Eva Birthistle on Why Women Make Better Leaders| Your SISTERLY Fix

Bad Sisters star Eva Birthistle joins Orla Chennaoui for an honest conversation about female leadership, imposter syndrome, motherhood, therapy and finally finding the confidence to use your voice.

Eva reveals how writing and directing Kathleen Is Here forced her to rethink what leadership really looks like. She explains why the strongest directors are not always the loudest, why admitting “I don’t know” can build trust, and why women may be more comfortable asking questions instead of pretending to have every answer.

The conversation also explores self-criticism, watching yourself on screen, the pressure to be liked, raising confident children, changing opportunities for women in television and the success of Bad Sisters. Eva also opens up about working with Sharon Horgan, learning to accept herself and what she ultimately hopes will define her life.
A funny, vulnerable and empowering conversation about confidence, friendship, parenting and finding your voice.

#foryou #women #womenempowerment #podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Women are I think better at saying I don't know. Yes, I don't know. Hands up, I don't know the answer to that. And I think men historically wing it and won't admit that they don't know. And through winging it, sometimes you get away with it by the skin of your teeth, but sometimes you a lot of the time you really don't. I mean, it's okay to say, I understand what you've done, but I don't like it. I I I appreciate the work that you've put in, but it's actually not what I asked you to do. And that's different. And it's finding the confidence that I, you know, that's where I'm having to kind of go, okay, that saying, you know, articulating yourself in that way isn't going to upset them. It's not gonna, well, it might a bit, but it doesn't matter if they don't like you for the day, the rest of the day.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Today's guest is a multi-award-winning actress. She's also a writer, a director. She starred alongside legends such as Mia Faro, Cyr Sha Ronin, Killian Murphy, Colin Farrell, and you maybe know her best latterly for starring as Ursula Garvey in the Smash Hit International series Bad Sisters. It's Eva Bertha, so. Welcome. Thank you. It's genuinely an honor to have you here. We've not met before, but I feel like I know you because I've followed your career for such a long time. And I'm genuinely obsessed with Bad Sisters. Yeah. Like next level obsession. Not just the drama, the writing, the acting, but the fact it exists.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

I know. You're not alone, which is really good. It was a hit because I think a lot of people had the same response. Because it's yeah, it's kind of a glorious show. Like Sharon Horgan, I think just she knows, I don't know, she just knows what people need or want, and she writes about stuff that she knows and uh moves her or she finds funny, and it's just that whole combination. She always just comes up with like the most beautiful, juiciest scripts and characters, and you know, and then produces excellent TV like Bad Sisters. So yeah, it's been an absolute joy.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, I think you got it right when you say she knows what people need. Yeah, I don't even know if it's what we wanted because we don't know that we want and need such a strong female cast. But for me, when it came along as it did, it just felt so refreshing and energizing to see multi-layered women who brought something different to every personality. Yes, but every one of them so strong and such strong performances.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Yeah, but isn't it funny? Because once you see it, you know, on TV or show similar kind of showing a few wonderful shows out there that have strong female casts like that. But it's like, why did it take so long? Yeah, exactly. Of course we want this. Why is it such a surprise? We like this, of course we like it, you know. Well, why did it take so long? But thankfully she did it, and I think you know, she she writes characters that are relatable, you know, and they I think because of um you know, she she got the right cast for it as well. They felt like a real family, and you know, there was sort of something for everybody in it. You know, if you didn't have a sister, you probably had a sibling. If you didn't, you had cousins like that, or you had best friends like that. So it's lovely meeting people who felt like they could, you know, either relate to the a singular character, like, oh, I'm like Ursula, or I'm like Biber, or they're like my sisters. I think that was a lot of the response to it as well. It's like, oh, this is familiar and that's really gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

It was so rounded, and also what I loved about it was that, and I'd forgotten this actually till we're sitting here chatting, but it was my husband who introduced me to it. And I spend quite a bit of time, not but for work anyway. When I'm working, I'm away from home. I live in Amsterdam and I work in London a lot. And so I'd been away for this uh three-week stint, and my husband was at home in Amsterdam and he said, I've just found this series that you're gonna absolutely love. And he found a way to stream it on both of our devices at the same time. Yeah. So we would sit down after I come in from the studio, I'd lie down on the sofa, he'd lie down in Amsterdam with the kids in bed, and we'd watch it together, but we could see our faces at the same time. I don't, I don't even we've not done it before our stints, it was just for bad sisters. Yeah. So we'd sit and watch it together. Together, week by week. It was absolutely beautiful. Anyway, um, I want to begin really with asking you some questions that have been asked your dear friend Alison. Okay. So these are a variation on Mr. and Mrs. quiz, sister from another mister. And I'd love you to try to guess at what her answers are going to be. I don't know if you know what the questions are, even, but I'll get to it. So the first question is I've got a strip. Oh yeah. What do you think Alison would have said that she loves about you?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Um I think she would possibly say um having the crack with me, like having a lot of it. Is that what she's doing? Yes, okay, great.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

She said it's your uh sense of fun. Okay, great. Yeah, yeah. So you've had a lot of fun with Alison. A lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

And very recently, just last week, we went away for a couple of nights and had a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Amazing. Her next question was uh what your ridiculous habit would be. You see.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

There's baggage coming, I can see lit. Very defensive answer. I don't think it's ridiculous. Um, I don't, I don't know if I have any ridiculous habits. Okay. But if she asked my husband, if she had the good sense to ask, I don't know what she said. Okay. But if she couldn't think of any, she might have called my husband, who she's also friendly with. And he probably has a list of really annoying habits, but I don't know if that's the same. Because I don't think about like I've got weird, like stupid things that I do. You know, like if I'm walking home to my house, I will get my cut my keys out about 300 yards away. I do it every time. So like and I walk for ages with my keys to open. So it's not a defensive thing in case you're attacked. No, it's like at nine o'clock in the morning after the school drop off. I always get my keys out really early. So like things like that are just like, I don't know if that's that's pretty ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Okay, no, that's not a good one. She wouldn't know anything. She won't know anything. Okay. What does she say? She said overstretching yourself. Did she mean physically?

