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The World Through Zen Eyes Podcast
What we do?
Once a week we take a look at the going-ons of the world and say something about ‘em.
The goal?
None, really. Just trying to make heads and tails of the great world roar of Ooommmmmm.
Why?
To try ‘n keep a modicum of personal sanity. And stay off both the meds and the cool aid.
The point?
Points are sharp and therefore violent. We just go around, and round….and round.
Disclaimer:
The views, perspectives, and humor of the speakers and guests of this podcast do not necessarily represent the those of any associated organizations, businesses, or groups, social, religious,cultural or otherwise. The entirety of the podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Topics discussed and views expressed do not constitute medical advice. As the saying goes “Opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody’s got one”.
The World Through Zen Eyes Podcast
Ep. 20 - Freedom's Paradox
FAN MAIL - Send us a comment or a topic suggestion
What does true freedom really mean? In our milestone 20th episode, we unpack this deceptively complex question, revealing how our understanding of freedom often remains superficial until we achieve liberation from our own mental habits and patterns.
Freedom isn't simply doing whatever we want. From a Zen perspective, genuine freedom only emerges when we break free from the prison of our own thoughts—the rigid mental frameworks that filter every experience through our preexisting beliefs. As we demonstrate through candid conversation, most of us live in a state of mental captivity without even realizing it, mistaking our conditioned responses for independent thought.
We explore the fascinating concept of "Mupung Pado" (no wind but waves)—how our minds generate turbulence even in the absence of external stimuli. During meditation, when external inputs are minimized, unwelcome thoughts still intrude, proving we're not as free as we believe. Our reactions to life's circumstances often happen automatically, with little awareness of the complex causes and conditions that led to them.
Through relatable examples like household conflicts over cup placement and personal stories of monastic training, we illuminate a profound truth: freedom comes from acknowledging multiple perspectives beyond our own. When we cling to a single truth—our truth—we remain imprisoned by our expectations, disappointments, and emotional reactions. True liberation emerges when we develop the wisdom to move fluidly between different dimensions of understanding.
As we celebrate our 20th episode and over 1,000 downloads, we invite you to join us in this exploration of what it means to be truly free. Listen closely, and you might discover the subtle ways your mind has been creating its own captivity—and how the path to liberation begins with awareness itself. Share this episode with someone who might benefit from seeing their mental prisons in a new light.
Dr. Ruben Lambert can be found at wisdomspring.com
Ven. MyongAhn Sunim can be found at soshimsa.org
Hello, my name is Jane and I'm a member of the Soshimsa Zen Center. If you haven't heard, one of the many benefits of our Zen Center is a weekly podcast entitled the World Through Zen Eyes. You can find it on the Soshimsaorg website Just click on the podcast's page. It's a conversation between our abbot, the Venerable Myung An Sonam, and Dr Ruben Lambert, a Buddhist monk. The subjects of their conversation vary from week to week and are often suggested by listeners. Our hosts discuss life questions and concerns within the timeless wisdom of the Buddha. Their discussions are friendly and informal. Their discussions are friendly and informal, peppered with humor and personal experiences. We hope you enjoy the lively conversation and benefit from the wisdom of our hosts. Don't forget to listen for the notification on your phone reminding you that the podcast is ready, and thank you for your support.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to another episode of the World Through the Eyes podcast. I'm Myung An Sunim here with I'm Dr Ruben Lambert. Welcome back, fourth of July.
Speaker 3:Yes, independence Day, a day of freedom, right, that's a special day because that's kind of like what we're doing, right. We're trying to help people liberate themselves from the tethers that bind them to, the things that make them suffer Greed, anger, you know, things that hold you back and keep you in place, from being successful in your life. So it's kind of like symbolic. I think, that we're here on the 4th of July because we are freedom fighters too.
Speaker 2:To a certain extent. Well, from the pure kind of Zen perspective, we say one shouldn't even mention the word freedom until one is free from bonde, from the habitual sort of functions of the mind, from the worries and anxieties, all of those things, and until then the word freedom really is rather superficial. We don't know what that means, and we don't know what that means truly until a certain level of meditative absorption. Actually, it's not even the Chosun Samme, not even the first Samme, so it is.
Speaker 3:I guess right now we just get snapshots of that no.
Speaker 2:Not even Nothing. We get nothing, we get nothing. The idea of freedom that that we have within our lives is because, you know, then I guess the question must be asked freedom from what? Well, right, and so freedom in its sort of pure word meaning it's to be free within a dome, a domicile Right, a kingdom or some kind of a dome, so there's a set of boundaries within which we could act sort of freely. So it's not otherwise, it would just be anarchy, right.
Speaker 3:And some free domes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are free.
Speaker 3:But you're within the sphere of a certain set of rules and regulations that we agreed upon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but as far as psychologically speaking freedom, the idea of freedom is, we truly have no idea of the meaning of the word.
Speaker 3:I guess it ties into khajum khaanyum right. It ties into our karma episodes and things of that nature right. What are the things that feed our consciousness? Right you have that example. I think I don't know if it's different streams flowing into a greater ocean or different wires and things like that like all feeding one Right, and we're not even aware of where those streams came from.
