UDL Making The Right "Conditions" With Dr. Katie Novak

One “high-quality” lesson can still leave students out, and that’s the problem Dr. Katie Novak helps us solve. We sit down with one of the world’s leading voices on Universal Design for Learning (UDL) to talk about how inclusive education actually works when you design for real human variability. If you teach PE, health, or any subject where confidence and belonging matter, this conversation is packed with practical moves you can use right away. 

We dig into the idea we keep coming back to: firm goals with flexible means. Using unforgettable analogies like a dinner party where lasagna excludes half the guests and a 5K where everyone finishes differently, we unpack how UDL shifts the work from “fixing kids” to removing barriers in the environment. Along the way, we connect UDL to motivation, social emotional learning, accessibility, and why student choice can raise engagement without lowering standards. 

You’ll also hear how Dr. Novak designs professional development for teachers using UDL principles, including options for sitting or standing, devices or notebooks, and multiple ways to process learning beyond the default turn-and-talk. Then we bring it back to the gym and classroom: backward design, priority standards, mastery-based learning, adapted equipment and rules, supportive roles in games, and “exploding the verbs” so students can demonstrate understanding in more than one format. 

If this helped you rethink lesson design, share it with a colleague, subscribe, and leave a quick review so more educators find it. What is one barrier you want to remove first?

Resources:

Novak Education

IG: @Novak Education

The Education Table Podcast

Blog: (UDL in P.E.)

Thanks for listening! 🙏🏼 If you picked up a new idea or felt inspired by today’s episode. Please take a moment to follow the show and share it with another educator who’s passionate and let’s keep the conversation going!” I’d love to hear from you and if your interested in being a potential guest on the show; email mahperdpodcast@gmail.com 

Transcript

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Welcome And Reverse Interview

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Today I'm excited to welcome Dr. Katie Novak to the podcast. Dr. Novak is an internationally recognized leader in Universal Design for Learning, or UDL, and has spent more than two decades helping educators create classrooms where every learner can thrive. As a best-selling author, consultant, and former assistant superintendent, she's passionate about making learning more inclusive, engaging, and accessible for all students. Through her books, workshops, and work with schools around the world, Dr. Novak has inspired countless educators to rethink what's possible when we design learning with every student in mind. We're so glad she's here to share her insights, experiences, and practical ideas with us today. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Katie Novak.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Jake, so I am I'm so excited. I know that I reached out to you and suggest we do this kind of reverse podcast. So even though I am the guest, I have so many questions for you as well. And so this is gonna be fun because both of us are gonna be talking a little bit about universal design for learning. And so I would love for you just to share a little bit about how you reached out to me and how we connect in. And then we're gonna share with all your listeners this amazing, amazing work and how we can make just a life of wellness and fitness accessible to everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Well, thank you, Dr. Novak. So I really got started a few years back. My district was really big into universal design for learning, and we received a lot of training about it. We work with CAFST. I think you actually came down to Worcester Public Schools. I think you actually did a talk with us. And I believe it's such an important framework to learn and to utilize with students just to get them more involved in an inclusive environment. And I really love the principles of it. So you can't Google Universal Design for Learning without your name coming up. I know you've written more than 10 books. You have a your latest book, is it the shift the student led? Am I getting that right?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

But again, in the similar vein, we as adults are never gonna know exactly what kids need. We need them to be a part of it. And so it's it's not so much like what we are giving to kids, but what we are designing so that our learners can figure out for themselves what's best for them. And so that shift is amazing for teachers, especially given that right now we are working harder than we've ever worked and we don't have the best results, right? We're working too hard to not have better results. And so, how do we shift over to create these environments that allow kids to really reach like the highest levels of their potential?

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Definitely. When I first started college, we did these internships, and my one of my first internships was working with the Special Olympics. And as you know, Special Olympics are students with a variety of needs, and you really have to figure out as a coach or teacher how to make sure you're giving the best to them. I don't want anyone falling through the cracks. So I think it started back there for me back in college, just getting these great opportunities with mentors and experiences with a wide variety of students. So I have experience working K-12 for health and physical education. And the classroom is a little bit different than the gymnasium. So I see my students once a week for 40 minutes, but you might talk to some other teachers, they see their students every day, depending on what they teach. So their methodology or their pedagogy is going to change depending on who's in front of them, I believe. But I really love the UDL process. And something that sticks out with me is it's not something that's wrong with a student, but it's something that might need to be changed in the environment. So, how can we figure out how to change the environment if we move the barriers ahead