SPEAKER_00 6:17

She's overstretching yourself again. You stop stretching. It's really unnormal. I like to stretch someone. You can do this even though I can get over it. I can kick, I can stretch. Um over stretching myself. Does that ring true? Oh, well, I s yes, but I think we mmm is that ridiculous though.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

I wouldn't think so, but I'm an I think you're a stretcher.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yes. Um, I probably do. I probably give myself a bit of a hard time for not doing things well enough, I think, you know. So I might sort of try and do lots of things and then go, oh, I didn't do any of them well. So that maybe that she might be she might be tapping into that a bit.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Well, actually, because that leads to the next question, which is what should you give up?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Oh, like being hard on myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Is that what she said? Yeah, she did. I'm gonna get to that because I found that really interesting. But I do want to ask the last question, which is what fills your cup? What would she say? She might say alcohol.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

But she's probably filling the cup. She's sitting beside me and we both are full cups.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

I mean, it's related, but no, she said friendships. Oh, fine, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yeah. You could have gotten away with that. Friendships, yeah, that's true. My pals. My pals fill my cup, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

No, I want to go back to what you said though about being hard on yourself. Because I was reading quite a few interviews with you, and I find it really interesting that that's one thing that keeps coming up. And you've recently written and directed your own movie. Yes. This is Kathleen. Yeah, Kathleen is here. Kathleen is here, my apologies. Kathleen is here. Um and what you said in the interviews about that was that you you were trying really hard not to suffer from imposter syndrome when it came to the directing in particular. Yeah. And I guess I'm guilty of falling into this trap of having seen your beautiful face on television for a long time. You're an incredible actress. You assume that other people don't suffer from this in the same way. And I wonder what it is, what standard it is that you're holding yourself to that you sometimes maybe feel that you don't reach.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Well, I think it's I know, I mean, I think it's maybe a bit of an actor trait. I know a lot of actors that are insecure because we sort of, I think the nature of our work a lot of the time is putting ourselves out there and getting rejected. So I think you sort of there's a there's a lot of the time a lot of, am I good enough? You know, and that's something that I've had to, you know, work with over the years and try and amend or reframe or you know, do something with. Um, because it's not helpful to always think, uh, is this enough? Am I good enough? Obviously. So um so I think it's probably a bit of that. Um and I think maybe taking a slightly different uh turn in my career as much as I, you know, felt it was you know, something that I was ready for. I I I was suddenly found myself in this new role of having to lead a team of people. And that was terrifying initially, you know, and something that was very, very new. Because as an as an actor, you can, you know, be very over the years of uh working and being on sets, I've grown to be very confident on a set. And I'm sort of, you know, I I now in my acting don't ever really get too concerned with is this enough or am I good enough? I sort of I've been doing it 25 years. So I think I I've I've worked through that, but being a director and a writer was very new, so I felt like I was putting myself out there in a way that I've never done before and I felt vulnerable exactly. But I had to lead this team of people and make sure that they believed in me as a director, and that was terrifying initially, you know. Um, because I've you know, in those that first sort of, you know, the week well, not actually before we even got onto set and sort of the weeks leading up to it in prep, it was sort of having to have a voice, you know. And I think, you know, I know off camera we were chatting earlier about our daughters and their voices and how um impressed we are by their voices and how they've learned to use them from a very young age, which is just brilliant. But I think in our generation growing up, it was very different, and I think it found it took me a long time to find that voice. And that's not sort of saying I haven't been able to sort of graft what I want or be articulate or or you know be opinionated or but it's sort of having it's a confidence behind that to to to really kind of you know take risks and push yourself. And I think my biggest um flaw, I suppose, would be worrying too much about what other people think, you know. Do you really need to feel like it's gonna be a therapy session? It's such a waste of time, it's such a waste of time. There's I I I try to sometimes I think about like you know, it it's helpful for me to try and turn that around a bit in that it's also important to care what people think. Okay. I I I I do care if I've hurt your feelings. Yes. I do care about what's happened in your day that what has led you to this point that maybe you're not in the best mood and you're you know, things aren't working very well for us at the moment on set or or at whatever it is. So I think it's it's important to to have empathy, of course, and it's important to listen to people and to try and understand where you're meeting each other at. But I think there is a point where I am learning to separate that from actually it's okay to say, I understand what you've done, but I don't like it. I I I appreciate the work that you've put in, but it's actually not what I asked you to do. And that's different. And it's finding the confidence that I, you know, that's where I'm having to kind of go, okay, that saying, you know, articulating yourself in that way uh isn't going to upset them. It's not gonna well, it might a bit, but it doesn't matter if they don't like you for the day. You it ha doesn't make you an absolute shithead. You're just saying that's not the thing that I need right now. We're about to shoot a scene. So I need you to actually do the thing that I asked you to do. So it's uh it's it's a confidence really um that I'm you know working on and I think getting better at. And I think also it's you know, with the imposter syndrome, you know before I before I started shooting that film um this sort of occupied my mind a lot. Like, what if people don't see me as a as a leader? You know, what if they don't respond to that? What what what would happen, you know, and and what and what is a leader? And I what is a director? Like what what is who are the directors that I've worked with that I've really admired? When has it been really evident that this is a person who's leading a team and why do they respect them? And and I'm you know, we spend a lot of time sort of analysing and thinking about all the people I've worked with in the past and the ones that really um had an impact on me. And and really they were the people that listened to the people around them. They weren't the the dictators or the ones with the loudest voices. In fact, they're the ones that actually made it sort of not as pleasant as or not as collaborative. So I thought, well, actually, well, I know that I I am a good listener and I like listening to people. So to tap into the the qualities that actually aren't you know um unhelpful or disadvantaged, they are act they are actually qualities that will help just to look at it in a slightly different way. And that's what I then sort of you know lent into and and and sort of tried to sort of remind myself of on a daily basis that this is a you know a collaboration, it's a team of people, I am listening to the people that I'm working with, I'm you know telling them what I need. If they have questions, I can hopefully answer. But if I can't answer them, I will tell them that I don't know the answer and what do they think. And that had a really positive reaction as well. They're just like, oh, okay, you care about my uh input. And are you telling me that you actually that you don't know, but I do know, and that's actually a really nice thing to hear, you know. So it was just sort of figuring out what would still feel authentic for me as a director, as opposed to trying to put on this coat that sort of didn't fit and felt awkward, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

