2 Peter 2:4-12 // Sermon Conversations

This episodes covers 2 Peter 2:4–12 and explores the sobering reality that God is both the righteous Judge and the faithful Rescuer. The passage walks through examples of divine judgment—from angels who sinned, to the ancient world destroyed by the flood, to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah—to show that no one ultimately escapes God’s justice. 

At the same time, Scripture highlights God’s pattern of rescuing the righteous, as seen in the lives of Noah and Lot, reminding us that His heart moves toward redemption even while He judges sin. The episode wrestles with how we approach difficult truths about hell, condemnation, and God’s sovereign authority over righteousness and judgment. It also challenges listeners to examine whether they approach Scripture through humility and trust in God’s Word or through a predisposed lens that questions the Judge Himself. 

The conversation contrasts those who humbly live under God’s righteousness with those who arrogantly follow their own desires, reject authority, and speak against what they do not understand. Ultimately, the episode points listeners back to the hope of rescue found in Jesus—the One whose righteousness covers us and secures our salvation even in a world still awaiting final judgment.

Website: jasonshepperd.com

Audio Devotionals: startwith7.com

Have Conversations Toward Salvation: goodgodgospel.com

Church Project Network: churchprojectnetwork.com

Good City: goodcity.org

“A Church of House Churches: An Articulated and Applied Ecclesiology”: https://a.co/d/0vgpSjV

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Rethink and Return Podcast. My name is Jason Shepherd. Every week we rethink things and return to God's original intention and his design. We generally do two recordings a week. One, we revisit a passage of scripture that thousands of people are studying together in a Sunday gathering or in a house church, and we're just going to dig more deeply into these things, things that we didn't get to talk about enough or want to talk about more that we're wrestling with. And then we do another recording where we're just working out leadership things, being a pastor and ministry or leading stuff, and wrestling with tensions of how we live like that in our world today. So we'd love for you to like this, subscribe to it, share it with other people, enjoy the podcast. We'll see you soon. Hey, thanks for joining us for the Rethink and Return Podcast. We revisit a passage of scripture that we've been talking about with a lot of people on a Sunday. A lot of those people will get in a house church and walk through the passage together. And then we do this uh for people who want more.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

That's right. Of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

And uh yeah, I'm glad we get to do it. Thanks for hanging out, Dave.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

I'm always glad to get to do the post-game, walk through these verses. It's cool, man. It's cool. We got a lot of great, we got a lot of great feedback. Like I get it from people I see out. We got a comment last week that said I love the podcast on the false teachers, and they spell teachers, T-E-A.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Come on.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Teachers. I'm not I'm not making that. That is true. That's it. False teachers. So people love the T update as well. Well merged with the verses.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

I'm happy for those people. Thanks for monitoring all those comments and doing whatever they want.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

People are thinking of uh T puns to go along with the text.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

No, I'm I'm moved.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

I knew you would be.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

I'm uh it's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

My soul is stirring.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

So talking about false teachers.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Okay. I did get that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

I thought it was good.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Thank you, Dave, for changing again and again. That's right. All right, but let's get into the stock here about Hey, so today, man, wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

What a what a group of verses.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

You know, like in some ways, I'm like, I'm glad it was like spring forward losing hour, spring break Sunday, because I'm like, oh, there'll be less people on these historically, you know, although there's still a lot of people. And uh I'm like, oh, because I mean I just feel right like that's my flesh just going, oh no. Well, I mean when I'm in this passage all week long, I'm like, I know what this is gonna feel like coming from the stage. And it it just has some words and phrases and and doctrine that it's hard for us to understand.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Especially if you're not used to reading scrip scripture and you know, like I always listen to these sermons as a listener. You know, like when I listen to you preach, I'm not listening to it as a preacher or as a speaker, like I'm listening to it because I want to learn. I want to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

And so like when you read when you read through these passages together, you're like, goodness gracious, you know. Like I I hope us just talking about how weird it is will make people to go read it right now. You know.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Or at least make people go, okay, I'm glad I'm glad it's not just me.

SPEAKER_06 3:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Because I mean, it this is this is hard for all of us humans. Yeah I think, you know, the thing that I the thing that I'm aware of though is that people who come here to this church who have come from other churches, most of which have not taught through the the Bible like verse by verse, they've probably never had this because nobody's doing like um, or not many, if any, would be doing like a let's do a series on sending angels to hell. Right. Right. That's right. Eternal torment. That's right. Let's let's do a series on that. I mean, this is the stuff that you want to get around, but I'm really glad that God gave it to us in scripture. And it's good if if it's in his word, it's gotta be good.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Well, I think what's we'll see as you walk through it, you know, that there's a lot of life-giving principles in these passages. That's right. Which is, I mean, really, really powerful. And like when you hit a I just want to nerd out for a minute, but like when you hit a a group of verses like this that you know are gonna be different, do you prepare differently? Does it force you to do you do you do anything different when you go, this is this is a really difficult passage and I've got to do X or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Well, I'll tell you, yeah, just candidly, like I um, well, I'm aware, I'm aware of things differently. Like I'm aware. Like uh, I I it I didn't prepare differently, I delivered it differently. Okay. Wow. Because I still break down the passage the same way, but here's what I know. I'm not if I interject humor today too much, it's gonna try to, I'm gonna be try to offset the heaviness of it too much.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

