Ep 30 From Division To Dialogue: Faith, Law, And Community

What does real return look like—personally, communally, and scripturally? We sit down with two thoughtful voices who don’t dodge hard texts or hard truths to explore unity, covenant, and the ethics behind our deepest beliefs. From the first beat, we ask whether respect and listening can replace rivalry, and whether love shows up most in the actions we refuse to take when our thoughts go dark. That opens the door to a bracing, text‑first examination of repentance: Deuteronomy 30 as a blueprint for turning that begins with us before it blossoms into restoration.

The debate then moves into contested ground. If the Most High’s laws don’t change, how do we understand forgiveness in exile when sacrifice isn’t possible? Can Solomon’s temple prayer support atonement without blood, and if so, what does that do to substitutionary claims? One side argues that prophecy demands a Messiah whose atonement addresses humanity’s deepest separation; the other presses the ethics of innocent blood and the impossibility of justifying the wicked by condemning the righteous. Along the way, we revisit first principles: rules for testing prophecy, the timeline of fulfillment, and whether salvation must be tangible, like the Exodus, or spiritual, like freedom from the second death.

Name theology raises the stakes even higher. Does covenant fidelity require publicly bearing and practicing the divine name, along with Torah, Sabbath, and the feasts? Or do we “make the name known” by faithfully representing the Father’s will? We also examine whether righteousness existed before later atonement claims—Noah, Abraham, Hezekiah—and what those examples imply about grace, obedience, and identity today. No one gets an easy win. What we offer instead is clarity on where the paths diverge and a shared commitment to live the return we advocate: action over posturing, charity over caricature, rigor over rumor.

If you value thoughtful faith, careful Scripture, and honest disagreement without the noise, this conversation will meet you where you are and challenge you to go deeper. Listen, take notes, bring your questions, and then tell us what text or takeaway shifted your view. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves a good study, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Purpose Of The Dialogue
• 5:05 Are We Spiritually United Or Drifting?
• 10:30 Leadership, Listening, And The Meaning Of “The Truth”
• 17:20 Violence, Justice, And Ethics In Scripture
• 22:45 Seeking God’s Face And The Role Of Example
• 28:40 Can We Really Unite Across Beliefs?
• 36:10 Return, Repentance, And Deuteronomy 30
• 44:05 Who Is “God’s People” And Do They Lose Status?
• 51:15 Circumcision Of The Heart: When And By Whom
• 58:20 The Core Dispute: Messiah’s Role And Law
• 1:06:05 Forgiveness Without Blood? Kings 8 And Exile
• 1:14:50 Prophecy Rules And Fulfillment Debates
• 1:22:20 Innocent Blood, Justice, And Atonement
• 1:29:40 Name Theology: Knowing And Proclaiming Yahweh
• 1:37:25 New Covenant Claims Versus Textual Markers
• 1:45:10 Future Kingdom, Torah From Zion, And Zechariah 14
• 1:53:00 Salvation Defined: Tangible Rescue Or Spiritual Freedom?
• 2:00:20 First And Second Death, Sin, And Hope
• 2:07:30 Pre‑Messiah Righteousness And Examples
• 2:14:40 Final Cross‑Exam: Justice, Substitution, And Abomination

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:10

Oh praise to the most high. What's going on, y'all? It's your boy of beer. And what this is. It's been a while, though, man. Stay still. So everyone goes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17

I'll go ahead and guys make it real quick. Everybody else wants for the last decade or so. But um I thank you guys for your time today. I'm looking forward to having a conversation with our public hope sharing some different ideas that we wanted to make sure I have platforms your public in regards to what we understand some of the things that we have discovered on our journey. I'm really excited about being uh brother post.

SPEAKER_05: 1:56

Yeah, what's going on, everybody? This is uh Pope Julius in Chicago. Bible study um five editions at the same time.

SPEAKER_00: 2:14

So good to be here. Oh, praises. I already know who I am. But hey, honestly, we had the brother Pope on the like of a, I think it was like three or four episodes ago. Yeah, me and him had a good build, man. Y'all go check that that uh that episode out. I think it's like episode 22, 23, or something like that. But check it out though, man. It was a good build, man. And you know, me, every time me and the brother Pope sit down and have conversation, it's always a good build. It's always that a fine that uh I always learn something from the brother. I mean, everybody, every everybody that I talked to about the brother, I always say that and I always have to put that in there because it's like, you know, even though we don't believe it. And got their questions answered, and you know, it was an audience. I had to bring these two brothers together because I respect and I love both of them a lot and I basically learned from both of them from both sides too. So I had to bring both of them together, and we just have a real retroactive like conversation just about everything. You know, and I just want to see they side a software. Without further ado, I'm gonna go ask the first question. How do y'all feel about, like, how do y'all feel that, you know, our the the way our people are are leaning towards right now fit like in a in a in a spiritual manner? Like, do you think that it could be better, or do you think that, you know, like we we really are like we get in there, but we not we, like, you know, like they say, you know, we almost there, but we didn't finish the race, or do we think y'all think that we kind of far off as far as spiritually coming together, being united, and just coming and and understanding and being able to be objective and understand and and love each other with the respect that we should have with each with one another. Do y'all how what do y'all think we at with that?

SPEAKER_02: 5:49

I I I'll I'll go ahead and go first. I just think that um to speak to your point about where we are, I think this conversation that we're having today is a great uh representation of what it could be, right? Um, you know, in terms of love and respect as the key that you mentioned. And I think where we're coming to understand is that we have to be able to listen to one another. We really have to we have to do that. We don't really have, I would say, um, you know, leaders in in our communities that can bring us all together as a people. I think we have leaders, but I don't think we're you know, we don't have uh a group or a body of of leaders that all of us are listening to, right? And I don't know for whatever reason that's the case, but I would say today's a great example of what we could do um to become uh better people and to be more seriously in tune by just listening to one another and not necessarily trying to judge one another, but just presenting you know, and I wouldn't say our truth, I would say the truth, right? Because there is the truth, and then of course there's things that are not necessarily true. And and when we define that, I think we can agree upon that. And I think when we start looking at how we treat each other, because that was something I was teaching on today about one of the reasons why the most high destroyed the earth and um with a flood is simply because of how man was treating one another, talked about how they were doing violence, and in Hebrew that word is called Hamas, and in English it's called Hamas, you know, which you have names between um the uh you know the Jewish state and the people of the Palestinians and in Gaza or what they call this uh a group called Hamas. Well they get that name from the word Hamas, and Hamas means violence, and it means uh opposition, and it means to, you know, to be in hostility. So I think what we need to do is is understand some of the lessons that you know we're supposed to learn in this life, and we have life lessons that we can learn from or we can extract from. So one of the first examples we have of um you know the most high saying I had enough um is simply because the people were not sensitive to how they should treat one another and how you know and how they interact with one another. So that's my take on that.

SPEAKER_00: 8:19

Okay. What's what you feeling, bro?

SPEAKER_05: 8:24

Um man, I think I think we're uh certainly a a little far left. Um I think right now we've got all of the carts ahead of the horses that we're not necessarily shooting for what's important, right uh more than anything else. Uh because because it's such a scattered subject and there are layers to it, uh huh, I think that makes it difficult for people to narrow down what the point really is. Right. Uh for me, for me, it is uh a restorative relationship with the most high, I believe, comes first. Um I believe it's like first chronicles talks about how if his people who are called by his name will humble themselves and seek his face turned from their sin. And so um we can't get where we're gonna get without the most high's hand and everything. And it doesn't come from maybe some of the secular views that we've been given as approaches to change. And that's what people start to use more. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 9:33

That was uh that's a great a great um text that you use there. Um the idea about if his people it's always a matter of now of if, right? So it's the theoretical um if they would if they were turned. Right. Um but of course we'd have to look at it a little closer because a lot of times when they use that word if in the scriptures, it's really not a um it's a more or less a relative pronoun like kind of like not if a when. So it's not if it's really like when right in Hebrew that is aim. So when my people. So it's a matter of choice, right? Um, so you're right about that. And the thing is, is when you talk about turning their face or you know, turn and seek me, right? And l and forsake their sins, and they turn their face and they look look towards him. Um what's your understanding about that, Pope? How how could people who don't really necessarily know who he is, how could they seek his face? And what is seeking his face?