This is what I find it really fascinating because I've got this really conflicted feeling about the term imposter syndrome, even because I wonder how much of it is just not knowing how you want to do it yet. And I wonder if there's a power in reframing that in a way, and it's something that I've suffered from all of my career. Like I work in television in the UK, which essentially means English voices, you know, and English accents. And I'm from County Dairy, and nobody from my family or my village ever did anything like I'm doing. And it was always, I always felt a bit embarrassed about that and about me and my just my own self. And so I felt this imposter syndrome going through all of my career. But actually, I wonder if it was just a case of I didn't feel confident enough yet in who I was and what I was going to do, and that that's okay as well, because what you're saying is that not necessarily knowing how you wanted to do it means that you're also asking questions of those around you, which make you an incredible leader. That's the kind of leader we all want, is someone who's going to ask questions and listen to and implement the answers. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yeah, yeah. It it is. And I think also, and I I run the risk now at offending a lot a lot of men. Go for you. Go for it. I mean, we live in a patriarchy. They're probably all right. We've got one. Nathan or producer in the corner. Are you okay with this, Nathan?

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Nathan, it's very difficult to offend men.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Okay, I'm sure it doesn't apply to you either, Nathan. Um women are, I think, better at saying, I don't know. Yes, I don't know. Hands up, I don't know the answer to that. And I think men historically wing it and won't admit that they don't know. And through winging it, sometimes you get away with it by the skin of your teeth, but sometimes you a lot of the time you really don't. And you don't get the best out of people. You don't actually really get the result that you want unless you're lucky. Uh and you piss off a lot of people along the way. Yeah. But I think by saying, I don't, I don't know, it's okay to say you don't know, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

But I also feel like men do themselves and each other a disservice by that because they feel like they have to wing it. Yeah. The culture is that they have to come with the answers. Nobody's born with the answers. Exactly. But because our idea of male leadership is strong, it's binary, it's yes, no, black, white, many men go into business or leadership, or whatever it might be, feeling like they've got to present as that version. And I think the problem for women historically is that we also come into that space thick and we have to it what the men have been doing. Yes. But I feel like maybe we're luckier now that we have more women in directorial roles, in writing roles, in CEO positions that are able to do it in a different way. And I feel as if we bring enough women through to those positions of power, slowly that will change things for the men as well. With any lot.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah, yeah. Because it's not, it's not a weakness. Yeah, exactly. It's a strength. It's and it's an opportunity to learn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't know, you then have have given yourself an opportunity to learn from the person that's standing in front of you. So you you come away from it, you know, knowing more, which can only be a good thing. Exactly. Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah, that's why I I I got it. You're as ignorant as you were two minutes previous. You still don't know. So what's the point? It's not a weakness, I think it's it's very much a strength. So it's just it's kind of it's it's knowing that and being being comfortable with it. But I think that is difficult for a lot of men.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Yeah, absolutely. I do hope you'll forgive this interruption for just 30 seconds, but I do need to let you know if you're enjoying this conversation, it's all thanks to Sisterly, an amazing supplement for women that Victoria and I both take every day. The brand is all about supporting female health, not just with great nutrition, but with 360 wellness, which is why this podcast is all about releasing the pressure to keep up and giving us a moment of connection. That is what your sisterly fixed is all about. Right, back to the chat. There was another interview that I read about you, or maybe it was several, where it seemed to allude to you watching back some of your acting before, and you'd said how Eve Houston, for example, your um co-star in Bad Sisters, and you were also on another show with her, and she wouldn't watch back. So your Sharonin as well wasn't watching back, and you find this really fascinating. And the the interview itself didn't follow that through. Maybe they cut it out, but my assumption was that you're watching it back really to learn, and I'm doing bad quotation marks here, but maybe actually as a vehicle to hate on yourself a little bit. Yeah. Was it?

