Episode 14: Navigating Menopause, Intimacy and Relationships with Guest - Nurse Tracee

In this episode of Love Liaisons, hosts Kathryn and Marina welcome Tracee, a women's health nurse practitioner specializing in menopause, to discuss the physical and emotional impacts of menopause on relationships. Topics include hormone shifts, intimacy, libido, and the importance of communication and compassion between partners. They explore how men can better support their partners through this life stage, emphasizing emotional safety and mutual understanding. The episode also highlights practical advice on maintaining physical health through exercise and proper nutrition. Kathryn, Marina, and Tracee provide valuable insights to help couples navigate the challenges of menopause together, enhancing both emotional and physical intimacy.

00:00 Welcome to Love Liaisons

00:20 Meet Our Special Guest: Tracee

00:55 What Are You Drinking?

02:05 The Impact of Menopause on Relationships

05:38 Understanding Hormonal Shifts

10:48 Men's Perspective on Menopause

13:04 The Role of Compassion in Relationships

16:23 Libido and Menopause

22:12 Navigating Intimacy During Menopause

23:33 The Importance of Communication

24:46 Emotional Safety and Secure Attachments

25:58 Challenges in New and Long-Term Relationships

27:09 Understanding Physical and Emotional Changes

30:22 The Role of Vulnerability in Intimacy

31:35 Breaking the Stigma Around Women's Health

37:13 The Importance of Physical Fitness

43:15 Concluding Thoughts and Final Advice

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For more information about relationship and mindful life coaching  or speaking engagements contact Marina at marinaismindful@gmail.com

Transcript

Kathryn 0:00

Welcome to Love Liaisons, the ultimate deep dive into the highs and lows and hillarities of modern relationships. I'm Kathryn.

Marina 0:10

And I'm Marina. And we'll be your love liaisons. So pour yourself a nice glass of wine

Kathryn 0:16

or a hot cup of tea,

Marina 0:19

and let's dive in.

Kathryn 0:20

So today we have a wonderful guest with us. Her name is Tracee and she's a women's health practitioner that specializes in menopause. She's been a nurse for 32 years. That's amazing. And she's also in menopause which is part two of what we're going to be talking about today. And she is married and has four children, so welcome Tracy to our Love Liaisons podcast.

Tracee 0:52

Thanks so much. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Kathryn 0:55

But before we get started with our wonderful guest and part two of this topic, Kathryn, what are you drinking today? Yes, I am drinking what's called black cohosh. I hope I pronounced that correctly. And it's supposed to have long-term benefits to help relieve hot flashes, all of that. So I thought that would be perfect today. What about you, Marina? What do you have there?

Marina 1:20

As I talked about last time, I've made. A change from my regular red wine to a lovely organic chardonnay from Sonoma County. And I found out recently that if you are a wine drinker maybe a lighter white wine or an organic white wine might actually be best if you're going through menopause because the red wine could really even trigger some more of the symptoms. Little did I know that this red wine was making me really hot. So I'm going with white for now. And what about you, Tracy? What have you got?

Tracee 1:55

I'm keeping with hydration today since I recently came back from international travel. So I've got some water,

Kathryn 2:01

we need to drink more of it. Why don't we dive in. We're gonna ask Tracy some questions since she's the professional on this. First off. Just dealing with, why so many long-term couples hit breaking points during perimenopause or menopause. Is it hormones? Is it unmet needs? Is it long ignored dynamics that are finally surfacing?

Tracee 2:28

I would say you're probably close to all of it being correct. I think there's a perfect storm that will happen at this season of life for women, and depending on the foundation of that relationship, whether it's a long-term relationship or even a new relationship. I think sometimes those dynamics shift and how connected and how much foundation they have will determine whether they make it through those shifts or not. To be fair, there are some hormonal shifts but there are some dynamics in the relationship too that may rear now their ugly head and are deal breakers for either partner.

Marina 3:04

I'm curious what you've seen because, I've shared a little before, as my experience doing couples therapy over the past 25 years, I remember seeing middle-aged couples where, obviously the woman was in perimenopause or menopause, but it wasn't something that they really talked about and wondering, even to myself when I was a young therapist, what is going on? Like some of these folks are really getting agitated with each other and the wife may say that she doesn't wanna have sex with her husband anymore. And, over the years I've seen this pattern not everybody, once in a while it's enough to be significant. So I'm curious what have you seen as patterns that people go through?

