Episode 88: Charles Waters and Irene Latham

Charles Waters and Irene Latham join the show to discuss the new book of sports poems they have compiled in “For the Win: Poems Celebrating Phenomenal Athletes.” Aimed at children ages 7-11, the poems, written by a diverse group of poets, feature 20 contemporary athletes who have overcome obstacles, broken records, and inspired fans around the globe.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, welcome back to On the Ball, the podcast series from the Vanderbilt Sports Society initiative. I'm Andrew Marinist, and I am so excited to have Irene Latham and Charles Waters as our guest today. They are a dynamic duo, and I want to ask them a bit about all the projects that they've worked on together in the past, but they're here today to talk about uh their new uh book for the win, which is Poem Celebrating Phenomenal Athletes. Uh, they have selected um a really powerful, diverse group of poets uh to contribute to this volume. They've written poems themselves for it. And uh before we hit record here, I was just saying how much my son, who's who's 12 years old, um, is a target, is right in the heart of the target market for this book with um poems that really focus on a turning point or a challenging moment uh or a big success, just a moment in these athletes' lives, along with uh great color photography and and bios of the athletes and inspirational quotes. Uh it's a great uh coming together of uh you know sports and literacy, which is something that really matters to me a lot. So, Charles and Irene, thank you so much for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Thanks for having us. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

And okay, so I saw in the uh in the author bio, there's a great picture of you two together. Clearly, this is uh not just a working relationship, but like a great friendship that you all have. You call yourselves the INC construction company. Um start with you, Irene. Like, how did you guys uh meet each other? How did you become uh this this develop this partnership uh as authors?

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Wow, it's a great question. And I feel so lucky. Um Charles and I are constantly just like thinking, how did this happen to us? But um, it really is rooted in friendship. We um we got together on our first book, Can I Touch Your Hair? Poems of race, mistakes, and friendship. And we didn't really know each other that well at that point. We just kind of knew each other's work out in the kid little sphere of poetry. This is kind of a small, tight community. Um, but I'm I'm really kind of a solo person, you know. And this project came along from Learner and uh wonderful editor Carol Hims had the idea for this conversation about race and asked me, she knew that I had a lot of interest and um experience writing about race and asked me, would I be interested in this conversation and with whom would I like to have the conversation? And I just instantly thought of Charles. And there's so many reasons why, but the biggest reason is because Charles is a very kind person. And I thought this is someone that I think I could trust with this kind of conversation. And so I reached out to him and he said yes. And so we were off and running, and he can talk about our experience since then.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

All right, Charles, uh, she set it up for you. Talk about your experience since then. What is what has this partnership meant to you?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

You know, it's almost like um uh there there's almost like uh in in in both our lives, um we we can't imagine what life was like before we met each other and worked together. And it's been a it's been one of the galvanizing moments of my life, meeting Irene. I was struggling uh as a writer, like you do. Had a pile of manuscripts and weren't going anywhere, and I get this email and it's basically as Irene explained it, and and and I intuitively knew that if if we came through in the clutch with with a manuscript, it was gonna be accepted because it was the editor's idea. Usually you're going you're trying to submit things to an editor. This is different. So I knew the editor would be able to get it through acquisitions if it was good because it was their personal project. So it really became something of did I have the goods after all these years and all these rejections? And um to throw in a sports metaphor, I I felt I I went to the plate and I and I hit the ball very well. And it was an easy back and forth. Irene would send poems, I would respond to those poems with my own, then sh then I'd send new poems to her, and she responded, and we had a working manuscript that was completely different from the published book, but we had a working manuscript in six weeks. And that was enough to get it past acquisitions, and that was that would Can I Touch Your Hair became my first book. And so I owe my career in a lot of ways in in publishing to Irene and to Carol Hines at Learner. So that's that's how it came to be, and then I thought, boy, you know what, I'm really getting along well with this human being. Maybe we can work together again on something. And so that's what happened. It's been a a pretty easy back and forth. Um we've never had an argument, knock on wood. Um I'm I'm glad we came to this partnership as as grown folk. Because I think a lot of nonsense gets pushed away the older you get. And that's how it's come it it's came to be. I'm I'm I'm so grateful to Irene. And I'm grateful for the opportunity. All I needed was I I just needed a sliver of daylight, Andrew. In my life. I just I'll do the heavy lifting. I just need a sliver of daylight. I'll try to create that sliver of daylight, but sometimes you need that door cracked open just a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

