MAHPERD "Voices From The field"

Assessment: The Untapped Power in Physical Education

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Josh Ogilvie brings over two decades of physical education expertise to this eye-opening conversation about transforming assessment practices. As a secondary PE teacher, provincial association president, and curriculum developer in British Columbia, Josh shares practical wisdom that challenges traditional approaches while offering accessible alternatives.

The discussion travels beyond surface-level teaching strategies to explore what truly constitutes quality physical education. Josh articulates how intentional planning and responsive teaching create meaningful student experiences, contrasting this with the reactive approaches some educators default to during challenging times. His candid admission about abandoning fitness testing early in his career opens a powerful conversation about how traditional assessment methods can actually undermine student confidence and motivation.

Josh Ogilvie shares his expertise on assessment in physical education, advocating for intentional teaching approaches that elevate student learning and teacher satisfaction. Below are some of the topics we discussed. 

• Intentional planning and responsive teaching leads to more meaningful student experiences. 
• Traditional assessment methods like fitness testing can humiliate students who aren't top performers.
• Ipsative assessment focuses on personal improvement rather than comparison to arbitrary norms.
• Effective feedback provides context to praise and suggests next steps for improvement.
• Student surveys and observation help tailor curriculum to student abilities and interests.
• Connecting with educators outside your school prevents isolation and burnout.
• "Meaningful Physical Education" by Tim Fletcher and his colleagues offers valuable insights through teacher stories.
• Technology and AI can save time on assessment tasks when used with professional judgment.
• Finding one thing that brings excitement back can help teachers avoid burnout.

Josh's website https://www.jogilvie.com/ (hosts information about his teacher coaching programs and the upcoming memberships he will be launching soon)

Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/joshogilvie.bsky.social

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-ogilvie/

Twitter: https://x.com/joshogilvie4


Resources:

Meaningful Physical Education


Jake:

Hello and welcome to Voices from the Field, a MAHPERD podcast where we talk with educators in the field to hear about their perspectives and experiences. My name is Jake Bersin, advocacy Chair for MAHPERD, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Josh Ogilvie. Josh Ogilvie is a secondary physical and health education teacher from British Columbia, canada, and president of a provincial specialist association for physical education teachers. He led the development of his province's K-12 physical and health education curriculum, taught pre-service teachers in education in kinesiology and coached in-service teachers in a master of education program. Josh is also an associate with Solution Tree and leads workshops, facilitates professional development and presents at conferences across North America on assessment and grading, he has extensive firsthand experience helping teachers and schools refine assessment practices to elevate teaching and improve student achievement. Welcome, josh.

Josh:

Thank you, Jake. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and speak with you and just find ways to connect and help those who are in our field. Thank you.

Jake:

Absolutely Pleasure to have you. It's so exciting to be in this space with you Before we get started. Do we have anything that's making you smile these days?

Josh:

At the time of recording, we're going into week two of our spring break, so, yeah, that brings a smile to my face. Um, but just having these opportunities right now with with my kids they're seven and five and just loving life right now, just really tapping into that energy with them. We're out of the swimming pool today and we're getting ready to go on a little localized trip in the next few days for about a four or five day trip. So I'm really excited about that and just spending some quality time with family before jumping back into the swing of things in school.

Jake:

That's great. We all need downtime from the hustle and bustle of life. So tell us a little bit about who you are and what your role is currently.

Josh:

Yeah, thanks, I am a teacher. I am in year 22. And every time I say that number it doesn't get any easier. It's hard to believe how quick my career has gone and moved. So yeah, year 22 teaching.

Josh:

I'm also, as mentioned earlier, I'm president of our Provincial Specialist Association, which would be kind of the equivalent of yourself in your state organization to try and support and advocate for our pha teachers k through 12 here in addition to that, I work with a lot of national organizations here in canada trying to to connect our country is so vast geographically speaking and just trying to connect each other and help each other move forward because, unlike some places, our curriculums are jurisdictionally developed and run and our neighbors in Alberta can have a very different curriculum than us, a very different perspective. So we're trying to connect ourselves and move the field forward together. Aside from that, as mentioned earlier as well, I love working with teachers and supporting teachers through PD and I've been working with Solution Tree for a couple of years. Love that. Been doing the working through North America with PD teachers for over a decade now, wow.

Josh:

And I mean, I'm not going to get into my big story about that. There's a deep story about why, but I think we all know so much PD we go to is like this sounds great. How do I use this in my class? How do I use this in my subject area?

Josh:

And after so many years of being frustrated by that, I just kind of like, ok, I need to, I need to make things better for myself. And then I started doing that. People started saying, hey, can you come tell me what you're doing? Can you talk? To me about this, and so that's

Josh:

and it's just something that kind of fell on my lap and it's just another something else in my career that really fuels my fire to keep pushing. It's just working with teachers and the context that they have and trying to amplify their practice in ways that are meaningful for them.

Jake:

That's fantastic. So you said a couple of things. So you're working not only at the state level, but also at the, the district and even global level. And then you also mentioned the different provinces. What are some commonalities? I know you mentioned differences, but what are some commonalities between different provinces in regards to physical education? Are there any?

