PART OF IT
Words of Women’s official podcast brings the popular Instagram and online community to life as it explores the areas, themes and different stages of a woman's life. From the experiences we all go through, to the ones we wonder about, it's an honest, real-life examination of the parts of life every woman needs to talk...or at least, hear about.
PART OF IT
The Impossibility of Motherhood
I could never be a stay-at-home mom. But I also can't go back to the corporate life I had. I want to be home for the kids, but I don't want to actually be home with them all day.
Once again, a woman must make a life-changing decision. Stay at home or work full-time. There is a middle ground. But how middle is it really? That's where I am. This middle place. Working/writing "Part Time" and feeling the unfair burden of the children and the resentment that comes with it. Which led me to this episode. If this is hard for me...how do real FULL-TIME stay-at-home moms do it?
I don't judge stay-at-home moms, but since having children, I've quickly learned I just can't do it. I'm not mentally, physically, emotionally equipped. Or maybe I am not seeing things clearly...I just don't know how you do it.
I'm not judging you, I actually want to know....how do you do it? I'm not asking what you do all day, I KNOW what you do all day and I'm saying I don't think I could do it. I think you're special, I think you're built differently, I think you think about your kids and life and the world differently. Then again, I didn't know anything until I tried talking to them.
was we're 50 50 now, which you clearly weren't. It was like no, I'm a hundred percent in the house and he's 100 on work. My issue, though, now is like, okay, we're 50 50, but there's still that that you can't get rid of, that evolutionary, especially if we're both working. But he's making 10 times more money than me, his job is more important, so it's like he can go out client meetings and he's leaving for a week for vegas for a work trip. He's trying to like preface it by being like I'm really nervous. You know it's going to be all day meetings, seven to seven.
Lauren:I go yeah, I know that's hard, but like I also know that, like my, I will I will be suffering more here, like getting up at five 30 with the girls. He's like no, it's going to be like on my feet all day. I was like last time you came home from Vegas, feed her from dancing at the club to I don't judge stay-at-home moms, I just don't know how you do it Like that, and that, to me, is more. Sometimes it does go down to like am I a bad mom? Because, like this would be too hard for me all day and this would break me as a person.
SAHM:Now I'm like a stay-at-home mom with no income. It sucks. I'm like it sucks.
Priscilla:The most annoying thing that I would hear would be what are you going to do with your time? What are you going to do with all that time? Meanwhile, I'm dropping him off from 9 am to 1 o'clock.
Emily:The idea of having to go to an 8 to five now and have someone set my schedule and have to coordinate sick days. I don't want it, it's really really, really hard. It's like impossibly hard. I'm happy to say no if I don't have capacity, but there was a point in my motherhood and marriage where, like I didn't know that I could do that, I think that's really probably the hardest thing is that you're doing this work. That feels impossible sometimes and no one appreciates it.
Lauren:To me. For a woman to choose to stay home, this is, I think, either you have to love it and want it and really are built for it You're a special type of woman who finds such joy every day from it or you don't know what you're getting into.
Rachel, LPC:Can I ask you too? I know this like a little bit, but like what is your? So you said you stopped working like a corporate job.
Lauren:So that's what I'm in this hybrid thing. So I was laid off my corporate job, so I worked with when I had my child my first and then I was laid off. When I was laid off my corporate job, so I worked with when I had my child my first and then I was laid off when I was pregnant with my second, and so that you're doing before I was doing marketing at American Express and then I was laid off and then, um, I was looking for a job and I was also like what am I doing? Because I'm a writer and like I've always written at night, I've always written, and now it's really hard to write. And also I've worked. I had worked private equity and like two jobs at once to buffer myself, like I've never not worked. And then my husband was like, yeah, but you need to because they're in daycare, so like, unless it's 5,000 a month, unless you're going to stay home with them, and I was like, well, no, no, no. Then I basically like, got a job at chase.
Lauren:They have a very rigorous background check. I have no, I haven't been in jail. I have no drug use, like there's something like that. No, past, like I didn't lie on my resume, but I know what they're like. Like you have to get your fingerprints done. All that, yeah, it was taking forever. Like you pass the background, you pass the history, you pass the drug, you pass whatever, but something's holding it up.
Lauren:And then they were like so I got a job. And then they were like, yeah, you like what is this? Like check from? Like 2019. I was like they like would go because I bank at Chase. They have, when you sign up, they can go through your bank details and it was like some weird I guess. I got like a fraud cashier check in the mail when I was 27 and like I remember, like I asked my dad, like what is this, is this? I thought it was a vendor from the wedding or something he's like just trying cash. And they were, it was a fraud check. It was like a scam. So like they were like, yeah, we have a big. Like you can't no. So they revoked it.
Lauren:So after that happened, devastating oh, it's devastating, because it took five rounds of interviews, like it was just like, and I also kind of didn't really even I was like, oh, I don't want to work in a bank, like yeah yeah, after that, I basically like, had to have this like constant battle with my husband of like I don't think I'm gonna keep applying, I think I'm done, I think this is my sign, like I'm done, like, and he had to finally be like okay, fine, I guess we'll make it work.