Speaker 2:No, no, and we're so much at the mercy of see what we think. We think.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was we think, we think.
Speaker 3:I feel like that was like those infinity mirrors, one layer building upon another layer, just it's more like the carnival mirrors the ones that warp and bend and yes, our, you think you're seeing a reflection, but what you don't see is that the mirrors at this time was worked right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why we think, we think. But you, I mean, to what degree do we suffer confirmation bias? To what degree are we driven unconsciously by the mechanisms of our habit or karma, etc. Etc. You know, we think. Oh, I had a thought. If we trace the building blocks of the thought, it's just cobbled together from the experience, and a very limited experience of a person, no one. I mean the proclivity of the mind to skew towards that which we know, because otherwise it can't skew towards something we don't know. So it skews only towards something that we know. So it's just. And then, if you've considered the incoming new information, whatever that information may be, it passes through a filtration system of, like you said, kojong kwanyeom, our fixed, preconceived notions, et cetera, et cetera, and it ends up being just do I agree or disagree? And do I agree? Equates to does it match my already established viewpoint, my already established paradigm, my already established paradigm, my already established identity, my already established self-identity.
Speaker 3:You know, that point you're making feels to me like it's almost the heart of all conflict in life, because when you're having a conversation, are you truly having a conversation or discussion? Are you trying to mold that person into matching what you're already thinking? You know very well we've talked about this that some people ask questions they don't really want answers.
Speaker 2:They just want you to Right. They either come back with questions sort of challenge questions or they just want confirmation.
Speaker 3:They want you to confirm what they're already thinking or believing right you to confirm what they're already thinking or believing right. And also, when you walk out into the world, how many things don't match what you wish for at this very moment, and I think that's the seed of what Complaining, complaining.
Speaker 2:That's why freedom, when freedom is a real thing that one has, there's no complaining.
Speaker 3:Right, I guess we can use that Altair as a measure of how far along you've traveled, right? Did a complaint arise in your mind about something? Well then, you still got more work to do.
Speaker 2:There's no complaining, there's no anger to do. There's no complaining, there's no anger Because they are all just. It isn't how I want it to be. So we're bound somehow. And not only are we bound, but we then are forced to have an emotional response to a thing, or a violent response to a thing, or what have you so we are, or a violent response to a thing, or what have you? So we are, to a large degree, a puppet, you're just pulled.
Speaker 3:In my mind, like this metaphor rose, like this image of someone you know you can walk, let's say, to the park, or you could be pulled violently into, let's say, a workout gym and you don't want to be there working out, right. So in one, you're going towards it with happiness, acceptance, complacency, and the other one it's against your will and once you arrive in that new destination, all that's going to come is just aggression following that, because you're in a situation you don't want to be in. But, like you're saying, like our thoughts come and we don't, we're not really fully aware of the course or the the course that it took to get there. So we just react without even knowing wow, that's. I mean, I'm sorry, that's I.
Speaker 2:I mean, I hope everyone can just sit with that for a moment. See, the react element too has so many levels. I mean, when you say react, I suspect the listener I'm thinking lightning flash.
Speaker 3:A to B. And then here you are. It's like being dropped into the middle of a movie or something like. You have no idea how you got there right.
Speaker 2:like yeah, and I think that the experience of that reaction right is is sufficiently loud enough that a person has an iota of self-awareness, right. They could note that this is why I really overreacted. Usually it's in think about it right.
Speaker 3:So an even more profound point go ahead, because people say right, like, oh man, I overreacted, right.
Speaker 2:So there's like there's the reacted, and then the overreacted is usually what's commented on. I think you're overreacting on this, right. So there's a somewhere, there's, there's a level of acted. I mean reacted, that is okay, I guess Right. And then there's the overreacted. That means you're reacting, but too much, right, but we're talking about more subtle things. So overreacted is a very big kind of explosion, like you said. Or a lightning flash that draws attention. It's oh wow, right, kind of explosion, like you said. Or a lightning flash that draws attention, it's oh wow. But then we have reacted, which is simply one could say well, it's just a response to the life around us. I mean, we react to the world. But that could go deeper and deeper, and deeper and deeper, because a reaction is a response to a stimuli of some sort, right, and so we most likely think of reacting to a thing I've seen or heard.
Speaker 1:You know or felt you know something you didn't like.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, so you throw up. Yeah, so they're. They're externally bound, but and and so the with this definition of freedom, it's same thing like, well, am I externally bound? Right, if I'm, if I'm in shackles, then I haven't the freedom. But there is, and this is where meditation practice makes us befriend our own mind, or at least visit our own mind, because you could be sitting there. And so we have the saying Mupung Pado, which means no wind but waves. So if we are participating actively in the world and doing things, the winds of the world are obvious to us for the most part I see, hear, smell, taste, touch, and those things make me feel, etc. Etc. But then consider a meditating person sitting perhaps with the lights off and maybe not even incense burning to stimulate the reaction of the you know olfactory, the olfactory bulbs, the olfactory bulbs. You know we're not listening to, you know to music, a Tibetan flute, or whatever you have.