Tracee 3:47

I definitely realize now that in this time of where we are as a society, we're becoming a little bit more open to the conversation. I think some of that has to do with the fact that we have more access to information than we ever did. I'm just a generation away from my mom who told a story one time when she was in the hospital. And after I went to nursing school, I asked her. What did the doctor say did about this particular tumor that you had? She says, I have no idea. And I said, you didn't ask? She said, no, I would never ask the doctor a question. So it struck me even in that moment that we are moving. In a different direction in terms of how much information we desire, how much we consume, how much information we have available to us. Good and bad. So I have seen that tread where people are talking about it a little bit more. It's a good thing. I think there is some benefit to having the conversation because it has been clouded. I think menopause has been clouded for so long as, the change or something that is in some way. At the end of what it is to be a female. And just because your reproductive days are over doesn't mean that you are over. And I think that's a very good spot for women to be in.

Kathryn 4:59

Thank you for sharing that. I get asked a lot, about divorce breaking up whether you're dating, or in a partnership of some sort. Is this something that particularly could be the trigger point for the arguments for the disconnect when things seemed like they were going so well? So do you think menopause or even perimenopause could be like a catalyst for those arguments or divorce because it forces women potentially to reevaluate their lives, boundaries, and even the marriage itself.

Tracee 5:35

I absolutely think that there's some science behind it. You're onto something there. So if you think about menopause and perimenopause specifically as a significant drop in estrogen. Because estrogen, we need as females to help us sustain pregnancies, be fertile, do these things in reproductive time that are very important. There are chemicals, hormones that are there to preserve that time and now that are biological reproductive time is over and that hormone shifts, along with that shift goes with the, I think the adaptability that comes with estrogen, right? The ability to be flexible, the ability to be a little bit more kind, right? Because all of a sudden we're no longer from a moment of scientific, estrogen based season concerned with reproduction, we're concerned with something else. So estrogen may as it drops, trigger a desire to move into something different. Absolutely. And I think the next level of that could be I'm no longer willing to stay in this relationship, or I'm no longer willing to be in a situation where I have to compromise. My kids are older now. I don't have this need to be concerned about reproduction. What do I want the next phase of my life to look at? And I think there's a component there that's very important from a society standpoint. Society really does gear women from a very young age, whether we wanna admit it fully or not, to when are you getting married and when are you having children, right? And that once that's over, there's no other conversation about what's next. So if you have bought into that a bit and are interested in having a partner and having children and rearing those children and getting to the point where they are now independent young adults. Then what? So I think there's a chemical shift, a biological shift, and there might even be a personal shift. And if numbers go up, I think it makes sense.

Marina 7:39

Yeah, that really does make sense because I've known several people that have been in long-term relationships from say five years to 25 years that ended up separating, getting divorced, breaking up all in the perimenopause menopause time. That seems to be like a common factor. And recently I met a man who's been divorced for over 10 years and putting all the pieces together. I come to find out, his wife was in perimenopause when they got divorced. Like, when we meet people, we ask them why did you get divorced? It's just a common thing. And he had a very guy answer. She started being mean. She wasn't nice anymore. He actually used another word, which, starts with a b that I'm not gonna say right now. You wonder, you were married for over 20 years. You have these great kids, like really good kids that are, independent. They're working, they're family oriented. So when we started talking about it, I think some of it may have had to do with perimenopause and menopause and really a lot of men just don't really know much about the female body. When you actually start talking with men now, they don't really know and if they're comfortable enough, they'll ask questions and they'll tell you the locker room talk like what other guys say, and it's really ridiculous.

Kathryn 9:03

I wanna piggyback on what you're saying, and we talked about this that's the thing. Men going to the gym, taking care of themself. Not all men, of course, but you would think that if health is important to them and their wife or partner, is important to them, the relationship is important to them, that they would care about the woman's health. This is woman's health. So when you made the point, like he said that she was mean, we'll just use the word mean. Okay. If that was me, I'd look into it. If my partner all of a sudden was having a lot of anger and just being really mean to me, Let's sit down and have a conversation about this. And this goes back to emotional intelligence maturity. So this could be another reason why potentially women are like, you know what? This worked 15 years ago. We were out having fun going out. But I'm in a different place. I'm older now, more mature, and I'm not gonna put up with this any longer. I've said in many episodes, do you, I'm gonna do me, do you? And I've come to this stage in my life where I just feel like I'm not putting up with anything anymore. You, you don't like it. There's the door. And so we get to a point where we're like, we're just not gonna put up with it. But when you are in a committed companionship, partnership to not say, you know what? I wanna look into my wife's or partner's health. That's part of a relationship. Just if you're like, oh, sweetie, you're getting a little big around the tummy. If you have that closeness, which I would not care if my partner said that, I'd probably laugh and go, you're right. Because that's my personality. So it doesn't offend me. But if you're caring about how she looks. Which is part of it then care about her health.

