Episode 11: Searching for Something Real with Guest Eric

In this episode of Love Liaisons, Marina and Kathryn welcome Eric—a 37-year-old salsa dancer and dietitian looking for love—for a candid conversation about the highs and lows of modern dating. Together, they dive into everything from the “who pays” debate on first dates to the rise of situationships, swipe culture, and how social media continues to reshape expectations.

Eric offers an honest male perspective on what makes connection so elusive today, while Kathryn and Marina bring humor and insight to the challenges of navigating boundaries, communication, and clarity in relationships. Funny, thoughtful, and refreshingly raw, this conversation shines a light on what it really takes to search for something real in the 21st century.

Available now on Apple, Amazon, and Spotify Podcasts.

Follow us on FB: Love Liaisons

IG @ loveliaisons

TikTok @ love.liaisons

www.love-liaisons.com

Follow us on FB @Love Liaisons, IG @loveliaisons, TikTok @love.liaisons

www.love-liaisons.com

For more information about relationship and mindful life coaching  or speaking engagements contact Marina at marinaismindful@gmail.com

Transcript

Kathryn 0:04

Welcome to Love liaisons, the ultimate deep dive into the highs and lows and hilarities of modern relationships. I'm Kathryn,

Marina 0:16

and I'm Marina. And we'll be your love liaisons. So pour yourself a nice glass of wine or a hot cup of tea, and let's dive in. So today we're diving into dating through the decades and continuing this series with a special guest. We have Eric today who brings both rhythm and realness. But before we go and introduce Eric here, I'm curious. Kathryn, what are you drinking today for this episode?

Kathryn 0:47

I am drinking some green tea. And the reason I'm drinking green tea, as Eric reminded me, it's so good for you. It improves brain function, heart health. And let me tell you, I've had my heart pounded on a couple times, so I think green tea is what I'm gonna be drinking today. What about you, Marina? What do you have there?

Marina 1:08

I found this great wine that I think really fits with some of the questions we'll have today. It's called the second cheapest wine. And I'm having a glass of this today. I think it goes well with this episode because one of the things that we've been talking about and debating about is who should really pay for a date? Is it cheap if a guy doesn't pay? Should you be upset if he orders the cheapest wine or what about the second cheapest wine? I'm gonna have a sip of this and I poured Eric Glass too. What do you think about it?

Eric 1:43

Oh the red wine is great, except it stings in the back of my throat.

Marina 1:47

So maybe the second cheapest wine isn't the greatest thing and you should go for a little bit better. But I'd like to introduce Eric today. I actually met Eric Salsa dancing and you are 37. You're single, you're a salsa dancer. What else should we know about you?

Eric 2:06

That's salsa and bachata actually, but yeah, I'm a registered dietician nutritionist. I grew up in Los Angeles. I moved to San Diego when I was about 18, and I'm currently getting my master's in nutrition and dietetics just to further my knowledge and my career. And, I'm into fitness and health and quality, red wine.

Marina 2:27

One of the reasons I wanted to have you on is because we have this. Interesting conversation while we were salsa dancing last time I saw you and you shared some stories with me. So let's get to the heart of it. I'm curious, you mentioned you're single, you're a nice guy. What do you think you're looking for in a relationship?

Eric 2:47

Probably looking for somebody who is honest. They don't play any games. Not somebody that is really, oh, following what society is telling us. Someone that's easily a sheep. Looking more for somebody who is willing to stick it out in a relationship. I believe there are. People and they say don't settle. There's that fine line between not settling and working things out in a relationship, and you want to maintain that middle area. And I'm looking for somebody who's willing to stick it out. And that doesn't mean I'm gonna abuse them and I want 'em to stick it out, but it means they're going to give it an effort and try to make it work. And without having the idea of I got Johnny as an option, or Michael or Thomas or Ken, and to try to take things, slow, but try to give it an actual effort.

Kathryn 3:44

What you said there is really pivotal because really what separates the people that stay together and the ones that don't, one of the main reasons is the two people are willing to make it work. When one hops off the bandwagon and they're not wanting to make it work anymore, you can't dance the tango anymore. Exactly.

Eric 4:02

Sometimes I see couples and I see them together after 20 years, 25 years, 30 years. And I usually ask what's your secret? What's the secret? Why are you guys still together? What is it? And they'll say different things. They said, we'll give each other space. We keep it light. We never give up, a lot of qualities that I look for in a partner because when my parents got divorced, and I don't really want to do that. And I still want to have kids, but I'm not, I don't want to have kids with someone that's not willing to stick it out. And yeah, I agree with you.

Kathryn 4:38

And it can be hard to know, in the beginning if that person is gonna be that individual that sticks it out. So when you say that, and you're going out on a date how do you tell if that person is actually going to be there for the long haul, so to speak?

Eric 4:55

That's a really good question. With men fall in love right away. They fall in love or they fall in lust right away with the female nature. From my experience, it takes time. It takes time to see how they act, what they do for them to fall for you to. Taking the space. Usually the space away from the man is when they're starting to think more about him. How does he act? Is he needy? Is he insecure? Is he masculine? Is he got his stuff together? Is he making me his world? Little things that the woman start to see, Hey, is this man worth sticking it out for? So I don't think I can really see that quite right away, but those are actions that I'll notice. But I can also tell, are you a type of woman who's, going on plenty of dates? And I can also pick up on that as well. And that's already a red flag. And I would think twice about that kind of person. I have to be honest. So here you go.

Kathryn 6:00

That's what you want. Yeah. So when you say it's a red flag, when a woman goes on a lot of dates, what do you consider a lot of dates and what do you consider the definition of dating?

