15- Label vs. Student: Intake, Assessment and Diagnosis for Neurodivergent Students with Tara Mock

This episode challenges the myth that teachers need a diagnosis to teach well and offers practical ways to create a welcoming intake, read the learner in real time, and build trust with parents who value privacy. We share scripts, strategies, and a mindset shift: see the student, not the label.

• privacy and dignity as non‑negotiables
• welcoming intake that centers the learner
• improvisation and co‑composition as assessment
• lowering parent defenses with empathy
• labels as hypotheses, not prescriptions
• repertoire choice as motivation and access
• language that invites, not interrogates
• challenge to adapt teaching before seeking labels

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Chapters

• 2:30 Welcome & Topic Reveal
• 4:01 Do Families Share Diagnoses?
• 6:30 Privacy, Consent, and Boundaries
• 8:47 Inclusive Intake Without Interrogation
• 12:01 Reading the Student, Not the File
• 15:09 Improvisation as Assessment
• 18:20 Lowering Parent Defenses with Care
• 21:24 Why Teachers Want Labels
• 24:26 Labels Help, But Don’t Teach
• 27:50 Center the Person Over the Diagnosis
• 30:37 Motivation, Pop Repertoire, and Fit
• 34:20 Challenge: Learn the Learner First
• 42:23 Tiny Teaching Tip & Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 1:15

Welcome back to the podcast. I am delighted to be joined today by my co-host and very good friend Tara Mock. Welcome Tara.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26

Good morning. How are you today?

SPEAKER_00: 1:29

Oh, I'm so much better now that we get to talk. Um, Tara was on the podcast a few episodes ago on episode 12, which was a wonderful episode. So if you haven't yet listened, make sure you go back and take a listen because that was a really fun episode. And it was. It was got some really fun things in store for you today.

SPEAKER_01: 1:51

Oh yeah, I might be feeling a little spicy about this topic.

SPEAKER_00: 1:56

Good. Well, we're gonna get right into it. And today's episode, we're gonna focus on one of the most asked questions about neurodiversity that I have ever received. And Tara, I think it's one that you have received over and over again. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01: 2:15

Uh yes, I see it all the time online in Facebook groups, talking to teachers. Um, in fact, I do a presentation for groups really centered around this particular topic. Oh, it's very common. Yeah, and I have pretty strong feelings about it as a parent of um young adult children who are neurodiverse. And there's many aspects of this issue to consider.

SPEAKER_00: 2:45

Yes. So, as you may have guessed from Tara's teaser, we're going to be discussing some tips and myths on how to talk to parents of neurodivergent learners and how not to talk to them, as well as general communication tips and then that all-important question. Everybody wants to know, what do you do when parents or students do not share a diagnosis? So we have a lot in store for you today. Tara, I thought this would be a fun one to start with. Do most of your studio families share a diagnosis when you first meet them? Like if they're a new student coming to your studio, not a trend, not a not a transfer or not somebody you've taught before, do they typically share that with you?

SPEAKER_01: 3:36

No. No, not not at all. Um as part of the um, I don't really call it an interview, I just I call it a meet and greet. So they can get to know me. I tell them they need to interview me as much as I um talk with them. And I will mention when I'm talking about myself that I do specialize in teaching students who are neurodiverse and may have these diagnoses. And sometimes, you know, most of the time they they don't respond in any way. Um, sometimes I will have a parent in the background, so if the child can't see them, usually go well, they might like nod or point at their kid. So subtle communication, and I respect that, and I note it, I just kind of like wink or nod or something, right? And and move on. And that may be all the information that I get, and I am great, I'm great with that, you know. Yeah, um, but it's really, it's usually pretty, pretty rare.

SPEAKER_00: 4:40

Yeah, I mean, uh, kind of the same for me. I I guess things have changed over the last probably five, ten years in my studio, where now a lot of people contacting me for lessons say in their interest email, hey, I have a kid with, and they will list some of their learning challenges or maybe a diagnosis like autism or dyslexia. Um, but I think this is a big misconception that maybe teachers feel like they're just being cheated by not knowing this information. But the reality is, even for those of us who specialize in teaching this population, like m 99% of my studio is this population, I still don't always know that information myself.