And that was that was a case with uh finally becoming an author, and now also, besides an author, an anthologist as well.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

What a story. Um, and I've I know I've shared this with Charles before. Um, Irene, I didn't know if you were aware. Another project y'all worked on together, a dictionary for a better world, is something that has been a part of our athletic department here at Vanderbilt. My colleague Allison Wenzel um had read the book with one of her kids, um, a younger kid, and thought, you know, this is perfect for graduating college students as well. And so it was uh the book was given out for several years as a as a graduation gift for our student athletes at Vanderbilt at that commencement. And so uh that's how I first um came across your names. Um, all right, so to get back to before the win, um for each of you, I'm curious about the role of sports in your life growing up. It was I was interested in reading the um the brief bios of all the poets that contribute to this, that for a lot of them they did play sports growing up, you know, or they they they reference uh a team that they've followed. You know, um start with you, Irene. Uh you're a you're a poet, but was sports a part of your life growing up, uh whether as an athlete or as a fan of a particular team?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Well, it's a great question. Um I was never a sporty girl. And in fact, in all the bios, I think that the editor pointed out that I'm probably the only one who didn't have sport experience. So I don't like to sweat, I don't like to be dirty, you know, I'm just I, you know, that kind of thing. So I um but I've always followed athlete stories. And one of the things I love was the Olympics. So my siblings, I'm from a big family, five kids. We put on our own backyard Olympics almost every summer. And um synchronized swimming was my best sport. And me and my sister always loved doing these routines. Of course, that's not a sport in Olympics anymore. Um, but I I've admired um, you know, sports and athletes. Their journey is so similar to that of a writer. You know, we we we get our training, we have setbacks, we you know, have wonderful moments of achievement. There's what do you do after? You know, so I really relate to it in that respect and find great inspiration. But my personal experience with sports is very limited.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Backyard Olympics. I love it. Uh, how about you, Charles?

SPEAKER_02 8:11

No, sports is when I think about my childhood, it w it it I really just go to sports, uh, Andrew. I was a sports-obsessed human. That's all I cared about. And that's the only thing I read. And I was a struggling reader. Nothing interests me. I found books overwhelming. Thick books, all these lines, and I'm I'm like, what is this? What I'm wasting my time. I read seven days a week for many years the Philadelphia Inquir. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia, a town called Yaden. It's on the border of Southwest Philly. Tina Faye lives 15 minutes grew up 15 minutes from me. Will Smith grew up 15 minutes in the other direction, and Bradley Cooper grew up 30 minutes in another direction. Just to give you a just to give you an idea of where I grew up. And that's all I cared about was was reading the sports pages, reading sports magazines. To the point where my late father was like, I wish you would read other things. I'll never forget I said this to my dad. It's one of those things where I knew I was right, and I think dad knew that I was right, but he was my father, so he couldn't let me know I was right. I said, Dad, you should be happy I'm reading, period. And I and so that's what got me that's what got my juices flowing. Uh and also just reading about all sports. And then I started playing them in middle school and in high school. And uh I just thought this was to the point where, quick story, to the point where the Philadelphia 76ers played the Boston Celtics in 1985 to fight for first place in the Eastern Conference. The Sixers lost by about 20, because Larry Byrd went on one and was scoring one one basket after another. And I I this is how much I cared about sports. And this is this is actually a cautionary tale of caring too much. I started crying. I started crying that the Sixers lost by that much. I had so much invested by these people who weren't paying the bills in my family, who weren't driving me to and from places, who weren't putting a roof over my head and food on the table and clothes in my back. What did I why did I care so much? And so my mom sat me down and had a come to universe, or she would call it come to Jesus with me, and go, these people are not paying our bills. You should not be caring this much about a basketball game. And she was right. But that just showed you how much passion I had, how invested I was. It gave me sports gave me purpose. Watching it, playing it, reading about it. I learned about a lot of things in our world, Andrew, from sports. I learned about the Watts Riots in Los Angeles in the 60s because LA was burning when Sandy Koufax threw a perfect game. I learned that from sports. I didn't know what am I gonna mispronounce this a little bit, but I didn't know what amethropic lateral sclerosis was until in seventh grade and I read about Lou Gehrick. Uh I didn't know about the discrepancies that that uh which is why Title IX was created. I didn't know about any of that until I read about Billy Gene King beating Bobby Riggs in the 1973 Battle of the Sex. I knew about society and sports in a way that school would never have taught me. Or if they did, I wouldn't have paid attention because I didn't care. You have to find an entry point with a kid. See what they're interested in and go off that, maybe instead of trying to get them to think your way. This is just my opinion growing up. This is what I thought as a kid. So this is this is how much it meant to me. And then when you get older, you know, your your tastes change and you may still love sports, but there's all these other things in the world that you're now more interested in. But I n Andrew, I never forgot as I got older, I wish there was a book that I could have connected to when I was a kid. Uh about sports. Um and wouldn't it be great when I think as an adult if it was something like children's poetry? Which I think is one of the most important genres we have in the world in in terms of literacy. And so that's how, you know, I just always kept that in in my head about sports. And um, you know, you know, the lathem to the rescue, because I had this idea, and she she had the secret sauce into making this book that was kind of like a real passion project of mine, which then became a passion project of hers. But it she made it work through that uh incredible brain she has in terms of creating something that I that I know uh children like me back then would have read, um and then hopefully children of today will read now, which is for the win.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Well, there's a lot I can relate to in what you just mentioned. Um, for me, sports and reading and writing were always connected as a kid. Uh my parents say I learned how to read by reading the back of baseball carts. Uh I was reading Sports Illustrated every week, um, reading the Washington Post sports section growing up in DC. And speaking of crying because of sports in Philadelphia, I was a Georgetown fan growing up. And when Villanova beat Georgetown in 1985 because Harold Benson never missed a shot. I cried uh after that game.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