Eric 6:10

I don't necessarily have a definition of a lot of dates. So I don't really have a number per se, I can tell when a woman or man, they have, a lot of options and they're all at your fingertips. And when you have a lot of options, you're not really sticking it out. It's just almost a hu it's a human nature, so to speak. It's a human nature. To invite so many options, man or woman. This is not just about women, this is men too. It's human nature to not really try to stick it out with a person or give it your all or give it enough effort when you have other options, opening yourself up to op other options. And like I said, that's both sexes.

Marina 7:00

I was really intrigued when you shared a little bit about this with me last time we talked and I think that. Your take is a bit unusual for a lot of the sort of typical guy, especially, California guy and I was really taken by how you said you don't really like dating around or you don't really like the idea of dating apps where you go on like date, after date. So it sounds like you're looking for somebody that you click with and you'd like to just, take it one person at a time.

Eric 7:34

That's absolutely true. I think I'm a simple man, but it's a little counterintuitive because in one in instance when the man has a bunch of options, the woman will read that and, say I better have my act together because he's got other options. He's gonna go to the next person. And then there is that balance along with, do I wanna have so many options? But at the same time, I'm gonna have so many options. I don't have time. I don't have time to be texting, messaging, meet me here, let's go there, let's go for a drinks, let's go for dinner. Let's go to a movie. I don't have time for that. I have my own life. And so I'm really particular with my time with whom I would make time for to just, 'cause I have to put things aside. I'd have to put my friends aside. I'd have to put salsa dancing aside. I have to put work aside family, and for me to put that aside for having all these options is not gonna work for me. It's gonna take away from my life. And that's my perspective.

Marina 8:35

Dating is like a part-time job. So I don't know about you, Kathryn, I've started dating again, and it really is, you have, people messaging you and then you need to try to make plans with them. And then it's like job interviews. You just wait until you find someone that you eliminate, I assume you're looking for one woman.. You're not ethically non-monogamous or polyamorous. You're looking for one partner, right?

Eric 9:05

Yeah, one partner. I don't think I have the ability to be unfaithful. I'm not saying I'm the greatest, nicest person in the world. I'm a nice person, but I think. The way I grew up I think I saw my mom. My mom was very loyal to my father, and I learned a lot from her. And it's pretty easy to be faithful to a partner. I think a lot of people are I unfaithful in that they are looking for some type of validation and sometimes they have to look at themselves rather than look at, let me see who's gonna make me feel great today, who's gonna make me feel alive? And sometimes that's not gonna happen in a relationship. Sometimes, you're not gonna always feel alive. Sometimes the guy is tired, sometimes the girl's tired, sometimes he's got work, sometimes he's got other obligations, sometimes there's other things. So yeah, I like to have something that's more committed. And I don't get me wrong I'm committed. I'm not gonna let myself go. I still will go to the gym. I still will take care of myself. I still will keep up with myself and that's my nature.

Kathryn 10:12

So I have actually a question for you, Eric. 'cause you mentioned something. I wanna go back I just wanna understand what you're saying are you saying because of social media, dating apps, all these things that people, instead of giving the person that they're on the date with now, more of a chance and go out in a second, third, fourth date, see if there could possibly be a connection as opposed to just, okay, you know what? I don't think this really worked. I'm just gonna go on to the next person. So are you saying giving it more of a chance? Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Eric 10:43

Yeah. What I'm saying is when there are so many options. I wanted to make this point. I remember I took a class in psychology I was a psychology major and took cognitive psychology, and I remember a whole discussion and teacher would speak about that. The brain is not able to handle too much stimuli. There was all kinds of science behind it. And the teacher was really explaining how people are unable to handle too much stimuli and people work best with less stimuli. So I bring that back to social media Tinder, Bumble, plenty of Fish Instagram, Facebook, any social media platform where there are a bunch of options at your fingertips. I believe when. If you're a female or even a male and you're getting hit up and you're getting I'm interested in this interest, this one's interested, and this one's interested, you're gonna go out on a date and you're gonna have that in the back of your mind of you know what? I got this one interested and that one interested. Why settle for the first one? It's just that mentality. Why settle for this one, even though that could be the best match? It's almost human nature to say, why settle for this? Let me try the rest. And when you go in with that mentality, it's a no-win situation.

Marina 12:05

Yeah. It's interesting. We know a woman actually who recently is in a good relationship, and I remember she had this goal that she was gonna go on 50 dates, 50, at least 51st dates. It sounds like that movie, 51st dates. But no, she didn't have a head trauma. She just was going to not stop until she really met somebody that was significant and she was gonna try a lot of people. And it really reminds me of what it was like dating when we were younger, or at least when I was younger. We didn't have social media there was really no internet until I was in college. When I was in high school. You'd meet somebody just by, circumstance, a friend of a friend, and you kind of like each other enough and you're not dating like five other people or you're not on the internet looking at basically like a whole menagerie of options. There's just this one guy and you're going on dates and you see if it works out and you make it work out. And I actually see my son doing that now, and what you're saying is more mindful approach. Like you just take, do one thing in the moment, one person in the moment, and see how it goes.

Kathryn 13:21

So I was gonna say, 'cause we had on one of our episodes a matchmaker, and this is something that she brought up that a lot of people will say, I want this. She has to be blonde, she has to be this. And she was trying to open their minds a little bit so to speak and say, Hey, give this person a chance because you don't know, they may have half of the qualities you're looking for, but okay, they're not blonde. Okay. They can dye their hair or maybe it's okay, maybe you might end up liking a burnette. I'm just using that as an example. But I think sometimes if people don't have that instant gratification where they feel that connection or chemistry right away, they're like, oh, this must not be my match. And so it's giving it some time. You need to go bare minimum on two dates with someone and not the movies, not, at a restaurant, try to go in the park, have a walk, where it's just the two of you of course. Nowadays, you gotta be careful because you don't know if you can trust everyone. So there's that component, but that's what they're saying is get out where you can actually have a deep conversation and really get to know the person. But I think a lot of people today will do that where they'll just say, oh, I didn't have instant connection. I don't have instant chemistry, and so I'm just not gonna move forward and guess what? I'm gonna swipe to the left and find someone or right. Whatever it is, and find my next view.

