Hanna Curman & Week 2: Why Do Successful People Burn Out?

The Trust Tax Investigation – Week 2

Why Does This Happen?

Last week, we discovered that burnout rarely begins with collapse.

It begins with a quiet moment when success no longer feels sustainable.

This week, we ask a different question:

How did we get here?

Through three remarkable conversations, you'll discover that burnout isn't usually caused by one overwhelming event. It develops through small adaptations that quietly shape the way we think, lead, achieve, and relate to ourselves.

Together, these conversations reveal why the most dangerous version of burnout can still look like success.

This Week's Episodes

• Monday — Hanna Curman: https://hannacurman.se/

Why expectations slowly disconnect us from ourselves and how awareness helps us reconnect with what matters most.

• Wednesday — Melanie Gray: https://drmelaniegray.com/

How the nervous system adapts to chronic demand until constant pressure begins to feel normal.

• Friday — Angela Kerek: https://angelakerek.com/

Why high achievers often tie their identity to achievement, responsibility, and being the person everyone depends on.

The Question We're Investigating
Burnout doesn't usually happen because one day becomes too much. It happens because we slowly adapt.

We meet expectations before our own needs. We normalize constant pressure. We begin believing our value comes from how much we can carry. These adaptations eventually become the stories we live—and those stories shape the way we lead.

Continue the Journey

If this week's conversations are helping you recognize your own story, I'd love to invite you to take the next step.

On October 15, 2026, join comedian Merit Kahn and me at Walsh College in Troy, Michigan for Rewrite Your Story.

The podcast helps you understand the story you've been living. Rewrite Your Story helps you choose the one you'll live next. During the day, you'll participate in an interactive workshop designed to help you recognize the stories driving the way you work, lead, and carry responsibility.

That evening, Merit Kahn's inspiring and hilarious one-woman show, Optimistic Personality Disorder™, helps you see those stories from a different perspective—and maybe even laugh at the ones you're finally ready to leave behind.

Because you don't have to abandon your success.

You simply need a story that lets you enjoy it.

Learn more at RewriteYourStoryEvent.com

Coming Next Week
Week 3 asks a bigger question. If these patterns begin inside people... What role do organizations play in reinforcing them? We'll explore how well-intentioned workplaces can unintentionally reward the very behaviors that eventually become the Trust Tax.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 1:03

If you only remember one thing from this week, remember this. Burnout doesn't begin the day you feel exhausted. It begins long before that. Welcome back to the Trust Tax Investigation. Over the past week, we've been asking a simple question. When does success stop feeling like success? And it feels like a trap. Since July 20th, we've heard three remarkable conversations with Danielle Griffin, Zoe Thompson, and Sandra Wood. Three different careers, three different life stories, yet they all describe the same invisible turning point. Not burnout, not collapse. The moment they realize I can't keep doing it this way. Danielle reminded us that our bodies often recognize the cost before our minds do. Zoe showed us from the outside, things could look good, but internally, something doesn't align. An achievement alone isn't enough. Sandra revealed how easy it is to spend years performing a version of ourselves that the world expects while losing touch with the person underneath. Different stories, the same realization. Something had changed. If you haven't listened to those conversations yet, I encourage you to go back and start there. They laid the foundation for everything we're about to explore. Because this week, our investigation takes a different turn. We're no longer asking what happened. We're asking why. Why do intelligent, capable, caring people slowly become disconnected from themselves? Why do we normalize caring more and more responsibility until it simply feels like it's who we are? Why does burnout seem to surprise us when in reality the clues have been there all along? This week you'll hear from three extraordinary guests who approach the questions from very different perspectives. Hannah Kerman, Melanie Gray, and Angela Couric. Different disciplines, different expertise. Yet together they reveal something remarkable. Burnout isn't caused by one bad day. It's the result of patterns that quietly shape how we think, how we lead, and how we respond to the world around us. Today, Hannah Kerman helps us understand how belonging and psychological safety shape the way we carry responsibility. Let's get started. Looking back, were you paying that tax or were you doing something else? And what's the difference?

