Episode 3: The Myth of Monogamy: Exploring ENM

In this episode of Love Liaisons, Kathryn and Marina explore ethical non-monogamy (ENM), polyamory, and the idea that monogamy may not be the only—or even the most natural—relationship model. They share personal stories, cultural perspectives, and statistics about ENM, discussing why more people are questioning traditional monogamy.

Key Highlights:

•Defining ENM: The differences between polyamory, swinging, and open relationships.

•Sharing experiences in polyamory and why some people believe monogamy is a societal construct.

•Attachment & Polyamory: Insights from Polysecure by Jessica Fern, exploring how attachment styles influence non-monogamous relationships.

•Contrasting Viewpoints: why monogamy has worked for many of our married friends.

•Debunking Myths: Addressing common misconceptions like “ENM is just an excuse to sleep around.”

•Final Takeaways: Encouraging listeners to explore relationships that align with their values—monogamous or not.

Resources & Recommended Reading:

•Books:

•Polysecure by Jessica Fern – Examines how attachment theory applies to ENM.

•The Ethical Slut by Dossie Easton & Janet Hardy – A foundational guide to navigating non-monogamy ethically.

•Online Resources:

•More Than Two – Guide to polyamory.

•National Coalition for Sexual Freedom – Advocacy for alternative relationship structures.

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Transcript

Kathryn 0:12

Welcome to Love Liaisons, the ultimate deep dive into the highs and lows and hilarities of modern relationships. I'm Kathryn,

Marina 0:22

And I'm Marina, and we'll be your love liaisons. So pour yourself a nice glass of wine.

Kathryn 0:30

or a hot cup of tea, and let's dive in. So, Marina, we got a lot of feedback on our last episode. Are we dating the same guy?

Marina 0:41

Yes, we did. So we definitely need to get, our tea and wine ready for today. Cause we've got a lot to talk about. So, what are you drinking?

Kathryn 0:53

Well after what we're going to be talking about today, I have my well rested tea because I think I'm going to need to get some good rest. What are you drinking, Marina?

Marina 1:04

I think the wine that pairs best with today's episode is Ménage à Trois, red wine.

Kathryn 1:11

Mm hmm.

Marina 1:12

of three different grapes. So we'll see how that fits well with our episode today.

Kathryn 1:19

It fits very well. Pairs well.

Marina 1:22

Yeah. So you mentioned we got some feedback from our last episode which was about, are we dating the same guy, Facebook page. And one of the things that I noticed after going back on the Facebook page is that it's being trolled a lot. There's a lot of joke posts and one of the funniest ones I even saw was a post featuring a picture, a younger. picture of the hip hop singer, Drake, with a posted message of somebody pretending to be the mom of a 16 year old girl asking, should I let this guy date my daughter who is clearly a minor? So if y'all know about, yeah, the battle that's been going on between Drake and Kendrick, somebody decided to troll. Are we dating the same guy? So what, what have you heard?

Kathryn 2:15

Well, I got some feedback, and of course, you know, everybody's names, they're going to remain anonymous, out of respect for them, but just saying that they, saw the pros and cons and that, why is this person putting this person on there, you know, or, I had one lady say to me that she had posted something about a young man and that I guess the wife or something like that said, something. to her partner. There's so many. I had another one who said that she doesn't understand. She thought the group was supposed to be supporting women. And another woman went and told the person that the person had mentioned saying, Hey, don't date this guy. So she was really concerned about the validity and are people getting into this group? Are they not being vetted properly at that could potentially harm other women when it's supposed to be supporting them?

Marina 3:10

Yeah, so everybody I know has had a reaction this episode and to, the, are we dating the same guy? In fact, I wanted to share a little bit of a story of a acquaintance of mine who I'll just call Jay, who's honestly the ultimate, are we dating the same guy? And this segways well into our next topic. But. This fella married and had an open relationship, had multiple girlfriends, lovers, and everybody seemed to know except his wife.

Kathryn 3:45

Hmm. What?

Marina 4:07

of them actually told his wife and then all the others found out. And ultimately he got kicked out of his house and ended up divorced. And so. I had, I'd given him this advice. I said, you know, why were you just not honest? Why did you just not tell your wife you wanted an open relationship or that you wanted to be non monogamous? And You know what he said to me? This, this was amazing. He said, you know what? I, I couldn't tell her she'd be, she'd be mad. That's not, she'd be really mad at me. That's not what she wanted. Well,

Kathryn 4:42

Well, it's better in a line now, isn't it?

