage to use your voice and and put yourself out there in this way. So Jonathan, you've had a successful career in marketing and entrepreneurship. What sparked your shift toward focusing on masculinity and mental health?

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah, so um it started in the summer of 2020. Um, you know, as I always say, I live in Los Angeles now, but for my ego, it's important. You know, I'm from New York. And in the summer of 2020, I was moving from New York to LA. And we were living, my then partner and I were living in San Diego for a month before we came up here. And I got a phone call from my mom one day. And, you know, it's the middle of the work day, as happens to us. Our parents call us while we're working and they're like, hey, what are you doing? It's like, I'm working, you're interrupting me. So I ignore the call. And then she immediately calls me back, and the hair on the back of my neck stood up. We we are not a call-twice family. You know, we are planets who orbit a shared sun. And I knew that that was a call that would change the rest of my life. And I was right in in more ways than one. And to make a very long story short, what I would find out is that my father was having a terrible health episode. He was now in the hospital. Um, he would proceed to pass away after being in a coma for two weeks. And on his deathbed, I found out he was an alcoholic. Um, and this was something in 31 years that I had never known. Um, and because he was in a coma, I didn't have the chance to talk to him about. So it starts the journey by putting you out there and making you go, how does this happen within a family? How does the secret get kept? What else is hidden? What else uh has not been discussed before? What else is unmentioned and unsaid? And then after that, you start to say, well, how did this happen to a man? How did this happen to him? Uh, what made him turn towards the bottle? And while I would never ever sit here and say that addiction can be traced to a singular root cause, right? Addiction is a multifaceted beast that has so many triggering elements behind it. It is, however, hard for me to unlink his understanding of masculinity and gender roles from his addiction. And I do truly believe that it was one of the causes of his addiction eventually leading to his demise, because this was a man who very much wanted to be loved, very much wanted to provide love, but also had a very rigid understanding of how to go about that, right? He followed the traditional provider-protector model. You know, if I bring the, if I bring home the bacon, I will receive everything I want in return from my family and loved ones. And it wasn't that easy, right? We actually have to ask, how do you want to be loved? And share how do you here's how I want to be loved, and here's what that feels like and means to me. And I think his ability to ask for that led and the expectation he had that he would receive it, that that friction absolutely fed into what you know eventually led to his demise. And with that, started to make me realize that I never wanted this to happen to a father and son again. And also I never wanted another man to have to go through that. And that's what kind of got me started in the trajectory of going into this work.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

So I I want to jump in real quick on that because you said a word that just really struck me, Jonathan. You you said the word friction. And, you know, as you're saying this, and and thank you for sharing that. And I'm so sorry about how you lost, you know, your dad. And um, you know, and I think we're all familiar with the horrors of silence and and secrets um and the burdens that they carry. But, you know, you said this this word friction that I I just want to turn that around and and ask my co-hosts when when you were listening to that from Jonathan, you know, could you guys, I mean, I immediately went to my relationship with my dad and and, you know, literally was like rewinding, you know, videos in in my mind. But from you guys listening to what Jonathan said, is are there things that sort of flowed through your your mind, your body, your heart as you're you were listening to it?

SPEAKER_03 7:33

I used to have a very kind of transactional relationship with my father. So when I hear friction like that, that reminds me like when I didn't, you know, when I didn't do what he wanted me to do, because his aspect of love was very different in the 20s. He's he's matured a lot since then. But in the tw when he was in his 20s, he thought that, you know, if he asked for something, it's gotta be done there and then. And, you know, if I didn't do it, then you know, that I I'm the issue, and there was this, and you know, he's out having other kids, and you know, I'm having my issues with that. So it was like a thing of where if I asked for something, how am I gonna ask for that? And it was, you know, it was complicated and stuff like that. So when I hear friction, I kind of think of that relationship with between me and my father, where if, you know, you know, I have to ask for something, but then he has to ask for something, and it can't, we just can't have like a conversation, which you know, eventually we were able to remove that friction and have a serious conversation. But that took 15 years of my life. So that was a very deep conversation.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Well, that thank you for share sharing that CJ. And you know, my my admiration, you know, for you. It takes a lot to to ask to be an intern for I have the right to and and work on the topic that our org works on. But hearing what you just said, that that work that you put in and and the evolution of of the relationship, um, you know, well well done. And um we're I just want to ask you a question on that. Was was that a difficult process for you? Can you can you explain about you know the the fits and starts and and the the maybe the pain that you felt during that?