Tracee 10:47

I'm so glad that you just said that.'cause when I was prepping, my husband was not willing to share much. He's very private, but I did ask him a couple of questions. Hey, I'd love to be able to speak on behalf of some of the men that might be listening here too. What are your thoughts? Could you share? Thoughts that you have on your partner, me, who is also in menopause, right? And I asked him, tell me about what it is that you would want other men to know. And he started talking about I know a couple times for us, my situation before I started on hormones was I was a little bit more moody. And that is a common side effect of drops of hormones in perimenopause and menopause and moodiness is, I think, in our society. When it's a female that has moodiness in our society, we dub that as being emotional. And. It may very well be having some emotion. Okay, your hormones are shifting. It is reasonable and what we would say natural to have those shifts. And he started talking about when you had those shifts before you got on medications. I would just remind myself that you can't control this. This is not you being a B word. This is something that is happening to you as well, and I just imagine that it has to be awful to feel it if I'm experiencing it and I can't help myself because I'm slightly just a smidge more of a feminist than I like to let out. But I said, so you're. You're suggesting I tell men to just be normally compassionate? He goes, I think so. So it seems like a very small order, but there is something to that I don't know that men, and I don't mean to be negative in our society, have a lot of practice with, we are just not reared or nurtured men in our society to understand how to be more compassionate and truthfully. It sounded like from a man's perspective, that's all he really wanted men to know. Just be a little more compassionate. Understand that it's not her fault. Understand that this must be hard for her too, and if it's hard for her, do the things that make her feel better. It will benefit you. It seemed really simple, but it I thought, oh, so just basic, like mediocre compassion would be enough. I did get a chuckle out of it.

Marina 13:03

That's wonderful. Empathy and compassion. The differences like compassion is actually, feeling the pain of the other person and wanting to help in some kind of a way. Sometimes that help may be just listening and being there. I have to say, one of the things I loved about what you said is this externalizing I practice a form of couples therapy that's called integrative Behavioral Couples therapy. And one of the things that. It talks about is it has like a mindfulness and acceptance approach that takes the problem out of the person's personality. So it's not that somebody's overly emotional or underdeveloped or emotionally, but it's that this is a thing and you're taking it out of the person and you're both looking at it like, it's the perimenopause or menopause symptoms. Or the challenge or the problem, or like the challenge and we're gonna work on it together. This isn't you being, a B or him being emotionally unavailable. It's this thing that we're gonna tackle together and look at it. And then maybe you can even call it a name. Oh, here's that perimenopause monster coming again. You could even get a chuckle out of it. Humor, if people can go there, humor could be great. This kind of a situation if you're able to laugh about it oh honey, I know that's not you. It's that menopause monster coming again.

Kathryn 14:29

And that's the whole point, isn't the word partnership. Aren't you supposed to be a team? Go figure. We want you to be compassionate. Even if you own your own business people are not gonna stay there too long, no matter how much money you're giving them. If the workplace environment is not suitable to their basic needs, you have to have some sort of compassion or the relationship is not gonna last. So I totally agree and I think it's hilarious that this is supposed to be asked of when it's something should be a non-negotiable as far as what you're looking for is some sort of compassion and being able. To grow within the relationship.

Tracee 15:09

I would agree. I think that's the biggest piece. To be fair, you know what we're asking for, I think in what most women would most likely benefit from during this time is for someone just to be that soft spot. Just understand that first of all, they're not doing it. To you. I love that Marina pulled it out here, right? No one's doing this to you. It's what's happening. And here's the truth. 100% of women that are biologically women. That live long enough will experience this. We have got to do better with not just teaching our women how to handle it, but the partners that they have in their lives as well. And I don't mean just the romantic partners, that is a huge part, but everyone that's in their house, my poor kids sometimes I'm like, just leave mom alone. But it is a travesty that we're not educating the partners to, just like we talked earlier about we've got all these medications for libido, right? We've got, men have to have this great libido, but if they don't have someone to use the libido with because we're not addressing women's lack of libido in menopause. What are we doing? It's a perfect storm. So as a nurse practitioner, I automatically say, let's talk about testosterone levels. Let's talk about what your libido is too.