SPEAKER_01: 5:29

And I I think we would both argue that you don't you don't need to know.

SPEAKER_00: 5:34

Spoiler!

SPEAKER_01: 5:35

Spoiler!

SPEAKER_00: 5:36

Yes, you're still right.

SPEAKER_01: 5:38

This is private information. Yes. Um this is private for the parent, this is private for the student. Um, as your student grows older, or these students, they may have very strong feelings about what information is shared and not shared. And I think we need to respect that, and we need to respect the privacy of the family. Um you know, maybe this is a strong comparison, but it would be like me walking into your home and like tell me what psychiatric disorders you might have. I need to know before I work with you. Do you have this issue and this issue or diabetes or home? Like, that's private, that's personal. You have no business asking me that.

SPEAKER_00: 6:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 6:25

And I it I that is a strong comparison, but that's what it feels like. Now a lot of teachers feel like maybe they need to know so they can better teach. Um and I've even seen comments or you know, in Facebook groups where teachers will say if they refuse to disclose a diagnosis with me, then I refuse to take them into my studio.

SPEAKER_00: 6:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 6:56

Number one, um, I think that's the one I feel very strongly about, is when teachers say that you don't know that there is a diagnosis to even share. Um, and number two, by trying to be inclusive and teach students who may have a diagnosis, you're actually not being very welcoming by giving them an or else.

SPEAKER_00: 7:20

Yeah. And I mean, it's it's actually it can be a bit counterintuitive. And we're gonna do like the whole end of our episode is gonna be on all about that. Like, what do we do? What do we do when they don't share? But you just brought up something so so accurate, that whole aspect of being welcoming. So this is something I get asked a lot, what do I ask, or what do I do on that intake process for students, you know, for new students or transfers that I'm getting. And this is something I have been thinking about for years because I've worked in a lot of different music schools, like youth conservatories that are very, very serious and very strict and very formal. You know, I've worked in community music schools that are a bit more relaxed. I've worked in, you know, at my own studio for a very long time. So yeah, what what thoughts do you have on this, and then maybe I'll share a couple?

SPEAKER_01: 8:26

Um, I I enjoy the first meeting process, and I actually block an hour of time.

SPEAKER_00: 8:37

Oh, that's very generous. I want to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_01: 8:42

So I enjoy talking with the families and getting to know them as a person. I don't want to rush the experience at all. Um, I want the students, if they're pre-college students, I want them to know that I'm interested in them.

SPEAKER_00: 8:57

That's so important.

SPEAKER_01: 8:59

Yeah, I don't want to talk over them. I don't want to talk with the parents and ignore them. Um, especially if they might be neurodivergent, they've already gone to enough therapy and doctor and teacher meetings where they're being talked about and not to. Yes. And what really influenced this um perspective is my daughter's orthodontist. We went to interview different orthodontists, and the first one that we went to, he talked with Savannah about the plan for her treatment. Not me.

SPEAKER_00: 9:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 9:35

Her in the eyes. And that was all she needed. We actually didn't even go anywhere else to get a quote.

SPEAKER_00: 9:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 9:45

Because that environment of welcoming her, seeing her, made all of the difference. And I, it made a difference for me as a mom. He saw her. He wasn't just talking with me about the details. So I then applied that to my studio. I make sure that I engage with the student. And I do have a terrible memory. So as we talk, I'll I'll pick up my pad of paper or iPad or whatever I'm using at the time, and I'll just look at the student and I'll say, Do you mind if I take notes while we chat? I I just have a really bad memory sometimes. And do you mind 100% of the time? Oh no, that's okay. That you know, I don't mind at all. And so we just talk about what kind of music they love, what kind of music they want to play, um, you know, what other things do they do with their time, what hobbies. And usually there is always something I can connect with. Like, oh, I used to do karate classes too, or oh, did you know my daughter rides horses? Oh, my son loves video games, and I try to find that point of connection that we just as humans tend to intuitively do, not always intuitive to neurodivergent students, right? But I try to find that connection point. I talk with the parents also, like what kind of music background do you have? And then we in in the course of that conversation, we tend to cover everything in the studio policy. Oh, tell me about the piano that you have at home. Oh, you need help finding one? I'm happy to help you with that.

