The Redeemed Backslider
“Welcome to The Redeemed Backslider—with your host, Kathy Chastain, Christian-based psychotherapist and a redeemed backslider. This podcast dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
In Luke 4:18, Jesus proclaimed: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed.’
This is the heart of our message. Whether you’re wrestling with regret, despair, seeking freedom from spiritual chains, or longing to see the light of God’s love again, you’re not alone. Here, we share testimonies, biblical truths, and encouragement to remind you that no one is too far gone for God’s redemption.
This is your invitation to find healing, hope, and restoration in Jesus. Welcome to The Redeemed Backslider—where grace is greater than your past and your future is abundant when God redeems your story.”
The Redeemed Backslider
God Was Too Hard- TRB#16- Tamara Farmer
At just fifteen years old, Tamara Mazon-Farmer had her world shattered when someone she deeply admired in church delivered a crushing prophecy: she would never marry, never have children, never know that kind of love. This devastating message—which she now recognizes as a false word—became an identity she "put on like a jacket" every morning, eventually driving her away from faith entirely.
In this raw and vulnerable conversation, Tamara courageously traces her journey from devoted church girl to a life consumed by addiction and darkness. After walking away from Bible college, she plunged into years of alcohol abuse, married an atheist, and faced increasingly dangerous situations—including a chilling supernatural encounter that forced her to call on the very God she thought she'd abandoned.
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Kathy has two books out and they can be found on Amazon or Barnes & Noble online:
Redeem California, With God it IS Possible:
God of the Impossible: 30-Prayers for the Redemption and Restoration of California
Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your host, kathy Chastain. Christian-based psychotherapist and Redeemed Backslider. This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
Speaker 2:Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider. I'm your host, Kathy Chastain. I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and I'm also a Redeemed Backslider. With me today via Zoom is Tamara Mazzone-Farmer, and she hails from Illinois. So, Tamara, welcome to the broadcast.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to share what God has done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm excited to hear your testimony For the viewers out there. Tamara, her mom and dad attend church with me and she grew up apparently in the same church that I did. But I think when you were there I was out being crazy, you know, not serving God at that time, so I don't remember a lot of you know of you being there. I don't know how old you were when you ended up leaving, but I was away from our church from the age of about 14, 15 to 28, and I'm much older than you, so you're probably just a little kiddo at that time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember seeing you come and visit the church and sit with your parents for special occasions and holidays and stuff, um, so I do remember you, uh, and I knew that you were friends with my parents. Um, but my family, I, we didn't we sorry, I'm a little nervous Um, we got in church when I was 10. Oh, when you were 10.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, yeah. So I wasn't raised there from a baby baby. I was 10 years old and had a friend invite me to Sunday school and I kept coming to Sunday school with her, and then her parents invited my parents, and so here we are.
Speaker 2:Do you know what year that was, by any chance? I'm just curious what year was it when you were 10?
Speaker 3:93.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, yeah, I don't think I was not in church at that time when that was. So I okay. So tell me the story. The story you were you the first one then to come to church, and then your parents came after that. It sounds like what you said.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my friend invited me to Sunday school and I would come with her as often as I could on Sundays because all of my friends went to some kind of a church and we were kind of the only family and I come from a big family, so we're the only kids on the block on Sundays so anytime I got to go and do something else and I loved it. So any chance I got I went to Sunday school and then when her parents invited her mom, actually invited my mom to come, and my mom came for two years before my dad came into the church.
Speaker 2:Okay, and then where do you fall in the lineup of children? Are you the oldest, youngest? Are you the oldest?
Speaker 3:I am the oldest of six.
Speaker 2:Okay, you are the oldest. Okay, so tell me what life was like growing up at 10, coming into the church, having your mom come in. I know a little bit about your mom and dad's story. Maybe one day I'll have them share it. But when they did get in church they got all the way in. I mean it's pretty miraculous what God did in their life.
Speaker 3:Yes, god instantly changed my parents and my family unit just became so much stronger and we always had a really strong family bond. That's just the way that we were raised, even from little kids. I can remember us always being super close. But when my parents gave their life to the Lord and started going to church, everything changed, but in a good way. It was peaceful and God was in the middle of it. And for my mom, I think, the transition was a little bit easier than it was for my dad. But once my dad jumped in, I mean, like you said, they were all the way in sold out, and so it was amazing. We had a wonderful childhood. I don't think I could have asked for a better childhood than the one I had.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's beautiful. That's really nice. So walk me through your story. I know that you were in church and then you became a backslider and you're living for the Lord now. Where do you want to begin?
Speaker 3:Well, I'll just start at the beginning. So from the time I was, we'll start like youth camp age, I would go to youth camps and I would, you know, get involved as much as I could. From a really early age I felt a call to music ministry and so I grew up singing. My dad plays guitar and he sings, and so we would go and we would sing at different, mostly Spanish churches or different you know events and stuff, and so that started when I was probably 10 or 12 years old and then I joined the youth group and the youth choir and I jumped right in.
Speaker 3:I didn't have a problem transitioning. I don't ever. I was trying to think today. I don't think I was one who ever had a problem with, you know, standards or being different. I knew I was different. I knew that I was kind of an awkward kid. Anyway, I'm kind of an awkward adult. That's just who I am. You know I've learned to embrace it.
Speaker 3:But you know, so I just I don't remember struggling in that way through school. I was fortunate to have other girls at my school who only wore skirts and who had the same standards as I did. So it wasn't too difficult, I should say. I'm sure I fought it a little bit, just because when you're 10 years old you want to, you know, fit in with all your friends and stuff. But I don't remember struggling with it that much. My hair was probably my biggest struggle and that's mainly because I didn't know what to do with it. I have all of this, you know, massive amount of curly hair and I have no idea what to do with it. So, again, it was just really good.
Speaker 3:You know, our youth group was fun, we all I don't feel like we were real clicky, I feel like we all kind of got along and it really was wonderful. And so I was involved with as many things as I could be, just to occupy my time. And I wasn't interested in, like school things because I wanted to do God things, I wanted church things, I wanted, you know, to be a part of what God was doing. And so I would say that my heart change, I guess, happened when I was about 15, 15 or 16. There was somebody in the church who I really, really looked up to and, looking back, I definitely had her on a pedestal because she had everything I wanted she had the most beautiful voice, she had a beautiful family. She was anointed. Everything that I, you know, as a 15-year-old child, could think like, wow, if I could be like somebody you know, I would want that type of life or that type of ministry.