Speaker 2:So in a sense, to a large degree, let's assume that a person could sit for one hour without feeling physical discomfort. So from the moment you sit down to the moment that you begin to feel physical discomfort, there isn't a wind, and yet one is besieged by thought, an unwelcome thought.
Speaker 3:Unwelcome thoughts. An unwelcome thought.
Speaker 2:Unwelcome thoughts, unwanted thought. Because I'm going to sit down and I tell to myself I'm going to sit down and I'm going to focus my mind on an object of meditation, whatever that object may be, and everything to myself. I'm going to sit down and let's say, focus on breath or focus on counting or mantra or whatever it may be. So let's say I'm meditating on the breath. So I sit down, I say to myself I'm going to meditate on the breath and that's it.
Speaker 2:Good luck, if one is free then one is free to make that decision, and that be it.
Speaker 3:But I want to.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm doing actively. This is my decision. I'm going to focus on the breath. Oh, but did I turn off the lights when I left the other room? You didn't order that thought, you didn't welcome that thought. That thought is an intrusive thought. Crash the party Right. Frequently, we think of intrusive thoughts as maybe perhaps some kind of a dark kind of thing, but in its more subtle stages.
Speaker 3:It doesn't have to even necessarily be dark, right? If you are leaving to work and you have important things to do there and you have this thought lingering that I turn off the stove. That thing, You're splintered. Yeah, your mind is not at ease at all.
Speaker 1:You're captive of what Actual damage didn't occur yet.
Speaker 3:Right, it's not like someone got hurt or there was an explosion or anything like that. No, it's just a right, so the subtlety of it is missed.
Speaker 2:It's missed it's.
Speaker 3:I guess it's almost like it's also not a one man band. It's not a one man show. Right, you sit down and you're like I want to now focus on my breathing. And then somebody stands up and says I disagree. Who's that? Your nose, what's?
Speaker 3:going on, it's itching like now, at a time like this. Now you want to tell me that you're itching, and then, you know, ankle says oh god, you're leaning on me right now. It's been so long, gosh, can you just move that there? And then, plus a barrage of past memories and thoughts and ideas. Well, and that's the thing, you're not alone at the party, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, if we start throwing, people throwing participants out of the party.
Speaker 1:You weren't invited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm able to sit, so Enko doesn't complain. I don't have incense or anything, so there's no smell. All of those things are.
Speaker 3:I have thrown out all of those we can say this is the just breathe party. I mean, you need the just breathe invitation and if you don't have it sorry, you got to go there, you go, right.
Speaker 2:Right. So why is last week's interaction with my neighbor all of a sudden kicking the doors in and storming in and helping itself? How about me? Right, right and helping itself to my plate?
Speaker 3:Oh, it's a Even for your dish.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So that's not freedom, no, but actually I mean, this is a good topic we could go with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, I actually wanted you to comment, Hold that thought on the subtle nuances too, that on the way to this ultimate freedom, the subtle nuances that meditation can afford you, Because I remember last week when someone was talking or was it two weeks ago about the subtle changes that occur with the feeling of anger. You were talking about overreaction and what people notice. Yes, people feel the emotion of anger, but what people are not in tune with are the nuances right. Were there hormonal changes? Were there weather changes and things of that sort? And that kind of just speaks to what you were saying earlier. Right Is that people don't have freedom, they're not even aware of how they got there, because we're not in tune with those processes, and I think meditation is a tool that allows you to be more wakeful.
Speaker 2:And on one level. That's what I mean. That we're dragged, you're dragged, yeah, we're dragged by so many various sort of forces and we rarely consider more than one.
Speaker 3:That's another thing, right.
Speaker 2:Because usually we look for justification of an experience the justification of the experience if it were a negative experience, usually looking for a place to extend our blame onto. So usually somebody else, something right that can link to the overreaction, right and Right that can link to the overreaction right.
Speaker 3:Someone you know, my spouse put the cup, didn't put the cup in the sink, and normally it bothers you, but today you screamed and yelled at him or her. That would be like the overreaction. And then what do we normally do? We blame the cup not being in the sink. But then, linking to what I, I think you're about to expound, is we're not a we, we have our habitual reasoning for what is the cause and we miss. Well, did that day you wake up and your hormones were different? Did that day you wake up and some weather change, barometer pressure or something had an impact on your circulation, whatever it might be? The energy flow, the key energy and things like that, those, those things change day to day, moment to moment. Right, and we're not in tune with that. Yet we still here's, kodim kwan yom, our habitual way of thinking blame that one thing, that sole thing, and miss the whole thing Because our senses are externally facing and we are informed by their presence and we rely on it as one ought to.
Speaker 2:I'm afraid what happens when we talk of things like this, that some people then jump to saying Anytime a point is being made, it doesn't deprive of the other end of the thing. We're really trying to highlight the whole spectrum of human experience.
Speaker 3:Right. I think people love to put things into extreme categories and they have a hard time. We say this too all the time putting two opposing points in balance or in harmony with one another right, and so they assume, if you're talking about the shortcomings of your external senses and the part that people miss, that it means just throw it away. Yeah, You're not saying that.