SPEAKER_00: 11:17

Um, and that's that's just really uh it speaks to the need to see the human in front of you, see the student in front of you. And I totally agree that we do have to be discerning in the process of meeting and taking on new families because it's very easy as a private musician, private piano teacher to think, I wonder if they're gonna hire me. But really, you have to ensure that it's a good fit for you, too. And in my communications with new families, the emails and the phone calls, I never do a meetup with a family without emailing and phone calling the parents first. That's where I assess the parents. I want a couple different interactions with them by email, by phone call. I send them just a preliminary survey just to see if I think I'm gonna be a good fit or if they're gonna be a good fit for me because I don't want to waste their time. Um, and I you really can tell right off a lot of red flags or green flags, lots of one or the other. But um I also do a meet and greet. I call it a meetup or or a chat, and that's where I talk to the students. I've already met with the parents online, uh Zoom or phone call, so I know I'm okay from what I know so far to work with them, but I do agree we have to have that kind of personal connection, and also it's a little bit ironic that so much of what we're talking about today, this what to do about getting the diagnosis information. Well, what have you done to get to know your student?

SPEAKER_01: 13:05

100%, 100%, and there's so much in that conversation, in that hour time frame that I can I can read so so to speak, about the student. I'm I'm observing everything. How well do they respond to me? And you know, if if they're not verbalizing anything at all, okay, maybe there might be selective mutism, maybe not. They're just shy. This is new, they're in a new place.

SPEAKER_00: 13:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 13:34

You know, but I can kind of tick things off in my head. The other thing I do in the interview is um I try to not make it um feel like a test or an exam. Like you can do clapbacks and playbacks and things like that, but my number one thing that I do, and I would love to know what you do, Elizabeth, is I do improvisation with them. Oh I let them pick out maybe two notes or three notes, poke the keys, your suggestion there. And just by playing in different styles, getting louder, getting softer, I can assess in that moment so many things about the student.

SPEAKER_00: 14:12

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01: 14:13

Um, I can, you know, make a mental note about what is going to be a strength and a weakness, how it's just a very powerful tool to use improvisation. But the best part about improvising with them in the interview is how their faces light up. That they created music with another person and it sounded amazing. And that is like that fills me with so much joy. Those are my most favorite moments is um just you you didn't need anything on the music stand, we didn't need complicated instructions, just play.

SPEAKER_00: 14:51

Well, and then your students leave realizing instead of focusing on an assessment that lists out okay, they're unable to read music so far, they don't know what a quarter note is, and all the things they don't know yet, they leave actually having experienced music. And I actually do something very, very similar, uh, in which we like compose a little piece together, and I'll often have them. I have these really cool things. Um, we should probably give these away as a freewhe at some point, but yeah, I made these little pinwheels where um it's like a little spinner that has different options for tempo, mood, animals, dynamics, and we'll just spin them and choose like we might get rainy day, um, tiger, and largo with like staccato articulations, but we will literally make up a song together trying to use that imagery. And if anybody's listening and thinking, wait a minute, I thought you said that you shouldn't use, you know, be careful or discerning when using excessive imagery. Well, I want to see how they think. I really do. I want to see how how comfortable they are like taking instructions from somebody. How how comfortable are they following directions by trying to do something that's a little uncomfortable? And I don't do that to stress them out. They usually think it's absolutely hilarious because I always tell them, like, well, I've never had this combination before either. And I have never made up a song on the piano thinking about a tiger walking through a rainstorm on a Tuesday with the tempo of Larga, which is very slow. But let's see what it sounds like. Oh, it's Takato. Uh, so let's see what it sounds like, and they always think it's so funny.

SPEAKER_01: 16:41

And I love that. Tiger.