Marina 4:45

Yeah. Well, you won't believe how mad she was when she found out, I mean, it was a total scene, like out of a movie, she threw out all of his stuff. It was like a yard sale on the front lawn. And. Ultimately it's better to tell the truth and ask for what you want in the beginning because you give the person a chance to take it or leave it.

Kathryn 5:07

A lot of people are fearful of what will happen, but it really then is just selfish, but this kind of reminds me, and you know I gotta do this, because I gotta sing a song, but it kind of reminds me of that song by Lou Bega, a little bit of Monica in my life, a little bit of Erica by my side, a little bit of Rita is what I need. You know that song?

Marina 5:27

Oh yeah. And that describes this guy Jay to a tee. He had a little bit of everybody in his life and then ended up with nothing when they all found out. But You know, today we're going to talk about the myth of monogamy. Is monogamy a myth? Are people still monogamous? And the potential antidote to this, are we dating the same guy or cheating, which is ethical non monogamy. And

Kathryn 5:58

Mm hmm.

Marina 5:58

the part that was missing from this story with my acquaintance was the ethical part. And that's really what our episode is going to be about today.

Kathryn 6:09

Yes, so Marina share with me because I'm not overly familiar, although I have some experiences, which I'll share. It's pretty funny, some stories, but I'm not overly familiar. So tell me, tell everybody that's listening what the types of ethical non monogamy there are and how this works.

Marina 6:27

Yeah, certainly, So ethical non monogamy or abbreviated E N M is somewhat of an umbrella term for being honest about not having monogamous relationships. And it's a relationship style. And there's, a spectrum of ENM. There's different forms. Many of you may have heard of polyamory, and this is where people actually have multiple loving relationships with consent. And they may be instead of in a couple, in a thruple. Like three people or maybe four people, but they're actually in a relationship with each other. So it could be three partners. This could be a man with two girlfriends or a woman with two boyfriends. So, and I mean, it's not polygamy, they're not actually married, but it's on that same spectrum where they actually have a serious relationship among more than two people.

Kathryn 7:27

Mhm.

Marina 7:28

next there's swinging, you know, many people have heard of swingers. And there's also a spectrum of, all of these subsets. So swinging is pretty much like a recreational non monogamous sex. And oftentimes they could be people that are in committed relationships, but have this. where they swing, they have sex with other people, they may partner swap, and this could be done

Kathryn 7:54

Okay.

Marina 7:55

on like a weekly basis, once a month, or maybe just once in a while, you know, there's, there's really a lot to this. And

Kathryn 8:04

Yeah. Did you, did you know that San Diego, the city of San Diego, it was on the news, is one of the top cities for swingers, for swinging? Mm hmm.

Marina 8:24

kind of grew up in San Diego actually told me this and it's especially really popular about with the North County types. So even though that's really not. My thing, but I didn't know that it's really popular here. So when I started, noticing E N M as a relationship style, that sort of made sense. And, another form of E N M is having open relationships. So this is

Kathryn 8:52

Silence.

Marina 9:07

I heard the term E N M was actually a couple of years ago. I was here in San Diego. I was dating a guy in San Diego. We, met online and we had a really good connection. we went out a couple of times. We had great conversation, great chemistry, everything was wonderful. And then he started to go distant. He didn't ghost me, but he just wasn't asking me out so much anymore. So I wrote him and I said, Hey, I'm surprised not to hear from you. I thought we had a really great connection. And he wrote me back and said, yeah, you're right. I just think we have different relationship styles. And. I didn't get it. I thought, what do you mean by that? Like, I literally was clueless. he wrote me, he texted this to me. He said, I am ENM and I don't think that you are. And I had never even heard this acronym. So luckily he texted it to me. So of course, what did I do? I asked uncle Google, you know,

Kathryn 10:06

Why didn't he tell you in the beginning?

Marina 10:09

that's a great question. Cause I had to Google just what is E N M? And I was like, Oh, that stands for ethical non monogamy. I see now.