Speaker 3:Not knowing of course, what was going on behind the scenes, if anything. But this was somebody that I had really admired and we had went to a youth service. It was at another church and while I was there of course, when you're 15, 16 years old, you're checking out the boys and all of that stuff and I had made a comment about somebody in particular and I said I don't even remember exactly what I said, to be honest but her response to me was that's not God's plan for you. You will never be married, you will never have children, you will never be loved like that, you will never know love like that. Because that is not God's plan.
Speaker 2:So I raised my hand because there's a little delay in hearing you, but I just want to clarify. So this person that you looked up to, that you admired, that you wanted your life to be like, is the one that said this to you.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:She totally spoke death over you.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:But as a 15-year-old you would have had no way of knowing that no.
Speaker 3:I didn't.
Speaker 2:So you totally believe that what she said was from God.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness. I wonder you know how often that happens in church. I really wonder how often something like that happens. But anyways, go on. That's awful.
Speaker 3:I think it happens more than what we realized, or it used to happen. I feel like people spoke more freely in generations past than they do now. Um, but yeah, you will never be loved, you will never have kids, you will never get married, you'll never know love like that, and it broke my heart. Um, and I just felt defeated. Um, there is nothing more than I have ever wanted in my life as to be a wife and a mother. I have felt since early on a very strong call to love, and knowing God is love and God's love. I just couldn't imagine Him giving me this and then saying, oh, but you can't have it, it's not for you.
Speaker 3:But, because of who this person was in my life. I took it and I carried it with me for a long time. I used to say I put it on like a jacket. Every day I'd just pick it right back up and put it on.
Speaker 2:Did you talk to anyone about it? Did you tell anybody?
Speaker 3:No, I didn't.
Speaker 2:You didn't talk to your mom or your pastor. No who was the youth leaders at that time.
Speaker 3:Your pastor, who was the youth leaders at that time? The youth leaders at that time, I think we were in a transition. It was, I think, right before, brother and Sister. Cain came, and so I think it was kind of a transitional period. But no, I didn't share that with anybody because I was embarrassed about it. I was ashamed of it.
Speaker 3:What is wrong with me that God is going to not give me the desires of my heart? Because that's there. And so there has to be something wrong with me because that's not God's plan for my life. So sorry, it's difficult. Still, it was really. It was hard. It was hard to go through, you know, the rest of my teenage years. Of course I did it. You know, I could put on a smile and I could, you know, go through the motions and I loved the Lord and so I just accepted it at some point. You know, god, if that's not your will for me, okay, show me what is. And so I wasn't interested in dating after that. I wasn't interested in. You know, I always made comments, kind of just to fit in, but you know, deep down I didn't. I didn't present myself that way, I wasn't. I knew that that wasn't God's plan for me. I wasn't. I knew that that wasn't God's plan for me.
Speaker 1:So I just found other things to do, you believed that it wasn't.
Speaker 3:Right, right. I believed that that was not God's plan, so I just didn't entertain it in my heart from then on. And it was painful, and so I went through high school and after high school I did a year at college, at COS, and then I went off to Bible college and I loved Bible college. It was such a wonderful experience and that's a testimony in itself. God spoke to me in Bible college and told me that I would live in Illinois and I had no, I didn't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I didn't know anybody in Illinois. I had no desire to come to Illinois, so that's a whole separate testimony. But God was very clear with it. And it's funny because I shared it with one of my friends from Bible college and then when I met my husband I was like and he lives in Illinois, and you know. So it kind of brought everything full circle and together. But while I was at Bible college when did you go to Bible college?
Speaker 3:I went to Christian Life College Okay, in Stockton, in Stockton, to Christian Life College in Stockton, and I loved it. I got involved with things there and in helping daughter work churches and, you know again, music ministry and wherever the Lord would use me. That's where I wanted to be. But again, I still carried the weight of this jacket, of this burden that I wasn't letting anybody else in or anybody else see.
Speaker 3:And after my first year of Bible college, my family was going through some things and so I came home to be with my family. My family was going through some things and so I came home to be with my family and I struggled a lot with it. And it was then that I began to struggle with the standards and the you know, all of the things that go along with it, even though I had a walk with God. Still, I just didn't understand it completely and I didn't necessarily agree with the way things were being presented to me. Not that they were incorrect, just the presentation of them was not appealing and it wasn't something that I wanted anything to do with quite honestly, that I wanted anything to do with quite honestly. So I did it for other people and by the time I was an adult I didn't have to do it for other people anymore because I'm an adult.
Speaker 3:And so, you know, I prayed and I still struggled internally with that, and so it just felt like I was just, you know, putting more weight on, and I wound up going back to Bible college for about six months and while I was there my life just completely changed. That weight became too much and I didn't know how to give it to God and not pick it back up, because that had become such a huge part of my identity and what I thought of myself. I didn't know how to just leave that at the altar. And so I became friends with people who weren't doing godly things and who were making other choices. And, you know, I followed suit.
Speaker 3:And so I wound up backsliding out of Bible college and I was supposed to sing at a service one night and I had been, you know, just running wild before that. And when I got up on the platform, you know, of course I'm frantically calling my friends to see if they'll switch nights with me so I don't have to get up and sing right after. I know that I've done all of these wrong things and nobody could do it. And so I got up there on that platform and I looked around and it was an amazing service and God was moving and there are people at the altar weeping and there are people at the altar weeping and I just couldn't do it. I could not be a hypocrite, I could not. I knew that I needed to be on the other side of that platform at the altar and I wasn't, and so I put my microphone down and I walked off the platform and never walked back up there. I did.
Speaker 2:I just want to interject really quick. I just want to say that that is. I love that you did that. I love that you recognize the godly conviction, because that's purity. I think that was the purity of your heart towards the Lord and I think you did the right thing from a heart posture place, you know, and that would have had to be so embarrassing, wondering what someone was going to think, what it's going to mean for you for school to just walk off. But, Tamara, I think the fact that you honored what was right in that moment was really important because you were doing it between you and the Lord.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, thank you, it was not easy and it was embarrassing. Thank you, it was not easy and it was embarrassing. I always wanted to remain close to God, even when I wasn't in church and when I wasn't doing things that were right. I didn't ever want to go too far where I couldn't feel that and I didn't want to lose that. And so for me at that moment, walking away was the best thing I could do. And I walked off that platform and I walked into the prayer room that was at the back of the church and I had a conversation with God and just laid it all out and I said your way hurts and I don't want to hurt anymore. And I said your way hurts and I don't want to hurt anymore, and I don't know how to give it up to you. I don't know how not to let it down, just leave it alone. So I'm going to walk away and I'm going to try it my way, because your way is too hard, and so it was a very conscious decision.