Rachel, LPC:Yeah.
Lauren:Yeah, we are going to make it work, but I'm not staying home with them. So I'm in a position of like that's where the middle ground was like if they're sick, I will take that burden.
Rachel, LPC:If they are Okay, Um, you make money off of words from women.
Lauren:Yeah, oh, okay, I mean, it's enough to cover one daycare. But the other thing is I've told my husband, like, but I get royalties from my first book, right, I make money from the newsletter. And then I'm like, but I'm also building something and it takes time and I've never had the time to build it. Yes, yes, yes, I know it's not the ideal time, but, like, I've always built it while working. So like if I'm telling you I've saved the money and I'm making enough to cover the daycare. So then it became wait, I'm watching them a lot, but like, no, I don't want to do this either. Like I just want to be able to have those boundaries that you have of like eight, like him, like eight to five. So that's what kind of started this whole thing. Like I could never be a stay-at-home mom. I tried it for a second. I even am resentful for like part-time. So I consider myself part-time and that's what has been the genesis of this.
Rachel, LPC:So I needed like the therapist in me, I was like I need a little bit more color. This makes more sense.
Rachel, LPC:Okay, okay makes more sense, okay. Okay, I mean, I could talk about it forever because I think it's fascinating, and I do talk about it all the time with my friends, with clients, you know, with everybody, just because it's you know, it's a fascinating thing that we're all navigating together. I am Rachel Timbari. I'm a licensed professional counselor specializing in perinatal or maternal mental health. Most of my practice is working with moms throughout their pregnancy journey, as I like to call it, and beyond. So I get moms at five or six weeks pregnant sometimes, and then I would say a subspecialty of that is working moms. And then I would say, you know, a subspecialty of that is working moms. So I would say most of the moms I work with now have part time to full time jobs, so they're trying to balance all of that as well.
Lauren:That's great. You sound exactly like the therapist I am now seeing. They only specialize in women and specifically women in that area of like pregnancy through childbirth and I guess the changes that occur. One thing you know I never went to therapy before I became a mother and now I'm in therapy and I feel like a lot of this podcast is about like how your identity or your entire life shifts when you have a kid.
Rachel, LPC:Yeah, and just the fact that you know we get to become moms, and which is nice, you know. I don't know, we, you, you can lose yourself in in being quote, just a mom. Or you can be a mom and you know, a writer, a mom and a therapist, mom and an artist, you know.
Lauren:I think that's the hardest transition, for me especially. You know our society isn't set up for women to be both. And you know, if you are a full-time working mom, I have friends who are, like you know, big. You know my one friend's a criminal defense attorney. Like she's like in court, like she, and like with you you have clients. You can't just not show up. So I for her she probably wrestles with more just like not even guilt, but just like I wish I could spend more time with my kid, but I can't, whereas like someone like me is like I have the time but I don't really want to spend it with you. But I also like can't go back to the corporate life I had because and I think women wrestle with that idea of the identity. And I was out to dinner the other night. Someone asked me what, because, and I think women wrestle with that idea of the identity. And I was out to dinner the other night and someone asked me what I did and I was like I'm a writer, like I would never say mom.
Rachel, LPC:And that's the other thing I've been ruminating on. Can the question you asked me? That stumped me. Can you get validation from your kids?
Lauren:Let's go back. If we're going to do this evolutionary thing, if women are prone to give life, you would think it would. You would think it would, yeah, yeah. You would think it should, because it's like I have to do this. We're the only ones who can do it procreate, we give birth. You would think that that could fulfill us, and I don't know if it's a societal thing. We have too much access to possibilities.
Rachel, LPC:I don't know well, it's, you know, it's the way they um, we have access to information and we're talking. I don't know if you know the lore around the term gossip, but I got really into this a couple years ago and it's such a patriarchal term. It's meant to kind of keep women from stopping sharing information. If you look at the history of gossip, there's a whole podcast called normal gossip. She talks about it, but I'm obsessed with this idea. It's like gossip, don't be talking, and it's. It was a way for women to share information. It's like you do need to know about this person.
Lauren:So crazy, cause I love your mom so much.
Emily:How do you guys did she just like follow you on Instagram and get connected? Yeah, that's so funny.
Lauren:What age are your kids right now? Three and 18 months, yeah, so you're in it. I'm in it.
Lauren:Yeah, like it's not always going to be physically this hard and like Emily, when I say I'm mentally unwell, I'm mentally and physically unwell, like this is. I woke up. My daughter got up out of her bed at 2 am asking for her freaking book. I was like, what are you talking about my other one's getting up at 5 30, which wakes the other one up? So now my case. And it's just, it's been like this for a month and I'm at a point of like, when does this end? I am not, I can't, and so I get very triggered too and it's like, oh, you need to be happy. And I'm, I can't. And so I get very triggered too and it's like, oh, you need to be happy, and I'm like I can't be happy in this, in this you guys are.
