1. Make Your Mark Live: Educational Excellence at Primary School

To launch Series Two, join us on stage at the Music Mark Conference (recorded live in November 2025). 

In this live recording, the Music Mark podcast team are joined by Rachel Hawker, Director of Education at Rocksteady Music School, David Rees, Chief Executive of Merton Music Foundation, Bridget Rennie, Executive Director at Mahogony Opera and Caro C from Delia Derbyshire Day to discuss educational excellence at primary school, the transformative impact of music at this level and how they get the best out of the young people they work with.

Find full transcripts, guest bios, as well as show notes, links and resources mentioned in episodes at https://www.musicmark.org.uk/podcast. 

Transcript

* PLEASE NOTE * 

Due to the live nature of this recording, this transcript is not generated in the usual way our podcast is. For this reason, there may be more mistakes, mistaken words or errors in the below transcript. We hope to re-edit this transcript at a latter date, but wanted to ensure some form of transcript is available on publication.

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Transcript:

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:13:11
Unknown
This is our first. Make your mark. Notes and music Education live podcast recording.

00:00:13:13 - 00:00:38:17
Unknown
We've rounded up some fantastic guest speakers today to discuss engaging primary pupils with ambitious music making. From opera to electronic music making and plenty in between. There's lots to learn from their innovative project. Thank you. Amy. And thank you, Normans, for a little reveal that you may have shortly. Without further ado, I'd like to go down the line and introduce our podcast guests.

00:00:38:19 - 00:01:03:17
Unknown
Let's start off here. Okay. Hello. I'm David, I'm the chief executive of Merton Music Foundation. We're an independent charity music service in southwest London, and we're in the third year of delivering a program called Mini Musicians, which is something we set up in response to local needs. Schools were telling us about people's protection in the early years of the school coming in with low levels of school readiness, and we have in our borough really inequity of access to transfer learning between the east and the west of the borough.

00:01:03:19 - 00:01:30:16
Unknown
So many musicians attempted to address that through teaching in ten primary and special schools, full day of specialist provision in early years, and Key Stage one. And we centered it around the brand new scheme of learning that we wrote, based on the Sounds of Intent framework. And there were themes of risk, small steps, learning. And we were awfully often delivering in half class groups, with some dedicated 1 to 1 catch up and, intervention time as part of the timetable.

00:01:30:18 - 00:01:50:19
Unknown
Sorry, I felt really rude doing that, but we did warn you. I'm moving on. I'm sure we'll hear more in a moment. Anyway, I can't wait to hear more. Hi. My name is Rachel Walker. I'm the director of education at Rocksteady Music School. I've been with Rocksteady for about ten years now. I think we were teaching about 1000 children a week when I first joined it.

00:01:50:19 - 00:02:09:23
Unknown
We're now teaching over 100,000, primary school children a week. How to play an instrument in a band. I've also worked for, West Sussex Music Service for a very long time before coming to Rocksteady. So I've got a real passion for making music as engaging as possible. I've spent my kind of career dedicated to that.

00:02:10:00 - 00:02:26:23
Unknown
At Rocksteady, it's been all about progressive and inclusive education that gets kids excited about making music in a slightly different way. So yeah, I'm just really excited to to talk about that today. And I think I'm under a minute. So I don't need the instrument. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. You're you're well under a minute. That's not fair.

00:02:27:00 - 00:02:56:20
Unknown
You're depriving us of the joy of another novelty. So anyway, so anyway, I got done. Okay. Hi, I'm Kara Kara sea. I'm an electronic music artist, and I. I'm the founder and instigator and director of Delia Derbyshire Day. We're a small electronic music charity based in Manchester. And. Really? Yeah. Guiding Light. Our impact is all about elevating the legacy of Data Derbyshire as a catalyst for empowerment now.

00:02:56:20 - 00:03:23:07
Unknown
So empowerment in music, empowerment, technology, empowerment and creativity and heritage. So for us, it's about helping as many children as possible to get to arrive in high school with competence and confidence in electronic music. And with just basically today I'm talking about our new report, which is an electronic music education needs analysis that we've just completed, which was in consultation with teachers and students.

00:03:23:07 - 00:04:03:10
Unknown
So hopefully we'll unpack that a bit. Wow. With 10s to spare. Hi, I'm Bridget Ranney, I'm executive director of Mahogany Opera. We are a leading commissioner and producer of new new music theater and opera. And one of our main programs is called Snappy Operas, which is a participatory program of art making in primary schools. So we've been running that since 2016, in schools across the country and recently internationally as well, working often with music hubs, in England, since the over the last nine years, we've delivered, I think, around about 150 projects working with 5000 children.

00:04:03:12 - 00:04:23:14
Unknown
And we've commissioned 15 composer writer teams to go into schools and create these ten minute, snappy operas, which are, then stage and performed by young people. The beauty of snappy operas is it's really fun, accessible way to introduce opera and new music to primary school children. And each year, each piece is a groups of characters.

00:04:23:14 - 00:04:43:17
Unknown
There's no solos or divas, there's just groups of kids being bits or sausages or nets. You'll hear more in a minute. So it's on your. Thank you everyone. It is a really hard task for the pair of us to cut you off, because you're all saying such fantastic stuff. But of course, across the conference, we're talking about all things ambition and quality.