Kathryn 16:23

And I'm so glad that you brought that up because I'd like to transition into that because I think talking about sex, libido, and intimacy is key. For all you listeners out there, you know that I sing, so I think I wanna sing a little bit before we ask our first question. And since we're talking about sex, I'm thinking about. Song by Salt and Pepper. This is gonna take us back a bit. I wanna say this was in like 1991. And the song is, let's Talk about Sex. I'm just gonna sing a little bit here. So let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about you and me. Let's talk about all the good things and the bad things that may be, let's talk about sex, This is a hot topic, sex, and I definitely think we need to dive into this more on the Love Liaisons podcast, as far as what I get asked a lot from the listeners and just my friends and family is this whole part about libido and what is actually happening. So let me ask you, Tracy, what actually causes the drop in libido? For some women during menopause or even perimenopause. And why do some women experience the opposite and get a second sexual awakening?

Tracee 17:43

I think the answer to the first part of that question would be, if you think about women as biological beings our difference in the male counterpart is that we reproduce, right? So we have to have, although both sexes. Hormones, both estrogen and testosterone. We have to have a certain amount of hormone balance that will encourage fertility, encourage pregnancy, encourage healthy delivery, all these things healthy postpartum. We have to have those. But again, when we reach that time of life in our late menstrual times early perimenopause and menopause. We drop all our hormones. We talked already about how the estrogen and progesterone will drop because again, we don't need to maintain fertility, pregnancy, that reproductive types of component along with the estrogen and the progesterone. Testosterone drops too with age, just in both partners. But specifically in females, estrogen and progesterone work together. And testosterone rather works together too to keep us actively seeking sex partners as a natural. Way to maintain our species, we have this drive to reproduce. As we get drops in our testosterone, estrogen, and progestin. We just naturally are inclined toward less intercourse. Biologically. So we can get to a level with a testosterone drop. In some cases that is very low. And despite being supportive of reproduction, testosterone also helps with keeping us focused like a cognitive component to testosterone. It helps us keep brain fog at bay alertness. It helps us with muscle mass and keeping us strong and built. These are the things that most people that don't have a good amount of testosterone struggle from. You'll hear women complain of, gosh, I just can't, focus in meetings anymore. I'm at the peak of my career and I just can't focus or I'm exercising. I'm a little heavier than I felt like I lost some muscle mass. Some of them can be related to just the drop in testosterone in general, so that can be a significant thing that needs to be addressed in menopause and perimenopause too, depending on the levels. What's difficult about that is that we, in our Country do not have an FDA approved testosterone available for women at all. Every medicine that you and I as women and men take in the US is tested on men. But it's okay to give you heart medicine. It's okay to give you a cardiac pill that's been tested on all men, but all of a sudden now we're concerned that we shouldn't dose women with testosterone even though we've been giving it to men for years. We also give it to trans women. It's very safe, but to this day it is very difficult to get. I do in my practice, give patients that qualify and meet certain criteria, obviously with a really good assessment. Some medication to help with brain fog, to help with muscle mass, to help with bone loss to help with some of those concerns that they have. A big one is libido. Right now the second part of your question. Yes, testosterone can be helpful in libido. Your question was also about women coming with a second wind. Maybe at this time of life, maybe the opposite might be true for you. You might have low libido, but then now you've hit menopause and all of a sudden you have this completely elevated need to have more intercourse, more sex, more, variety, more experimentation, I think some of that has to do with the coming to your own. Coming to your center. The time when most women enter in our society menopause. They're almost at that point done being caregivers. And I think as a caregiver, you give so much that your needs have to be second. And when some of that responsibility is maybe removed or lessened or in some case shifted, I think you come back to who you were as a woman and maybe that may drive that second win and have that at girls get some.

Kathryn 21:44

Hallelujah. I'm gonna be singing the praises.

Marina 21:47

We talked about our own experiences last time, me personally, I wouldn't say I got a second wind, I feel like I still have active libido or it's been awakened recently and there is this level of mature discernment around it. That's the one thing that I've really seen a change in is that there is much more discernment of who to date, who to pursue. And, if I date somebody, it'll be a romantic sexual relationship as well. While, perhaps when I was younger there was more of like a raw, biological, animalistic kind of a way about it. So there's a bit more of a freedom in that. A lot of this can be psychological and also developmental life stage as well, where, I remember after having a baby, it took me like two years to really come back to normal.