Emily:You don't have to be happy. Things as a parenting are literally just get through it. I'm Emily. I'm 37. I've got four kids. They're all in elementary school right now. So they're in grades K two, four and 6.
Emily:It's my magic year where I have one drop-off, which has been amazing, and right now I'm kind of in a hybrid stay-at-home mom. I work really part-time for our family construction business that my husband and I are taking over from my father-in-law, which has been a godsend because it was an established business, so we have a little more flexibility than if we were starting our own business from scratch. Established business, so we have a little more flexibility than if we were starting our own business from scratch, you know. So I've been able to work part-time, kind of in a project basis the last year or two, so I don't have to be there every single day. I can kind of come in and blast some workout and then still be able to do the kids stuff and keeping up the house and, you know, planning meals for six people every single day. I hate the meal thing. Just that piece alone is a part-time job.
Lauren:I saw a Maya Angelou I think it was either Maya Angelou or Toni Morrison and they said what's the hardest part of your life? And they thought she was going to do something so profound. She's making dinner. I truly cannot think of what to make for dinner every night. I hate it In Malibu, actually.
SAHM:Oh, you're in Malibu. Yeah, we were just shut down by the fires In school. The kids were out of school 20 days, the month of January. It was insane. I was going out of my mind and I started the new year with a book, a list of everything I was going to achieve, and it was like boom, completely blew up.
Lauren:How dare you think that you could do that? That's literally the mantra. I mean just complete mess. I swear anytime I'm like yeah, this is my plan for the day my daughter gets sick.
SAHM:I'm Charlene. I'm 54 years old I can't even believe how old I am and I have two kids, two daughters, 15 and about to be 14. So I had my kids later in life, which is another part of the story. But I'm a career woman. I've been a fashion designer my whole career and I recently closed my business. I started a business in 2016 and we went bankrupt last year, so I'm very sad. So now I'm out in the job market looking to rejoin the corporate world, which has been quite a transition. So I've been a stay at home mom for about seven months, which is making me crazy.
Lauren:So I want to. By the way, I see the sewing machines and I need to like know about what that is, because I used to like sewing a lot.
Priscilla:Oh, really, yeah. So I'm a custom clothing designer and I've been doing this all my life and that's a part of, like you know, the stay at home journey and me being able to do that.
Lauren:If I ever had more money, I would love someone to just make me clothes in that from that era yeah, I have patterns from that era. I need to talk later and I might need to get your business in.
Priscilla:Yeah, for sure. So my name is Priscilla, I am 41 years old and I have a seven year old. I am a stay at home mom and I am also a clothing designer, and that has not always been the case. I started out as being stay-at-home, thinking oh, I'm just gonna, you know, look for a job when I'm feeling better, right? Quote-unquote. And then reality hits.
Lauren:So I reached. You know, all these women reach out to me, and then the main woman I want to talk to is stay at home moms, cause I was like I know, yeah, and so what's your fascination here?
Rachel, LPC:This is very interesting to me too. Sorry, I had like so many thoughts after the last time we talked, but then I went right into a client, so then they got like stuck somewhere, you know, and then so anyway. So what, what's your fast? Because I actually am fascinated with them, also fascinated on the same way, but it could be, I think, for me at least I figured out it's a projection of like I could literally never do that. I even found maternity leave painful, not the second time, but the first time, because my brain just wasn't being engaged. So anyway.
Lauren:So I think it's a projection oh no, so I was telling them it's not coming from a place of judgment. I'm trying to ask you, how do you do it?
Rachel, LPC:because I'm really watching how, how okay, so you relate off.
Lauren:You go, you are pregnant, you have your third now and you become. You take your kids out of school, you become, stay at home yes, but we kept that.
Emily:So he was born in July and we decided to keep the other two.
Emily:They were in full day preschool and we bumped it down to half days so they were there, you know, 8 30 to noon, which still gave me a chunk of time with just me and baby, and that was a really balance. I've never been the mom that wants to stay home full time with all of my I have four kids. It was never my journey to be like a homeschool mom and be home full time All along. This wonderful woman who has helped us since my first was about eight months old and she comes just like two or three days a week for a couple hours and will like run a few loads of laundry, clear the sink of dishes, she can start dinner if I need her to, and that has helped keep me sane as well. And, again, like I feel very thankful that I have the ability to do that, my mother-in-law actually helps sponsor a good chunk of that like expense. So, yeah, I was stay at home but I support and I wasn't like a by myself 24 hours a day with three children.
Lauren:And then I think you're being I think you're being very, very like hard on yourself. To me you're that stay at home, like that is a normal experience, like your kids go to preschool, but like to me it's like, yes, in the house, right you're. You're still with the baby, you're still expected to do everything you are like, like I was still full-time with a baby.