Kathryn 10:18

If he's E and M, he should have remembered the E, the ethical, and told you in the beginning instead of getting what he wants, and now he's like, Oh, by the way, I'm in an ethical non, you know, non monogamous, and I don't think you are. So that's very interesting. He forgot the E.

Marina 10:34

Yeah. He, he forgot the E and happened to tell me, before too much time went on, but we'd already been on a couple of dates and, and honestly, I liked the guy. So yeah, he was right. I personally don't identify fully as E N M. And I've also seen labeling themselves on dating sites. They will just straight up say, hello, I'm a 40 year old male, blah, blah, blah. I love dogs and E N M. So, so people will just put that out there, like on their dating profile,

Kathryn 11:09

Well, they should.

Marina 11:10

Must like dogs and, and be E N M.

Kathryn 11:14

You must like dogs and be open to me having sex with multiple people. Okay.

Marina 11:19

So that's the ethical part of it and, we're going to talk about how that actually can be a helpful antidote to all of the cheating and infidelity that we see that leads people to go post their, partner, their lover on, are we dating the same guy? If folks were open. let their partner know, Hey, I'm interested in, a non monogamous relationship and let's decide if that's right for us. And then they have to take the chance if the other person is going to say yes or no. But they at least give them a chance to take it or leave it when they don't. Then that's where all of the infidelity cheating and upset comes into place because now you've got at least one person who's under the assumption that they're having a monogamous relationship only to come to find out that they're the only one that's under that assumption, and they weren't given the information,

Kathryn 12:26

Well, right, I think that though that there's many parts to this, right? So you have the monogamous relationship, the ethical non monogamous, and as you said, an antidote to possibly. You know less infidelity being honest, but this goes back to people being honest with themselves, are they just needing a warm body next to them So they consent and they say sure i'll be an ethical non monogamous relationship, but ultimately that's not what they want and then so there's that And then there's the jealousy part of it, I have a story of someone. And of course, all of these people go nameless where he was in a relationship with someone and it did not end up going well. They both, all three parties agreed, but then this person was spending more time with this person. And then she started getting jealous and it ended up not being a good situation overall that they had to get out of. But there's a lot of people that, have these great relationships and it's their lifestyle choice and they're happy. Right. So let people be happy. There's so many unhappy people out there. I think people need to sometimes mind their own business a little bit as long as nobody's being harmed and everybody's being ethical, as we say, but, you know, I think there's many, many parts of this, whether you're in a monogamous relationship or a non monogamous relationship, are people being true with themselves as to what they're looking for and are, you know what I'm saying?

Marina 13:52

Yeah, I think that's where, as a society, I think we have a lot to grow. You know, one of the things that you and I talk about a lot, because we've both traveled pretty extensively outside the U. S., and both of our heritage comes from Eastern Europe. You know, we've traveled in Europe, we've traveled in,

Kathryn 14:12

Mm hmm.

Marina 14:13

Asia, other parts of the world, where cultural mores beliefs about relationships and expectations are quite different. And so I actually have to go back a little bit, first

Kathryn 14:26

Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence.

Marina 14:52

Sweden and Denmark and, these young women, they wanted to do a presentation about non monogamous relationship styles for the class. And one thing that they shared with me is that this is actually really common among young people in their country, in Scandinavia. It's really

Kathryn 15:11

Okay.

Marina 15:37

And, and that's kind of a norm. And also, when we actually looked it up there are way differing statistics on marriage in Europe from the U S for example,

Kathryn 15:49

Okay.

Marina 15:49

the marriage rate is much lower. In Europe, I remember you asked me, is the divorce rate different in Europe and in the U. S. and it is, it's a little bit lower in European countries, but also that's because the marriage rate is lower,

Kathryn 16:07

Yeah, it's a different lifestyle than the United States, you know, and keep in mind, United States, the majority of the states are very Bible belt, you know, And a lot of places like in Europe, Italy, all over, you mentioned Denmark, I've been to Denmark and they are more open. It's totally normal for a 16 year old to bring their girlfriend or boyfriend over to their parents home. And be sleeping in the room and the parents are fine with it. It's more open. It's not seen as such a big deal. Not to say that a lot of people in the United States are prude. I don't want to use that word, but it's just, it's just a different lifestyle. It's just living for today, enjoying yourself, loving yourself, loving the people around you. And it's just not so stringent for the most part.