Eric 14:43

Absolutely. I think back to the relationships that I did have, the times I was actually in love or maybe almost halfway there. And, but even for myself and for her, I was never blown away the first time. It was never like blown away even the second time. I was like, oh, this person's decent.. But if I'm having all these other options I'm like it was decent, but, I wanna be blown away. And I agree. I think with the current culture, people wanna be blown away and be like, wow, that guy was, it's like you have to have all your i's dotted, your t's crossed, it's like the current pressure to, you have to look a certain part. You gotta carry yourself with a certain confidence. You gotta have money in the bank or enough money in the bank. And now I know those things are important, but it's just that pressure of if I don't have all the bubbles filled out, they're gonna go for somebody who does have those bubbles filled out., It is it's a current pressure and I think society has it where with the current culture, it's almost acceptable and that's why people go into what's called situation ships.

Marina 16:00

Yeah, we talked about that situationship. In one of our last episodes. But, it really struck me what you are saying, that it's okay if you're not blown away by somebody. You like them and you see some sort of a foundation. So does it seem to you that your feelings, your love, your vision of that woman grows once you have more of a secure foundation?

Eric 16:29

Yes. Absolutely. I, like I said earlier in the conversation, the man is, falls in love, more quickly and the woman takes some time. But regardless it's still building. You're building comfort. First, especially for a woman, you're building comfort first. Is he gonna, is he gonna physically harm me? And then, the man should, at that point, start building attraction and then comfort, and then closeness, and then you can take it from there.

Kathryn 16:59

So I have a question because this was brought up I think in one of our episodes as well, that the first thing unless you're talking on the phone ahead of time, is that physical attribute. So immediately, right off the bat, the person is already, judging or trying to decide, am I physically attracted to this person? And then they start thinking about that instead of really focusing on the conversation. And it's almost like you're auditioning for a role where what do you do for a living? What do you do for fun? What are your hobbies? They're, they have a hundred questions when you just wanna have something organic, and just really get to know the person. And this is what I keep hearing in the thing. Marina, we had that matchmaker on and that's what she was saying. Having those organic conversations, really getting to know someone and also knowing what you need and what you can give to the person. What are you looking for? What's realistic as opposed to idealistic? And what are you going to give? You mentioned the comfort, security. We had a couple on and she says she likes to feel safe and her husband makes her feel safe. So that's something that's gonna come later. So if we get back to the first date and what happens on the first date, like my dad said, the man picks you up, brings you flowers. I'm like, dad, that doesn't happen anymore. Or at least not that much. So we can talk about that too. What does the first date look like? Who plans it, who pays for it? All those good things.

Eric 18:22

In my opinion, I think the guy should pay for it because the guy is leading, the guy is leading the relationship, and I think the guy should pay for it Now. I don't think he should be going to. What are some of the steak places around town that are like $200 a plate?

Kathryn 18:37

Oh, michelin Star restaurants.

Eric 18:39

Michelin Star restaurants. Fogo De Chow. Spago. But I don't think that should be a first date. I don't think that should be a basis of any relationship, whether he has money or he doesn't, but I do think the guy should pay for it because it's showing that he's leading. However, if I'm going to a restaurant and I see that she's gonna get the most expensive thing on the menu and order this drink and that drink and dessert, I think I would be turned off. So I wouldn't put myself in that position. I would keep it more simple. Maybe a smoothie. Maybe ice cream. Maybe tea. And if I go eat something, it'd probably wouldn't be anything more than. Olive garden i, but I would wait down the line in that position.

Kathryn 19:25

So it's interesting because you said the man is leading it, and so I have a lot of girlfriends where they ask the guy out. So she was actually leading it and saying, Hey, let's go here. There's a great little, place by the beach to eat. It's a cafe. We're gonna get some cappuccino and croissants. And so she's actually leading it. So if she's leading it then who pays? So this, we'll get into this conversation, but I feel the same way. In that aspect, I really feel like on a first date, especially first date, a man. Should pay, he should be a gentleman. If you don't wanna go out, you can even make sandwiches and we can eat at the beach, whatever it is. Do what you can afford. But I feel like the man should come up with a plan as to what's gonna happen on the first date. It could be a walk around Balboa Park. So for those of you that don't live in San Diego, Balboa Park is gorgeous. It has museums greenery,, art and culture. It's amazing. So there's lots of things, free things to do in San Diego. But I definitely think if you're going out breakfast, lunch, whatever it may be, that the man should pay. I've been on dates where the man will say, okay, your part is, and I'm like thinking in my head, he's not getting a second date,

Marina 20:39

So basically you don't want somebody to order you the second cheapest wine. You wanna be able to order whatever wine you want.

Kathryn 20:47

And they better not be ordering for me unless I've told them, okay, I want the spaghetti bolognese or whatever, but I can't stand that when the man's yes. And she will have, and he hasn't even asked me what I want to eat or drink.