Lauren:Yeah, yeah, you were staying at home, like, I would assume, most people. Hopefully, if you have multiple children, have some type of support, so one, I think that dispels. So that's one question Do women with means I'm not saying extraordinary means, but if they can do you think a lot of these stay-at-home moms with four kids have people coming in to?
Emily:help do? I think they have it. Um, because I'm just like, how do you do it? Like I'm trying to figure, I don't, I don't know, because I also don't know how people have multiple kids without at least one set of grandparents in town. Like my in-laws are in town and very involved and helpful. They like sponsor summer camps, they help with, like paying for piano lessons, ballet, sports, like they supplement all of that because the cost of living is insane without any extras. Like we don't really go on vacation, um, in order to have a little extra help. Um, and I think I don't know how you do it without literally going nuts, like losing your mind, if you don't have not just one layer of support, but like several layers of support.
Lauren:So you were never a stay-at-home mom during the young years. You've always worked.
SAHM:Yeah, yeah. No, I was at that peak of my career. I worked at Victoria's Secret for 14 years and I was head of design. When I had my girls and I went straight back to work, I was like I didn't take like a day over four weeks. I was just like I'm back, I'm back, I'm back, I'm back.
Lauren:Do you feel like you did that because either you loved work so much or you were just like I'm gonna have the child, but like that is not my identity, I'm going like it wasn't like oh OK, both like I and also is really competitive.
SAHM:It was a great job and, like I mean, it was painful being pregnant, because you're kind of a lame duck. The minute that you announce your pregnancy, like definitely everybody in the company is like they want your job. It's a great job. It's a great job. It's a great time for everybody to be seen without you in between. So, and then you're like, part of my job was really traveling, like I travel all the time everywhere around the globe, and so once I wasn't able to get on a plane, I was like missing a lot of work, it was painful, and so I wanted to get right back to work. I also was like I just was not a baby mom. I, I traveled a lot and I would be overseas for weeks at a time, and so I did feel a little guilty. Then, um, you have a nanny, or did your?
SAHM:husband kind of pick up I had a nanny um and she she was great um and you know. But in those years a lot of you know you talked about your husband judging you like I had a really big job, you know, I had like a seven-figure job so I could afford all of those things and and we were afforded a really good lifestyle between both of us working. But he was always like he loved my job, he fell in love with me because of my passion for my work, but he was very judgy on the amount that I was, in his terms, delegating to the nanny um, but he couldn't really tell me no, because I was affording it.
Lauren:You know it's like well, that's the dichotomy. It's like if he's making the money but I'm not. But I still want to work.
SAHM:Right. Well that that all that whole thing changed around when I started my own business and then we filed bankruptcy. So now I'm like a stay at home mom with no income. It sucks. I'm like it sucks. And even my daughter, my eldest daughter, the other weekend I I did something I was like over I don't know. I think I cleaned out a closet or something I'd never do, and she was like mom, you've got to go back to work. It's like she's now saying that in front of my husband, but it's like I'm sure that I'm going to have to go through a whole nother learning curve because now he's used to me like you know, like cooking dinner and doing stuff that I've never had time to do when I was working.
Lauren:Does it give you more of a new perspective on working moms, even if it's a bad perspective, like wow, yeah, this would have sucked. Or like, do you feel like the loss of power? Like, what are your general feelings now that you're home with no income, Kind of reliant?
SAHM:I mean this sucks. I mean I just I mean I haven't not had my own income since I was like 19 years old. You know, even in college I always had a side hustle. In college I always wanted my own cash, Like it was just a form of independence. College, I always wanted my own cash, like it was just a form of independence. So I wouldn't recommend this to anyone. But I'm, I've got to work, so that's me like that's just the compulsion.
Lauren:I got to get out of the house, I got to work. I got to find a different source of validation than this, right, I'm just so curious how these women find validation. Like I go psycho on the weekends. I'm like this is I hate it. Like I hate this hour straight with my children.
SAHM:Like yeah, when, when, when my kids were young, I mean before, before fourth, at least fourth grade I just hated weekends.
Lauren:Oh no, it's terrible. You just I get like PTSD.
SAHM:Oh God, it's crazy. Yeah, oh no, it's terrible. You just, I get like.
Lauren:PTSD. Oh God, it's crazy. Yeah, that's when I'm like wait, people actively choose to do this for their whole lives. And my question is just like one I think it, I know it's a choice, because I have friends who have quit their jobs to do it and I always go do you know what you're getting into? And I really do say that because I do think a lot of times you've it's like that first excitement of like joy and whatever.
SAHM:But I'm like that's gonna fade real fast, like, in my opinion, maybe that's just me, like it would. Just no, it's, it's terrible. Have you ever it's like been? It's been the hardest, like six, seven months now of my, my adult life since, since the babies were young and like trying to find validation, trying to do anything that has meaning, and because I just don't I mean I hate to even say it out loud, but I just I don't hold those things, don't hold value to me.
Lauren:We can't say them out loud, and that's what I want to do. They just don't hold value to me. We can't say them out loud, and that's what I want to do.