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Absolutely. So um me and you know, as I said, me and my father, you know, the transactional thing, it just it became to such a point where like I became so fed up with it. I, you know, in an immature way, when I was 13, I let I let all my anger out. I, you know, I exploded. I told him like there was we had a conversation and it ended up going onto social media and every and uh you know everybody can see everything on social media and he doesn't want his personal life getting out. So, you know, I was immature and I went out social media and I did that. And you know, he we had a conversation and he said that like he need, I he and I needed to take a step back from each other. So we took like six or seven months, and we I didn't talk to my father for that whole entire time. Like we needed time apart because we really needed, I needed to think about who what I want from my father and what I can like have that love for him and what that means to me. So he needed to take that step back. And eventually when I was 14, um, during the summer of 2023, I, you know, I started to get reconnect back with my father. I started talking with him again. I started, you know, actually being able to go to my father and say, you know, how was your day? And, you know, he was able to ask me that again as well. So, you know, taking that time apart was very needed, but it took, it was very slow. We needed to have the slow bits of like, where's you know, how's your day? But then eventually we were able to say, like, he was able to start telling me about how he was in his 20s and you know, what I meant to him in his 20s and what I mean to him now. And that and hearing that is what kind of made me mold myself into saying what I what the love for my dad is and what the love as a child, a man or a growing man or a young man at the time, to see what that really is and what my father has become and how I can see that he is a man now because he's able to talk about his feelings, he's able to talk about you know how his mental health is, he's able to tell me all of that, and that very much that inspired me to be much better than what I used to be.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah, CJ, I just want to say, first of all, kudos to you because I I can so relate to some of what you're talking about, and also at the age you are, I would not have had the language to do that. I still barely have the language to have these conversations and have that self-awareness now. And it's so impressive and inspiring to hear from you. And and also what I want to say is what you're saying is reminding me of, you know, one of the things I used to say to people after I found out that my father was an alcoholic is the information was such a gift because for my whole life I wanted to slap him across the face. But in reality, I was fighting him with one arm tied behind my back because what I needed to do was give him a hug, because that's what he really wanted underneath that exterior, was he needed the hug. And because A, as men, we are told not to communicate our feelings and needs, and B, because the primary emotions that we're allowed to tap into are things like frustration and aggression and anger. That was the only way I could figure out how to express my response to him was either by completely distancing myself and being disaffected, or by meeting his frustration with my own. And so I'm really, you know, hearing you, I'm like hearing the echoes of my own story on that too. So, like, I hope you, you know, I hope you never felt alone and that there weren't people going through some of those same things, but also hearing you talk about that stuff now. It's really incredible to hear the the learning process and journey that you've been on.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Thank you, thank you. Yeah, it was, it was, it was hard. It was rough. It was definitely rough. It wasn't, you know, it was definitely a rougher part of my life, but I'm definitely I'm glad that me and my dad were able to have those conversations and grow together. Because I don't, I don't really think that if we had done it separately, we would be in the relationship that I am now. Because I can tell you, I can I can text my dad right after this podcast and tell him, you know, hey, I'm feeling this, and he can text me right back and tell me how he's feeling. And it's a very I'm very grateful with the relationship that I can have with my father now.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Well, that that's uh I can picture it a future episode, CJ, if you're if your dad would come on to have a conversation about that. Because absolutely would. I I can tell you there are probably millions of young men and millions of dads that need to hear this message. I've got goosebumps floating all around me. So um amazing. And and and Vish, I want to turn to you now.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Uh yeah, so that friction on my side for me personally, like growing up, the relationship I had, especially with I guess my parents, uh and father in general, was more about like it wasn't about talking, but it was about like doing. It was like about actions. So, you know, he worked hard, he provided for my family, and you know, he showed up. And on the other side, you know, you know, I go to school, you know, I get good grades, you know, um, you know, I just be I try to behave myself, be a good kid. But we we never I guess had that conversation back then about you know feelings or or the struggles or any of that. And you know, I never questioned it because I guess at the time I didn't I I didn't know what a man would look like. I thought he was a man and I I thought you know that's that's what being a man looked like. Um so like I really thought you know a man was more strong, uh silent, just like a handle your business type of dude. I thought that was the stereotype at the time. But you know, it wasn't until you know I got older, you know, puberty, I realized a lot more things and started having my own struggles um that I realized I didn't really have, you know, the tools to deal with them because of I guess my past and the role model he was at the time. It wasn't really until uh certain point of time in my life where he really opened up to me. I think it was I believe it was a couple years back when his father died. That was one of the first times, probably the first time I've seen him cry. Uh that that really showed me uh another side of him and realized that you know I have to talk to him more, you know, I have to to start to acknowledge, you know, his emotions a little more because I feel like because of you know past actions and my assumptions, I never really thought that you know he had this side to him. Uh I feel like that friction that you were saying is like I feel like I lived a version of it without like even knowing it was happening until a certain point of time uh in my life.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Wow. And and when you saw your dad cry and and sort of realized, oh my gosh, my dad is is is bigger than the picture that I had predicted, you know, I'd thought about before. Um how how did you bridge a conversation with him? Right? I mean, because it must have been you know, I remember vividly also what the first time I saw my dad cry, and it was such an unusual, you know, event. And again, it was also around, you know, a a funeral. Um, but a as a young person then, you know, how first of all, it's amazing that you connected through all of that instead of burying, you know, things or thinking less of your dad, right? Because of that image or stereotype that was there. But you know, how did you bridge a a conversation and share emotions with your father?

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Yeah, that that day was around eighth grade for me. So I'd say that was 20, 23, 24. I I remember it very vividly. Uh, you know, just a quick walkthrough. I was just walking down the stairs uh in the morning, and then I see this dude, uh, my dad bawl out into tears. And it just felt it felt so awkward, it felt so odd. Um, I'd never seen something that that crazy, that serious uh ever before in my life, especially out of him. Like I've seen my mom cry, but just that just seeing him cry, him ball out into tears, become very emotional. It was it was very different. Um, I remember the first thing I did was I just sat down next to him. I didn't I didn't give him a hug, I just sat down next to him. I gave him my shoulder, I let him cry on my shoulder, I remember that uh very vividly. And and I just gave him a hug, I embraced him. You know, from there on, you know, he went to India to funeral, whatever. I was still in school, so obviously I couldn't go. And um, I think the day after he was very he was very quiet. Like he had all his doors closed. It was his father, it was he he meant the world to to my dad. His father was the reason why he moved to America, why he provided for us, why he worked so hard to get us to this point, this situation where we are, uh, certain wealth, uh, all of this. And um, I just started to making small talk with him, you know, small conversations. Like I'll see him cooking something in the kitchen. I'm like, hey, how's your day going? And from there on it escalated to, you know, us having these full-on conversations and going outside on walks, you know, playing tennis, playing basketball together. And and we've really grown to the point where, you know, on the weekends, we we go on hikes, we go on long walks, uh, we explore nature and we just sit down and talk. And it's just so amazing to me uh just how our relationship has grown. And, you know, if certain events didn't play out, I don't know if I'd be it at this point of where I am in my relationship with my father.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Vish, I can I I want to ask, it sounds like so much of this was driven by your recognition of his need in that moment and then saying, I want to actively work to build this. I want to build this type of relationship. Did your dad like become cognizant that you were doing that? Did he like ever openly address with you and be like, hey, I've noticed you're doing X or I want to talk more with you about Y? Or do you feel like it was kind of you were leading him subtly and now you've managed to build this relationship together?