00:04:43:22 - 00:05:06:07
Unknown
So let's dive straight in. We'd like to know from each of you what does quality in music education mean to you? So, Rachel, do you fancy kicking us off? Yeah. It's been, really interesting to reflect on that over the past couple of days. And there's been lots of discussion about, you know, the quality of the experience versus the quality of the outcome and actually both being so important.

00:05:06:07 - 00:05:28:23
Unknown
And I think where I've landed is if you focus on the quality of the experience, the quality of the outcome will follow. But but what does that mean? What does a quality experience look like? And I think the key word for me is engagement. You could teach the most technically perfect music lesson. But if the kids are not walking away excited about what they've just learned has a truly engaging experience happened for them.

00:05:28:23 - 00:05:53:18
Unknown
So I think one of the things we talk about a lot, a rock star, is this concept of inspire first, teach second. And that's not to devalue the teaching element in any way. It's just to put the right emphasis on the inspiration aspect. If kids are leaving the room really inspired and truly engaged, then you're more likely to have embedded the learning and you're more likely to to have excited them about a kind of music, field life.

00:05:53:18 - 00:06:14:12
Unknown
So I think that's been really key. The other two central pillars that we talk a lot about in our lessons are the concept of fun and progress. And I've spoken a lot about this with our teachers. We've got over 600 teachers across the country now. So it's, I've repeated myself a few times on this, but, you know, if a child's not having fun, they're not going to make as much progress.

00:06:14:12 - 00:06:34:11
Unknown
I genuinely believe that. But if they're not making progress and they're not being, you know, challenged enough, then eventually the fun stops are the two absolutely have to co-exist. For kind of meaningful musical experiences to happen. And, you know, we teach kids how to play in a rock band, right? So we've sort of been lucky that the fun is there.

00:06:34:11 - 00:06:53:07
Unknown
You're in a band. Yeah. You're getting to to play music with you, with your friends and, and colleagues in your class. So we've had to work on the progress side and making sure that Rock steady looks the same in, Plymouth as it does in Newcastle. And I think for me, the commitment to quality is so important. And it's about knowing what you don't know.

00:06:53:07 - 00:07:10:08
Unknown
It's about going out and talking to critics, to people who, you know, talking to about what you still could do better as an organization and the parents and the kids and kind of constantly committed to that continuous improvement cycle. And that's where we've invested a lot of our time over the years. And I sort of see that as my responsibility.

00:07:10:08 - 00:07:36:07
Unknown
I sit on the board of directors for Rocksteady, and I see my my role specifically as representing the experience of the child, but also with the accountability of setting up those teachers with the right sets of tools to deliver that quality experience. So, yeah, I've gone on a bit of a ramble there, but I think ultimately, if I circle back to what I think quality is, I think it's about the quality of the engagement that you're creating with the children.

00:07:36:12 - 00:07:54:21
Unknown
Are they walking out of the lesson inspired and wanting to come back and learn more about music? Because that's when you know you're on to a winner? Absolutely. Thank you. I mean, I'm sure all of us out here can remember that at least one inspirational son, engaging teacher that's made all that difference along the journey, does that resonate for anyone else on the panel?

00:07:54:21 - 00:08:13:17
Unknown
Does anyone else have any different ideas of what quality means to them? Jump in. Yeah. I mean, what? Rachel said really resonates with me. And obviously a lot of those buzzwords that we use around quality of experience and quality of engagement. But I'd like to add a third, which is quality of expression, which is something we talk a lot about with our snappy program.

00:08:13:17 - 00:08:40:02
Unknown
So it's not about the quality of the final performance as such, but about how we're enabling young people to express themselves, use their natural singing voices. But also obviously with opera you have all the other artforms and movement, acting, making and all of those being opportunities. So sort of real creative expression and that being the focus rather than the kind of product at the end, if that makes sense.

00:08:40:04 - 00:09:02:18
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. It's interesting here, we've got people who are dealing with genres across the spectrum and hearing your answers. I'm just wondering if you think that quality looks different for different genres, or if there should be kind of a holistic response to music and how it should be judged. And the music over time that you're getting from young people and the quality of education.

00:09:02:20 - 00:09:28:02
Unknown
Carr. Yeah, I suppose I can't help it then. It's not a cop out, but it is a mixed model, isn't it? And I think a lot of what you're saying is resonating and I'm trying to think in terms of our perspective and approach. So a lot of our we teach a lot composition, which from the needs analysis report, a lot of teachers struggle with, to try and make that work in a primary level at the same time as the kids really don't struggle at all.

00:09:28:04 - 00:09:50:03
Unknown
You just if we want to. We've shown them the basics of how to start to record and create their own samples, create their own beats, get the building blocks. I think we kind of trust them to decide the quality because, most kids are hearing electronic music all around them anyway in some form or other, but they're also hearing music.

00:09:50:03 - 00:10:25:05
Unknown
I think especially film movies. You've got a lot of classical music, for example. So in that sense, I think we trust them to tell us whether they think it's on their terms, whether it's quality. And also in terms of that. Yeah, definitely the play. And I think, you know, what do we want them to come out with at the end of primary school, which is why the only kind of baselines we can harden the audio open, we can come up with, that confidence and competence, because if they are arriving at high school already feeling confident enough to record themselves, for example, they can go on and hopefully feel confident to to

00:10:25:05 - 00:10:49:08
Unknown
explore any genres. That's really interesting. I mean, we've got we've got, rock opera and kind of everything jazz focus here. Do you feel like people come in with an idea of a certain level, a certain expectation of what quality is with those genres? I think that going too far down the drama route is probably, it's a bit of a red herring.

