Episode 91: Michael Husain

Filmmaker Michael Husain joins the show to talk about his incredible documentary, The Waiting Game. The film tells the little-known story of a renegade basketball league that inspired today's NBA – and the mostly Black players who have had to fight for decades for fair compensation and recognition. The ABA innovated pro basketball with the 3-point shot and slam dunk contest, and embraced Black culture in ways that the NBA had not yet. And despite the pioneering way the players of the ABA players played basketball, when the two leagues “merged” ABA players were forgotten in a business deal gone bad. The Waiting Game follows a dogged not-for-profit’s pursuit of benefits for former ABA players now struggling to survive. While the NBA generates $10+ billion a year, former ABA athletes struggle to buy life-saving medicines, avoid eviction, and worse. This documentary is about the fight to get them their due.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

And I'm really excited to have Michael listening to our guest today. Michael is a as you can see in his collection of a multi-award-winning uh filmmaker joining us, I believe, from Indianapolis. Is there any Michael? And um, you see the ABA basketball behind him that we're gonna talk about today is a terrific documentary that Michael has um produced and directed um on a sad legacy of the ABA. Uh there's such nostalgia around that league, and you know, just seeing that basketball, and sometimes there's more to the story. And so I want to learn about the the sort of the um the more to the story when it comes to the ABA with your film, The Waiting Game. Um, Michael, thanks for joining the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

It's my pleasure to be here, and I uh I love what you guys do there, so it's uh it's really an honor.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Oh, thank you. And and as we record this, you mentioned that tomorrow, which is May 21st, there will be a public uh discussion of the film and the issues that it raises. So be sure to share a link in the in the episode notes so people can access that. But uh, Michael, first of all, um for those who are unfamiliar uh with the film that you've made, uh can you give us the the boilerplate on uh you know what is the waiting game? Well, what's the subject that you dived into in this uh film?