SAHM:Those- things don't hold value to me, so that's okay. It doesn't mean you don't love me, it's not about. You know how much money I earn even. It's just that I don't get validation.
Lauren:Beginning, how did you kind of like mentally cope or like do your days? Because I had mine in daycare by six months and then obviously things changed, but like I've never had to be fully home for months and you clearly had a husband who was traveling a lot, like I just want to know how you did it like, did you have like other mom friends routines?
Priscilla:put so much pressure on myself being like, okay, so I am a stay-at-home mom, so I have to do a through z every day and that's not the case. You know, um, you know I was making the food. I was. You know, I did all the baby food. If you whatever you call it granola almond mom I was that I was. I did the breastfeeding for over a year. You know I did the um, but this, this, I think this was just genetics where I just had a really great supply. I was blessed in that area.
Priscilla:But, like you know, I was doing the, the food, the baby food, and, uh, I made so much stuff for him. You know the, the wooden toys and the belly time and the like. I was obsessed also with which I love. Like, I was obsessed also with which I love I love knowing at what stage, like the developmental process, I became, like, really interested in that. I was like, okay, six, between six months and nine months, this is going to happen. So let's work on these things. And you know, when it comes to, you know, don't push them into walking, just do this kind of stuff. And for potty trading, you know when I tell you Pinterest was my like a secret weapon. That was like my auntie. I was calling every day, asking like, asking like. So, looking back, um, yeah, it was. It was really tough and but.
Lauren:I. I really took it on as, like, this is my job. So I reached, you know, all these women reached out to me and then the main woman I want to talk to is stay-at-home moms, because I was, like, I know, so annoying, was it? All these women were like I'm a stay-at-home mom, I'm a stay-at-home mom, I'm a stay-at-home mom, I'll talk to you and we would talk, and all of them have side hustles, and I was like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So you aren't. And anytime I was like so you're a stay-at-home mom, she's like well, no, I mean I'm now getting and entering. And I was like okay, so like, but one interesting that they don't want to define themselves that way. Two, they're not stay-at-home moms. Because, like well, the one girl was like so. Then I was like all right, let's backtrack here. How, when you had your baby, did you want to stay home? And like that's where we started.
Emily:You were a stay-at-home mom for like the first no, so initially my first one, uh, my daughter, um, I got married young, at age 22, and had my first kid at 24, which in California is like basically child bride status. Like there were no people my age doing that and I was working full time for an IT company and I ended up being able to kind of come up with like a work from home, part time transition. So I got my like six weeks of paid leave and then was able to do like part time from home for like another month or two and then went back to full time. But they let me bring her with me, which now I'm like why did I do that to myself? Like me now that has like boundaries and perspective and like is willing to pause and like think about what I'm doing before I make decisions. Like that was insane. They didn't pay me enough to afford daycare so I had to bring my baby with me to work in order to like keep working.
Lauren:It was crazy and like when you quit after your second and you were a full-time mom. I need to just know, like how that was okay.
Emily:So I didn't quit. I was actually laid off. They like eliminated my position okay, which honestly was the best thing ever because I qualified for unemployment, and so it kind of carried me for a little while while we adjusted to going down to one income for a while. It kind of gave us a floater couple of months for that, because I don't think that I could have come to that decision on my own and I honestly think it was like God or the universe kind of nudging me in that direction. Like you're overstretched is too much.
Lauren:You're pregnant with your third, like it's time, so here you go, you expecting to stay home, or did you have him, and then go like, oh my god, I love this. I don't ever want to go like leave him um no, it was like I had said.
Priscilla:It was like I'm gonna have, you know, I know their pregnancy is gonna be crazy. So, uh, I was in a position where I I didn't have to work, my husband was in a good position, like he was on this trajectory with his position at the time, and so, um, it was like all these exciting things are happening, I'm pregnant, you know, jobs going good for for my husband, and so I was like, okay, so at this time I know it seems like to me, it seems forever ago, like seven, eight years ago, thinking about like, I put that aside. It was like, okay, we'll just focus on the pregnancy, you know, have my son. And then I knew that the beginning was going to be tough, but I didn't obviously didn't know how tough. And so, once I started adding things together and like, okay, a trajectory of like, when I'm gonna start looking for a job at this point? Um, also, mind you, I'm making wedding dresses at this point. So my like, this side hustle is actually got momentum right now.
Priscilla:So I'm pregnant, making wedding dresses, I have my child making a wedding dress, and like, but then, all of a sudden, it's just like this is a lot like I'm having to create and design, like at any nap time, or you know, as soon as he goes down to sleep, I'm like in the studio and so it was like, okay, well, I need to look for a job. And so I'm like looking, and then I'm, then child care comes and it's like wait a minute, so if I go back to work, I'm going back to work to pay for child care. So what am I doing? Yeah, yeah, like that doesn't make economic sense, right?