SPEAKER_00: 16:45

Yes, exactly. And sometimes they give it a name, like you know, they'll give the tiger a name, and weeks later, if this student signs up to take piano with me and we decide to work together, weeks later I'll be like, Hey, do you remember what we did in your first lesson? They're like, Yes, and they recount every detail, and they have been playing it at home for weeks. Um, but it's such a fun way to assess students. Um, I think we should probably I'm writing it down right now. We should probably do a whole episode on that. But you know, just and also it's very powerful for the parents to observe this just as an onlooker, you know. Parents of neurodivergent students, and you can correct me on this, or I'd love to hear your input, but I feel like they always have to be in the driver's seat. They're always advocating, they're always, no, this is how they learn, no, it's this medication, no, it's this teacher. We can't do that other class. You know, they're always having to stand up for their kid and try to advocate that they are capable, that they can participate, and for them to be able to just observe this process of their child taking all of this information I've given them, but seeing how I can present it in a way that's not overwhelming, and in a way that their child is going to be successful. That's that's pretty much a game changer.

SPEAKER_01: 18:14

It is, and as a parent, like I I think of myself sitting in those situations. I'm I am primed and ready as a mama bear because you get hurt so often by rejections um or people who just don't understand your student, and um so it feels like I'm always on edge. So to be able to observe a positive interaction is life-giving beyond words, um, and then I lost my train of thought. I'm so scared.

SPEAKER_00: 18:50

No, you're doing great, and I would imagine too that in these, you know, phone calls that I have with parents, and I I'm guessing you've probably had some similar situations, I can sometimes hear the defensive tone in a parent's voice. Because again, like I shared, sometimes they will say in an email, my six-year-old child with autism, ADHD, dyslexia, Tourette's, and dyspraxia, when I have that phone call, I can literally hear them in like top tiger mode. And then as we start to talk, like their voice comes down, and I can just I I've had first phone calls with parents that they have I can hear them like sobbing on the other end of the line. Like, just the fact that you're taking my call, just the fact that I saw on your website that you enjoy teaching kids who don't learn in a traditional way makes me feel like this might not be a disaster.

SPEAKER_01: 19:51

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I sometimes what's helpful in these conversations and what and what brings down that level of stress is like when I was doing homeschool stuff, the parents would always help come and ask for help, like about this curriculum. Well, they can't do this, they can't do this, they do this, they can't do this, can't do this. And I go, stop. And I need you to take a deep breath, and I want you to tell me what you love about your student. What do they enjoy to do? What are they really good at? You know, and let letting a parent just brag about their kid for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00: 20:33

That's beautiful. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01: 20:35

This is also helpful information as a piano teacher, right? If I'm saying to the student, like in the in-person interview, hey, what do you enjoy doing? You know, oh, I love to draw mental note, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 20:48

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 20:49

Oh my gosh, I trains. I could I could talk about trains all day, or maybe the parent will say um, you know, something and and you can find out a special interest, or maybe they love reading, or oh gosh, I I'm on my dance competition team. Well, then I'm already cataloging what analogies I can use in the future, and they're getting to share what they love about their kid. They're constantly talking about what their their kid can't do, right? Right, what IEP meetings and everything else to be able to talk about what they thrive in um is fantastic. Like even yesterday I was talking with my um my hairstylist, and we were talking about our kids, and and um she she has students who are her kids are neurodivergent, but one um struggles academically, and I said I said to her, I bet he works really well with his hands, doesn't he? She's my gosh, he is incredible. She was so excited to talk about. And then we subsequently started talking about the Temple Granted book thinking uh that addresses all of that.