And I think I can minimize some of these things that are they're just heavy, let's just accept they're heavy. Right. Um, I know I'm not gonna have a whole lot of engagement back, which I don't like, you know, when I'm preaching. Like I like to be feeling people. So I I I'm aware of that, I prepare myself for that on something like this, you know? Yeah. And um, and I just get okay with it because I'm like, I would be doing the same thing. I'm gonna be have to sit here and if I was out there, I'd have to go, okay, I gotta, I gotta work through this stuff, reconcile this stuff, gauge myself against what's being said, and see what I believe, how I'm handling it. So I deliver it differently, and I can tell you, I deliver it differently now than I would have years ago.

SPEAKER_06 5:14

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Well, I mean, gosh, uh we all should be growing in every way.

SPEAKER_06 5:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

As a human being, as a, you know, for me as a pastor and even as a preacher. And um, yeah, I think uh as a preacher, even today at 52, if I would have preached this at 32, I probably would have been a lot more prophet angsty, hell, you know, stuff like today. I just probably just took it with a little more trepidation, yeah, caution, understanding. I mean, so you know, I think we're always gonna like if there's a preacher out there who's preaching, I'm like you you we all gotta keep growing, yeah. Even in the way we deliver things. And so I think I delivered this a little differently, but my notes would look the same, you know, the way I broke it down, but I delivered it even differently. Like I I literally, except for scripture reference, I don't think I looked at my notes at all. Wow. Because I just had to, yeah, I just did it different. I don't know how to explain it.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Well, and I think the other thing is if you know, I'm I know we have people that watch and listen that haven't been to church project, and I would just say you know, when you get a chance to come here, like today, everyone's got their Bibles out, they got their phones open, you got people taking notes, like the crowd is engaged, like they're they're trying to learn it with you.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

So I think that tone, when you set that tone, you're not trying to you're not trying to be f funny about it or you know, all that kind of stuff that people would do at other, you know, places. Uh, but you know, I think you go, there's some this is hard-hitting stuff, but if we walk through it together, there really there really is something to learn from it. Yeah. And what I saw today in both gatherings is you had people that were tracking with you, like they're listening, they're taking notes.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Well, like after it, when people are like, Hey, thank you for that. Yeah. I know that was hard. Yeah, it was hard, but thank you for not skipping verses. Thank you for going through it all. Thank you for I mean, like the is the Bible says about the Bereans were of noble character. Yeah. And then they took the word. Like that's our people. We our people are just of such noble character. They take the word and they compare it to what they're hearing. And if it's true, then they'll accept it. Yeah. I say I like to say my job as a preacher is to expose and explain the scriptures. Yeah. And then the job of the person listening is to accept it if it's true and then apply it to their life. Yeah. And so you have to gauge it against the word. And so I love that people are doing that.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Yeah, I do too. And I think this is he's, you know, last week we talked about him, he's calling out the false teachers, he's coming off of that whole idea and into these next group of verses.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

Right? I mean, that's that's a lot. It's never gonna be on a coffee mug. It's never gonna make the bottom of a Thomas Kincaid painting.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

No, no, that's that's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. Yeah, that's a that's a tough t-shirt to sell. That's right. It's never gonna be a living epistle. I mean, first, we got to talk about angels a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

And so, you know, like I said today, there's angel ology, there's also demonology, there's the doctrine of angels and demons, right? And so, um you have you have angels, and uh what kind of angels do you have? I mean, I don't want to get too deep in that today, but there's different types of angels created, they're doing different things. Yeah, but that here's the here's the thing that I think is wild. And by the way, let's go back to the preface for all this, which I just saw you circle. Like, go ahead and say why you circled that.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

Well, I yeah, one of the reasons I ask you if you approach it the text differently, is because I know that you opened today talking about the lens through which we see it through.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

And like I I just and I also have it in my written notes, you know, that we have to we have to see it through the right lens, and then I see it here. And so I wanted to ask you about that. Like something told you to talk about that before you got into the text. I mean, I know the Spirit of God speaks to you, but that there was an instinct that made you address that. I wonder uh I thought it'd be good for you to talk about that for our listeners, like the lens that because I could see if you read these verses together, you could make some implications that weren't necessarily biblical. Like they're not they're not true to the text. So I but anyway, uh what what why that comment, that the lens idea?

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Well, I think when we're reading something in scripture and we sense a resistance in our flesh, we we need to go, where's this resistance coming from? Is it coming from culture? Is it coming from my own sense of justice or idea? Or it or how do I see scripture when I read it? And I think the default that we need to be following as followers of Jesus is this is true, help me understand it. Yeah. Versus, I don't know if I if if I accept this as true. So and and Peter, and at the end of 2 Peter chapter 1, he told us it's all true.