00:10:49:08 - 00:11:04:09
Unknown
So with the mini musicians program, we we were looking at the start of the school journey. When I think about quality in primary, I think about a culture of music making across the school. And I think it's really important that that does start right from from the early years, from, from the first, first point of access that children have.

00:11:04:11 - 00:11:23:16
Unknown
So, so in the program that we put together, we set out principles or values that we like from sound first is really important for us. We did interrogate, musical notation and we didn't we did kind of explore different genres and different, different things. But it all started from sound for the young people. And that was, that was a really important part of the project.

00:11:23:21 - 00:11:43:21
Unknown
We also had this concept of maximizing value, and this was a really interesting thing that came out of the musician program. And we've got this massive research study. We've done 300 children, over a thousand assessments, 20 to 30 minute individual, individual assessments that we filmed. And part of the maximizing value, principle was that we, we used a fixed dough approach.

00:11:43:23 - 00:12:04:22
Unknown
So some of the songs the children learned, they they always learned in the same key. And what we found in the responses when they were prompted is that they start singing back in that key in the tone. So there's so much, so much that they can pick up at such a young age that we don't necessarily, we didn't necessarily realize that that's that potential is assessed starting early, I think is really important.

00:12:04:22 - 00:12:20:01
Unknown
And then as that runs through the school, after one, two, three years, some of those children have come out and you've got the next group and the next group, and that's where that culture and that quality in the school is built. The last, the last thing I just want to touch on that is it's a, it's a value of maths.

00:12:20:01 - 00:12:40:19
Unknown
But it was also a principle of the project that many musicians project joy and music making. And I think when we're working with young people, when we work with children, when we teach the music, you know, we can be thinking, oh, they need to learn this genre or they need to learn that theory or that note. But actually, do they experience a moment of joy that ignites them with with music?

00:12:40:19 - 00:12:59:01
Unknown
Because that's what's going to then lead to progression later on. And this these next steps. There's a lot of nodding heads there. It's not the same agreement. It's that kind of the first principle for for everyone here. I think that's it, isn't it? It's about getting the kids hands on, making music, learning that it's a safe space to do so, and then you can build the technique from there.

00:12:59:01 - 00:13:20:19
Unknown
If that first experience is a little bit scary or failing, feels like an option. You could run the risk of losing a child to engagement really early on. So I think getting them in hands on enjoying music making and a building on the on the technical aspects afterwards, I think is really, really important. Thank you. Okay. So I enjoy it's joy and imagination as well, isn't it?

00:13:20:19 - 00:13:39:18
Unknown
Because, you know, in terms of the paradigm we're all operating in, joy is a radical act and so is imagination. So I think and ultimately we only, like you said, we only get up in the morning and do this job because of the magic music. So you've already touched on some of this already, some fantastic stuff.

00:13:39:20 - 00:14:03:01
Unknown
With all that in mind, what do you think needs a refresh? Are there any ways we might think about perhaps redefining quality in music education? Bridget, do you want to start off? Sorry, I think the question you didn't warn me about that one. I mean, we we we come in with a program that is a majority led by specialists.

00:14:03:01 - 00:14:21:19
Unknown
So artists coming in to school to lead, snapping up the workshops. But a big part of that is snapping up for a project in a school is also kept with the teachers, and trying to build a legacy so that when we go there is that increased confidence in using creativity in the classroom, with our young people.

00:14:21:21 - 00:14:43:18
Unknown
I mean, I think and I think this obviously this, I think is a, a question about to come up about sort of specialist versus non-specialist. I don't anticipate that too much. But I think that that balance is sort of you need to you need both. I think, and I think teachers are under so much pressure now, and I think that just creating the space in the classroom, yeah, I don't have all the answers to this.

00:14:43:18 - 00:15:14:08
Unknown
And I know there's a curriculum review sort of ongoing, but it does feel like anything that could be done to just give teachers more support, resources, training to enable them to kind of enable music making and confident creativity in their classrooms. That to me, that's an area that maybe could benefit from refreshing. And I think it's just absolutely about that holistic approach and, and making an inclusive space where people and I think we're all we're all doing this kind of work in different genres too.

00:15:14:13 - 00:15:35:19
Unknown
So for people to be able to make music, yeah, I think that there's a real opportunity and actors a lot. There's a lot of, support out there for for what to teach, but there's not a lot of support for non-specialists on how to teach music in a really engaging way. And that's where I think there's a real opportunity for specialists to come in and deliver.

00:15:35:21 - 00:15:57:03
Unknown
But equally to try and upskill and get that culture of music kind of running through the entire school. That's where you see, you know, that those really magic moments is where the whole school is excited, about it. I mean, we get to see it in, in rock rocksteady concerts and, you know, every single concert, you'll see one kid who brings her mum's leather jacket and it's like, massive for them.

00:15:57:05 - 00:16:16:00
Unknown
And then they bring their dad's aviators and they're like, four years old, getting off and playing a bass guitar, looking like Suzi Quatro. But but really, the the magic moment is the whole school getting excited about that and the whole school getting excited about music and and actually it not just being about that specific genre of music, it's just, hey, music's pretty cool.