Josh:

yeah, no, I mean everybody's got like lack of funding, you can't get a substitute teacher and but beyond all that like stuff that makes you pull your hair, I think, especially here in Canada, is is the really? There really is a big push to kind of look at our curriculums and not from a policy perspective? We're quite lucky up here. The policies and the the how they intervene in classes is less severe than a lot of my colleagues down in America I hear. I'm just like sometimes I hear stories and it is nightmare but just really trying to revise our curriculums that understand the kids that we're teaching today but also understand ourselves.

Josh:

So, rather than burning ourselves out, how can we create a curriculum, how can we create a program for these students and ourselves that are going to meet everybody's needs? And I know that sounds like a whole lot of romantic stuff, but it's really paying attention to the teachers and the students. We share lots of ideas, lots of advocacy pieces. There's a province on the other side of our country that just spoke with the government and got them to implement mandatory k-12 and then like minimum time frame for all grade levels to have in PE class, when a lot of our jurisdictions there isn't especially for the elementary years, depending on where you're at right oh, it's kind of a mess, but I think one thing that's great is where we'll have these conversations and like, hey, this is working for you.

Josh:

Let me try that in my jurisdiction.

Josh:

And here's something that's working for us. Why don't we get?

Josh:

together and collaborate and try to move things forward.

Jake:

Right, and that's where having a thought partner or getting to having the opportunity to get in these groups, you find out what other folks are doing and you can kind of emulate what they're doing. That's great, absolutely. So this next question how would you describe quality physical education?

Josh:

Yeah, you know I love that question. I'd love to have like a workshop on that because you can really dive deep, because sometimes you give a really superficial answer like, oh, make sure kids are having fun, and blah, blah, blah. But to really dive down deep into, like what is it in us as educators? Where's our mindset? What's informing that? So, like some of the things I'll mention aren't going to be mind-blowing to folks, for example like we want to make sure that kids are engaged and participating.

Josh:

We get all that. I think something that really transformed my career probably after year five or six early in my career is I realized a lot of the things I was doing were not intentional. What I mean by that is my planning, my instruction, my response to the students in front of me wasn't so much intentional as much as it was reactive.

Josh:

So I think one of the things that I learned from my career to make things.

Josh:

Quality is my planning and teaching had to be intentional in terms of here's where the aims are. Oh, we're not getting there. What do I do versus we're?

Josh:

not getting there, all those kids, you know, and it's like it's just being really intentional in terms of what am I trying to do today. And, of course, depending on one's context, that'll look very different. Some contexts are much worse than others. Like I've worked with teachers who see kids once every two weeks for 20 minutes oh wow. But even in that that's the worst case scenario I've ever seen, but even that it's just like we can still be quite intentional to to the places where they see kids every day for like an hour and 20 minutes. There's a lot we can do and I think one of the things that we can really do to make sure things are quality is all that fire and passion. That stuff that got us into this field is making sure that we're bringing that forward in our teaching and more that it's how it's landing with the students and their learning.

Josh:

Because a lot of times we know like there can be an endless amount of things that go awry in our classes. And it gets, especially when the seasons change October like we know what happens in October. You have these best laid plans and then seasons change, it gets darker weather patterns and it's like, oh OK, I just want to get the kids moving. I'm so exhausted. But having a plan, how am I going to teach these kids? How are they doing?

Josh:

And how do I know?

Josh:

that things are going well or not Well and then adjusting to that and all those things can really, when we do that, we can really bring out these meaningful and personalized learning experiences for the students and I would say this to educators as well but it also helps us personalize our journey so that we don't just feel we're doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, which can be very common in our subject area.

Jake:

So two things you said that stood out to me was the adjustments to practice, and also you're talking about you know, being intentional. So that tells me that you're very reflective in your teaching and how you, you know, go about teaching their students. Now remind me what grade level again, are you high school?

Josh:

Yeah, high school where I'm at now. I'm in a different district now than I was for most of my career here in British Columbia. Our high school starts in grades nine to 12. But for 17 years of my career I taught grades eight to 12.

Jake:

Eight to 12. Okay, so middle school folks are a little bit different right than the high school. You know I've been doing a lot of work with middle school.

Josh:

And you know it's elementary as well, but middle school, there's an energy that you cannot replicate, no matter what grade level. Middle school is a world unto its own, and I like it myself. I actually love it. It's a lot of fun, right, but yeah they keep us on our toes, right?

Jake:

Oh yes, oh man, yeah. So, josh, I'm actually going to skip this next question for now, because we'll dive more about that later. But what I know, you're really passionate about this topic of assessment, right? You've given multiple webinars, seminars on it. You're an expert in it. What are some key points that teachers can take away and be cognizant of when it comes to this topic?

Josh:

Now, I know we can't give a two-hour thing here, but just some points, you know it's usually, when I start a session with teachers on assessment, I always ask if it's one that they volunteered or signed up for. It's like what led you here, Because it not this, this, this glory topic where people like, yeah, I'm excited for it my journey into assessment was from one of the most horrific experiences, not just in my personal or professional life, but also personal.

Josh:

I won't go into that one, but for me it was realizing a. It's not as hard as I thought it would be. What I mean by that is I knew my major area of weakness coming out of my college is they didn't do anything around assessment. I think there was maybe like in one class. I think we talked about it for a half hour.