SPEAKER_05: 10:51

Well, uh it's impossible for a man who is found as as being a uh a non-believer to make it without there being some type of a draw. And so uh the draw comes from from the fishermen or the labormen who are out who are actually living the life themselves, being some form of an example and being able to carry that message to them. Uh sometimes it's through actions, other times it's through words that are followed by actions.

SPEAKER_00: 11:26

And that's that's deep. That's deep. Because I I do definitely feel that, you know, how we how we turn back and we we honor the most high is with definitely with our actions. And and just making sure that even though, you know, we have those messed up thoughts, because we all have those messed up thoughts, we can admit that y'all. But when we do have those messed up thoughts, that we don't act upon them. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's what like the most high is like really sitting back and watching, like, man, is he go active find that messed up thought? I know he had it like, but is he going to act on it? Is he going to act upon it and and what what does he feel like or does he feel like the replic repercussions, repercussions of this action will be? I don't know, I I'm just, you know, paraphrasing, I don't know if that's what the most I think or not, but you know, I just think that uh we we definitely I agree with you. The action is basically one of the biggest steps to you know moving back, turning back. So with that being said, how do y'all feel like we would like our people can uh can unify under under under a banner and with with the different beliefs? And a different you know, different way to get back and praise God.

SPEAKER_02: 12:45

That's a good question. I think what it's gonna take for for us to come together to unify, unfortunately, it's gonna take judgment. That's that's what it's gonna take. It's not gonna take, you know. I used to be of the understanding that, you know, we could talk and we could have people, um, as um Brother Polk was talking about how you would send people out there who was living a life and talking to them. Yeah. Kind of like in the days of the prophets, when the prophets were sent to go speak to the children of Israel and tell them what their faults were, so they had to make it known to them about what it is. But we understand now from a Hebraic perspective that the most high has clearly made it known that for us to turn back to him is something where we have to uh it comes to us ourselves. We have to this action we have to do on ourselves. So what I mean by on ourselves is that in the idea of the Hebrew language and the way the scriptures were written, there's things that can either be done to a person or can be done by a person. Okay. So someone can do the action themselves, or the action can happen to them, right? If the action is happening to them, then it's causative. So someone's causing something to happen to them. So, and and there's another idea that says that the individual is the one who's doing the action on themselves, which they would call reflexive, like, hey, I'm gonna dress myself, I bathe myself, I wash myself. So the most high calls the children of Israel, his people that are called by his name, which we'll get into about his name, it says that you have to return back unto me. So it's not it's not a a a what they would say a uh a plural, it is used in a singular, and it's in the book of Deuteronomy, chapter number 30. Um I uh is it I don't know if it's okay, but is it okay if I read just a little part of that so the listeners can hear? Yeah, go for it. Yeah, so in the book of Deuteronomy, chapter number 30, and I'm I'm gonna do my best to just you know stay away from the Hebrew because a lot of people don't wouldn't know what I'm talking about. And if I do speak it, I do want to explain whatever I'm saying. So here it says in chapter number 30 and verse number one in the book of Deuteronomy, it says, When the time arrives that all these things have happened to you or come upon you, both the blessing and the curse, which I have presented to you, and you are there among the nations to which Yahweh your Elohim has driven you, then at last you, singular, will start thinking about what's happened to you, singular, and you will return to Yahweh your Elohim, and you will pay attention to what he has said, has sent, which will be exactly what I am ordering you to do today, you and your children with all of your heart and with all of your being. Then he goes on to talk about at that time he'll reverse your exile. So I brought that scripture out just basically to bring up the fact it's not something that someone else is going to do for you, it's something that you have to come to on your on your own. Going back to the questions you asked, what could we do to bring us together? And the answer is nothing. According to the scriptures. What's the group can do? Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 16:32

So, okay. That's an interesting take. What's you what's your take on that, bro?

SPEAKER_04: 16:40

Well, I mean, I I suppose uh my question would be, before I can give a response, would be what is looking, what is it what does it look like for us to come back, uh come together? What does that really look like?

SPEAKER_05: 16:56

Um, I mean, um people are expecting that different tribes who haven't operated with one another in many years will be able to come together and not have any differences without even knowing the differences, they're already fighting each other. Right. And so, excuse me. I think what's important is um is that we all dig dig into the path in which we've just been laid before us.

SPEAKER_04: 17:30

Um, I think that we'll discover more and have a greater understanding and more wisdom towards the end. Though there is enough to gather what's really happening right now. And and and so, uh, but those things are gonna be debatable. And so if we're going to have to debate, let's debate on something that's gonna change, not something that's not, you know what I mean? Um because because all of us believe what we believe, right?

SPEAKER_05: 18:00

And the truth is, unless we feel like we've received uh a download that's different from what we've already received, then that's probably not gonna change. However, that doesn't make us adversarial to one another. You know, uh uh we're we're two different fruit on the same tree. And so to come to understand that, I think means that we're not as antithetical to one another as society would like for us to really be. Right. You know what I mean? Um, you know, we can choose to focus on on our differences or or our commonalities. And uh, I don't think either either one of those things put us in a at a point of of being heretical, to have a mutual respect for one another in such a way.

SPEAKER_00: 18:51

That so, right? I mean, that is crazy. Both of y'all kind of like agree. But it it the way that y'all got to it and landed the plane was beautiful. So I uh I definitely agree. It it's gonna take an extraneous situation. Like we, it it's definitely gonna be our choice, but it's hard for us right now. Because like Pope said, it's it's hard for us to to have that agreement and be like and be respectful at times. You know what I'm saying? Because one thing it's easy for me.

SPEAKER_05: 19:24

Okay, it's easy for me, and I'm gonna tell you why I say it's easy. Because I understand in the bigger scheme of things where I sit, regardless to what anybody really tries to say. Okay. To me. Right. Now, now now that's just me talking about me. Yeah, yeah. Talking about nobody else. Yeah. Um, I I look at at this maybe a lot differently than than some would. Or some have come to understand it, you know, but seeing where scripture talks about the the engrafting into the into the family of the most high, be being given the right to be a son of the most high, um or a child of the most high. You know what I mean? Um you know, and it's just I don't have no lack of of a sense of security in what it is that I believe. And so um so for me, it's about trying to live that thing out. You know, which I I don't I do that free of uh penalty in that sense. You know what I mean? Right. I'm able to make make my errors and learn from them and use the grace of the most high to move forward.

SPEAKER_02: 20:37

And so can I can I can I um ask you a question in regards to what you said about um someone being given the right to become the son of God or become one of the children? Um is that stating that individuals who subscribe or understand themselves to already be the children of Elohim or the children of Yahweh prior to um the understanding that you have to believe in order to become that? Because we understand from the original writings that it says that the children of Israel, like Israel is my son, and then when he's talking about it, it's not talking about him in a um well, the context that is singular, but he's addressing the nation of people when that's being said, because Moses was told to convey that message to Pharaoh that Israel is my son, making reference to the nation of Israel, the God of the Hebrew people. So so by definition, they're already his children, and there's other passages, of course, in the prophets that talk about, and even in Deuteronomy, it talks about how the children that these people, these these group of people are already his children, they're his sons and they're his daughters. So if they're his sons and daughters, do they ever lose their right to be his son and daughter and then therefore having to become his sons and daughters again? Or how how would you um how would you reconcile those two things?