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yeah, so you know, a lot of people do have a nostalgic uh vibe about the ABA, which was, if you're uh uninitiated, uh a rival league to the NBA from 1967 to 1966, so nine years. And uh and those were transformational years. Uh the um the ABA really kind of invented what we know is the modern game of basketball. Um so the the origin story, so much so to speak, of the NBA is less the NBA itself and more that red, white, and blue ball right there. Uh it's uh which was the iconic ball of the ABA. And uh by that I mean uh things that we kind of take for granted now. Um the pace of play, the athleticism that uh that defines the NBA. The three-point shot, right? Which is uh uh you know literally a game changer in terms of this of the strategy and the the types of players that uh that could play the game. You know, in the uh Steph Curry, you know, owes a lot to the ABA, for instance. Uh small guards who could bomb from deep. Those are ABA legacy guys, really. And uh um and also just the entertainment factor. Uh so it was uh they kind of really facilitated halftime shows and cheerleaders and player autonomy in terms of branding and fashion and things like that. Uh and and really uh the deep impact of black culture on on professional basketball. Uh lots of that was really facilitated and grown and driven by the ABA. So that's the debt that we owe the ABA. Uh and when the two leagues combined, it's often been called a merger, uh, but it really wasn't. Uh it was uh an expansion of four teams. So four teams that are currently in the NBA were ABA legacy teams: the Pacers, the Spurs, the Nuggets, and the Nets. Uh those were ABA teams. And um, you know, the players that came into the NBA through that expansion, most of them did okay. Um, some of them had played their prime years in the ABA and they had a couple years left and they played in the NBA. Others like Julius Irving, uh five years in the ABA and then 11 in the NBA. Uh and so uh, you know, he did really, really well and was obviously a transformational player. But uh there were a number of guys who either didn't make the transition into the NBA or who played just a couple of years. Um, and uh what happened to them afterwards, these foundational players, um, pioneer players, you could say, in terms of defining the league, uh they were they were told, and this is a time of um when the NBA players union and certainly the ABA Players Union did not have the stature, the clout, the power that they have now. Um so they were told by their representation such that it was, that uh that they had benefits of uh tenure from the years they had played in the ABA, um, and it's an expectation of retirement benefits, healthcare benefits, um, and and what happened in the in the decades after that, when you know, as Bob Netaleki put it, you know, uh, who was a I think eight or nine year ABA guy, never really made it in the NBA, um, that you know, called the NBA and said, Hey, how do I get my pension started? Um, the one that I was promised. And the NBA essentially said, You don't have a pension here. Uh, and so some guys fell on really, really hard times, very, very sad stories of you know, kind of homelessness and um inability to uh pay for critical medicine, uh, you know, just um lots of things that when you're older um, you know, start to become really, really important. And um and they just didn't have a leg to stand on. And so the waiting game is the story of uh an organization that was founded here in Indianapolis, a not-for-profit called the Dropping Dimes Foundation, which was really just trying to step into the void and help because the NBA had more or less said, we're not gonna help these guys. Um, we don't owe them anything, there's no legal basis for what you're talking about. Um and uh dropping dimes said, well, first of all, we're not sure about that. Um, maybe you do. And second of all, um, from a from a sort of moral um basic honor basis, then um we think that that these guys deserve much more respect than they're being given. And so they started off trying to help them financially, and then it turned out that one of the two founders of the Dropping Dimes uh Foundation was a mergers and acquisitions lawyer. And so he won he started looking into paperwork about this deep that defined what's been called the merger was this expansion. And uh the film really dives into um years of work by the Dropping Dimes Foundation to um try and help them from a legal and then also a moral basis. And uh um that's that's the that's the that's the heart of the story.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Yeah. So just for yourself as a filmmaker who has done projects that are unrelated to sports, um, in some cases, like what was it about this story that made you decide like this is something I want to uh you know spend years uh pursuing and and making?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yeah, it did take a couple of years to make the film. Uh it started off, you're right. I've made films about lots of different things, certainly some sports stuff. I've done a lot of work with ESPN, but also uh biographies of other figures in the world, and uh and I had just come off of a film about addiction. Um, and so I was looking for something lighter. So I met the a guy named Scott Tarter, who is that MA lawyer that I mentioned, uh who had co-founded Dropping Dimes. And he was talking to me. Uh I just met him by chance, and I told me what he was doing, and I and I was surprised that this issue even existed. Like because the league has become what it's become, that it has, you know, you know, television contracts that number into the tens of billions of dollars, uh, that taking care of what is essentially a little over 100 guys uh that still remained from the ABA, uh, a matter of a is really a few million dollars against um tens of billions, uh, that was surprised that it existed. And so, but he said they were they had been talking with the NBA for at that point well over a year, and then he thought it was very close to being solved. So I thought this was a short film. Like, can I follow you and the Dropping Dimes Foundation for this next six weeks while you get this done? And he said yes. And then, you know, as as fate would have it, six weeks came and went, nothing. Uh, another month, nothing. And that kept repeating itself, sort of groundhog day-ish, and uh uh, and then you know, the consequence of that started to show up, meaning players that we had former ADA players started to get sick, started to pass away. These guys are in their 70s and 80s, that's happening a lot, and uh, and so we were able to watch this happening and unfolding. And I'm also watching the guy who becomes kind of our protagonist, Scott Tarter, um, go from a very kind of cool, calm, and collected lawyer to a guy who's getting pretty angry and frustrated and um outraged at how could this be? And so um that led us on and on until uh uh we come to the resolution of the film. So I it once that story started and once I started to see the injustice of it, um, really is what it boiled down to, that uh um I couldn't let go.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

And what was the NBA's argument that I mean you make uh there must be a distinction here between what was maybe uh legally required versus sort of a moral obligation you hinted at, you know, here. Yeah. Um, but uh with it only being not that many people, not that much money in the grand scheme of things for the NBA, was there some sort of precedent that they were afraid of, or what was the crux of the issue from their standpoint?