Kathryn 22:42

So what does someone do, and I know you're not a sex therapist but during this time when you're trying, because sex is a very important part of the dynamic, especially when you've been with someone for so long, what are some things that couples can do to keep the intimacy, keep the sex, alive when you have all these inconsistencies?

Tracee 23:04

I think from a menopause standpoint, I would say the crux of the issue for menopausal women is gonna be feeling protected. In that partnership, in that relationship this is something that I felt very awful about at first because I didn't have a ton of sex drive. And you feel guilty, like you feel that you should do things that you don't wanna do because you wanna please your partner, even if you don't have the desire to feel it. What you can do is have those conversations because aside from hormones, I think for women, we just operate on feeling heard. And if we're heard, we feel a connection and I just don't know that we have done enough talking about how important that is I say my husband all the time,, if you talk to me, I will be on my back legs in the air. Let's just do it. And he's really? That's it? No wine and dine I need to be heard. So I think the listening is very important. If you are using the compassion that I talked about earlier, it makes a big difference because I think when you're in this menopause or perimenopause transition, the one thing that I think most women would not want to admit is that they don't know what's going on either. They don't know why the words just came outta their mouth the way that they did. They don't understand that they liked you yesterday and today you're a pain in their buns. They don't understand it either, and women don't feel comfortable in that space. If you can help them feel comfortable by giving them the forum or the space to have those conversations and be that soft spot for them. I think that goes a long way to opening up the doors for intimacy. And intimacy almost always leads to the other stuff.

Marina 24:46

And I would say, what you're talking about of being heard also really leads to emotional safety. For myself as I got older, this feeling of being safe and secure in a secure attachment kind of a way is really important. And I think a lot of men don't really understand or people, men and women, that there's actually two competing human needs. We have a need as people, and I think women, especially for security, but we also have a need for excitement. You know how much you need of both may shift as you get older. And good sex is really something that comes from a secure attachment. I think the older that you get, perhaps, when you're younger, the excitement can really spark the fire. But that secure attachment, feeling comfortable with somebody feeling like you're held and they've got you is I think something that more people really need to know that could be a pathway to better sex.

Kathryn 25:50

And I'm gonna add on the big piece here is communication. I think it all boils down to communication. So there's two parts. What do you do if you're just starting to date someone and you're in perimenopause and menopause. The other is, if you are already in a long-term relationship, meaning it's five years or more, So as far as that is concerned, those are two parts as to being able to feel comfortable communicating, Hey, I want to be intimate with you, but I think it's gonna need to look different. What are some things we can do? Because I don't wanna say that the women don't have needs. Of course, we're all different. I think the need is still there, but. Maybe the penetration is looking different because we talked about this in part one, the vaginal dryness. You mentioned the compassion, all this I mentioned communication, feeling, safe and secure. Marina just brought up, but I think if they can talk about what are some other things that we can do. That's helpful, but what does this look like as far as people who are just meeting someone within the first couple months or what have you, and sex is now on the table and they're in perimenopause. In menopause? What are some things that women can do and that men can do to be more understanding that this may look different than in your twenties?

Tracee 27:09

I think you're definitely out of that biologic hormone driven scenario in your twenties, where the spark was really the forefront of doing something intimate. It was the feeling, the emotion, that very hormone driven type of scenario. Now, the hormones are. Maybe more subtle and it's more of the connection, right? So things that I think people can do, I think first of all from a female standpoint, having some understanding of what's going on with your body helps having some control bring coming back to center a little bit to understand what you're going through because I don't think you can be, even in a new relationship available to your partner if you are not fully where you need to be. So I think from a emotional and physical standpoint, there needs to be a little bit of give to yourself some if you need to see someone because you realize your hormones are shifting and you need to maybe use medications. Maybe it's diet, Put yourself in a position if you are looking to begin a relationship that is. Hopefully gonna turn to a physical relationship. Put yourself in a good physical space, do the things that will help you feel good about yourself. When I feel good about myself, it doesn't matter what size I am, it doesn't matter what clothes I wear, it's up here. When I feel good about myself, I feel sexy as hell, and that is important for women. The other thing you did mention, the genital urinary symptoms, those can be treated and make intercourse and physical, emotional intimacy much easier on your body, but I really do think it has to do with that emotional connection with yourself because I think when you have a full self, you pour out physically.