That's right. That was a great moment in my, I mean, a bad moment for you, but a great moment in my childhood because everybody thought Georgetown was going to win by about a hundred. Right. You're right. They the the the Villanova set the record, which still stands, I believe, for the highest field goal percentage in the national championship game. They shot like over 70 percent. Yeah, they just daddy. You know, they Irene, they would not miss. It was wild. Where I we saw the whole my whole family saw. I saw my father, and we were like, they're not missing. How is this happening? No, nobody's missing. I what is going on? Jump shots, layups, double pumping, reverse uh layups, madness, and uh they won. And it's one of the great upsets in championship history. Uh uh up there with the one I think is the most the biggest upset in championship history was was 1983 North Carolina over Houston.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Well you can see how um Charles's enthusiasm for sports carries the day. It's like I may not have these stories like from childhood, but anytime Charles talks about sports, it is very it's impossible to not get caught up in that excitement.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yeah, you can feel the passion. And so Charles mentioned the importance of poetry uh for children's literacy. I wanted to ask a little bit more about that before we really dive into uh the poetry in this book specifically. But what are your thoughts on that, Irene? Why is poetry so important uh for kids?

SPEAKER_00 15:24

You know, I think poetry is you know often overlooked uh mainly because a lot of the poetry that kids are exposed to is an old style of poetry and it can be laborious, it can be difficult. But the great things about poetry, particularly contemporary poetry, it's short. I mean, in the in just a matter of less than a minute, you can just get a kick in the stomach as far as how something feels. Um, language, playing with language, the word play. It's just a way to engage readers who, like Charles was describing himself as a kid, you know, would wouldn't didn't care for books. It's the same kids who like graphic novels or verse novels, also, anything that is a kind of a different entry point. I think poetry is really a great way to reach those kids. And um, I personally love my favorite, favorite thing about poetry is the element of surprise and how it can change how you think about the world. Um there's an image or there's a word choice or something that just kind of like it takes the top off of your head, like the Emily Dickinson line. And that's kind of what I thrive on as a reader of poetry and what I'm kind of hoping for when we get those poems in the door. We want something that's gonna be really um a stunner. I think it was J. Patrick Lewis who said he wants a poem that's a stunner, and we that's what we want when we when we are reviewing submissions, and we want that uh from our own writing as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

What's your experience been that with that, Charles, in in connecting kids, young readers, to your own poetry or just the process of of writing? And what why did you say that poetry is so important uh for kids?