SPEAKER_01 10:22

To the best of my understanding, um, because I am not a lawyer, and uh and and you know ultimately um this became a be what for what came what started off as a very beautiful kind of sports story, right? Um, this deeply impactful league, uh kind of renegade independent thinking league, um, to uh really a business and legal story. And so that you know, you get a lot of lawyers involved very quickly because the money got very big um for what the league's valuation was, the league being the NBA. And uh and so I think when they looked at, okay, we have this legacy league. Technically, the ABA players were never employees of the NBA because it wasn't a merger. That's an important legal distinction, and the one that the NBA spent a lot of time crafting in 1976 and then letting play out afterwards. Um, even though you know every major press outlet to this day still calls it a merger. And and the NBA has allowed that to happen, that definition as a merger in the public parlance. But uh from a legal point of view, no, very much not a merger. And so um I think they were afraid of a couple things. Um one, you know, uh, I think from a risk point of view, they're looking at it and saying, well, if we do this for these guys, who else is gonna come knocking? Um uh how much uh are are they asking for? Um you know what happens then with uh widows and family members. Uh you know, you know, it's um there there it does get a little complicated if you let it. Um however, uh there's also um other paths that are easy. So basically, in in the in the common way of looking at things where there's a will, there's a way. And so if you wanted to get this done, if you wanted to help these guys, um, without all your risk management, you know, the massive risk management team that that runs around the corporate offices, um, you could simply make it a charitable contribution. Um, you could do lots of different things to to make this happen. Uh the Dropping Dimes Foundation is a non-for-profit, they could administer it for you. It's uh there or any number of other organizations could. Um, but that's not what happened, unfortunately. Until uh there was an uh an ABA player named George Carter, who in uh 19 or excuse me, 2020, he um he had developed throat cancer. He was a longtime all-star. He was a great, great player. Um uh had throat cancer. He was a limo driver at that point in his life, and uh and he died penniless in Las Vegas. And uh his story caught on with uh a reporter here at the Indianapolis Star, and then later uh with the USA Today, and it created uh enough of a national awareness that, hey, these guys are struggling, how can this be? That the NBA at least came to the table, started talking with dropping dimes. And that's the discussion that Tartar had been having for a year plus when I met him. So it was really only through a little bit of shaming that that that started.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Wow, and how did Tartar and dropping dimes get formed? Was it a former NBA player that uh went to someone that could be helpful, or they just learned about this and out of the goodness of their heart got involved? Or how did that come to be?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah, it's a great, great question. Uh uh, so we're we're in Indianapolis, right? So this is Pacers territory, and uh um there was a very um impressive former ABA player named Mel Daniels, uh, who played for uh many, many years. He was used great, great players Hall of Famer now. And uh uh he after his playing days became a scout and then an assistant coach with the Pacers, and so he traveled around and he would see former ABA players struggling. He um is a story of him going through uh airport and uh at airport traveling with the team, and he sees uh uh a Skycap at the Phoenix Airport, and it's a former ABA player, and he's like, wait, that's and you gotta understand the ABA guys, um, they were very, very tight with uh uh almost a fraternal feeling of with them. And so when he sees a brother um working like that, he was frustrated and he would he would bang the drum as loud as he could. Finally, um Tartar and his co-founder, Dr. John Abrams, um, who turned out who was when he was a teen was a ball boy for the Pacers, and then he uh went on to become an eye doctor, and he's been the Pacers eye doctor for nearly 40 years, I think. Um they met Mel and and and you know, let them know what was happening. And uh Mel was a very forceful person, if you ever met him. Uh and uh he he was basically wouldn't let them go until they said they would do something. And so um so they formed dropping dimes as a not-for-profit, and uh very, very much at Mel's urging. Um so throughout the film, you'll see that there are these ABA players who stick their their neck out for the what the guys they consider their brothers.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

And I'm just curious, uh, are you talking about a set of players that were only on those teams that then became part of the NBA? Like if you played for Kentucky Colonels or some other team that didn't become part of the NBA, they're not part of this discussion, or those players are as well?