00:16:16:00 - 00:16:36:21
Unknown
Making music is looking a little bit more accessible to me. So, I think that's the really exciting part of all of this. And I think, you know, it's it's really hard to define something like quality, but I think actually the definition should be a continuous improvement cycle, you know, what are you constantly doing? What are you learning from what where are your mistakes?

00:16:36:21 - 00:16:56:13
Unknown
Get into the gnarly stuff. What what's going wrong? I spend most of my, time now talking about all the things that Rocksteady are doing wrong. Because ultimately that's the commitment to trying to do better and listening to where we could improve and and support our teachers better to to continue to deliver an an amazing experience for the kids.

00:16:56:15 - 00:17:18:20
Unknown
And I think that commitment to quality is about just that, you know, you never know everything. And, and learning from, from from other, other, you know, genres, other delivery models I think is really is really important. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. It's it's interesting to hear you say that regardless of the genre, like if the music making is engaging, it's having the outcome that you want is having that impact.

00:17:19:00 - 00:17:39:11
Unknown
And I wonder, so you co-wrote with Delia Derbyshire Day. Obviously you're going in with electronic music making one would think quite different from running a rock band, but are you seeing similar things? I think we're seeing a mismatch between, the, the music that children are listening to and the music they're being taught, which I think is quite accepted now.

00:17:39:11 - 00:18:00:18
Unknown
And it's no one's fault apart from the curriculum wise, obviously, that nobody can no one person can change that. So refraction involves quite a big systemic stuff for us. That's more my opinion really. Yeah. But I think it is that thing of how do you keep it culturally relevant? How do you keep updating this big beast of the curriculum?

00:18:00:18 - 00:18:21:06
Unknown
How do you keep it inclusive? How do you keep it representative? How do you keep it diverse? How do you keep it alive, really, when teachers and everyone is struggling to to just make the ends meet in the classroom kind of thing. So for example, with the trauma informed approach, then, you know, we I meant that we had some extra training last week from thrive and saying to them, or, you know, it's kind of shame that we only did paint.

00:18:21:06 - 00:18:40:20
Unknown
And they said, no, actually, you're giving every child a complete refresh. You're giving every teacher a complete refresh because that you don't know all about these children and what the limitations vary. The perceived or real for them. You're coming in and knowing they've all got the potential gives them that opportunity. I suppose this is going to a really key point.

00:18:40:20 - 00:19:09:20
Unknown
And to our next question, which is that trauma informed response. Going back to your points about joy and the importance of joy in music, particularly at primary, and the curriculum as well, looking at whether you need a more holistic approach to music or that should be this focus, this focus at getting better musicians, etcetera, etcetera. At primary school, can you have a do you need a holistic approach or a progressive approach, percussion approach.

00:19:09:20 - 00:19:31:00
Unknown
Sorry. Or can you have both? And I'm going to start off, with Bridget Van or the big question starting with you. Sorry. I mean, I think for me, in our approach, it's nappies. Is it the holistic approach comes first. You know, you want to create a safe, inclusive space where everyone feels able to participate.

00:19:31:02 - 00:19:56:01
Unknown
And, you know, there's no it's exactly what Rachel has already said. There's no progression without inclusion. And, and and that inclusion comes from a holistic approach. I think you know, the music has to be fun and inclusive. And then and then, you know, progress might happen. But I think, yeah, progress isn't a word that we use particularly I don't think it's hugely useful in, in a primary setting.

00:19:56:01 - 00:20:24:03
Unknown
Maybe that's a bit of a controversial thing to say, but but I think we are actually absolutely. Our approach is play based. It's about fun and joy, like at the risk of repeating ourselves. So that's that's my take on that question, raising David. Yeah. One is dependent on the other. If you if you teach the whole child, if you teach music to that child in a, in that kind of spiraling building, a continuous way, then you get that's when you're going to get real, meaningful progress.

00:20:24:03 - 00:20:44:22
Unknown
You're not going to get prolong progress, without that. But but what's really important, what we learned from many musicians program is, is starting that as early as possible in a really considered and planned out way. So so the the scheme of learning that we wrote, like I said, was built on the sounds of intent. And we knew that for the cohort that we were starting in year one, it was a five term project.

00:20:44:22 - 00:21:05:08
Unknown
The cohort was starting year one. We knew that we wanted to learn the melodica in year two. So with that ambition in mind, we started with activities to scaffold towards that. So we started on the chamber's. We used chime bars with color coding. We moved on to glockenspiel as color coded and then and then not color coded, just, you know, normal.

00:21:05:10 - 00:21:25:03
Unknown
And then from the glockenspiel as they get to you see, they progress on the melodica. So that that learning journey starts right from the beginning. But but all the while we're singing. We're we're clapping, we're we're doing musical games. We're doing fun finishes. We're, you know, there's all these different aspects of the lesson there that are happening to teach holistically, but with a longer term view of, of progression.

00:21:25:03 - 00:21:47:09
Unknown
So with your and this goes to everyone with your, whole class, whole group settings. If you have someone at primary who seems to be particularly excelling, how do you kind of foster that that talent? Whilst also making sure that that the rest of the group but firstly experiencing joy but also also having the chance to progress as well.