Josh:

I had no clue. So, like I asked my colleagues, I was teaching with the first three years like what do you do? And I'd only ask that question come report card time, and everybody I asked had a different response. So I was like I don't know what the heck I'm doing.

Josh:

And I knew that.

Josh:

But then when I started to, when I realized I need to make a shift in my career, and I got over the. I can't do this. I don't know what I'm doing, and I saw things like oh you know what? It's actually not as hard as I thought it would be.

Josh:

Now.

Josh:

I'm saying this many years into this world, so where I go with that is what really sparked my brain into thinking about new ways of assessment was when somebody challenged me and said don't tell me what your kids are doing in class, but what are they learning?

Josh:

I couldn't answer that question because I could say, oh, you know, like tomorrow we're doing basketball and we're going to work on right hand, left hand, dribbling. And the guy was like, okay, great, but what's the takeaway? What skills, what kinds of like, what do you mean? They're dribbling? And I knew what he was doing. He was pressing for more and I couldn't articulate.

Josh:

And so, when I couldn't articulate, and so when I, when I think of this now and I tell teachers now, it's like, at the very least, what are your kids going to be learning tomorrow? How will you know that they're learning it and what will you do next with that? And those types of questions can can take something that can look super complex and try to simplify at least a mindset idea of like how do I begin to envision this? Because if our mindset is like I can't, I can't assess, because, hey, I'm worried about kids losing activity time, side note, no, it's not a competition, they actually complement each other. I know, like early in my career I would do things with students. I would do the traditional skills testing where one kid was performing and everybody else was watching. Yeah, I haven't done that in decades, right, it's not authentic, right?

Josh:

No, it's not, and that's what you want Exactly. You want that authentic assessment.

Josh:

So, like, what you're looking for is happening in the environment that is intended to occur. That's how you know things are going well.

Josh:

It's like you're not going to teach your kids how to drive playing a video game.

Josh:

They give them the car keys and say, ok, go to the corner store, like if they're not able to actually perform the skill, then you don't know how they're doing and so really putting them in that environment um to to see how they can do that and perform that skill or, you know, demonstrate that conceptual understanding, depending on what you're assessing, of course, right.

Josh:

So just being cognizant of like, what are the kids learning? How do I know? And of course you need some sort of criteria to understand. Can't just go and gut reaction, because if kids don't know what they're doing, then they're sitting there and they're wasting cognitive bandwidth trying to understand what am. I supposed to do?

Jake:

So some of this criteria are we talking about, like I can statements, that success criteria you absolutely, if you want to go with the I can statements?

Josh:

I tell teachers all the time, whatever you're doing. If you're doing, I can statements point from. Whatever it is like, have it visual, talk with kids, model it, show it and. And then when you're giving feedback and this is something else a lot of teachers are like well, how do I get feedback? It's like if you don't know what you're giving feedback on, it's really hard to get feedback. We can give praise, good job, well done but nothing substantiates that. So if you can say good job on flicking the wrist on the basketball shot, I'm just using that for an example if you can give context to the praise.

Josh:

That actually gives kids an idea of what they did good or well on and then some now try this like what's the next step for them to do and those don't have to be long conversations, like a lot of teachers are giving feedback already and I always encourage them. Just take it one, like maybe four or five words more and just what are they? Doing good or well at what is that next piece?

Josh:

and then you know, you'll see, it's actually not that hard because we do it all the time in class

Jake:

I really like how you mentioned this, because you're focusing not only on the positive but also saying I wonder what you can do next to improve. It's kind of making the students think themselves right, giving them the answer they of. It's kind of like that inquiry approach. Where they have to, you're guiding them, facilitating, but they're also kind of figuring it out for themselves, right.

Josh:

And this is something. I say as well. I teach all the time. We have this inner drive. We want to see kids succeed. That's awesome. But if we kids the the tips of exactly what to do, they're going to replicate.

Josh:

But if we give suggestive feedback for example the other before break I was working some kids on throwing.

Josh:

It's like what do you think would happen to your throw if you step back a little further and carried your back foot forward? I'm talking about weight transfer and all that.

Josh:

I didn't give those clues. What do you think? What?

Josh:

happened with that? I don't know he tried it and like, oh, I threw it further. I'm like, okay, so let's explain why that is right, you give some suggestions and I know it might take longer, but the idea is you want the kids to improve the performance, not replicate what you're telling them to right and of course you know I feel for the teachers like I've got 60 kids in my class and, yeah, that's going to take some finessing and it's going to take some work with that, but the idea behind the feedback is what am I doing?

Josh:

well Then, what is the next step?

Jake:

Right, and once you can do this process with a few students, I'm sure it gets easier and easier as you get more proficient at it, right?

Josh:

Absolutely.

Jake:

You mentioned 60 students. That was actually going to lead me to. My next question is here in the States we have PE depends once or twice a week, depending on the district, but our students are 24 to 27. How is PE different, in your experience, from Canada to the States? Like what may be some, some differences you've seen, or even some commonalities, but let's start with differences, differences, you know, and this is, this is of course mass generalizations here.