Speaker 2:No, no, we're not. The point being is that we are, like I said, our senses are externally facing and, as such, this is how we are informed. There's a reason and a purpose for that. There's a reason, purpose, etc. Right, but that renders us sort of an automatic setting.
Speaker 2:And you know, if you consider the Buddhist training, and one of the first things, xin-nyom-cho is this body, xin is a body, nyom is like awareness, cho is a place. That's, if you translate verbatim, like the words themselves. That's what they mean and essentially what it means is bring the attention to yourself. And of course, again, it doesn't mean that you should now have self-deprecating thing and I'm stupid because I did this and you know that's not it. The idea, however, is that perhaps, instead of only looking for the why in the outside world because that's the first place to go with sensory experience one also must consider the inner world of mind, making my mind, making a thing. Is it really, is it really such a big deal that the couple I'm, now this is there's going to be, there's going to be rocks thrown at any moment now that I say this? But is it really that the cup shouldn't, that the cup wasn't put in the sink or whatever. That's a touchy subject.
Speaker 3:It is a touchy subject. I'm touching touchy subject Sinks can cause World War III in households, Sinks and dishwashers absolutely.
Speaker 2:But that's the thing. So you know, hold on, hold on, Put down the pitchforks and the torches, because I'm not done yet. Is it the end of the world that the cup hasn't been put into the sink or a dishwasher? No, it's not. Is it going to be the end of the world if you put the cup in the dishwasher? No, it's not Right. So I'm not saying people requesting the other person to put the dishes where the dish is supposed to go, why not? We can ask the other side why not put the dishes where they're at? Because a person is so tied up in their own-ness. There's their ego-ness, their selfishness essentially is what it is, and the idea of consideration is usually, or frequently or at times. I don't want to offend anyone, but the idea of consideration is something that perhaps comes as a second, third, fourth, fifth and tenth thought. Yes, In the ordering of things.
Speaker 3:For the one person getting angry. It's first in line.
Speaker 2:Right, and for the other person it's seventh in line, and. And for the other person it's seventh in line.
Speaker 3:And that one is hidden. That's why there's so much misunderstanding.
Speaker 2:That's why this, the story, the biblical story of the Tower of Babel, is absolutely correct.
Speaker 3:That's how they start talking. Kids babble Well, and that's the thing, correct.
Speaker 2:That's how they start talking Kids babble. When they Kids babble, right, well, and that's the thing. But do kids babble? No, they're talking, they're talking. Yeah, right, and this is again. We are horrible at communication.
Speaker 3:Because the person that's mad. Here's what they're thinking. That's the 900th, 999th time I've had to tell you to put the cup in the sink. Right, right, another person wait.
Speaker 2:So I have a question perhaps to this hypothetical person, right? Yeah, so in 999 times? That's like an embassy in the world, because they carry that thought in their mind at that moment, but yeah so two, two points one if, if you and you on your way to tell the other person that the the one time, the 999, so now the thousandth time your trip fell, hit your head and forgotten like 999 times of their transgressions bam enlightenment you're free. Transgressions, you're free. You're free of that.
Speaker 2:On the other hand, right and and I'm just playing to a certain degree- devil's advocate but so the for the person who told the other person 999 times to not do something, and they continue doing it. How do you see, then, that person's persistence Right? I mean, on one hand, the other person was told 999 times to put the cup in the sink let's say and they still didn't learn right so they're not a very good student.
Speaker 2:on the other hand, the person has told the other person 999 times and seeing that a lot of person hasn't learned, that person is not really a good student, because didn't you learn a lesson that you told them 999 times? And they still didn't do it. On what account and what logic does one then think this time is going to work? They will now know they haven't learned in 999 times.
Speaker 3:What makes you think. What makes you think?
Speaker 2:what makes you think that it's going to work this time? It's an expectation, the expectation that they will, the expectations that they're going to learn and jump into conclusion.
Speaker 2:They're just a dummy right, or they're selfish, or what have you and that kind of thing goes both ways, and so what we get is fights and arguments on account of um. Well, to swing it back to freedom, the freedom for one person, the freedom to um not be so perhaps preoccupied with their own thing and note that how important, or it's not even importance, how much helpful so bodhisattvahood, how much helpful I could be to this other person if I just put this cup where it goes or where it's easier for them to, if they're doing the washing up and all that. And then, on the other hand, right, the freedom for the other person to um either reorganize or or, or at least in some grace and mercy, understand that the other person, for whatever reason, is just somehow, maybe genetically, maybe just unable to put the cup in the sink. Right, because then both people are imprisoned and neither one of them is free.
Speaker 3:Right, so freedom forget about it, forget about it.
Speaker 3:Do the the work you were saying but no, I was saying like um, in that moment I was thinking. Some people think to themselves. Let's say, the person that's angry at the person who didn't put that cup into the sink uh, it's true though they would. They'll argue me and say it's true. I've told them 9999 times and for that person I think it's just because it's true. It means that that means that some thought or idea that you should continue to carry. Maybe we should ask you to think well, it might be true, but is it helpful? Is that idea of the past and that record that you've kept it's 9,000.