Marina 16:51

I also wouldn't say necessarily prude because a lot of people talk about the openness of sex in America, but you have to remember still a young country compared to some countries in Europe that have been around for like a thousand years. I mean, the United States of America is a young country. Obviously the land ancestors have been here for a very long time, but the U S is a puritanical country. It was founded on these puritanical values, which still exist. And, while, this idea of non monogamy. Is part of the cultural conversation right now, still, you have to know that somewhere in the realm of like 90 percent of Americans get married at some point in their lifetime. That's a lot. a lot of people. This is, we're talking about in their lifetime, I've been married before you've been married before 90 percent of people have been married before,

Kathryn 17:55

because it's still prevalent it's still that's, you know, you grow up, you dream, the women dream of their weddings, right? Most of the time, you know, and it's kind of, you see your parents, I mean, how did you get the kids? A lot of times they were married. Of course, there, you can have children outside of marriage, but it's still monogamy is still seen as the number one, people. Thing to be you know what I mean? it's it's basically to be monogamous is the way but this allows this ethical non monogamy Allows people to say hey, wait a minute. This is also okay, and it goes back to Doing what's right for you being honest with yourself and and owning it

Marina 18:30

So I wanted to give just a couple of statistics that we found here bringing in, the contemporary conversation about non monogamy. So a recent poll in 2020 found that about one in four Americans believe in some form of non monogamy. another study suggests that about 5 percent of Americans actively practice ethical non monogamy. And also a couple of years ago in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy, they found also one in five people have engaged in this consensual non monogamy at some

Kathryn 19:08

Wow

Marina 19:09

so we're talking about, not a huge percentage that actually practice it somewhere in the realm of between five to maybe 20%, depending on how they really define it. And it's also something that I hear more and more because I do work with, younger adults, folks that are under 30 thing, that this is definitely a trend.

Kathryn 19:36

so why do you think that this is such an emerging trend with our young generation? You

Marina 19:47

traditional relationships and traditional attachment expectations, and perhaps a disillusionment with cheating. Some people actually do feel that monogamy may be a myth. Even my. Family lawyer even he said he did not believe. in monogamy. And this is a middle aged man. That has a family law practice. You know, he deals with, divorce and custody and himself, I think, was on maybe his second or third marriage.

Kathryn 20:23

Go. That's why he's dealing with divorce every day.

Marina 20:27

But he believed that we were not meant to be monogamous. I have an acquaintance who shares that belief as well as a different acquaintance. He wasn't able to join us on the show today but really shared his. story with me in great detail. We talked for about an hour and I'd known him for a while. I'll just call him Dee and he also really believes that we as humans were not meant to mate for life. He said, in fact, there's only a couple of animals that mate for life. And he did not believe that we as humans are one of them. So he really shared his journey in non conventional non monogamous relationships and really describes himself not in any particular term, but uses non conventional, non monogamous relationship. His perspective was that there are a lot of pitfalls of traditional monogamy. And his. Been in relationships where he had a partner that was a main partner. I think most people would describe it as a polyamorous relationship. Had a girlfriend and him and his girlfriend would share a girlfriend. At times that they would bring into the relationship. they would also participate in swingers retreats. They would, they would swing, which means they would swap partners where they

Kathryn 21:53

hmm.

Marina 21:54

I remember one time. They were here visiting San Diego and they were off to go to the desert, somewhere to some nudist swinger resort. And they invited me to, you know, they said, Hey Marina, we got room for other people.

Kathryn 22:09

Ah.

Marina 22:09

The resort's not full. Why don't you come? If you come by yourself, a single woman going to these things will be called a unicorn. You know, it's a nudist resort. You don't even have to pack, you don't have to bring anything. Just bring yourself, they'll give you a toothbrush,

Kathryn 22:22

Oh my gosh.