SPEAKER_05 10:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

It's all delivered, it didn't come from man. The origin of scriptures didn't come from men. Therefore, the origin of this came from the Lord. As we keep saying, if God could deliver salvation in the flesh through a human being, the incarnation, then he can deliver the inspiration of his word through humans as well. So do I see 2 Peter chapter 1, the verses we're reading today, chapter 2, verse 4, do I see that as inspired by God? Or am I am I reading this today going, I'll see if this is true. So the lens I need to look at scripture is it's true, help me understand it. That's good. Versus I don't know if it's true. Yeah. I'll let you know if I believe. I mean, that's what Peter later on in the whole passage goes, if this is so.

unknown 11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Meaning, right. If everything I'm saying is true, then then here's the result. So for us, we need to go, no, this this is so. This is true. Yeah. So that's the lens we need to look at scripture, even when we don't like it.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Wow. That's I mean, I think that's this is good for people to keep in mind when you read a tough text or a text that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

You don't just set it, you don't just set it aside because it doesn't make sense. You go, it is true, but I like I wrote in my notes, help me to understand this.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

And so part of that, so that in this first section, you talked a little bit about uh the doctrine of angels and our having some kind of grasp on what we're talking about when it comes when he makes this statement about angels.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah. I mean, I I mean this sounds kooky to I mean, it it almost sounds kooky to me if I didn't believe the Bible.

SPEAKER_04 12:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

But I do believe the Bible. Like I'll read through Genesis and I'll see the appearance of angels here and here and here, and I'm not like, nah, that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

And then I'll but I'll read the New Testament, Hebrews, that says, maybe at times you've entertained an angel, or angels are sent as ministering spirits to those who will inherit the kingdom. That's us.

SPEAKER_05 12:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

And um, but I go, ah, not so sure. Not so sure that's real. So I can read it back in the day, but now when I read it about what it's telling me happens today, I'm like, I don't know if it's true. But I mean, angels are real, they're created beings by God. Uh they're they're not past eternal, only God Himself is.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

But once they were created, whenever that was, we don't know, before the creation of the world as we know it, right? Um uh whenever angels were created, we um, you know, I mean you see in the in the Garden of Eden the serpent come. Yeah you know, so the serpent Satan existed before the Garden of Eden. Wow. And so, but we don't know when. It doesn't it doesn't give us a creation date in the order of creation in Galatians or Genesis 1, 2, 3, 4. Yeah. We don't see we don't see that. So at some point God created angels, and then at some point, like scripture says, uh Jesus said in Luke 10, 18, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Wow. And then Revelation 12, 7 through 9, like it says, the great dragon was hurled down, the devil or Satan who leads the world astray was hurled to the earth and his angels with him. Like um, so we we know about angels and we know demons are fallen angels. So we know some things about angels, but here's the wild thing that Peter said here God did not spare angels when they sinned.

SPEAKER_05 14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

And so we sin, and these angels sinned, and here's the difference, though. Angels are created, we're created. The Bible says, I mean, Psalm chapter 8, verse 5, you have made them, us human beings, you have made them a little lower than the angels. Yeah. So like we're lower than the angels, in that we we don't have the same power, we don't have the same proximity to the throne presently, um, we don't move between heaven and earth like they do, these kind of things. We haven't seen what they see. Yeah. Um, but we are both created, we're both future eternal, and we both have the capacity to sin. The difference between the angels and humans is that we cannot not sin.

SPEAKER_05 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

And angels didn't, they weren't born with the sin nature that we are, but angels can sin. God did not spare angels when they sinned. Right. And so humans can sin and will sin and cannot not sin. And angels could sin and did. Yeah. And it says God did not spare angels when they sinned, and he sent them to hell.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Goodness gracious.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

So we have like angels, right? Which we got some wacko kind of ideas of angels.

unknown 15:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

And we have wacko ideas of heaven and hell. You know?

SPEAKER_03 15:21

We've got to put this in order. I mean, this is I think this is why this is there, and that Peter's making uh uh a point, like he I think he's coming off these false prophets, and he's saying God knows the depth at which this deception goes. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like he's uh he's uh to me, there's some some reassurance in these verses. He's like, I don't I'm gonna give away all the other verses, but uh like that's what I I thought this must be here because he's trying to assure people, uh his readers, of something that God knows the depth of the deception. Yeah, what's behind the deception because you know it's the angels that that uh originally preached the false gospels to the around the the globe. They all have a little bit of Christianity and they all have a whole lot of deception mixed into them, and I think that also has something to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Wow. That's good. That's good, that's insightful. God didn't spare angels when he sent but sent them to hell. So we have angels, how do they exist? Well, God created them, they send, so angels, angels sinning, and then we have hell. Right? Right. And so I mean, just the first part of a verse before you get to a comma is is some heavy stuff, and we have hell, and then we have God sent them to hell. Yeah. And how did hell exist? I mean, there's you know, there's doctrine, there's a doctrine of hell, like all of this is the theology, like ideas of God and God thinks.