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah, I think it was more of me passively doing it, like not directly telling him, Oh, we should just talk. I think I was just trying to build my own bridge towards him, uh, unlike the opposite, where we would bridge together. And, you know, naturally, just the way events played out, that that bridge just formed. Uh, and it was it was very beautiful, uh, something like that happening. And it was to the point where when I had my own problems, because obviously I was also going through things uh in high school, early high school, so sophomore year, freshman year, especially with like bullying, other things like that. It wasn't the other way around. I wasn't dealing with my problems myself. He was sitting down with me, he was helping me, you know, go through all that stuff. And yeah, uh, I I couldn't thank him more.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

So, Jonathan, I mean, how do you feel, you know, hearing this? I, you know, um, I I've spent 40 years in finance, I'm still in the industry. But this these conversations with the young men that I get the privilege to meet every week just gives me, you know, hope um in in terms of evolution, maybe accelerating a bit. Um, but I want to pivot it back to you and and sort of the the the question about and hearing about your own you know journey and and you know I had I started at the age of 50 on this, you know, after my daughter's sexual assault, and I realized my my masculinity was getting in my way of being a good dad, a good husband, a good family member. Um, and once those eyes opened, everything changed and I saw everything, you know, sort of differently. Um, but was it a similar experience and epiphany, you know, for you? And then tell me how did you sort of uh utilize that as a call to action? Like what were some of the first things that you did?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

You know, it's so interesting. Um I I have to say it's funny. Listening to to both of these incredible young men, like the first feeling I have is jealousy because I'm so jealous that I did not. Have this emotional awareness and intelligence at the age that they are. And now I'm guessing I'm about 20 years older than both of you guys. Like just thinking back on who I could have been at that age and what that could have done for my relationship with my father. But then also to your point, Alex, like gives me so much hope that if they're having these conversations now, how many other young men out there are doing that, and also how much further along on their journey they're going to be than where than where I am today when they're they're my age and then your age, et cetera. And it's incredible to know, you know, we are also these types of people may exist when I was that age, but also we didn't have the way to find each other. And so to know that these conversations are being broadcast and the courage that you both have to do that is just so amazing and inspiring. Um, to your question, Alex, I think the biggest thing that I started to understand after I had this kind of triggering incident was that I had divorced myself from masculinity and the idea of manhood in my life, you know, up to the point of being 31 years old. You know, growing up, I was a big kid, I was 280 pounds, um, I didn't really date. Like I also grew up in the era at the tail end of like the 80s era of Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger and and um uh uh and Bruce Willis. I came of age in the era of Tom Cruise and Will Smith, like all of these super macho action heroes, like being everywhere on screen, right? Baywatch still, you know, on the tail end of its television run, like everything was chiseled, everything was like clean shaven, and I'm growing up this like overweight, hairy Jewish kid. And I was just like, there's no place for me in masculinity. Like I am not represented on screen because this is not me. Like I'm a bookish, geek, geeky nerd, and like I'm just gonna say, you know what? Like, I'm that's not it. I'm not in that. Like, I'm me, I'm over here in my own category, and I'm gonna divorce myself from that entire identity. Because to me, then, masculinity was nothing besides the physical manifestation and like the and the protector provider model. Like it was those two things, a body type and those two words. And I don't think it was until I started this journey after my father passed where I started to be like, I actually get to choose to embody masculinity in the way that feels authentic and real to me. Like I have to come home. I have to come home to this because that's who I am. Um, and so that journey, it was actually really fortunate. What started this all for me was that right around the time this was happening, my first agency, Digital Natives group that you talked about, um, we specialized in book marketing and I got introduced to A Call to Men, where you mentioned I serve on the board. Um, they had a book coming out at the time called The Book of Dares, which is a wonderful book if you have a young man or a boy in your life helping them rethink masculinity and build a healthy relationship to manhood. And I did some of their virtual trainings, and it helped me start to understand both what is the relationship to masculinity I want to build, and also what is the relationship towards men's violence against women that I want to build and how do I want to be an advocate and an aspiring ally in that work. So that was really one of the first big pieces to that. And then simultaneously, it was to understand who who am I? Like, what are my values? What matters to me? Because masculinity is simply a part of humanity, right? It all filters up to that. So, like, who am I? What am I trying to build? And what is the person I'm trying to become? And so I think that was two really kind of big pieces for me in that moment. And so I started to think about it as like legacy planning almost. When I when all is said and done at the end of the day, like, what kind of man do I want to be known for being? And how what does that mean I walk through my daily life looking like? So I, you know, for me, that involves a lot of journaling. It involves a lot of reading, it involves a lot of rethinking my friendships in terms of not who do I need to remove and add from my life, but how do I change how we interact with each other and we engage? Um, so those were like some of the first kind of couple things I did. I know I saw you take a few notes, so I'll pause here. You might have a question.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