SPEAKER_00: 21:56

So oh that's so neat, and I believe that is such a a hidden gem and a reason for my student success, your student success, anybody who enjoys teaching students who learn differently, when your students and parents know that you don't see them as a list of problems to solve, it changes the entire lesson experience for you and them. And so, I mean, I I want to learn as much about my students as possible in those initial conversations. This is why I send out a little survey to ask them about their child. What are they good at? What's their favorite thing in school? What is their least favorite? And I don't ask what they get the best grades in. What do they actually like? What's their favorite hobby? What's their favorite video game? What you know, I love that. I love asking these things because it just not only shows them that I'm interested, but it helps us immediately start having something in common that they have a really cool kid, you know? And I just think that helps to lower the defenses, but it also opens up for these kinds of conversations to be more organic, like, hey, does your child, is there anything about your child that I should know that will help me teach them better?

unknown: 23:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 23:25

I think I think wording matters. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01: 23:28

Yes, absolutely. And I after you and I met and you were talking about how you asked that question, and it um I've been using it ever since, and you helped me adjust it to um let parents know that um you can share with me, it's gonna be confidential and things like that. But that is a welcoming way to open the conversation about positives, about struggles, about anything else. Most of the time, parents skip the question. I ask it every year in my survey that goes out in every fall. And you know, sometimes there'll be a little something on there, but most of the time, not anything. But um I think it's important to know for parents to know that they can come talk to me anytime. And that happened. I've had parents, you know, they'll send their kid out and they'll go sit in the car, and oh, they'll chat with me for just a moment that they they privately share with me without the student there, which I think is the best environment.

SPEAKER_00: 24:32

Absolutely. And I think this really kind of leads us into why do you think most teachers, especially the ones that we have interacted with, I I get this question at every single presentation that I give, virtual or in person at conferences for music teachers meetings? I don't believe I've ever given a presentation on neurodiversity where I've not received this question. And you you do an entire presentation on this question. But why do you think so many teachers are hung up on the, you know, parents are refusing to share a diagnosis with me? You know, why do you think there's such a hang-up about that?

SPEAKER_01: 25:17

There could be a variety of reasons. It could be just as and I don't mean this in a negative way, but just a lack of confidence and knowing enough about that area and that diagnosis or all of this, because so much is um uh comorbidities you have happening at the same time. It's not it's not black and white, and so and I I think as people we also want to put things in a box, like, oh, these are the students has ADHD. Well, I wish I would have known that. Well, it's it's likely you could probably see it, right, without demanding the diagnosis, but then putting them into these different boxes when really it all overlaps, you know. So I would venture to say just maybe a lack of confidence. Sometimes, and this might sound harsh, I I've gotten the impression that teachers feel like they have a right to the information.

SPEAKER_00: 26:14

Yes, I have experienced that many times, and I had a conversation with um somebody, oh my, like eight, ten years ago at a music conference, and you know, this area of study, neurodiversity and piano, has really advanced. And eight, ten years ago, it was still advancing, but in a more like earlier stage, and that was exactly the conversation I had. Like, they are refusing to share this with me, and I know that my teaching is very good, and I I couldn't tell you the name of this teacher, I have no idea, so I'm not divulging anything, but it was like a very um I could tell they were very frustrated, and I honestly felt so badly for them because I've been there, I've had students that are not something's not working, and I don't know what it is yet. But this kind of entitled, like, I deserve a right to know. If I'm an educator, then they owe me the right. I am so sorry, but you don't. You you you actually alluded to this earlier, and it's actually something I was wanting to talk about. It's a matter of privacy.

SPEAKER_01: 27:25

It is, it's privacy, it's it there's HIPAA rules, and I don't know anything. I'm not very knowledgeable about that, but we have to respect the privacy of the family and the parents and the students, right? I have I I do talk about my young adult children, but I also have permission from them to talk about certain things, but there's certain things that they're like, nope, mom, that's I really don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00: 27:52

That's off limits. I don't feel comfortable.

SPEAKER_01: 27:54

And I strongly respect her rights. And I think in this age of social media and videos and phones, um especially when it first when I first got on Facebook, I think it was, I don't know, 2011 or something, and um I was excited to share photos of my kids and tell funny stories about them, you know, because as a it's kind of a community, yeah. And oh, these are all my friends that I get to be in touch with. But now, like, would my kids now be okay with me sharing that embarrassing story from when they were five?

SPEAKER_00: 28:32

Perhaps not.

SPEAKER_01: 28:33

Yes, so it and I know it's been a big topic of conversation. All that to say, it's it's private information, you don't have a right to it.