SPEAKER_04 16:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Theology essentially would be ideas of God and God thinks.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

And then you have doctrine about each of these things, like doctrine of sin and salvation and creation and all these things. And we have the doctrine of angels, and we there's a doctrine of hell, like your set of beliefs about hell. Right. And um you know, if hell exists, it has to exist because God created it. And and why did he create it? I mean, to send people there to be held for judgment.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

That's heavy.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

It's it's it's the heaviest. Yeah, that's right. It's hor it's horribly heavy, and it's hard. Like Peter even said about Paul's writings, the apostle Paul writes stuff that's hard for us to understand. That's what Peter said about Paul's writings. Yeah. And what we're saying about Peter's writings is Peter wrote some stuff here that's hard for us to understand.

SPEAKER_05 17:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

So hell was created by God, angels created by God, and hell was created as a place to hold people for judgment. And then it says to be held in chains in darkness. Goodness gracious. So, I mean, held in chains would be can't get out.

SPEAKER_06 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Like you're not releasing yourself from it.

SPEAKER_06 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Which I think it's a it's a really horrible thing that people have painted a picture of angels as they are, like fat babies and cloth diapers who play the harp and sit on a cloud.

SPEAKER_05 18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

I mean, that's horrible. That's there's no picture in the Bible at all that references that. I mean, like you said earlier, you said something pretty funny.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Well, I said, you know, like I this week, uh it just brought to mind uh I was out somewhere and I saw a kid holding a stuffed bear. And this is what we've done with all these things. You think about a bear is absolutely ferocious, and if it were unleashed, it would tear your eyes out of the body.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

You wouldn't be hugging it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

And we've turned it into a stuffed animal that can be carried around. I think we've done the same thing with the angelic world. We turned angels into like sitting on clouds and playing harps, and like I immediately thought of the the cover of the Van Halen, you know, with the angels smoking cigarettes. Like we like we like we trivialized it, like yet angels in scripture were fierce. Yeah, like when they appear to Mary and Joseph, they're terrified. John in Revelation is terrified, yeah, right? There, you know, and I think we what's happened is like that whole understanding of the angelic world has been reduced to a cartoon. Yeah. You know, harps and wings and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

And I I think on the at the very basic, this should remind us that there is an angelic world, that God is as real to God as anything else on this earth. And I think, you know, he'd rather send angels to hell than people. You know?

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Yeah. I mean, he didn't make us in his image. We don't know that to be true about angels.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

But in the same way that we've done that with angels, we've done that with hell. And hell's like, oh, hell's the party place where you go party. But here it says you're held in chains. Yeah. There's no freedom and there's no getting out, and in darkness. And um, man, you know, in in scripture, when we see darkness like this, it's the absence of light. I mean, heaven is the absence of darkness. Right. It's only light. Yeah. There's no light source, it's just light. Yeah. God himself is the light, you know. Um, but he's not glowing, it's just light. There's no darkness. Right. Um, but in in hell, there's no light. Yeah. Because where wherever the presence of God is, it's light. And wherever the absence of God is, is there's no light.

SPEAKER_06 20:19

There's no light.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

And so in hell, there's no presence of God, and there's nothing good. So in hell you have no God and you have no good, and you're and change for judgment. Like whatever somebody would wrongly say, I'll take that, they have no idea. Yeah. The doctrine of hell is a horrible, it's a horrible concept that here Peter is telling us it's a real place.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

It's a real place. It's not a place like where you said, where you I always heard this, you know, I waited tables all the way through college, and I constantly heard people say, Oh, I'm not afraid to go to hell because I'm gonna go party with my friends.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

And like this what he's talking about is not that. He's he's saying it's what you're saying, the absence of light, and you're chained in a doomy, gloom, gloomy place with the hope of getting out.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

So it it's horrible. We we know enough to know that it's horrible. Yeah, hell is horrible, it's real, and God sent them there. And this is where I think people start to go, okay, wait, wait, wait. How am I viewing God now? You because I I haven't I haven't had to say this out loud that God sent angels to hell, right? Or that God would send people to hell. Well, what are we saying here about God? This is where people start to rewrite doctrines. Yes, because they're like, I can't, I can't handle that in my view of God. Right. But scripture can handle it. Right, that's right. Scripture, all of Scripture can handle it. And it's clear about it. But what I when I've reviewed reduced God to my understanding, that's what Peter, he gets to the very end of this, and he's like, if you start to speak against a celestial being, yeah, you're like an you're like an animal. Yeah, like for us to speak. Against God and go, yeah, you're not really, you would not, you're not a good God, or you're not a good judge if this is how you work. If you send somebody to hell, then I don't I don't have anything for you. I mean, he's like, you're an unreasoning animal. Yeah. That's what Peter skips to at the end of this.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Yeah. I mean, I I I think we it is overwhelming. And people, this is why people, you have to know what what you believe. That's right. You can't just go off, you know, cartoons and Gary Larson drawings in the newspaper or whatever. You have to actually have a uh an understanding about the afterlife, hell, angels.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

You know, it's interesting, like it made me think when you were talking about that, that uh 1 Peter chapter 1, verse 12 says that angels look into salvation. They long to look into it. They long to they can't be saved. That's right. They're amazed that humans can experience salvation and be delivered from torment. Yeah. And they because they look at it, they go, How could this be?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

What is this redemption?