00:21:47:11 - 00:22:10:06
Unknown
Yeah, I guess one one of the ways we try to approach that is, by using GarageBand on iPads and most primary schools, do you have that? And then it would be a case of once we're finished, if you like, or once we we're leaving. Can they carry on a school club and after school club, a lunchtime club, or they go on to teach others so the kids will become ambassadors or champions in the school?

00:22:10:08 - 00:22:35:03
Unknown
And of course, then there's now trying to have that you, you use studio software and we will we will signpost people to other software, whether it's audacity or BandLab or Sound Lab or things that are available online. So therefore they can actually and that's how you progress. That's how we've become professional electronic musicians, is that we all you need is a pair of headphones, because it means you're not disturbing any family members or parents.

00:22:35:03 - 00:22:54:06
Unknown
You don't want to listen to you being out of tune for two years. You're not, you know, you just get in your bubble and you can have that agency autonomy to decide your sound. Ideally, that's how new genres can be created as well. Yes. It's a challenge that we've faced, you know, teaching nine kids on five different instruments all at the same time.

00:22:54:08 - 00:23:16:20
Unknown
And they're all coming in at slightly different levels and abilities. One of the things that we've developed is, kind of tailored arrangements. So you could be teaching a band where you've got somebody working at a grade two level, but you've also got somebody working, an initial or pre initial level. But the arrangement is tailored to make sure that it feels like they're all playing together and they're all making progress that's meaningful for them.

00:23:16:22 - 00:23:34:00
Unknown
And at a primary level, that's really lovely to see because you just see this positive peer pressure and this kind of mutual encouragement. And, you know, you see the children who are working really hard just to play a single note in time on beat one, and that's when they finally get it. The rest of the band really celebrate that.

00:23:34:04 - 00:23:50:23
Unknown
And in the same band, you might have somebody who's working on, you know, three note triads on the on the keys and when they nail it, everybody's, cheering them on. So I think it's about meaningful progress for each individual child, which is really challenging in a whole class setting. And I worked in a whole class setting for quite a long time.

00:23:51:00 - 00:24:18:15
Unknown
But I think it is about recognizing the individual progress, and those kind of holistic and musical outcomes for the individuals, but also the, the kind of social outcomes for the, for the whole, group and how they're kind of moving through, learning their learning journey together. Fantastic. Thank you. And you've spoken about some of the challenges there in that whole class setting, and some of you have already touched on ways to tackle this with the fantastic projects you work on.

00:24:18:17 - 00:24:39:04
Unknown
But more widely, I'm wondering how do you ensure quality within a large classroom setting? How can how can we roll that out to everyone in the audience today and across the sector quite widely? If you want to take that to. Yeah, well I'm thinking so the need in medicine is we have a decreasing number of specialist music teachers in schools.

00:24:39:04 - 00:24:59:24
Unknown
So, so, so it's ensuring that quality is also supporting non-specialists to deliver it. And that that is a real challenge. And that's where that's where the mini musicians project is at the moment. So we spent two years going in delivering with specialists in schools and we have the data 1000 assessments. We know that children made exceptional progress because of that input, but it costs us a quarter of 1 million pounds.

00:24:59:24 - 00:25:24:18
Unknown
We can't we can't kit for ten schools. We can't keep that. So that's not sustainable. So how what we're trying to is at the moment is how do we embed that in in in all maths in schools. How do we how do we how do we create that environment. So what we've got is as a sort of legacy program, we've got our lead practitioner going in and working side by side with class teachers, modeling activities, sharing planning and resources, and then leaving them for the next week to deliver it on their own.

00:25:24:20 - 00:25:42:04
Unknown
And over the course of the year, they're going to step back and step back. And so the class teachers are delivering it by themselves. Now, that's a really luxurious model that not every, bar is going to have. Not every local area is going to have even with that model, there are challenges there, you know, teachers nipping out to do their planning or rushing off for an emergency.

00:25:42:06 - 00:26:02:11
Unknown
We we have to tackle those, I think, with quite strong personal relationships with the teachers in the classroom. What what's helped, though, is the scheme of learning we've devised is really it's small steps learning. It's very manageable, it's very accessible. And every lesson is structured in the same way that there's a four part, structure. We start with some listening, active listening with some movement.

00:26:02:15 - 00:26:20:20
Unknown
We go into singing, we go into the main, which is easier performing or composing activity. And then we have this fun finish, which is actually a consolidation task wrapped up as a, as a fun activity so the non-specialist can get their heads around that quite quickly because the structure stays the same, the tasks are manageable, and they're being modeled in our project.

00:26:20:22 - 00:26:46:15
Unknown
We're hoping over time that will embed. But it's it is a you know, it's a is a challenge that we face. Yeah. I think I think my advice would be, just investing as much as possible and that I don't mean necessarily, financial investment, but more time into training and, and teacher training and, and just really focusing on what does an engaging lesson like how do you actually break it down, how many points of engagement are there within a lesson?

00:26:46:20 - 00:27:06:10
Unknown
How many questions is the teacher asking? How are they kind of building the flow of the energy of the lesson? So there's enough room for that peak of excitement. But then there's that reflective listening and learning. And I think it all has to be quite intentional. And that's quite tricky. And especially when you've been teaching for a long time, you forget how much you've actually built and all of the skills you have.