No, but you know, I I mean I have I have a lot of questions and follow-ups from this, but you know, something that I want to touch on. Um, you know, I had written it down before and you said it in in exactly the way I wrote it. You know, who am I? Um and I think that is something that um I think and I do agree with you, us as humanity, right, we all struggle with that. But I think particularly for boys, young men, older men, um, there's so many, you know, we we've we've deleted the term toxic masculinity from the lexicon of our org, and we've replaced it with socially constructed masculinity because I think that more accurately represents the state of affairs, right? The air that we breathe, you know, what what's being force-fed to our young people portrays what what you talked about growing up in terms of that body type and expectations about behavior and roles and restrictions on feelings and emotions.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Yeah, I have to say I love that. And there's a reason that's why I say American manhood instead of masculinity, because masculinity is just the or manhood is just the operating system. American manhood, Italian manhood, that's the that's something that gets installed. That's the software that comes on there. Maybe it's a virus sometimes, but we can always be remarkable. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah. Yes, I'd l I'd love the way that you put it as well. And I think by doing that, it allows us to open up a conversation that, you know, and I look at CJ and and Vishud and I see awesome young men, right? And I do believe, and this is coming from a father of a sexual assault, you know, survivor, where it took me multiple years to lose the anger and rage that was inside of me and look at young men as being beautiful human beings with unbelievable characteristics and potential. Um, and this shift of my lens to American manhood or socially constructed masculinity has allowed me to say, damn it, I'm gonna do the work with young people to say, how do we encourage and bring out the best in everyone? Right. And so, but I want to put a question to all of us, you know, on this right now. Um, you know, who are you? Who am I? Right? Um and you know, I don't necessarily need to hear the details, but maybe the struggle, right? I mean, may maybe I'll I'll start, you know, who am I? I I had a conversation with my wife last week where I like I tore off some of the layers and I said, Sweetie, sometimes I don't know who the hell I am. I know what I'm expected to be, right? I know what I'm I've been told I was as a young child, right? I know the cape or the the suit or the mask that I need to put on every day. But if you ask me who I am, it it is a struggle and something that I think is a lifelong, you know, sort of process. But hearing the clarity and CJ of how you guys just addressed so matter-of-factly, what you guys did, it gives me a lot of motivation and a little bit of shame as well, or jealousy as you said, Jonathan. That damn it, um, I need I've got a lot of work to do. But maybe I'll before going to CJ and Vishud, just Jonathan. I mean, when you you said that, those three simple words, who am I? Um, you know, how how where are you in that stage of of discovering that?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

I always just say I I you know, I think it's my Instagram bio. I'm I'm just a guy trying to be a better man. Uh and that's it. You know, there's space for mistakes there. There is space for learning there, there is a space for growth there. Um, and that's that that is who I am. And I also love that because it also means I'm also a person who is always in development and there is no destination. There is just the journey. And that to me is is the gift of life and a gift of a way of thinking about yourself too, which is that I will continue to be humbled, I will continue to fall, but I will also get back up because I have somewhere to go and I'm trying to get there.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