Josh:

So if I say anything to offend a listener, I don't know you, I don't know your background. In my experiences of the last decade plus working with teachers PE teachers in North America, some of the difference, I would say culturally speaking, athletics is so much more deeply ingrained in American culture than in Canadian culture, which probably explains why we don't get many Stanley Cups up here and a lot of things.

Josh:

Where I'm going with that is, I have seen more people tend to be open and welcome to sports being all thing to do or a method of using, versus PEs about sports. In a lot of sessions I've run down in the States a lot of the teachers will come up to me like I love what you're talking about, assessment and grading, but I've got you know everything is team-based sports. It's all competitive based, whereas up here that that's still implemented but there's it's not as the reason. The challenge to moving I don't want to say move away from it because it has a place the challenge of creating something where it has a place versus it being the place, tends to be easier.

Josh:

Discussions I have found up in Canada than in the States, but it's not an either. Or I've also found the... I don't want to say reliance, because it's not that. What do you mean? We can't do fitness testing? Why wouldn't we do fitness testing? I have found to be a lot more that discussion and that like "huh tends to be a lot more presence in the American colleagues I speak with.

Josh:

Like I said, I'm year 22. I haven't done fitness testing since year two. I don't know many teachers and it does happen up here but I don't know many teachers that are ride or die with got to do fitness testing for grading purposes.

Jake:

It may be part of that reasons. We have, you know, of course, you know the fitness Gram and the Cooper Institute. We have all these institutions that have kind of made these fitness tests. I don't know that they have the same thing in Canada, but it's pretty common here. So, yeah, I do hear that as well. You know how do we, how do we get, how do we test our kids, and you know how often do we test them, and I can't test them because we have 62, like you said, 60 students. So I think, if we're creative, though, when we find a way to, like you said earlier, test authentically and have students. I went to one of your webinars before and you talked about ipsative assessment. Yes, I really like that. So just just describe for our listeners what, what, if you could, the idea of this ipsative assessment, because I really like that.

Josh:

Um good, so yeah, yeah and I want to say for the record too, because sometimes you have this conversation like you bring up fitness testing and people like to camp in one of two camps, and it's very rarely is anything one of two.

Josh:

It's either for or against, like no, it's a tool, it can be used in a lot of different ways, and I love the idea of personalizing fitness. So, like the learner, the student, each person's on their own journey, because that is what's really happening. And rather than coming up with these, these norms, which, if we haven't studied where the norms come from, that's a problem, but that's a different story so the objective assessment is basically it's a personalized form of assessment where they are comparing most current progress or most current goals results whatever with previous and then also throw kids into like

Josh:

what worked, what didn't. And and if you think of what we as adults do, those who who exercise regularly is they will likely hopefully at some point set their own goals and then at some point they're going to say did I reach them or not? What do I need to adjust? And that's the whole Ipsod of assessment piece is they're compared to themselves and how did they progress or not from the previous time they did a test or an assessment of some sort. If I want to do my goal is to do 30 push-ups and I can currently do one. If the next assessment or check-in, whatever you want to call it is going to be in a month's time, hopefully I can do like three or four. If I'm still doing one, then I'm like, okay, I haven't progressed, right. What did I do between that assessment, this one, what do I need to do to change the next one right?

Josh:

so the whole idea is really putting the onus on the student to what is what's meaningful for you. What goal do you want to achieve? And of course, this is going to be foreign for so many kids, so you work with them about how can I develop an assessment or an action plan to get where I'm going.

Jake:

Setting the goals for themselves, and that's and.

Josh:

I've done this for so many years with kids, and something I try to do, especially early on in the course, is make sure they understand a what are some exercises that can work in different muscle parts, how to perform them, but also how to make sure you're you're.

Josh:

It's challenging enough, not too challenging and not too little, but challenging enough that you can actually use this as part of your action plan, depending on which aspect of fitness they want to target right, and it's so personal too, because everyone's going to be at a different level, right, and that's you take that whole thing like like I've done, seen so many people do and I did it early in my career where everybody's doing at the same time and you pace the norms on the board and either than first year because I thought that's what we had to do is we put everybody's name and you know everyone's seeing whose results, and that is just humiliating if you're not in the top two or three, four people.

Josh:

And it really is the antithesis of what we want to do as PE teachers. You want to instill that inner confidence that, yeah, I can succeed. Even if I'm not even close to the top, I am progressing.

Jake:

No, that's really fantastic. I really yeah, that really stood out with me. The Ipsodive assessment in compared to some of the other ones that you know, more traditional assessments, yeah, yeah, your skill-based ones. So what advice would you give to somebody new entering the field? You know, somebody who just graduated, or somebody who, just who might just new in 2025, somebody new?

Josh:

Yeah, you know's. It's great you're saying that, because I speak with so many, especially up here in canada. I speak with so many pre-service teachers who were just about to enter the field and one of the things I say to them all the time is a thank you for reaching out to me, but b find your people outside of your school, wherever you are, because you know I I can speak a lot from the high school level Like in our offices, we're always together, but it is very it can be very lonely place, especially if you're trying to do something that is not quote unquote, on par with everybody else or not what everybody else is doing, like the idea of group groupthink is so.