Speaker 3:Was it helpful? And here's the story that I was thinking about, because not everything that's true is helpful. While it might be true, it might not be helpful. Remember when we went hiking many, many moons ago and there were the Spanish mother and the two daughters and it was the first time they went hiking. This was in Elizabeth. Okay, yes, and then you did a pack check before we left, thank goodness, because they were bringing these huge rocks.
Speaker 1:Rocks yes, To hammer down the. What is that called the tent stakes? Yes.
Speaker 3:So that's a situation where it might be true that a rock is very efficient, but it sure as hell ain't damn helpful when you're going on a hike. Yeah Right, so that's what you did for them. You're like, okay, let that go In the same manner. Sometimes I think we got to do like an emotional pack check and you can't just hold on. Yeah, it might be true, you might, but, man, sometimes you got to let go of things that are just not helpful for you.
Speaker 2:Well now let's consider this right. Let's imagine that the pack is a mind or a head, you know metaphorically Well, the head is almost like a little sack.
Speaker 3:right, it's a sack.
Speaker 2:So you're hiking pack. We're all going hiking every day carrying this backpack, this neck pack, this sack, this container, and when making the decision to bring a rock, put a rock in there. Is it true? Yes, is the truth that stakes need nailing in? Yes, and what if it's rocky things? So maybe they had an experience last time and they tried to do it and it didn't work et cetera, et cetera, et cetera et cetera.
Speaker 2:All of those things can be true Now. A person ought to look for more truths than just their own individual truth.
Speaker 2:That is to say, it is also true that the likelihood of wherever we're going to pitch a tent, there's going to be a rock available within. You know, eyesight, eye shot, it's going to. So it's true, you need something to nail the stakes, it's true. Iraq will do, it's true, you could bring it with you.
Speaker 2:But it is also true, and this truth now is outside, and the truth of another is true, and this is this is why. This is why when we, when we speak to someone and they report on whatever experience of life that they may have, when we measure against only our truth, we deny the other person their truth and vice versa, right. And so the idea is, when listening to a person and recount an experience, of course we have to think, yes, it is true, because it is true, it is their experience, true to them, right, and it is true. Therefore, true to them is true, right, true to me. That truth is not true to me, but true to me is also true, right, true to me. That truth is not true to me, but true to me, is it also true? That's why this whole idea of this one kind of a finite truth thing is another fallacy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, people can't make that. Yeah, so to negate then the individual. This is going to get into. What was one else thing, the essence and the Taeyong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe that should be a whole other category.
Speaker 3:But yeah, if you negate people's individual experiences, I think the initial response is just conflict to what we've been talking about. Right, you're just completely negating Because it's ego.
Speaker 2:Mine is more true than yours, right I think, george carlin has that, that, uh, that bit about people and their things right. I love his act right my stuff is stuff, your stuff is junk, yeah, he says another word but, we're PG, so my stuff is stuff your stuff is crap and you know we have storage facilities for my crap, because my crap is so much important.
Speaker 3:It points to some industry. The whole industry is revolving around people's crap.
Speaker 2:People's stuff your crap my stuff.
Speaker 1:Right your crap my stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is how that works. So to mention, the word freedom in this context is we haven't the freedom. We haven't the freedom so long as we have that organization of thought and that mine is the truth or mine. You know, I've asked you 999 times to do the thing. I have the freedom to move through my day or move through my life without being sort sort of punished by my refusal to accept some reality, which is that that person, even though they were told 999 times, still doesn't get it Right. They just may be missing that part of the brain, you know. And so we have that.
Speaker 3:Because what is the person who is, let's say, knee-deep or entrenched in asang, or governed or controlled by ego and lacks insight or awareness? What are the things that they're noticing? Only Only the very, very loud things, right? They're not privy to the subtleties of life.
Speaker 2:Well, they would argue it's not loud. See, a person might not verbalize it exactly, so they might not say, oh, it's not loud, it's what's important, and my stuff is stuff and your stuff is crap. So what is?
Speaker 3:important to me. It's like a spotlight on the stage you have the option of. This is what you're noticing, because I've deemed this person or this event or this situation to be the main character. So now, spotlight right on that.
Speaker 2:This is what's important to me, what's important is what I declare is important. What is important is what is important to me. This is the function of the ego. Ah-sang, ah-sang is ego, but ah means me, or I or self. Sang is an image.
Speaker 3:An image. An image, yeah. So that's where the trouble lies, is the image is something that was created.
Speaker 2:Right, so like a self-view. And then when it doesn't match, Right, it's a self-view, it's a self-image. And it's not only that it's a self-image, it's self-image that is sort of adhered to and and and kind of really at. There's a rigor mortis attachment to it, right?
Speaker 2:so what you get is a c of a you know of a fortune 500 company who struts his stuff in a sense because he he, there's a position which he serves and and, but then that image of self that let's say it's needed for the, for the situation I work, you know you're, you're in a board meeting, you have to present, you have to radiate a certain you know authority vibe, right, but then you can't go home and radiate authority vibe to your family because you're not a CEO of your family.
Speaker 3:Right Demanding people to see you that way.