So so CJ and Vishud, how do you guys feel hearing adults that supposedly, you know, are quote unquote role models, you know, for you. And and unfortunately, the term role model, you know, unfortunately has the association of us being completely buttoned up and developed and on top of our game, right? But you know, hearing the word development and humbleness or humility, right? Um, I do agree with you a thousand percent, Jonathan. Those are such important things to acknowledge, recognize, and actually probably speak out loud. Um, because I think there is assumption that, you know, looking at the superficial, you know, Jonathan or the superficial Alex, it's like, oh my gosh, these guys, you know, have their S together, right? Um so how how do you guys feel about hearing that from Jonathan? And then how do you guys feel about that question of who am I? Oh I'll start with you, CJ.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Okay, I'll go first. Um I can answer the who am I first. So I actually in I can touch about this a little bit. I'm I'm very open with this. In the summer of 2024 and through 2023 to 2024, I had the worst years of my life. So I didn't I didn't know who I was at that time, and I still don't think I do, but I think I have a much better idea. I had a terrible, terrible, terrible two years. I went through a very abusive relationship, and then after that, I went to I what I thought would be a rebound, and it ended up being even worse of a relationship for me. And you know, it just I in 2025, I I had to ask myself, who am I and what do I want to do? Because I couldn't sit there anymore going from relationship to relationship, having this year-long relationship being on my mind because I'm still healing now today. And that was less than a that was less than a year later. So I needed to really sit down with myself and just like think. Like I needed, I could, I told myself my New Year's resolution was I wasn't gonna talk to anybody until March. I didn't start talking to anybody until around the beginning of 2026. So I really took 2025 as a year to answer who am I? And I got a better idea. If I am somebody who, you know, I know who like I'm self-aware, I know that, I know that I have emotional intelligence and I'm not gonna, you know, boost my ego and stuff or anything like that. You know, I know I have those things, but besides that, I'm somebody who wants to help people. I'm somebody who gets joy from being able to be like, you know, saying, I have the right to is an amazing organization, and I get to work with that. Like that is something that I'm proud of. That is something I want to say, I that is who I am. And that is what I strive to be. That's that's who I believe I am. I think, but beside that, I also think that I'm a I'm a struggling man. I'm a struggling young man. I'm growing, I'm going, I'm stepping in into literally the biggest, one of the biggest portions of my life. I go to college in a few months. Like I have many, many, many, many steps ahead of me that are, you know, laid out. But it's it's my time now. Like I don't have anybody guiding the way anymore. Like it's me. So, in terms of who I am, I have the mental down, you know, I've got the kind of physical down, but in terms of future, I don't think anybody will ever have the future of who I am ever down. And I think that that is a very important thing that I think people should kind of think about, in which, you know, you can never answer like, who will I be in the future? You can think about it, but again, there's gonna be unexpected things. There's gonna be turns of like maybe I might change my major in the future. There's gonna be so many different things in the future. And I, you know, I want to tell myself like this is who I want to be, rather than who will I be, this is who I want to be. And that is what I think the question in 2025 that that's what I really answered.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Wow. Okay, I I'm moralizing that. Who I want to be. Um, and um, you know, you it it gosh, I'm at a loss for words here. See CJ, it's it's crazy. Um but I think that's words of wisdom for all of us, right? Who do I aspire to be? I mean, what what we talk about is aspirational masculinity, and that's all centered around that. But that who I want to be, the way that you phrased it, CJ, had nothing to do with money or status or all the the the BS accoutrements that we associate with identity versus you know being able to take who you are deep down in your soul and losing all the nonsense, right, in our built-up accumulated muscle memory and freeing ourselves up to be that beautiful human being, you know, that each one of you guys are on the inside. Um, you know, one of our other co-hosts did a brilliant job of explaining every day in high school he's asked to eat a number of small pebbles, right? And small pebbles are digestible, right? You see something happening that's not cool, but you're afraid of what the reaction might be. Well, you suck down a pebble, right? And you do that, and each time you do it, it seems easy and but you're accumulating that over time, and you lose the ability to go up and down, right? To the point where you see stuff you can't even access you know, your your core uh, you know, identity anymore. And you know, this I you know, I want this podcast to get out to just let other boys and young men hear just exactly what you just said, CJ. You know, um, you know, who do you want to be? That's a great challenge for us to put out there into the atmosphere, right? Challenge young men, who do you want to be? And what do you want to be known for, you know, at the end of the day. I think all of us older guys had those regrets with our dad, it's because we didn't get to know our parents, because that generation no words, no emotions, things were bottled up. Um, and that I think has left a big gap in so many men out there that and that can probably be one of the reasons why there's so many men struggling, right? Um but so thank you for that, CJ. Um, you know, Vish, how about how about you?

SPEAKER_02 37:26

Uh yeah, on that question of like who I am, uh it's very is very spread out. So just for some like general context, uh as a young kid, uh even not now, but a little earlier in my life, I moved around a lot. So I was born in Austin, Texas. You know, we moved schools, cities countless times, more more than I can remember, maybe, maybe 20, 30 times. Uh, then we moved to Seattle uh for my parents' work, uh kept on moving counties, systems, and then here. But every single time, you know, I moved, I had to find or create a new version of myself to fit the like the wants of others. Like I had to change my entire personality, the way, you know, I dressed, the way what food I ate, just to to fit in and and try to uh to like create a new version of myself, uh to better the person uh how others perceive me. Because I cared about that a lot. Because uh, you know, it was pretty hard for me uh, you know, as a kid, especially the way I moved around a lot to create stable relationships. So the moment, you know, I had that chance to impress somebody or or do something uh to get my name out there, I I took it. Uh going into that 2023, 2024 year, I was in maybe my 40th school, uh middle school. So going seventh, eighth grade. Uh and from seventh grade to eighth grade, I completely changed who I was. I changed, you know, my character, uh, you know, the way I talked, the way I acted, the way I dressed for these eighth graders or you know, rising, yeah, us rising freshmen to see me because I knew like we were gonna stay here for a while. So I really wanted to wanted to assert myself in you know that community. Um that turned out to be one of the biggest mistakes uh of my life. Although, you know, or to this point. So like although I I made these connections, uh, you know, I talked to these people, I met these, and I quote friends, uh, that really, you know, took a turn and you know kicked my ass in high school. Because the first year of freshman year, uh, those people who, you know, were laughing and and talking and chatting with me were the ones that, you know, were almost verbally assaulting me and you know, clowning me on social media because I didn't do what they wanted me to do. And, you know, that really sent me into a spiral of, you know, trying to find myself in the process because I was lost. Um, to be honest, like I was a I felt alone, I felt lost, I felt like there was nobody to talk to. And um obviously I had, you know, support system around me to help uh get me through those events, but you know, that time I really needed to um like reflect and and try to blossom into something else. So when I had the opportunity to meet people uh and for them to see see me for who I am, I I took it the moment I the moment I saw that chance. And, you know, I took you know more things seriously. I took my education more seriously. Uh, I took, you know, you know, my extracurriculars, what I wanted to do, who I wanted to become. And, you know, I then found, you know, my student school student equity committee saw what these amazing people, teachers, you know, everybody we worked with did, and and it really caught my eye in a good way. Um I started getting more involved in my extracurriculars and um, you know, in that process, started building, you know, my true character, who I really was and who I wanted to be. I wanted to be somebody that helps others, uh, not somebody that, you know, was a follower or, you know, had to fit in these certain narratives or personas. Um, and you know, it it got me to advocate for not mine, but other struggling people, you know, out there in my school. And we started hosting these, you know, men's mental health awareness campaigns. And that really, you know, brought another light to me. I started talking about my own emotions. I started asking teachers to talk about how they felt uh in certain crises of their life. And, you know, that has really grown me into a better person, not the person who who I want to be at this current point, but I guess a better person, you know, in general. Um, and every single day I'm working to, you know, improve myself in better ways, not for how, you know, other people see me, but for how I want to see myself in the future. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Amazing, Bish. Thank you for sharing that. And you know, I appreciate your honesty and vulnerability there, because you know, um obviously we we don't rehearse these these podcasts and hearing you talk about asserting yourself. I wasn't quite sure what direction you were going to go in, right? When you were in that late, late middle school preparing for that transition, which is dreadful, to, you know, to high school. Um but I am so proud of you for recognizing that that was a destructive path. And again, this is something I hope a lot of young people hear um on this podcast, because I think, again, I I could relate, and and Jonathan, I'd love to hear from you about there's so many situations where that natural instinct of us men needing to assert ourselves, which means really becoming something that we're not, right? Um, in different situations or in different roles. Um and when when you're not acting authentically, there's only bad outcomes eventually that that can happen, right? Mess ups, screw ups, whatever you want to call it. Um so so thank you.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