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah, I think I think you're bang on. Yeah, yeah. I used to, I used to, you know, because you'd be invited to a casting crew or the premiere. So I thought, you know, you were obligated to go and watch it because you, you know, that's you're invited, you're in it, yeah, you should watch it, and it would just be excruciating. Yeah. Because the watching was never never felt the same as the experience. Of course. Then you start to hate on yourself, and you think that's it, and you start to, you know, criticize and you start to, you know, and sometimes just stuff you kind of go, Oh, that was, yeah, that was okay. But a lot of times it's like, oh my god, no. And I felt it was deeply uncomfortable. And Eve and Search it both said at so at different point, oh, I don't, I don't, I don't watch my stuff. I might watch it. And it was definitely Search, anyway. I remember her saying, um, I was after Brooklyn after I came out of the casting crew brook Brooklyn. She was already at the bar. I was like, How'd you get Larry so bringing?

SPEAKER_02 19:56

She's like, I didn't watch it.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

It was wonderful, amazing. Why not? And she went, Oh god, no, it's just so uncomfortable. She said, I might watch it in a few years' time. And she's like 20 years younger than me or something. I was like, wow, I'm I don't have to watch things. You know, I so I don't. Apart from Bad Sisters. Oh, you you did watch Bad Sisters. Why? I I don't I think because I was we were such a team and it was like sort of we all watched it together and it was such a sort of I don't know, such a bonding thing. And I think it was so it was so immensely enjoyable the whole experience. I love that. And everything that Sharon does is always brilliant. So I kind of thought this has to surely be a good experience. I can't hate myself on this, surely. And I watched it and I loved it. And did you enjoy yourself anyway? I did, I did. I mean, of course, there's times where you kind of go, you know, because you know typical, I suppose, I think it's made more a female trait. I did actually maybe that's not fair. I think men probably do as well, where you go, you're just very critical on yourself and you don't like like how you're looking, you look a bit, you know, uh-huh, you know, out of shape or old or you know, and so you start to pick yourself apart, and that's really unhelpful, obviously. So there's still that that runs, you know, that little voice is there you have to kind of ignore. But it didn't happen a huge amount in that show because I thought it was just so the whole thing was so glorious.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

I feel like you wanted to say that you really enjoyed your performance and you almost stopped yourself because you didn't even really finish that sentence off before you went through all the reasons that you would hit on yourself.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah, sure, yeah. Well, isn't that quite honest?

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Oh 100%. 100%. And to be honest, the reason this resonated with me whenever I read it is because again, I just felt so sane. Right. Okay. I mean, I uh my day job is I'm a uh TV presenter in sport. Yeah. And for years I would watch myself back and I'd watch the shows back. And apparently, this is a real thing in America. And American TV, everybody watches themselves back. Here, nobody does. So I would have to hide away to do it. And I'd be into my back in the hotel room and make sure nobody can see that I'm watching myself back. And I would tell myself I'm doing it to learn, to make it better. And I did learn a lot. And I would see how I came across. But eventually, I didn't realise I was doing this until I went to therapy a few years ago for the first time. And it was amazing. And I told my therapist I was doing this. And she was like, Why are you what why are you doing that? And I said, Well, I've got to learn. She's never seen me on TV, but she said, But you're obviously very good at what you do because otherwise you wouldn't still be in this industry. And I was like, I'm only good because I'm watching about it. She said, No, you're doing that because you want to hit on yourself. Do you ever watch back and think that was really good? And I'm like, Well, obviously not. At least the in the bits I didn't like. She said, Stop. Just stop what so I to this day, ever since I've never watched myself. I've stopped. And you feel better about it. Yeah, because I don't care. Who cares? Because what am I what am I going to learn at this stage in my career about how to be different? Yes. I think before as well, it was about trying to see how I fit it into the mold again of UK broadcasting. I'm very loud, I'm very opinionated, I'm very emotional about my sport. I needed to make sure that that fitted in. It doesn't. So let's just get over that.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Was anybody did you ever face criticism about your natural quality? So you were trying so they were told it would be a bit less this or a bit more that.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Not by people I worked with, but by the great unseen, you know, social media. People would say things like a lot. It would be, who is this loud woman in my living room? Somebody tell her to keep her voice time. Never mind the fact they've got a remote control. You can never really have to watch me. But it's something that I've always had all my life. I've got a loud voice. And so people would always say, You're a dairy girl.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

I know. You know this. Well, of course, because you moved to dairy growing up in Derry Straban, wasn't it? No, Derry. My dad worked in Straban. Oh, I see what you were dairy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

We're lied. We're lied. Uh, but even as I was growing up, I was loud for a dairy girl. And so this look that people pull sometimes when I come into a room is like, and they want to do this with their ears. And people have done that openly with me all my life. So I'd watch this back to see if I was too loud. What am I gonna do at this stage? You know, so I've stopped and it's liberating because actually then it doesn't matter so much anymore.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Well, that's just all that's pure self-acceptance, then, isn't it kind of going to be a good thing? Didn't it go? Isn't it? Yeah, reach a stage where you're going to go, no, and this isn't.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Where are you in that journey? Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Oh, it's so much easier to tell other people that's really good than it is to do it yourself, isn't it? I'm I'm well, when it comes to my acting, just like this is, you know, I can always improve and push myself and look for roles that really challenge me that I haven't done. But you know, but I sort of feel like I feel like I'm I can happily say I'm good. I'm a good actor. You know, I'm just good. It's not where you stop. I just stop at a time. Give me another 20 years if you like. I'm very good. Very is that as far as I'll go. I think you should say, I'm fucking amazing. I'm not gonna say it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