Speaker 1:I'm the CEO Now you have to.
Speaker 3:That reminds me of the story I'm going to put you into it. When you, early on, first ordained and you became a Sunim and you wanted the Sangha, the members of the community, to put you into it. When you, early on, first ordained and you became a Sunim and you wanted the Sangha, the members of the community, to call you Sunim and you go to our teacher Onsanim, and you say Onsanim.
Speaker 2:Wait, hold on. Okay, wait, Let me tell the story.
Speaker 1:Go ahead, let me tell the story Because I'm afraid I took a lesson from that too.
Speaker 2:It's big. I took a lesson from that too. It's big. It's a fantastic lesson. We were still in Korea. All right, there you go, we're in Korea, and the days leading up to my ordination are coming up. Yeah, and I think we had just gone to the tailor to get a set of robes made, so perhaps I was freshly.
Speaker 3:Fresh robes. You got the fresh linens there. You're looking sharper.
Speaker 2:And so I went into Insanim's room and we were in a hotel and he's sitting in a chair and I sat down on the floor. Mind you the imagery of this. This is like the old way you learn at the feet of the floor. Mind you the imagery of this. This is like the old way you learn at the feet of the guru. And so I sat there and I say Insanium, when we go back to the United States, nobody knows sinium, really what sinium means. They know reverent whatever, but nobody knows what sinium means. And they know reverent whatever, but nobody knows what sinyam means. So I think we need to sort of teach people the meaning of sinyam. So when we go back, maybe. And I think I said like are you gonna call me sinyam Right?
Speaker 3:Which is which is, and then I think you're also, you wanted it, because you wanted everyone to call you Sunim Right. So by, by example, the parallel point right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so by example. And so I'm saying he says, yeah, you want people to call you Sunim. I said, you know, for the purpose of education. Yes, you want people to call you Sunim? Yes, then do Sunim things. I. You want people to call you Sunim? Yes, then do Sunim things. I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1:I've never forgotten.
Speaker 3:You're looking for this.
Speaker 3:Like you know, the clouds depart and the light to come down and I just love how the Zen master can just cut right to the point and touch exactly what you need at that moment to grow. But real quick, before you go on. But then I at that time I think it was 2008, I think 2009 I graduated with my doctorate in psychology and I took that lesson and I transformed it into a mantra in my own head. If I want people to call me doctor, do doctor things right, the same thing right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that's the thing. It's the titles themselves right. The same thing right. Yeah, because that's the thing. The titles themselves right Are an advertisement.
Speaker 3:But it's not asang imposing to what we're talking about too. It's not the asang imposing on others to do or act a certain way because of my title. It's the hashim humble approach. First you do.
Speaker 2:Sinim, it's sort of we sometimes translate as venerable, right? So it's like oh, essentially, you want people to venerate you or you want people to you know honorable or respectable. You want people to see you as respectable to respectable things.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:If you do crook things, people are going to see you as a crook, because you do crook things Right.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:If you do X, y and Z things, the people are going to see you for that thing. I mean, unless you want to perpetuate again some kind of a, you know, clouding their perception with falsehoods and pulling wool over their eyes, et cetera, et cetera. So if you want people to see you as you want them to see, you do the things for people to, so people are informed by your action, not by you saying ah, you call me this and it was so brilliant. I mean yes.
Speaker 3:That was brilliant.
Speaker 2:That was a brilliant moment, do sunim's? Um, there are absolutely moments like this that just are like splinters in the mind and and they're, they're so impactful and so you never forget those things. Hopefully not because has. Because Hashem right, the humility right, it is working against, because consider when in our lives do we and this is true for anybody when in our lives do we, do we learn some philosophical lessons perhaps of, let's say, humility? You know you really ought to be humble and respectful of others, etc. Etc. You know, and this is different than graveling before other people, but since we're on the subject of how minds tend to respond, if you say humble, sometimes what people hear it as you are to gravel before someone. So what it seems to suggest is a undermining of self-worth, or my confidence worth or my, you know, my confidence, confidence and humility are not in conflict to one another.
Speaker 3:So this idea, yeah, I usually tell people like that could be a whole other episode too. Right, because we have to make a clear distinction between gravelling and Hashem. All right, and we have people that we encounter that act like they're so humble, but really, behind the curtain, it's like their head eats up all the oxygen in the room. So I guess it's sometimes. Is it a gold-plated effect or a mask effect? On the outside they appear that way. Are they rock solid? Just the same thing with titles. Do you live the title? Do you, did you earn the title, or do you just want people to call you that without doing any of the work associated with it, right? So yeah, you put you know. Sunim robes on a scarecrow still a scarecrow, right?
Speaker 2:There's a cartoon, I think it's Osam.
Speaker 2:Oh right, there's a Korean cartoon yeah, of a brother and sister, I believe, that are orphaned and I think she's blind, and they go to a temple or something to that effect and the young boy is rather mischievous and one of the monks at the temple is looking for his set of robes and he can't find them. And he's kind of searching for it and sees there's a deer wearing the robes and he can't find them. And he's kind of searching for it and sees there's a deer wearing the robes. You know so the little boy had done and put the robes on a deer kind of thing, and this is akin to it's a cute image, but it's akin to what?