Speaker 3:It wasn't something that I slipped into, or you know, I made a lot of really bad decisions while I was gone, and that was the first one was walking away. When I walked out of that prayer room, I had a friend stop me on the way out and ask me if I was okay and I said, yeah, I'm okay, I'm just gonna go for now. And that's the way I said it is. I'm gonna go for now.
Speaker 3:I always felt like in my heart I would come back, and I was backslidden for probably eight to ten years and I, from the beginning, I always felt like I would be back. So the next day I withdrew from school and I you know, I stayed with friends or you know, wherever I could until I could get my head together. You know, leaving a dorm room in a school where you're safe and protected and you have everything at your fingertips, to being completely on your own in a big city like Stockton wasn't easy by any means. But I had friends who were very gracious and let me stay and unfortunately I guess I could say it that way is those friends. Most of them were backsliders as well.
Speaker 2:So it seems, seems to go that way. Did you right away, the next day, leave college? You know give your notice and check out of college.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2:And when you what? Did you tell your mom and dad as to the reason that you were making the decision?
Speaker 3:I don't remember the reason I gave them. Honestly, I remember a couple weeks before that happened I knew that I was drifting and so I sought counsel from somebody there and the response I got was I don't have time. And so my perception of that was well, if you don't have time, then it's not that important. And so when I went back to withdraw from school and I had to explain to this person why I was leaving, they tried to counsel me through it, but I had just put up a brick wall and you didn't have time for me. Two weeks ago, when I came to you wanting the help I no longer want your help because I'm going to do this my way now and I just instantly my heart became hardened and I didn't want anything to do with it and I packed up my stuff and I left up my stuff and I left, and so that began kind of my downwards spiral. Some of my very best friends were in the gay community and, even though that wasn't my lifestyle choice, that was Say that again, say that again.
Speaker 2:It cut out.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, sorry, Some of my best friends that I drifted towards were my friends in the gay community, and, even though that wasn't my lifestyle choice, they were all ones who had felt rejected and who had felt unloved and who had felt like they would never receive that kind of love. And so that's kind of where I gravitated towards, I guess I can say. I think we were all seeking just, I mean, we were all seeking pure love, connection, connection, you know, a place to belong? Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. And so I sorry, I, you know started drinking, started partying, partying. I met my first husband in San Francisco and we partied, we drank all the time. I became an alcoholic and I would drink six days a week, easy, and drugs, pills, whatever you know fun thing we could get our hands on at the time. And so I knew that my life was off track. I knew my life was off, but I was having a good time, I was enjoying it, I wasn't getting in any trouble, I wasn't, you know, I still held a job, I was still responsible, I still, you know, did the, you know the things that you do as an adult, but I was able to enjoy being an adult, if I can say it that way. And I dove in headfirst into everything. And my first husband and I we were. And before I get into that, I do want to say like these are all my choices, I get into that. I do want to say like these are all my choices. So none of this is a reflection of, you know, things that were pushed on me. I made my own choices and so anyway, like I said, we just dove headfirst into alcoholism.
Speaker 3:He was already an alcoholic when I met him. He came from a family of alcoholism. You know, as he was growing up, his parents owned a bar and so he grew up in that environment. So, for somebody who's never been in church and didn't understand anything, you know he's an atheist or an agnostic, but if you asked him, he't tell you he's atheist. And so, going from being oneness, apostolic, pentecostal to complete opposite, you know spectrum, and he even asked me along the way are you sure this is the life you want? Are you sure that you're ready to give everything up? And at that point I was because, like I said, I was having a good time. And so, as with using drugs and alcohol, a lot of irresponsible decisions get made and we moved around a lot because there's no stability. Now there's no. He he didn't. He worked for his dad. His dad owned a business, a different business other than the bar, and he worked for his dad quite a bit. But for me there was no stability.
Speaker 3:As much as I wanted it, as much as I tried for it, we were just kind of like best friends who just partied all the time. And I don't even think that when we got married well, I know we shouldn't have got married we were best friends and neither one of us was going anywhere. So it was kind of like the thing to do. We both thought we were in love and we weren't. We just had fun and drank all the time. And so on my wedding day I'll never forget, my dad was taking.
Speaker 3:We got married at the museum in Hanford and my dad was taking me there. And because I got ready at bed and breakfast there and it was just me and my dad, and my dad said are you sure this is what you want to do? And I said, yeah, I think so. And he goes, are you sure? And we pulled up to a stop sign and he said um, if you go left, you go get married. If we go right, we go to pismo no questions asked. And I told him to turn right and he turned right and then I said no, no, no, turn around, turn around, there's all those people there. And so he turned around and I got married and it was hard.
Speaker 3:I mean, marriage is hard with God sometimes, and so without God marriage is really hard, and especially because at this point there were points in me being lost that I wanted to come back, but I had no support in my home to come back, and so it was very hard to. I'd go to church in the morning and then come home to a husband who was half drunk, you know, and then come home to a husband who was half drunk, and so it was a really hard contrast to live because I couldn't. I knew now that I'm married, because somebody told me that I'm never going to get married, so I'm going to show you and I'm going to get married, but now I'm married and so I have to stay married. But I also want God and I also want to go to church and I also want to give my life back to the Lord. But I couldn't because of what was going on in my home, and so I just embraced it and I got into a really dark place at one point and I was what do you mean?
Speaker 2:you embraced it. You mean you accepted the fact that you're married now and that because your husband was an atheist and he's probably not going to come with you, so did you at that point stop trying to go to church. What do you mean? You embraced it.
Speaker 3:That's exactly what I mean. I just stopped trying At that point. Jeremy and Angela were still really good friends and people that I could count on and I would call them and you know, counsel with them Not really counsel, but just talk to you.
Speaker 3:They're my friends and you know they always encouraged me to come back, and people from the church, you know, always encouraged me. I'd be drunk, walking down the street and they'd pull over just to say hi, and they loved me and they missed me, and you know so it was. I always knew that there was support there. However, I was now married and I knew what that meant in the eyes of God, and so I, like I said, I just embraced it and just decided this was my decision. It wasn't a mistake, it wasn't something I just slipped right into it. You, this was a choice, and now I have to live with the consequences of this choice. And so in doing that, things became really dark for me and I struggled a lot, I started cutting a lot. I started cutting and that I never even knew where that came from or that that was a thing. And so I see it now and I know that it was a spirit. And I know that because, you know, eventually I tried to commit suicide and it was just a dark place.