I I I mean, I just I have to say I'm so impressed by both of them. First of all, I have to say, like, I'm so sorry you both had to have those experiences. I am so glad that you are now on the other side of them. I am so amazed and awed by your ability to talk about them and to use them as a means to helping others not have to go through those. Like, my gosh, you guys are my heroes. Like, this is this is amazing to hear about. I just I still can't get over the idea that, like, Vish, you are in high school and there are co-curriculars about men's mental health. Like, that is amazing to me and so incredible that you're using your own experiences to do that. And I think the one thing I'm reminded of in all of us having this conversation is just the part that's so unfortunate about this work, nobody ever comes to it, or nobody rarely does anyone come to it from a positive place. We have all suffered something. And that is what makes us all want to go, wait, there's got to be a better way, or there's got to be a different way of going about this. You know, whether it's whether it is bullying, whether it is having a traumatic event happen, whether it is something, you know, related to your parents, like it's it's always something that is the inflection point to go do this rather than us creating a culture of like curiosity and investigation. It comes from a place of having a negative incident. It's such a reminder of manbox culture existing and wanting to keep us inside of that. And that when we dare to try to step out, we get swatted down. We get made to feel othered and different. And I think the part of it that I've always struggled the most with and really been able to name in the past few years is just so much of manbox culture is people as insecure as I am wanting me to conform to their vision of masculinity. Because if I perform it the same way, it means what they're doing is right rather than their way of performing it being right for them and my way of performing it being right for me. Right. Like that's why I have such a problem with the coaching part of the masculinity comp uh industrial complex that exists, because so much of these coaches, they're not actually preaching a form of masculinity. They're preaching their form of masculinity and selling it back to you guys so that we all feel like we are doing the right thing, right? It's to validate their own experience of it. And so, you know, I think that that's why we see people try to swat us down when we're doing something beautiful, which is becoming ourselves in the process. So my gosh, it's just like this is really inspiring to hear from. I feel like, quite frankly, I'm leaching a lot more from this conversation than I provide.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

Quickly, Jonathan, if you don't mind me asking, or Mr. Jacobs, apologies. Um Jonathan, please, please, please. You you mentioned um, what was it, the men that will talk about um, you know, what their life experience was and then selling it. I that Andrew Tate, uh, you know, big name on, you know, the whole alpha male stuff. What did like I was I wanted to ask you, because this is you know everybody's main opinion now of like what masculinity now and days would be was, you know, people will gravitate towards, you know, Andrew Tate, you know, the that alpha male kind of thing. What what kind of where did you think of that now compared to like when, you know, when you were dealing with your father's stuff?

SPEAKER_00 47:08

I mean, I'll say I never looked at that with rose-colored glasses. I never aspired to that, right? Like I said, like I didn't even think about myself and a relationship to masculinity until my father passed. When I look at that stuff now, there's there's a lot to unpack there. That would be a whole other conversation. But uh, what I will say about it, that I can make a quick-ish answer to this question, is that that stuff is a grift. And what it is grounded in is appealing to insecurities that some men have and monetizing it for one person's gain. And again, there's there's a lot of other elements we won't touch upon, but what it's capitalizing on is at the end of the day, there's research from Equimundo that came out. Equimundo is one of the world's kind of premier gender justice-oriented NGOs that found that 86% of men still consider their primary role to be a provider. 77% of women feel the same way. And with that, we also live in an incredibly economically precarious time where economic anxiety is at, you know, by some metrics, an all-time high. So when you mix together the idea like I have to be a provider, with it's increasingly harder to provide, and you have someone over here who says, I can help you become a provider, that's that's it. Like it's the grift. It's I'm gonna capitalize on your anxiety to make money for myself because they're basically just putting them into a pyramid scheme. Like that is the glorified thing that these guys are selling with their universities. So, you know, the question then becomes, of course, how do you combat that? There's lots of different ways to do it. I'll again, I'm just gonna speak to the economic part of it here because it's it would be it's such a big beast to diagnose. But like with that, A, exposing the grift is really useful. But then also one thing I'm really passionate about is like when we see guys like that, they very much own a definition of provider and protector that is incredibly narrow. And a thing that I think we have an opportunity to do is say, we can still use that language, but let's expand the definition, right? Like, why compete? If guys believe they're providers, I why should I try to reprogram that when I could simply expand the definition, right? A provider doesn't need to just be the guy who makes the money to buy the food, but it's the guy who prepares the meal and brings the food to the table, right? A provider can provide mentorship, can provide a hug, can volunteer. A protector isn't just about protecting the nuclear family, it's about protecting the community. You know, providing is voting, right? What kind of a government do I want to provide for people? So I think when I think about like combating some of that, there's obviously again a lot of different things to it, but one of them is like take the way that they define masculinity and rather than try to compete with them and take them down, just take the terms, go inside and like make it in an insidious way of taking it, taking away the power that they have from it and offering this whole new vision for what's possible.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