SPEAKER_00: 28:42

Well, and in some cases, perhaps these parents have not told their child. Yes, I I have had so many students that I know just from experience and and learning and research, that there are some learning struggles going on, maybe some developmental struggles going on, maybe some autism, I don't know. There's some stuff happening. And if I need to ask a parent about a behavior that I'm concerned about, which is a whole other topic, but that they'll often say, like, oh well, we actually haven't told them, but I've had that happen multiple times, so that's also a reason perhaps why they haven't told you because they haven't told their child.

SPEAKER_01: 29:26

That's very, very true. Um, we we did have a conversation about you know, when was the right time to tell Gabe about his diagnosis? We feel strongly about um not using it as a crutch, um, and to instead you can do everything that you want to do, but you are not going to use this as an excuse. Um, you know, you're gonna learn skills and things, and that's that's a whole nother conversation. Another possibility is the parents don't know themselves. Oh they don't want to know. Um, there was a certain period of time where it had been mentioned that we needed to pursue a possible diagnosis, and we were like, no. Um it's it hurts as a parent. It hurts that there might be a possibility. This is not the right wording, but it's what it feels like, that there might be something wrong with your kid.

SPEAKER_00: 30:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 30:25

Because you dream of what your family's gonna look like and what your kids are gonna be like, and then to to be hit with the possibility that your child is going to struggle in life, it is a lot to process, it is very emotional, right? So um they may not even be aware that there might be an issue, you know. We might be able to see something because we have experience with this, right? And they just might not be aware, you know, maybe it's a trait that's been in their family for ages, which a lot of it's genetic, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:55

Yes, and that is so, so true. And I think honestly, a lot of this points back to what is the reason that we teachers feel like we need a diagnosis? I think that's a really great question to ask ourselves. And I don't know that there's a right or wrong answer, but For me, one of the reasons why it can be helpful is to help me see something that I'm not I don't I'm not understanding. And I think that is the main reason just for me to see maybe these things are connected in a way that I'm not aware of yet.

SPEAKER_01: 31:33

Yeah, and that's this is where it's helpful to talk to other teachers as well. This is the behavior that I'm observing. What do you think is happening? So it is it is helpful when parents do share. I thank them for sharing with me and I reassure them I will keep it confidential. Um and it it kind of gives me a basis or specific things to plan. But if they don't, I am still going to, and this you taught me this was I'm still going to teach that student as if they might have that diagnosis. Right. No, I'm going to try, I'm going to try this approach and see what happens. And I'm going to learn from that student what works best and what doesn't. And it's it's very unique with each and every student.

SPEAKER_00: 32:23

Well, and this is a huge reason why it can be frustrating for teachers who ask questions about this topic because we don't have a method series for autism. We don't have a method series for ADHD. And there's a really good reason for that. And this actually, Temple Grandin, if you're listening, we love you. Um two members of your fan club here. But in this book club, we're doing the Piano Teachers Book Club, Visual Thinking is our book. And she does an enormous chapter about complimentary minds. First of all, what a great chapter title, chapter four, complimentary minds. But a huge portion of that chapter is what good are the labels? And she as an autistic woman shares how conflicting it is for her to be identified as autistic when the way she experiences autism is so vastly different from how others might because that spectrum is so wide. So for us as teachers, when parents share with us, my child has a diagnosis of autism, that kind of helps me some things to look out for, like you just said, but in no way does it tell me how to teach their child.

SPEAKER_01: 33:52

Mm-mm. Not at all. There could be so many opposites. They might be creative, very creative, and use great imagery. And yeah, they might not at all.

SPEAKER_00: 34:02

They might not at all.

SPEAKER_01: 34:05

They might be sensory seeking or they might be sensory avoidant. You know, it's it is so broad. Yes. And it in actuality, it's so much easier to me. Maybe this is a controversial take, but sometimes I just it's okay if I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 34:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 34:22

You know, maybe it's helpful if I don't know. Yes. You know, because I can take each student for who they are and learn about them, discover who they are as a person, you know. Another thought is that if we refuse to accept students into our studios unless a diagnosis is shared, which I've seen that comment multiple times on Facebook, it upsets me. Because in the course of saying, Oh yes, I'm an inclusive teacher and I can teach different um neurotypes, um, but you can't come into my studio unless you reveal a diagnosis, you've actually instead of becoming inclusive, you've been not welcoming.