SPEAKER_05: 22:18

Well, uh, here's what I say. First of all, there are there are two paths. Uh the New Testament addresses this from two angles, and we see a highlighting of this even in in the book of Revelation, where it talks to a group of people. Uh the writer is is talking to a group of people and he's saying, Hey, I know that you you say you are Jews, but you are not. And so um there's a cultural graph that's that's natural, and then there is a path through the atonement that the most high gave through his son, Yahshua, Hamasia.

SPEAKER_02: 22:59

Okay, so with the actual atonement understanding that you have, did that atonement then make you a son or a daughter as or 'cause I understand what you're saying about the one is the the spiritual concept, and then of course the one is the physical um children of Israel. Um and when he was when he was discussing it to Pharaoh, he was not only just talking about the physical, he's talking about the spiritual. Um that they are his children. And he also said that you know, and not just there, but all in the other areas that he told them that I'm the one who birthed you, I'm the one who did this for you. So my my question was G is like, did they lose their ability to be sons and daughters?

SPEAKER_05: 23:48

Well, no. How how would they why how would they have lost it if they never knew they had it?

SPEAKER_02: 23:52

Well, no, they they did know. They knew that they were his children, and we were told on several occasions that they were his children. So when he when he goes to the New Testament I'm asking, are you making reference to people who don't know? Like, for example, like the gent like the Gentiles versus the children of Israel, because when it says that you know, you mentioned the uh those who say they're Jews or not, that doesn't um you know consist of the whole uh family of well if if if we consider in context who was it was uh it was being spoken to but yeah at that time it was a group of Gentiles. Yeah. So that didn't have anything to do with the children of Israel then.

SPEAKER_05: 24:37

Correct.

SPEAKER_02: 24:38

Correct. And the Jews are not they don't you know consist of all twelve tribes. They're just one tribe out of the actual thirteen. Correct? Yeah, so so to address and say that those who say they're Jews are not, I can under I can kind of see that, but I don't think that's addressing the um idea of all the nation of Israel, which consists of the 12 tribes, including Levi being the 13th. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 25:10

You know what? I think that it now as I sit here and look, because I've read that that passage too, and as I sit here and listen to both of y'all, I think that it like, and I'm getting the understanding of this this particular topic that we're on right now. I think that it's talking about, you know, people like like how it says, you know, the people draw, they, they draw, they speak about me in their mouth with their mouth, but in their hearts, they they you know, they they ain't they so far from me. And well, Paul Paul, huh?

SPEAKER_05: 25:42

Paul Paul addressed that by by talking about uh whether or not the the circumcision was a physical one or spiritual one. He said one can be a Jew outwardly, but one can be can be a Jew inwardly. Right. And so he was talking about the circumcision of the heart. You know, have have your have your heart been pricked in such a way to where you honor the most high. And you know what I mean? And so uh we know that every everyone is not gonna experience that.

SPEAKER_02: 26:16

Because they're not in the day that the most high had asked them to speak in your circumcision, Moshe had told them that they needed to circumcise their hearts, right? To go along with what you're talking about. But we see in the book of Deuteronomy that he says that at this particular time that the children of Israel, not talking about the Gentiles, when they are scattered in the land that of their enemies, he said, I will be going against you. And then by time he says, I'll bring you back to your land of inheritance, he says, Then I will circumcise your heart. So according to what's written, uh the circumcision of the heart for Israel, or specifically for the nation of Israel, is when the Most High Himself does the circumcision of the heart for them when they are back in their land.

SPEAKER_05: 27:11

Right, right. Right, but but no man circumcises himself at all, whether physically or spiritually. I mean that that's I thought that goes without saying.

SPEAKER_02: 27:23

Yes, very, very true. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_05: 27:25

So I mean you know, circumcision is something that happens to you. Yeah. It's being used in a reactive sense in in terms of receiving. So uh I I think I think um you know, the the core of our pathways, I think, that that intersect one another is who the Messiah is, what the role of the Messiah is, and what role he plays in our individual lives. Or if not. Um because uh that's the that's the core of the of the Christian foundation. Is our relationship to Christ, through his death, his burial, and his resurrection. As prophesied in the old testament.

SPEAKER_02: 28:14

Okay. So let's um I like that point that you brought, because that is the core, right? That's the core issue. Um so the the question would be is for that I would have for you so the the listeners can they probably this is a question I think that a lot of people would ask, is that did Christ come from your understanding, did he come to um when he came, did he decide that he's gonna change any of the Creator's laws?

SPEAKER_05: 28:46

No.

SPEAKER_02: 28:47

Okay. So all of the laws that the most high has said, are they still in effect?

SPEAKER_05: 28:56

Oh good.

SPEAKER_02: 28:57

So if they're if all yes, because his laws are never gonna change. So what is it that Christ what does he set them free from? Because I know Paul had his writings come out, he set you free from the law of sin of death. But what did you what would you say that Christ freed the believer from?

SPEAKER_05: 29:21

Um well, ultimately, complete separation from the most high. Um, I mean, sin is more than is more than just a disease, yet it's a full condition. It's a state of being and a state of mind. And so, um, yeah, I mean, I don't know if that that was plain enough for you. No, it's uh I mean because because um freedom. From the penalty of sin within and itself allows for uh uh person to be able to be utilized in a way that they were not able to be utilized before. Uh we don't we don't come intact within our sinful nature with uh a rebuttal system for that that's pure enough. That's why we saw sacrifice being made in the old testament in the book of Leviticus. Uh we see it even as early as Genesis chapter 3, because Adam and Eve were given skin. And those skins had to come from something that was a lot. Um, and so we always saw uh the shedding of blood for the remiss of skin. We've always seen that. And so when we started looking in into the uh into the book of Isaiah, the ninth chapter or the 53rd chapter, then we start seeing the prophecy uh being fulfilled that started all the way in Genesis chapter.

SPEAKER_02: 31:02

Oh, going back to Genesis chapter number three, verse 15.

SPEAKER_05: 31:06

That's about right.

SPEAKER_02: 31:08

Yeah. Um the idea then is to deal, make sure that humanity is not completely separated from the most high, meaning it's to restore. If we go back to Genesis, I think when you say this separation, it could be because the man was he was exiled out of the presence of the most high, out of his, you know, the garden, out of the state of the garden, the place where he was the most high. Um, and so he took upon himself to rebel against the command of the most high. And then you mentioned about the sacrificial system dealing with the shedding of blood. My question for you is is the only way for sin to be forgiven or to be taken care of or atoned for is only through blood.

SPEAKER_05: 31:59

Wasn't that the purpose of most of the sacrifices?

SPEAKER_02: 32:05

No, not at all. There's um there's over five different types of according to the story, there's five different um offerings that remain um for you know just making sacrifices, right? So we got the polla, which is a full burnt offering, we got the the minka, which was the grain offering, then we have the salamine, which is the oil, you know, the oil offering, the peace offering. Um we have the asham, which is the guilt offering, and then we have the kata, which is the sin offering. So those are the five different offerings that had to be made for um to the Most High, but not all of them was for sin, and not all sacrifice was atoning for blood. Some sacrifices that they made um was just to say ham at peace accused, some sacrifices it's made just because of the understood.

SPEAKER_05: 32:56

Understood, understood. However, that doesn't take away the fact that there was a sacrifice that needed to be made for sin.