Jake’s Path Into UDL

SPEAKER_00 3:53

of time before we see our students? And I think it comes into play as a big factor for having the students be successful. And I can talk a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Let's unpack what that is. Like let's so your listeners, right? Let's imagine you've never heard of Universal Design for Learning here. Um, very, very simply, we're moving away from one size fits all because we acknowledge that one size fits all just doesn't work for everyone. And the thing that I want you to hear, listeners, let's call it millions of listeners, right? Let's manifest this. Is that the truth is that even if it is super high quality, it still might not work for everyone. So I think that sometimes educators are like, I'm spending so much time and it's such high quality. It may well be, right? So imagine I'm gonna use a dinner party analogy because it's so easy for anyone listening to kind of wrap their heads around. Is that like I make an incredible lasagna? It's excellent, right? And we're going beef, we're going sausage, we're going cheese, right? We're going homemade marinara, right? This is an amazing lasagna. And I want you to imagine that I invite everyone over. And my my goal is very simple. I want us all to have a lovely dinner together. And so I clean my house and I get everything ready and I welcome you into my house and I then serve everyone lasagna and red wine. Now that is a very delicious high-quality meal, but everyone listening knows that not everyone can eat it because all have friends who are sober, who are, you know, have a plant-based diet, who are lactose intolerant, who are gluten sensitive. And we know that ahead of time. And so if we're inviting a really diverse group of people over, we would ahead of time say, wait, like we know that there's going to be a lot of differences. So maybe we potluck it, or maybe we have a salad and put a pasta bar together or something like that. And the same is true with physical fitness, where if we suddenly say to a group of really diverse people, okay, so the only way that you can get an A and P E is to suddenly be really, really great at the hundred-meter hurdles. That's the only way that we're going to assess your physical fitness. We know ahead of time that there's so many different ways to live a life of physical fitness, to be a part of a team sport that goes beyond having to clear a hundred-meter hurdle. And I was a hundred-meter hurdler, which is why I bring that up, which is like an event that most people are like, nope, that one is not for me. You know, given back in field where there's lots of options.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

So, Dr. Novak, you bring up the dinner analogy. Can I expand on that with a 5K analogy? Oh, please, yeah. So you're thinking about a 5K, right? You're training for it. And some people might want to run it. Some people might be pushing in a stroller, some people, some kids might be running it, and some maybe some senior citizens are walking it. So the goal is to finish it, but everybody's doing the race in their own way. That's good for them. As long as the goal stays the same, but the means are flexible on how to get there. So, like you said about the hundred-meter hurdles, if we just put one goal in front

UDL With Dinner And 5K

SPEAKER_00 6:53

of them, that's only going to be attainable for maybe 25% of the students, if that. But if the students are able to choose how they show their learning, choose how they get there, that really expands their motivation levels and their chances of success. So if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

No, it totally makes sense. And like one of the things that we say all the time in Universal Design for Learning is just firm goals, flexible means. What really is the goal, right? Because, you know, if you're looking through both of us are Massachusetts educators, you know, the word hurdles is not in the health standards, right? You know, it's going to be it's a lot about just understanding fitness and understanding camaraderie and having proper form as you're working through kind of these different fitness movements and things like that. And if it is going to be, as you're saying, complete some sort of challenging obstacle, right? For me, that might be hurdles. And for someone else, it might be something very, very different. And I one of the misconceptions about universal design, and I think the pushback that I receive is that somehow we are all robots and we're going to have the same exact outcomes. Like we're obsessed with this idea of like exact same achievement. And so the analogy that I use all the time for this is like imagine that everyone listening decides that all of us want to get stronger, right? You know, we're aging as we get older and older, and our bone density, of course, is compromised. And so all of us want to build more bone density. We want to be healthy. And so all of us want to be a part of a gym, right? We all want to join a gym. And even if all of us have access to the best personal trainers and all of us have access to the best equipment, and we figure out what our bodies need, right? Everyone deserves access to that, but not all of us are going to be bench pressing 300 pounds, right? But that doesn't mean that because you think that I'm not gonna get there, that I shouldn't have the same access, the same opportunities, the same expectations for growth. And I think that sometimes in our systems, we make these assumptions that some people are capable of getting there and some people are not. And the truth is, is no one has any idea what anybody else is capable of. But we're making these assumptions. And the truth is, is that maybe not everybody is going to get there. Maybe not, I'm maybe I'm never gonna lift 300 pounds. In fact, I'll tell you, I'm probably not going to lift 300 pounds, but you don't know how strong I'm going to get. And so I should always have the same opportunities, the same feedback. And so when we're talking about how do we design an environment that works for everyone, it's not only about these commonbles and flexible means, but it's how do we ensure that everyone has the same access, the same opportunities, the same high expectations, and those same feelings of belonging and hope that, like, I belong here. This was designed with me in mind, and I can be successful here. And maybe my success is different from other people's success because who knows where we're gonna end up. But I think a lot of the times our traditional systems make these assumptions that some people belong and some people don't. And then we start separating everybody. And that is simply not what education is about. Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