SPEAKER_01 16:21

No, what what they they had to ultimately so when dropping dime started looking at how do we approach the NBA about this, because the NBA wasn't paying any attention to the players themselves. So um this was uh the first sense of representation that the players had had in 40 years. Um they had to define it, like so who would be eligible for a pension? Um, because the players all would say there's documentation there. We saw it from our uh our player representatives, um, that said basically, you know, the ABA players would be treated as if the two leagues were always one. Um, and so they read that and said, that means the years that we played in the ABA count towards an NBA pension. Seems pretty straightforward to them. And so uh, okay, if that's the case, then who would qualify for a pension? Well, anybody who played three years, had three years of service time. Um, that would start then a pension. So guys who played three years, five years, seven years, no matter what your teams, because people bounced to lots of different teams. Um, so uh anybody who qualified for that, and that was uh originally about 140 guys, and the numbers kept getting smaller as as players would die. So uh uh, you know, what what ultimately happened was a nuance to what you're talking about, which was that um guys who did go into the NBA and play at least three years, therefore qualifying for an NBA pension, wound up being treated very differently than guys who might have played uh three years in the ABA and no NBA service time. So uh and unfortunately, guys who who are the uh Julius Irving is the easy example, right? Um no more influential player ever than Julius Irving. And when a little bit of help came for some ABA players, which you know we'll see unfold in the film, um, Julius got nothing. Julius got and and Julius doesn't need it financially, right? He's he's done very well for himself, but from uh just basic um respect point of view, there's not even a recognition of that, of this, of this time in the ABA. And so um I think that stings for for a lot of guys.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Yeah. Um have there been obviously the fund foundation raises money. I mean, this is clearly the argument is this is the NBA's responsibility, but have individual teams or other former players are there others that have have stepped up in in the void?

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Unfortunately, no. I I I I wish I could say otherwise. Uh quietly, excuse me, quietly some have. Uh so for instance, there was uh uh a 50-year reunion um here in Indianapolis um a few years back, and uh the um the the Simon found family, which owns the Pacers, um you know, did help with that. Uh, you know, they they offered their arena for free to to host this. They um you know they gave some money towards dropping dimes, but from an official capacity, um, you know, uh really anything formal, to my knowledge, no one has really done that. There may have been quiet donations to the dropping dimes foundations that I that I don't know about, um, but um significant financial help from any individual or organization, to my knowledge, has not happened.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

And and for that matter, uh the and current NBA Players Association or a current NBA star, someone with the platform, would that make a big difference in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 20:22

It would make a huge difference. And and to be fair, I mean, we did follow um this story, and as it uh as it happened, um, you know, the NBA obviously had been considering it and talking with dropping dimes for a while. Um, towards the end, um, when CJ McCollum, who was the the former head of the players association, he stepped down not even a year ago, um heard about the issue um basically through social media. Um uh he uh he did step into the void and try and help somewhat he as the union head. And uh and so when a little bit of help came from the players, which you'll see unfold in the film, um the players association played an important role in that, the current players association. Um however, uh there's significant work that wasn't done. Um there's there's still guys that, as I mentioned, Julius and um several other players, um, that that really nothing happened. And some don't need the help, some do. And and uh and so uh it's um it's a matter of not um offering if you don't offer the help universally, right? It's like you know, why are we doing this? It's because uh I think guys like like Julius or other guys, they would they would donate the money. They don't really need it, they want the respect. But um other guys who could use it to to pay for some insulin, you know, who are we to judge how somebody uses the money that they In my opinion, they've earned.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah. Um, what are some of the um the stories that you learned? I know you know there's there's players that are profiled in the film. Um as a filmmaker, was it hard to uh convince people to to share a their life, that's the state of their life when in some circumstances, you know, they could potentially be embarrassed to share about their health or their finances. Um and what were some of the stories that you felt were the m you were able to tell most poignantly in the film?