Marina 20:59

So I actually like it when a guy pays on the first date or, a couple of dates and then we could sort of establish it. But, I had this experience where I went out a couple of times with this guy and I realized he didn't really want to order much. But. I was under the impression we're having dinner. So I ordered, just some little thing and it wasn't anything super expensive. And initially he wanted to go to Applebee's and I nix that. I'm like, I am not leaving the house dressed up, with like heels and makeup on to go to Applebee's. I can take my child to Applebee's. Okay, so we're gonna do something better than that. So we went to a Chinese place that wasn't like that expensive or anything. So we went out a couple of times and then it just, it didn't, it ended up not working out for, whatever reasons. There just wasn't that kind of attraction there. And I think that he was wanting to get too physical too fast. I didn't really like that Anyway, he ended up then throwing it in my face and complaining, saying, I paid each time. And last time, you didn't even offer to pay for your margarita. We had literally met at Miguel's and I had one margarita. I was like, do you want me to Venmo you $10? Like how cheap are you gonna be? We're not talking about the second cheapest wine. It's now you wanna get mad at me for you paying for a margarita. That's just too much. I definitely feel if that happened to me, I would literally just take out the $10 and give it to, and be like, have a nice life. I just don't have time, especially at my age, but I think I've always been this way, even my twenties or thirties. Do what you can afford and it just, it makes everything uncomfortable when you do that if you are a man or a woman. Okay, and you're going out on a date already. Have your expectations set up is what I would say. So you know what you're going to do and what your non-negotiables are, and set boundaries ahead of time. You could even have that conversation ahead of time, and I will, I'll let the guy know, Hey look, I'm the type of girl that wants the guy to pay on the first date. That will absolutely say, no, put your wallet away. But then maybe I'll make him cookies or his favorite dessert, or he'll offer to pay the tip or some. Or if he Ubered, I'll say, Hey, can I get your Uber? But once again, if he says yes, then that's gonna be a red flag to me. Because here's the thing, people wanna date. If you can't afford to date, and I know I'm gonna get some backlash on this, like then don't do it. Or. Go to a place, like I mentioned, walk around Balboa Park, But the bottom line is you wanna be honest. Eric, you were saying be honest about, hey, this is the expectations. I'm not a person that eats out fancy dinners. I'm not this should have already been established unless you're just saying, Hey, let's just meet. And you didn't have much of a conversation beforehand. So I wanna bring up this issue. I've had a couple of really nice guy friends. One who's just a family friend, another one who I dated a little while ago. And. These were two situations like where you just said, Kathryn, if you don't have the money, maybe you shouldn't date. But I'm curious what you think about this, Eric that I've had two experiences with two really nice guys who were going through some financial difficulty. They were in the process of switching jobs, or one became a single father and was really struggling with that. And so they were struggling a bit financially, but they were really good people with a great heart and they just felt like they didn't even want to date or ask me or anybody else on a date because they felt like they weren't. In the financial position that they wanted to be to go court and date a woman. And from my perspective, I felt I was in a good position at the time and I just wanted to spend the time with them and help them build something. I don't know. I'm curious, what's your perspective about, does a man have to be at a certain financial level to even entertain the idea of dating? Or can you allow a woman to help build something with you together?

Eric 25:18

I think those men were basing that decision off of their ego. And I don't mean ego in a bad way, ego, as in, I don't want to put myself in a position where I'm unable to provide for this person the healthy ego, but. I think they can be open to the idea of, a woman helping. If that was me, I would certainly be, that would turn me on. I would be very happy. I would think that you're making the effort, if that means that down the line, you're not expecting me to carry everything all the time. But I think at the end of the day, I would wanna lead and pay for things like dinner or coffee or tea. But I don't want, a gold digger. I wouldn't want to buy you some Armani purse but. I wouldn't definitely not want a gold digger, so I would probably establish myself. So if I go to, first or second date you're going to a very expensive restaurant, you're saying, Hey, I can afford this. And if you're going to McDonald's, you're saying, I can afford this. You go to Applebee's, you say I'm an Applebee's kind of guy. And I'm sure that woman is going to read that and say, Hey, do I want an Applebee's kind of income? And it's up to the man to establish himself as that. And you can't really blame the woman for judging him based on where he's going.

Kathryn 26:41

And once again, that's really a good point that you made. And there are some people out there that. Love going to Applebee's. So it's finding your person, what you're wanting, what you're looking for. I think I've been to Applebee's maybe once in my entire life. But I'm, I would be open to it. I don't know about a first date, but there are some people that are like, what's, listen to this going, what's wrong with Applebee's? What's wrong with McDonald's? So it's just, I always say, do you know what make makes you happy? But the whole point of this is when we go back to who pays and all this it, there, has to be communication. Just because you pay on the first date doesn't mean you're gonna pay every date. There has to be, some sort of line of communication. And I think that's where a lot of people miss the ball, not only in finances, but in everything. It could be sex, it could be anything where somebody is not sharing really how they feel in all of these areas. And I think that's part of the problem is where. People need more skills on how to communicate. Or maybe they don't really know themselves, it's not just money. What if somebody has a mental health disorder? Right now there are so many people that have some sort of mental health disorder. So does that mean that you shouldn't date because you have some sort of mental health disorder, or some disease, so it really goes back to finding the person that meets you where you're at. I feel.

Eric 28:03

I agree with you.

Marina 28:03

So I'm not going on a date to Applebee's. So just letting people know out there. And it's not even the amount of money, like the amount of money you could spend at Applebee's. I'd rather go to a little Chinese. Restaurant or like a little ethnic Korean place or something like that. Something just more creative. But this reminds me the last time that I was back in Ukraine. It was about 20 years ago. Certainly I was in graduate school and I was on a grant there, on a research grant, but I made friends with local people and it was a local couple. They didn't have a lot of money, but. I wanted to go out with them and some other folks that were there, some of the Americans that were there from like the Fulbright program. So this local couple, I invited them out. I said, you know what, it's okay. It's my treat. And it was a guy and a girl. They were young-ish, couple in their twenties. And I said, it'll be my treat. And reluctantly they went. But then afterwards, and I don't even remember where we went, it wasn't like a super expensive place, it was like a bar, cafe, whatever. And for me, whatever I spent, maybe it was like 20 bucks, like as an American, it was like no big deal to me. And afterwards, the guy from the couple pulled me aside and he said, I wish you didn't do that. I felt uncomfortable saying no, because my girlfriend was there, but you really embarrassed me. I'm a man and here you are. You came and paid for me and my girlfriend, don't ever do that again. I'm really upset with you. And I had to take a step back because there was a whole like cultural dimension to it too. I thought I was just being nice. It was like, Hey, I'm coming here with American dollars. Like I realize I want to all to join me, so I'm just gonna, spend 10, 20 bucks. To me it's nothing. And, but to him it really hurt his ego and it was like culturally inappropriate.