I think that belonging piece is huge. I remember a few years ago during COVID times, I was teaching part-time at a title boxing gym, and this gentleman would come in with his elder brother who had Down syndrome. Now, he was just sitting there watching, and I'm thinking, why can't he be included? He's there, he's part of the family. So I talked to the manager in charge and I said, Let's get him on a program, get him involved. Maybe he has to have the picture, maybe he has to do something a little bit slower, maybe he has to have his brother coaching him with me or another trainer. But there's no reason why this person has to sit and watch on the sidelines. They can be included, they can be involved. So we did that, and it's hard to describe, but both brothers were crying because he was able to do something that he enjoyed, and his brother didn't have to sit on the sideline. He could be with him and be included. So I mean, I think that's huge. And as teachers, we all have our ways of building social emotional learning. Maybe it's a community norms, community agreements, cooperative games, but I just think it's huge. I know in my class I try to focus on what we can do to get the students talking with each other, uh, even for short periods of time, what can we do to check in with them? Because it doesn't matter what the content is, if they're not there emotionally or they don't feel safe, then the other stuff kind of goes out the window for the time being. Not to say it's not important, but the social emotional piece is huge. So something I like to do too. And Tim, if you've done something like this, is any new student we have, I give them a little kind of reflection for them. What's been your experience in the past? What do you enjoy? What are your goals? What do you want to get better at? It's just a good way to chat with the student and get to know them a little bit better before diving into the content. And I'm sure different our listeners listening will have different ways that they utilize SEL learning. But what's something, Dr. Nowak, you've done in the past when you're in the classroom or when you give professional development? How do you make the space safe for everyone for the teachers? Because teaching students is a little bit different than teaching adults, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:02

We as teachers, I think, are probably, and I believe this is a compliment, the harshest students, because we know a lot about pedagogy, right? So it's not like you're just the students, again, like they're coming to you without this life experience and without this expertise of what great teaching looks like. So you have a little bit of a harsher audience, which I love about teachers. I am a teacher's teacher, but I usually start off with a little game of would you rather? And so I