SPEAKER_02: 33:04

Yeah. So my initial question again is is that the only place that you know? Because there are several places that said that he forgives them without any sacrifice for sin. Go ahead, so okay. So um do you have your Bible? I'm pretty sure you do.

SPEAKER_05: 33:26

Um I don't, I don't have it in front of me at the moment.

SPEAKER_02: 33:29

Okay, so I'll go through the book that you mentioned earlier, which is second chronicles, and you said chapter number seven. So we're gonna go ahead and we're gonna go to chapter number eight of second chronicles. And is it second chronicle or first chronicle? I think it's first chronicle. No, I'm sorry, I'm seeing Chronicles. It's Kings. I'm sorry. So uh let's go to First Kings and we'll go to chapter number eight. Look at my Bible right. 1 Kings chapter number 8. And this is what it says, and we're gonna be dealing with sin more specifically, because I agree with you that you know they have to make some type of offering, right? So sometimes he said you just need to come with me with words, but this is where I want to take us. I know that we'll agree together. So it says in chapter number eight, verse number 46. This in context is talking about uh the children of Israel, and it's talking the one who's making this prayer. This is a prayer of King Solomon when he was making a dedication to the temple. And so this is a request that he's making to the most high. And he says, If they sin against you, for there is no one who doesn't sin, and you are angry with them, and you hand them over to the enemy, and you carry them off captive to the lands of their enemies, whether far away or nearby, then if they come to their senses in the land where they have been carried away captive, turn back and make their plea to you in the land of those who carry them off captive, saying, We sin, we act wrongly, we behave wickedly. If in the land of their enemies who carried them off captive, they return to you with all of their heart and being, and pray to you toward their own land, to which you gave to their ancestors, toward the city that you chose, and toward the house that I built for your name, then in heaven where you live, hear their prayer and their plea, and uphold their cause, and forgive your people who have sinned against you, forgive their transgressions, which they have committed against you, and give them compassion in the sight of their captors, so that they will share so they will show compassion toward them. For they are your people, your inheritance, and whom you brought out of Egypt out of the flames of the iron furnace. And then he goes on and continues with his prayer, and then the most high answers him in chapter number nine and says, I've heard your prayer. I've heard your prayer, and yes, I'll do that. So, children of Israel, in context, going back to Deuteronomy, where he says, When you're in the lands of your enemies, you'll start thinking, you'll come to your senses, and you'll start thinking. So, what we see here is there is no uh sacrifice, um, blood atonement sacrifice needed for the children of Israel to be forgiven, primarily because when they're out of their land, they're not able to make any type of sacrifices for any for any type of sin. They're not in the Most High's presence, and so they're not allowed to make sacrifices in only in the place where he has said his name. So this is one of the examples that I can show you, but I also have others where there is no blood sacrifice to make atonement for the children of Israel for their sin.

SPEAKER_03: 37:26

Thank you for sure.

SPEAKER_02: 37:27

Oh, absolutely. So going back to our question then about why or what's the efficacy of the sacrifice of Christ. So if if man can have his sins forgiven without any shedding of blood, then of course why would they need a man to sacrifice himself?

SPEAKER_05: 37:48

Well, uh again, I I go back and I reference the old testament prophecies. That uh they said that the Messiah was going to come. Uh Daniel chapter seven, uh all the way through chapter nine uh lays out quite a bit of it. Uh Isaiah complements that with uh descriptions as well as the book of Psalms.

SPEAKER_02: 38:22

So the the fundamental or the foundation of your understanding is based upon prophecy. Right. So we there there are rules to prophecy, and so um I'll just express them that are found in the book of Deuteronomy, chapter number 18, verse number 15. Um he talks about him providing a prophet to the children of Israel, um, and then whatever he tells them, right? You gotta listen to him because he's gonna be telling you what I said, and one of the prerequisites of that is that this prophet is supposed to speak in the most high's name. The children of Israel asked the question how are we to know that you have spoken this word? And he said, if this has not happened, then I did not speak this that word. And you have nothing to fear of that prophet. But the condition was any prophet that speaks in my name, right? And so my question to you is if you're using, I heard you mention Isaiah, and I believe it's chapter number seven that you mentioned, and chapter number nine.

SPEAKER_05: 39:39

Um I'll say Daniel.

SPEAKER_02: 39:43

And well, I'll call Daniel too. Um if if we were to look at those those prophecies, if they were to if you were to be shown that they were already fulfilled, um that would probably give you a different perspective, I think.

SPEAKER_05: 40:00

Yeah. Uh I don't I don't think so. I don't think that would give me a a different look.

SPEAKER_03: 40:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 40:10

How about the idea of someone innocent dying for you? Right? So does the most high authorize the shedding of innocent blood?

SPEAKER_05: 40:24

You said what?

SPEAKER_02: 40:25

Does he authorize the shedding of innocent blood?

SPEAKER_05: 40:29

Well, I mean, weren't were not the animals innocent? Did they did the animal sin when it was time for the sacrifice? For the uh for the sin sacrifice to go up?

SPEAKER_02: 40:39

Yeah, but we're talking about a human being, right?

SPEAKER_05: 40:42

No, right, no, but but we can't escape the fact that the origin of even what we're talking about comes from the concept. We see the concept being emulated by Ibrahim, even. We see the concept going forth as early as the book of Genesis. We see a shadow of that happening. And then we see it consistently happen all through the book of Leviticus. So you can't avoid the or the origin of where it comes from.

SPEAKER_02: 41:15

I agree. So let's deal with Genesis then. Let's so when he when he provided them with the the the coverings for their bodies and he made it, you know from your understanding, are you saying that he atoned for them at that point?

SPEAKER_03: 41:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 41:33

Okay. So if he atoned for them, then why were they still cursed? Or why was the land still cursed and why would the woman still have to experience her curse?

SPEAKER_05: 41:43

Because he said that they was going through he said they were gonna have to go through that. Okay, so man that came from his mouth.

SPEAKER_03: 41:50

So that atoned for him.

SPEAKER_05: 41:52

I mean, so let me ask you a question. How many things have you done that may have been, let's just say, inappropriate? We'll use the word inappropriate, right? That were inappropriate, yeah. And uh maybe not so becoming, right? Of a believer. Um did you not still have to suffer consequences even though you received some grace in the matter?

SPEAKER_03: 42:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 42:21

Because because because we know under the under the old law, uh one would die for certain of uh uh offenses. And so um, but we're today, some of those same laws, we're able to have a sense of grace about some of that stuff. Well, we may not have had that. And so uh, you know, you have to take that into consideration.

SPEAKER_02: 42:47

So are you suggesting that the things that require death for a person who commits any type of sin that's requ that is requiring of the death penalty? Are you saying that because they are able to believe that they kind of escape that death punishment that that they're is supposed to be fulfilled?

SPEAKER_05: 43:07

Uh I I I would say this. That the the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. And so um but it also refers to death being the that there's a second death. And so um I don't want to be eternally separated from the most high.

SPEAKER_03: 43:29

I understand Yeah, you're breaking up.

SPEAKER_02: 43:43

Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Yeah, can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you now. So where would you say, brother? What'd you say, folks?

SPEAKER_05: 43:50

No, I was saying that that um that there's no other way for you to be able to deal with the RC in yourself.