Speaker 3:And I remember one night being so drunk and feeling sick and not knowing what to do, because now I can't call on God because I've rejected Him twice, and so I can't call on God, because I've rejected him twice and so I can't call on him. And so I laid in bed and I prayed to whatever is listening just take me now, take me out, I'm done. And I fell asleep. And when I woke up, I woke up because I couldn't breathe and I felt like something had their hands around my neck and I looked and it was this dark shadow and I was trying to scream but I couldn't, because I couldn't breathe and that, whatever it was said, I'm here to take you out. And I remember thinking in my brain Jesus, jesus, jesus, you gave it permission.
Speaker 2:I did.
Speaker 3:I did. I was ready until it happened and I did not know at the time that spirits could do that. Obviously, I grew up in a church where we see deliverance and things like that, but I didn't know that physically they could do that. And I was trying to scream. And I was trying to scream Jesus and my husband at the time he was in the living room, husband, at the time he was in the living room and um, he's. He told me, um, that he heard me scream, but he couldn't understand what I was saying.
Speaker 3:But I, when I woke up or when, when I came to I was in a pile on the floor. I wasn't even in my bed anymore. So I felt like whatever this was had picked me up by my neck and um, and it's like I said, I didn't realize that that that could happen. But I, I, I was ready until it had a hold of me, and then I called on Jesus and um. So from then on, um, I don't even know what happened next. I know that it took me a long time before I could sleep and so I started taking a lot of pills to help me sleep and at one point I took a cocktail of like 23 different pills. I had no idea what they were, whose they were, where they came from. Pills I had no idea what they were, whose they were, where they came from. I was at the point in my life where I was done and thankfully, by God's grace, he wasn't done with me.
Speaker 2:Tamira, hold on. I have a couple of questions in that piece. There's still a little to have a couple of questions in that piece. There's still a little. Some of it's getting cut off, so it's like picking up extra words or delayed words. So I just want to ask a couple questions. So you said I took a cocktail of pills. Was that cocktail of pills the night you said you were done, or was this after?
Speaker 3:That was after.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I want to go back to the night that that demon tried to choke you. Before that, you said you were in a really dark place. Had you been having any demonic encounters that you can remember? Like were you? Did you feel evil around? Did you feel there was a presence around? Did you have intrusive thoughts? Did you like, were you experienced things that you just sort of ignored or dismissed as, like I'm just, this must not be real, it's just me thinking these things, or were you really feeling a presence of demonic influence around you before this night happened?
Speaker 3:So I definitely felt the demonic presence. Before this happened, I would go to church and I would just want to scream out. There was something inside of me that just wanted to like, just out of nowhere. And I was able to control myself and not do that, because I didn't want to be that person or look that way or you know whatever, but I just you know. So I knew something was registered yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, looking back, how do you interpret that? Do you interpret that as like um, like oppression, or do you feel like it was internal Um? Because I want to. I want to ask another question. When you decided to marry an atheist, you did that consciously. And when he asked you are you ready to give everything up? What did you think he was asking you at that point?
Speaker 3:Well, at that point he knew the type of life that I had come from. You know the church background. He came to church with me once or twice, so he knew a little bit about my background. I actually met him while I was in Bible college, and so he knew the life that I was stepping out of to be a part of this other life.
Speaker 2:Okay, now, was he a backslider as well?
Speaker 2:You said most of your friends were, but he was just a random guy you met in San Francisco, okay, so the reason I asked that question is I have learned a lot about soul ties and someday I'll have that conversation here.
Speaker 2:But I wonder, because the Bible says that fornication sex, you know, we become one with a person and it is the only thing, it's the only sin that's done within the body. I still don't quite know what all that means from a sin aspect and a spiritual connotation, other than we join together with another person when we do have sex with them. And so I think when we fornicate outside of marriage or have extramarital affairs, we are bringing something into us that doesn't really have legal grounds, right, because both of them are done outside the covenant of marriage, because both of them were done outside the covenant of marriage. So, with you saying, when I went to church I just wanted to scream out, I wonder and I'm thinking this out loud, you can weigh in on this, but I'm wondering if that was part of him, your oneness with him, that was causing that reaction, or if you feel like it was because you said I feel like it was something in me. Did you think that you had a demon at that point? Were you afraid of that?
Speaker 3:No, I was I.
Speaker 3:I've never thought about it like that. I've never thought that I have been demon possessed. I know that some of the places that I hung out were very dark places. Some of those friends that I would hang out with were they practiced Wicca, I believe it's called. I'm not too familiar with it, but I you know, I know I was around things that I shouldn't have been around and I was exposed to things that I shouldn't have been. But I have never thought of the connection like that. And because of the way I grew up, my first husband was also the first person that I ever had sex with, and so that would make sense to me that it works like that, because he was very resistant to anything about Um, and so, yeah, I've never I've never put that that piece together, um, but it makes sense.
Speaker 2:So you were so that night that this happened. This happened in your sleep. You said whatever is out there. So you weren't really praying to God at that point and you were aware that you were not really praying to God at that point, but you were feeling that there was a presence and you were giving it permission to take you right. I want to make sure I understood that correctly. Yeah, I bet at that point you didn't really understand what you were doing no. I didn't power. You were really giving it right correct yeah.
Speaker 3:I did not, um it, it wasn't something that I expected to happen. I just wanted to not be miserable anymore, and I was, I was. I was miserable. I not only physically, spiritually, mentally. I was disappointing my family, and that was huge for me was disappointing my dad.
Speaker 3:That was one of the hardest things that I dealt with was because I knew, and, um, my dad picked me up to take me to church one day and he saw the cuts on my arm and and I always did it where, um, you know, up on the top of my arms or my thigh, where it could be covered with a shirt or, you know, pants or whatever Um, so it wasn't like it was an attention thing.
Speaker 3:I didn't want anybody to know that. That's how I was getting some sort of release. But my dad saw it because I raised my arm and my shirt went up and he asked about it and I said, oh yeah, well, I was just drinking and I stumbled and I hit the wall outside and it was like stucco. Um, I said, I hit the wall and it just it scratched my arm and I covered it and I'll never forget that, because he looked at me like he knew that I was lying, but he wasn't going to question me any further, um, and I think my dad always knew that I would talk to him in my time and I would be truthful with him when I was ready to and at that point I wasn't, I hadn't hit my rock bottom, and so he was just letting me live, live, and he, he knew that. I knew that they were always there, um, and that they were praying, but they had set boundaries and they were letting me make my choices and live the consequences of those choices.