SPEAKER_01 23:00

That's right. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

And this is, I mean, this is the the good news for us is that we can be spared ending up there.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

That's right. And so Peter here starts to describe a couple of situations where people were doomed and condemned. Okay. And then a couple of situations where people were delivered.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Really good. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

So you're doomed and you're delivered.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

There you go. It's alliterated, so it's anointed.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah, it's that's helpful. But I mean, so he didn't spare angels and he didn't spare the ancient world. He goes on in verse 5. He did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah. So he, you know, he he doomed, these people were doomed, and then he delivered Noah. I mean, they were they were condemned. God judged them. And I think the important thing to see through this passage is that God's view of what has to happen to sin has not changed. It happened with angels before the creation, yeah, and then it happened in the ancient world after the creation, before the flood. I mean, God's view of sin, the way God handles sin hasn't changed. The rescue has now been fulfilled in Jesus. But what's going to happen to sin, those who haven't been rescued, that's the same. So, I mean, Peter's brilliant here. He's building like angels before creation, and then the ancient world before the flood. Like he's talking about the pre-flood world because he he's combining it here with Noah. He's like, here's the ancient world before the flood, and that's when Matthews lived 969 years. There was a canopy of water over the earth. We can't fully understand it. It had never rained because the world was watered in different ways. But now, you know, a flood comes and it just decimated the world. And um, yeah, God brought judgment. And then he brings up Sodom and Gomorrah in verse 6. God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with burning ashes. So God used elements of his own creation: flood, fire, you know, water. Like he got God used all of this, wind, to destroy and condemn. And then he also rescued these two people. So he's dooming, and at the same time, he's delivering.

SPEAKER_05 25:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

So he has to, and he will bring out, and then we have Sodom and Gomorrah, which is after the flood. So we have these three different eras.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Wow, okay. Right?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

You got the angels before creation, you got the ancient world before the flood, and then you got Sodom and Gomorrah after the flood. Yeah. And so I think Peter's trying to tell us this is this is the way it's always going to be with sin. God is going to condemn sin and those who haven't been rescued. But he's also trying to tell us God's default is to rescue. Like God wants to rescue. And God will rescue. And so, but he he can't rescue if we're not somehow separated from the sin, because the sin is going to be condemned. And unless we've been separated from that sin by whatever other covering. And so we have Noah and we have Lot, and God somehow covered them under the righteous when we know they weren't perfect. Right. I mean they were they were not holy, but they were they were walking in the way of righteousness and they had submitted to the righteous one. They both had some stuff, man. Like you look at Noah's life, like the dude, he gets off the boat. Yeah. I can understand why, but I mean the dude gets drunk.

SPEAKER_06 26:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

You know, he does some bad stuff when he's drunk.

SPEAKER_06 26:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

And uh, yeah, man, I mean, when when the Bible calls Noah righteous and Lot righteous, I mean Lot did some stuff too.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

He did too. Like when I heard you say that, I was like, how did he get in that righteous category?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

I'm like, dude, I I I think the dude should be in jail, man. You know, for some of the, I mean, the stuff that he said and did, my how can he call him righteous? But somehow he he he was placed under this umbrella of God's righteousness. Yeah and because he was under this covering of God's righteousness, God called him righteous, and he spared those under the covering of righteousness from the destruction. Right. He delivered people that were under the covering of righteousness. All of this, of course, is a foreshadowing of the gospel. Because not you, not me, not any of us, we're not holy, we're not pure, we're not perfect, we may not be as bad as Lot or Noah in our mind, but we're all really broken because of our sin. And somehow, by God's grace, he puts us under this um his covering of righteousness, who was Jesus. Yeah. That's the covering. Because Peter went on to say, God knows how to deliver. Right. He knows how to deliver.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Yeah, I mean, well, I think that's to me, like when you got to that point, I was like, oh, I get it. Right? The extent what you're saying, the extent of sin starts with the angels and runs all the way through history. And that maybe Lot gets included as righteous, just to let us know that we also can be included as righteous. That that nothing, no one is out of God's reach to be redeemed.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 28:17

Your life can be redeemed, your situation can be redeemed.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Your choices can be redeemed. If you lived like Lot or made the same mistakes as Noah, you can be redeemed. When you get under that covering, you are declared to be righteous.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

You're you're right. I mean, Peter wasn't like Peter knew more about Lot than we know. Right. He knew his story, and here he calls him righteous. He knew he knew Noah's story, but he calls him righteous. And so, man, none of us, none of these people were made righteous because of their own righteousness.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Right, that's right. And neither are we, right? That's that's that is the hope.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