Speaker 3:we're talking about right you know what deer now, what they can. Yeah, it's akin to what we're talking about, right? You know what deer now?
Speaker 2:what they can. Yeah, it is. I think I said one time said something I think we were talking about Peng Nym Sa Temple and he said it's like putting pearls on a pig.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, and that was kind of the same adjacent at least idea. But when speaking of freedom, on one hand, we have to understand the meaning of the word in context of society, that it isn't just mayhem and anarchy and I'm free to do whatever in the world I please and choose to do. That is anarchy.
Speaker 3:It's a violation of human rights. That's the end of that road, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, that is. It's a violation of human rights. That's the end of that road. Yeah, right, and. And so the idea of freedom is that we are free to operate within some confined, really actually, of some rules, and, and it's not confines are not is not the right word. Maybe what we are free to do is operate within a set of rules that we have agreed upon, because it is a game.
Speaker 2:It is a game, right, and each country has its own set of rules, and each dimension of life and each worldly dimension and the spiritual dimensions have their own sort of rules that govern those realms of existence. And so we've agreed upon something, whether consciously or unconsciously, but we have to recognize this, something, whether consciously or unconsciously, but we have to recognize this. We agreed on the universal agreement, or at least here, that a red light means that you stop driving and a green light means that you go or or keep driving and there's no promise that we all make.
Speaker 2:Right and there's no super magnetic force and shield that's going to stop your car Right. And we stop the car on the red light because we have agreed that then allows the other person to go.
Speaker 3:And that creates mutual safety, that's a freedom. It's a freedom for all to travel.
Speaker 2:It's a freedom for you to not have right, to not die unnecessarily. It's a freedom for you to not be constantly besieged by fear as you're driving that at any point in time you know it's just this lawless wild west of an intersection and if you make it, you know you call your spouse on the phone who's like honey, I'm going to an intersection If I make it through you know let's have lunch.
Speaker 3:Check if my will is still active, because this one is a roll of the dice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that would be a hellish existence. So there's a freedom within an agreed, collectively agreed upon thing thing. Now, collectively agreed upon is, in our current climate, is a very different can take on a very different thing because my cats can't seem to agree upon some many of the points but but then?
Speaker 3:but then we have that. What is a group of bandits point that you can make for the if they get stuck on that right? Or you know, and Sanam gave us a metaphor one time I think we might have been hiking, or maybe at Bangnam Sa, and he said look at the trees, right? So two trees were growing towards each other and occupying what looked like they were trying to occupy the same space, but one tree doesn't overtake the other tree, they literally merge and then shoot upwardly side by side. And that was a beautiful imagery for how to almost cohabitate or occupy the same space without one overtaking the other one, one empowering, over-empowering the other one, imposing on the other. They knew their limits, knew their boundaries, and both were able to rise up and get the sun that they were looking for.
Speaker 2:Well, sometimes, sometimes, the big ones steal the sun and murder off the small things where the vine? Wraps around and chokes the light out of. So there is a but see, that is also now we're talking about. There's a natural set of rules and regulations, right, and then there's the man-made, and if we so, we could look for certain inspirations and certain expressions of nature to apply to our human society and then, on the other hand, try not to be like some of the things.
Speaker 2:So we have the intellect that makes us, gives us the ability to pick and choose, right. So it's like if you're hungry, you just don't eat the gazelle, right? But then also a lion that's full, the gazelle will come over and step on its tail and the lion will just, you know, kind of whimper maybe, and won't kill the thing because it stepped on its tail. But then you have octopus that bend together with fish so they scare things out and the fish. So there's like an interaction between octopus and fish, right. But from time to time, for seemingly no reason scientists still don't know why the octopus will just punch the fish, boom, right. Whether it's to assert its, this dominance, right, because there's the situation doesn't call for it. Like it's not like the. Okay, we're working as a team. I'm gonna stick my you know tentacle into this, into this hole, and then, whatever comes out, you get to eat your things and I get to eat my things and let's say, the fish started eating everything off and the octopus like, ah, excuse me, this was a partnership, right?
Speaker 2:so it doesn't seem to be that right. So it's almost like, maybe just like dominance, or who knows what. The octopus thinking just, you know, check, jab, you know, um. So we have, we have that, uh, pliability, and this is again, we have to acknowledge and highlight the fact that we have just that ourselves, and and to rise above and to transcend certain animalistic behavior, certain, you know, and that's the thing.
Speaker 2:So we have an ego, it does the things that it does, and we practice and train ourselves to understand what it is, what it does, how it does it, when does it what. And then, because we are human beings, we have the ability to say I'm not gonna, or I'm gonna, or I'm gonna sort of highlight or develop this one part and I'm gonna, you know, kind of stop feeding this other part of of, whether it's personality, quirks or idiosyncrasies, or the way that I am, or what have you. So we are really a fantastic creature, but there's a need for understanding, et cetera, et cetera. And so we went from the societal to the humanistic, and then now, if we highlight the spiritualistic, if you will, until we can recognize, realize, until some level of spiritual development, the very tender and precise dense of balancing is not available to us. So freedom from that perspective, from the.