Kathryn 30:01

So this goes back to communication and I think I'll use myself as an example with my recent ex. I think one of the downfalls is we just couldn't understand how we saw things, right? And so this goes back to really understanding and doing the work, which is lifelong. You're always gonna be doing the work. You both are in psychology and it's something that doesn't stop, but that's why the divorce rate is getting higher and higher is because people aren't doing the work. You mentioned Eric, is having so many options. People are going out and saying, ah, my wife isn't having sex with me every night anymore, like she did in the first three months of us dating. Maybe I'll go find someone that will provide me the sex. And then they realize, wait a minute. But she's not my wife. And so there's this, all these things going on right now, but there still are many people out there listening to this going, what are they talking about? Because there are gentlemen and there are morals and values and they go to church every Sunday or what have you, and there's that foundation laid. But where we get across the line. Is, like you mentioned, situation ships, and all these new terms that I didn't even know what they were. We talked about ethical non-monogamy in an episode, and I'm thinking, what is this? Tell me more about this because it's just something that's getting more and more prevalent. So what do we do with this moving forward? How do we get to a point where people can get into relationships and actually stay in relationships and have some level of happiness? You're not gonna be a hundred percent happy all the time. People, you need to realize that you're gonna have arguments. And if you talk to any therapist, they will tell you arguments are healthy for a relationship. But how do you argue? Do you raise your voice, do this. It's also cultural in some cultures. It's totally normal to raise your voice, but in American culture, that's not normal. So there's all these factors involved and I think it makes it that much harder for people to connect. But that's just my 2 cents.

Eric 32:04

Can I say something? Marina, when you and I were dancing while we were dancing, we were having a conversation. That's how great I became a, as a dancer, I can count the music, go to the rhythm, and talk about relationships with you all the same time, and avoid the people around us. So

Kathryn 32:20

talented.

Marina 32:21

Yeah. And you shared a story with me about, how you met this woman at the gym. And you were quite fond of her, and you had this kind of this little gym relationship. And then tell us what happened.

Eric 32:34

That's really interesting because, the culture at the gym is women have their headphones on, they don't wanna be bothered. They're working out, they're looking maybe in some skimpy outfits, some of them are and they don't want to get hit on, they don't want guys looking at them. But, I'm really pretty organic and I will go and sometimes approach a girl and say, oh, I start talking to her and, one day I saw a girl and she looked like she minds her own business. She looks like she had an her own energy. She just gave off the vibe that she doesn't follow. What everyone does. So I started talking to her and I think the first line I told her was she was doing some glute exercises actually. And so I'm thinking, how can I come off talking about glute exercises, without coming off a dirty man, so I, it was really funny 'cause I told her I said, my guy friend says I need to do some glute exercises and I saw you doing 'em and I'm trying to figure out why you do this one and why you don't do that one and why you do that one. So I just started striking up a conversation with her, and really at the time, I just wanted to just say hi and talk to her, wasn't thinking too much in depth. She started talking to me and getting in depth and telling me about this and, talking about, she was very talkative. Oh, she's actually pretty cool, and I, got her name and she got my name and I said say hi if you see me again. And I wanted to put it out there to say, Hey, you see me, say hi. And sure enough, she saw me again and she waved at me and I started talking to her again, and we chatted for a few minutes. And, I made her laugh and I realized, I made her laugh. I'm at the gym. I better exit while I was good. So I said, oh, I'll see you later. And it happened a few more times. And then I saw her again a few more times. And then, oh, the last time I saw her before the last I saw her, it was really funny. I was, I went to go shoot some basketball. I used to play basketball in high school, so I was shooting some baskets and I had the ball and I was bouncing it and literally fell right behind me. To her. Literally bounced right to her. And so then I started chatting for a few minutes and then she went to go work out, and then I left. So the, finally the last time I saw her she came and she saw me and she came and approached me. She gave me a really big hug. She gave me a hug at the gym, which is a little unusual. Not in an unusual and a negative way, but, she, I think she was building comfort with me and she gave me a hug. She asked me how I'm doing. I started talking to her and I said, Hey, there's a car show and are you free on Thursday? She's oh no, I work on Thursday evenings. I can't make it. And she seemed, interested, she wanted to know when it was. Then I told her, Hey, you know what? I'm gonna be honest with you. I'd really, I'd like to get to know you better. And she's like, whoa. What do you mean. I said, just get to know you better. And she got a little defensive. She said, I got out of a relationship pretty recently. I'll see you around.. I'll just stick to the gym. I'll see you around. And I said, okay. And I walked away and I was really shocked. I didn't know what, she interpreted. Saying, I want to get to know you better. Maybe I wanna get to know you better as a new, make babies with me and have my children, and it was an underlying pressure, but really, I didn't mean any pressure by it meant get to know you as a friend and just take it from there. And I obviously would've maintained something to her level and not push beyond what a person is comfortable with, but I couldn't really relay all that information.