You can say it as many times as you like. I've got to hold up a mirror. We've got to get used to this by the end of it. Do you know something? A quick sidebar. I tried this thing once because I've been on this journey as well. Yeah. I tried this thing once. I saw Mel Robin saying she had this, I'm not a big anyway. Um, she did this thing where she said you should high-five yourself in the mirror every day, like literally. And I thought, I'm gonna try that. I'm gonna she said, you'll feel stupid, you'll feel ridiculous, but it'll really work. I got up one morning, I was away for work, I would never do it at home. Um, and I thought, I'm gonna do it. And I and I smashed my hand into the mirror, and I was like, I'm such a deep pen. I loved the belt and never did it.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

It's like doing that to yourself, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yeah, so I wouldn't recommend that. No, okay. But no, where are you on that journey? So you think you're a good actress? And that's as far as I'll go. That's as far as I'll go.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

And as a person, as a partner, as a mum, as a friend. What are you?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Um well, I would like to think that I'm a great friend. Yeah. I I adore my my pals, obviously. So I I would like to think that I am. Um motherhood is, you know, it's up, you know, one moment she's like, I kill this. What a great mom I am. I fight for myself. I'm going, whoop, whoop, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am killing this. And then I am the worst. Yeah. I am the worst mother. I'm the worst person. And it's just, you know, it's just like that, isn't it? So there's no, there's no consistency. Yeah. There's no, you know, my bit like my parenting. It's not consistency. Um as a well, you'd have to ask my husband as a wife. I think I'm pretty good as a wife. I think I'm a yeah. Do you feel like you can carry it really hard to articulate? Yeah, I know, and I find this really, really interesting. It makes you uncomfortable. It does a bit, yeah. Yeah. Have you done therapy? I did do therapy. Did you enjoy it? Yeah, I did, yeah. But well, uh did I enjoy I enjoyed it towards the end. I well, I don't know if enjoy is the word. It it's it taps into this as well, I suppose, because what I really struggled with initially in therapy, and I probably did it for about a year and a half, two years.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah, I think. I was about the same, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah, and and I'm really, really glad I did it. Like it looking back, it transformed where my life was at. So it was invaluable.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

But for a a good six months, or maybe even a year, of going weekly, I struggled with just it was that, you know, well, it's not that bad. Like, people have much bigger problems than me. So I don't, you know, I shouldn't really be here.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

I don't know. And anybody watching this who's not Irish will probably be like, no, this is quite universal, but I feel like that's a real Irish thing as well, isn't it? We belittle, we gaslight ourselves, don't we? Yeah. Yeah. There are children dying in Ethiopia. Yeah, that was always the way. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

So exactly. Yeah. So yeah, your problems mean nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I no, I think that is our our our childhood, yeah, our upbringing, and our um, so I spent a huge amount of time going, I mean, it's nothing, it's fine, it's fine, I'll be grand, I'll talk about it, and I'll be like, no, it'll be you know, you know, it'll it'll be fine.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Did you ever try to make your therapist feel better and make your therapist like you?

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Yes, yeah, yeah, but she like she cottoned onto that so quickly. So she's just like, you know, poke her face. It's like, so how are you? Are you well? She's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's not yeah, yeah. I walked past her once in the street, sort of halfway, you know, like a year into therapy. I was like, how are you? She just sort of nodded and walked on. It's like, oh, which I don't know if that was the best response for maybe that's absolutely what every therapist does. I I have no idea, but I of course took it personally and just like my therapist doesn't like me. Why isn't I there to like that? And I think when the I I did it, you know, it suggests that I stopped at one point. And who suggested? I did. Okay. And I feigned uh financial circumstances. I just thought I think I should just stop. Oh why? Um I because I think it probably got to a point where I was okay. Well, I thought I was maybe okay enough, but really probably the opposite was the case. That there was stuff that wasn't being talked about.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

So she she messaged me back saying, Well, if it's financial, um how does five pounds a session suit?

SPEAKER_02 29:38

It's like shut up.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yes, why I can afford five pounds a session is like completely backfired, so I had to carry on with therapy and and thankfully I did.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

And did it help in the end? Yeah, yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

It did. I made some big life changes throughout that journey, so it did absolutely help, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Do you want to talk about any of them? This sounds gonna be more too much like therapy.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

It's more that's probably not fair in other people's shit. So I probably I think it's probably best not to, but it was definitely you know, big, big changes that um that you know were very difficult and um and hard to deal with at the time, but you know, were absolutely necessary and not the reasons why I went. I thought I was going for something else. Yeah. And then you realize aren't you that you go, oh no, this is what's actually. Yeah, it's clever, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

So how do you stay well then in general? How do you look after yourself? I loved in Bad Sisters the whole running theme of the cold water swimming and all the sisters swimming together at the 40 foot. Is that something that you do, or what how do you look after yourself?

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Funnily, at that time, I despised cold water. Did you? So the cold, so swimming in the 40 foot was torture. It was awful. In fact, the only one of us in the group that actually really kind of relished it was Eve. She was like, Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

This is fabulous.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Yes. And she loved it, and she lives really close, you know, in that area, and she sort of it was something that she would do on a regular basis, and the rest were just like Baltic. It's awful. But I subsequently um have realized that and experienced the benefit of cold water plunging.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