Speaker 2:I don't know. We want to call it higher, transcendental, transcendent kind of thing or more subtle, whichever way you want to look at it, wherever you want to place it, sublime. So yeah, from some, from that standpoint, for us to speak of freedom is, uh, not correct. And then to for us to further interpret and misinterpret freedom in the context of living in a societal structure, as I do what I want, it is also not correct. So we need, of course, as always, wakefulness and knowing where we are.
Speaker 2:If one truth it's that rock thing that you brought up, if it's true that rocks are useful for nailing spikes, but it's also true that there are rocks where we're going, and it is also true, then that you don't need to bring a rock, and if you continue looking at it, there are so many truths available to us, and knowing on which truth am I operating, and having that flexibility, because if I only see the truth of you know I need to nail in these spikes then you fail to see the truth of the place you're going to, and so that's the thing. Freedom, in a sense, the best that we could kind of muster up here is the freedom to be able to move from one dimension to the other and understand the rules and regulations and the laws and the functions and the what of that said dimension and operate within it.
Speaker 3:In essence you're saying jihye or banya Jihye wisdom yeah, develop wisdom. I know a wisdom tradition that you know helps you develop. That is the ultimate goal, yeah, but so, yes, develop wakefulness so that you can be aware, right, if you're not aware, then you cannot enact any kind of change in your life.
Speaker 2:And acknowledge that there are multiple truths.
Speaker 2:And that need to be viewed and and, and that where to move from one show to the other with an understanding, not with the kind of I bring my truth into your life and I force feed it to you. That's not a truth, because that's my truth, but it violates the truth that is your truth. And so there's some mutual understanding that is required, some transformative ability, the pliability and, like I said, we are endowed with it by nature that we have it, but it's not the only truth. The only truth isn't that we're flexible. There's also the truth that we're very rigid. There's also truth that we're very fixated. There's also truth that we're attachment prone and desire prone and anger prone and jealousy prone and whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever. All of those things are truths. And knowing within which realm am I operating, how to navigate through, all of those things are truths, right? And knowing within which realm am I operating, how to navigate through?
Speaker 2:all those things and acknowledging the other side, and then maybe the person that was told 999 times realizes the truth of the fact that that other person who told them so will be happier.
Speaker 3:Just that I have a million mothers that would be happy if what you say becomes true, right.
Speaker 2:Right. And then the mother then, or somebody else, being able to acknowledge the truth of the other person, for whatever reason, right seems to render them incapable of the simple, simple, simple task. And is it possible that the way that the task was initially presented was the lesson not sufficient for the other person to understand? Was it just I told you and you do as I told you so? Or is it sort of dominance, right and imposing of the thing? You put that thing over there. You hear me. You put that thing over there. You hear me. You put that thing over there, you hear me Right. What if it's like over there, you hear me, right. What if it's like you're helping me by putting this thing?
Speaker 2:I know it's not a big deal, but it expresses our mutual understanding, our love for one another, that you could put the thing over there and that's just. You know, sometimes a nice bouquet of flowers on a wednesday, just out of the blue, is a nice. Bouquet of flowers on a Wednesday, just out of the blue, is a nice thing. But also sometimes, if that cup lands where it's supposed to go, that's a nice thing too. And so maybe we don't know what we think, you don't know what I think. I don't know what you think, and in acknowledgement of that, the only way of communication that we have is external. So it's the verbal or bodily communication, and by doing that thing, it's not about the cup going there, it's about what that means.
Speaker 2:There's a symbolism to everything in life, and if that cup going in, where it makes my life easier, it's a symbolism of you saying you care Right, and we can go back and forth. So it's freedom from one's only truth and adherence to that truth, regardless and despite of what the other truths may be. That's right. That's the other thing. It ain't freedom, because we're imprisoned by our own thinking and then our emotional states and our psychological states are then imposed on us, because we are not free from being subjugated by the other person's behavior. So freedom, ha Bahamba, yeah, until next time. I'm Young Ansonim, take care of yourselves and each other.
Speaker 3:I'm Dr Ruben Lambert, From my heart to yours. If you like what you heard, please tell someone else about the World Through the Night podcast and share all the goodness that we are sharing with the world with others.
Speaker 2:Please, topics. Give us topics. Today, by the way, is a 20th episode 20th episode.
Speaker 2:so we we really never anticipated the I was going to say longevity of it, but it is longevity when, when initially setting up the podcast platform, one of the things that that one is kind of warned is to say that most podcasts die out by like eight episodes or 10 episodes, whatever the number was. So we're at 20, thanks to our listeners, and again we're in our little truth. For us, 20 is a significant thing. Also for us, the fact that we have over 1,000 downloads that's a fantastic thing too.
Speaker 2:I'm sure there's podcasts that have a thousand downloads a day.
Speaker 3:For some people we're stuff, for some people we're junk.
Speaker 2:But that's their truth.
Speaker 1:That's their truth and this is our truth and kudos to them.
Speaker 3:Listen, progress is progress and we're going to celebrate these milestones Indeed.
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