SPEAKER_02 17:00

For for all the reasons Irene just said, Andrew, there's a there's when there's something to what what poetry does is it makes the ordinary extraordinary. And when that happens, when a kid is reading about, let's say a kid is a dog lover, and there there's a poem, um there's a poem by I believe Judith Viorst uh about a dog sleeping next to a kid and the kid hearing their doggy snore. That's so uh relatable to to a kid. And the kids can relate to people who are bullies or they can relate to the changes that are happening in the world with them. There's a great book called Walking on the Boundaries of Change by Sarah Hobrook, who's for middle, middle grade. Um that that talks about these uh ordinary issues but makes them extraordinary because a kid feels seen. And they're like, oh my goodness. Or they may see something that they can relate to, but they never saw it from uh a different perspective. And like Irene said, you just feel like you know, you just get this feeling in you that you you feel like you can fly. And that that's a to to that's exciting. It's like you you're being seen, somebody understands you, somebody's thinking kind of the same thoughts you are, and you feel like you have a friend. And I know that saying's corny and it's very soapboxy, but books are can be you're like your friend. You may not have a friend in the world, but you got this story, you got this book, this character that you love, and that means something to you. And that that can carry you a long way. And all these genres, like Irene said, like graphic novels. I think graphic novels are outstanding. I'm all about getting kids to read. You know, if it's graphic novels, if it's verse novels, if it's manga, it doesn't matter. You know, just the what's gonna happen is usually, if I'm going by my own the experience of my own life, Andrew, is that your taste will change or they'll mature, they'll mutate, and you'll start liking other things as well. It kind of reading broadens your horizons. And you're reading about things that and you're also reading about things that uh people that may live in a different part of the world, something that you would think on the surface is completely opposite of your life, but uh there's a universe universality in the in the in the writing where you're like, oh my goodness, that that that may be it may be from somebody in Australia on the other side of the planet, but what they're saying in this poem or in the story feels like it's it's happening to me. And that's the kind of connectivity we need as a society.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Well, you talk about the the sort of the transcendent power of reading and writing, but also of sports. And you know, the the book opens with a quote from Nelson Mandela says, Sport has the power to change the world, has the power to inspire, it has the power to unite people in a way that little else does. And so I was just curious about the um sort of the sensibility or the ethos that you brought to this book and what you um types of stories that you were looking to have told, types of athletes to be featured, the types of poets uh to contribute to the book. What was there an overall um uh sensibility that you wanted this this project to convey, Irene?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yeah, um, you know, Charles and I, our work started with Can I Touch Your Hair? So we were, you know, really taking on right away addressing race and how we have connections and difficulties based on race. So looking at that lens of race. So it was really it's been important to us in our work to um include diversity in all sorts of ways. So we wanted to have diverse sports, diverse athletes, diverse poets. We wanted this book to kind of show the wide world of sports, you know, like this, there's something for everyone. Just like with poetry, there's something for everyone. In sports, there's something for everyone as well. So I think that was really a guiding light for us and a challenge for us, frankly, because we were, you know, looking for um poets who were willing to write and interested and enthusiastic about um particular athletes. We didn't want it just to be, we wanted somebody who cared about Mookie Bets. You know, we didn't want it just to be some some random thing. So, and it was just amazing to us when we sent out invitations to poets, not really knowing that um, you know, who they enjoyed as sports and how often it hit. Like they we we get this story back, like, oh my gosh, that was my dad's favorite, and we watched, you know, whatever. You know, so um there's really so Much just serendipity and wonderful, just uh mojo that happens in these projects with the anthologies, and um and it really boils down to allowing and um embracing a lot of different voices. And these were poets who are not as well known as many other poets in our poetry sphere, also important to us to bring in other voices, as many people we want to bring as many people to the table as we can. So I would just say diversity on all levels.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

And for Charles for people who haven't seen uh the book, can you give us a sense of uh some of the athletes that are are featured, some of the poets that have contributed, the different styles of poetry uh that are conveyed uh through the book?