And so I started to get into it. Now I'm out of the habit of it, I have to be honest. I haven't been doing it of late, but it it was like all that brain fog and all that sort of like you know, HRT and hormones and everything that goes on when you're my age, it was like an immediate fix. It was just like this is alive, yeah. Yeah, just like one minute in a cold tub and my day was set. So that was a real um that's something that I've I I integrated. Um because of Bad Sisters or no, no, um because my husband got really into it and he invested in it like a cold plunger, like a tub in our garden. Like it's literally like a tub. Um, it's not very fancy, but he got into it, and then and I was sort of I tried a few times, but I my family all historically hate cold water. We're all like terrible and not, you know, we won't go sea swimming. I wasn't here. We were brought to British Bay as kids, but I don't think we ever went into but we had a big there was a big birthday party about two years ago and uh you know a few drinks were had, and my one of my dear friends, as a birthday present the next day to help the hangover, she said, I've got you a session, the two of us together at a banya. And the banana there's these banyas around London, yes, and they're the sauna cold plunge experience, but it's like a three-hour you go to sauna, you go into you know a cool cold plunge, and then you go into the freezing one and you rotate. It's like does she know me? That's like that's a shit present. I'm not gonna be into this at all actually for three hours and pretend that I like it. It was remarkable. Really? Yeah, my hangover went like that, and I was just like, oh my god, cold plunging. I suddenly got it. It was just it was transformative. So I came home saying to my husband that yes, I am in, and then got into the habit of doing it, and I'm now out of the habit, but I will get back in there. Yeah, but so that is really good for mental health for sure. For me, my moods that sort of me out. Um, and what else do I do? I do reformer Pilates as well. I'd be desperate to try that. It's brilliant, Orley. You have to do it. Yeah, it is so good, not only like just for strength, but because you are dealing with the machinery that you have to navigate and handle and work on. So you have to concentrate, you have to really concentrate so your head switches off. Yeah, I don't know about you, but I have just a lot of chat all the time in my head, and it just turns that off for an hour. So I feel like it's it's like m almost meditative as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Yeah, it's why I love riding my bike because you have to concentrate or skiing because you can't be oh, I've never been skipping. It is the most meditative activity because you cannot do anything other than concentrate on not dying. Yes, do you know? And it's a great focus sharpener that there could be an avalanche, you could crash into a child or whatever it might be in the fresh air. It is the best therapy. I think it's absolutely amazing. I think I'm too scared to start now. Yeah, I didn't start until I was an adult, and it did take a while, and it isn't an investment in time because you've got to spend the time or like one week a year going back. But once you get into it, you don't have to be good to like it, is the good thing. Okay. You need to go and see whether you might get into it or not, yeah, and then you're hooked. And then it doesn't matter if you're a bit rubbish.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Yeah, because I'm not that great at it, but I love it. Yeah, I really, really enjoy it. My favorite thing is going down a mountain with my husband, my kids. That is Yeah, so you get the kids. This year, for the first time, I got to ski down a mountain with my kids, no instructor, just all of us together. And it was one of the half- I'm just like, I'm quite a crier. Just crying all the way down the mountain, going, This is the best thing ever. Oh my god, yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, exactly. Um, we're talking about things that that have been successful in your life, and I'm just curious about anything that's any rule that you've turned down that you sort of regret, I guess, or anything that you've learned from in in mistakes professionally in your life. Um Or does it all kind of work out because that's where it takes you anyway?

SPEAKER_00 35:34

I don't know. Like it's I've definitely there's been jobs where, yeah, I I either I haven't done I don't know if there's any big one where kind of went, oh fuck, if only I had done that, then my life would be really different. I don't think there's anything that that big. Yeah. Um but there you always there's definitely lots of times where offers of jobs not that not that lot lots of offers come in all the time. But there have been jobs over the years that come in and I I decide make a decision to not do it for what feels like very valid reasons, but there's always that, but I think it's more of a fear of sort of when will the next job come in, where you sort of let go of something and as soon as you you said no to it, it's just like a mistake. You kind of second guess yourself. But I I I sort of I I think I'm a fairly good gauge of because I've been doing it so long, of what I should and shouldn't be doing, you know. And unfortunately, there's not that many really good parts that come in in general, you know, because there's so many actors, but also women's parts are can be very repetitive. The type of roles that there are, and of course, things like Bad Sisters and you know lots of other great stuff i i is out there, but I loathe to repeat myself and do this the similar ilk, yeah. Um so I'm I am picky as a result, I'm picky. I sort of feel like it really needs to excite me, it needs to be and it doesn't have to be a massive part, it could be the prospect of working with I like I recently did a film No Ordinary Heist, and it wasn't a particularly big part, and um but it was working with Eddie Marzan, who I think is brilliant. And I was like, well, I'd love to work with Eddie, and you know, so there's the if I can find a really good reason to to do something I well, I have to find a really good reason to do something because you have to justify being away from your kids as well. That's their you know, it's so you know unsociable the hours, and a lot of time it films away and it's for you know big chunks of time. So um there has to be a good reason for me to to do it, but it does mean then sometimes choosing not working over working, and that's where the regret can sometimes creep in because you go, should have a baby been away doing something.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Are the rules getting better? Are they for women?

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Yes, I think they are. There's I mean, you know, it's not that every script now you read is like full of great rumors, yeah. You know, it but it has improved. And I think um finally, because of shows like you know, I just keep saying bad sisters like there's lots out there.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

So standout though, and I guess that's also a little bit sad and indicative that there aren't, even though, as you say, there are much better opportunities and there are more shows now with strong female leads and multiple female leads, there still aren't that many.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

No, so there's no stand-out. Yes, exactly, exactly. Um, so it's sort of um I've forgotten what what I what I was answering there now.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