Belonging Stories From The Gym

SPEAKER_01 12:33

start off and I say, okay, everybody, like one of the things that I notice whenever I start presenting with adults and I present with teachers all over the world, is that we have been brainwashed into believing that if we are in professional learning, it means that we are sitting down. I don't know who made that up, right? But like we believe that. And so as soon as I come in, I say, okay, everyone, one of the things that I'm noticing, and I would say 99.99999% of the time, everybody is sitting down, everybody is facing me, right? We just sit where we're supposed to. We're like, okay, this is where I sit. And I said, I want you to think about for a moment how your body actually learns best. Because I'm noticing that every single one of you is actually sitting down in a chair, like you feel like you're supposed to be doing. And that's great if that's good for your body. But some of you might be much more comfortable with your back against the wall or standing up or moving. Or I noticed a lot of you are swiveling towards me because when you get a lot of people in a room, especially in like a cafeteria or round tables, there's a lot of people who are swiveling in their chair, which is terrible for your back, or they're not even backs to the chairs. I presented a lot of cafeterias where people are kind of hunched over. And I said, I want you to think about making yourself comfortable. What does that look like? And so again, just take a moment and think about what is actually best for you, and then make this room work better for you. And I'm gonna put in a timer and get yourself ready. And if that means going back to your classroom and getting a swivel chair, if that means sitting on the floor, right? And I'm gonna show you a before and after. And it is remarkable just doing that, how adults will say, wait, what? So that's one thing I do right from the beginning. And then I talk about how devices can be an incredible, incredible tool and can also be an incredible distraction. I don't have the self-control to be on a device during the training and not be distracted, right? I love checking my email. I'll try to start taking notes and then I'll get distracted and do something else. I know my brain well enough to know that. Other people are more focused when they're on their devices. And so I'm like, I'm not judging anybody on their devices. I said, but honestly, think about the fact that I'm never ever gonna spend more than about 10 minutes providing instruction before I give you time to process. And when I'm giving you time to process, I'll give you some examples of what that looks like. But ultimately, you know, cognitive load theory, working memory, I'm not gonna present more than 10 minutes at a time. So during that 10 minutes, actually think about does it make sense for you to have your device open or not? No judgment. And I don't judge even if I think that your kids are way more important than me. So if you have to check your phone for your kids, please do that, right? But really think about do you want your device out or would you rather have a notebook, right? We do that. And then every 10 minutes when I pause, I always say, no, this pause is not a break, it is active processing time. And traditionally, teachers will do a turn and talk. But turn and talk requires very quick processing time and pretty strong verbal skills. And if my intention is not actually talking, then I can give you opportunities to either reflect by making your thinking visible, by writing something, by drawing something, by just taking a little bit more time to process, maybe join me for a QA, or you can actually turn and talk. And so I asked people, if I was gonna ask you right now, would you rather take notes, use your device, or would you rather have a conversation, right? Which of those actually makes sense to you? And I would say usually about a third of people were like, I would rather actually take notes, I would rather take time for myself. And I would have like, extroverts, leave them alone, right? So we often, as even adults, kind of default into this one size fits all, right? And so just by starting off with those three questions, like, would you rather use a device? Would you rather sit or stand? Would you rather have a conversation or use notes? I'm like, listen, I want you to get what you need out of this. So you don't need my permission to do anything if it serves you as a learner. And so never feel like, is it weird if I get up? Never feel like, is it disrespectful if I need to step out? It's not, right? You do you, baby. And then there, it creates a very, very different environment, I think, for adult learners. When I pause, I'll never say, now it's time to read an article. I'll say, now it's time to learn more about UDL. And that might mean that you could read an article. I have some hard copies if you want to grab one. You could also choose to read a digital article. If you want to go for a walk, here's a 10-minute podcast I recorded. You can go for a walk. If you want to learn from each other, you can have a conversation. I always see how far the closest coffee shop is. So I'll say, if you want to listen to a podcast, there's a Starbees about six minutes away. I'll give you 15 minutes. You can order something, get there, get back. And just trying to model, there's lots of different ways to learn. There's lots of different ways to process learning. There's lots of different ways to be in this room together. And at the end of the day, it's like, did we accomplish these goals? You learned more about BDL. You thought about how you're going to apply this in your own environment. And we didn't need to do this the same way. But the big shift here is that I actually didn't make a decision for any of you. I was just flexible and have these options available. And then you got to make the decisions. So in some ways, it's easier for me to design that way.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

The language that you used, you know, you were very intentional and you didn't say we're going to read an article. They have options to listen to it, they have options to go on a walk, they have options to talk with somebody. That's really huge for teachers. Just giving our learners options and also being intentional in how we model and use our language. Because if we say we have to do it this way, automatically 30, 40% of the people who don't want to do it that way are saying I'm not doing it this way.

UDL For Adult Professional Learning

SPEAKER_00 18:23

So that's huge.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Well, so funny, teachers will go like we're allowed to leave. I was like, You are a highly trained professional. Yes, you are allowed. Walk around the track, go get a coffee. Of course you're allowed to leave. But again, I think that we were educated in this one size fits all. And again, it works for a lot of people. So like I don't want people to hear me and go, well, we shouldn't do it that way, right? Because it does work for many people, but it doesn't work for everyone. And universal is everyone. And so if we want it to work for everyone, we have to be a little bit more flexible. And so that's why you reached out to me as you're like, I notice on your site you don't have anything about physical education. And here's some of the things that I'm doing. And I was like, yes, like you nailed it. Let's get that up on the site for other PE teachers. Because I think that a lot of the times it feels like, oh, that might work in fill in the blank. That might work in elementary or that might work in mathematics or that might work in ELA. And the truth is, is it can work anywhere. Because it's asking yourself, is it possible to do this another way? And if it is, why don't we extend that flexibility to learners? And some people will say, yeah, but like sometimes you can't be flexible. I don't think there is a case where you can't be flexible because people will say, you know, Katie, sometimes you just have to pay your taxes. I'm like a great example of something that's actually insanely flexible, right? In terms of do you want to file in hard copy? Do you want to file online? Do you want to use turbo tax? Do you want to file yourself? Do you want to get an accountant? Do you want to pay now? Do you want to pay estimated ahead of time? Do you want to pay quarterly? Can't pay? Want to file an extension? There's lots of flexibility, but the actual goal of file your taxes, that's the thing that's not negotiable. So we have to just figure out what is actually not negotiable. Finish the 5K, and then we can reimagine any possible way to get there.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Definitely. I just took a lesson and I de universally designed it with the outcomes, the objectives, the ICANN statements, and it was great. I think something I want our listeners to really take away is being a great framework. You don't have to do everything at once. I think you can start small with the three principles. Maybe you should start with one principle or one consideration, right? When I first started, I had a checklist and I just went off the checklist just to start. And then once I got more comfortable with the process and the framework, I ended up kind of reverse engineering, backwards designs. What did I really want? What were my priority standards? Be seeing my students only once a week. I can't teach everything and anything. I have to really prioritize what I want them to know and be able to do by the month, by the year. So I'm also a big proponent of long-term planning. I plan a year in advance. And also I utilize the modern classrooms project, which is a whole nother element in itself. But I think UDL in the modern classrooms and teaching backwards all go hand in hand because you're really looking at what the goals are for the students. How are you going to assess them? How are they going to show their learning? And with this UDL framework, it really comes in helpful.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