SPEAKER_02: 43:58

Okay. Well that's that's something that we can talk about because we understand that um not every sin that a person committed was worthy of the death penalty. Right? So we know that the most high makes provision for individuals who make what they would call they would be a sin and the atonement could be made for them. And it's not always to atonement to an animal. If a person was poor, then they would bring him flour. Or they would bring him a a a dove, but flour if they were really poor. So they wouldn't have so you know, you would have to unalive anything except for bringing some grain to have your sin forgiven for a sin that's unintentional that we find in the book of Leviticus, chapter number four and five. So he's letting us know that there are what they would call shigagas in Hebrew, meaning an error that people will make a mistake. It's called inadvertent sin. And the individual who was either a leader or a priest or an individual or a male or female, they had to deal with it or provide an offering that was contingent to what their status was and depending on who they were. So there was different levels. So, you know, for a leader, of course, they would have to bring a ram. For a regular man, he had to bring a male lamb, or a female, she would have to bring a uh, you know, a female uh lamb. Um, if it was for a priest, he would have to bring an ox, you know, so all these different degrees, but we see that it's you know the same thing, that of course there's the blood that that he required for that to be, right? And so um, but the idea of them, even if they made an error, some type of mistake, that was what was forgiven. The sin that that the world understands today is the sins that they have committed, like you said, there's things that people believe that they have done, and because they confessed that you know they believe that they're gonna escape the punishment of the law that has not changed, but they feel that someone else has to take their place so they don't have to worry about that pump penalty when that's not true. That's not true. The laws provides for whoever has committed this are the ones who are gonna have to be dealt with. I asked a question earlier about the most high providing the innocent to die for the wicked, and he says in his law that he will never acquit the wicked with the shedding of the innocent blood of the righteous. Never. So even if blood was shed of an innocent person, that blood that was theirs can never atone for anyone wicked. So the sins that these other people are committing, you know, like they committed murder or they committed, you know, kidnapping, or they did all these other, you know, sins that require death. Most high said that he's not going to provide any atonement for them. And what we have here, he's not, I'm not going to justify them. Exodus chapter number 23, verse number seven. In his law, he says, keep away from fraud and do not cause the death of the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked. So we know that when Christ said he came, he said he doesn't come for the righteous, but he comes for the wicked. So that's different than what the Creator has said about the wicked versus the righteous. No justification.

SPEAKER_05: 47:44

Well you do know that there's a difference between the covenant that he made with Israel and the new covenant that he was going to make with all mankind, right?

SPEAKER_02: 47:56

Well, which covenant the the covenant is with all mankind? Are you still speaking the one that he made with Noah? That said that he's making this with Noah and all mankind and all the earth. Is that the covenant?

SPEAKER_05: 48:06

No, no.

SPEAKER_02: 48:11

Which covenant are you talking about?

SPEAKER_05: 48:14

Talking about the covenant where you said that uh that and there will be a new covenant.

SPEAKER_02: 48:19

Okay. And so with covenant, then we know that there's always a sign that he makes a covenant, right? So Noah was the rainbow, with Abraham it was the covenant of circumcision.

SPEAKER_05: 48:33

Christ was the sign.

SPEAKER_02: 48:34

Okay. So, okay, and so where does the creator say that this is the sign? Where does he that he specifically said to Noah that this is the sign, is my rainbow, this is my rainbow. He tells Abraham, this is my sign, which will be the circumcision. He tells the children of Israel, the Sabbath is my sign, which means so where did the creator speak about Christ himself being the first time? He doesn't speak to anybody to create his name. Nobody's name. He doesn't speak his name. And that is where the problem is. Because the most high says if the prophet comes and he speaks the word in my name, and if it doesn't come to pass, then I didn't speak that word and I didn't send that prophet. So I'm looking for a covenant that has been executed by the most high.

SPEAKER_05: 51:59

Well, you know, I expect you to look forward to come a certain way.

SPEAKER_02: 52:04

I mean that doesn't for me, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's not it's not proper just because it has to come, then what do you think it necessarily so if you if if I know a lot of people use Jeremiah 31 31 that says that that is that the covenant that you're under?

SPEAKER_05: 52:30

Uh read it.

SPEAKER_02: 52:33

Um Jeremiah 31, 31 is a passage which a lot of people use to say that when Christ came, he spoke these words, and therefore they entered into a new covenant with the most high. And the words are going to be said like this. Here the days are coming, says Yahweh, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day that I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt, because they for their part violated my covenant, even though for my part I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh. I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brothers, saying, No Yahweh, for I, for all will know me, for the least of them to the greatest, because I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more. So often people use this to say that this is the covenant that He's made with them through Christ. And my question then would be if that is the case, then of course they would have to have the Torah written on their hearts, and they would actually actually know Yahweh. And so if you ask the average person who believes that they're in a covenant with the Most High, and you ask them to recite the Torah, and they don't know the Torah, they do not know the Torah, they do not understand the instructions, all they understand is the New Testament, they don't know the Torah, they don't they don't know Him, they do not even know Yahweh's name. See, so Yahweh's name is the only name that's ever going to be spoken, and that's in a prophecy in Zechariah chapter number 14, verse number nine, that there's no mention of Christ at all whatsoever in any prophecy in the future. There's no future prophecy in the book of Isaiah, chapter 2, you know, Micah chapter number 5, when it says, All the world is going to come up, and all the nations are going to come up and they're going to worship Yo He Wahhe and they're going to learn the Torah from him. Zechariah says there in that day there's only going to be one name, and that name is going to be Yod Hewahe. It's going to be Yahweh's name. That's the only name that's going to receive praise. And he said, He shall be the king over the whole entire earth. And there's no mention of anybody with him. So that's the reason why we have these questions. See? So if if Christ is the king, and if he's in a new everyone's in a new covenant with with Yahweh or Yahweh or Yahuwah, if they're in a covenant with him, then they would know his Torah, they would keep his Sabbath days, and also too, they would be going up to Jerusalem on an annual basis to go observe the feast of what they call Sukkot. And the feasts are not done away with, so that hasn't happened. So the question is, does everyone know his name? No. Is everyone still being taught? Is Yahweh teaching them? No, they're still being taught by everyone. So that covenant is not in effect. And a matter of fact, he says that I'm making a covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. There is nowhere in there in that in particular passage that says I'm making this covenant with the whole entire world. I'm making it with those two kingdoms, right? That were divided, which are the children of Israel. And so we know that the children of Israel and the two children of Judah, those two six that are in Ezekiel, have not been put together. Like he they prophesied to put them together and bring them back to their own land. See, so that covenant hasn't taken place yet. And we know that if it's a prophecy, the rules for prophecy is Yahweh said that he told the children of Israel, He said, You're gonna ask me, how do we know that you've spoken his word? He says, You will know that I spoke this word only if it comes to pass. So if this hasn't happened yet, we cannot ascribe this to anybody. We cannot ascribe this to Christ, we can't ascribe this to nobody. Most high has never asked the children of Israel to believe anything. He actually wants us to see it with our own eyes. Matter of fact, the book of Deuteronomy tells us, hey, you guys saw what I did to Pharaoh, you saw what I did to his army, you saw what I did to the Imri. You saw what I did to the King Bashan, you saw what I did to the King of Ob. You saw what I did to this to these people, right? So you've already seen it. You saw my fire, you heard the thunder and the lightning, you heard me speaking. You didn't see any shape of any kind, but you have an experience with me. So the nations themselves that are under the idea of Christianity or being saved are going to come to the Most High in the last days, as we see in Jeremiah, same book. Chapter number 16, and he's gonna tell us something that's going to blow your mind. Okay. Jeremiah chapter number 16, verse number 19 says that he says 16, 19, our ancestors, this is the nations, it says, Yahweh, my strength, my fortress, my in my time of trouble, the nations will come to you from the ends of the earth, saying, Our ancestors inherited nothing but lies, futile idols, completely useless. The question is, is can a man can a person, a human, make himself gods? In fact, they're no gods at all. Verse number 21, concluding verse. Therefore, I will make them know once and for all, I will make them know my power and my might, and then they will know that my name is Yahweh. Yod Hei Wide. So the nations don't know him, they don't know his name. And I'm and so since they've been given Christianity and they've been given in the New Testament, the New Testament doesn't have Yahweh's name mentioned not one time. The prop the disciples never mention his name, Paul never mentioned his name, Titus, Peter, nobody. Christ Himself has not even mentioned the most high name. So why is it that the nations are coming to him in the final days to say that we've inherited nothing but lies? And now he says, Then you're gonna finally know once and for all what my name is. It's because Yahweh's name has not been proclaimed by which you would say the people who believe that they're in a covenant with the most high. Because if they were in a covenant with him, then things would be better. The children of Israel and covenant, they would not be scattered, they would not, you know, be imprisoned, they would not be. Uh, you know, number one in heart disease, they wouldn't be sick, they would be in their own land, they would be in the inheritance of their fathers, and they would grow and they would flourish and they would multiply. But we don't see that. So again, the question would be is what is the efficacy and what is the purpose of a Messiah that has not actually saved these people from literally anything because they still sin, and we know the wages of sin, as you said, is death. So the evidence of someone dying is proof that they still have sin. Now, I don't stand here today and tell you that I don't have any sin. I know that I do, I make mistakes. My mistakes are not delivered. My mistakes are not delivered, and there's several different layers of what you would call how to sin. So being one of the children of Israel, just by simply being out of your land and being somewhere, you know, that you don't supposed to be, according to what he's written about us, says that you're already unclean. And that right there means that you have sinned. Like a woman who just had a child, she has to bring a sin offering just because she had a baby or she's on her menstrual cycle. So the same thing. So purity is number is huge with the most high. Okay. So again, if he is the one who died for the children of Israel, right? Because he said, I've I didn't come only for the lost sheep of Israel, then why is the nation of Israel at the time that he came, going back to the prophet, the prophecy that they like to ascribe to him in Jeremiah 23, that says that the branch in which and let me just quote it. 23 in Jeremiah and 5 says this. He will do what is just and right in the land, and in his days, Yehuda will be saved. This is chapter number 23 of the book of Jeremiah, verse number five. In his days, Judah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety, and the name given to him will be Yahweh the Canaan, meaning Yahweh is our righteousness. So, according to this prophecy, it says that this individual, this branch that's coming out of David, which Christ claims to be, that he will reign as king and will succeed, and he's going to do what is just and right when he's a king in the land of Israel, and in his days, Judah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety. And we know on historical information that when Christ was here, he never reigned, and he never sat upon the throne of David, and he never ruled in the land of Israel, and in his day, Judah was never saved, they were under Roman occupation, and the nation of Israel, Israel itself, was never living in safety because they were scattered all over the uh into these different nations. So you cannot apply that prophecy to him there because that wasn't fulfilled.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:09