Josh:

My experience is like if you go against the grain, oh my God, like I have had people try to get me fired because I'm trying to do something different. Right, and it's intense, it can be intense and if you're not connecting with people outside of your school setting.

Josh:

this could become like. Is this my reality? I don't want to feel this sense of dread, the sense of I don't want to be here, and it's like we went back to earlier, collaborating with others, like the more you can hear what other people are doing and sharing, pick up ideas and share ideas with them, the more you're going to feel connected to the field and inspired to try something different. So I guess I would say that to beginning teachers is as much as you can focus on your job, but if you can connect with one or two people outside of your school, you got social media which good and bad, depending on how you choose right.

Josh:

It's a love-hate relationship, for sure, but just really trying to to extend your network so you can learn not just from the people you're with, but people that you can connect with outside of your school setting I love that have somebody who shares the same you know kind of um ideas and thought processes.

Jake:

You can bounce ideas off each other and just as a support network, as you mentioned. Because, yeah, no, I agree with you when you're trying to do something to better yourself or better the profession and it goes against the grain of what other people think it could be a challenge, so I totally agree with you. So, josh, you've been on many webinars, you've created different webinars, you've done many things, worked for Solution Tree. What are some resources that are available for teachers, pe teachers out there?

Josh:

Yeah, it's in terms of there's a number of resources out there that you know. There's a couple of books I can't remember who published them. I apologize if I'm butchering the name. I can't recall them. But there's a couple books I can't remember who published them. I apologize if I'm butchering the name, I can't recall them. But there's definitely some books out there around assessments. One of the ones that I really like it's not an assessment one, it's Meaningful Physical Education. Okay, the little green book it's thin, yeah.

Jake:

I think I saw that on social media actually, yeah, yeah.

Josh:

F social media actually, yeah, yeah, and is it fletcher?

Jake:

yeah, yeah, exactly, fletcher, deidre glady, there's a whole bunch of them.

Josh:

Yeah, okay, yeah, and it's a great one because sometimes, like you read, you read the facets, the pieces of what meaningful pe framework are and you're like, okay, it's not that hard. But what you do in that book is you hear, you read stories from teachers across the world and how they're using it. Um, and it's great. It's a great way to like yeah, I get the idea of what you know social is or fun but seeing with you don't like oh, I get that.

Josh:

I I get what this person doing. I can try this or like. I love that idea. I'm going to try that in my class, like some of them some of the examples in there talk about, and perhaps our younger teachers would know, but the old stereo systems where you can adjust everything.

Jake:

Oh, I remember those yeah.

Josh:

Yeah, the equalizers. Right, you're adjusting it, and one of the teachers uses that as a reference of how you can tone this one up and tone this one down, and when I read that I was like that resonates with me, because a lot of times people will take these things like I got to throw everything into my class and it's like no, contextually speaking, in this moment, this environment, what does this environment need more of? And what I love about the book, too, is they really emphasize student voice, because we are one of we have 27 kids, we're one of 28 people in the class. We can't have all the answers, but getting that input from the kids is like this is what they're saying. They need to be more beneficial.

Jake:

Let's do that so it sounds like we really need to get their voice, but also get their feedback as well, and maybe give them choices and options. But get there, you know, is it fun? Why is it fun? Have them write down, maybe talk with a partner, tell us and really and really listen to them and see where they're coming from. They kind of get their viewpoint.

Josh:

Well, and this is the thing, like I've run workshops, that I've run coaching sessions and cohorts on setting the conditions to maximize internal motivation, we can't know what's important to kids. And when we do, then we understand how we can, you know, set some of the conditions here, so like if you like competitive volleyball and I hate competitive volleyball.

Josh:

I'll play if it's for fun. That gives me clues. Okay, I can have two options. If I can make that happen Cause I know what's going to appeal to you, right and so. But if we don't get that input, then we're just guessing, and usually what happens is we aim for the middle and you miss so many when you aim for the middle.

Jake:

All right, that's it. That's such a good point I'm going to. I'll put that link in the show notes. That's such a good point, I'm going to.

Josh:

I'll put that link in the show notes.

Jake:

Yeah, it's a great reason, awesome. So, josh, in our next question, in your work with stakeholders or other professionals, no-transcript.

Josh:

I love that question because it honestly really depends on the stakeholder not to be like. Well, it depends like the lawyer answer.

Josh:

I'll say the higher ups, meaning the highest level of government that I've been able to connect with. I've had some really I'm not sharing names, it's not my place to do that really intriguing conversations where I suspected I was like two to three levels from the premier of our province, which is like the head level of the province, okay, and I was speaking with like two or three levels of seniority down and the questions came what do teachers, what do p teachers need? Which blew my mind. I was like whoa, what you're actually willing to listen to that, but it was more of what do they need? What do we? We know, because we're not in the field, we don't know. So some of the questions I get from some people are they have no clue what's happening and I love it when they're open to that. But when I look at that and when they don't know what's happening is, I wonder where are their interpretations? What are their experiences when they perceive our field.

Josh:

what's fueling that perception and so it's really tricky to have those conversations because we're not. I mean, you can't just walk into a state building or provincial building.

Jake:

Like I want to talk to the head of office here. It just doesn't work that way.