Kathryn 28:52

I have a lot of male friends and they'll just say, my wife doesn't wanna have sex with me anymore. I have put on a little weight, so is she, but it's definitely more than that. And it goes back to communication. But for partners who feel rejected sexually what do you recommend so they don't feel like this is turning into, resentment or emotional withdrawal.

Tracee 29:13

I think there's a healthy amount of conversation that has to happen from both your medical provider and perhaps even like a therapist too, because again, this is a life transition not just for the woman. She didn't choose it. She's just biologically the person that is in this space, and if that's the person you wanna be with, and you know that's not something that she is doing to you. I love when Marina said it's this thing, it is here that we both have to deal with. Just like we deal with if a bill came in that we didn't expect, we'd have to come together, pool our resources and figure out how to make it work. I do think that's critical to making this work I know that sometimes men can feel ignored. In some cases, they can somehow even feel down, and I think sometimes they can even feel like they're not wanted anymore. And for men, that is a big deal. And this connection has to be bigger if you want it to work, and you want it to be successful, especially when it's being challenged with menopause, It has to be addressed in a different way. Therapy I think is great just to even have the conversation, right? Not a lot of men are good at going to therapy, but boy maybe you're tie it to sex. Maybe they will. But it makes a difference. I think it comes back almost every time to that, the emotional connection, because even though men in our society tend to be extremely physical and geared toward hormonal, sexual desires, it's not the only way to be intimate with a woman.

Marina 30:39

Absolutely. I think it's important for men to get comfortable talking about their bodies, talking about health and talking about their bodies. One of my favorite meditation teachers who passed away recently, talked about a while ago, how, women are comfortable talking about their bodies. Here we are on a podcast talking about, vaginal dryness, estrogen, Men Don't really talk about their bodies. They just die. That's what he said. And sadly, that is sometimes true, but when you're in a relationship, when you're in a heterosexual marriage or heterosexual relationship. Your partner needs to get comfortable hearing and talking about it. And I found out that a lot of men just don't really even know, what women go through. They don't even know what an annual gynecological exam looks like. They don't really even know. And I explain it to them, they're like, what? They're all up in there.

Tracee 31:35

We've been asked as women to hide those things, and I come at this with a little bit of my own feminist sort of thoughts. We have been asked to be shamed by our cycles. Our shame is in our reproduction in some cases. Our changes are not welcomed, There are lots of religions that say, During your cycle, you are not. Clean. Yeah. This cycle brought you here. This cycle filled this earth. I would hide my tampons on the way to the bathroom.'cause God forbid someone saw a sanitary pad or a tampon. Would you hide a Kleenex if you had a runny nose? No, because you're gonna use it to take care of your runny nose. Yeah. It's a biological response to having a cold. You have a biological response in a cycle with a female body. Why do you hide that? So that shame has to go. I'm glad that finally, for the first time for women, we are finally talking more about that going away. My hope is and maybe this is the natural next step, is that men will follow along I say to my husband, the more you talk, the more it benefits you. And what are the benefits? He's I'm listening. Go on. The more there's that, maybe they'll follow suit and again, if that's the way we have to frame the conversation, so be it if they could evolve to that thinking, I really do believe that is the key to making things easier. It opens up that door a little bit.

Kathryn 33:02

Definitely. And I'm hearing some key points, which we'll wrap this all together in the end, but for men and women alike that are thinking, what can we do in this timeframe, whether it's the man or the woman not wanting or wanting more sexual intercourse or intimacy. And by the way, usually if there's intimacy. That is gonna lead to the sexual desire. Go figure. And when I say intimacy not to say that people don't know what the definition of intimacy is, but I just wanna be clear here, at least what I feel intimacy is it could just be, leaving a little note saying, you look so cute this morning, asleep. Or you even, are holding their hand, for a date and going back and having dates with your partner. We get so stuck in our routine with the kids, and this one has piano and this one's throwing a tantrum and just forget it. I just wanna take a shower and go to bed. But that's when the men, so to speak, could come in and say, you know what? I think you look pretty hot I think we could do something with that let's get these kids to bed quickly. She's probably gonna laugh and just bring it back to. Why are you together? Especially since Marina and I live in California, I know you live in New York. But in California it's very I have to have everything now, and I have this huge list of my needs that need to get met. For those that yearn for a relationship, whatever that looks like in today's society, you have to ask yourself, what does this mean? And how do I get my needs met? This goes back to, like you said, being heard, communication, intimacy, hugging, kissing each other. It may start in the morning and it goes from there.