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Um I can do that. I do want to say that I uh Andrew that Irene came up with an excellent idea. Uh when Irene Irene's idea was to have a questionnaire to as many of our poetry pals and then have that spread out to maybe people they knew. And the qu what there were these questions in the questionnaire, one of them was Did you play sports? What sports did you like? Uh and uh from the questionnaire, we were able to really help put the book together. Because we were trying to find, I mean, you're gonna assign somebody you want to assign somebody something with something as specific as sports and specific athlete and and part of their journey without them at least having a working knowledge of a sport or sports in general. So from that, and I'll give you an example, um, and this is what we were going for to answer your question. Uh one of one of my favorite poems in the book is The Rise of Roman Reigns, written by Edna Cabcabin Moran. Uh and Edna uh has extended now Roman Reigns, by the way, I was a professional wrestling fan of the highest order growing up. Um and it was important I Irene and Irene thank goodness agree with this. It was important for me to have a professional wrestler in that book. Because I would have read that poem in two seconds as a kid. I would have run to that, maybe the first poem I'd read. So we have um Roman Reigns. Roman Reigns is Samoan, and he's Italian. We were trying to figure out where is there somebody with uh uh a knowledge of Samoan culture? Is there somebody who played sports? And we went to the questionnaire, we saw Edna's submission. Edna is not Samoan, but she has extensive dance experience and extensive knowledge of Hawaiian culture. And we thought Samoan culture, Hawaiian culture, they're different, but they park in the same garage in a lot of areas. And we thought maybe we'll have Edna, let's see if if Edna would be interested. Donnie, she wrote she wrote one of my favorite poems in the book. I I love that poem. And reading about these athletes, you know, Roman Reigns, had he not gotten injured, could have been an NFL player. He was he was all all ACC defensive tackle for Georgia Tech. And then he got injured after after his collegian career. And he is the third of seven generations in counting of a professional wrestling dynasty out of Hawaii. So it's this this story of pivoting, going into the family business, succeeding. And I just I I just thought, you know, that's that's a great story that maybe a lot of people don't know about Roman Reigns. And those are the kind of stories that Irene and I worked extremely hard on trying to find with these with these athletes. Because the last thing in writing or in books you want are cliches. Cliche. And now as a writer, you know that all too well, Andrew. The last thing you want is cliched writing. You want to put your own spin on it or take take on a topic from a a different angle, tell it slant to quote Emily Dickinson, one of Irene I's favorite poem poets, because we keep meant the second time we Emily Dickinson's been mentioned. You want to tell it slant. So that was our goal with all these athletes in the book. You may know LeBron James, who doesn't know he's one of the most famous people on earth, but you didn't know that he could have been an NFL player. He was a he was his his his his uh youth team went undefeated, they were running rampant over everybody, but pivoted to basketball. It's like Roman Reigns did pivoting to the the the sport that they're most known for. Um so that was that was important to us. A lot of people know Naomi Osaka, the tennis player, but let's dive into something that's not talked about at least when we were all growing up, which is mental health. Um so many athletes suffered in silence when we were growing up, or acted out on this depression and in self-destructive ways, and here is Naomi Osaka being transparent about it. And just just from reading her story and knowing the way the world works as a middle-aged person, she helped a lot of lives in being that transparent. So that's that's we we want to go at on it, we want to go at sports in that way. Yes, she's a Grand Slam tennis star. Yes, she she's doing this while being a mom, which is incredible, but she's also a human being who struggles like we all do. So that was the goal of this this this was the goal of the book. It it transformed in the way that I thought of in 2007. My my original idea in 2007 was all Will Chamberlain scoring 100 points, Gretzky setting the scoring record, assist record or scoring record in the 1981 or 82 season. It was just about the wins. But the way it morphed, thanks to Irene, uh and in conjunction with Irene and talking with her, it became deeper. So the the project was really rating waiting for uh the the great brain of the lathem to kind of like help help shape it.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