Lauren:or like for your mental well, I think for some women and this is what what it is for me is my child care was 100% the same amount, maybe more than my salary, like it's like five grand to you know and this is me just being, you know, a writer and it was like for me it was like I'd rather pay the money. I'd rather work than be in the house with them. It was like I'd rather pay the money to I'd rather work than be in the house with them. And I think that's just the different mindsets of two women which also made me feel really guilty, because I'm like I'm literally like losing money. I'm losing money sending my kids away.
Lauren:But I realized after, like my first, I did stay home with her for a while I was like, oh, I don't, this is harder than I don't. I'm not getting the same satisfaction I need out of this. So I feel like that's where the two split. So it's either you're working, you're like wait, why am I doing this? But you still like to work and like keep your mind active, but you're like I can't rationalize the cost of child care and being away from them. So when you, so you basically were like I'd rather stay home than spend all the money outside of the house to have my son go away. Is that kind of Right, right? So all of them, I found out, had a dream of staying home or was like, okay, this pregnancy is intense, you're making enough money, or something would happen with the job. And they were like very like fine with staying home.
Lauren:And then what always happened with three of the six women were I can't do this get on is like, this is my job you know, and then I assume what happened was is my job, you know, and then I assume what happened was it as much as you were great at it, as much as it fulfilled you to see his development by like a year, it just it wasn't, it still wasn't enough for you yeah, before a year.
Priscilla:But I was like I was suffering through it. I wasn't telling anybody like I, I need to get out of here. You know, I weren't telling anyone, I wasn't yeah, um, and it finally came to a point, funny story. So, really good, girlfriend of mine, a couple of us, uh, we were going out to there's. We live in Atlanta, so Fox Theater, we're gonna go see Aladdin. It's like one of the first times I'm out with the girls. Okay, like a very simple night and I'm going through it and I'm like talking about the reality of being a mom, I was like I'm so tired. Everything, the shit is hitting the fan y'all. I'm like I have to do this, I have to do that and this is happening and that is happening. And it's like you know, um, oh, and don't forget, you have a husband like don't forget to have sex.
Lauren:Shave your legs yeah, Even though you can hardly like get in the shower. Yes, Make sure you look good.
Priscilla:Yeah, like also, like you know, and talking about going to the, always having the baby with you to go to the bathroom.
Lauren:I remember that, putting her on like a seat, and then I was just like trying to shave as quickly as she before she started screaming and being like what is my life?
Priscilla:And so I'm like venting, like y'all have no idea, that's the, that's the conversation I'm having. So my friend Inbar, she, she was like they're both like deer in headlights. My both of them hadn't had kids yet and my friend Inbar was like like well, I'm pregnant, y'all. It was like I'm not gonna say it was postpartum, but it was just like I've heard this I think we hear this term a lot more now, thankfully is like you know, you, I was grieving the loss of a life and so, when it was, it wasn't up until 10 months that I finally was like, okay, we need to put him in, we need to put him somewhere, I need a break.
Priscilla:Because I put I don't think, well, he didn't realize like what was happening at home and I'd be like you know, he's like not sleeping or he's teething, and this happened and that happened and blah, blah, blah, you know. And so I had to really sit him down and be like, okay, look, you have to come to the park with us. I don't care if you had client meetings and you're tired, and you guys partied all night and like this, this is what we need to do. My body has changed. I don't see my friends. I'm talking to a child that cannot respond to me. I'm not.
Emily:So I remember there was one night where he would not stop screaming at like three in the morning it had been an hour and I was so tapped Like I didn't have. I never had like an hour to myself. I was always producing and like external, like pushing energy out and never having it poured back into me, and I was like below zero on my tank and I remember like tossing him on the bed, you know, rougher than I would, like he was fine, I didn't get hurt, but like it really scared me. And then I like went in the living room and got in the fetal position and like couldn't breathe and was like what is happening? This has never happened to me before. And so, like I got my husband and I was like something is like, this is not OK, I am not OK, I don't know what's happening, but I think I need to go to therapy and figure this out.
Emily:Um, and I think a big part of the panic attacks is that condition of like giving out and not receiving, to the point of like complete and utter depletion where I'm like not even a person anymore, I'm just like a shell of someone going through the motions and trying to survive each day and like um, I had. So that was like initially what it was from and then I think it was about three years ago I started to have them again and it was less like a physical panic attack and more like what I describe as like thought tornadoes, where, like I would just start swirling, like I could visualize the thoughts in my head like tornadoing above my head and I like couldn't get out of them and just like darker and darker thoughts of like what is the point of even anything?
Lauren:you know, point of even anything you know. So I feel like I was going over our your intro and you did mention you work mainly. You know you deal with the pregnancy and women after birth. But a lot of the moms you see are working, or at least part-time. And that's me, because I was like, well, now that I've uncovered this world of stay-at-home moms, technically most moms who even stay at home are working out like on something.