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yeah, uh I think uh I I was really impressed with everybody who did step up and talk. Um so even from you know your larger names, the Bob Costas, who began his career in the ABA, Julius Irving, um, you know, Dan Isel, the Hall of Famers, you know, they did speak in the film. Uh and then to your point, uh the guys who who could use the help, Jimmy Jones is an example, he's uh six-time um uh ABA all-star. He um he is driving an Uber to this day in Las Vegas, um and just trying to make ends meet, which is what he says he does on a daily basis. Um and he didn't, you know, mismanage his money or anything. He just there wasn't a ton of money. These guys were not making, it's important to note, um, anything close to what today's players make. Um, so I you know, contracts in the late 60s were probably around 20,000 a year. So I mean, you're you're just scale is so different. So, you know, when Jimmy retired, uh, you know, he taught school, he he he worked for Amway, you know, he's he's done lots of different things to try and make ends meet. And he's just a guy I wound up having an incredible amount of respect for. Uh I, you know, as a player, I I saw him be kind of like nearly a Hall of Flame level player. Um and yet here he is in the latter years of his life. Um finances are not easy. Uh Ralph Simpson, who lives in Denver, uh, same thing. Uh, you know, not that he's driving an Uber, but you know, he he put aside heart surgery for a number of years, life-saving heart surgery, um, because he was afraid of the bills. And uh, you know, those sorts of things um are not easy for for someone to talk about, anyone, let alone an elite athlete where um, you know, you sort of you drive your own um uh uh future. You are you you're self-determined, you know, based on your athletic skills and your work ethic. Um and so these guys were were the elite athletes of their day. And for them to humble themselves and say, hey, I need some help, I that that to me was very, very impressive. Um and then, you know, the the other maybe softer side of of things, but because of this this decision to not help them uh has caused a lot of pain. Uh and you know, the the guy who was the head of the ABA players union, a very weak union at the at the end of the league's time, uh had to make a decision. Do we sign this piece of paper that's been put in front of us to to bring four teams into the NBA? Um, you know, he looked at it uh and said, you know, he's no lawyer, he didn't have a lawyer counseling him, and said, if I don't sign this, every player in the ABA will be unemployed. And I represent these guys. If I sign it, at least four teams worth of players will go in. And uh so he signed it. And as it became clear that what he thought was in there, because he he was told, you know, there are pensions for players, there are, you know, uh other benefits in there, as he realized that it really wasn't, um, that the legal ease was so slick that uh that it just didn't exist, he has felt guilt for 40 plus years. Um and he talked to us about that. First time he had ever talked about it publicly. Uh a guy named Jumbo Jim, his name was Jim Akins, but he went by Jumbo Jim because he was nearly seven feet tall. Um and uh very sweet man. And uh uh, you know, one of the nice things about the film is that as players have seen the film and and seen Jim's pain, we've had a number of times where we've called him after a screening, and these players who he hasn't heard from for many, many years, are telling him, Jim, you're good with us. You don't have anything to be guilty about. And that's been a lovely thing to see.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yeah, I can imagine. Um, when you think about the like the lessons of this story that transcend basketball or transcend specifically the ABA, like what do you think this whole situation says about society or um business or uh the way we um deal with people in the later stages of their life in this country?