00:27:06:10 - 00:27:32:22
Unknown
And, you know, you've we've probably got a generation of new teachers coming in to the workforce. And, you know, I'm a firm believer of hire for passion, train for skill. But they might not have all of those skills and that knowledge and that experience. Yeah. So kind of investing there and really breaking it down. I mean, we've broken things down to like really observable skills of, you know, have you got the band sat down at the start of the lesson to to talk about what you're going to learn today because, you know, not that might not always be instinctive.

00:27:32:22 - 00:28:01:20
Unknown
So how do you really I hate the word, but kind of productize that for your teachers so that they're in a really safe, secure environment, that they can go in and just focus on the kids in the moment? So I would yeah, definitely encourage as much kind of investment in training, teachers as possible. I don't know how personally this isn't speaking personally and how teachers go in and teach a whole class trombone or trumpet or something on my word, it's just so honorable.

00:28:01:20 - 00:28:23:21
Unknown
My yeah, my sonic autism would stress out for a start, but, but yeah, with the iPad it is with technology is tricky. We ideally work with half classes and we've been working recently with them for classes. And it gets really, you know, you end up with a tangle of headphones at the end. It takes ages to get more set up and troubleshoot the headphones and the splitters because they're working groups.

00:28:23:23 - 00:28:41:09
Unknown
But one thing I did find is just tell them, just be open. This is going to take time. You're all going to be at different stages and you've got one. Like we said before about that differentiation. You've got one child that's totally ready. They've almost made an album already. When someone else is only just made two tracks, and then deleted it because they couldn't stand it.

00:28:41:09 - 00:29:00:22
Unknown
And starting again and again. It's about process for everyone, but I think just being we just quite open with the kids. We just say, okay, this is going to take ages. Can we all just be as patient as possible? Thank you. And yeah, this isn't ideal because we would like a small number and we usually find they get on board and quite helpful in that sense.

00:29:00:24 - 00:29:20:07
Unknown
Bridget, do you have anything to add? I guess just a sort of another perspective from the sort of music theater world which is the the kind of, opportunity for the whole class and obviously lots of different needs, that we have. But I think there's two things that make snap peas work really, really well. I mean, heard them all the two.

00:29:20:07 - 00:29:51:00
Unknown
But in this context that we have a music director, conductor and a drama facilitator director in the in the class with so that for all the artist led sessions. And I think just like that's another resource thing, right. It's like, well, these things are easier if you have the resource and the people and the training. So I think having those kind of like people in the room that can bounce off each other and, and kind of, you know, manage and just, you know, from the point of view of crowd management as well, because often we have the same thing that David was just talking about, where, you know, the teachers are meant to be

00:29:51:00 - 00:30:08:17
Unknown
in the space as well. But I quite often take the opportunity to nip out, so it's it's like, okay, how how do you manage class of 30 rambunctious nine year olds having two people? It's easy with two people in one. And I think the other thing is about the beauty of opera, music, theater being that like, there's all these different points of entry for kids.

00:30:08:17 - 00:30:26:15
Unknown
So it's like they don't they might we don't we do always get them all singing, but they might all not think they want to sing. But there's other ways in, in the project in terms of making props or acting, movement, directing, stage management, etc.. So it's kind of like I think that's a way of keeping a whole class engaged, just showing kids that there's different ways to make music.

00:30:26:15 - 00:30:56:20
Unknown
And I think that does apply to other genres, not just opera. That, really nicely leads us onto our next question, which is around engaging those who are less engaged, those with, lots of additional needs or, underprivileged, underrepresented in going into music education, maybe further down the line as they, as they grow up. How do you make sure that you're providing equitable opportunities, for the young people that you work with?

00:30:56:22 - 00:31:16:21
Unknown
So, many positions we were working on the sounds of in time frame work. As I mentioned, we we're working in mainstream primary schools and additionally resource provision for children with autism and a special school. And what we're really proud of is that every child in as around 700 children, every child access the same scheme of learning. They just have access to it in different ways.

00:31:16:23 - 00:31:33:19
Unknown
And because it was built around the sounds of intent right from the start, we were able to put 230 of the children both in the in the mainstream and special settings, forward for the Trinity Akhmed Award. So it's the largest cohort to go forward for that award. And they all come away with a, you know, to explain that award.

00:31:33:21 - 00:31:52:11
Unknown
I was like, no, sorry. Yeah, it's the Trinity Awards and certificates in musical development, and it's an inclusive award, and it's based on looking at what young people can do, looking at the sounds of it, sounds of intent framework, which is an inclusive understanding of how, young children or children with, different needs learn and develop music.

00:31:52:11 - 00:32:09:00
Unknown
So it was that was a really lovely aspect of the project, but some of it came down to really practical things. So I mentioned we we took the melodica little keyboard instrument that you blow into, for some of the children in the special school, blowing and playing at the same time wasn't going to be an option. So how can we give them the same access to the learning?

00:32:09:00 - 00:32:29:02
Unknown
But just take that barrier away and we okay, little keyboard, a little battery powered keyboards. And that's what worked in that setting. So it's having the same ambition for every child, but not necessarily the same route to get that. I think that's massive, isn't it? One of the things that, I was really passionate about when I first joined Rock city ten years ago was this concept of a foundation.