So yeah, so the three principles for everyone listening, the three principles of UDL, which go back decades, are if learners are to learn, right? If any brain is to be activated, we have to activate three networks of the brain, which means that learners, we have to activate engagement, representation, and action and expression. And the best way to explain that is learners have to be engaged, meaning they have to be motivated. How do we get them to learn? How do we get them to share their learning? And those are a Essentially, when we're talking about engagement, we're talking about motivation. When we're talking about representation, we're talking about how do we design a learning so kids understand it. And when we're talking about action and expression, we're talking about assessment. How do we get them to show us what they have learned? So let's talk about a health curriculum for a moment. If we want all learners to, let's say, understand more about viruses, right? We know we can get them more interested and more motivated by giving them a choice of which virus do you want to study? And do you want to work alone or do you want to work with a partner? Right. So right away, we can get them more motivated just by giving them a couple of choices of, you know, do you want to study COVID? Do you want to study HPV? We're giving them choices. And what we know is when you give learners choices, you can increase their engagement, you increase their excitement. When they have options to work together in groups, right? So we're going to try to get them more motivated by giving them options to choose what they're going to learn about. And then when they're learning, we could say, well, you can choose to find videos online, or you can choose to go to the library and get a book, or you can choose to find an expert that you could interview. Go interview your science teacher, right? So we're giving them a number of different options for how they're going to learn it. So they're more likely to build understanding. And then for the action and expression, we might say, now you're going to share what you've learned. Where does the virus come from? How does it survive? How does it grow? And you can do that in a poster or by making a song or by making a brochure or by writing a paper. So we're providing options for them to be motivated, options for them to learn, and options for them to share their learning. And again, as Jake said, you don't have to do it all at once, right? It's just like where can you start being flexible? Where can you start providing those options? Because a single option will include more people than not. So let's go back to my dinner party analogy. If I say there's only wine and lasagna, there's going to be many people who are not included. Simply by saying, Do you want wine or a glass of water? There are so many more people who are included by that single option. Because if you are sober, you now have something available. And if you are, let's say, really struggling with reading comprehension, as soon as I say you can either read a book or watch a video, I have now created this entry point for students who might struggle with more traditional decoding. And so it's about firm goals, flexible needs. And the more flexible we are while honoring the goal, the more students are going to be included.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Definitely. I look at it like the game of Pac-Man. You have the goal in the middle, but there's different ways to get there. So you have all these different bases and whatnot. And I think something you said that was really important was they have to have those entry points. I mean, everyone's definitely not starting in the same spot. My district has over 30 languages spoken. I'm sure a lot of districts have other ways that students are diverse. So something also too is to anticipate variability. So if the students, maybe they have attention needs, so then you have visual schedules. Maybe there's a lack of confidence. You can scaffold the task. Maybe they're ELL learners, so you have to have picture vocabulary cards or a model for the students. So, or sensory needs. My son is neurodivergent, so he has a lot of challenges with crowds and loud spaces. So then we need to have predictable routines. So how can the teacher set those routines up to make sure that not only batch students are successful, but everyone's successful? So I think that's a big part of it too.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