And and we had other helpers as well. I I'd want to mention John Fishman, you know, one of the challenges we had when we decided to to transform this project into contemporary athletes was you know, you kind of don't know who's you need to know who's on the rise, who's still gonna be around, who's thinking retirement. You know, we wanted them all to be still working when the book came out, and they were, they are still currently. Um, but John Fishman is um a sports writer uh and learner, and he really helped us kind of, he has this vision for uh who's who those people are. And so he gave us this giant list, and we went through and made our selections and we added our own people as well. Um, you know, a proper pass on that she was one that um we nobody thought of, you know, that Charles found. And so anyway, we wanted this blend of well-known people and lesser-known people, again with the diversity and also focusing on moments in the life of an athlete because it isn't just about the wins. And I think I as a writer, um, I get the most inspiration from hearing the setbacks, you know, that's where I want to hear about how did they fumble and how did they come back from it, you know? And also, um, and I know this has come up in your work, Andrew. Um, what do they do after? And so like Lionel Messi with this foundation, you know, how how do you translate this worldwide stardom into something that benefits humanity? And many athletes do that. And I think it's wonderful for us to recognize that this place of power where they are, that so many of them do translate that into something that's good for all of us. So um, we wanted to show that as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Yeah. Okay, so I want to talk about um the poems that each of you uh wrote for this book. Um, Irene, Nelly Corda, the golfer, um, and you took a moment. I mean, of all the ways to write about Nelly Corda, you found a really interesting approach to how she stays balanced. Charles mentioned mental health, you know, the um just some time away uh from the sport. How did you how did you come to choose her? And how did you uh I don't want to give it away, I'll let you tell the story, but like how did you choose to tell uh Nillie Corta's story? What is what does that say about um change that athletes are under?

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Okay. So um yeah, and our connections are so personal to our own lives, just that we bring so much to our own writing and and you you reveal so much about yourself as a writer. So my husband is um an avid golfer. He loves to golf. So I know a lot about golf just because I live with someone who loves to golf and loves to watch golf. So the masters this weekend, you know, anyway. Um, but Nellie Corda is a favorite of mine, but it's her relationship with her sister. She comes from this family of all the kids are phenomenal athletes and the parents too, and they really give one another support. And so I wanted, and I have a sister whom is is my number one supporter as well. So I wanted to find a story that somehow recognized the impact of family. I mean, so many of these athletes couldn't do what they do without that family support, the parent who takes them, you know, Eileen Goo's mother who took her all the miles to, you know, to get to her practice. And and Nellie Corda, you know, she grew up in this family where athletes, athletics is a huge part of it. But how do you stay centered and how do you stay connected? And to me, I want kids to know that that's what family is for, you know, that remember to lean on your family, remember to be that family, member who can be leaned upon. And that's kind of what my poem about Nellie Corda taking the day off is about, reconnecting, getting away from that sports, you know, competitive part and remind remembering where your strength comes from is from those relationships, those love and connection of family.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Yeah, loved that, loved that. And Charles, yours, uh Jalen Hurts. I remember the national championship game that that he's pulled from. And I remember him handling it with such class uh at the time and Grace. And that wasn't the end of his story, you know, which uh I'm sure was uh the reason to write about this moment in his life is he got back up. Um how did you choose uh Jalen Hurts? And um what were you uh attempting to tell kids uh through the way you told his story in your poem?