So I was asking whether the rules have gotten better than the way they've been written for women in particular.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yes, yeah, I I think what that's what I was gonna say. What we have realized is that people, not just women, but people do want to see flawed, messy, complicated, funny. Well, like women of all types on their screen, and people of all types on their screen, not just women, um, that that's much more relatable than you know these either perfect lives or these people are very, you know, sort of removed from our lives, they're not relatable. So I think we have realized that there's an appetite for something that's much more, you know, messy and complicated. And then that that's interesting, you know. So they've improved in that sense, I think, where but still, you know, I think there's still a way to go. Um and I think you know, we still see a lot of it on our screens where you know I I think all the the maybe there's more male parts that outweigh the the good female parts.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Um and I think also the kind of the genres that are tapped into. I think there's this you know the belief that you know people don't want to see gritty drama or they don't want to see um confronting drama and then something like adolescence gets made and you go, people do want to see that. People do want to, you know, watch stuff that's uncomfortable. Yeah, I think as well we want to be uh made to feel whatever that is. Yeah, I d and I but I think you know, but when it comes to the you know people who are financing a lot of the projects, they get you know fearful that people don't want to be challenged and they think too much about the younger generation who are, you know, what do they call it? It's not called double screening. There's a word for it whether like basically got their phone or their laptop and the TV. Yeah. So everything is done now in a really you know quick, condensed way and spelt out and because they think they're gonna lose the audience's attention because their audience is between the age of you know 15 and 25, but they've forgotten about everybody else who isn't doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're still watching, sitting down and watching drama and challenging, confronting drama, and you know, so it's it's sort of I don't know why they could sort of haven't you know realised that that's not that the audience is is is much broader than that, and that actually the appetite hasn't changed. You know, the likes of you and I and all the people that we know aren't looking for 25 minutes short quick dramas and just sort of about you know or or maybe that we are sometimes, you know, that's sometimes we're gonna be a good one.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Because I will not choose screen at different times, but I love nothing more than something that commands my full attention and that needs my full attention. Adolescence is a perfect example because to really enjoy that, you have to put the rest of living aside, sit down and focus not only on the storyline, but on the single track shots, on the whole beauty of that and the horror of the storyline. Yeah, and I think that's what I crave more than anything else because when I can multi-screen, I will. Yeah. But I'd rather something that didn't allow me to do that. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Yeah, yeah. What why do you choose to multi to multi-screen? Is that because something's not really grabbing you and you and you have shit to do?

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Yeah, mostly. It's a really good question. I'm also a victim of my own addiction to my phone, and it's something I really, really try to push back on. And yeah, I do practice meditation because I'm really aware of my my the problem that I have of being addicted to dopamine. Yeah. So also because I've got a really busy life. Yeah. Um, when I get into bed at night, that's my time for me. So I'll watch something, but I'll think, oh, I don't know what the gossip is somewhere else. Or I don't know what else has been happening in the in the internet today. So I'm trying to find out everything at the one time as I'm trying to go to sleep, and then I'm wondering why I'm waking at 3 a.m. Exactly. Yeah, blue screens. No blue screens. No, but I but I'm I will obsessively watch something before going to sleep. Yeah. I'm always falling asleep with my screen. Yes. And and that does work, but eventually, so I'll watch something, I'll multi-screen it, and then eventually I'll just watch. And that's my cue that I'm allowed to fall asleep. But it I think it's that sort of being hyper-connected in the modern world and FOMO, thinking that I'm I'm missing out on something if I don't know what's happening. What's happening? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if it's a really so I would never have watched Bad Sisters in Bed, or I'd never watch Adolescence in bed because I want to give that my full attention. I'm not gonna fall asleep to that. Yeah. So I'm gonna sit up and watch it while I'm fully awake, and that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

And like you say, there is definitely a time and a place, and we all and a a need for the very light stuff that's just about escapism and the untaxing. Yeah, love at first sight. Which we haven't seen yet. But yes, yes, that's okay. That's um, and brilliant, you know, in equal measure.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

There's a place for that. There absolutely is. But it's funny as well when you say about the younger generation, my kids and my daughter in particular is begging me to watch adolescence because it's been used as an example in her school of you know what's going on amongst preteens in particular. And I and she's not ready to watch it yet, but I will allow her to watch it before she goes to secondary school because I think that's quite useful for for her to know what the boys are being exposed to. And I know the boys in her class are being exposed to because we can see that. And that's something that for me as a mother to a girl and a boy, I find quite terrifying. And I don't know where you are with that.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Well, same. I mean, that's why that I mean watching adolescence had me, I was i uh uh in a heap on the floor. Were you surprised by it? In what in what respect?

SPEAKER_01 43:57

By what is happening out there? No, no, no, meaning. There.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

That's what was really upsetting about it. And I've got a 12-year-old boy, and that was, you know, and I think and it was, you know, it was massively informative, but that was also terrifying because it made me realise how little I I knew in terms of what and the language that they're using. Yeah, the language. I mean the new language, like the words that I've never heard of. I don't mean bad language, but googling the lingo.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Yeah. And what you know, different, you know, symbols and emojis and everything, what they the meaning behind them. That was completely new to me. And then my my son's a little bit y younger, he's not quite, but he has just started secondary school. And so it was a that you know, sudden sort of you know, uh lesson awareness of kind of going, fuck, it's there's like that, that is out there, and the stuff that we can't shield them from, the stuff that we can't, you know, so being informed is everything. But that's why I thought the show was so brilliant because the people that should have known didn't know as well. Like the detective and the police, and just like they don't know the lingo, they don't, you know, so it's just been on the back foot constantly. So I thought it was excellent drama, but necessary drama as well, you know, that I've I feel like they should show kids, you know, in in in in secondary school and when you know at the right age at the right time, but it's it's horribly young as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 45:19