00:32:29:02 - 00:32:56:22
Unknown
And, we, we go in and take Rock city into, environments that you wouldn't normally be able to, to experience what we, what we do normally. So we've kind of worked on children's cancer wards. We've worked in refugee camps. We've we've taken music into, you know, siblings days, hospices and, and I think half of the access is just sort of asking what the barrier is so that you can understand it and go in and create a positive musical experience.

00:32:56:22 - 00:33:27:21
Unknown
And I think we saw a really great example of that in here earlier, you know, finding, you know, ways to reach the, the unreachable who aren't, you know, engaged with music, just ask them why they're not engaged and see if you can find a, a slightly different route in for them. Because actually, I've always found that really, a really inspiring part of being a music teacher is, you know, you might be able to get them excited about something they're listening to on the radio, but if you can work back from that and say, actually, you know, if you if you like Adele, then maybe you should go listen to Ella Fitzgerald.

00:33:27:21 - 00:33:43:22
Unknown
And if you like that, then you should go listen to this and sort of working your way back through musical history with them, but starting with meeting them where they're at. I think that's a really key part of engagement. And just, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, being child centered in, in, in music education.

00:33:43:22 - 00:33:59:07
Unknown
I think that's a really important thing. And there's loads of amazing work that I've heard about over that over the course of these few days that's happening. And I think it is that it is, you know, all the children at the center of your decision making. And it doesn't mean you have to do exactly what they say all the time.

00:33:59:07 - 00:34:19:03
Unknown
Otherwise, all the kids have be called the Dunkin Donuts at Rocksteady in their band. But I think it's, I think it's about meeting them where they're at, understanding how you know what's relevant to them, what they want to learn, and then build from there. So, I mean, we've kind of skirted around, but is is youth, is youth voice really that important at primary school level?

00:34:19:03 - 00:34:39:09
Unknown
I know that we had a question yesterday on one of our panels about, well, there's a point at which you voice, don't adults know better? It was kind of the tone, a cynical way of looking at the time of question. I think it was kind of inviting people to give a response to it. But, you know, can you can you empower primary school children to make their own choices at this level in music?

00:34:39:15 - 00:34:56:14
Unknown
I think you can in this to a certain extent for sure, because if you think about the way you teach and the way you would be interacting with the children in the moment, all you're thinking about is, am I am I engaging these children right here? Are they having an enjoyable, engaging experience? And and thought is being child led there?

00:34:56:14 - 00:35:17:13
Unknown
So it's just kind of taking it outside of the classroom and, you know, and trying to listen to that where possible. I mean, you can't do what the children wants to 100% of the time. But if you if you can be steered by, by what they're talking about, what they care about, and, and you know, what is making them what is really connecting for them with music making.

00:35:17:13 - 00:35:45:03
Unknown
I think that's a really powerful place to start in, in letting child's voice in. However, however young they are. Absolutely. And that was not at the other end of the panel. Is there anything either of you would like to add? Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything Rachel was saying. I think, another another aspect to all that is co-creation, and it's that you're providing a framework for so young people and a structure, but within that, they their voice is paramount to like what actually gets made.

00:35:45:05 - 00:36:03:22
Unknown
And that's a big part of the Snapchat program. It sounds like a lot of the other stuff. And I think just one of the point about the kind of inclusion for, you know, people who may be able to engage, we've got a growing program in special schools, and I've just got one anecdote I'd like to share, which is I think it's about creating that safe space where people feel able to take part, but also it's okay if they don't.

00:36:03:24 - 00:36:23:04
Unknown
And the first project we did in a special school, we had three separate residency weeks, and at the end of the third week, there was a kind of performance within the school for the community school community, and there was a group of kids who hadn't taken part in any of the workshops throughout these three weeks, and they turned up on the sign up for that stage full costume, joined in front of the front of the group, performing and sang everything.

00:36:23:06 - 00:36:43:05
Unknown
So it's like they they had been learning and engaging, but you couldn't you didn't witness it. So I think it's just like having that sort of like you don't know what some of you think. Someone's not engaging, but you don't actually always know what's going on. So I think just having that open mind to what engagement can look like and in different settings, I just add with the youth voice and the co-creation.

00:36:43:10 - 00:37:01:12
Unknown
My best job before this one obviously was a primary school music coordinator in Tottenham in north London. It's a fairly deprived part of the, of the borough. And we, we had already we had that culture that I was talking about because I was a specialist and, and, and I invest a lot of time and energy and we did have that culture.

00:37:01:12 - 00:37:19:01
Unknown
But the thing that the, my favorite thing that I ran, I had all these different clubs, the best thing on a I think it's a Tuesday on a Friday, I just opened the music room up on at lunchtime, and anyone who wanted could just come in and do whatever they wanted to do, and you got all sorts of, all sorts of different things going on.

00:37:19:05 - 00:37:36:06
Unknown
It was a little bit cacophonous, but it's where all the magic moments happened because they they owned that space. It was their time to come in. And, and so much grew from that. And even a, you know, year, two, year, three level children are coming in and taking ownership of their music. So there's definitely space for that in primary.

00:37:36:06 - 00:37:58:24
Unknown
Definitely. Yeah, I guess engagement looks different for different pupils, and some pupils might not necessarily have the confidence to show that kind of engagement in the classroom. So those kind of spaces are really important. I think you wanted to add something. Yeah. I suppose because we don't have the pressure of curriculum and, you know, other pressures that schools and music leaders and teachers are facing for us.