SPEAKER_02 4:20

That is really a beautiful question. And I think that we should place that question to ourselves more in our daily lives. Because I think that the answer, it's not a it's it's really not an easy answer. And I think it depends a little bit on the situation as well. Because of of course I would say yes, I was paying. And sometimes maybe not. It depends on so you you spoke about or you introduced this with the Friday afternoons. Friday afternoons in Sweden, because that is where I am brought up and I still live. Friday afternoons at the at the in the business world, that is when you have your fika. And fika is when you are drinking coffee, you are doing the chat, you are talking about what happened during the week, and you are talking about what's gonna happen during the weekend. And it always is during the Friday afternoon. Of course, there's a difference now after the pandemic when not all people are in in at the office. But before the pandemic, it was Friday afternoon. And I have more or less my full professional life been working in in positions where I might not have been belonging to a team by the office where I'm seated. And it was something that that really came very clear to me. It must have been when was it? Maybe 20 years ago. The situation that I'm gonna talk about. And that is then I had my my office seats, my my space at the office. It was just by the FICA or the coffee machine and by that also the FICA room. And as everyone was coming there on Friday afternoons, taking their cup of coffee, having their chat, and I could hear those sounds, the the laughter, the belonging, the the team spirit, all all the the yeah, the chit-chat that they had there. But as I did not belong to a team, I was not really invited. Right. And I didn't really I didn't from the beginning I I I told myself that I don't care. You know, I'm out traveling, I'm the global one, you are the local ones, I don't really care about you. You know, I'm the busy one, I'm the one that that's that are seated on the on the airplanes and you are just seated here in the coffee table. You know, I try to to convince myself that I was in a higher position than they were. But of course I wasn't. And then I started to place meetings during after Friday afternoons because that also gave me a feeling of it was me taking the decision not to belong instead of me feeling excluded. So that was that was a part of a lot of things that were going around in my in my system back then. And we are talking about 20 years ago. So it it it's but I remember it as it was yesterday because it is so stuck in your body. All those feelings are stuck in your body.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

So yeah. So what did going through that experience, what was the thing that caused it to come to a head and why how did that impact your life?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

I think it impacted my life in in such a way that I I I mean, this with the Friday afternoons, that was so obvious what I was doing then. That I put myself or took myself out of the uncomfort of not belonging. But also as I I was the one that that was globally or working on on a global arena, and the other ones that were in the same office as I I was then, they were working locally. So so that was also something that I was in some sense working in a different way. But also this with with when you are even though I I can say by by for sure a hundred percent, they did not exclude me. I was excluding myself. There's a big difference between excluding and including. We can come back to that. But how it impacted the rest of my life, I I was really, really longing for belonging. So wherever I was or or whatever I did, I was I was really chasing belonging. I was chasing opportunities to feel that I am part of you. And I think that is the backside of that kind of position that I I had. And it impacted me in the way that I I got frustrated, I was sad, I was always in a very high speed. Quite awfully I was angry. I remember when my daughters were teenagers and and many years later that when they were teenagers, and and we had a dialogue and discussion, and they said to me that, yeah, but mama, you were always angry. And and of course, as a mother, that is really not what you want to hear. So uh a few single things that that you if you're not observant of those small things, it can be have a huge impact on many parts in your life and and and really how you feel as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

So in one of the things that you said is that you had a perfect career on paper, because we talked about that. Travel, you got to see lots of cultures, you were making an impact around the world, and you were yet still feeling angry and something was missing. In my research, I find that high performers in stage two of what I call a cascade of overperformance or not taking on the right level of responsibility start surface problems and owning problems becomes a problem. Were you hiding something from yourself during those years, or were you like generally not seeing it yet? Do you think?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

You make me embarrassed. I am a high a high achiever. I would never admit that I I was hiding anything.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

No, but really, yes, I do I do believe again, I do believe that I can answer yes on both those things. I mean, there are things that I I was not really not not yet aware of that I am aware of today. And of course, when I got aware, I could make the changes as well. But also I think that there were things that I was hiding, such as this bel need of belonging. I think that was the the major thing that I was hiding, and not really giving myself the opportunity or giving myself the truth, because when you say that you don't belong to someone or that you feel that you don't belong to someone or somewhere, that also means that you are weird. That also means that you are not wanted, it also means that you are are yeah rejected. All those things that it that is really punishing punishing yourself.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