And that is one of the things that I love is what is necessary for some becomes available for everyone. If you're going to provide the option for somebody, then provide the option for everybody. I do eat a diet that includes meat, but I often prefer a vegetarian meal. And so if there's an option at a buffet to put together a fully vegetarian plate, I often will, even though I do eat meat, right? So it's not to say like I don't have to show a plant-based card to have a plant-based option. It's just like when we recognize the whole scope of human variability, you provide all these options. And the truth is there's not only interpersonal variability that we're different from each other, but intrapersonal variabilities that were always changing. And so, you know, attritional PE class, I was a gym class hero. Like I was the kid who needed like the full shower after PE because I would go like, oh, 110%. I tried to go all title nine on my athletic director when I was in high school because I was mad because I didn't want to play field hockey. I wanted to play soccer. And I went in, like, I went to Seekon Kai in Massachusetts, and I went in and was like, I'm playing soccer. And he's like, okay. And then I had this whole argument. And he was like, I said, okay, why are you arguing with me? But I went all in, right? And so the there were always options for warming up, right? So it was like, okay, so today we're gonna play basketball. If you want to play competitive basketball, you're gonna go to that court. If you want to do it a little bit lighter, you're gonna go to this court, and then like warming up, you know, do you want to do some plyo? Do you wanna do this? And even though I wanted to go gym class hero, I was also like a three sport athlete. And if I was gonna be like competing in a track meet in the afternoon, I would have to back off in PE. And so I think a lot of the times we're thinking about those are the kids who need this and those are the kids who need that. But the truth is, is that's always changing because it's like you can't say, well, she's gonna be in a competitive group, because there were certain days where it's like, you know, I sprained my ankle or I wasn't feeling well, or I'm like, we have state finals this afternoon, and I absolutely can't give it all to a PE basketball game. So I'm gonna take it easy and I'm gonna play over here. And so this concept of just saying to learners, this is the goal, these are your options, which of these is best for you today and why. And you as the teacher always can redirect and be responsive if you don't think kids are making irresponsible decisions. But I very rarely had to say, you know what, I think right now you're making a decision that isn't good for you. And so I'm gonna ask you to choose something else. That didn't happen very often.

unknown 28:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

And if you bring up a good point, because just because somebody behaves or acts in a certain way one day doesn't mean the following day or the following weeks, the conditions are gonna change, right? Maybe something happened with the family, or like you said, maybe there was a big tournament coming up. So they have to adjust the level