Marina 34:47

I wanna add, because I've studied intimacy from a psychological behavioral perspective, a while ago, and when you think about intimacy it's not just physical intimacy, it's your level of comfort being vulnerable with another person without the fear of them punishing you and that I think is very meaningful for this. For this time, for perimenopause and menopause, there is a vulnerability sharing with your partner saying, you know what? I might need a little help right now. Or, I like to use coconut oil for moisturizer, lubricant. That's my go-to. Hey, hold on, I let me get my coconut oil over here. And we could play with that, but there's a level of vulnerability saying, you know what I. I'm just not like I was when I was 20 or 30. I need a little help from you. And that when you're able to be vulnerable and you're not punished for it but you're made to feel secure, like they understand then that leads to a much more intimate relationship that could be emotionally and physically intimate.

Kathryn 35:52

I think even on social media because I love the video and it's so representative of me. There was this couple, and the woman is in the kitchen and she's chopping up vegetables and there's music playing in the background. I don't know, probably a song from Dirty Dancing or something. And he comes in and he sees her cooking and he comes in and he turns her around and he starts dancing with her. And he like even puts her legs, wraps them around him. And I thought, when is the last time that somebody did that? It's something as simple as that. Just acknowledge them and that is huge. And she could say, oh my gosh, I'm making dinner. What are you doing? But then it's her job to reciprocate and not say something like that and give him those five minutes of just dancing in the kitchen before you gotta put the dinner on the table for the family. And those little things really do matter. Take the time you already spent all those years or all those months together, you're gonna throw it all away because of what?

Marina 36:50

Wow. When I was like thirties that dancing in the kitchen would lead to sex on the counter. And now it's like, oh, okay, let's go to the bed. It's more comfortable, my back hurts over here and my leg hurts over there.

Tracee 37:04

We just don't, we aren't nearly as agile as we used to be. So you may have to change things up just a little bit, maybe. Have a few minutes in the kitchen and then go someplace more comfortable.

Kathryn 37:13

So that, and that's the thing with being in perimenopause, menopause, they talk about a lot. You hear about resistance training and working your muscles, and I'm still confused. Do I take whey protein? Do I take creatine? What do I do here to add to my overnight oats or whatever I'm doing? Because, I don't wanna be that person. And I'll be honest, I am not an overly. Athletic person. I try to go to the gym. I have my resistance bands and right now my goal is just to protect my bones, I don't want to fall and end up in a nursing home. I wanna try to not have that happen and just protect myself the best that I can. So it is, you're talking about not being agile. I'm painting the picture of a couple, trying to have sex on the countertop and then they fall the next day. They're like in the emergency room, they got a back brace and. Were you in a car accident? And they're like, we wanna have that kind of sex. Wow.

Tracee 38:09

We'll have what she's having. Oh, it's so hard. It's tough from a physical standpoint when you're looking at muscle mass and strength, and again, avoiding some of those things that down the road could be an issue with low estrogen. Definitely menopausal and perimenopausal patients suffer with that. Estrogen loss, bringing down bone mass and actually working toward osteopenia and osteoporosis. If we're not replacing some of that because estrogen helps us build bone we are gonna be at risk. I tell my patients to exercise now I'm 55, so if I was exercising, now, I'm exercising, not for today, but for 65. I am, the work I'm doing today, the medications, the sleep, the wellness things that I'm putting in my life now are gonna help me later. In terms of actual weight training. Very important in menopause and perimenopause, because the. Estrogen, depletes muscle mass. So you have to bring it back at a different level. Resistance training, heavier weights. There's an excellent author. Her name is Dr. Stacy Smith, who writes a book next Level and she talks about lifting heavy stuff. She doesn't use the word stuff, uses a four letter sh word, but it's abbreviated LHS I tell myself every time I'm thinking about going to the gym, I need to think about lifting heavy stuff because it's gonna build muscles, upper, lower, all those things that are gonna be depleted because I no longer have the estrogen to help build bone mass lifting resistance training, walking with weights weighted vest, walking and lifting heavier. Help build bone mass, which are gonna keep you from down the road, having a fracture that could be fatal.