I love that you said what this means is, what this means is, because I I find even for myself is that when I'm feeling something not so great. Here's an example of a situation. I put out some reports and my I realized that my initial report was not accurate. So I reissue a report to myself and I send it out. And um and I think to myself, well, perhaps, you know, it it would be helpful to for someone to understand how I got here. So I provide the the first report as well as the final report, the initial in the final. And the person only looked at the initial report, not the final, and then accused me of not doing the job. And I it's like, what does this mean? I immediately got so defensive and I responded angrily. Like, how dare you accuse me of not doing my job right? And I have to take a step back, it's like, wait a minute, you did your job, they looked at the wrong report, they didn't look at everything thoroughly as they should have. My reaction, you know, is like, what am I taking this to mean when they say blah blah blah? And there that is the meaning of the meaning right there. Hannah, Melanie, and Angela aren't telling the same story. They're answering the same question. How do capable, caring people gradually become disconnected with themselves? Hannah reminds us that it begins when we spend more time living up to the expectations of others rather than listening to ourselves. Melanie explains what happens when our nervous systems adapt to the constant demand. High alert becomes normal until we no longer recognize what home feels like. Angela explains how our identity quietly becomes tied to achievement and responsibility. Until caring more isn't just what you do, you can leave you off. Different perspectives and explanation. Burnout isn't caused by a single attack. It's the result of small adaptations that over time become the way we live. We stop listening to ourselves. Our nervous system learns that constant pressure is normal. Our identity becomes wrapped up in proving our value. None of it happens overnight. And that's exactly why so many people never see it common. As we return to today's conversation, ask yourself which of these adaptations have quietly become normal for me. Because once you understand how you got here, you can begin to choose a different path.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that is one of the things that I'm working with, as I'm working with C-suite high achievers organizations and and and leaders who are in a transformation. They they want to take the next step. And they might get stuck in the way that they are doing and performing. And the first thing that I always do is to take them through the clarity chain where we start with spot. Spot to code direct. That is something, a pattern that comes goes over and over and over again. First of all, spot. What is it that that I'm feeling? Start to recognize your breath. Start to recognize your muscle tensions. Start to recogn recognize how you're using your voice. Are you very in a very, very high speed, or are you kind of soft and and relaxed? But really to start to pay attention to all the signals that you have within your body and when those are when you let's let's talk about the breath. Uh when do you have very shallow breathing and when is it deep? Because that will give you a hint of what makes you nervous, what makes you anxious, what makes you angry, what makes you sad, and all those things. And that is the second part where we are decoding. Okay, so now you know that when this kind of situation comes up, as you reckon you told me that uh someone told me that I did not do my job perfectly or correct, that triggered something in you, right? Majorly. And of course when you start to recognize that, then we can also say, why do you why do you why does that situation trigger you? That is the decode part. Okay, so why does this trigger you? It might be something that you have been bullied for when you were a child, or it might have been something that your parents were expecting you to always perform and do the correct things. Hey, why did you not have 100% on your on your test? And then and and and and also we know by fact now, by by research, we know that it might be something that not that that your ancestors might have been connected to or or uh affected by that will impact you as well because our genes remember, our genes remember several generations back. And I think that is so interesting. Yes. That is a specific uh recording, I guess. But but but just having that first spot, okay, what is it? What start to recognize your feelings and triggers, and then see, okay, why is why does this situation or this it can be a word, it can be a sound, it can be a smell, it can be a lot of different things that trigger something for you and decode them and see is does this really belong to me or not? And as you know that, then you can direct. So that is the final part in the in the in the loop in the clarity chain. Then you can direct and say that yeah, let's keep this because this is really a great trigger to have. Let's push it and use it forward. Or it might be something that this thinking pattern that I have, or this reaction that I I tend to get or whatever it might be, that is not good for me. And it's not good for my team, it's not good for my peer, it's not good for my family, it's not good for anyone. Well then we can release it and put it in in the wardrobe or or burn it up or whatever. So when we're to working with the clarity chain, those are the things that I I go we go through over and over and over again. And and and pending on where we are in the maturity in the transformation, we use it for different things.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Gotcha. So just going back to the original topic, so you were talking about leaders defaulting to overfunctioning control or avoidance when pressure rises. Because this, because there's some trigger, I call that overfunctioning versus the trust tax. The system routes unclaimed work to whoever will catch it. Because maybe that person cannot stand to let things go. And the capable person absorbs it without a memo or a meeting from a neuroscience standpoint. And also we can talk about the example that I brought forth. What is actually happening in that person's brain when they keep saying yes? And it's really a choice, or is it the nervous system already decided?