I I I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:11

Right. So if that's not fulfilled, we can't ascribe that prophecy to him.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:14

See? Well, I mean that's but you can't ascribe it to him if it hasn't happened yet. If that part hasn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:20

Yeah, it hasn't happened to it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:21

Because that's not to happen to the second comer.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:24

Right. So what the the the purpose is, is going by the rules of prophecy, the most high says, they said, How do you know that we spoke this word? And he said, Only if it would come to pass.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:35

So if we have exactly, but just because it hasn't come to pass in your time, doesn't mean I mean, if that's the case, then you can't believe anything that happened before now because you weren't there to see it to come to pass.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:47

Exactly. So what we do have, this I'm glad you said that, because that's 100% accurate. What we do have is this he says, in the days that I come to you in Deuteronomy 30, when you the blessing and the curses come upon you in the lands of your enemies, you're gonna start thinking about what's happened to you, just like what King Shalomo said in his prayer, whether they take them captive to a land that's far away, they're gonna come to their senses and they're gonna say that we were wicked, we behaved wickedly, and we're asking for your forgiveness, and we're turning back to the most high, and we're being blessed.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:19

That's right. But that's right. He's talking to the children of Israel, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:22

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:23

Okay, and that's what he's talking about, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:26

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:29

So that's what we're so that's who so that's who that's that's who that applies to, though. Yes, so that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:35

So how does the children of Israel fit into the narrative of or trying to apply the I mean, I don't I don't know, I don't know that you would, depending on what uh what angle you're coming from. I mean, because if you don't believe there is a sacrifice necessary, then you won't believe a sacrifice was made. And so that's you know, that's kind of common, I I guess the common th uh thread thought, I would think. Um if if you don't if you don't see that there's a necessity for forgiveness, you won't ask for it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:07

No, but they did ask for it, right? I mean I mean to cut you off. They did ask, he said when they're in the lands of their enemies, they are going to ask you to forgive them. Right. And there's no requirement for sacrifice.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:18

So again, I I said that to say, I said what I said to say is is that that's talking about the children of Israel. Um, the average Christian wouldn't claim to be uh one of the children of Israel.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:33

So, what are the lies that they've inherited? What do you mean? So in Jeremiah, it says the nations are gonna come to you in those days, and they're gonna say, Our ancestors inherited nothing but lies and feudal idols, and they're gonna call upon Yahweh's name. He said, Then I'm gonna finally let them know once and for all that my name is Yo He Wai. Right? So obviously they don't know him because he said they're gonna know my power, my strength, my might, and then they're finally going to know my name. Right, just like Pharaoh didn't know his name.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:09

The book, the book of John, uh the 17th chapter. Yes, Jesus, Jesus says to his father, he says, Um, Father, restore unto me the glory that I shared with you from the beginning. Yes, and um, and he talked about, I think, in the second, maybe the second or third verse, he talks about how uh it is the will of the father that they know him, yes, the one true God, yes, and Jesus whom he sent. Yes, and so um, and so I I reference that to say that we know the father through the son.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:47

Okay, so that's a good point because that was his prayer, and he said four times, four times in that prayer, because that was a prayer he's making, in verse number six of 17, he says, I made your name known to the people that you gave me. Okay, so if he made his name known to them, which what is his name? What's the name of his the God that he's talking about, or his father? What's his father's name?

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:16

Uh well he always referred to him as his father.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:20

Yeah, so did he ever tell them, his disciples, his name?

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:25

Well, I think I think that you're taking a figurative, a figurative statement and uh and trying to make it a literal one.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:36

No, it's not it's not it's not figurative. If you think about it, he It is.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:40

I mean, because listen, hold on, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you why I say so. I'll give you an example. Um if I send my son to my hometown, which is Chicago, and I tell him to go make my name known, that means to go and represent my name. It doesn't necessarily mean go tell people my name.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:04

And so um I think that that is a a figurative statement when he when it's saying, make my name known, I made your name known. Okay he made it clear that he was speaking the words that his father spoke, and he was doing what he saw his father do. And so uh he was making his, he was representing his father.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:29

Okay, so again, when we look at the most high revealing his name, right? So he told the children of Israel that Moses says, Well, the children of Israel are going to ask me what is his name, what should I tell? Remember? And he said, Tell them, Aye, Asherah, Ayeh, meaning I am that I am, and that is a verb tense, that's not his name. And then he follows up and said, This is my name. And he proclaims his name to Moshe to speak to the children of Israel, which is Yod He Wahe, and he said, This was going to be my an eternal name. This is the name that you'll always know me by, right? So when you go and you play it forward, and of course, in chapter number 60, he says, Your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, did not know me by this name. They don't know, they've never known me by this name. This is the name that's I want to reveal to you. So he revealed his name to them, and it's an eternal name. So by time, it's a new test. And on that day, Yahweh will be the only one, and his name will be the only name. So, what other name does the children of Israel supposed to know? There's no mention of Yeshua, Yeshua, Jehosha, none of that. Only Yah's name. That's the only name. And that's the name in Jeremiah chapter number 25. Is the Most High said, Your ancestors did everything they could to cause you to forget my name. So we don't see a proclamation or proclaiming of Yahweh's name nowhere in the New Testament literature that's given to the churches. We don't see his name ever mentioned by the disciples, we don't see his name ever being mentioned by the apostles, we don't see his name mentioned by nobody. Christ himself has never mentioned his name, not one single time. So if he is to give praise and honor, like we have in the book of Psalms, the only name that's ever receiving praise is Yod He Waihe. Matter of fact, Pharaoh said, Most high told Pharaoh, the only reason why I'm allowing you to stay alive and haven't killed you, is because I want you to proclaim my name.