So, Jonathan, so trying to expand on that point, um you are now working on a book called Redefining American Manhood. And you know, so I'm intrigued if if you're willing to share a little bit of um, you know, a preview of um because I think whether it's clavicular, whether it's you know Andrew Tate, whether it's the any other of dozens of you know people on on social media trying to take advantage and monetizing things, um what you know, what through your book, because you you know you phrase it, redefining American manhood, which I think is what you were just you know sort of saying with your insidious, you know, um rephrasing, you know, there. But what's one idea from the book that you think every high school student should have? Is there something that you know we we can preview and and encourage a lot of young people to go out there and check it out?

SPEAKER_00 50:57

So the book is really about me coming home to masculinity after my father died, right? Like I started I said earlier in the conversation, I realized I had completely divorced from it, and it was time to come back to it on my terms. So, you know, each chapter is pretty much part of my process of realizing what it was to define masculinity for myself. It was things like writing my own eulogy. It was things like figuring out how do I take sh, you know, shouldn't and couldn't out of my vocabulary and rephrase it as should and could. Um, but I would say the thing that I think is most important for us to do, and the the the chapter I'm most passionate about is the man badge, right? Whenever, when any man is born in America, they are deputized as part of the man police, right? And then immediately, as soon as we come of age, we get to police each other's behavior and say, that's a girly drink, that's not a sport you play, that's not a color you wear, that's not a thing you do. And I think one of the most important first steps I think any of us could take is just start to develop some awareness for when am I policing? When am I policing the behavior of others? And when am I policing my own behavior? When am I not doing something I actually want to do because I'm worried about what someone else will think, or because there's a voice in my head that isn't my own that's telling me it's a thing not to do, right? Like, am I looking at the mocktail menu and I don't want to get a Shirley Temple because it's red and people might think it look it ends up looking girly if it comes out too pink. And because of that, I'm getting a ginger ale instead. Or am I getting, am I just choosing not to get it because I don't like it, right? Like understand the um the real reason behind things. Is it a personal preference or is it a societal preference that feels like it's being pushed upon me? And so I think that's one of the most important things to learn because it's one of the most disempowering, because you're actually you're giving up your own autonomy and agency to the opinion of the crowd versus the opinion of yourself. And I think that was something I had to go, I really had to work through because feeling like masculinity was not a space for me was because it was the voice of what everyone else was telling me masculinity was. And I had to work to be able to say, like, oh no, no, I get to lay claim to this because I am a man. Whether or not I fit your definition of it, whether or not I fit your behaviors of it, this is my life, this is who I am, this is my gender identity. And whatever version of masculinity I have is a great version of masculinity because it's mine.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

Amazing. Um reactions from Vishut and CJ. What do you guys think of that? Does that resonate with you guys?

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Uh definitely a lot. And Vish, I, you know, when you were talking about, you know, what you had to go with your friends, your friends in quotations, you know, I that really resonated with me as well. Because I heard I when I used to play football, another one of my football teammates talked about that same exciting kind of experience. I also had a kind of go some with something with that as well. So to hear, you know, that you had you had to go based on societal preference compared to your personal preference on masculinity and you had to step into it. It's very weird for me to hear that because, like at a time when I was younger, you know, I would try and avoid that girly stuff and you know, be that, you know, I don't know. I I always I was always kind of the hyper kid when I was younger. I still kind of am, but you know, that's what people thought of me as. So I I wanted to be that kid. I didn't care what anybody else thought. So I had to go into that societal preference. So now going into that personal preference, that's and that was my biggest takeaway. I want to be that man where I could be, you know, I could still be hyper, but I want to be my own hyper. I could still be drinking also, side note, Shirley Temple's Bob. But Shirley, like I can I want to be able to drink my Shirley Temples. Like, I want to do things on my own personal preference, and I want to do stuff for myself to provide for others while also being able to provide for myself. Because being able to provide for myself mentally and physically is very important, other than just, you know, because I don't want it to be a give and then I can't have anything for myself. I need to have stuff for myself because that's just how life is. And Vish, I want to hear, you know, what you have to say as well.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

Yeah, I couldn't agree. Uh I couldn't agree more to, you know, what you were just saying. I think, you know, the biggest part of masculinity is becoming your own man. Uh that's really what stuck to me from what you just said, like being yourself, ignoring these, you know, societal, social norms, these pressures, and uh yeah, uh building your own character for for who you want to be, not others. I think that's that's really what stuck to me from what Mr. Jonathan just said.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Oh my gosh, guys, I am literally jumping out of my freaking seat right now because I love, you know, we have a silly tradition on this podcast where we end every episode with this enthusiastic, this is the greatest episode ever. This is the greatest episode ever. Um I just have with what you said, Vish, and what you said, Jonathan, you know, we we've got the name for this podcast. Be Becoming Your Own Man, Redefining American Manhood. Boom, right there. That is so powerful. And it's so good.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

The marketing is supposed to be my job, Alex. You're stealing us. I know.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