SPEAKER_02 22:22

And I think that we know we need to go back to to to why what the brain is really wired to do. There are only two things that the why that the brain is wired to do, and that is the first thing is to keep us alive. And the second thing is to reproduce. It's the only thing that we need to do, right? Yeah. And if we just look at the thing, how that that is wired to key to s to make sure that we stay alive, and the easiest way to stay alive that is to stay out of threat. So that is why the threat respond is so strong. So I think that that is that is just to understand that will also explain a lot of actions that we do. And here also, when we start to understand that, we can and I I I will answer the question that you you placed as well, but when we start to understand that, that is also when we can get rid of shame and guilt. Because we feel so guilty of so many things, and we are so ashamed of things that we are doing, right? And then we try to hide them. But if we can get rid of the shame and guilt and just say that, mmm, I did that because my brain is wired to keep me alive. That is the reason. It might not be that you have done the perfect thing, but it's a reaction from the nervous system. And what really happens is that if we if we stay with the thought that yes, we are always constantly seeking for threats, that is the only thing that we are are doing. We are seeking for threats to be able to stay alive. And when we are in a situation where we feel as we do, many of us are in a very uncertain world right now. Yes, the uncertainty is really there around us, which means that we are are in a constant threat mode, looking for for patterns, looking for something that I can hold on to. Because my brain wants to see patterns. My brain wants to understand things. And to be able to do that, we we are releasing cortisol. up to the front front lobe prefrontal cortex. So if if the the prefrontal cortex is the the working memory and and the machine and it needs more fuel to be able to really have look for all those threats and try to make make make logic out of things and and try to find the patterns and try to solve things then you will get this cortisol as to increase the blood flood in the brain. But that also means that your thinking will narrow down even more you'll be focused you will be focused because you're supposed to be focused. You're supposed to know exactly okay I just need to grab my baby and run the hell out of here because I am going to stay alive and I want to bring my kid with me. Yes. And when we are talking about kids at work it's not our biolog biological kids. We have other kids at work and then I'm not talking about our team members I'm talking about the task that we are responsible for the things that I have created my thoughts what I am there for.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Those are my babies my report my re your report is your baby and you will you will make sure that those reports are surviving and not question yeah yeah that makes a a hundred percent sense to me I feel better after talking with you about the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

So the question the way that I remember you place the question is what actually happens to us when we narrow the focus and why do we do that? Was that more or less the question? Yeah so what is happening is that you are just doing what you are supposed to do. The thing is that you need to start to recognize when you are doing it. So I'm coming back to this I understand starting to recognize your own patterns try to start to see what is it around me that is threatening and it's not the lion that is threatening to me but it might be my boss or it might be my peer that is is uh constantly competing with me instead of supporting me. Yes. So it's yeah there are so many different things in the in the business world that are constant threats for us. Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

So once you are able to name that that concept is so powerful and you're what are some steps that you could take to let that go do you think well you need first of to be able to start to recognize those signals if if we should start with that if you still should start to recognize the signals you need to be able to regulate yourself.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

When as long as we are in a survival mode I usually talk about that we are either in survival or thrive. When we are in survival mode which we are 80% more or less most of us during the day then we don't have the ability really to to spot those signals. So what we need to do is that we need to support ourselves to be in the thrive system. And to be able to be in the thrive system that we need to be able to feel psychological safe and then we are coming into the psychological safety at work. And there are so many great studies done by psychological safety and what it actually means to the work environment and what it means to us as humans and what it means to us as leaders and and and whatever there are so many great great research researches there. What I find is is quite often that we talk about it in a little bit too shallow way that we are talking about that yeah everyone during the meeting everyone should be able to speak up their mind. Yes. That's fine that's fine. That's a starting point but what about the hierarchies? What about the uncertainty? What about the relatedness coming back to me m my Friday afternoons I was not in a in a a psychological safe environment there because if I were I would have just taken my cup out to the out to the to the room and said hey can I join? But I wasn't because it was not a psychological safe place to be to do to do that.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Was it not a psychological safe place to do it because of where you were or was it the team or was it a combination do you think?