SPEAKER_05: 1:13:22

So so question. So Genesis chapter 19, well, chapter 18. Who is Yahweh that is standing in front of Ebola He? Who is uh in Genesis chapter 19? Who is Yahweh that's standing on earth, that's raining down fire from Yahweh in heaven?

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:45

That's the representative which you would call the Moloch of Yahweh. He's a representative of the most high. Because the most high says Yeah, I know you're laughing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:13:54

So that'll so that'll so wait a minute. So he can come to bring down fire. Well, he can't come to uh do nothing else.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:10

No, that's that's not what I'm suggesting at all. What I'm suggesting is um when you look at even the one who was in the fire, right? In the bush in the fire, and it was speaking out of the fire, or the one who was speaking to um Abraham out when he was about to kill the boy. Um the most high used his Moloch to speak to him, right? And you see that the most made it clear to Moses, right? So one of the things that we understand in the Torah is that the most high has said that no man has ever seen my face in lit. Right? So he's not changing. Matter of fact, he said when I was speaking on the from the mountain, we they were given instructions that you didn't see any shape.

SPEAKER_05: 1:14:54

No man has ever but they but but they saw what the people saw his backside, described this described his backside and said that the people saw it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:05

No, no, what it was is most high has said that you have never seen and lived. There's no man that could ever see me and live. This is what he said.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:15

Yeah, no, but no one, no one would be able to see him in his pure no one, one yeah, but they could see a they definitely could see a representative.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:25

Well, they would see a Moloch of Yahweh, right? So it's a Moloch, a messenger of the Most High that He would send to to speak as his representative, his messenger. He will never, no one can ever see the most high. Now, there's times where you see a vision where you know Isaiah, he had a vision, he said, I I saw the king.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:45

Well, well, I mean, and even even Daniel said that he saw the ancient of days, yeah, sitting on the throne sitting on the throne.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:53

So yeah, yeah, in a vision, yeah. So he he allows them to be able to have some type of interaction with him on that level when they're in a vision, but not physically, right? So physical representation. So he tells the children of Israel and he warns them in the book of Deuteronomy that when I came and showed the most high showed himself on the mountain in the fire, he said, You saw no shape, all you heard was a voice. So you're not supposed to make any representation of anything, a man, a woman, nothing. Right? So the most high is not a human being, and and he doesn't get tired, and he's never he will never show himself as a man, he will never go to sleep, he will never get hungry, he will never call he will never be powerless, he will never come from his throne, he's a king, so he's not going to do that. He has messengers that he sends on his behalf to execute his judgment. So he sits upon the circle of the whole earth, so he's not you know, when it talks about him going and go out to battle, right? And so, and then Moses says, Rise up, Yahweh, and go defeat your enemies. He's not literally telling him to go rise up. Mosai is not leaving his position. You see that in Ezekiel, he's sitting upon the throne, right? So okay, so the bottom line is this going back to the initial part in the prophecy of Zechariah 14, there is no mention of anyone. Isaiah chapter number two. There in a future prophecy of the whole world learning Torah, there is no mention of anyone else but Yahweh. There's no one, there is no He mentioned, there is no other one, there is no one. I am alone, there is no Savior, even while you're in your exile, there will be no Savior. There's nobody's gonna save you out of my hand. That's what it is. So I get why people want to, you know, like you said, people don't want to, you know, fiercely die. They don't want the second death, right? They know they're gonna get the first one, but then always kind of direct people back to First Corinthians chapter number 15 and ask the question has man been able to, what man since the resurrection of Christ, what person hasn't died? And the answer to that is nobody, everyone has died. My mother just died five years ago. So people are still dying, they've been dying for thousands of years. So what so what did he save them from? If the sting of death is if the if the sting of sin is death, right? That song of oh death where's your sting, oh grave where's your victory, has not been sung. Because people are still dying and people are still being put into the grave. Therefore, they're still feeling the sting of death. So did he defeat the devil? Did he did he defeat the power of death? Maybe for himself, but not for others. That was that's my contention. Because it clearly says in the Corinthians that that song has not been sung yet. Oh death, where's your sing? Oh grave, where's your victory? It says when he comes back, then that's when he's people are gonna be able to sing that song. So no one has actually really truly achieved what you would say salvation.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:27

I mean, I think I think that that that may very well be subjective though. Um because it depends on on what you think salvation is.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:36

Well, what do you think it is?

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:39

Uh I think it is as the scripture says.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:41

And let's define it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:43

Let's what is what is um it is the the freedom of of of the second death. Every everything as human is gonna experience the first death. It's been appointed to us. So that's something that we're gonna taste uh regardless.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:02

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:20:02

So okay, so in the But it's the second, it's the second death that I'm I'm concerned about.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:09

Okay. So when I get the second death come, that's that's what I'm gonna ask.

SPEAKER_05: 1:20:14

Well, for those for those who who go to to hell, Hades, however you want to call it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then uh those will experience that is that is the second death.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:29

Okay. So what I'm saying is in in my understanding to give you some background on why I say what is salvation, my understanding of salvation is found in the book of Exodus for the children of Israel in chapter number 14. Moses tells the children of Israel, today you're going to see the salvation of Yahweh. According to the Most High's definition of salvation, first mention of salvation, the actual word of salvation, Yeshua, is mentioned by them being delivered to be set free from their enemy, and not to be destroyed, their enemy to be destroyed.

SPEAKER_05: 1:21:05

Yes, but the great the the greatest enemy that mankind has is sin.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 1:21:11

It is the thing that keeps us from the most high. It is sin.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:14

Well, uh, okay, so let's deal with that. So I the gr I thought you were gonna say the greatest enemy is death. Because that's what Corinthians says. Corinthians says the greatest enemy, the last enemy to be dealt with is death.

SPEAKER_05: 1:21:28

Yes, but death would not be an option unless it was worse, we're foreseeing at all. Think about this, uh that that Adam and Eve, the reason why they had to be kicked out of that garden, they had a they had a had access to be able to eat the tree of the tree of life, which actually added life to them, then they would have been stuck in their state of sin.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:53

Yeah, absolutely. I agree 100%, absolutely. Right. So, but the question is, would he did they die spiritly or would they or the process of the physical death? Yeah, I think it's a separation, right?