Josh:

Right. When I when I speak with administrators, be it principals, vice principals or superintendents, those conversations usually center around localized stuff, which I totally understand but it, it's never I think in my 10 plus years of working with schools and teachers across north america, I could probably count on both my hands maybe not quite that much.

Josh:

How many conversations have have been around? Oh, my PE teachers, like from a complaint point of view, more often than it's not. It's like I want to support them but I don't really know how to and I don't want to, I don't want to offend them and I'm just like have a conversation with them. You know what's what's one thing like. If it's a pd day, what would they want to do? Versus everybody comes and listens to the greatest science of reading, which is don't get me wrong.

Josh:

Yeah, but if you're having this thing you really want to work on in pe and you have to go about science of reading. That might be one of many experiences that it's like. How many times do we have to go and not be seen or valued at At least that feeling of that Right. I always try to encourage people to have those conversations the best they can. Other than that, yeah, more often than not, if it's not about curriculum based, it's how do I support the PE teachers, which is a great question.

Jake:

I mean, I love that question, that they're, that they're even asking that you know.

Josh:

Yeah, I do too. I love that they do that. They're even asking that you know um. Yeah, I do too.

Jake:

Yeah, I love that they do and I just encourage them, go ask, yeah, yeah, go, go, go, hear from the horse's mouth, right, as they say. But um, no, that's so important we, we want to have our. Our profession is valuable, obviously, but we want to have, you know, the support from those stakeholders or the people helping finance, you know whatever it is. So, but, um, absolutely, that's great. So you know, you've been in the field a while. How has the field changed since, since you started? I'm sure there's many ways, but maybe, like the top two, yeah, how has it changed?

Josh:

you know, I share this with students every time a course starts and I was like, if you ever hear me say students these days, please catch me, because I remember being a student hearing that like oh, but I mean, yes, the world. I mean, not only has the world changed, uh, student cultures changed drastically. Of course I would say I'm not going to point the finger necessarily at cell phones or mobile phones, I'm going to look, I'm going to say the. I think the biggest challenge that I have seen since I began teaching in 2001, I had a couple of years off has been how much technology has centralized itself in our life and I'm not just talking students, I mean everybody, like adults as well and just how much things are taken for granted. Just how much things are taken for granted. And so, like I know, when I noticed cell phones becoming an issue, I used to be like villainizing kids for it. And then what do I do when I go in the office? Is I'm on my phone, right?

Jake:

I'm taking the subway home.

Josh:

I'm on my phone.

Jake:

It's like oh that is how I see that, yeah.

Josh:

You think of like when I began teaching, if I had a class of 30 kids, which wasn't uncommon I could probably predict two thirds of the class having enough not just fundamental movement skill but conceptual awareness and understanding to participate pretty effectively in any game.

Josh:

That number has dropped to maybe 20%, compared to like 66%, and there's so many reasons for that, like a life is becoming expensive for a number of years. But just what people are doing in their time has shifted, and I'm seeing a youth that has shifted so much that it's not even that they don't have the skills, they don't have the experience, they don't have the exposure. They don't have the experience, they don't have the exposure, and so that's drastically had to shift how I teach, because a lot of my early careers was traditional team games.

Josh:

then I started realizing most of these kids don't know that, or have they know of it but never played it and they don't like it. How can I use this activity as a trying to reach my goal if they just there's just a struggle? So for me I've had to be very responsive to the kids in front of me in ways, but also having that structure like here are the big targets, these are our curriculum, like our learning standards we're doing and what I started doing probably about 10 years ago is the first unit of the course is all what I call like minor play recreational games.

Jake:

Whatever you want to term it.

Josh:

It's just a way for me to get a new view of the kids.

Josh:

How do they?

Josh:

interact with each other. What are they? Are they seeming hesitant? Are they seeming overly competitive? Just getting a lay of the land of who's there and from that I also get some information from the kids. I'll do some surveys, just little quick bits like what do you like, what do you not like, what are activities, what experiences do you have? So I can take that information and try to tailor which activities I'm going to use based on that data.

Josh:

Interesting whereas before I used to have here's everything we're doing, like it or not. And then you just see, especially when times get tough, kids really just like I'm out right.

Jake:

Yeah, they kind of like they give up or whatnot, but I really like that you're setting up the environment and you're observing them, but not only that, you're also taking the data and using that data to benefit the students and your teaching. So that's really, really reflective. So I actually didn't have this question on the script, but we we were talking about technology, so I'm going to ask it what are your thoughts about AI in regards to physical education?

Josh:

You know it's new-ish, depending on one's exposure to it. When it first came out, I was intrigued in terms of like can it really do what everybody's doing or saying? It was going to do and I started using it just as a I want to play around, blew my mind at how quick things could get done.

Josh:

Quality then I've learned the quality of the prompts you use will determine the quality of the output you get, for the most part, right. I can definitely see and I use this a lot I started using this the last two or three years when I'm running sessions or work groups with teachers is I've started providing prompts for teachers who are like I don't have time to unpack a standard. I want to do it but I can't. Like give them some prompts and boom within literally within 10 seconds they've been faster.