Kathryn 36:14

That's really interesting. This goes back to what I was saying with the communication is you don't know what a person's going through. You don't know what they're thinking in their mind. And at that point in time. You get still or frozen, instead of asking, Hey, I want to get to know you. I meant that, possibly as a friend, I see that this is triggering for you, or whatever word you wanna use or that you're bothered by this. And I definitely don't want that. I see what the gym all the time and I wanna make sure we're good. So talk to me. It seems like you're very uncomfortable with the fact that I said, I'd like to get to know you better. Tell me why. And so many people do this and then they make assumptions about, oh this person's this and like you said, if she did just get out of a relationship, maybe she is not looking for that. And maybe that's what she thought you meant is that you want to go out on a date and then another date and, but she also didn't communicate and say, Hey look, I think you're great. Right now I'm just not ready for anything. At which point in time you would've said, Hey, let's just go out as friends. Although we all know a straight man and a straight woman is very hard for them to be friends. I do have male friends, but ultimately I know in the back of my head that if it came to it probably would have sex. I'm just gonna put it out there 'cause it's very hard for a man and woman that are both straight to have just a friendship. There are, friendships out there, but that's what I'm saying. Both parties there didn't communicate. And I think this is the issue moving forward is. People don't have the tools or they get scared or what have you.

Marina 37:45

So Kathryn, you bring up, one of my favorite questions from when Harry Met Sally. That was actually my favorite movie growing up. And I knew that I was going to be working, as a relationship therapist, relationship researcher, when I knew, I loved that movie. And one of the key questions they ask is, is it possible for men and women to just be friends? What do you think given you scared this girl off at the gym?

Kathryn 38:13

He didn't scare her off. The next time you see her, if you do ask her, say, I feel like, there was a disconnect when I told you this and I just wanted to communicate with you and find out. I didn't want to cause any, ill feelings but I wanna make sure that we're good and I wanna resolve this. Go from there. So you have that opportunity if you see her again to approach her and just say, Hey, I wanted to talk to you about the conversation we had the last time I saw you. Cool.

Eric 38:39

I think I did trigger something because I haven't seen her I'd see her once a week and I haven't seen her for three weeks. And she might have felt some type of pressure, but yes, I absolutely would definitely say that to her. She was a sweet girl and I don't mind being friends with her. I thought she was a quality girl and I'll definitely do that, Kathryn, i'll think about you when I do that. I might even call you afterward, because

Kathryn 39:06

something happened and we don't know and we can't know, the trauma people have had, I'm not saying she has trauma, but I'm just saying we don't know what's going on in someone's world. It may have had nothing to do with you. Maybe she was thinking about something else. You don't know until you have that conversation and then she could say, oh, I didn't realize, or, no, this happened. Or there was, a death in the family or whatever. And that's why I haven't been to the gym. We don't know until we have those conversations.

Eric 39:30

Actually she has, told me that, her ex-boyfriend was a narcissist. And one of the things that we bonded was, is, I hate to put this out there, but my brother's a narcissist. And and I know. How they can be. And I got out of a relationship where she had a lot of narcissistic traits. I'm not sure if she's a full on narcissist, but enough things that caused some trauma in me. And actually we both pretty much connected. I think she felt a level of comfort with me because I was sharing a little bit about my experience. I didn't want to share too much and have her be my therapist. So it was just a little bit of detail. And so I understood where she come came from. And I think that's my, that might be where she is coming from. So I don't really blame her. But I'll definitely would try to correct it with her. But to answer your question, marina, that's a really good question. Can men and women be friends? Yeah. Remember that from that movie? I think the answer is yes and no. I have a friend that I have met through dancing. Her name is Christina and beautiful girl, and I found her beautiful. Right away we clicked, but we clicked as friends and she trusts me in her home. I trust her in mine. She trusts me to drive her if she's drinking and we're good friends and she knows I'm attractive. She said you're attractive. She's attractive woman, but we keep it as friends and we know that it's better that way and we don't allow it to get to that point. And she talks about people. She's dated. I talked about people I've dated and it's okay. And we've established that we pretty much friend zone each other. It's just for the better. And so it doesn't go into that path of, oh, are we more than friends? It doesn't go there. We just, have the mature thing to keep it as friends. Now, if, let's say this girl that I'm mentioning at the gym and if I were to hang out with her, I don't see her as her friend. I see her more. I'm sure she's probably seeing me into that realm too, of, he's not a friend. And so I think there's that tension between her and I. So even if she's not ready for a relationship and I go out with her, there is that friendship. There may be friendship, but there's friendship with that tension, that man, woman tension, that man, woman flirtation her and I already have. Been flirtatious at the gym. Like I do a workout and she comes and does the same one. I said, Hey, copycat, and you wanna do your own? I'll tease her like that. And it's still that man, woman, we're not like her. And I would never be friends. It would never be, we would start off as friends, but it's not gonna be that, and you girls know what I'm talking about. There's that look or that, things like that you know.

Marina 42:36

You started out wanting to know about her butt workout.

Kathryn 42:40

So I was gonna say, I don't know if you all know who Steve Harvey is. But he talks about this all the time. He is all over social media. And a lady was asking, she has her partner there. I don't know if she was married or boyfriend or what he is, but she had her partner there. And his concern was that she has this really great male friend. And so right off of the bat he's yeah, no, he's maybe a 5% chance. Most men and women, he's eventually that male friend is going to want more. Now, once again I have male friends, but I ultimately know in the back of my head if they have the chance, they might take it to the next step. Unless they're, like I said, not straight or something like that. Or we have set those boundaries and there is an understanding and it's firm hey, this is just a friendship, but it could lead to something. But that brings me to something else. You never want to, for me. I don't wanna live my life where I'm thinking it could happen. I just wanna live my life, be around people that add to my life. And if I have a male, female, whatever friend, the partner in my life needs to understand that I am going to have both male and female friends. And so I set that out there immediately. But a lot of men, a lot of my male friends will say, Kathryn, no, you cannot have male friends like that, because it could possibly lead to something. So that's an interesting viewpoint.