That's the gospel story.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

That is the gospel story.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

I mean, that's why Peter here keeps going, hey, God has always given grace. Yeah. He's always given grace. For anyone who's willing, anyone who's willing to be brought under his righteousness, not because of their own righteous deeds. Yeah. Anyone who's willing to be brought under his righteousness, he's always given grace. Yeah. God is a gracious God.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

And if you're sorry, go ahead. No, please. No, I'm and if you stay with the verses, you can come to that conclusion.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

No, that's perfect. I mean, yeah, I mean if we start judging and blaming God, we can't get there.

unknown 29:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

And that's why Peter Peter gets it. He's a human being, too. Um and so I love verse 9. If this is so, which I think then we I think he's being, you know, fairly um you know, he he he's just saying, if this is so, like, hey, this is true. Since this is so, yeah. Since this is true, if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly. And and he knows how to hold the unrighteous for punishment for the day of just judgment. Yeah. So God knows how to hold people for judgment and God also knows how to rescue the ungodly. We do not I think this is where it gets really wild. If we think we know better how to rescue than God. Yeah. We're not a better rescuer than God.

SPEAKER_05 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

And so if we come up with our own way or say God's way is not the right way, the blaspheming is going, I know how to do that better than God. I would be better at rescuing the world than God.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

That's not true.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

They set up their own standard.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Well, I think this is why Peter gets really strong at verse 12, you know. Or verses 10, 11, and 12. We're bold, we're arrogant, we're heaping abuse on celestial beings if we do that. We're blaspheming in matters we do not understand, like reasoning animals. I mean, when we want to build a different doctrine of hell or different doctrine of grace or different doctrine of salvation than what we're reading about in scripture, uh, it gets it gets real dangerous. It's blah, it's flat blasphemy, yeah. It's arrogance, it's ignorance, it's um, it's corrupt. I mean, Peter uses a lot of words. I mean, he goes real dark, real fast, real hard.

SPEAKER_06 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

He's like, you're an unreasoning animal, you're a creature of instinct born born only to be caught and destroyed. I mean, Peter doesn't like it that we would judge the judge. Yeah. He's like, Who do you think you are, man? Right. I mean, it uh honestly, it would get really arrogant for us to go, I think that God is a horrible God if He would if He would have such a thing as hell and even let people go there, right? Much less send people there. And Peter Peter uses 10, 11, and 12 to go, who who are you? Peter says, actually, in these verses, not even angels would dare to say what you're saying. And they've seen more than you see. They know more than you know.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

And so it would be wild for it us to sit across the table from some from somebody and go, Yeah, God's not a good God. I mean, that's blasphemy.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Yeah. Right. And that's what the the false teachers were doing is they were casting aspersions upon the goodness of God and the character of God. Yeah. I think that also ties into that. Like I I liked when you were talking about, you know, if you if you're gonna be, you can't rescue yourself. You can't set your own terms.

SPEAKER_05 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Like this idea where you said, you know, if you want to be rescued, uh, then it has to be done in righteousness. Like you can get into sin on your own terms, you can do whatever you want to do, run your life off into the ditch. That's right. But you can't get out in your own terms. And I think like I I almost wanted to hear you uh just expound. That was kind of in that's within that verses 9, 9 through 11, right in that window right there.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Yeah, I mean, God knows how to rescue. Yeah, and only God knows how to rescue from our unrighteousness. It would be wild for us to say, I got this guy. Right. I can rescue myself from my unrighteousness. I can get out of this condemnation that I'm bound to because of my sin. Like uh I'm like held in change to my own sinfulness. I can't get out of it. Yeah. And so the only way to be rescued is if we follow Jesus as the way. You know, and so Jesus is the only way of rescue. If if so, the the Lord knows how to rescue. And um, we need to know that there's only one way of rescue.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

And any other way is is blasphemy.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

And we have to submit to his authority to who he is and to be brought out on his terms.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Absolutely. There's no other way. Wow. Lord, Lord, you know, save me. I I I did I was grateful that in verses seven through eight that we skipped over briefly. Okay, that Peter, he talked about, I mean, I don't I don't know that I've ever thought about this in this way until this week. Um you know, we're just reading it more closely, but Lot was a righteous man, he was he was distressed because of their depraved conduct, right? Like um, like you know, some versions said he was tormented in his own soul because of the depravity of the world around him. Yeah. And I that's helpful for me to read. And I think um I think every human uh has it hard to some degree, like in their own soul. I I think everybody, everybody that we see and know has some hard stuff in their soul. And I think, you know, some of it is, I mean, we have tough trials that we're in. You know, I get that.

SPEAKER_05 35:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

You know, we're all gonna go through trials of many kinds, the Bible says. Some people are in really hard trials. So I think when we're looking at our own soul, we go, how much of this is the trial that I'm in, or the trial I've been in that I didn't heal from? Um, how much of this is just like a death of dreams, like life just didn't turn out the way I thought it would, or that I think it should have, or wanted to. Yeah. But some something we can identify in our own soul. I mean, Peter tells us about here, like um he was he said that Lot was tormented in his own soul because he was living daily among people who were like they were living lawlessly.