Rachel, LPC:Yeah, I did. I did have a few stay-at-home moms that I worked with. Historically, however, they were not what I would call like consenting stay-at-home moms. They both left positions because, you know, child care didn't work. I think sometimes if you have a partner that has I call these like the intense jobs consultant, lawyer, doctor or banking sometimes right, if you have a partner that works in those arenas, you sort of have to take the back seat. So that means you get a job that's super flexible or you take a step back, and that's two of the cases. That's what it was. They were sort of non-consenting, non-stay-at-home moms both of them and they had twins oh god, okay, that's a triple whammy.
Lauren:Um, I could talk about twins. We'll do that on the next one. Um, when you saw these women, what were they experiencing? Was it like that resentment?
Rachel, LPC:Yeah, and just a feeling, I can do more than this. I love my kids. I've loved spending time raising them in some cases, but I can do more than this. You know they were college educated. They had previous work experience. A lot of times they were. You know they had creative energy which is hard to use in this, in the stay-at-home mom arena, I think.
Emily:It is really hard to, once you go all in on being home. It's really hard to then shift back into kind of a professional mindset and like having set hours is so hard with young kids.
Lauren:It really feels hard to like have a day, like to know that the day is mine, she goes yeah, you need to give that up like that's an exception, that's dead.
Emily:That's another thing that people don't talk about. This is one of the things I wrote down, and motherhood is like the grief piece of it that comes with the joy when you have a baby, and especially if you have multiple babies, there is a death of your old self. That happens, that nobody warns you about, and like you feel guilty when you feel sad, or like that feeling of loss in the middle of like looking at this perfect angel baby that you made and you're like how did I get so lucky to like have this human that I'm in charge of, but also there's so much that changes and that you lose. Like you don't ever sleep as deeply, you just don't. Even when your kids are older, you don't get that same like off switch because your mind is ready for them literally their dna is in your brain.
Emily:microchimerism have you heard of that? Yes. Or like pieces of their DNA remain in your body and in your brain, like you're connected with them. You don't get that same feeling of like belonging to yourself, like every decision for the rest of your life comes with a layer of like how will it affect them? Or like where will they be when I'm doing this? Or like you know and there is grief that comes with that that a lot of women either aren't prepared for or don't know how to deal with it because people aren't talking about it.
Lauren:You're changing and you're forced to change, whether it's, you know, good or bad, but I think it ultimately is always for the better. But to find that peace that you have, you have to go through that kind of like I don't want to say explosion, but that no, it's like it's ripping.
Priscilla:You're ripping apart, you're being ripped apart and you're freaking out because you don't know what to do. Because I feel like we kind of are in the same boat, where it's like we've always had control and now we have no control and now we have to let go.
Priscilla:And that is so vulnerable and it's and it's scary and and you feel you feel so alone, even though you have someone in the home that you married
Lauren:and so, like six months in there's a reckoning and that's what I like call it to them'm like this reckoning, whether it's like they're like the husband and them have like a major thing she has a breakdown, starts having pain. All of them go to therapy. Now, every single woman I've talked to and I was like that's very interesting.
Emily:Kid is figuring out things that like bring you joy and bring you to life. And it's the same thing for marriage, like joy and bring you to life. And the same thing for marriage like the more you can individuate within those roles. So, like you are a mom and you are a wife, but you're also just like a woman on earth that, like, has passions and wants to feel joy and like I think a lot of women feel guilty taking time and energy to focus on that. But that has literally saved my life, trying to figure out what makes me come alive and brings me joy.
Emily:And it's not always the most convenient thing for everyone else for mom to leave the house for a couple hours or whatever. I just think marriage, children, life, work by design, will take every ounce that you offer them, to the point where 100% of you is gone. And it is your job, our job as mothers and wives and women, to reserve and protect a portion of ourselves that is purely for us. I was just going to say we're talking about boundaries, but like yeah, understanding you have kids, look for us.
Lauren:I was just going to say we're talking about boundaries was like, yeah, understanding you have kids, look for them. And I think what happens is women lose their own boundaries in the process of creating these boundaries for everyone else, as in like, oh, let me make sure I have the right boundaries, let me make sure this and this, and then it's like you have not set up anything to protect that space of who you are as a woman.
Emily:Yeah, and one of the first things I learned in therapy my most recent go-around um, when I started having panic attacks again, um about like three years ago was um, what was my oh? One day my therapist. I was like complaining about all the things that were on my plate and she was just like what can you fire yourself from? Like what could you drop? And the world won't end. And I think that's sometimes a helpful starting place, like, as women, we tend to just like fill in every single gap that's available and you don't actually have to do that. And it's not like weaponized incompetence, where you're like intentionally sabotaging things, but like well, I think it's a lot easier than done to let the dish, let the dirty dishes pile up.
Lauren:That's what it is. It's like, okay, I was talking to my therapist about this. I was like I have one hour before I need to get the kids. By the way, this therapy is taking an hour, so like I feel guilty about that, and then I'll have one hour before I need to pick up the kids. I know that the laundry is not done, I know that the dishwasher is unpacked, but I also know I haven't written today and I want to write. So I'm either gonna feel guilty about not doing the chores or resentful for not writing.