Marina 44:05

Yeah. Your male friend definitely has a crush on you and thinks you're so pretty. I actually do have a few, male friends that are just friends. One I've known for ages. But we actually started out liking each other. And when we were like teenagers, we started out liking each other and I think we maybe only shared like a hug and a kiss or something, and that didn't go anywhere. And then we ended up circling back later and became good friends. But if I was a hundred percent honest. It's that I wasn't attracted to him in that kind of a way. And we really see each other as like brother and sister. Like we, we tell each other, we love each other. He's now married, I love his wife. He's seen me get married and divorced and he was actually the only person who told me I shouldn't marry my ex-husband. And said, because he doesn't appreciate your sense of humor like I do. And I just thought he was jealous. But he was absolutely right. And a couple of other people that I'm like just friends with, we've never had anything sexual. One guy from college we're actually having a reunion of our study abroad, trip to Russia where we used to hang out, drink a little, smoke a little, play a little guitar, do a little dance, drink a little wine, get down a night dance. Yeah. But yeah, never had anything sexual, but in most cases I think that if there is that attraction, at least on one person's part, then it could definitely go. So, if you don't find them attractive or there's some sort of a boundary that you would never cross, like for example, I have a couple of wonderful male colleagues. One of them is happily married. He, he is lovely and adorable and I see him like, when I go and visit Colorado I would never, cross any kind of a boundary. That, that's just my ethics as well. But yeah it could be. It's a challenging question.

Kathryn 46:13

So that's interesting though. And Eric brought up a point earlier about how women, it takes them a little bit more time. So that's the thing is you could have a 20 year friendship and let's say neither of you are married, you might one day look at one another and go, you know what? We have this amazing connection. So we talk about connection, chemistry, and you end up together. Why is that? And they say, sometimes your best friend ends up being your lover or your partner because you already have that emotional connection. It's just there. And sometimes you, all of a sudden the person starts to become physically attractive too because you start seeing their intelligence, their soul shines through, all these things. I know for me, I will look at someone and go he is good looking, but if he opens his mouth and doesn't have anything remotely intelligent to say, or calls me a dude. Hey dude, let me tell you about the story. I immediately there's no coming back for me. There's no he has to have some sort of eloquent speaking to some degree and have some sort of story. So if you don't have a book education, then I wanna know, have you traveled the world? Do you speak a couple languages? Are an avid, chef? There, has to be something there. Especially if right off the bat there isn't that physical connection, but I know for me, those deep connections is what does it for me. And then the physical, usually comes. That's me. I'm not normal. I don't even know what normal means, but especially as I'm getting older, I'm realizing, okay, it's okay if he has a little tummy, it's okay if he's losing his hair. It's because guess what? I'm getting gray hair. People keep it real like you are not perfect. There's only so much Botox. I don't even do that. My ears aren't even pierced There's only so much that you can do. The bottom line is you are gonna get older, you are gonna lose cognitive function. You are gonna, have all these things. So you need to be realistic about your list, so to speak, and what you're looking for. But this kind of goes back to, let's bring this back to dating. And why dating today is so tough. So I know, Eric, you've, have a dating history. We all do, Mar and I do as well. Ultimately, what is the reason beyond social media having options? What do you feel Eric is the real reason why it is so hard to date right now? Why is it such challenge in 2025 to have successful dates? Have people show up to dates to actually get to the next level where you've gone past first, second date?

Eric 48:47

I think people have in lieu of social media, I think people have. Unrealistic expectations. You go and put your best foot forward on social media, your best pictures, whether it's men or women, and people. There's a saying in my culture I won't say it in Farsi, but it's basically, it means people believe what they see. You don't believe what you hear, you don't believe what you smell, you believe what you see. and so what is social media, and you have this perception of what you think you deserve, whether it's man or woman. And even if you're not looking at social media at the time, even if you're not social media dating, you start getting that perception of I deserve this. And look this person took a picture of them going on a trip, or this picture took a picture of them eating at the expensive place So I think, people have unrealistic expectations. I think people are searching more now than ever for some type of validation. I'm not trying to put other people down because do I have things that I need to work on for myself? Of course. Of course I know I lack certain things and things I need to work on and I think a lot of people are looking to other people to fulfill those voids to make themselves feel better and looking for validation. And I think that's happening a lot. And for me, myself, I was, I got out of a relationship not my choice, and it was a very unhealthy one, and I loved her to death and, it hurt me. And I had to really take a step back and say, okay, Eric, you need to work on yourself and you need to, why did you allow this to happen and why did you allow that to happen? And what were you thinking? And so I had to look in the mirror e even though I wasn't the one with the issue, but I still had to look in the mirror and say Eric, you need to work on yourself.

Kathryn 50:48

So you brought up a couple things there and you said unrealistic expectations, so Marina and Eric, why do you feel that people all of a sudden, and maybe it's not all of a sudden, maybe it's just we're seeing it more now because of social media, and there's so many more platforms to date, as opposed to just going to your religious organization or your friend going, Hey, is Johnny available now, we have these options, but why do you think people are having so many unrealistic expectations? Do we need to go back to the way it was in the fifties where the woman stayed at home? We're talking about traditional values. The man goes and works. Like, where are we lost where people don't know how to treat one another, don't know how to even treat themselves where we have become a sick environment. Very unhealthy. Where are we getting these unrealistic expectations from?