Marina 22:24

I politely declined. I don't really need to be a Chubby Unicorn at one of these resorts. It's not my thing. But I do recognize how it is for other people

Kathryn 22:34

I mean, the majority of my closest friends are in monogamous relationships and they're successful and they're happy, and they, have been married for many, many, years. So for me, like I said, in the beginning of this episode, it's something that I'm not overly familiar with because the majority of the people that. I'm surrounded with are in monogamous relationships and they're very happy, but you're absolutely right. The divorce rate is super high and infidelity is high. And this could be, like you said, a great antidote. I mean, you mentioned the swingers. I actually have a funny story where I went with some friends somewhere not knowing really where I am. If anybody knows my personality, I am an extroverted introvert, but I, Really, when I go somewhere to an event, I introduce myself, I hug people, I'm very, friendly, and Sometimes people take that the wrong way, and so I went and then once I figured out after about 20 minutes, what was happening, I go, oh my gosh, where is the exit? Like, I think I just got myself into something because I had all these people thinking that I was going to do something because I was being so friendly and nice when ultimately, I didn't know what was happening. So it was actually pretty funny at the time. I was a little scared, but I was like, okay, I just need to find the exit. And, you know, then I just, you know, started laughing. It was a cute experience.

Marina 23:57

So that's really, not your thing, but you know what we were saying that it could be an antidote to cheating, in fact, how my acquaintance and his partner had gotten into this relationship was that she, had been married previously Got divorced because she found out her husband was cheating on her. And one of the things that she had said was, if he had only told her he wanted to have an open relationship, she would have probably agreed. And then she herself decided to have a

Kathryn 24:35

Interesting.

Marina 24:36

You know, relationship with Dee and it seemed to work out and it was working out for years for them in that kind of a way,

Kathryn 24:44

It kind of reminds me of that movie. I think it was called Vicky, Christina, Barcelona with Scarlett Johansson and Penelope Cruz and Javier

Marina 24:53

Oh,

Kathryn 24:55

Barden. You know that movie?

Marina 24:56

that. Yes. I love that movie. Vicky Cristina Barcelona. Oh my God. That was such a sexy movie.

Kathryn 25:03

Yes, with sexy people in it. But you know how it ended. If anybody out there that's listening to this episode, it didn't end well.

Marina 25:12

No.

Kathryn 25:13

well. But that's not to say that all of these ethical non monogamous relationships don't end well or do end well, just like in monogamous relationships.

Marina 25:22

I think it's important to also consider kind of people may this Work for and who may it not work for. And I wanted to share, some resources. There's a, wonderful book called polysecure by Jessica Fern. And she really explores how attachment theory and these individual differences of our attachment styles apply to ethical non monogamy and polyamorous. Uh,

Kathryn 25:52

Relationships

Marina 25:52

to be more specific. So she really argues that traditional attachment models, which were really developed with monogamy in mind can be expanded and they can include people with multiple intimate relationships. if you're. familiar with attachment theory. It really explains how people feel secure with their intimate partner. And it stems from their early childhood attachment figure, like a mother figure. So there's different attachment styles. There's secure, then there's anxious, avoidant and disorganized and really. It's interesting because folks that have a secure attachment, now they feel confident in their relationship, they could probably manage multiple connections with people without excessive fear or jealousy. So that may work if they have a secure attachment style, that they may not get jealous if they're. love partner has another love partner. And also if somebody has an avoidant attachment style, now this is somebody who might actually avoid or resist emotional closeness. So for example, these kinds of people, they might actually use multiple relationships, to maintain distance. Like they don't want to get all that close to any one person.

Kathryn 27:14

to be intimate. I don't want to be intimate.

Marina 27:15

Yeah. So they're non monogamy, maybe a way to avoid closeness with any one person honestly, some of the people that I've known that have been ENM, I think they may fit into that category.

Kathryn 27:29

Yeah, and I mean, I feel like you can't just put someone in a box and label them, right? Like, there could be so many facets to this, so many divots, as to why someone might do something. At the end of the day, I think so many people are so involved in other people's lives when they should be focusing More on looking in the mirror and fixing, themselves and going, Oh, you know, I'm going to judge this person the way they live and ultimately then the people that are doing that ultimately are not happy, right? Because if you're happy, you're going to be focused on your life. You're not going to be like, Oh, so did you see this? Did you, you know, and gossiping let people be happy, you know, there's so many depressed people out there. If people are happy, let them live their lives because you know what? People in glass houses. Shouldn't throw stones, none of us are perfect. We've all made mistakes. I definitely 100% have made mistakes in relationship. It's still a work in progress for me, and I learn with each relationship. So it goes kind of back to being kind to one another and, communication, right? You know a lot about this Marina,