It's yeah, horrendous. Yeah, um, I'm really interested, and I know we're running out of time, but you're talking about, I guess, different rules of being a mother and an actress and a friend, and underneath all of that, being a woman. And I'm curious how you feel it is to be a woman in 2026, because we're talking about the manosphere and we're talking about the different pressures that women face that men probably still don't face. But this isn't to lead the question in any way, but I guess it is a little bit. I feel really hopeful and positive about being a woman in this era because I feel like we've got more knowledge and information than ever before. And I'm going through my hormone experience right now and getting really angry about the lack of knowledge, but also flipping that over and thinking, well, actually, we do have people who are at least helping us in a way that our mothers never had, you know? Yeah. So I wonder how you feel about it's a big question, but the totality of being a woman in 2026.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

It is a big question, and I suppose what springs to mind um listening to you, the things that came to my mind were I suppose my responsibility as a mother to my daughter. That's I think first and foremost. Um I was okay, I have a you know wonderful relationship with my mother and I had a you know, you know, a very supportive upbringing, but the comfort and language wasn't there for us growing up in terms of you know our bodies, our relationships, um, our sexuality, or you know, sort of you know, growing up, being a woman in in the world from what any age and you know, what to maybe expect, how to handle cer certain situations. And I feel like we are, like you say, in a time now where the landscape has shifted dramatically and we have the language, and there's you know, um, there's a directness and an openness in a conversation now that just wasn't happening before, which is I think really empowering for younger people as well to sort of be able to be whoever they want to be, yeah, which is incredible. Um, so I think that there's been a huge shift there, but I I think so for our kids growing up now, I think it's it's it's already a very a very different place. You know, there's there's an acceptance that just wasn't there before. But I think it's still obviously our responsibility as mothers to you know, that voice that we're talking about earlier about having your voice and you know not being afraid to use it in any scenario. That's I think my biggest kind of goal with my daughter is to make sure she has her voice and and and sees you using yours. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um, so I think I I I feel positive as well in in that respect. And I think, you know, in terms of work and my experience on in the working environment on sets, that's completely changed. You know, there's a there's a whole new language around that as well. The whole language has has changed, I think in in many aspects. And I think that is is very empowering. I feel like as a woman, I'm listened to in a different way now. I feel, you know, that there's there's the major all men, but yeah, a lot of men are also learning that we are in a different time and are accepting, readily accepting of that and celebratory of that and supportive of that, and stepping to the side and embracing that. There's obviously not a lot who aren't who aren't at all, and that'll be the ongoing battle. But I think women should hopefully feel up for the battle and just plow on because it's just you know, why why would we not? But I think we can now, you know, we're it's it's it's a it's a different landscape. I think we are all supporting each other in a very, very different way now as well, which I think you know, sort of feeling that support and energy from your fellow sisters is is everything, and that's what kind of helps, I think, um, move us all forward and and and take our risks and not you know not care about the consequences in the way that we used to.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

And I love that cross-generational element of the sisterliness. I loved hearing you talk about how you're essentially learning, I guess, lessons from the likes of Eve Houston and Sierra Sharon and our daughters as well, that are, that are able to teach us something. And I and I love that we're not maybe even expected to have the answers anymore. And I feel strongly that that's because as women, we're allowed to talk with each other much more openly with our friends, and maybe we weren't quite so much before. We had to be the perfect matriarch, and now we're allowed to say to our fellow to our friends, yeah, this is just too much. You know, I'm trying to work and I'm trying to mother and I'm trying to look after myself, and it's just a lot, and I think we're allowed to be more vulnerable these days.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Absolutely, absolutely, and I think it's also really crucial that the men, the husbands, the partners, the fathers do exactly the same. Yeah. My daughter saw my husband cry the other day. I mean, she actually she laughed. Come to think of it, she found it funny. But my point being, stay with me. I'm I'm here, haven't given my point.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

I love your daughter, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

He did. And she saw that that's that guys cry.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, because my kids always say to my husband that they've never seen him cry and they ask him, and they know he cried on his wedding day. Uh, because I told them to. And I'm hoping I'm hoping it was a good version of tears, but we've never discussed it. Who knows? Maybe he just saw his life falling apart in front of him. But he did cry. Um, but yeah, I do I love that. And I wonder what sisterly advice, if you could you go back and give your younger self, 20, 30-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Like it is, it goes back to the voice again. Yeah, yeah. You find your voice, use it. Don't be, don't, don't shy away from that voice. It's yours, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

I love it. Um, one final question that I've been asking all of our guests is um hopefully if we are lucky enough and we drink our sisterly every day, we'll get to a ripe old age, we'll be sitting in the rocking chair, yes, looking back on our lives. What do you hope will be your proudest achievement when you're looking back from that rocking chair?

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Oh, I I think it is about being a mother. Really? Yeah, I do. Yeah. I think it's that I will. I mean, of course, we'll probably, you know, we'll still have the well you acknowledge that it's also a very bumpy ride being a parent and very challenging. But I would like to think I look back and go, my kids are happy, we did all right. I think I think that's you know, because career, whatever, that'll be what what it'll be, you know. That's you know, you know, I'm passionate about that and and and and I put the work in and it'll, you know, it'll be what it'll whatever it'll be. But the responsibility of of of motherhood and the the the hope of you not fucking up your kids is really great. So I wanted to get to good business. Yeah, my rocky jar going, we didn't fucking we didn't fuck it up tonight. Yeah, I don't want them in therapy about me. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

What somebody said to me once is that you will always fuck up your kids, get over it.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Okay, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

And I and I think that's also quite powerful, just trying to pick them up as little as possible. Yeah, okay, there we go. Eva, thank you so much. It's been utter a privilege. Thank you. It's amazing.