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Well, on that list that John Fishman from Lerner sent us was was Jalen Hurts. And this is the advantage of being one of the anthologists when you're in control of the project. I saw Jalen Hurts's name, and I said to Irene, and I quote, Oh, I'm writing about Jalen Hurts. You know, being being the fact he's a quarterback for the Philadelphia Eagles, that means something to me. We wouldn't eat as a family. We ate as a family around Eagles games on Sunday. That was the George Waters Jr., my father's edict in the family. Uh we weren't sitting down for Sunday dinner. We always made sure we sat down for dinner together, especially on Sundays. Not around Eagles, it wouldn't be during the Eagles game, I can tell you that. So I uh that's how much it means to me and my family. So I saw that name, I was like, well, I'm writing that. That one's mine. And uh it wasn't until Andrew I started doing research and trying to find the moment in Jalen Hurts' life that galvanized him, where I during the research saw the national championship game where he got benched after only losing two games in two years, and and Coach Saban uh benched him and how he handled it I thought showed a maturity far beyond his age. And that's from the way he was raised. That's from his mother and father's uh teachings. And that really I thought you know, I I I Irene and I uh talk about this a lot in in and in our writing when we write books and also when we anthologize books was kids would love that. That's something we always we say to each other kids would love this, kids would love this. So kids need to know about those kind of setbacks. National championship game, how many millions of people are watching you lose your your your position uh as quarterback? And when they won, he he ran on the field as happy as can be, and he didn't make a fuss, and he cheered on his uh the person who backed him up, who then led him to the game, who was Tua. And I I'm unable to pronounce his last name. I'm not gonna butcher that beautiful name. Um so his quote, Irene and I are big on quotes, Andrew, in in our books. We love quotes. And his quote was something like that that moment made me who I am, I wouldn't change it for the world. And in in my humble opinion, he hasn't won a court, he hasn't won the Super Bowl without that without that setback. Because those those setbacks, if you play them right, strengthen you. They strengthen all of us. If we if if if we can give ourselves the grace within ourselves to not get too down and not be too hard on ourselves. So once I read that, I was Irene, I was Irene, I think this is this is the moment. You know, we went that we were that specific, Andrew, and that careful with every athlete we w going down that list and trying to find that moment. Irene calls it exploding the moment in in in writing. Where you read something, it's like boom, okay, there it is. It's like when you read a great poem. You know, you just feel you know, you get um you almost feel feel a chill. That's we were going for and finding these moments with easy with all 20 of these athletes, one by one. So that's how the Hertz, the Hertz poem came about.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Well, I want to show for those who are watching this podcast the cover of the book. Again, you guys were nice enough to send an advanced uh galley copy of it. The book came out in March. I know uh for both of you, getting out there and being around kids and in schools and classrooms is an important part of what you do for people who are interested in um getting in touch with you, uh bringing the book into their communities, buying it for their kids. Like, where do they find you? Um and uh what is like your interest in getting out there and getting to classrooms or to uh uh book festivals or in front in front of the readers. And I I always feel like if you're gonna write for kids, you need to be around kids, you know, and show them that you are a regular person, like they can they can do what you can what you're doing, you know, and to uh show up at a school and the kids that are the ones that show that love the library or who love reading, all of a sudden it's kind of like that's their day. You know, the athletes are celebrated all the time, but the readers aren't always celebrated in schools. And so I think it's important to to be there and to celebrate their love of reading. It's a long question, but how do people find you? And uh what is your interest in getting out there and meeting kids and being in schools? Irene. Irene, I'll start with you.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Okay, um, so you can find me Irenelathan.com, my website, there's all sorts of free poems, hundreds of free poems on there. I've got YouTube videos for writers. Um, I have I've done my time um with school visits. I do a very limited amount of school visits at this time. Uh but it's you usually with Charles that I will get out of my get out of my pajamas these days. And um Charles does a ton of work. Um uh and I we and of course we do stuff together, book festivals, and we love giving keynotes and talking to different groups. Um but I'm I'm much more I'm less likely to leave my house than Charles's. So that's great.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

How about you, Charles? I'm just your regular itinerant poet, you know. Let me know and I'll go there. Uh Irene and I are we have a number of of of things uh cooking in in different parts of the country with with promoting for the win uh coming up. You can find me at Charles Waterspoetry.com and uh click on school visits. I have a booking agent, and that's on the website, Sarah DeVore at How Now Booking, and you reach out to Sarah and I and I will do I will do those those school visits and uh I do I do author presentations, I do workshops and writing, I do workshops and poetry performance. Also on my website, I have a YouTube channel where I perform over a hundred and thirty of my own poems and poetry webisodes, some of them edited by Irene's uh uh Uber talented son, Eric. Um, and Irene also has a son named Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

I do, yeah. Love that name.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

And and Andrew has a son named Charles, so this is just one of the things. Yeah, there you go. It's all this is all everything's everything's flowing, you know. The universe is on our side. Um so all that information is is available there uh for you. And um Irene and I, uh, because Irene will do virtual visits.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

There we are.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Yes, she will do virtual visits. Um I do virtual and in person, and Irene and I this is important for the the the listeners here on the podcast. Our books range now. Our INC construction company books range now from pre-K to 16. So pre-K to senior year in college. We we've hit we we and that was organic. That we we span those those age groups. So there's something for everybody. And um it's really an honor to be here, and hopefully, um in the future, we we'd love to visit Vandy's campus and get that part there and meet those student athletes and get the the poetry in their their souls.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

We'd love to do it. And uh, also have this dream of of starting a sports book festival here in Nashville. So I'm glad to have you here for that as well.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Andrew, that sounds so exciting. Do it.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Well, again, congrats uh on this great book. Um, your partnership is uh inspiring. The work you do around race is so important. I think that using sports as an entry point to get kids interested in in reading and connecting sports and poetry is so important. So I'm a big fan here, and um I encourage everybody uh to pick up the book. Thanks again for joining the show.