SPEAKER_05: 1:22:10

I think I think uh I think that there's a difference between the two. Both happened, just not at the same time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:16

Okay, so all right, so my understanding was he said that you know the tree that they ate of is the the eightha or the eighth seam of the tree of knowledge of Tove and Ra, which is good and evil. And then once they took and they ate of that, which the tree of course is a council, right? They didn't have any knowledge of good or evil. That was a tree of knowledge, right? And so they said the day that you eat this is the day you're gonna die, right? And what he's talking about is something they'd have no clue about, which is the process of their death was gonna come to them, not they didn't because they didn't die immediately. So we would take it and say, Oh, well, they spiritually died. Well, you can't have a body and a spirit at the same time and not experience the same thing. So what it was is you know, the body can't um can't, you know, fly around without having a vessel to be into, right? So he gives them the bodies, he places his spirit inside of them, their body begins the death, their souls are eternal. Okay, and I got a scripture for that that says that the most high says that the children of Israel, they're eternal, they're an eternal people, they they're never gonna die. So for us, looking for eternal life is not we've been told that we spiritually die, but the fact of the matter is is that according to what the most high said, if you do what I tell you, you get to live, and if you don't do what I'm telling you, you're going to die. So he you're right, he is talking about a death, right? Is that hey, you don't do what I'm saying, I'm gonna cut you off. You won't exist anymore. But his death is you will never be able to live again. You'll never be able to live again. I'm gonna cut you off from your people. You will not exist. I'm gonna blot your name out of the book of life. See, so we're an eternal people up to the point if we go against him, then he'll blot our name out of the book of life. See, there is a book of life. So that has nothing to do with the flesh. So you're right, there is a second death. Okay, but that second death is the finality of you. That means it's over for you, you don't get to live anymore. So the idea of salvation is being delivered, like in every time he has sent a savior, they were actually delivered. So if Christ delivered them, then tell me what did he deliver them from that is actual tangible that we can actually physically see.

SPEAKER_05: 1:24:51

Well, I mean, it doesn't have to be tangible in order to be profitable.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:55

All the other salvations were tangible. That's the first example of salvation. Again, it's where's he?

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:02

Man, nothing nothing you'll experience on the other side of this will be tangible. Well, who knows? And so well, well, we can we can be certain of that. How? We can be certain. We can we can be certain of that because because the object of this life is not what is tangible.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:21

Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:24

So tangibility, tangibility it it relates to materialism, and so uh that's it, it's an adamant object that you can uh have some sense experience that gives you a sense of comfort about what you think is supposed to happen.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:44

So what's the purpose of us being because we live we live in a spirit, we live in a spiritual world that's full of flesh. I mean, but but we don't we don't uh a hundred percent operate out of our flesh all of the time. So I said that to say that um I said that to say that we tend to to try to confuse some of the secular concepts from uh from those that are esoteric or otherwise looked at as spiritual. And we try to intertwine them very very rapidly and easily because we think it's supposed to look logical. And it's it it's not supposed to look logical. That's why the most high said that he was gonna use in several places that he was going to use the foolishness of this world to confound the lives. Because he was not gonna use things in the way that we thought that he would use them.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:51

So all the other ways that he dealt with with humankind in terms of because he does work in amazement and he does wonders, so you're very uh accurate about saying that he would he does things that you know it was unimaginable we would never think about. But the thing is is that he promises the children of Israel to be established back into their land and them and their children and also I don't think anybody argues that.

SPEAKER_05: 1:27:16

I think I think but but you gotta realize that you know, just as though in this day and time we have people uh who identify and those who don't. You know, that's a rich subject these days, right? On how people identify. Uh I identify with Christ. And so because I identify with Christ, uh what Christ said is applicable to me. Um and so I don't negate what came before it because I uh I understand that what I experienced in terms of the path that the Lord has laid me on is an extension of what it is that you believe. And but those things uh were always antithetical, which is why the scribes, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees were always seeming to be opposite of Jesus because their insights were different. Uh they were following a set of traditions that came from people before them, and it hadn't really been profitable to the people. But everything that Jesus, everything that Jesus taught was not, they you notice they never said that he was wrong about anything that he said in terms of his responses to the application of the law. They never told him that he was wrong about anything that he ever said. You you never see that happen in scripture. But what you do see, but what you do see is them always being at odds and them always making the reference that he wasn't following their traditions.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:54

I would agree to say that the method in which at that time when he was talking to them, I mean, there's different thoughts about how he was there to re-establish that, of course, they were basing the law based on traditions versus what the actual law says, right? So there's a law that he is that he cited that says if a man looks at a woman he commits adultery. Right? That is contradictive to what because he said, You've heard that it's been said, but I say unto you, well, what was he saying?

SPEAKER_05: 1:29:26

Well, there's a there's a distinction being made though, and because he's adding he's actually adding a weight to the law that goes beyond the physical, and and um he's challenging the spirit of the law by challenging the spirit with the law and not the flesh. Yeah, but maybe but because to say to say that that's that's opposite or it's antithetical of the meaning of it, he's trying to get us to comprehend that that the Lord is concerned with our frame of thought, not just our behavior.

unknown: 1:29:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:00

I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_05: 1:30:07

There's a trying to someone who has to take a leader. Following what he can do.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:29

Is it for all mankind, or is that just for the ones who have that proper problem period?

SPEAKER_05: 1:30:39

We have three dynamics of all of us and deal with lust.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:07

I was trying to forget at the fact that there's men who have to paint by standing with the creator without righteousness.

SPEAKER_05: 1:31:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:34

Abraham was righteous before he went into the before he went into the grave or before he was preaching.

SPEAKER_05: 1:31:56

Oh look forward to his coming.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:57

I'm just Noah. Noah was he was he was righteous and he was saying possible for man without the perfect and to be righteous. Examples.

SPEAKER_05: 1:32:16

We got Cope was examples of that pre the prayer and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So with man were they accepted by the Christian fulfillment of the promise. They believe it's a promise.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:44

So it was caused to believe, right? It's not that he himself, he was actually caused. The verb tends to change there's the most high caused him to believe. He has the question, well, how do I know that you're going to be able to do this? Right? You're going to give him my land, that you're saying, you're going to give me the sinus. How am I to know that the most high gave him, you know, the faith that he needed in order to trust him to what he was walking? So what we understand though, my point is that righteousness is found in man outside of believing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:33:16

I don't know about outside. The burial in the resurrection.

SPEAKER_02: 1:33:34

And what way that means the thing has in there. So that means it's not probably something about it. So it's it isn't just so what my point is that the men that I'm mentioning even like Caleb. Um in also to call finians. He was covenant for the most high of eternal because of his acts of righteousness. So men that are able to do these things prior to Christ were in a good standing. Um Shalom at one point was in a good standing. There are other kings who Hezekiah was in good standing. So we have some people who were able to achieve righteousness.

SPEAKER_05: 1:34:59

Righteous incarnate Christ. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:03

Right. So now that Christ has come, then it seems like all there's a blockage to righteousness outside of him. You can't achieve any righteousness on your own, but other men have done it in the past. Now, if you trust in him that he died for your wickedness, then you then can become righteous. The most high says that he's never allied with anybody that would kill the righteous. In chapter number 17, verse number 15. Again, he who justifies the wicked, and who condemns the righteous, both are alike an abomination to Yahweh. So if Yahweh, so according to what is written in the New Testament, Most High is responsible for condemning righteousness and justifying the wicked through the death of the innocent. Which he says he hates the setting of innocent bloods. I'm trying to reconcile why would the most high innocent blood? Why is the most high said, I'm not going to justify the wicked. Exodus chapter number 23, verse number seven. There in Proverbs, why the wisest king that ever lived, he who justifies the wicked and convince the righteous are both an abomination to the most high. So that suggests that the most high would commit an abomination, providing a sacrifice to innocent man. Having him take the place of a murderer, against the Torah, that says anyone who sheds the blood of man, his blood is supposed to be shed. Why would the most high do a sacrifice of a human being? He can clearly condemn the children of Israel for sacrificing his husband of God.