00:37:58:24 - 00:38:20:01
Unknown
Why would you do it any other way? Maybe because that's our job to try and tune in to what they want and need and to find a path for them, you know, in that sense. So I think with, with, the structure that we're using at the moment, the tools we're using at the moment, there are so many ways in and it could just be using your voice, and it could just be the joy of hearing your voice reversed.

00:38:20:01 - 00:38:42:21
Unknown
And then pitch it to up an octave to make it what we call munchkin ization. And seeing that face of, like I did that I can decide my sounds. And again, back to that autonomy, confidence, trauma informed, approach. Like I agree with you that they kind of they do need that. They need holding. They need to know that they adult always that whole like carrying the session.

00:38:43:02 - 00:39:03:24
Unknown
But apart from not they therefore have that space to bring themselves into it and to hopefully flourish. Inspiring stuff. Thank you. I mean, we could sit here and chat all day, I'm sure, but in the interest of time, I am going to move us on to our final question. What are your top three tangible tips for ambitious music making in the primary classroom?

00:39:04:01 - 00:39:29:11
Unknown
Just a warning. I'm afraid the countdown instruments will be back. Sorry. In advance. Shall we start from the opposite end this time, Bridget, just to kick us off. So I'll be more time this time. So I think that my first one is, about trying to strive for that balance between specialist led work with proper support, training and base sources for non-specialists because we need both in primary settings.

00:39:29:13 - 00:39:48:19
Unknown
And second one is about co-creation, just picking up what everyone's been saying, giving children a voice as much as possible in the music making. And the third one is about making it fun, the play based approach. I will always advocate for that. Wow, the notebooks are out for that as well. So we know that that was planned, unscripted.

00:39:48:21 - 00:40:16:03
Unknown
It was perfect. No, we had oh so 30s to go. It's too concise of anything. So up next go. The clock starts now. Echoing a bit of what you said there. The openness is one of our main values, and that's like being open to what music is. And what you think music is and how music is about transforming sound into music as well, remembering that, secondly, yes, the joy, the fun.

00:40:16:05 - 00:40:37:01
Unknown
Thirdly, I think self-awareness for those music leaders, those teachers of what you do now and what you might not know, and that's okay. And like you said about quality is about accepting what you don't know. So if we accept that a lot of what children are being taught is not what they're listening to, then how do you scale up and find out from them in that sense of what music means to them?

00:40:37:03 - 00:40:59:02
Unknown
It's amazing. You keep you keep talking about, engagement, the importance of joy. But, you're taking all the joy from Amy who can't play her instrument. Yeah. So, Rachel, you have a, opportunity to break that. Oh, thanks for starting now. It's so interesting. I think there's a there's a lot of synergy about what we're talking about.

00:40:59:02 - 00:41:18:10
Unknown
And, you know, I'd go back to that, not forgetting the inspiration piece. You know, half of, what I think kids get really excited about is seeing somebody that's really passionate about what they're doing. If you're, you know, a real life musician going into to talk to kids about music making, and you still love music making and you're conveying that, I think that is really powerful.

00:41:18:10 - 00:41:41:15
Unknown
So that that kind of inspiration piece is my first, tip, I think kind of investing as much time as possible into, teacher training and remembering that that kind of engagement and, and energy management, you know, how you manage the flow of energy in a lesson to keep the kids engaged. That doesn't just happen. Those are things that you need to give people the tools and skills to, to be able to do.

00:41:41:17 - 00:42:02:05
Unknown
And then my final one, just to echo you both, really is to is to keep listening, you know, keep listening to to your critics and the kids will be your biggest critics. Ultimately, they will always tell you what they would like to see, differently. So keep listening to to how you can improve. I'm I'm afraid we can't carry on listening.

00:42:02:07 - 00:42:26:22
Unknown
Yeah. The irony of that. Keep listening. Nope. Stop listening. I like energy management. Yeah, yeah, yeah, behavior's a lot harder to manage. I'll talk to you about it afterwards, but energy's easier to manage. Right, David? Maybe an opportunity to talk about energy. Talking now. Well, so my three four call it in primary I start early, start well and be in it for the long term.

00:42:26:22 - 00:42:46:24
Unknown
So your best music making needs to be happening in the nursery. In reception you need to invest your time and energy, your best planning, your best instruments into those early years because you can do so much more than you. I starting as a secondary teacher coming to primary, I learned how much you can teach, how much you can achieve in the nursery, start early, start well, and then be in it for the long term.

00:42:46:24 - 00:43:02:12
Unknown
Three years is my rule. If you start early and well in nursery, by the time those children are finishing year one, the children that were in year three of leaving your school, you've transformed the whole school, but you need to be in it for that. That length of time is a minimum. So start early, start well, be in it for the long term.

00:43:02:14 - 00:43:30:00
Unknown
Amazing. And with 20s to go, it's amazing to hear. Well, I think the summary from today's engagement on longevity, which I think you've kind of summed up really well there. Joy, joy, joy, joy I can't forget joy has been a two day conference. I'm working. Joy. It's we're working towards joy here. So without further ado, a massive thank you, to Cairo, David, Bridget and Rachel, for sharing, their work.

00:43:30:01 - 00:43:35:04
Unknown
Thank you guys.