Josh:

It can unpack and then you don't don't. I always say don't just take what they do and then plug it in like you got to use professional expertise, because sometimes the stuff that puts out is like, oh god, none of them close. Um, I actually had an argument with chat gpt probably about two weeks ago, like what's the problem here?

Josh:

I was like why am I writing that?

Josh:

But yeah, more often than not it's just showing how much time it can save us. I think where we can go wrong is when we plug a prompt in take it, plug it and go do it without using our professional discretion. Does this work? Does this not work? But it can really do a lot of those, the things that I call behind the scenes to teaching, the unpacking and then planning. How do I scope and sequence these things if you're using rubrics? Are they progressing in a logical manner? Are the criteria?

Josh:

listed in there are they actually assessing what it is it's saying, like AI can look for these things and give suggestions and I've used that with teachers.

Josh:

Like you, can pump out a rubric in seconds, and then does this really look like whereas back in the day you were spending what? Probably hours trying to develop a rubric. Right, you know.

Josh:

But yeah, and someone goes oh, level three looks like it should be four and four should be like oh, don't say that, because you you spent like half a day doing it and then you don't want to share because you're not sure if it's perfect and it's's like it's the.

Josh:

it's the opposite of what we want and and it's I always tell people too, with whatever you're using, it's not going to be perfect, but here's the thing, here's like your. If it's useful for you and the students, if the students know what it means and can use it to gauge their, their learning and what they're doing next and you can do the same, then that's that's an effective tool. If it's worded perfectly, but the students can't use it. You can't use it. That's garbage tool, right, right, Cause it the thing with that assessment.

Josh:

Whatever tool it may be using is a checklist or frequency scale.

Jake:

It's a rubric whatever it might be, if it's not usable, then it's not.

Josh:

It's not effective.

Jake:

Right, it's not realistic either. So, yeah, well, yeah, that's people. I have another thing I should have said earlier about.

Josh:

Assessment is not everything has to be rubricized. Rubric has a place and time, right. It's not a Swiss Army tool. It really depends on what you're looking for.

Jake:

Use the right. So what I'm hearing you saying is use the right tool for the right time.

Josh:

Absolutely.

Jake:

That makes sense. So what advice would you give our listeners? So what's?

Jake:

something that you might want them to take away with them.

Josh:

You know it's, if you've ever felt it's hard to say as I don't know what I'm talking to, but I'm putting it out there, because the more vulnerable you are, the more we'll connect with people if you have ever felt moments of wondering if teaching PE is in your future.

Josh:

And what got you into teaching PE was something you loved, it was exciting. You're getting to the point now you're like I don't think I can do it anymore. I caution you not I mean, you know your life best but I caution you not to make a life-changing decision without exploring ways to make what you wanted to do more possible, like I know. I know some people. They're exhausted, they're, they're burnt out and then they just leave pe, they go teach something else, or they leave the job altogether without really trying to make shifts and changes. And so that's. I guess what I'm saying is, if you're, feeling like I have.

Josh:

I felt this a couple of times in my career and one year I did take a one year leave of absence and moved out of district and different story. Thankfully I didn't quit. I came back to my position and I was fired up to you know I that little bit of time away really reinvigorated me, to like here's what I want to do, here's what I want to be, but here's what I don't want anymore. And that was one of the things that kickstarted my dive into assessment is I didn't want to feel like I was rolling out the balls anymore.

Josh:

I didn't want to feel like I was behavior managing anymore. I wanted to get in there with the kids and really have an intentional part in helping them learn and helping them find that success. And we all know that when you see kids experience that success and that little smirk or the big smile comes on their face or they're like I never thought I could do that Like those are some of the things that you can't take away.

Josh:

You can't forget Definitely, and if you're finding that you haven't had that experience in a while. I know it's hard to envision taking on more, but what is one like really taking some time and looking in, like what is one thing that could bring excitement back? It doesn't have to be the world of assessment. There are so many things and sometimes, like I said for me earlier, it was taking a bit of a time, like one year away and I came back to my role. Doesn't have to be that drastic, but just you know like we know teachers are burning out so quickly.

Jake:

Yeah, I mean for a variety of reasons too. Absolutely yeah, no, that's great advice, you know, just taking some time, but, like you said, getting more involved in, maybe the state association, maybe volunteering on a board, maybe you know, coaching, maybe being a mentor, you know, we all, you know. I don't know how it is in Canada, but do you have mentors for new teachers? No, okay, so yeah, that's.

Josh:

That's another thing I envy uh, of the system, and I shouldn't say it's everybody in america, but a lot of schools I work with in districts. They have instructional coaches and yeah love them, but a role to support teachers is like there's at least in my jurisdiction, we may have some at the district level. They're called curriculum coordinators and their portfolios are massive you don't necessarily get the how can I support you? It's more like what resource do you want?

Josh:

right um, but the idea of mentors is. I mean that is so powerful, especially not just for those coming in, but for those who have experienced to be able to, to share experience and connect with others.

Jake:

Right, yeah, that's so important. Yeah, josh, thank you for that answer, um, being, you know, honest and open about that. So a couple more questions. What are some hopes that you have, either professional or personal, in the future, for yourself or for the field? Or, you know, what are your, what are your? I know it's a big question. Yeah, what are?