Marina 28:34

yeah, but you know what? I have to say yes and no. So with attachment theory, you actually can put people into attachment style categories. And there's been years of research on assessment. So, for example, folks that are. anxiously attached people that seek constant reinsurance. They may struggle with feelings of abandonment. people may not be a good fit for a non monogamous or polyamorous lifestyle because they'll constantly wonder, Oh my God, is my partner in love with somebody

Kathryn 29:08

They're like looking over their shoulder, Or

Marina 29:10

folks that meet criteria for a disorganized attachment style where they have like a mix of anxious, avoidant. This could lead to so much internal conflict that they don't even know what they want. So I think that in some ways, yes, people can be put into categories for attachment styles. But then again, we can't really judge or label

Kathryn 29:34

and people change. Well, some people

Marina 29:38

People, yeah, people can change and they can, change depending on their partner as well. There's a lot of assumptions about non monogamy. And the one thing that's true is that. Folks that are in ethically non monogamous relationships, polyamorous relationships, they have agreements and there's a structure to it. It's not just, oh, anything goes and everybody's sleeping with everybody all the time. No, they have agreements All relationships have some sort of spoken or unspoken rules and here you're not violating an expectation of monogamy, which is what leads to affairs and all the distress. Surrounding that, but there's still some sort of intentional structure that can help foster attachment security. So instead of relying on exclusivity, people develop sort of relational resilience, trust, reassurance, and you know, some personal growth.

Kathryn 30:40

Yeah, and having said that, we're talking about monogamous relationships, ethical non monogamy, but there's also another option. And this is what we're going to be getting into in our next episode about being single on purpose. There is nothing wrong with being single and loving your life. I think you mentioned that somebody came up to you and said, why are you single? And I've, I've had this too. And my answer is always, have you seen the men that are out there now? There definitely are wonderful, men. I just. Say that because that usually shuts them up pretty quickly. They'll go, Oh, Oh, yes, but yes, that's what we're going to be talking about, being single and why more and more people are choosing that over being in relationships

Marina 31:25

Definitely. I can't wait to talk about that one. And this time we've been really debunking this, these myth, misperceptions about ENM. And like to debunk the misperceptions about women being single and being happy

Kathryn 31:43

or men.

Marina 31:44

yeah. Or, or men being single on purpose. yeah,

Kathryn 31:48

I knew someone who decided that he dated, dated, dated and didn't find his person. He wanted to have kids. And so he just went ahead, got a surrogate, I believe is how that worked. And he had two kids that way, and that's what he chose. And he's very happy. He loves being a father. So it's growing and growing. So that's another dynamic to really look into. Why are more and more people choosing themselves, choosing number one, right?

Marina 32:14

Well, we won't give it all away now because

Kathryn 32:16

Now,

Marina 32:17

a lot to talk about with this one,

Kathryn 32:19

I'm excited to talk about it, but I will say I think we said a lot here, so I'm going to, take a sip of my tea.

Marina 32:27

oh, and I'll have a glass of my wine here. And definitely I wanted to leave you with some other resources as well. We talked about you know, ethical non monogamy we talked about poly secure by Jessica Fern. There's also another, well known book. It's called the ethical slut. Which really redefines. That's what it means to be a slut and talking about slut positivity, and in terms of ENM. there's quite a lot to talk about enough for a full bottle of wine here. So I'm definitely going to have another little menage a trois blend here.

Kathryn 33:10

Yes, because, and I don't know, you had mentioned you're not sure how everybody's having so much sex. But I said, wait a minute, they may not be having so much sex, they're just having multiple partners. But that's why I said, you know, I need to drink my well rested tea because I think of myself in this, I'm like, Oh my gosh, my body parts are getting a workout. But you know what? we talked about sex addictions and all these things, and some people are just very, very sexual, bless their souls. some people have said that I'm that way, and you know, it really goes back to, like I said, doing what's right for you, and that's what, you know, we're all about on Love Liaisons. So, I'm gonna take a sip of my tea.

Marina 33:52

And I'm going to have another sip of my wine just thinking about what you said.

Kathryn 33:57

Keep sexin no I'm kidding. Okay, keep sippin

Marina 34:01

Keep loving

Kathryn 34:01

keep laughin

Marina 34:03

and cheers for now.

Kathryn 34:06

from your Love Liaisons.