Speaker 2:And um so um so after that, after that night, you called out the name of Jesus. Was there any recognition that he saved you in that moment?
Speaker 3:I think there was. As soon as I got my breath, as soon as I was able to breathe, I said thank you, jesus. And then, like I said, I was crumbled on the floor. I was still feeling drunk, and so I got right back up in bed but I couldn't sleep and I was just. You know, I didn't know how to pray at that point, because I had rejected the Lord, and so I didn't feel like it was fair for me to ask God to help me, because I'd walked away and because I had made the decision and I talked to him about it, and so I didn't feel like it was fair for me to just call him when I needed him. But when I don't need you, you can just sit on the shelf over there, you know, I know that that's not the type of God that we serve, and so I wasn't sure how to go about talking to him about it or how to turn things around Because, like I said, I was still married and I was determined to stay married. Married.
Speaker 2:And I was determined to stay married Because, again, you were determined to stay married because you knew how God felt about marriage. Isn't that ironic? Yeah, I'm pointing this out because I can see, and hopefully you can see when you look back the thread of God all throughout it. You were still very much trying to honor him in your marriage, even though you felt like you couldn't talk to him and that you weren't serving him. There was a piece of you that still was.
Speaker 3:I think I always kind of hoped that you know some way, somehow some, you know, god is going to save him. That way we can go to church together and we can be a family together. And you know, all of the things that I was told that I couldn't have, I would have and it would all be okay. I always kind of hoped that and unfortunately for me it didn't turn out that way. I can't say unfortunately, because the end of my story is wonderful. So, if we fast forward a little bit, I was married for about eight years to my first husband.
Speaker 3:Whatever fix we could get drugs, pill, drugs or not, drugs, sorry, alcohol and pills were, were my vices, I guess. Um, mainly alcohol, um, but um, there came a point when, um, he started to use heroin and that was something that he didn't expose me to. I had no idea At this point. I was going to nursing school and working three jobs to keep a roof over our head in the Moschetto apartment in Visalia and you know there was no time for anything or you know any um anything. There was no quality time because I was studying or I was working or I was at school and I kind of just let him run things and do what he wanted to do, while I was doing what I needed, what I needed to do, what I needed to do, and I was kind of a doormat, you know, just doing whatever he wanted me to do just to make him happy because I had stuff to do. And I had a friend in nursing school who recognized that and I didn't even see it at the time, I was just like, oh well, that's kind of who he is, and my friend was in recovery herself and she saw all the signs and she said you know, you don't have to put up with that, you don't have to deal with that. And so she really instilled in me a voice and some boldness, some boldness, and so I'll forever be grateful for that because it really helped with what was to come.
Speaker 3:When my husband at the time started using heroin he had used heroin for probably four or five months before I knew anything about it he would go behind my back and ask my parents for money and say it was because we didn't have bills. He'd ask his parents for money. So, like you know, just, and I had no idea that these things were going on, and so it was really sad. It makes me sad to think about. You know the hoops that people will jump through.
Speaker 3:And so I found out because we had just moved into an apartment I was working at Folsom Prison at this time and I had asked him to hang a shelf and he said oh well, I have somewhere to go, I will do it when I get back.
Speaker 3:Well, I got really angry because it's not that hard to hang the shelf, so I'll just do it myself. And when I went to his toolbox I found all of his stuff and even though, like I said, I was still drinking and doing pills and stuff, I was not prepared for that, and so I'll never forget my eyes went blurry, looking at it, like is this really what I'm seeing? And when he came home, I said I need to ask you something, and before you lie to me, know that I know. And so we had a very honest conversation about it and I said OK, at this point you've got two choices, because I can't live like this, I can't do that. Choices because I can't live like this, I can't do that. You know all of the other stuff you know, I mean all of the other addictions in my brain were okay, but not that.
Speaker 3:One Couldn't do that and so the choices were rehab or I was leaving, and at first he told me to go and at that point I should have left, but I didn't, because my husband is sick and if I leave him when I need him the most, what kind of wife am I? So I looked at it from that perspective. So I began to lie for him and to cover things up for him and I became part of it, even though I wasn't using and it was hard. And lying to my family was really hard and I hated it. I hated every second of it and he would take my stuff and sell it to drug dealers. I'd have to go buy my stuff back from drug dealers.
Speaker 3:I have walked through some really dark places, physically and emotionally, just trying to help in any way I could, because I knew I had been through nursing school, so I knew physically what it was doing. But also, you know, in our family, our family, somebody in our family had battled that addiction and you know, thankfully they found recovery and they found the Lord, and so God helped them through that. So I knew that God could help and I knew that God could do it, but he was so resistant to it that I couldn't reach him, and so we made the decision you cut out a little bit.
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, that's okay, it's the delay, I think in the decision you cut out a little bit. Oh sorry, that's okay, it's it's the. It's the delay, I think, in the audio. Um, so you became a nurse and then I became a nurse graduate.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so he decided not to go to rehab. And then you started, I guess, becoming really codependent and hiding from him, okay, and then I missed some of the other stuff you said. You knew that God could help, but were you saying he wasn't open to God or that you didn't feel like you could go to God?
Speaker 3:you could go to God. No, he wasn't open to God. So at this point I knew that he could go to God because he had never lived for the Lord before, and so I knew that he could. I still hadn't accepted it for myself that I could just walk right back in and God would accept me with open arms. However, I knew that he could do that. He just didn't want it and so, like you said, I became Sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 2:So do you think that? Did you think at that point you had blasphemed Because you said he could go, because he never had been to God, but you didn't feel like you could? Did you think that you had blasphemed at that point, or you just didn't feel like you didn't feel justified to go back because you'd left?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just felt like it wasn't fair for me to ask God, okay, okay, because it feels like that was changing a little bit, like at first you didn't feel like it was fair, but then you didn't feel like you could. So I was just curious if anything was changing in your thought processes or if it was just you just didn't feel like you could.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just didn't feel like it was right for me to go back to God, because I had cried out to God, you know, before, and, um, you know, like I said, in times of trouble, or you know, when I was sick, or you know things, I had cried out and then turned around and did the same exact thing over again and so, um, you know, I didn't ever want to feel like I was using God, um, and so, um, it was because, like I said, I knew that he could, but it wasn't fair for me because I wasn't ready to give up the drinking and the lifestyle that came along with that. It was fun. And I looked back at one point and remembered Brother Jeremy saying Pentecostals are the worst backsliders, because they fall hard and they fall fast and they go head first, or you know something along those lines. And I remember, even while I was before, I came back to the lord, thinking that like, wow, he was right. He was right, because if I'm going to hell anyway, why not? You know?