Josh:

your? What are your? I know it's a big question. Yeah, let's go big or go home here. My hopes is my, my big romantic hope is that we see, I don't know the word to use it. We'll see a shift in our field, and not just, not just between our two countries, but in our field, and not just not just between our two countries, but in our field, globally, and and where I'm going to come back to an area of strength in my, in my career around the assessment and grading piece and if you dive into the research on it, I don't expect many people to do it.

Josh:

The the challenges we're having in north america are global and they have been for decades. My hope are global and they have been for decades. My hope is that in the next five to ten years we see more of a movement, a shift on what does quality assessment in a PE setting look like? And then there's PD for PE teachers, but it's not the one-offs and I kind of feel silly saying this, because it's a lot of the PD that I deliver, but that's just because of the system. Like the best ones, I deliver the ongoing systems. It's ongoing PD because the PD that I deliver, but that's just because of the system. Like the best ones, I deliver the ongoing systems. It's ongoing PD because we know what happens when you have an idea you love. You've tried for a couple of days. You are going to hit a bump. Where do you go when that bump is hit? What's the next step? Right, exactly.

Josh:

That's where you need that ongoing support to really implement something and look at sustainable change. Without that, it's the pd model that many of our districts use. We know, like research was clear on this, it's. It's a failed system. It doesn't lead to the changes that we aspire to. So my hope in the assessment world is that the research comes out to stop saying for decades we know that we need more intentional assessment and grading, but we're looking at like, wow, this process really helps shift practices and, more importantly, experiences for teachers and students.

Josh:

I don't know what that process is. That's a, that's a, but I say go big or go home. That's, that's a hope I have no, that's great.

Jake:

I get it... What you're saying is a shift in the mindset, shift in how pd's delivered, but also, as you mentioned these you call them one-offs like they, you know, they, they. You get an idea, you get a tool and you use it, and then maybe there's an issue with it. So then, what's the next step? How do you, how do you, consistently implement a new practice with fidelity and with, and how? How are you going to get that support too? And so, josh, I know you have um, a program, um, that you're offering. Do you still have a cohort..?

Josh:

Yeah, it's not right now we finished. Yet I have this year because it's kind of that's great segue into what we just said, or from what we just said it uh, after so many years of doing the, the standalones of one day pd sometimes it's two days and that's cool. I've had a few where you've come back a few in the year and it got me thinking, especially from a PE lens it's the system isn't set up that I've been able to see where I can come in and work with a lot of PE teachers on an ongoing basis.

Josh:

So I made the shift this last September that what is an answer for what teachers were looking for. Because last spring I spoke with PE teachers across North America about, like, what are your experiences, what are your challenges, what would work for you? And they were very loud and they want something ongoing. So I developed two different cohorts and it's an online program, a coaching program.

Josh:

One was on ways to set the conditions to promote internal motivation for students, but also in that one was on ways to set the conditions to promote internal motivation for students. But also in that one was what can teachers do to not burn themselves out trying to get that? And the other one was our own assessment and grading and those have been great experiences. It's been tremendous working with teachers and just the different experiences. What we know about PE teachers that most teachers don't have is after school and weekends are usually busy if not with family then with coaching right. So that's been a couple barriers for people. So I'm continuing to do those.

Josh:

but what it's great timing right now, perhaps a little self-promotion is I'm getting ready to launch a membership okay for teachers and and it's, it's not if you think of like a PD session, where sometimes it can feel like somebody's opened a fire hose and then boom, all this information coming. The idea behind the membership is like an irrigation system where there's like little bits at a time, implement, try, let's discuss, let's collaborate and then move on. It's like keep moving forward, but small bits, quick wins at a time, versus here's 17 things to try this year and we get overwhelmed, right?

Jake:

I love that approach, you know, because then you could refine whatever you're doing, get support with it, so, um, so yeah, send me some information about that. I'll put it the the links or whatever you send me in the show notes. Make sure folks have that wonderful yes, absolutely, thank you absolutely. Thank you for that. Yeah, of course, and so, josh, how can our listeners connect with you? What type of platforms are you on?

Josh:

Yeah, it's making this move to this online world. Like, I've had a website for a while, but I'm not a website developer and it's been pretty outdated, but it's up and running. So my website at jogelvcom. I'll send you this information as well. Um, that's where I have all the information related to the programs and the upcoming membership information. Um, like many people, I'm on blue sky, but I can't remember my username on it I'm on there too.

Josh:

Yeah, it's a weird news username I switched. Yeah, it's got all these things.

Josh:

I still got my Twitter account. I can't call it X, I don't know for how much longer I just I haven't been active on there. I find the more activity I get on there are people sending me DMS than like any sort of like. So, um, but yeah, those are, and then I'm on LinkedIn as well.

Jake:

Okay, so those three options All right. Yeah, we'll make sure to link all that in the show notes.

Josh:

Wonderful.

Jake:

Well, josh, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for coming on. You've expanded my mind. I think it's been great for our listeners, so I hope to have you on again at some point. But thanks again, I really appreciate your time. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here, of course. Thank you so much. So, listeners, if you have any questions, you could always email us at mahperdpodcast@ gmail. com. We'll have this episode uploaded soon. Until next time....., take care.

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