Lauren:And she was like well, you're just gonna have to pick which emotion you're more comfortable with and what's going to true and and that's what it comes down to and it's like we need and I need to learn to give up, like the dishes are just not going to be done. The problem is I was talking to someone else. She's like oh yeah, my husband's so messy, like my issue. I was like my problem is my husband isn't messy, so he doesn't. Like if I don't do it, he'll do it, and then resentment builds in you.
Emily:Yes, that is a skill that I have had to develop as, like a people pleasing good girl in my younger years. Like I don't care anymore, I'm happy to say no if I don't have capacity. But there was a point in my motherhood and marriage where, like I didn't know that I could do that without like world falling apart or someone being mean to me or whatever. I was just so scared.
Lauren:It's like you're so scared of that judgment. And then the judgment comes, and then you realize it's not that bad, it's like you're mad at me.
SAHM:Sorry, I'm okay, I'm sorry and I think for the most part, really, my relationship suffered the most with my husband because all the hours that I opened up went to the baby or to, like me, trying to get a moment of exercise or or a moment of like I don't know hair done or I don't know, you know things like that you know things like that.
Lauren:I mean I don't know if you like follow the news that are listening like the first episode, my relationship, is what has started this whole journey because, like, when you have a baby, you set off an explosion in your marriage. Like, yes, and it is completely different, and that is something I'm still I mean my daughter's only three but, like you're, I'm like everyone keeps reminding me like this is just part of it, which is why I named the podcast part of it, because I'm like this is not good. I did not. Am I getting divorced?
SAHM:like it's just, like it's so hard it's so, it is so hard, especially nobody talks about that no one talks about it especially if they like the whole American dream world. Dream you know you have babies and like oh, and I'm like no.
Lauren:I'm the least fulfilled. I'm having major issues. Yeah, it's disastrous. I think it goes down to like we were sold on a dream, but the dream was you as a accept that things are not going to go how you want them to.
Priscilla:And just because it doesn't happen right now doesn't mean it's not going to happen later. But it took a lot of like I had to pay, like I was parenting myself, like I had to, like I was parenting myself. I love that and that's what you realize hopefully many of us realize, when we have a child and you're going through the motions and you know you always hear model behavior, model behavior. And then when you're going off on your kid, because it happens, you know, and it's like wait a minute, that's not how I want him to see me. And so then like things just start to come into perspective. It does not happen overnight.
Priscilla:It takes so long, like I'm finally in a place where I'm like I'm good, like I'm happy with the decisions I've made, I'm happy with, like the little places that we're in, like, as far as you know, me and my husband and me and my child and us as a family. And it took so long for us to get that momentum and because for a while, you know, it was just like we're beating heads because our husbands or whoever our you know partner is, they didn't have to go through the physical changes of having a child. They didn't have to go through the physical changes of having a child. They didn't have to go through the physical birthing of a child like, yes, they were there and hopefully they were supportive, um, but nothing. Nothing really changes for them. You know, they go back to work and they have their friends and we're having to reconnect.
Lauren:A new identity. So they're the same people, and that's where I am. What you're talking about, that clashing, that's where I am.
SAHM:So the only guilt I ever had was the guilt that my husband was putting on me for like, and I think he fought with it too. I don't think he wanted to put that guilt on me, but he was raised by a stay-at-home mom, you know, and so it's like, and she's amazing and you know well, my husband was not.
Lauren:You went to boarding school and I still feel that pressure because I think he wants what he didn't have. So it's like that's why I'm like we're going to couples counseling, because I think you're unconsciously projecting on me things that you want that I'm not going to give to you and that is very hard dynamic to work through because, yeah, like whether you're raised by a stay-at-home mom but you didn't have like this, like stable mother figure, I think there's a certain like you're the mom, I want the mom in the house and I don't think he expects me to be home but he expects me to pick up where there's gaps. So I reach you know, all these women reach out to me and the main woman I want to talk to is stay-at-home and we have a talk and all of them have side hustles.
Rachel, LPC:You know what? I think there's a new thing now because again we have so many different options for how to work. There is the stay at home working mom, which I think you sound like you talk to.
Lauren:Finally, yesterday I got a girl and I was waiting for her. Kids are grown full, stay at home, but her youngest is 19. And she was like had four. And she was like I was that friend that you were talking about. She has four kids, that's her life. Like there is no side hustle, there's nothing else, it's the kids. And she basically was like look, my dream was to have kids. I wasn't invested in a career. And then it's like, of course, by the end of this hour conversation it was like and she's like interesting Okay.
Lauren:I really hate to be the person to leave you hanging, but there's just too much to get to and there's too many women to talk to and I just I could talk to these women forever. So the next episode will be sooner than two weeks, or even a week. It could even drop tomorrow, just like how much I can get done and if my daughter does not get sick. So keep a lookout, I am going to talk to the full stay-at-home mom and get her full take on it.