Backward Design And The Three Principles

SPEAKER_00 28:53

of intensity, right? So I think that's huge. And especially in PE, I mean, it's a very public endeavor. Like people aren't sitting behind a desk. What the student does is in front of everyone else. And I give the example of my wife who was had uh in a cooperative games unit, she had to swing across the rope, and if she didn't make it or the class classmates didn't make it, they'd have to start all over. Now, how embarrassing is that for somebody whose baby doesn't have the upper body strain? So take those things into consideration as a teacher and as a P teacher that whatever is being done, uh students have to feel safe and they have to have options. And it's not enough to just say it has to be done one way. We really have to utilize you UDL uh in the best way possible, not just say it has to be done one way. Give them options to engage, like you mentioned earlier. They can do something with a partner, they can do something with a small group. And believe it or not, some students like to work by themselves, which is fine, but other times it's good for them to talk and communicate with their classmates. Uh something that's come up in conversation with quite a few colleagues is this idea of picking groups. I believe it's important to choose groups randomly, but the teacher also has to know what student would be good for what group of students. So allowing them the choice to either work with a partner, maybe a student's um very shy and they need to have like a coach. So I utilize the support education model where students who don't necessarily want to go all out, they can be a referee or they can be an encourager. But with those roles, they also have tips and they also have guidelines to go with it. So I don't just say to a student, oh, go referee the game. They have to know the how the game works, they have to know the rules, they have to understand conceptually what the end goal is. The teacher has the knowledge, but the students have knowledge too. Now, in any one given class, you could have students that have kind of elite levels and students who have never touched the ball. As I mentioned earlier, I alluded to the modern classrooms. We have these pacing trackers, and the students have these three categories of must-do, should do, and aspire to do. I look at it as levels, something that all the students have to do in order to progress to the next skill or concept. But then you have the should-dos, something a little bit more challenging, and then the aspire to do's, which is something that's really challenging. But the students get to choose their own level, and that's where UDL comes in and having them have a choice of where they are. Now, along these levels, there's a formative assessment. We all know what that is, right? But mastery check. So either they passed the mastery check or they didn't, but there's no failing, they're always learning, right? And I think that's an important part about any class that's inclusive, is they have to be learning. It's not what are we doing today? It's why are we doing it? How are we gonna know that we learned it? And I some students they used to say, you know, what are we playing? I say, What are we learning? I have the whole calendar up on my bulletin board so they know ahead of time. So they don't even have to ask me. They know September we're doing this, and October we're doing this. And it might change. I'll let them know ahead of time. So when students know what's gonna happen, they're a lot more comfortable with the environment instead of surprising them. They need to know the purpose of it, the rationale. That also helps with engagement. They have to know how they know they learned it. Like I said earlier, they can take a quiz, they can they take a quick video, they can do a wokaroo notes, they can describe their learning. So there's many ways to show what they know. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Yes. I mean, and that really is the essence of it. And it always comes down to firm goals before flexible means. Right. Firm goals. And so if we take the verb demonstrate, do you want to demonstrate on video? Do you want to demonstrate it live? Right? We take the word explain. Do you want to explain by telling me? Do you want to explain in a poster? Do you want to explain by recording your voice? Right. It's like we can explode these verbs and just say, ultimately, this is what mastery is. And I have to strip away the way that I used to measure mastery, which was like in a very one-size-felt way, because that's the way that we learned to do it, right? Uh, I was an English teacher. So I would look at my students will explain how complex characters interact in a test. And I would say, you have to write a five-paragraph essay, because that was just the way we always did it. And you know, it's the same thing in physical education where it's like you have to demonstrate how to accurately throw a ball. And it was like, now we're all gonna do the baseball unit. There are so many different ways that you can throw things. That's it's not that there can't be shared experiences around a sport, but like even we were at the beach this weekend and we were playing volleyball and we were doing like a pepper, right? What we realized is that we needed to play with two different volleyballs, one with a real volleyball and one with this super, super light ball with people who didn't really have the skill set to play volleyball because we couldn't get past like one or two when the group got really big with the real volleyball because we can't carry with a really heavy volleyball, it doesn't go anywhere. And like even just that on the beach really quickly, we learned this game is gonna be a disaster and no one's gonna have fun if we don't adapt on the fly and say, do you want to try to play here with real bump set spike and a real ball? Or do you want to go water and play with this really light ball and we can still all play this game and have an awesome time? And like that's really what it comes down to is just reimagining is there another way to do this that we can also be involved, we can also feel like we belong, we can also have the same experience, and ultimately it leads to much more enjoyment, much you know, greater outcomes, and much more of a likelihood that people will take these skills into their future, because certainly we have a very sedentary adult population here in this country. And health-wise, we need these kids to buy into a life of wellness and fitness and health to live the best lives that they can in the future.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Absolutely. And I think going along with what you said, not only changing the equipment, but maybe changing the rules. Yeah, well, well, ensure that the students

Options In PE Groups And Assessment

SPEAKER_00 34:53

are successful. What person wants to do something where they're gonna fail over and over again because their options are limited, right? When you have a lighter ball, maybe you hit the ball twice, maybe you change the rule or make the space smaller or bigger, depending on what's needed. So, I mean, that's huge. So that thank you for saying that. You could also change the amount of players in the game, where they stand, their positioning. So once once the teacher, and I'm talking P right now, once the teacher has an understanding of what they can do with one unit or one lesson, they could really expand on that, use it as a starting point and expand on that to other lessons. Because those entry points, and how can we change? What did you say? Explode the verbs?