SPEAKER_06 35:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

He just daily lived among people who were so lawless, like they didn't follow God, and the world got so dark. Yeah, his whole city was this. Yeah, it tormented his soul. Yeah. And I think we have some a low-grade fever of torment in our own soul. You're right. By uh just because the the world affects us, man.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

It's a hard place to be a human, you know?

SPEAKER_03 36:17

It is. And I th I, you know, I thought today, like when I uh when we went through that verse seven, eight, and that line tormented uh because of the lawlessness that he saw, I I think it's it gives a lot of assurance. I think a lot of people go, Am I the only one that doesn't see how crazy all this stuff is?

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Like if you you you could just pick any news outlet and turn it on, and there's absolute lawlessness. And I I and I think that comes because you have someone who has the spirit of God living on the inside of them and that knows the truth, and then is surrounded by absolute madness, and they're and you feel tormented. That's right. I think this is the way the average believer probably feels tormented by what you're like. I I look at the news and go, why are there no adults in the room that can stand up and do something about this? That's right. You know, whatever it is. That's right. And I I think it helped me, and I looked around today, I think it it just gives people assurance that they're they're not like am I should I be feeling this? And Matt felt it. Yeah, he felt it enough not to turn around and look when he got it when he got out of that city.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

That's right. You know, that's exactly right. He's like, I'm not looking back. By the way, and his his own spouse wasn't there with him. Right. I mean, part of his torment seemed to be even in his own house, he wasn't he wasn't he wasn't lined up with somebody who even followed God in the same way. Yeah, maybe the I it seems like the person he maybe was married to was like, I'm fine with that place. I don't really want to leave it.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

I don't see the problem with it.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Yeah, like I I'm good to stay there. I think it is what it was. It wasn't just like a I don't think it was just a simple look of curiosity, though maybe, yeah. But I think it was more of I I think I'm okay to stay in that.

SPEAKER_06 38:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

And so I mean that's comforting to go. One, lot was lot lot was dealing with this broken world too, and it was hard for him in his own soul. And second, sometimes even the people closest to you don't share your convictions. Yeah. And that that's hard on a on a human being. And Lot was tormented in his soul.

SPEAKER_03 38:26

And we are gonna be too, as long as we're in this world. A believer is gonna be tormented by see.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

That's right. Yeah, which I think creates part of our longing for the return of Jesus. Um hey, I I'm ready for you to come back. I mean, this has been happening for a long time, I wrote under these notes for a lot, right here. Like what what we're dealing with right now, this broken world, it's been happening for a long time. And it's gonna happen until the return of Christ. Yeah, however, this is all reconciled. Yeah, you know, and I mean, it gets into another doctrine, which is how how how does this all end up?

SPEAKER_05 39:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

You know, do we just live here until you know nobody else can live here? I mean, is it all flame out with one final standing human being? I mean, what happens? Yeah, I mean, the Bible actually gives us answers for how did all this get here?

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Uh what do we do while we're here? And how does it all get fixed?

SPEAKER_05 39:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

I mean, the Bible gives us answers for all of that, and everything else is just human conjecture, man.

SPEAKER_04 39:31

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

And so I think it's good comfort for us to know hey, it's been hard here for righteous people for a long time. And it will be until Jesus returns.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

That's right. That's some powerful stuff.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Any final thoughts on this before you close up?

SPEAKER_03 39:47

I just like part of me for all our viewers wants to go, see, I told you so. Like, if you just stay with these verses, there's a lot of hope in it. Yeah, you know, and there's there's a there's a lot of really positive principles to know that, you know, if you've if you've been hurt by false teaching or a false teacher or something, God knows it and he sees it and he's gonna judge it. You don't have to harbor it. You don't have to harbor that for the rest of your life. You can and you can move on. He knows how to rescue you from it.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

Right? I mean, like to me, like I look for all those kind of those meta-narratives, you know, like this is the big takeaway, like for someone who's been hurt by terrible teaching, like that doesn't have to determine the rest of your life because God's gonna judge it and he's gonna rescue you from all this old erroneous ideas and lead you into a way of truth and freedom and hope.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

That's a good word. Yeah, I think uh we we keep seeking the Lord, serving the Lord among the righteous who are who are who are none of us are are are are perfect. And um, I think that's the beauty of living in community that we're people who we've been put under the righteous umbrella umbrella by the grace of God, that's right, not by our own goodness. And everybody we live in community with around here, say same story.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

And so we're like we look in the eyes of other people and go, hey man, I got my stuff, you got your stuff, and Jesus still, by his grace, is calling us righteous, and he rescued me. That's right. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 41:21