Speaker 2:yeah, that that was. That was what I thought too when I was out there. Yeah, which is such a lie from the enemy yes, yeah it is and it's.
Speaker 3:It's a sad lie. It's a sad thing for the enemy to plant that in somebody's mind and in their heart.
Speaker 2:Um so um, because I I've talked to you and a couple others and myself, like the whole time I was away and sounds like the whole time you were away you loved the Lord. You didn't want to be apart from him. You still desired him. You just didn't know how to reconcile the pain, the lie that you believed, but at that time you didn't know that it was a lie and how to live with. Yeah, anyways, it's so wonderful to me when God always just knows that about us. He knew your heart and you were still always trying to honor him the best. You knew how, even though you were drinking, you know, you still thought very well of God. You still sort of knew he loved you and you thought the good things about him, not the bad things, sounds like yeah, I never perceived God as a God who was going to like bang me over the head for doing wrong.
Speaker 3:I knew God is love and that's all I ever wanted was love, and I just went about it completely wrong, wrong. And so when God called me back, it has just been an amazing love story since, because God has truly restored everything that I thought I would never have, and so the testimony with that is and so the testimony with that is, we wound up in Missouri because I figure, okay, out of sight, out of mind, let's get you know around new people, new experiences, away from the drugs and everybody we know here. And when we got to Missouri, it wasn't long after that, he committed a crime and I had to be the one to call the police, because I was afraid that if I didn't, he would wind up killed, and so my thought process was better to be in jail alive than dead, and so when I did that, it was one of the hardest things that I had to do. But after the police left and the dust was starting to clear, I sat on the front porch of what was my cousin's house at the time, and I was smoking a cigarette sitting on the front porch and I was at my point. I just couldn't do it anymore and I looked up and I said God, if you care about me, even just a little bit, I'm ready, please help me.
Speaker 3:I wasn't finished with that cigarette before a church bus pulled up to drop some Sunday school kids off next door. And I knew that was God. I knew, so I walked over and it was a United Pentecostal Church and I walk over and I'm kind of shy and again they didn't know who I was. They didn't know me or anything about me or my background or what I had. Just went through and I just asked are you Pentecostal? And they said yes, and I knew they were. But I didn't know how to open a conversation. And so we started talking and they told me where their church was, there in town, and so I went for the next service and God totally changed my life. God at that point began to restore me. It was a process Addiction for me was deliverance, it was walking away and it wasn't hard for me walking away and it it wasn't hard for me.
Speaker 3:Um, you know I I didn't struggle with um cravings or with you know any is sitting in jail, still with the same mentality, and I knew that I could not live like that anymore. And then I found out I was pregnant and that was it. That was the easiest I'm done ever, because it's no longer about me and it's no longer about you, and I always knew that I wanted to raise children, to love the Lord, and I don't want my kids to miss the ark because of choices that I'm making.
Speaker 3:And so I still stayed married for a time. While I was pregnant, I came back home to California to be with my family and I got counsel from my pastor because, again, I'm married. So I want this to work and I know what the want this to work and, um, I know what the Lord says about marriage and I know, um, what you know. I just I still felt like, if I leave, now, what kind of wife, what good am I as a wife if I leave when he needs me the most and, um, most. And Pastor McPhail, being the wise man that he is, gave me the best advice that I ever took and he said it's easier to say you can't come than it is to say you have to go.
Speaker 2:So if he's going to recover, let him do it somewhere else and then come, but don't let him into your house. Say that again, because it cut out.
Speaker 3:I totally missed the whole few words. Okay, so he said it's easier to say you can't come than it is to say you have to go, and so if he's going to recover, let him recover somewhere else and then come and work on your family, but for now you need to focus on you and your baby and getting your life together and living for the Lord. And that was so wise, because I was so easily manipulated through those years and, like I said, I was a doormat and just you know, I felt guilty Anytime I wanted to make a decision to live for the Lord. I felt guilt because there was this other huge part of my life that wasn't in alignment with that. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm, and so, um, uh, eventually our marriage dissolved. Um, you know it didn't work. Um, it was amicable, it was everything. Um, you know, he went his way, I went my way. There was no fighting. Um, you know, it wasn't ugly, and I'm grateful for that, because it doesn't have to be ugly, it doesn't have to be contentious, and I really feel like God played a part in that for me, on my behalf, that God set those things into motion, because it wasn't easy to walk away.
Speaker 3:And now here I am trying to gain my footing, trying to live for God again. But I'm not a single woman now, I am a mother. I am a single mother now, and so I have to get this right this time. There's no other way around it. And so it was hard.
Speaker 3:But I had really supportive people in my life my family, my friends, the church everybody was always there for me. I jumped right back into ministry and God just completely restored everything that I thought that I could never have and that I had lost. And so I was back in California, for—let's see, carter was born in 15, and I left in 17 or 18. So I was in California for two or three years before I felt the Lord call me back to Missouri, to that small church that I had prayed back through in. And so I went back there and I helped with whatever I could, and I loved it.
Speaker 3:It was hard to be there and be away from family, but I felt like that's where God wanted me, and then just the places that he put me in, the people that he aligned in my life. You know, everything was like check, check, check. This is it. You're on track here. You know everything was like check, check, check. This is it. You're on track here, you know. And so in 2018, I met my husband and we now have three beautiful sons and I have two bonus daughters, and you know, I am a wife and I am a mom and I am very loved. My husband is wonderful. He I know that the Lord had me in mind when he made my husband.
Speaker 2:He um yeah it.
Speaker 3:It makes me feel very special to God and very loved and I know that the lord doesn't play favorites but sometimes. But the life that I have.
Speaker 3:I I kind of feel like that, um, I I'm very, very blessed, um, especially coming out of everything that I did. God totally turned everything around and it hasn't always been easy and it hasn't always been smooth, but that's life. And I know that I had my husband pray with me before this podcast because my nerves, I was so nervous, and so just to be in a home where we can pray openly, where we pray with our children, and where we're raising our children to know and love the Lord is just amazing to me and I'm so grateful because I thought I would never have that and so
Speaker 2:I do feel very, very blessed and I think you know the lord uh, he always had that in mind for you then and we just came in to try to steal it and to kill it, like he does, right and um, and you know it makes me super excited about, because 2018 wasn't that long ago. I think you have so much future in front of you. I'm I'm really excited about now that you found the place that God had always intended for you to be like. What is next? Like? What else does he have for you? Because this the enemy worked really hard to keep you from finding this place with your husband and your family. Ultimately, the place you are with the Lord, because this was his desire for your life, because he placed that in your heart a long time ago.