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

How can you be how can we explode the verbs to really make students more successful? I mean, that's huge. So, Dr. Nobak, you've written over 10 books. I have a question for you. What inspires you to keep writing and keep teaching and keep motivating and being a model to others? I know it's a big question.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Number one, I love writing. I love writing. I became an English teacher because I love writing. I literally saw myself as being like some speech rig novelist when I was in high school. I write almost every day. Now it's you know, blogs and articles and things like that, but I really do love to write. And goodness gracious, do I love to teach? That is not disingenuous. For me, I love being with teachers. I love talking about this work because I loved teaching. Teaching seventh grade was the greatest job I've ever had. And, you know, yes, I love working with teachers, but there is something magical about 13-year-olds. And I think that as a teacher, I worked in a district where I got so much support in terms of instructional coaching and I worked with a co-teacher, and I had two periods a day, one team planning time, one prep period. We had awesome professional development. Like I was so supportive as an educator, and I was able to experience so much success in terms of student growth, and I had this amazing culture of just professional efficacy, and I am so grateful for that. And I went into administration and was able to work with a team to create hopefully similar conditions for the teachers I worked with. And as I work around the world more, I realized that there are so many teachers for whom we simply don't have the conditions yet that they need to be successful. And so a part of me is just driven to if we say that all kids can be successful when we get the conditions right, we have to extend that to teachers. All teachers can be successful when we get the conditions right. And that means that teachers need excellent professional development, really high quality instructional materials and resources, time to work together, time to observe each other, really good sources of data. Now, I'm not talking about standardized data. I'm just saying we deserve really good artifacts to say, is what we're doing working? Because if so, let's keep doing it. And we also need really good sources of data to say, if it's not working, let's come together and do something different for the love of all that's good, right? Why continue to do something that isn't effective? And so a part of me is just really driven to be a part of creating conditions that allow educators to be more successful. And so when we were talking about work recently, and someone's like, well, no one really likes work. And I was like, I like work, and my my 17-year-old son is like, oh, yeah, we know. Yeah, you like work. And it's kind of like a joke that I like work, but it's true that I love teaching and I love working with teachers. And I feel like when you meet teachers, you're with your people. And these are people who have chosen, despite the headaches and the heartaches, to work with kids who are pains in the neck in all of the best ways, right? And we know that public sentiment around education is probably the lowest it's ever been, and yet we still show up for kids. And that is a pretty magical group of people. And we're honory sometimes,

Why Novak Writes And Keeps Teaching

SPEAKER_01 39:03

and we're like, we're tough critics. And I believe we've earned that because we're working with these kids all day. But being a part of helping this group of people realize that there are more efficient ways to do this, that the job should be awesome. I haven't been in the classroom in a long time, and I know a lot has changed, but I want people to realize that the work is awesome. Not all the time, but there are better ways, easier ways to do it, and that kids can and will be successful, and teachers can and will be successful. So a part of it is just I really like the work. I am definitely a workaholic in all the worst and best ways. And I think I'll continue to stick with this. People say, when you're gonna retire, I'm like, I won't. I think I'll just admit about work until I'm unable to do it. But I don't see myself not working with teachers at any point in my life just because it's the only thing I've ever done.

unknown 39:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

It's what you're used to. I could tell you're definitely very passionate about it. So you also work with the team, right? You have uh uh Novak Education. You had these courses in PD offered right on your website. I've taken a few myself and they've been really beneficial. So I've enjoyed that. So are there any new courses coming up for your website or are they?

SPEAKER_01 40:10

We just released one a couple of weeks ago on multi-tier systems of support. It's uh really slanted towards people who want to be a part of really being a part of the distributed leadership team, not necessarily leaders, but people who want to be a part of a team that really helps to shift a system to better support educators. And I am working on one this summer to align to my newest book, UDL Shift. But we're always popping up new things there. And again, I work with an incredible team. There's about 15 of us. All of us have put in time in the classroom, which I think is really important, is you have to have taught to work with teachers. And definitely again, we're always putting out blogs and podcasts. All my podcasts are 10 minutes or less. Uh, just answering questions because teachers are busy and it's just like boom, boom, boom, you got a question, send me an email. I'll answer it in 10 minutes or less.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

That's great. Yeah, I've heard your podcast too. They're really good. What do you you're up to what, 40 episodes now? So it's uh something like that. No, that's great. Yeah, as you know, I I have a podcast too where I'm interviewing teachers and experts in the field just to hear about their advice. I think it's important that, you know, I learn best by listening, listening on my way to work. It gives me it gives me a flexible option. I could do it while working out, working on the treadmill, so it's very flexible. Podcasting is great because you really get to meet folks from around different places and hear what they have to say about education and their viewpoints, their perspectives. I think having multiple perspectives and listening to other people who are actually doing the

Courses Resources And Closing

SPEAKER_00 41:38

work is important. And it's definitely expanded my mind, expanded my brain about what else is out there. I'm grateful we reached back out and we were able to put this blog together and this lesson. Somebody posted it on Instagram a couple days ago, so it's gotten some traction, so that's great. So your your Instagram is Novak Education, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Yep. Feel free to connect with us anytime. And we love all things. Firm goals, flexible means.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Well, it was a pleasure talking with you, Dr. Novak. I really appreciate you time and sharing your insight and expertise. And until next time, have a great rest of your day. Enjoy your summer.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

All right, you too. Good to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

Bye bye.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Bye.