SPEAKER_02 29:41

A combination I would say but I do believe that it was also a a lot connected to me. And and I don't think that I took the responsibility for myself in that in that during that time. And what I mean with that is that I did not take the responsibility for myself to really feel my feelings speak my feelings feel safe myself and and it's and of course that goes back to childhood and the connections to my parents and all those things. Right. So so it's it's when when I'm talking about going deep down and work with psychological safety I do believe that we need to work on the individual level as well as the team level. Just take the the values as an example one of my major values is trust and there is a reason why trust has such a great impact on me. I have lost trust I have gained trust and I know the difference so for me when wherever I'm stepping in trust is extremely important for me. But I'm also very cautious about it. But for someone else if you're talking about trust it might be I trust that you are releasing your report in time so it might be something totally different.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

So as you're working with C-suites how do you do you also that that particular value is that something that you bring out with the folks that you're working with in the C-suite?

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Hmm yeah when I'm working I was talking about the clarity chain with the which is the framework and we have different steps there as well and and we're going through 15 different steps and the first part is is on the individual level where you start to recognize your things you start to decode them you start to understand them. We talk about what are your values why are those values important for you what's your North Star why is that North Star and all those though all those things and then also share them together because when you are and and and again when you are vulnerable enough to be able to share your inner values and your North Star in your management team that is when when magic happens yes so that is kind of the first part in in the in the in those five 15 different steps uh and then the next module part or whatever we want to call it that is when we transfer it into the business environment okay so what's your business environment or your business values what's the the North Star here what's your purpose what's your mission what's your why are you here? Who who do you serve? Why do you serve them? Really to make sure that you are in line with with because there is also where you can see that my values do not really go hand in hand with the values that we have in this business environment or at this office or whatever it might be. And that will show up and then it's time for you to take a decision. Okay, should I stay or should I actually um find something else?

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

What I can say is that if you decide to stay even though and and of course it it can be that those values they they might go hand in hand even though but if they kind of really don't go together and you you decide to stay, that's not a good idea. Right, I see it that will make you burn out that will impact your body your health everything and it will also impact your performance and it will also impact the rest of the team so it's it's so important that that we actually talk about the those things and not as something that we are have as a poster on the on the wall but something that we really talk about. What does it mean for you? How do they how does the our values connect to your values?

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Gotcha so I like to close with every episode with a similar question. And so say a person woke up this morning and they've been a person that's been running since 2019 since right before the pandemic started what do you want them to know not do but to know before the end of this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

You are not alone I think that is that is the first thing you are not alone and there are things that you can do and the first thing that you should do is just to take a moment breathe in for three hold it for three breathe out for six that is the easiest way for you to regulate your nervous system. It will impact your your pace it will impact your your your body rhythm it will impact everything so really to understand that you are not alone and I would also say that if you haven't already started to uh support get that get support and and help to really turn this around it's better to do it today than to do it in three we three years or five years because it's easier to to change the way that you are acting reacting moving forward the sooner the better well and if you found yourself here to this podcast you know it's important so get started today.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Well thank you so much Hannah for being on the Unsealing you I appreciate your energy I appreciate your honesty I appreciate the honesty that we both brought it's good to have actual stories and uh I thank you for being here thank you for having me here. Over the last two weeks of the trust tax investigation we've uncovered two important truths. In week one we learned that burnout really begins with a collapse it begins with a quiet realization I can't keep doing it this way. This week we asked a different question how did we get here? And our guests have given us remarkable answers. It's not through one catastrophic event it's not because we're not resilient enough but because over time we adapt. We learn to meet expectations before we meet our own needs. Our nervous system begins to accept constant pressure as normal our identity becomes tied to achievement responsibility and being the person everyone can count on these adaptations don't happen overnight they happen so gradually that they begin to feel like it's who we are but they're not who we are they're what we've learned. Next week we take the investigation one step further if these adaptations develop inside us what role does our organization play in reinforcing them how do well-intentioned workplaces unintentionally reward the very behaviors that eventually become the trust attack that's where we're headed next. Until then I want to leave you with one question. What have you adapted to that no longer serves you? Because the moment you recognize that adaptation is the moment you realize it can change. I'll see you next time as we continue the trust tax investigation