Speaker 2:So I always look at things like when the enemy works really hard to defeat the purpose of God in someone's life, what does God really have in store for them to use them in the kingdom? You know, because I know that the enemy attacks everybody, but I think he I think he attacks some people a little extra and it usually has to do just from my observation, I don't really know. I think biblically there's precedent, but it's usually because someone has a really divine purpose. We all have a purpose, but you know what I'm saying. There's just some people that the enemy really does try to thwart the purpose of God in their life in a greater measure. As you were talking, I had a few questions. I'm going to forget them right now. When did you start? When did you tell anyone, have you told anyone that the reason for that downhill spiral was because somebody said that to you? When did you tell someone that for the first time?
Speaker 3:Um, I think, um. I think sister Angela was the first person I told that to.
Speaker 2:And that was after you prayed back Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:After yeah, yeah, I don't know that I had told them. We were really close to the Canes as I was growing. You know my teenage years. They came to our church when I was about 17 years old, to right before I graduated high school, right after this happened, and I was pretty close to them the entire time, you know, of course, doing my thing. They never stopped loving me and never stopped praying for me and would always take time for me If I reached out. They didn't push Um, but they knew that I knew better and and so they held firm with their boundaries as well. Um, but I? I don't remember when I opened up about it, but I do remember that she was the first person I opened up to about it.
Speaker 2:Do you remember what she said, or when you started putting the pieces together Like, wow, I really believe something that wasn't God, believe something that wasn't God Like? Did you have that understanding right when you came back to church, or did it take some time for you to put those pieces together?
Speaker 3:No, I think I knew while I was backslidden that that wasn't from God.
Speaker 2:Oh, you did.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't think I knew as a teenager. But you know, when I was in my 20s, um, you know, mid to late 20s, I think I had figured it out. Um, you know, god is love, god will give you the desires of your heart. God's not going to put anything in your heart, that's not of him, if you're diligently seeking him. And so I, I figured that out. Um, while I wasn't living for him because I didn't want to carry it anymore, I was, you know, tired of trying to medicate it, tired of trying to drink it away. I was just, I was tired and I had to figure it out. And at that point, once it was too late and I was too far gone, I realized, oh, I messed up, because that wasn't sound advice, that wasn't a word, that was somebody's opinion.
Speaker 2:And I want to just give a plug right there, because what you just said was the Bible. When you realized that that wasn't God, it was because you knew what the Bible said. God will give you the desires of your heart when your heart is pleasing towards him and he's not going to put anything bad there. And so somewhere along the line, you read your Bible. You knew what the Bible said, and it was the truth of God's word that brought clarity to the lie. So, just for anyone out there who grew up in church, like a lot of us, I didn't read my Bible growing up in church. I've been studying my Bible for the last 30 years but didn't really read it growing up in church. I've been studying my Bible for the last 30 years, but didn't really read it growing up in church.
Speaker 2:And so the word of God is the only thing that is going to help us discern between the true and the false. And, especially as we go down these last days and the way the world is changing and the craziness that's going on, knowing what the Bible says about who God is, about who we are in Christ, about everything that the Bible says, is the only way that we're going to know when it is the enemy speaking to us, or someone else's false word or false testimony, or you know a false prophet who speaks something over you, or just somebody that gives you a word curse. It's so important to know what the truth is of the word of God, so I just wanted to point that out, because you said that, because you knew that, and that's so beautiful to me.
Speaker 3:Even being able to discern, you know. You know, maybe it's not necessarily a bad word, but where is that coming from, you know? Where is that just an opinion of somebody who I think the world of, and they may think very little of me, you know? Or is? Is that something that you know? I should go to my pastor? I should go to my family, I should you know. Or is? Is that something that you know? I should go to my pastor? I should go to my family, I should you know. And I just did it. I had no discernment, I had no direction.
Speaker 2:I just did it Partly, tamara. I think it's because you were pure. Your heart was pure towards the Lord. It was pure towards this person.
Speaker 2:Like you, you really sort of saw everything through rose colored lenses, like we do when we when we're really just trying to do the right thing Right, and so it would never be on your radar to question those things, probably not on your radar to even question God things. Probably not on your radar to even question God. But for anyone that is watching this if it doesn't feel right, talk to someone about it. Don't believe everything someone says to you, no matter what credentials they are, no matter even me people that come to me. I'm a therapist. I have credentials, but that doesn't mean anything if I get it wrong, right. So it doesn't matter who a person is, what titles they might have. If it doesn't feel right, get another opinion, even like if it's a doctor telling you a report.
Speaker 2:Just don't take anybody's word for anything. Go to your pastor, go to your parents, go to someone that you know loves you, and tell them, because the enemy works in secret and he works in the darkness, and what he does to people is he tries to keep it all hidden, and so when you don't talk about it with somebody, he gets to do his dirty work in the dark because nobody can pull you out. So I just I wanted to give a plug there because, I think, that's good.
Speaker 2:And and again, I just you know, and and again I just you know I hate the way that the enemy works against, against kids, against people whose heart is really set on loving god and living for god. It is the enemy's work, it's not nothing. You did wrong and you probably know that today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my husband and I talk about it quite a bit because he was a backslider too, and so he has an amazing story of God's grace and so we talk about it and you know we joke because we have five kids. He has adopted Carter and then we had two together and then he has his two girls, and so we joke. Well, if we would have married, you know, 20 years earlier, we'd be done raising babies, because our youngest, you know I mean they're two and four are the two youngest and it's hard you know, when you're in your forties it's hard to raise littles that little, and so you know we always kind of joke about that.
Speaker 3:But we would not. Also, we wouldn't be the people that we are and come from the experiences that we have. You know we have a burden for helping people through recovery and, you know, for prodigals as well, and so you know we have a lot in common as far as that goes, and the direction that we feel like God is taking us and God is calling us to is really exciting. It's really exciting and, like I said, it hasn't always been easy, and you know, blending families is hard sometimes and there are bumps in the road, but there have been times when I have literally taken my Bible and stood on it and prayed and said, god, I am standing on every promise in this book. I am standing on every promise in this book. I'm standing on every word, every part of it, and help me, help us, help, lead us, guide us, call us, direct us. Whatever your will, make it our will.
Speaker 3:And so I am so grateful for the life I have now um you know I was telling you before the podcast, I don't like looking back before god. You know, while I was gone, you know it. Just that's a place I don't visit very often, but I think it's a place that needs to be visited to be told. And my downhill spiral started because I was hurt in the church. And that happens, it happens, and it happens more than what I think, that we're aware of or than what we recognize. Yeah, so I just wanted to be real from that perspective of it and you know the person who hurt me.