But you know, as you get to know me, Jonathan, and I hope we become serious friends, uh, because there's so much more I want to talk to you about. And and CJ and Vish, same thing. I want us to be quite become good friends through this. Um, but there is so much we can do with the collective voices, you know, right here on this call. The the other tradition, and I'll give you guys a second to prepare because we're going to go slightly off script as well because of my enthusiasm right now, um, and I might get scolded afterwards. But we ask every guest, Jonathan, to end with their own I have the right to statement. Um and I can't think of anything more fitting than to do that with this topic with this episode. And CJ and Vish, I want you guys to do it. I will do it as well. Um, because you know, that statement came from what my daughter faced in terms of her interaction with gender-based violence and the turning of the communities and her friends, ghosting, et cetera, et cetera. And it was really about an empowerment exercise for girls and other survivors of sexual violence to proclaim your rights. But as I've gone through my own learning journey and Jonathan, you know, diving into your work, watching your your informative and hilarious, you know, Instagram, um, the real John Jacob, um, everyone should check that out because it is it is entertaining and informative and thought-provoking. Um, but we need to create a movement for boys, young men, middle-aged men, older men, dads, whatever your role is in life, is to sort of get back to becoming your own man, right? And just being free to redefine American manhood. There's such a beautiful opportunity. I love actually the way that you phrased it, Jonathan, because it gives that that sense of opportunity of what is ahead for us. Right. We all have the opportunity to redefine American manhood in our own way. And what a beautiful thing that could be. So, um Jonathan, I'm going to put you on the spot right now and um ask you what is your I have the right to, you know, sort of statement.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

I have the right to take up my square foot of space in the world. And when I'm on that space, I have the right to manifest my identity and my experience in whatever way feels authentic to me.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Amen. Love it, love it. All right. And be sure to have what what is running through your your spirit now. I have the right to be who I want to be. Love it. Love it. And that was a very powerful way you said it.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Great. I have the right to define manhood in my own terms. Not the version I inherited, not the version the inheritance selling, uh, but what I actually choose. You know, I have the right to be strong and and be open, and I have the right to be my father's son and still be my own man. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

Gosh, you guys are putting me on the frickin' spot now. I have the right to stand in admiration of brave, courageous people who speak up. I have the right to be so proud of the courage of the young people that I get to face every day, and I commit to support them in any way that I can. And lastly, I have the right to redefine American manhood. And Jonathan, thank you so much for the work that you're doing. I'm so sorry what brought you, you know, to this work. And CJ and Vish, I'm also so sorry for what you're going through. But I can tell you, you guys are going to be so better prepared for all of life, what life brings going forward because of the work that you're doing now. And if there's a message I can leave for our audience, is life is filled with challenges. Life is filled with heartache. Life can be filled with trauma. And so many beautiful things can come from these things. It does take work, it does take effort, but there is a light at that end of the tunnel. Jonathan, I want to have you back so we can talk about uh men's mental health and the work that you're doing there, the concepts of loneliness, of isolation. You know, these are things we need to bring out into the open because there's an epidemic going on, as you've you've noted. And these things are okay. And there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and they're communities of people that will love you, will support you, will build community together. Jonathan, your your work is like a beacon to the universe, right? And I'm so grateful that um we met you in Brazil. I'm so grateful that you're on this podcast because having role models like you and letting our young people see it in action can be so inspiring. I mean, it was it's inspiring to me at 62 years old. And this will float my boat for weeks, I guarantee it. Um and lastly, CJ and and Bishud, thank you so much for your words of wisdom and your bravery and courage of putting your vote voices out into the universe. Um, but Jonathan, any last words for us?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

Gosh, I don't want to have the last word. I really feel like it should go to Vish or CJ. I mean, the all I can just say is I am so floored and I have such admiration for the two of you and for the work you were doing. Like, really, I knew about this work in the abstract. You know, like Alex said, I've had the chance to meet, you know, leaders in your organization before, but to hear young men like yourself putting voice to things that it took me 30 plus years to get to a point of being able to say, and gosh, I just I I feel for the younger version of myself right now. And I wish he had people like you in his life to learn from. Because like, I I don't know if you will if until maybe maybe you recognize it now, maybe you'll recognize it when you're you're my age or Alex's age. But like it is incredibly powerful, the the model that you are setting for people in your own age cohort and people younger than you right now. Like this, this is life-changing work.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

And and CJ and and Vish, since Jonathan gave you the opportunity, and any last words as we close out.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:38

Jonathan, thank you for coming on the Inspire podcast. One and two, I um I want to say that men's mental health is definitely something I would love to hear you talk about more. And um I want to say that if anybody is ever struggling or anything like this, this is something that has to do a lot with men's mental health. I'd like to say that you always have someone to go to. You always have that shoulder to cry on. And if you ever need a place, there is somebody that you could talk to, no matter who it is, whether it be a therapist, a trusted adult, even a friend, you have anybody you could talk to. You have somebody to talk to. Fish.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

I couldn't have said it better myself. I think I think you wrapped it up nicely.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:25

Beautiful, beautiful. Well, these conversations are not always easy, but they are absolutely necessary. By challenging outdated norms and creating space for honesty, connection, and growth, we can all play a role in building a culture rooted in respect, empathy, and accountability. To our listeners, especially the young men tuning in, this is your invitation to reflect on what kind of man you want to be. Thank you so much for listening. Like and subscribe to the podcasts on all platforms. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five star rating and tell your friends about Aspire. Follow us on social media at I Have the Right To. Learn more about our student and executive programming at our website at Ihatheright2.org.