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Yeah, well, I mean, there's a couple of different things there. Um, one is that yes, we these players, once they stop playing, right, uh uh a bookkeeper would look at them and see them as depreciating assets or liabilities. Um, and so it's unfortunate that human beings become grouped like that, like a decaying machine, um, something that might cost more to maintain going on. Um and but I think the most important thing to me is that it's uh it's a story of capitalism. Uh the NBA ultimately is a business, it's an entertainment, sports entertainment business. And um things like what happened to these players happen when somehow in the corporate boardroom, humanity uh doesn't get a seat at the table. Um, so like, you know, we we can look at what's a valuation and um the the the dollars that something might be worth, uh, you know, times 10 or whatever your uh multiplier is when you're looking at a merger or an acquisition. Um but if there isn't somebody at the table that says, wait, just for a second, let's look at what's are there human costs here that we're not evaluating? Um, these kinds of things can happen. I I'm a capitalist, I think it's a I think it's a great system, but it is imperfect. Um, it is it has blind spots. And so this is a story that reveals some of those blind spots and uh and the very real pain um that comes with it. And it just happens to be a business that deals in sports.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Um, I think Amazon Prime has an ABA documentary series on right now. Um like, do you have mixed feelings about that? I mean, one hand, you've been working on this, this is an important story. Uh then you got Prime like promoting this other film. Do they work together? Does this ultimately help elevate the story you're trying to tell? Or like how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Yeah, I guess I I don't have a problem with it. Um, and those guys have been great about trying to help promote um the waiting game as well. Um I think it's you know, I wanted our film to do a couple things. First and foremost, I wanted it to celebrate the ABA and all that it brought to basketball and these players. Um, and then tell the story of what happened to them afterwards. Um, the story you may think you know, but you don't know. Um Soul Power, which is the the ABA piece on Amazon, really is kind of um 1967 to 1976, it really doesn't go past that. And uh, and so uh, you know, if that helps celebrate the ABA, then we have you know intersecting missions. That's great. Um, I don't I don't have a problem with it. I think there's room for um lots of great stories out there. And and if it gets the ABA guys some attention in that they deserve in the latter parts of their lives, I'm thrilled for that. Um, I wish we had the marketing oomph that uh uh that Amazon is able to give a project, but you know that's that's just the way it is. This is an independent film. Um, and you you know, you mentioned that we have an event coming up tomorrow night. Um, and that's you know, Julius Irving, uh Bob Costas, Artis Gilmore, uh, Scott Tarter, and myself will be having a live question and answer period on our YouTube page on what is called the Realist. Um R-E-E-L-I-S-T. Um, it's uh it is an independent streaming service for independent films. So uh there are lots of stories like this and um that that don't get the Amazon Prime treatment, so to speak. There are only you know five or six major streamers in the world, right? And so uh lots of films, great independent documentaries, uh, are not finding a home these days. And so the realist is set up to actually do that. And so the waiting game is you can see it on the realist. It's the only place that you can actually stream it. Um, and it's it's r-e-e-l-i-st.stream is the way to find that. And uh so this is a live QA that will talk uh about the experiences of those players. Scott Tarter will talk about his experience with dropping dimes. Bob Costas is gonna host, which is fun. Uh, and uh it'll be just a pleasure for me to sort of sit and listen to those guys and occasionally throw in a thought.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Well, what a great collection you've got there. That that's awesome. And I mean, really, the the prime series is incomplete without the work. I mean, the the story is incomplete without you know bringing it up to date. Um, and and the what's happened with these guys and these players. It's amazing that you've um you know dedicated uh this chunk of your life to telling this story that could have a real impact uh on lives. Has anything changed since the time that the film came out? Uh or is that what you're gonna be talking about some tomorrow?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

We will talk about that tomorrow. Um, I the one of the nice things is the we've done a ton of in I know community screenings and and and different uh things like that. And it's generated a bunch of donations to including the largest single um donation that dropping dines has ever received. So dropping dice has gotten some money out of it, and that's good. Um, but in terms of like a structural thing, something that uh you know, either the players association or a retired player or or something that to step up um and say, because there has been some help that's been done without giving away the film basically for another five million dollars roughly, and a press release, right? A press release that says, you know, just the the ABA was definitive in in all the great things that are happening in the NBA, and we appreciate that. Um, I think that's what a lot of the former players are really looking for, much more than a a check. Um, and so um the guys who really need the help, that's the five million dollars. So five million at a press release, and we could solve a decent amount of human suffering for uh guys that that really need it. Um that's you know, that's a tax-deductible contribution for some people. Um and uh uh if if the right people can see it, the right former player, the right current player, the current players association, I would love to see this solved. That would make me uh it'd be uh one of the best things that's ever happened in my professional career.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yeah, absolutely. Well, um obviously I I hope that happens. And maybe someone uh listening or watching to this podcast is the right person. You never know. So um, Michael, thank you for taking the time uh to come on the show. Uh congratulations on creating another uh great film. Thank you. Again, we're talking about an event tomorrow, which as we we're recording this on May 20th. So this is May 21st, uh, where people could uh tune in and and 8 p.m.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Eastern. And if they miss it, it'll be on the the the realist uh YouTube page uh for anybody to watch. But if they want to throw a question live, that's tomorrow at eight.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Got it. Okay. Um Michael, again, thank you so much and uh look forward to talking to you again soon, hopefully when there's uh a terrific resolution to this story.