Speaker 3:I have no idea where they are in their life right now. I wish them the best of things. I do still pray for them. I do not harbor any resentment or hard feelings or hurt towards them anymore. For a long time I did and it was really ugly, but I just don't. I've learned to give it all to God and just be grateful for what I have. You know, like I said, I am so grateful for the life I have now my husband, my kids. You know God is so so good, far better than what I deserve for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. I think when God does come and do the healing, he does take it all, like all the unforgiveness and the resentment and the hurt. He just and I feel like it's really supernatural he just supernaturally takes it from us, yeah, and he uses everything. So you're right, like who you are today is a by-product of where you've been, but I think when you, when you really hand it over to God, he makes all things beautiful Right. So I'm excited that you have a burden for backsliders. That's so exciting.
Speaker 2:I really think that God's going to do a work in this arena. You know, because, maybe because I'm talking to backsliders, you know, I feel it, but I can see that so many of us that were out there were really backsliders for the wrong reasons, never because, you know, not always because we were trying to leave God. We just didn't know how to deal with the hurt and the wounds of life. So I feel like God is really doing a work and bringing people back. What would you want to say to the backslider that's out there who might be listening, who hasn't come home, who might struggle with the standards? Because I do hear that a lot from girls, like they don't want to come back and do all the things. I get it, but it's very real. It's such a very real struggle. Or they just don't feel ready or know, or they don't feel worthy what would you say to that backslider that hasn't come home yet?
Speaker 3:To the backslider I would say you were made for more.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that you were made for more. Even if your life isn't a complete mess, like mine was, you were made for more than just walking down the street every day and just walking through life. God has a plan. God created you with a purpose, and it's never too late to come back. It's never too late to come back as far as coming back and following standards and, that being a struggle, I struggled with that too. Don't Just come. Don't struggle with it. Don't struggle with it.
Speaker 3:No one cares Right, Right yeah really it's such a misconception.
Speaker 2:I think that, um, I think the enemy uses that against us, but really no one cares. I don't think anyone's looking. All the self-consciousness that we have felt is coming from our own internal um wrestle that we have, but I'm so glad that you said that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, like you said, a misconception about coming back and not having to be the first thing you do is you got to get your skirt back on and tease your hair up. No, just come back and let Jesus love you. Let Jesus love you the way that he wants to and let him lead you into that.
Speaker 3:Let him do his thing, because it's going to be far better than anything you can do on your own. My mom and I just had a conversation about that as well and how, growing up in church, we always knew that that was the thing to do. And, coming back, I was kind of embarrassed if I'd come in jeans or if I'd come, however, but I really didn't have to be, because there's not that pressure and that weight, and when you're coming back to God, there is no pressure. You just come and let Him love you, and he's going to love you through every step that he wants you to take.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because it isn't. It isn't a heaven or hell issue and I I think that the I think don't. If you don't let that get in the way, god knows how to give you peace about all the things and talk to you about it. And and I think also equally important is that I think the pastors love us way more than probably what we ever realized as kids, and I think there's probably way more acceptance than what we probably felt as kids. We just didn't have a way to understand it or look at it. Correct, yeah, so I love that. Okay, what would you say to the parent who has a kiddo out there, or someone who has a spouse? That's a backslider. What would you say to that person?
Speaker 3:Well, don't be afraid to set the boundaries and set your expectations. Love, always love, give grace, pray. I am a result of praying parents. My mom prayed for me. She would text me all the time that she was praying for me.
Speaker 3:Prayer, get on your knees fast for your kids, but don't be afraid to set those tough boundaries. Because that's what helped me is when my parents finally said okay, enough is enough. We love you, but we're going to be hands off. That's when I started to figure things out on my own and realized oh, wait, a minute. I do need to live for God. I do need I'm not going to be covered under my parents' household anymore. And so, while you're praying for your kids, don't be afraid of a little bit of tough love, and I don't know if that's the right thing to say, the right answer to that question.
Speaker 3:But as a parent myself, you know, I would hope that that's the way that I would approach my children if they have you know if they, if God forbid, if they walk away from the Lord just with grace and love, always love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that you said that, because boundaries are very important. I think, as Christians, it's so easy to become codependent because we worry about the worst case scenario that they're going to end up dead.
Speaker 2:And that is something that you go through when you have a loved one that's not living for God. But Lisa Turkhurst wrote a book that I have used many times. I think it's so helpful for anyone out there who's listening, who has a loved one that's not in church. It's called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, and what I love about this book is it's very Christian based and she uses the metaphor about the Garden of Eden and how God himself set boundaries up, that he placed the tree of life in the center and he also placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil somewhere. We don't know where it was placed, but God had boundaries in order and the book is really about when you really love someone. Setting boundaries is such a kind and gracious thing to do and it's such a shift, because boundary sometimes is a dirty word, you know, for people, but it really. I really highly recommend that book, good Boundaries and Goodbyes by Lisa Turkhurst If you are struggling with someone that you do need to set some boundaries with, because I think it would be really helpful. So I love that you said that and, coming from addiction yourself, you understand how necessary that that is and you can love and be kind and have a boundary all at the same time.
Speaker 2:Yes, and prayer, of course. Prayer is always, always. God's always working through prayer. So, tamara, I know there's probably. I'll go home tonight, as I always do after every interview, and think, oh, I should have asked this, I should have asked that. I would have loved to dug deeper here, but I appreciate what you shared so much and I know I just know it's going to minister to people because I think that's it's your story, but I think it will really resonate in the hearts of others. Um, yeah, so thank you so much for sharing and I hope you can Thank you for.
Speaker 3:thank you for allowing me to share my story. God is far too good for me to not give him the glory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and I hope you can make it back to our church and our town and have us all worship together. That would be so nice. God is doing the work. I believe he's bringing people home. I really do Not just in our community, in our church that would be so nice. God is doing the work. I believe he's bringing people home. I really do Not just in our community, in our church. I do believe he's bringing people home here, but I think just in general he's reuniting people. So thank you so much.
Speaker 3:I really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you, I enjoyed. I really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you, I enjoyed it as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll see you soon, okay.
Speaker 3:All right, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Okay, and thank you for watching. And again, if you guys have a testimony to share, please send us an email, reach out. We would love to hear from you.
Speaker 1:Good night, we are love to hear from you. Good night, visit our website at kathychastaincom. We hope you will tune in for our next episode.