Kathryn 39:54

I have a question though, because. I keep hearing from different people. I'm five, six and a half. I weigh 140 pounds around there. And I was told by one of my friends who used to be in weight training long ago, she said, Kathryn, no. She says, you just need three or four pounds. You just wanna build toning your muscles, but what I'm hearing you say is you need the heavier weight. So what weight would that be depending upon what your structure is.

Tracee 40:20

It really does depend on your structure. That's why I just say heavy in general, because it would depend on how big you are, how much, how flexible. I am not a weight trainer, but I have collaborations with weight trainers locally that I use, and they can do a full assessment, depending on weight and size and your abilities and joint issues and medical conditions and medications, that's why the general term is just lift heavy. There was a research study that came out, it was comparing heavy weights, like how much, what is a heavy weight,? Because we say heavy, not because we're trying to be vague, but I think we're trying to say that it has to be catered to the specific person. But there was a research study that came out, I believe it was through the American Journal of Medicine that talked about what type of heavy weights. What they're looking for is weight based on your weight, your size, your ability, your medications, your health history that actually causes you to feel the resistance and also start you to sweat. So that's the key right there. Heavy enough to make you feel a little bit of the burn and also start to put you in a zone of activity. That is really the key. You're building that muscle, you're building the mass in your skeletal system that will help you 10 years from now. Because you know what? We're all gonna retire in our sixties and if we're not doing the work in our fifties to do the trips that we wanna take or have put off or do all the things that we've been putting off while we're raising our kids, we're gonna not be able to physically do it in our sixties if we're not careful now. So I try to focus on where you are for the next 10 years and maybe when I'm 65, we'll be chatting about this and I'll say, now I'm doing the stuff that I need to plan for 75. I would say it depends on the person very much, but specifically menopausal women. We know that estrogen is bone protective, muscle protective. It's cardioprotective. And we're learning now that estrogen is also helpful in protection against dementia. That's new, we need to do the things now to keep us outta those situations later. So how that looks for you may be very specific, but yes, lifting heavy is helpful. 100% for the skeletal system..

Marina 42:22

So let's get it girls. Starting small and working up to see what works for you and speaking with a personal trainer, perhaps a female personal trainer

Tracee 42:32

who's in menopause even.

Marina 42:34

Yeah, exactly. That could help. Exactly.

Kathryn 42:36

That's our next calling and we can call it, let's

Marina 42:38

get physical.

Kathryn 42:41

We can do this and start our own love liaisons. I think it's a huge thing and California is great for it because people are on their bikes, people are running, and let's just get all the women in perimenopause and menopause together. And let's get physical.

Marina 42:57

I used to teach fitness classes for the park district in Champaign Urbana, Illinois, where I went to grad school at the University of Illinois. And I did a class called Sit and Be Fit. It was actually for elderly or, partially disabled folks. And then I did a regular jumping aerobics class as well.

Kathryn 43:15

We learned a lot in this episode and we really appreciate you coming on with us tracy. Some things that, resonate with me really is that this is not a quick fix, this is gonna take some time to research to find out. What is right for you mentally, emotionally, and physically. Also being heard is important in a relationship. And it comes back to emotional connections. Communication. And being comfortable about talking, about their bodies. Talking about, how is this gonna look different, or sex or whatever it may be. Being more intimate, which may lead to sexual activity and really focusing on. Where you want to be in 10 years.

Tracee 44:01

I think it's a lot it is a big piece if you think about a third of a woman's life, right? It is bigger than we give it credit for. And although it's nuanced in some conversations, like you said, it is a season of life that we have literally up until maybe this generation completely ignored, it's time to stop ignoring it. It's affecting not just women, but everyone who interacts With women. It's a societal issue, and I'm so glad now finally that we're having these conversations. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to be here, to have these conversations with you guys in this forum as well. Every time we talk about it, that helps someone. And to me that matters. It is very important and should never be filled with shame or hidden I think we're doing the right thing.

Marina 44:45

thank you so much, Tracy, for sharing all of your experience and wisdom, and thank you everybody for tuning in to love liaisons. Don't forget to like us on Facebook at Love Liaisons and on Instagram. And we're on TikTok now as well. Please write in, tell us what you think about your experiences and we'll see you next time. Okay I'm gonna take a sip of my tea and my love liaisons mug, and I'll have another sip of my Chardonnay. So keep sipping, keep loving, keep laughing. Cheers for now. From your love liaisons.