SPEAKER_00: 35:02

Oh, it's very exclusive.

SPEAKER_01: 35:05

Yeah, and I think it by doing that, you're really closing the door. I would walk away. I honestly, as a parent, if I saw that kind of policy, I'd be like, no, because that means you're not going to see my kid, you're going to see their labels.

SPEAKER_00: 35:21

Oh, yes. And this is not a I'm not a sales y person, but everything we're talking about right now is why I decided to start this blog and this podcast. Because I there's just so much misinformation and myths and misconceptions about neurodiversity, which is what this whole podcast season's about. And I feel like teachers are so frustrated when they when they hear, like, oh, my student has autism, what method should I use? I'm like, any. Just try one. And my student has dyslexia. Which method should I use? Any. Just try it. Because there's if anybody guarantees you that they have all the answers for teaching a student with whatever label, you need to be very skeptical. That and that sounds harsh.

SPEAKER_01: 36:15

But no, it's not harsh at all. I think we do need to be direct with these things. I think sometimes when we've been teaching for so long a certain way, it's hard to change how we teach. Um, and we need to be open to learning, always, always learning and changing. I don't care if I'm teaching almost 30 years, I'm still trying to do better. And I'm not saying that to brag about myself, but there are areas where I can definitely improve and do better, you know. Every time I talk to a new teacher and they share an idea, and I go, oh, that is brilliant! I can try that, you know. Uh so I love learning from other teachers and learning as I go and getting better at what I do. Um, it's it's a fun process, but more important is seeing the student for who they are, welcoming them into your space, helping them feel valued, um, and that you see them, not the label.

SPEAKER_00: 37:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 37:19

Um, I think it I think it's so vastly, vastly important.

SPEAKER_00: 37:24

It is, and it really comes down to the basis of our pedagogy. When we are teaching a student, you are not actually teaching Scott Joplin, you're not actually teaching WC or even Randall Faber. You are teaching Johnny or Susie, who's sitting at your piano, and they happen to be playing music by that composer. And that is the essence of what we're talking about today, that it's a huge big fat misconception that you are ill-equipped to teach a neurodivergent student unless you know their label. Yes. It's a huge big fat misconception.

SPEAKER_01: 38:05

It is, it is. And I, you know, challenge yourself to just to start learning about the different diagnoses and what it takes. Just learn about it. This is why, you know, this this podcast and blog and everything exists, like you said. Um, I would even total side note, but I would even challenge focusing on different composers like Joplin or Bach or whoever. Um, and I know there's a whole school of thought about this, and I see teachers say all the time, oh no, no, no, I'm not teaching any pop music. Are you kidding? No, no Taylor Swift in my studio. But let me tell you, when students are able to play music that they love and they are familiar with, it is highly motivating. And this is a lesson that I have learned this year. I have um I have a couple students who love Taylor Swift and they're playing every single song in the book, and what I have noticed in the process is their rhythm has improved exponentially, their sight reading, it is remarkable, and this is a whole nother podcast. It is.

SPEAKER_00: 39:15

We'll have to do an episode about this because I think that is a wonderful thing to tap into that actually goes back to what we were talking about about the intake process, getting to know your student. So we've had a lot of thoughts today. We we've shared a lot of Tara likes to call them spicy takes, and I love that term about our thoughts on knowing the diagnosis, what to do, how to talk to parents, and really the crux of the matter is know your student and know your pedagogy. Be confident in your teaching and then learn your student. I think that's what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_01: 39:55

See the student, just see the student for who they are, like the orthodontists did with my shout out to Dr. McNutt and Clayton, North Carolina. But um watching him engage with Savannah and seeing her um changed what I do a hundred percent. Um, I think we need to see the student and what they love and what they know, what they're familiar with, because that's gonna tie into what they're not familiar with yet.