I mean, it is, and when I and I think this is kind of the undercurrent of all these verses is that like I well, you know, as we're talking, I'm going back and even looking at these last few verses. Like this the people blasphemy matters do not understand, like unreasoning animals and creatures of instinct. Like, and how crazy that is. Yeah, like born uh only to be caught and destroyed like animals. I mean, like this is I mean, this is these are our choices, right? I can either live righteously or I can end up in this category. That's right. Right? I mean I mean is there is there more to say about that in terms of you know, like you said, we have to have a posture we don't understand what the eternal God of heaven understands, and he knows he sees something we don't see.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

I I think as I read through this passage, it's just a really good place to go. The themes I see here are God is going to judge sin. Yeah. He he did before, he did again, he did again, he is always going to condemn sin. And you have to be rescued, because the Lord knows how to rescue. You have to be rescued from that and and be made and be called righteous by God. Yeah. And um, if you don't think this way, it's blasphemy. Yeah. Because you're thinking there's another way to be rescued, or that God doesn't just sin and you don't need to be rescued. And if you're angry at God about this, you're like an unreasoning animal who's shaking his fist at God like a human being judging a celestial being, the words that Peter used here. Right. And so I think these are principles we need to keep in front of us. And that's why for me I want to keep a posture first of gratitude. Yeah. God thank you. Yeah. That you good, that you took my condemnation on yourself. Thank you, Jesus, for taking my condemnation on the cross. Thank you for defeating its consequences by rising from the grave. Thank you, Jesus, for doing so. My first posture is gratitude. My next posture is humility. Wow. Wow, I don't understand all this stuff. Uh I don't I can't get all this. There's no way I'm gonna accuse a celestial being of something lesser than a human being. Wow. And so that that would be animalistic arrogance. Yeah. It'd be the arrogance of an animal to tell a human how to live. And so Peter's strong on all that stuff. I think this. How we live. Good conversation. Anything you want to say before we go?

SPEAKER_03 44:03

Man, no, I think we've said it. I mean, I think there, you know, there's I would just ask everyone who's listening to listen to the sermon today if they haven't heard it, and to spend some time in these verses. Like just because they're hard, that doesn't mean they should be discarded. That's right. Like there's act there's our real life-giving principles here, and I think when you look at it, uh, you know, we just need to like we did today, we just need to walk through it and say, God, speak to me, show me what you're doing. I mean, I think without an understanding, like when we started this today uh with you know him talking about angels and being chained in darkness, I think when people don't understand that, this is where the idea of annihilation comes from. You know, people they just erase heaven and hell and go, it just ends at this life.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

And Peter's saying, no, wait a minute. God's God dealt with this at when the when the first angels fell, he judged them then, he judges them now, right? There there is this it it went from the angel realm into the first human beings. I mean, I mean, this is not you can't just write this away by going, oh, I don't believe it exists, therefore, when I just die, it's over. You know, we're dealing with a there is a life after this life, and this life is just the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

That's right. You know, yeah. Uh that that's Peter's warning at the end of the passage. Do not think that you do not rewrite this. Yes, right. That's right. Do not reject it, do not rewrite it. Yeah. Because this is how it is, and if you if you rewrite it, it's blasphemy. Yeah, it's arrogance, and it's animalistic.

SPEAKER_03 45:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

It's it's ignorant. And so don't go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

No, I was just gonna say, is there anything that you think people like you said, posture of gratitude, humility? Is there anything you that you would say to people, this is how also some choices you should make in light of these verses? Like if you're just gonna pastor someone through this, like you'd say, you know, g make sure your heart is you live in gratitude because you uh you can be redeemed and rescued. Remember that you don't get to, you know, write your own rescue plan. And then would you say, like, man, there is there something practical someone could do this week to live this stuff out? I mean, if you were gonna pastor somebody through it?

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Well, I mean, everything I like to look, I think we should all look at everything through the lens of the gospel. This whole passage is the gospel.

SPEAKER_04 46:29

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

And it makes the gospel bigger for me. Like, Jesus saved me. Wow. Yeah. That changes the way I see God, it changes the way you see myself. I mean, but also this passage changes the way I see other people. Yeah, I'm gonna walk around other sinners with more humility. Well, I I am that, but by God's grace. And I'm gonna I'm gonna walk with them with more urgency. Yeah, like this is real, man.

SPEAKER_05 46:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

And so the people around me who haven't allowed Jesus' rescue, the Lord knows how to rescue, and it's only through Jesus. Yeah, it it gives me a sense of urgency for the loss. Oh, that's good. So I have gratitude, I have humility, and I have urgency. Urgency, really good. Yeah. Dave, thanks, man. Great conversation. Thanks for walking through a tough passage with me. Thanks for doing this.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

Looking forward to next week.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

And um, hey, thanks for watching this. We're really grateful for you. If it's helpful for you, like it, share it, subscribe to it. That'll help people find it. If it's not helpful for you, steward your time better. Do something better. Uh, you are loved. Have a great week ahead. Thanks for spending time with us today on the Rethink and Return podcast. Here's all we ask from you Will you subscribe to this, share this, let other people know about it. That'll help us get the message out. Share this content with other people if it's helpful to you. We're grateful for you. See you soon.