Eric 51:38

That's a good question. I think it's becoming more common and becoming more the norm. For example, as much as I heard about situation ships marina, I asked you what's a situationship exactly? And she described it. She said, oh, it's just someone, a couple people together. They're not in a relationship. They're just waiting for something better to come along. And when I heard that I went and told all my friends, I told my mother, I said, wow, this is crazy. That's what a situationship is. I, I honestly thought a situationship was just, no strings attached. Friends would. Benefits, I was putting it in that category, but I'm realizing that it's just becoming common norm to just be so casual. I said let's, until something better comes along. And I didn't grow up with that. So for me that's very hurtful. I would never do that to somebody unless I said, Hey, this is just casual from the start. And if I'm involved in something like that, I'm not gonna give it my all. They're not gonna see the best side of me. And it's sad that's what's going on. A situationship they to you have something better come along that can, that could hurt someone's deeply hurt someone's self-esteem. Because now you're saying okay, now you're with Johnny. So he's better than me and I'm less than, and that's what I feel like our society is.

Kathryn 52:57

That's interesting that you say that because situation ships I feel like plays a role for a certain amount of time, and it's usually, a lot of people do this in their twenties, but I've seen people even in their fifties and sixties where they do this and it works for them. As long as both parties are on board and really understand what's happening, then hey, like I'll say, do you all of that, but I wanted to go back to something you said, You said that your partner that you broke up with, you loved her and she's the one with the issues. So where I'm going with this is when somebody starts dating someone who, and we all have issues, it's just to what degree do we have these issues and are we in denial? Because if you're in denial, and you don't realize that you have the issues, then that's a whole nother thing. It's a person that says, yes, I have this, and could you help me work on this? I wanna be better because part of a companionship or partnership is working together. But where I'm going with this is you decided to date this woman who probably in the beginning, you didn't realize the extent of her issues. But we have to go back and Ask ourselves what made us attracted to this person? Why are we getting into these relationships? And it's probably not the first time. What do we need to change within ourselves? Maybe have more respect for ourselves or look within. And I think that's part of it because we've become this blame nature society where we're like this person has the problem. Instead of looking in the mirror going, what are things that I can work on myself? To not get into this type of relationship again. And what are the things that I can work on myself to be the best person when that amazing person comes into my world, that I'm ready to take it in wholeheartedly.

Eric 54:38

Absolutely. She had some issues and I saw some red flags and I ignored them. I stuck around hoping and trying for her to get better at certain things. 'cause I was already, she already got me hooked. I was already in love, I was trying to work things out and I wanted her to be better. Interesting that you asked that question. Why was I attracted to her in the first place? Funny enough, I was probably attracted to her because she has some of those issues. Then I couldn't relate to now, it just went beyond what I can handle. And it wasn't really on my terms to end the relationship. I agree with you. I had to look in the mirror and say, what's going on with me? That I'm attracting this, which is why I've been taking time to figure that out.

Marina 55:25

So we established that you actually know what Captain Save a ho means. I know Kathryn, you just learned about this, but and I don't like to use that term, but do you feel like you have some sort of savior complex? Like you wanna save this girl?

Kathryn 55:42

Ooh,

Eric 55:43

am I getting a little red? You a little hot under the collar? I did, but I also loved her. It wasn't I'm gonna try to save her first. It was, I fell in love with you and also let me try to save you. So I don't think it's a complex I have, but it's, what I got involved with, I'm sticking it out with you, so let me try to help you. Definitely not a complex no.

Kathryn 56:07

And that's the thing is you put so much time and energy and to just let go of a relationships. You want to do your due diligence to try and make it work. But there's a reason why we all get into the relationships. It could go back to how we were raised. But going back to the whole dating thing it's really hard to date. And there's many components for that. But we talked about the unrealistic expectations or going to a place and the person doesn't even show. So there's a lot of people that just lack that respect. For others, which ultimately means they don't have respect for themselves, but I really feel like people today. Don't have manners. A lot of people don't have manners. The way I was raised from my mom. She always used to say, do unto others as you would have, do unto yourself. Treat others how you would wanna be treated. So as far as dating is concerned why is it hard? That's one reason why else is because you mentioned the unrealistic expectations, but also I think, and we mentioned the options, but beyond that, I think people today don't even know. Really what they're looking for. Like you said, Eric, they're seeing on social media, okay, I need this, or I need a guy that has a six pack, I need a guy that has two degrees and what have you. I need a guy that was raised in this area. I need a woman that has big boobs. I hear this a lot from my male friends. She needs big boobs. I'm like, really? That's what you're looking for. What about like on the inside And so everybody's looking for something different, but it needs to go back to the values. It's setting the expectations before you even get on the date I think is important. I hear a lot of guys say, I don't wanna talk to you over the phone. I just wanna meet you in person. If you do that, people out there, then you need to make sure that you know what you're asking or else it's gonna lead into those dating disasters.

Marina 57:57

I think maybe you should sing a song.

Kathryn 57:59

So this is a song I thought this would be perfect for this episode because it literally talks about the dating today and basically what happens and why people are so disenchanted with it. So it goes like this. It says, I just went out on a date that turned out not to be a date, just a solo dinner. Where you are increasingly late, I call you and you say you wrote a text that you forgot to send. I just smile and say goodnight and swear I'll never date again. Picking clothes is such a chore. I never know what I should wear. Am I too assertive if I wear that special underwear and it goes on from there, but it's so poignant of today,

Marina 58:59

thank you, Kathryn. That's always a treat.

Kathryn 59:03

All right. I think I need a sip of my tea, my green tea.

Marina 59:08

And I'm gonna have another little sip of my wine, and next time I'm definitely gonna buy a much higher end wine. Thank you, Eric, for sharing your story and dancing through this dating minefield with us. And of course, to our listeners, keep writing us and sharing your own dating through the decades stories. We love hearing from you. Please remember to like us on Facebook, Instagram, and our website. So I'm gonna take a sip of my tea and I'll have another sip of my wine. So keep sipping, keep loving. Keep laughing. Cheers for now. From your love liaisons.