SPEAKER_00: 40:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 40:21

And that's what we do.

SPEAKER_00: 40:23

Yes, that's what we do. Um, so we want to challenge you if you have students that you're teaching, something maybe isn't going well in your lessons, or something just doesn't feel quite right, and you're itching to ask the parent about a diagnosis. Before you do that, and before you go down that rabbit trail, really learn your student. Learn how they learn, teach how they learn rather than how you feel comfortable teaching. And instead of relying on their label, see what you can do to meet them where they are and not where you want them to be. So that's what we that's what we want to challenge you with today. Before we jump into our tiny teaching tip to wrap this up today, I want to thank anybody who has taken time to leave a review of the podcast this week. That is so very kind of you. It takes just a few seconds. Um, I'm told by the folks at BuzzSprout who host our podcast that doing a review on Apple is a bit more um accurate and a bit more helpful. So if you can just tap that button and leave a review and even just say something you enjoy, um, which episode was your favorite? A very quick this can be like a 10-second process, 20-second process. But that means so much because then Apple and Buzz Sprout and Spotify will recommend the podcast to other people who might enjoy it. So, thank you for taking time to do that. And now our tiny teaching tip comes from Tara. So, Tara, will you give us our tiny teaching tip, something that you've been doing this week that both you and your students have been loving in lessons?

SPEAKER_01: 42:12

Oh man, we've been going through um a list of music to play that sounds like Halloween, sounds scary one each week. Um, Chrissy Ricker had it on her blog, and we've enjoyed listening every week to a new piece. This week was Moonlight Sonata. I don't care how popular it is, it is my absolute favorite piece.

SPEAKER_00: 42:32

I love it too in the world.

SPEAKER_01: 42:35

Um, and so I told them, you know, as they come in, we talk about Beethoven a little bit, and then I say, Well, I'm gonna play for you. Now, this was scary for me because I was like, oh my gosh, I'm taking less in time, but no, this is a great listening activity. I printed a coloring sheet and I had coloring pencils available, but each and every time I have played it, I have loved it. It has renewed my joy so much in music, but they also get to experience a live performance. And even my students who might be a little fidgety, I mean dead silent in my studio. They haven't even some have colored, some haven't. And even one sweet mom was like, Oh my goodness, I have never heard that played live before. And so I yeah, so I think my teaching tip is play for your students.

SPEAKER_00: 43:31

You know, that shows a good one.

SPEAKER_01: 43:33

What you love, let them experience a live performance, let them experience seeing you make a mistake, you know. Let them um just their live music is very, very special and to feel that music wrap around you. And I think I had one student, I I think he was gonna cry at the end. Oh my goodness. I said, Well, what did you imagine as you listened? And he goes, It was very sad. It was a little sad, and I think it just kind of like even now as I think about that conversation, I just want to cry because you know, my mama heart was like, Oh, I just I just need to hug you, it's okay. It wasn't that sad, it's all right, don't worry.

SPEAKER_00: 44:19

Oh, that's such a good tip though. Make sure you play for your students. Oh, that's an excellent tiny teaching tip. That's actually a big teaching tip. So thank you for sharing that with us.

SPEAKER_01: 44:31

And and I think they sometimes students need to see that you're good at what you do, and this is something that they can strive for.

SPEAKER_00: 44:40

Um and make it. Yes. Oh, thank you so much for sharing that, Tara. And thank you for being my co-host today. This was very fun.

SPEAKER_01: 44:49

I love it. It is so much fun. I'm sorry for all the rabbit trails.

SPEAKER_00: 44:53

It is quite alright. We love the rabbit trails, and we want to thank you for taking time to spend time with us learning about piano teaching and neurodiversity and rethinking how we can get to know our very special students. So, thank you for taking time to listen, and we will look forward to being back with you next week.

SPEAKER_01: 45:15

Yep, it sounds fun.

SPEAKER_00: 45:17

Bye, Tara.

SPEAKER_01: 45:18

Bye.